#clojure log - May 22 2016

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0:47 etiago: any Clojure gurus around to lend me a hand with this? http://pastebin.com/Xq7HksiY why don't I get any output?

0:47 it's part of a larger thing, but I simplified it

0:48 I would just like to print the references to those functions in trigger-cb-vector

0:51 amalloy: for is lazy

0:52 tolstoy: etiago replace "for" with "doseq".

0:54 etiago: tolstoy: seriously? this whole thing was just because 'for' was not evaluating?

0:55 amalloy: tolstoy: so... lazy means it would only evaluate once I would try to use its return value, is that so?

0:55 tolstoy: As amalloy mentioned, `for` returns a lazy sequence, so it won't evaluate until something uses the values in it.

0:55 amalloy: etiago: yes

0:55 etiago: hah, yeah it works now :)

0:55 amalloy: in your -main you create a lazy sequence, and then throw it away

0:56 etiago: thanks tolstoy, amalloy!

0:56 yeah... I haven't got used to lazy evaluation yet, it didn't even cross my mind

0:56 <-- clojure beginner

0:56 tolstoy: Heh. It can be confusing when you type that into the REPL, because it'll work!

0:57 etiago: tolstoy: exactly! I was debugging it and it did work, and in my program it didn't

0:57 tolstoy: There's an implied print in there, which will then "realize" the lazy seq. read-eval-PRINT-loop. ;)

0:58 etiago: and it's one of those "false friends" because I come from a declarative language background where for just... iterates. but 'for' in Clojure is a bit of a different story

0:58 ha yeah :D

1:07 tolstoy: The other gotcha I've seen drive new folks crazy is (println "something") doesn't print the quotes. They think they have a string, but it's a symbol, or the opposite.

1:08 etiago: tolstoy: haven't ran into that before but thanks for the headsup :p

1:29 Gh0stInTheShell: Wait cljs evaluates fractions as floating point and clj evaluates them as ratios?

1:31 dysfun: yes. cljs only has floats

1:31 (because js only has floats)

1:32 TEttinger: doubles?

1:32 dysfun: well, they are doubles

1:32 TEttinger: can you do 1/3 in CLJS? is the numeric tower different?

1:32 ,1/3

1:33 clojurebot: 1/3

1:33 dysfun: there are only doubles in cljs

1:33 so that will come back approximately 0.33

1:33 TEttinger: ouch

1:33 Gh0stInTheShell: ,(defn square_root_three [] (loop [lower 1 upper 2 depth 50] (let [n (/ (+ upper lower) 2)] (if (== depth 0) n (if (< (* n n) 3) (recur n upper (dec depth)) (recur lower n (dec depth)))))))

1:33 clojurebot: #'sandbox/square_root_three

1:33 * dysfun is wondering when we'll have proper integers everywhere on js and cljs will be able to use them

1:34 Gh0stInTheShell: ,(square_root_three)

1:34 clojurebot: 3900231685776981/2251799813685248

1:34 dysfun: cause with proper integers, we can build whatever binary structures we like

1:34 Gh0stInTheShell: ,(double (square_root_three))

1:34 clojurebot: 1.732050807568877

1:34 Gh0stInTheShell: ,(time (double (square_root_three)))

1:34 clojurebot: "Elapsed time: 5.619722 msecs"\n1.732050807568877

1:35 Gh0stInTheShell: ,(time (square_root_three))

1:35 clojurebot: "Elapsed time: 67.226463 msecs"\n3900231685776981/2251799813685248

1:35 Gh0stInTheShell: ,(time (square_root_three))

1:35 clojurebot: "Elapsed time: 6.271845 msecs"\n3900231685776981/2251799813685248

1:35 TEttinger: ha what...

1:35 Gh0stInTheShell: lol

1:35 TEttinger: timing isn't the most precise thing with IRC and printing

1:35 Gh0stInTheShell: :)

2:24 idev: anyone here written a Frege => Clojure compiler?

2:24 I want the type checking of Frege, but CLJS's ability to generate JS code.

2:25 dysfun: i doubt it exists

2:25 justin_smith: as far as I know the only frege compiler is the one that generates java code

2:25 dysfun: core.typed supports cljs

2:25 idev: core.typed is very weird to use in practice (and quite slow the last time I tried it)

2:26 dysfun: yes, but since what you want doesn't exist, i'm giving you alternatives :)

2:26 however, if you just want to generate javascript from a typed language, there are options

2:29 tolstoy: elm? purescript?

2:29 dysfun: elm is fantastic for beginners

2:30 and lots of exciting research coming out of it at the minute

2:30 they have an entire project to improve their error messages

2:30 idev: purescript's compiler is too slow

2:30 and its dependence on bower/node/whatever is a mess

2:30 elm is sorta-kinda-weak FRP

2:30 dysfun: however if i wanted types to build javascript, i'd probably use haste or fay (both haskell)

2:31 idev: fay doesn't support type classes

2:31 dysfun: haste does

2:31 idev: haste I kinda like, quite a bit faster than ghcjs

2:31 dysfun: ghcjs tries to solve a bigger problem

2:31 and because experience is king, i just can't use it yet

2:31 idev: but I'd relaly like server side to have power of jvm

2:31 so I'm looking at clojure and frege

2:32 dysfun: then stop worrying about types

2:32 clojure is the most integrated you are going to get on this

2:32 idev: I'm not smart enough to program without types.

2:32 dysfun: sure you are. if i can do it even though my brain doesn't wake up for several hours after i get out of bed, you can

2:33 ben_vulpes: dysfun: thoughts on typescript?

2:33 dysfun: ben_vulpes: not even interesting.

2:33 ben_vulpes: really! where does it fail?

2:34 dysfun: well for a start it takes in javascript++ and spits out javascript

2:34 you have to like javascript to start with

2:35 tolstoy: If you're going to go types, go advanced types?

2:35 dysfun: yeah, there's no point otherwise

2:36 i don't like type systems as a concept, but when they're there, i'll use them to enforce invariants

2:36 most type systems just make you type a lot

2:36 tolstoy: haha

2:37 dysfun: everything is just a tool

2:38 tolstoy: My biggest problems in code is organization, general architecture.

2:39 If I learn enough to know I have the wrong approach, I'm not sure a sophisticated type system helps.

2:39 dysfun: interesting, that's not a problem i experience except when i'm doing leading edge stuff

2:39 tolstoy: Well, I mean, if I have a big problem, "types" isn't it. It's architecture.

2:40 Which is really a problem of Too Big.

2:40 dysfun: just do what everyone else does and make it postgres' problem

2:41 tolstoy: I don't have a lack of solutions, but better types doesn't ever seem to be one of them.

2:42 dysfun: 99 problems but lack of types aint one?

2:42 tolstoy: Yikes! Clojure Remote vids are not high def!

2:42 ben_vulpes: postgres doesn't do much for my ui complexity.

2:42 dysfun: sure it does, it means every page starts to look like a table

2:43 tolstoy: You all have seen that now ancient parody SQL on Rails?

2:43 dysfun: yup

2:44 tolstoy: Oh, good. It's still on Youtube.

2:44 Website's gone, though. Lots of fun.

2:44 dysfun: should've written it on top of access

2:46 ben_vulpes: there's also the accidentally self-parodic aquameta

2:47 tolstoy: Is it possible to put a library out these days without a Brett Victor style rationale?

2:47 dysfun: what's special about his rationales?

