#clojure log - Nov 13 2014

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0:00 danielcompton: ,(require '[clojure.data.fressian :as fr])

0:00 clojurebot: #<FileNotFoundException java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/data/fressian__init.class or clojure/data/fressian.clj on classpath: >

0:53 kenrestivo: huh, learning interesting things about jna. seems like it just puts the args onto a stack and hopes for the best.

0:53 if the types are wrong, oh well.

0:57 danielcompton: andyf, found another bug here http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/DFRS-7

1:22 amalloy: danielcompton: your description there of changes you could make to hide the bug is super-unclear: i *think* i know what you mean by "remove a map pair from the map", and "change the vector key [3] for a keyword" is unambiguous but rather difficult to parse

1:39 rritoch: Are there snapshots released of clojure 1.7 for use with leiningen?

1:41 justin_smith: rritoch: yes, they are on maven

1:41 seancorfield: 1.7.0-alpha3 is the latest

1:42 We're about to push that to production

1:42 rritoch: Cool, thanks

1:44 Ok, where is the best place to track? https://clojars.org/org.clojure-android/clojure/versions ?

1:44 err, that is definatly the wrong link

1:45 Will they all show at http://mvnrepository.com/artifact/org.clojure/clojure ?

1:45 swedishf1sh: rritoch: thank goodness it wasn't something else :p

1:52 rritoch: justin_smith: As a followup regarding subinterfaces, you were right that using $ would allow me to refrence them, but there were still other issues I had to deal with since deftype doesn't support extends... I ended up using gen-class accross-the-board

1:53 https://github.com/rritoch/clj-grid-core/blob/master/src/com/vnetpublishing/clj/grid/lib/grid/webapp/filter_registration.clj

1:54 justin_smith: rritoch: remember I also mentioned proxy, which does support extending a class

1:54 http://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/proxy

1:59 rritoch: justin_smith: Would proxy have access to private methods of the class that called proxy?

2:00 justin_smith: In javaland it's possible to pass a self variable into proxy-like strucures via a static variable

2:01 justin_smith: The reason I ask is that there are 2 methods being exposed in the servlet wrapper that I would prefer to be private, but these filter registrations need to be able to access them.

2:02 justin_smith: the getFilterMaps and addFilterMap methods

2:05 justin_smith: Well either way, the gen-class's are working for now. Eventually the entire thing is going to be refactored anyhow, right now I'm simply implementing whatever works.

2:24 Anyhow, now that I can implement these subinterfaces there's no need for any java code, and I should be able to use it to deliver static content from OSGi modules. I'm also considering adding a separate servlet for handling .clj script delivery. It would be a short-circuit to bypass all OSGi support code until it's actually needed (as a fallback).

4:46 kenrestivo: so, using gloss, how might it be possible to convert 0xff to a byte-buffer? i.e. (gloss.core.formats/to-byte-buffer 0xff)

4:47 thanks to signedness, 0x7f is the maximum :-/

4:48 ah, nevermind, i can blow off gloss, and use jna/make-cbuf, and it doensn't give me grief.

5:08 mnngfltg: Turns out I need a nested when-let quite often: (when-let [a (f1) b (f2 a)) -- Is there something people commonly use in this situation?

5:08 (To explain: it should short-circuit for each binding-pair if the expression given is nil)

5:19 raspasov: mnngfltg: this is something I've realized sometimes as well, would be cool to see a macro solution to this!

5:27 mnngfltg: raspasov, this is quite similar to the idea: https://brehaut.net/blog/2011/error_monads

5:48 yogsototh: Hi could someone explain me why in the example of kafka consumer here: https://github.com/pingles/clj-kafka

5:48 there is a "shutdown" function?

5:49 my google fu is weak concerning (with-resource)

5:53 mnngfltg: yogsototh, speculation: the `consumer` is to be used only once, so you can pro-actively close the consumer when you're ready?

5:53 schmir: yogsototh: https://github.com/pingles/clj-kafka/blob/93a89f41bb09b6167d559b3f90ee2053fbb54b43/src/clj_kafka/core.clj#L17

5:53 it's being called after body has executed

5:54 yogsototh: mnngfltg, schmir: thanks!