2:51 tolstoy: I don't know. They seem low-key in tone, but high-brow in implication.

2:51 http://blog.aquameta.com/2015/08/28/introducing-aquameta/

2:51 "Software Development Complexity Bottlenecks Human Progress" -> therefore build a whole stack on Postgres. ben_vulpes is right. ;)

2:52 dysfun: wow, there's so much in that page that makes me not want to deploy it

2:52 tolstoy: "We believe that it is a social imperative, arguably one of the greatest demands of our time, to make software development more accessible to everyone."

2:53 dysfun: well i do agree about the social imperative, but i'm not convinced he's gone in the right direction

2:53 tolstoy: Having said that, here's my new UUID lib. ;) Eh. Just snarking for no good reason.

2:53 dysfun: i put in a rationale whenever it's not obvious why the user should give a fuck

2:54 tolstoy: I thought the light-table thing got caught up in the rhetoric a bit, then turned out to be an editor.

2:54 dysfun: have you mixed up some of the talk about eve?

2:54 (which was frankly underwhelming)

2:55 tolstoy: Yeah, there's the rhetoric of it, and the reality.

2:56 dysfun: but i can't fault the spirit they set out with

2:56 tolstoy: LightTable had some of that. I remember thinking it was going to be a whole new way of interacting with Clojure, but....

2:56 dysfun: heh, yes

2:56 turns out that it's a very hard thing to do

2:56 (yes, i've got projects on experimenting...)

2:57 tolstoy: I only complain about over-the-top rhetoric because I so want it to end up being true.

2:57 dysfun: yup. that's why my rationales include notes about when you may not want to use it

2:57 realism.

2:57 tolstoy: Heh. Any thoughts on that Arachne thing?

2:58 dysfun: well i'm impressed he got it funded

2:59 but you know, we already have many http servers, html generation libraries, jdbc interfaces

3:00 i have written three libraries that make jdbc less painful

3:00 for the amount of time he's going to have to give it attention, i'm expecting he'll settle for something activerecord-style

3:00 tolstoy: I'm kinda with yogthos' puzzlement: I just don't see what it adds. Yet another antidote as problematic as the poison it cures?

3:01 dysfun: yes, it's very confusing

3:01 since the amount of time involved for all of that is not that much, it's insane to think he can replace the world

3:01 tolstoy: To me, every db-backed app is just a custom mini-language over JDBC. Just right for the job!

3:02 dysfun: well i'm trying to change that :)

3:02 tolstoy: datalog for rdbms?

3:02 dysfun: maybe one day

3:02 i've tackled the toolchainy parts

3:02 i'm currently procrastinating finishing my sql generation library

3:03 tolstoy: I remember sitting through the Pedestal talk and just being confused.

3:03 dysfun: (clojure data structures, pretty close to the language, designed for behind the scenes use)

3:03 tolstoy: Then react + cljs wrappers came along, and it as all clear (and superceded).

3:03 dysfun: yes, i still don't see the point of either pedestal or that other thing that claims to open up java apis as webservices easily

3:05 tolstoy: On the other hand, I really like Luke's quiescent, though Magnar's PR to update to the latest React has languished for a month.

3:06 * dysfun has gone off react

3:07 tolstoy: Before it came along, I'd settled on a kind of "game loop" for CLJS UIs. Instead of React's render stuff, I just used dommy to do it the hard way.

3:07 It was more about organization for me.

3:08 dysfun: react + textboxes = disaster

3:08 tolstoy: One namespace for updating state. Doesn't matter how crappy it is, it's in that one place. Etc, etc. Here's another for updating the UI.

3:08 dysfun: also if you browse with a lot of tabs open, you can hear when you have react running

3:08 tolstoy: Heh.

3:09 dysfun: or ember. jesus that was slow

3:10 i wonder if we could crowdfund an open source datomic-like

3:10 tolstoy: The most convincing argument I've heard for Full Stack Clojure web stuff is that it provides solutions for stuff you don't have time to master, like auth, security, etc.

3:10 Oh, that would be good.

3:10 dysfun: i could really use some paid work, but who wants to crowdfund someone they've never heard of?

3:11 insamniac: i'll do it!

3:11 tolstoy: If you can put together a prototype, then you might be surprised.

3:11 dysfun: heh

3:11 insamniac: i've got at least 10 bucks

3:11 dysfun: it's tempting

3:11 i would really like the product to exist

3:11 i think a lot of people would really like the product to exist

3:12 and the lack of the existence of it is why a lot of people don't stick with clojure

3:12 tolstoy: Seems like if you know how to implement a persistent map, you're 1/2 the way there. The other 1/2 is datalog.

3:12 dysfun: which is mostly about learning datalog harder

3:12 there are only three datalog implementations on clojure toolbox

3:13 tolstoy: Maybe doesn't even need to be datalog especially.

3:13 dysfun: datalog is pretty cool

3:14 fuck it, gonna play about

3:14 tolstoy: demo could just show EAVT saved to a data store, a transactor and peer, and the kickstarter is for datalog and produtionizing.

3:14 That whole "datoms" thing would be good enough at first. ;)

3:14 dysfun: well i was thinking local peer for the demo

3:16 tolstoy: conceptual transactor, I guess.

3:16 dysfun: yes

3:17 tolstoy: Even storing EAVT in a four column SQL table is really interesting.

3:17 dysfun: yes, i thought about that too

3:17 tolstoy: Enlightening, might be a better word.

3:17 I realized why the queries return just entity ids. Once you get that set back, you can then resolve them. Makes a lot of sense (for simplifying queries).

3:22 dmiles: it'd be nice if something like KnowdgeWorks existed in Clojure

3:23 dysfun: what's that?

3:24 tolstoy: This? http://www.lispworks.com/products/knowledgeworks.html

3:24 dmiles: that yes

3:24 that is actually a datalog env

3:26 * dysfun will investigate

3:26 * dmiles is cloning that datalog env in prolog but skipping out on the SQL for now

3:34 tolstoy: LispWorks hobbyist edition 32bit $500. 64bit, $750.

3:36 dmiles: sadly that is part of why i feel i have to write my own version

3:36 dysfun: this is why i don't use lispworks

3:36 and the smalltalks, some of the cool things are still spendy as well

3:38 tolstoy: IntellJ IDEA is $500 a year, so it's kinda inline with that.

3:38 dmiles: i brought KnowledgeWorks up since that is exactly what we want

3:38 tolstoy: Oh, wait, that's biz users. Individual is $150.

3:38 dmiles: the next ussue though.. is can you do an opensource project with it?

3:38 dysfun: and i wouldn't pay for IntelliJ either

3:39 tolstoy: Yeah, sorry. Just curious about all those prices.

3:39 dysfun: even if you can, would you?

3:39 dmiles: I mean Opensource that you and anyone you meet on the street can do code togehter in

3:39 dysfun: what's the point in opensourcing something built on something most people don't have?

3:39 dmiles: yup exactly

3:39 tolstoy: Ah, because LispWorks isn't just the IDE, it's the actual runtime, right?

3:40 dysfun: the licensing model is practically prehistoric

3:40 dmiles: Right my interest is the KnowlefgeWorkds rules system.. the stuff i want to work on opensourcewise is the rules peopel make

3:40 and the bits of code the rules use

3:41 tolstoy: I suspect they're selling to a prehistoric market.

3:41 dysfun: probably, yes

3:42 tolstoy: dmiles: Sorry, yes, the rules stuff is interesting, but the Big Shiny is distracting. ;)

3:43 dmiles: one fun peice is i am cutting and pasting their docs into my systemsdocumation :P

3:44 (and Cycorps documentation)

3:44 but i am very annoyed i even have to do this phase of recreationg that their stuff

3:45 well annoyed there is not that level of a datalog system out there already

3:47 i am told that there isnt due to the lack of utility and value of it :P

3:47 (hehe)

3:48 or from the other side of that coin is those few companies that possess the power of such a software system hide it for dear life (refering to cycorp)

7:01 Kah0ona: I have a ref, with a boolean. I basically want stuff to happen once that boolean becomes true, and block/park otherwise. I'm new to core.async, which functions should i use here?

7:01 futures?

7:01 also; when said boolean changes to false again, it should stop 'stuff to happen'

7:04 (I want to avoid any form of explicit busy-waiting if possible)

7:05 dysfun: sorry, you're trying to model this ref behaviour in core.async instead?

7:41 dimon_: hi, could any take a look? https://gist.github.com/jjmornim/8bebc673d0094b747ffdc7151fba8325

7:43 dysfun: i commented on it

7:44 dimon_: dysfun: tnx, man

7:44 dysfun: np

7:50 dimon_: dysfun: not working properly

7:50 dysfun: howso?

7:50 oh i see

7:51 fixed

9:10 gour: hello, i'm considering to learn racket and use it for desktop (gui) app. have no experience with either scheme or lisp, but wonder if someone if familiar with both, how does it compare with clojure, especially in regard to writing gui apps? i'm not very fond of java and java apps and did play with haskell in the past so like FP style in general. anyone?

9:21 shiranaihito: gour: well, with Clojure you could use Java's Swing for the GUI. With Racket.. is there anything comparable?

9:22 gour: shiranaihito: iirc, Racket has its own GUI which uses platform's native UI

9:22 shiranaihito: gour: so with OS X it would somehow use Cocoa?

9:23 i have no clue, but it would be surprising if it would be just as "full-fledged" for writing Mac UIs as using Cocoa etc through Apple's own tools

9:23 gour: shiranaihito: here is the info: http://blog.racket-lang.org/2010/12/racket-version-5.html

9:26 shiranaihito: ok, but are there any examples of apps using that

9:28 gour: maybe this: http://docs.racket-lang.org/gui/Windowing_Functions.html#%28part._.System_.Menus%29

9:31 shiranaihito: gour yeah, it looks kind of promising

9:31 but i'm still not sure it's a better choice than clojure

9:31 or.. let's say it's unclear that it would be :)

9:32 gour: shiranaihito: any pro/cons in reagard to racket vs clojure?

9:32 shiranaihito: no clue about racket, but at least clojure looks like a reasonably safe bet

9:32 gour: ok.

9:33 shiranaihito: it depends on your requirements / circumstances too ofc

9:33 gour: shiranaihito: let me explore web site etc.

9:33 shiranaihito: e.g. what exactly do you want to accomplish (and why :p) and would doing something else be a better use of your time anyway :P

9:40 gour: shiranaihito: well in the past i tried with haskell (like FP); but there was too much of monads...otoh, i'd like to have some fun when working on a hobby project, have more type-safe language which is still (relatively) syntactically clean unlike things like e.g. Rust :)

9:40 shiranaihito: :P

9:41 if you're just exploring for fun and to learn a new language, i guess you can just go for it without worrying about the details too much :)

9:42 on the other hand, it would be nice if the language you learn would be suitable for getting stuff done in the real world too, so that your new skills could be applied towards that end later on :)

9:42 .. and in that respect, clojure is a safe bet again :)

9:44 gour: ok, i'll explore it a bit

9:49 dysfun: shiranaihito: Swing isn't going to have a native feeling ui

9:49 shiranaihito: dysfun true, but does he need one?

9:50 dysfun: who knows?

9:50 shiranaihito: for all we know, no one else will ever see his app

9:50 yeah.. so if we don't know, then we don't know that not having a native feeling UI will ever be a problem either, and so it's not all that relevant? :)

9:50 dysfun: but to assume makes an ass out of u and me. oslt.

9:50 shiranaihito: well.. who assumed and what? :P

9:51 dysfun: i'm just saying it's good not to assume that it isn't important

9:51 shiranaihito: but it's good to assume it is? :P

9:51 dysfun: i didn't say that :p

9:52 shiranaihito: well it's an assumption either way and assumptions are bad mmmm'kay? :P

9:52 dysfun: but it is good to assume it's worth mentioning :)

9:52 shiranaihito: it can't be if assumptions are bad! :P

9:52 dysfun: everything is everything else.

9:53 shiranaihito: now we're veering into r/philosophy -territory :P

9:53 dysfun: the parentheses...manifold and fractal...

9:54 shiranaihito: so how do you feel about Redux and the related ecosystem btw?

9:54 dysfun: redux?

9:54 shiranaihito: oh.. you've been spared.. :D

9:54 ok, nevermind :P

9:54 dysfun: i assume you're not talking of the only thing i know by that name

9:54 shiranaihito: (it's a "state management library" for javascript etc)

9:54 oh? just messing with me or something?

9:55 dysfun: well i think we can safely assume i don't like it even without reading it

9:55 shiranaihito: well, you managed to confuse me with that mysterious comment.. care to elaborate?

9:55 dysfun: first comment: the only product i know called redux is an internal product at a company

9:56 shiranaihito: oh ok

9:56 it's not that then :)

9:56 dysfun: anyway, i'll save reading it by assuming it's

9:56 shiranaihito: https://github.com/reactjs/redux

9:56 dysfun: as bad as any other javasscript thing

9:56 shiranaihito: this one gives you "predictable state" :)

9:56 :P

9:56 dysfun: no it doesn't. it's clearly linked to react

9:56 shiranaihito: you're disappointed with javascript thingies? :p

9:57 react is actually a good thing, btw

9:57 redux i'm not sure about, but it's got some neat ideas in it

9:57 dysfun: i think we're going to agree to disagree on this to save time.

9:58 it is a matter of taste, therefore we can both be right

9:58 shiranaihito: disagree on what? react being good?

9:59 dysfun: yes

9:59 shiranaihito: well, i don't think it's just a matter of opinion

9:59 i'm not keen on a (lengthy) debate either, but it would be interesting to hear about your views on react

9:59 like.. why is it bad? :P

10:01 jonaskoelker: I'm not intuiting the semantics of closures properly, see http://paste.debian.net/693856/ -- can someone explain or point me to a way of understanding what's happening?

10:01 (damn state)

10:02 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: why defn on line 4?

10:02 jonaskoelker: justin_smith: the real code involves mutually recursive functions (via post-delay on android). I'm not sure defn is necessary, but I would like to name my things

10:03 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: what's your question here?

10:04 jonaskoelker: "what's the minimal subset of the operational semantics of clojure which explains the difference in behavior?"

10:04 (... "between using defn and using fn")

10:04 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: oh, it doesn't work because you create foo twice - and the same foo is called by (f) or (g)

10:05 jonaskoelker: so this isn't about clojure, it's about the behavior of vars

10:05 defn returns a var, when you call a var, it's latest value is looked up and called

10:05 so it always calls the most recent foo

10:05 this difference has nothing to do with closures, it's just about what vars do

10:06 jonaskoelker: let me try and express that in my own words: counter has a scope, which the evaluation of (defn foo) mutates. On the second evaluation of (defn foo), the closure over the first atom becomes garbage.