5:55 mnngfltg: schmir, ah that's not really obvious, with-resource needs a doc string

5:55 yogsototh: I thought with-resource was a basic clojure macro not a clj-kafka one

5:56 schmir: yeah, when you first look at the code it looks like someone forgot to put parentheses around shutdown

5:57 mnngfltg: yogsototh, that's the problem with (use ...)

6:18 pal: hi, any idea why my compojure app returns 500 error on http://localhost:8080/app whereas http://localhost:8080/app/ works fine? is if fixable?

6:22 rritoch: mnngfltg: Here is a macro that does the when-let recursion for you

6:22 ,(defmacro when-and-let [bnds & body] (loop [a (partition 2 bnds) b (cons 'do body)] (if (empty? a) b (recur (butlast a) (cons 'when-let (conj (list b) (vec (last a)))))))

6:22 clojurebot: #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>

6:22 rritoch: ,(defmacro when-and-let [bnds & body] (loop [a (partition 2 bnds) b (cons 'do body)] (if (empty? a) b (recur (butlast a) (cons 'when-let (conj (list b) (vec (last a))))))))

6:22 clojurebot: #'sandbox/when-and-let

6:22 schmir: pal: compojure distinguishes between these two urls

6:23 rritoch: ,(when-and-let [a "A" b "B" c "C"] (println c))

6:23 clojurebot: C\n

6:23 rritoch: ,(when-and-let [a "A" b nil c "C"] (println c))

6:23 clojurebot: nil

6:23 schmir: pal: you have to explicitly handle both cases

6:24 mnngfltg: rritoch, great!

6:24 Kototama: schmir: how to I match the one without a slash?

6:25 rritoch: mnngfltg: It is lacking any sanity check though, in other words it doesn't verify you passed the correct number of args... It may be a useful improvement to this macro, but either way, it seems to work.

6:25 Kototama: I have something like (context "app" (GET "/" ...

6:25 mnngfltg: Kototama, do you proxy the request?

6:25 Kototama: no

6:26 just running it under tomcat

6:26 schmir: Kototama: (GET "/app" ....)

6:27 mnngfltg: Kototama, just remember there is not GET "", the root always has a "/"

6:28 Kototama: but why do I get an internal server error when not typing / then?

6:31 mnngfltg: Kototama, maybe it's related to tomcat

6:45 CookedGryphon: Does the cast function automatically type hint things too?

6:47 I'm having trouble with a function that returns an object (android getService) which you should expect to be of a certain type (in this case AccountManager)

6:47 and I can't seem to fix the reflection warning

6:47 dysfun_: what have you tried?

6:48 CookedGryphon: so I'm using neko which wraps that with a macro, and (.getAccountsByType ^AccountManager (get-service :account) "com.google") gives a warning

6:48 obviously without the ^AccountManager you get the warning too

6:49 dysfun: *nod*

6:49 CookedGryphon: then I thought, as it *is* actually returning an Object, perhaps I need to do something more, so I tried (.getAccountsByType (cast AccountManager (get-service :account) "com.google")

6:49 but that gives me a slightly different warning, target class is unknown

6:50 dysfun: sorry, i have nothing useful to add

7:12 andyf_: CookedGryphon: Is get-service a macro ?

7:13 CookedGryphon: andyf_: yes, it is

7:13 is that the issue?

7:13 andyf_: If so, by default Clojure eliminates type hints on macro invocations

7:13 unless you write the macro very specially

7:13 CookedGryphon: aha, I was considering removing the usage of this anyway

7:13 and calling it directly

7:13 andyf_: workaround: Use a type-hinted let binding around the form, e.g. (let [^Type x (get-service ...)] (form with x in it))

7:14 I wouldn?t normally know that, but recently finished writing a linter for Eastwood that would warn about that.

7:14 (the useless type hint)

7:15 * dysfun has heard eastwood has learned a lot of things recently

7:15 * dysfun wonders what it would make of this codebase

7:16 andyf_: If it is a Leiningen project, it is pretty easy to try it out.

7:16 And now, even if it isn't, you can invoke it from the REPL

7:16 * dysfun is just installing now

7:16 andyf_: Like just about any lint tool, there will be some useless warnings.