10:06 justin_smith: if you did (def f @(counter)) (def g @(counter)) then you would see your expected behavior (but why use defn and create vars?)

10:06 jonaskoelker: no

10:06 vars are a mutable container, calling defn changes the contents

10:06 that's it

10:07 you aren't using the function directly, because you do not deref the var, so you always get the latest var contents

10:07 defn foo doesn't mutate register, it just mutates foo (and the new foo points to a different register)

10:08 jonaskoelker: so... is there an implicit global/per-function/... map of names to vars?

10:08 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: not implicit, explict

10:08 jonaskoelker: there's some context to that explanation which I probably don't (fully) know yet

10:08 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: vars are mutable globally accessible containers, that is their job

10:09 if you don't want that, don't call defn inside another defn

10:10 jonaskoelker: I see, if I (eval foo) before (def f ...) it doesn't name-error

10:10 that is... interesting

10:10 justin_smith: right, the compiler creates foo when you define counter

10:10 because vars are not for locals

10:10 jonaskoelker: so, what's the proper way to do named local functions?

10:10 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: let, or letfn

10:11 jonaskoelker: I see

10:11 justin_smith: letfn allows mutual recursion, so I am guessing that is the one you want

10:12 jonaskoelker: Is (defn bar ...) different from scheme's (define (bar ...))?

10:12 I guess so too :)

10:12 justin_smith: yes, it is, because define in scheme is capable of creating locals

10:13 defn is not

10:13 jonaskoelker: I'll try to (assoc brain (not-predictive sicp-examples clojure)) ;-)

10:13 justin_smith: heh

10:14 jonaskoelker: I'll probably prefer assoc!, but yeah :D

10:15 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: another thing that might help - after running your example, (= f g) returns true

10:15 (since they both point to the same var object - no two functions are ever equal in clojure)

10:16 jonaskoelker: that is unsurprising now that you mention it and I have though about it for 30 seconds ;)

10:18 btw, my question having been answered, about "so this isn't about clojure, it's about the behavior of vars" -- when & how would you use vars outside clojure?

10:18 I guess you *can* via Java interop, but... why? What benefits do they provide, and at what cost?

10:18 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: I meant not about closures but about vars

10:19 jonaskoelker: oh :)

10:19 eajy typo ;)

10:19 justin_smith: java interop is used for the same reason you would use c ffi in scheme - to access a huge ecosystem of existing libraries

10:19 so we don't need to make things from scratch

10:20 jonaskoelker: I get that. I meant using clojure vars from java (using java interop in the probably less used direction)

10:20 justin_smith: well, if you want to access clojure values from java, you are going to need to access them via vars (even the function that returns a vale is in a var before you call it)

10:21 *value

10:23 jonaskoelker: I see. So do namespaces have something like a Map<String, ClojureVar> baked into them?

10:23 (or just Var for short, I guess)

10:23 justin_smith: symbol/var yes

10:23 jonaskoelker: "symbol/var"?

10:23 justin_smith: not string to var, symbol to var

10:23 jonaskoelker: ah

10:24 Map<texty-thing, Var> ;)

10:24 justin_smith: ,(ns-interns *ns*) ; you can access the map

10:24 clojurebot: {}

10:24 justin_smith: ,(defn f [])

10:24 clojurebot: #'sandbox/f

10:24 justin_smith: ,(ns-interns *ns*)

10:24 clojurebot: {f #'sandbox/f}

10:24 jonaskoelker: ,(f)

10:24 clojurebot: nil

10:25 jonaskoelker: I got confused about , being unquasiquote(?) versus whitespace for a second :D

10:25 justin_smith: ahh, right

10:25 jonaskoelker: neatly, copy-pasting ",my-form-goes-here" to clojure --repl works as expected :)

10:26 justin_smith: ,,,,,,(+,,,,,1,,,,1,,,,),,,,, ; don't do this in real code

10:26 clojurebot: 2

10:26 jonaskoelker: whaa-eee? :(

10:26 why would you *do* that?

10:26 :D

10:26 justin_smith: it's whitespace, that's all - just a very silly way to demonstrate that fact

10:26 jonaskoelker: I understand that much.

10:27 editor configuration: indent with tabs, spaces or commas? :D

10:28 now that I have your ear, what's the difference between strings, keywords and symbols (under the hood)?

10:29 justin_smith: keywords are self-evaluating, keywords and symbols are interned, keywords and symbols invoke get when used as a function

10:29 and symbols are resolvable

10:29 that's the major stuff at least

10:29 amalloy: symbols don't necessarily have pointer equality semantics, which is what's usually meant by interned

10:30 justin_smith: amalloy: oh! I thought they were interned in clojure like keywords are

10:30 amalloy: ,(identical? 'a 'a)

10:30 clojurebot: false

10:30 jonaskoelker: o.O

10:30 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: that just means they are equal, but not the same object in memory

10:31 amalloy: they can't be, because of metadata

10:31 justin_smith: ahh! of course, that makes sense now, thanks

10:32 jonaskoelker: ,(count (take-while identity (map identical? (iterate inc 0) (iterate inc 0)))) ; is that java.lang.Integer keeping the small ones identical, kinda' sorta' like what python does but in a different way?

10:32 clojurebot: 128

10:33 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: iirc yes, the small ones are interned basically, the larger ones not - but amalloy is more likely to have the real dirt on that one than I

10:33 amalloy: i dunno about python, but yes

10:33 jonaskoelker: ISTR there being at *least* a java.lang.Integer.ZERO and .ONE, but I don't know about .ONE_HUNDRED_AND_TWENTY_SEVEN

10:34 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: this leads to a really weird stupid-jvm-trick where you can mutate 5 so it is equal to 4

10:34 jonaskoelker: mutable ints are the best ints :p

10:34 justin_smith: and braek just about everything in the process, of course

10:35 jonaskoelker: introducing a whole new *class* of off-by-one errors

10:35 ;)

10:36 I like how in python, True and False are just bound names in the builtins namespace, so you can say "True, False = False, True" and all hell breaks loose.

10:36 but mutating objects is even more evil

10:36 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: there's a weird one in the jvm

10:36 ,(if (Boolean. "false") :yes :no)

10:36 clojurebot: :yes

10:36 jonaskoelker: wat

10:37 justin_smith: the answer here being, "never use the Boolean constructor"

10:37 jonaskoelker: ,(boolean (Boolean. "false"))

10:37 clojurebot: false

10:37 jonaskoelker: ,(boolean (Boolean. "False"))

10:37 clojurebot: false

10:37 jonaskoelker: WHAT?!

10:37 justin_smith: ,(= (Boolean, "false") (boolean (Boolean. "false")))

10:37 clojurebot: #error {\n :cause "Expecting var, but Boolean is mapped to class java.lang.Boolean"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Expecting var, but Boolean is mapped to class java.lang.Boolean, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyzeSeq "Compiler.java" 6875]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Expe...

10:37 justin_smith: ,(= (Boolean. "false") (boolean (Boolean. "false")))

10:37 clojurebot: true

10:38 justin_smith: none of it makes sense

10:38 jonaskoelker: ,(if (boolean (Boolean. "false")) :yes :no)

10:38 clojurebot: :no

10:38 jonaskoelker: :o

10:38 *!@^&#

10:38 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: so they are equal, but behave differently in an if check

10:38 jonaskoelker: @^#&$*!@$!!!!!

10:39 justin_smith: anyway, these things are actually refreshingly rare - but still totally daft

10:39 jonaskoelker: help, I lost my sanity. Have you seen it lately?

10:39 okay, two steps back. What is going on there?

10:40 ,(= Boolean/FALSE (Boolean. "false"))

10:40 clojurebot: true

10:40 jonaskoelker: ,(.equals Boolean/FALSE (Boolean. "false"))

10:40 clojurebot: true

10:40 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: boolean casts to an instance of Boolean, if only checks object identity, = checks value and not just object identity

10:41 jonaskoelker: so clojure-if is "if (val != null && val != Boolean.FALSE)" ?

10:41 justin_smith: wait - I can express that fir part more clearly - the function boolean casts to one of the two canonical Boolean instances, the ones that are checked by identity

10:42 jonaskoelker: yeah, that sounds about right - looking it up because now I am curious

10:44 jonaskoelker: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L2696

10:44 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: well look at that, exactly what you suggested

10:45 jonaskoelker: yay, I has a intuition :)

10:48 so... (defn string2bool [s] (-> s Boolean. boolean)) and only ever use that?

10:48 ,(defn string2bool [s] (-> s Boolean. boolean))

10:48 justin_smith: or maybe just never use the constructors

10:48 clojurebot: #'sandbox/string2bool

10:48 jonaskoelker: ,(if (string2bool "false") :f :t))

10:48 clojurebot: :t

10:48 jonaskoelker: wat?

10:49 justin_smith: really one can usually get by with just using the literals, and if using a string you could usually use the reader

10:49 but I guess if you need to turn a string into a boolean, the above makes sense

10:49 jonaskoelker: if it's a string from the user (which they copy-pasted from the interwebs), I'd rather not invoke the reader

10:49 justin_smith: ,(clojure.edn/read-string "false")

10:49 clojurebot: false

10:49 jonaskoelker: ,(if (string2bool "false") :t :f))

10:49 clojurebot: :f

10:50 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: that is what the clojure.edn ns is for

10:50 jonaskoelker: turns out I swapped the keywords I meant

10:50 interesting... I haven't looked at edn much, but my impression is that some thought went into it

10:50 like most clojure things :)

10:51 justin_smith: big picture, clojure.edn only allows constructors that are whitelisted (the defaults are without known side effects) and has no read-eval option to turn on

10:53 jonaskoelker: interesting. This sounds like one of those few places where I would sleep better at night if I had a type checker prove the absence of side effects, but meh... even haskell has a cheat function (unsafePerformIO), so...

10:53 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: well, it's only about constructing value objects - it's a specific set of them allowed

10:53 hash-maps, sets, vectors, etc.

10:54 we all hope none of those constructors have side effects, and so far we've not seen evidence of such bugs

10:54 jonaskoelker: yes, I understand, but even so... I like proofs. That means I can be dumb and still do smart things :D

10:55 justin_smith: I think the best evidence that those constructors are side effect free is that our clojure code works? But no proof, right.

10:55 jonaskoelker: agreed

10:55 by the way, is there any kind of library which will let me turn a value from a process calculus into something I can execute?

10:56 I'm contemplating modeling a UI in ccs and exploring the right-and-wrong-ness of my beliefs about the state transition graph.

10:56 justin_smith: well, in a very abstract way that's what core.async is doing (but probably not the literal way you mean)

10:56 but core.async is CSP - I don't know of CCP in clojure

10:57 jonaskoelker: potayto potarto, I hear Wadler says they're morally equivalent

10:57 justin_smith: in fact this is the first I have heard of CCP

10:57 hah, OK

10:57 jonaskoelker: ccp? you mean ccs?

10:58 justin_smith: oh, got all scrambled, sure

10:58 but ccp exists too!

10:58 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304397504006942 hah

10:59 but while core.async implements CSP, it probably isn't the direct calculus tool you are looking for

11:00 jonaskoelker: yeah, summary/paraphrase of what I heard on the net: core.async is based on CSP, but doesn't eval csp expressions

11:01 though... maybe... just like you can eval an arbitrary expression, maybe I could have a small symbolic program with hooks and async-eval it.

11:01 and then put the heavy lifting in the hooks

11:02 it's funny, when I began uni studies in 2004, I was like "C is cool! Python is cool! formal models is bs, and I can manage state perfectly well", and now I'm leaning much more in the other direction

11:03 and I did a startup from right-after-uni (2012) to 2015-sep writing in python, so I was probably still going "python is cool" back then.

11:03 Well, I better go watch https://www.infoq.com/presentations/core-async-clojure :)

11:04 justin_smith: I think most of us end up needing to learn the hard way that state doesn't scale very nicely.

11:04 jonaskoelker: and also https://www.infoq.com/presentations/clojure-core-async

11:05 we also get dumberer as we age, so maybe the truth was less true for us when we were younger

11:05 oh, how I love confounds :-\

11:05 damn you, confounds, for complecting truths!

11:06 or rather, damn you, world, for being so complected :)

11:10 I'm going to listen to Rich and cook food. Nice chatting with you, Justin, and thanks for the help :)

11:16 dysfun: justin_smith: holy crap i just saw your new twitter avatar. you have a beard now

11:17 we can officially let you at the unix system

11:17 justin_smith: it's pretty long actually, I've had it for about 3/2 years

11:27 jonaskoelker: shit, I just shaved. Do I have to use windows now? :(

11:27 dysfun: haha

11:27 justin_smith: you can use BeOS if you want

11:28 OS/2?

11:31 engblom: OS/2 was really amazing for its time. You could format a floppy and still get stuff done while it happened.

11:31 All stuff from MS became really slow as soon as you were writing anything to a floppy

11:31 dysfun: beos too

11:32 engblom: Yep

11:32 dysfun: beos was quite shiny for the time and yet it was fast

11:32 engblom: Sadly neither of them managed to crush the monopoly of MS

11:32 I was also playing a bit with BeOS during those times

11:34 During that time, alternative OS had a big disadvantage: Lack of proper office suite

11:34 ridcully: os/2 hat the lotus stuff

11:34 s/hat/had/

11:34 engblom: Oh, yes they had Lotus

11:35 ridcully: ami word somethingsometing

11:35 engblom: But if you ask me, lotus was terrible

11:37 dysfun: yes it was awful

11:37 really really awful

11:38 engblom: Hmm, apparently staroffice existed for OS/2. Too bad it was so little known during that time.

11:39 ben_vulpes: dysfun tolstoy dmiles: neat thread

11:39 engblom: It was 1998 I for the first time found staroffice. Then I already had begun playing with Linux

11:41 justin_smith: I've survived this far without needing an office suite, I've got high hopes this can continue.

11:42 ben_vulpes: drive is a miserable miserable miserable office replacement

11:43 i never thought that i'd actually miss capital-e excel

11:43 but holy fuck google spreadsheets a pos

11:43 dysfun: excel is actually pretty amazing

11:43 ben_vulpes: apple's numbers idem.

11:43 dysfun: it is almost as though the product owners actually watched power users driving the thing for inspiration!

11:43 dysfun: i can only assume noone who develops openoffice has used excel in a few years

11:44 engblom: justin_smith: It depends on your work. Much can be done in other ways. I have even made several issues of an magazin in LaTeX. Still for some stuff an office suite saves you a lot of time

11:44 ben_vulpes: engblom: like collaborating with normies?