7:16 dysfun: *nod*

7:18 heh, i have to fix the syntax errors in the code i'm writing first

7:20 andyf_: Unlike most lint tools, it doesn't handle syntax errors gracefully

7:26 dysfun: hrm, 7 warnings

7:26 not too bad

7:27 but then again, the codebase isn't that big (yet)

7:27 andyf_: more importantly, are they actually signs of problems in the code, or just noise?

7:27 dysfun: i'm working through them

7:29 what's "unlimited use" mean?

7:31 oh, i get it, as in (:use

7:31 andyf_: simply that there is a :use inside of an ns form that does not do :refer or :only - https://github.com/jonase/eastwood#unlimited-use---use-statements-that-do-not-explicitly-limit-the-symbols-they-refer

7:32 There are links to more details on each linter (except 1 or 2 of the) here in the docs https://github.com/jonase/eastwood#whats-there

7:32 I will probably add URLs to the more detailed docs in the warnings themselves at some point.

7:33 dysfun: well i've just been through the entire list and i don't think any of the recommendations were unreasonable

7:33 people may disagree with the house style, but *shrug*

7:33 andyf_: The :unlimited-use thing is a personal preference, really. Some people really don't like them.

7:34 It has turned up actual bugs in some programs.

7:34 dysfun: well i don't like it with third party modules, but local stuff where you can just open the file, i think it's okay

7:35 andyf_: Linters can be disabled by putting an :eastwood key with an options map in your .lein/profiles.clj file or your project's project.clj file, if you wish. e.g. :eastwood {:exclude-linters [:unlimited-use]}

7:36 There isn't yet a way to disable individual warnings by annotating source code, but that should be added in a future release.

7:37 dysfun: what's the non-deprecated ring.middleware.file-info ?

7:39 clgv: humm, eastwood can't handle the threading macros...

7:40 dysfun: oh it raised one of those for me, but i took it as more suggestive

7:40 in which case, it has a point

7:40 clgv: not really

7:40 dysfun: made me look at it again and mentally verify it

7:40 clgv: it spams me with warnings inside of threading macros

7:40 dysfun: i can see that would get annoying after a while though

7:43 clgv: wasn't there some analyzing tool using tools.analyzer.jvm as well?

7:44 CookedGryphon: just using eastwood for the first time on my codebase, what's this wrong-tag return type of function on arg vector should be fully qualified or may cause exception if called from another namespace about?

7:44 clgv: oh eastwood does but does not say so in its project.clj

7:44 CookedGryphon: is that a clojure bug, or just some non-obvious behaviour

7:44 andyf_: sorry, been debugging for a few mins. reading

7:45 clgv: It does have issues with threading macros and the suspicous-expression linter. Should be able to fix that in the next release

7:46 clgv: andyf_: that would be great :)

7:46 andyf_: clgv: Eastwood does use tools.analyzer.jvm

7:46 clgv: andyf_: why is it not in the project.clj?

7:46 andyf_: CookedGryphon: Links to more docs on all of the linters are here in the readme: https://github.com/jonase/eastwood#whats-there

7:46 clgv: oh what? "copieddeps ..." :O

7:47 andyf_: Click on a [more] link there and you'll see a longer explanation. Some people call it a bug, Rich doesn't.

7:47 clgv: By doing the copieddeps thingy, it avoids Eastwood's dependencies conflicting with the project's dependencies that you are linting.

7:47 CookedGryphon: andyf_: ah yes, thanks, sorry I've come to expect READMEs to be uselessly short :P

7:48 clgv: andyf_: ok, that's a leiningen infrastructure problem, I guess

7:48 andyf_: clgv: Before I did that, any project that depended upon a too-different version of core.cache or core.memoize would cause exceptions to be thrown, unrelated to your program

7:49 clgv: Not really a Leiningen thing -- Eastwood must eval your code in the same JVM where Eastwood is running in order to do its thing

7:49 At least, that is how it is implemented. It would be a lot more work to *not* eval your code.

7:49 clgv: andyf_: oh right

7:50 andyf_: CookedGryphon: Eastwood's docs are perhaps too long, but hopefully the links to sections on different linters should help.

7:50 and it might be educational on some deep dark corner of Clojure you've never realized before.

7:51 clgv: Here is what the dependencies would look like without copieddeps hack: https://github.com/jonase/eastwood/blob/master/copy-deps-scripts/deps/project.clj

7:51 clgv: andyf_: is listing the licenses of all dependencies mandatory in general?