11:46 engblom: ben_vulpes: For example. Yesterday I had to quickly write down a food recipe my wife will use today at a course. It would have taken far longer time in LaTeX. Or if you need to quickly calculate some stuff, a spreadsheet might get you to the result faster than other methods

11:47 ben_vulpes: so true

11:48 and it's so easy to do scenario planning in spreadsheets too

11:48 nightmare to maintain tho

11:49 engblom: I hate how spreadsheets are misused as databases. But they are great for quickly calculating stuff, like total price before talking with a customer

11:49 dysfun: what spreadsheets need is refactoring tools

11:51 engblom: When I was designing an ocarina 3D model, I quckly used a spreadsheet for calculating all frequencies and the inital hole sizes.

11:52 It would have been taking a lot of time to put together a program for the same task.

11:54 ben_vulpes: engblom: cadcam proggy should handle that.

11:55 but if we balk at the 750 for a corporate single user lispworks license, i shudder to think what the response would be to the 8k list price for inventor.

11:55 dysfun: bollocks to that

11:55 ben_vulpes: are there any neat tricks for working with maps with the same key names?

11:56 dysfun: what do you mean?

11:56 ben_vulpes: eg a user map and a topic map in my test ns (representing harness data) both have a "name" key

11:56 so destructuring clobbers.

11:56 dysfun: oh i see what you mean

11:57 justin_smith: ben_vulpes: you can destructure maps without using :keys

11:57 dysfun: you can move to using the map-form destructure instead of :keys

11:57 ben_vulpes: map form destructure

11:57 * ben_vulpes goes to look

11:57 justin_smith: ,(let [{a :a {a' :a} :b} {:a 0 :b {:a 1}}] [a a'])

11:57 clojurebot: [0 1]

11:58 ben_vulpes: aha

11:58 justin_smith: it's like a mirror image

11:58 ben_vulpes: sure

11:59 justin_smith: it can be mixed with :keys too

11:59 ben_vulpes: i'm wondering if it wouldn't be more legible if i pulled keys out in place though

11:59 * ben_vulpes will fiddle

11:59 ben_vulpes: yo dysfun have you ever worked with the pro cadcam packages though?

11:59 justin_smith: ,(let [{a' :a {:keys [a]} :b} {:a 0 :b {:a 1}}] [a a'])

11:59 clojurebot: [1 0]

11:59 dysfun: no

11:59 i have worked with a cheap one

11:59 ben_vulpes: they are *entirely* worth the cost.

11:59 dysfun: it was alright actually

12:00 ben_vulpes: which one?

12:00 dysfun: pro/desktop

12:00 ben_vulpes: and was *everything* parametricizeable?

12:00 dysfun: no, it was cheap and designed for studnets

12:00 ben_vulpes: > creo

12:01 yeah notgreat.winrar

12:01 i was spoiled as a child

12:02 cannot use not-perfect cadcam

12:02 if it takes more than 3 keystrokes to parameterize a thing and link it to another value at the same tree level as i'm working i'm inclined to throw the workstation out a window

12:03 if i want to tie it to a sketch in a dimension in another part i am willing to open the tree

12:03 but by god there better be a tree that goes all the way down to the feature level for every single part

12:03 accessible from the assembly view

12:03 or seriously gtfo

12:03 clojurebot: Huh?

12:03 dysfun: my laptop used to take 45s to get to a repl

12:04 jasonmason: huh

12:04 ben_vulpes: my laptops are on a ~2 year depreciation cycle

12:06 dysfun: mine were when i had money

12:06 justin_smith: this laptop is on year 4, still better specs than a new macbook pro

12:06 ben_vulpes: the depreciation cycle is to avoid giving the irs the impression that i have money

12:06 justin_smith: what do you hack on?

12:07 dysfun: this desktop i'm borrowing is 4 years old but it's fast as

12:07 also i plugged an ssd into it

12:07 justin_smith: system76 bonobo, 32 gigs ram, 8 cores

12:07 dysfun: i have 16GB RAM, 4 hardware cores, 8 virtual cores

12:07 justin_smith: 256gb sd plus a 1tb hd

12:08 ben_vulpes: huh and it linuxes adequately?

12:08 dysfun: i'm actually running freebsd

12:08 justin_smith: ben_vulpes: system76 only ships with linux installed, that's their whole deal

12:08 ben_vulpes: > matte display

12:08 be still my heart

12:08 dysfun: was talking to justin_smith

12:08 dysfun: system76 laptops are just rebadged clevos with ubuntu installed and configured

12:08 justin_smith: yeah, I have the matte display too, it's awesome

12:08 jasonmason: dysfun wat, repl takes 45s to start on that machine?

12:09 dysfun: jasonmason: no, this is the desktop i am borrowing. my almost 3 year old macbook air takes that long

12:09 jasonmason: ah

12:09 ben_vulpes: justin_smith: how much neckbeard flak does it catch for binary crud?

12:09 dysfun: i have to hand it back soon and moving onto a core 2 duo with 8 gigs of ram

12:09 justin_smith: ben_vulpes: you're the first one to ask, but I guess I don't go around in neckbeard circles that much

12:10 dysfun: only one of the system76 laptops doesn't require nvidia binary drivers

12:10 justin_smith: ben_vulpes: but I have been drooling over the new purism machines

12:10 ben_vulpes: not like i give much of a shit, just curious

12:10 dysfun: and the towers?

12:10 dysfun: i have no idea

12:11 justin_smith: in fact a big reason for getting this machine was to have big graphics capabilities (lots of high res displays) with linux, without wanting to kill myself because it's all just set up for me.

12:11 dysfun: oh the first tower i clicked on (ratel pro) comes with option of intel graphics

12:11 ben_vulpes: dysfun: are those open?

12:11 justin_smith: yeah, they have laptops with intel too, I explicitly didn't want intel

12:11 * ben_vulpes has spectacularly nfi

12:11 ben_vulpes: justin_smith: why no intel?

12:12 dysfun: intel is about as open as it gets, which is to say they publish specs

12:12 justin_smith: bad / weak graphics

12:12 dysfun: how often do you actually use graphics that intel couldn't handle?

12:12 justin_smith: not often any more :P

12:12 dysfun: and that's why i go intel

12:13 justin_smith: but the intel boards don't let me run 4 monitors like this one does either

12:13 dysfun: 4 monitors?

12:13 justin_smith: but that might just be circumstantial and not a limitation of on-board intel per se

12:13 dysfun: one does me

12:13 justin_smith: yeah

12:13 dysfun: i would like it to have more resolution though, this is a cheap 1080p display

12:13 ben_vulpes: i could probably settle for two

12:13 justin_smith: or they didn't when I was shopping, or I didn't look hard enough

12:14 ben_vulpes: 1080p gross

12:14 so effectively a portable tower.

12:14 needs a monitor to be useful.

12:14 dysfun: when i am unpoor i am going to buy myself a nice new desktop and a nice 4k monitor

12:15 jasonmason: how well are high ppi displays supported under linux

12:15 ben_vulpes: i'd probably be happy with a meerkat

12:16 dysfun: i imagine they mostly just work provided you have acceptable graphics drivers

12:17 jasonmason: but "just works" being what? tiny letters, with same definition as on lower ppi monitors?

12:18 dysfun: more pixels in the same space. i think you're saying an equivalent

12:19 ben_vulpes: jasonmason: do you want it apple style? where it ships in "old and blind" mode?

12:19 scuse me i mean "large shiny and juicy" mode

12:20 xtreak: https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/cast#example-542692cdc026201cdc326ccd is throwing an error for me. What is the cast syntax?

12:20 ,(cast Integer 1)

12:20 clojurebot: #error {\n :cause "Cannot cast java.lang.Long to java.lang.Integer"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "Cannot cast java.lang.Long to java.lang.Integer"\n :at [java.lang.Class cast "Class.java" 3176]}]\n :trace\n [[java.lang.Class cast "Class.java" 3176]\n [clojure.core$cast invokeStatic "core.clj" 351]\n [clojure.core$cast invoke "core.clj" 346]\n [sandbox$eval25 invo...

12:21 justin_smith: that makes sense, in clojure 1 is a Long not an Integer

12:21 for converting, use int

12:21 ,(int 1)

12:21 clojurebot: 1

12:22 jasonmason: ben_vulpes yeah i much prefer that over font that is too small to be readable

12:22 justin_smith: xtreak: cast in clojure will mostly be for things like nil and when you are using weird APIs, I think

12:22 ,(cast Integer nil)

12:22 clojurebot: nil

12:23 xtreak: Thanks. The docs use the syntax for casting. Guess that example is a little confusing.

12:23 justin_smith: xtreak: also cast doesn't change the type of the input - it just throws an exception if it's the wrong typ

12:24 ,(cast Number 1) ; since Long is a subclass of Number

12:24 clojurebot: 1

12:24 justin_smith: ,(type (cast Number 1))

12:24 clojurebot: java.lang.Long

12:25 justin_smith: xtreak: definitely a documentation bug in that example

12:26 xtreak: Thanks. was trying out the same in the repl :) will raise a pull request. Can I copy over your comments too?

12:26 justin_smith: sure! though we can skip the whole nil / weird APIs one I think, that's not actually what it's about at all

12:28 Morgawr: how would I test if a parameter is an atom, in clojurescript?

12:28 In clojure you can do (instance? clojure.lang.Atom my-param)

12:28 doesn't seem to work in Clojurescript though

12:29 dysfun: well for a start it's called cljs.core.Atom

12:29 in cljs

12:29 Morgawr: ah, that might be it, then

12:29 dysfun: but iirc that won't help you

12:29 try it

12:29 Morgawr: dysfun: seems to have worked, thanks! :)

12:30 dysfun: cool :)

16:00 jonaskoelker: Hi all. I'm trying to build an android project with lein droid doall, and get "No such var: u/update-vals" right after "Compiling cider.nrepl". Does anyone have an idea what's going on?

16:00 That's with "compiling:(cider/nrepl/middleware/util/meta.clj:64:8)" which says "u/update-vals" at l64 c8 but also [cider.nrepl.middleware.util.misc :as u] in the (ns ...) block

16:01 Gh0stInTheShell: jonaskoelker: I don't know, but I'd like to know what you find out. :)

16:01 I'm just getting ready to start trying to use lein droid

16:02 jonaskoelker: I copied a thing from the net with some :aot-exclude-ns, including cider.nrepl; what's up with that?

16:03 if I add #"cider.nrepl.middleware\..+" and #"cider.inlined-deps\..+" to the excludes I copied, things compile fine, but then emacs gets angry when I cider-connect

16:03 saying very hurtful things, like "WARNING: CIDER requires nREPL 0.2.12 (or newer) to work properly" and "WARNING: CIDER's version (0.13.0-snapshot) does not match cider-nrepl's version (nil). Things will break!"

16:04 which makes me a sad panda

16:04 Gh0stInTheShell: lol

16:10 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: in general, the clojure side deps and the elisp lib must agree, but until some very recent versions, you have to make them match by hand

16:12 jonaskoelker: CIDER's good and bad points are the same thing: it prioritizes features over stability - when I was using it every in-place update would break my install and I had to do a clean slate to make it work again (including gettign rid of any elc files) because the abi lacked backward compatibility

16:52 jonaskoelker: so... do I just $ rm ~/.emacs.d/elpa/cider-*/*.elc?

16:52 justin_smith: and make sure the versions match, that should do it

16:53 the lein plugin and elisp versions, that is

17:02 jonaskoelker: are 0.13.0-SNAPSHOT and 0.13.0-snapshot different?

17:04 oh well, the lower case version doesn't resolve when I build. I still get nil as the cider-nrepl version

17:04 but I put cider.nrepl in my :aot-exclude-ns -- when I don't, I get compile errors

17:05 Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: u/update-vals, compiling:(cider/nrepl/middleware/util/meta.clj:64:8)

17:05 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: the lower case is a typo

17:05 jonaskoelker: oh, I already said that

17:05 in the 'WARNING: [...] bit', yes?

17:05 justin_smith: you shouldn't have cider in normal deps, it should be a dev-only thing (which is implicitly no-aot)

17:05 yeah, typo in the warning

17:06 jonaskoelker: but nrepl should be in deps?

17:20 In *nrepl-messages localhost* (:9999 fwd to :9999 on my phone) I see this: http://paste.debian.net/694803/

17:21 so apparently, it would appear that maybe I'm running nrepl 0.2.10 on my phone?

17:51 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: I said normal deps - eg. cider stuff (and most of the time even nrepl itself) should be specified for the :dev or :repl profile only, and ideally it's added in your personal profiles.clj so that your collaborators don't have to live with your dev tooling decisions

17:52 and things in :dev or :repl are not aot compiled for lein run or lein uberjar

17:58 jonaskoelker: profiles @ http://paste.debian.net/694839/ and project @ http://paste.debian.net/694840/ -- do they look right?

18:00 justin_smith: I would typically put things like piggieback and tools.nrepl and cider-nrepl in :dev or :repl, not :user - I forget whether :user ends up in aot, but :dev should be ignored during aot

18:03 jonaskoelker: done. I'm building with 'lein droid doall', which doesn't include :user

18:03 justin_smith: oh, OK

18:04 jonaskoelker: other than that, it looks good?

18:04 justin_smith: yeah, looks fine

18:05 jonaskoelker: do you have an idea why I see >> version-string "0.2.10" << in my nrepl traffic?

18:06 I'm thinking _something_ is putting a bad version of nrepl on my phone, but what?

18:06 I even removed 0.2.10 from ~/.m2/..., but I still get 0.2.10

18:06 justin_smith: you could look at `lein deps :tree' and check out the version conflicts

18:06 removing or adding to m2 directly will never effect your deps when using lein

18:06 if lein doesn't find the version it thinks you need, it will download it

18:07 (or simply fail and say the version doesn't exist if that doesn't work)

18:07 jonaskoelker: http://paste.debian.net/694851/

18:07 0.2.10 didn't come back, so I infer that lein didn't re-download it

18:08 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: lein doesn't check m2 to decide what to use

18:08 jonaskoelker: right, put it puts its downloads there, yes?

18:08 justin_smith: something might have fixed your issue, but I promise deleting the file did not do it

18:08 right, it does

18:08 I guess I misunderstood your point there

18:09 jonaskoelker: depends, it wasn't clear (I think) from "I even removed .." but perhaps from later on :)

18:09 err, my issue isn't fixed

18:11 do you know how to trace which nrepl goes into the shipped blob (of .apk flavor)?

18:11 justin_smith: there's lein deps :tree to see how lein picked each dep to use

18:11 and another version for plugin deps (I forget how that one works)

18:13 jonaskoelker: oh this is fun, I just did a "lein clean;lein droid doall" and now I get different errors :(

18:13 justin_smith: ugh, caching sucks

18:14 jonaskoelker: lein deps :plugin-tree is the one you mean, I take it

18:14 justin_smith: that's the one

18:18 jonaskoelker: Now I face "Caused by: com.android.dx.cf.iface.ParseException: bad class file magic (cafebabe) or version (0034.0000)"

18:18 do you happen to know the fixing spell on the top of your head?

18:19 justin_smith: I don't know the android stack stuff, sorry to say

18:19 but "cafebabe" sounds like a placeholder that didn't get properly filled in (I would use "deadbeef")

18:19 jonaskoelker: I think it's plain old java stuff; "cafebabe" is the magic number (see file(1)) for .class

18:20 justin_smith: I know what magic numbers are

18:20 jonaskoelker: *thumbs up*

18:20 justin_smith: I am saying, if I was picking a placeholder... I would pick something like that

18:20 but really, I don't know that error, sorry

18:21 jonaskoelker: what I'm saying is: I'm fairly confident that cafebabe isn't a poison pattern, it's the right value

18:22 justin_smith: oh, cafebabe is the standard for class files, hah

18:22 never mind then.

18:26 jonaskoelker: perhaps you pulled in compiled stuff that is incompatible with your java runtime version?

18:28 jonaskoelker: yeees. It appears cider is java 1.7+ and I was building for java 1.6

18:29 justin_smith: I'd guess more likely the android stuff rather than cider? but yeah sounds right

18:29 jonaskoelker: when I remove the cider :plugin it all works, except of course for cider-connect :\

18:30 Oh well, time for some experimentation with flipping switches and stuff :)

18:34 doing ":plugins [#_[cider/cider-nrepl "0.13.0-SNAPSHOT"]]" in :android-user seems to have done the trick

18:34 in that it builds and runs and I can connect to the repl

18:34 but still, version-string "0.2.10" and ugly warnings

18:35 justin_smith: ahh, so it's a fundamental incompatibility between the android and cider stuff

18:36 jonaskoelker: I'm not sure. It looks to me like a wrong version of a dependency gets pulled out of nowhere and baked into my .apk

18:37 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: could be bad packaging, a dep that ships with some of its deps built in

18:37 and thus forcing a bad version on you

18:37 jonaskoelker: can I grep through that somehow, somewhere?

18:38 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: you could maybe look at where the dep is in your classpath, at runtime

18:38 jonaskoelker: $ find ~/.m2 -name jar -exec jar xvf '{}' | grep nrepl

18:38 ^_^

18:38 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: if it's the problem I am describing, it would be a class file or jar baked into a jar you are using

18:38 jonaskoelker: so if you looked for the classpath where that dep came in, you would see which jar it was in...

18:39 jonaskoelker: my understanding of .apk is that it's everything bundled up. I don't think I have an nrepl on my phone separate from the one I push

18:39 justin_smith: right, you want to bundle all your things

18:39 what I am saying is that a lib that is badly packaged can force you to use a bad version by bundling a dep

18:39 jonaskoelker: I understand that...

18:40 justin_smith: OK

18:40 jonaskoelker: here's a snippet from my "DEBUG=1 lein droid doall" output http://paste.debian.net/694914/

18:40 it seems to point at nrepl 0.2.12

18:40 but I should probably walk down dependecies

18:41 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: you can also get the path where a dep is found at runtime in the repl - I'm looking it up now

18:42 ,(.getResource clojure.lang.Atom "") ; do this with a class that ships with nrepl

18:42 clojurebot: nil

18:43 justin_smith: well in a repl you would get the actual resource

18:43 must be a security thing on clojurebot

18:46 jonaskoelker: user=> (.getResource (class clojure.tools.nrepl.server/start-server) "")

18:46 jonaskoelker: #object[java.net.URL 0x51edba41 "jar:file:/media/justin/806084F16084EEEA/m2/repository/org/clojure/tools.nrepl/0.2.10/tools.nrepl-0.2.10.jar!/clojure/tools/nrepl/"]

18:47 calligraffiti: t

18:47 t

18:48 jonaskoelker: justin_smith: (.getResource (class clojure.tools.nrepl.server/start-server) "") => nil

18:48 justin_smith: curiouser and curiouser

18:49 jonaskoelker: I assume if you check eg. clojure.core/+ instead, you see the path to the clojure jar it loaded

18:49 jonaskoelker: still nil

18:50 TEttinger: oh resources may be weirdly different in APKs

18:50 justin_smith: TEttinger: fascinating

18:51 TEttinger: heh. I know that on Java, some "special" handling is needed for filesystem differences between android and desktop Java

18:51 ealfonso: if my dependencies i project.clj change, how do I 'fresh' those in the cider repl?

18:51 justin_smith: oh, right

18:51 ealfonso: s/fresh/refresh

18:52 justin_smith: ealfonso: as I remember it there is a command to pull in new deps, but nothing that will change a dep version or remove a dep

18:52 TEttinger: APKs, like JARs, don't allow you to write to their contents, but I think APKs have a different way of loading resources... hopefully a better one than the classloader package-relative-sometimes crap on desktop

18:52 justin_smith: but I also don't remember the command name / shortcut

18:53 ealfonso: justin_smith right now i'm killing and re-starting the repl, which is annoying

18:55 jonaskoelker: ealfonso: cider has a ,refresh thing, but that may be a cider-only thing

18:55 otherwise I have heard (vaguely) about https://github.com/clojure/tools.namespace

18:56 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: tools.namespace cannot pull in new classpath deps

18:56 jonaskoelker: oh *derp*

18:56 justin_smith: pomegranate can, or the more friendly pallet/alembic wrapper to it

18:56 but those don't come with cider iirc - cider has its own deal that loads classes

18:57 pomegranate will actually go and download a new dep then load it

18:59 jonaskoelker: I have all the classes that went into my apk in ./debug/classes/org/clojure/tools/nrepl, might that help?

19:01 hey wait!

19:02 nrepl.clj constructs version-string by getting a resource, (when-let [in (.getResourceAsStream (class connect) "/clojure/tools/nrepl/version.txt")] ...

19:02 version.txt is 0.2.12 -- but maybe getting the resource goes ookie

19:02 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: oh wow - so it is eerily related to my attempt to help failing in that way

19:03 fun coincidence

19:03 sounds like a bug for tools.nrepl?

19:06 jonaskoelker: could be

19:12 can I point lein to a hand-rolled tools.nrepl jar?

19:13 I might hard-wire the resource value into stuff just for funzies

19:13 justin_smith: jonaskoelker: absolutely - clone the repo, change the version string in project.clj, run lein install

19:13 well after making your other source changes of course :)

19:15 jonaskoelker: that sounds way too clean :D I was thinking about editing the *jar* file :D

19:28 would have been too easy, wouldn't it :\

19:28 I still get "0.2.10"

23:36 tolstoy: Speaking of Excel, worked with a finance guy to said he HAD to use windows because Excel + Basic was the killer app he couldn't do without: and no basic on the Mac version of Excel.

23:36 On the other hand, some people use it to create tables and use a calculator to plug in the right values. ;)

23:51 TEttinger: tolstoy: ?

23:51 tolstoy: Referring to a conversation 12 hours ago. ;)

23:52 Made me realize that Excel is the IDE / Shell "for the rest of us".

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