7:52 andyf_: clgv: I was being squeaky clean there. I doubt anyone would raise a stink.

7:53 clgv: ok ;)

8:07 hmmm `apply` should have inline arities...

8:07 oh wait, that wont help either

8:26 Kototama: mnngfltg: having (GET "/app") (context "/app" (GET "/")) may fix the problem, i need to test in tomcat now

8:27 samflores: how can I make something like a blocking take (<!!) in ClojureScript?

8:28 (I know it would freeze my app)

8:28 agarman: @sam

8:28 @samflores how would you ever unblock?

8:31 samflores: It would block after getting something from the channel, right?

8:31 *unblock

8:31 agarman: on a single thread how does something get put on the channel?

8:31 when you're holding the only thread

8:32 samflores: I was thinking on something diferent than "hold the thread" but achieving the similar results

8:32 like a state machine doing nothing (looping forever) until it gets something

8:33 mavbozo: samflores: like jQuery.ajax{"async" : true} ?

8:33 samflores: (sorry if it sound stupid, I have almost no idea how core.async works on cljs) :p

8:33 mavbozo: sorry

8:33 samflores: yep. something like that

8:34 clgv: samflores: why does <! not suffice?

8:35 mavbozo: samflores: for example, set async to false on jquery.ajax request

8:38 agarman: samflores: are you wanting a general blocking take (not just a synchronous ajax request)?

8:38 samflores: I'm using chord (https://github.com/james-henderson/chord) to establish a ws connection and I'd like to block (ws-ch) until the server server response arrive (success or fail)

8:39 clgv: samflores: I guess the proper way is to do this fully async so just use <! inside a `go` block

8:39 samflores: that's how I'm using it now

8:40 clgv: and the problem is?

8:45 samflores: keeping in sync other parts of the application that depends on the connection being established

8:49 clgv: samflores: you can just use a channel to communicate that the connection was established

8:50 samflores: clgv, yeah I know that... I was just wondering whether that's the only way.

8:51 thanks you all

9:07 mnngfltg: Kototama, did you find the issue?

9:13 razum2um: why keywordize-keys slows it down so much? https://www.refheap.com/ebe1d78863a178e23c27da0fa

9:15 mnngfltg: razum2um, I heard a rumor that creating keywords is a slow operation in clojure

9:15 (although one that will be optimized for 1.7)

9:18 razum2um: mnngfltg: hm, dont see it https://www.refheap.com/fc4cd52ed9a0d2683397df7dc

9:19 Bronsa: razum2um: that's not the same at all, in the first example you're creating the keywords one time only at compile time

9:19 perplexa: hmmm i have a (mapv (fn [a] (future ...))) that runs into a race condition on hadoop. so my temporary workaround is to have each future sleep 100msec more than the previous, how would i do that?

9:19 Bronsa: razum2um: in the second example you're creating them 1e4 times at runtime

9:20 razum2um: Bronsa: but is there any good way to get records from parsed json which parsed results in stringified keys? I know this keys already

9:22 Bronsa: razum2um: if you already know the keys, looking up in a {"key" :key" ..} map might be faster than creating a new keyword everytime

9:22 mgaare: razum2um: the slowness comes from the fact that keywordize-keys calls (keyword ) on all the string keys, which is slow. One way to do what you want, where you know the keys in advance, is replace that with a map lookup

9:22 clgv: perplexa: race condition? you should probably do some kind of coordination then

9:23 perplexa: clgv: you would assume that YARN's FairScheduler is safe against race conditions.

9:23 there's nothing i can do about it right now.

9:24 Bronsa: razum2um: try replacing keywordize-keys with clojure.set/rename-keys

9:24 clgv: perplexa: but the timeout quickfix seems pretty esoteric

9:24 CookedGryphon: in cider/emacs, is there something to find what calls this, etc

9:25 perplexa: clgv: that is true. the scheduler still throws java.util.ConcurrentModificationException and i can't wait until it is fixed in YARN and from the logs i can tell that the futures hammer the application master all at the same msec, randomly causing that exception

9:26 there's already similar bugs in YARN-1692

9:27 i run on 2.5.0, which is supposed to have the fix, though. so it's most likely still not fixed at some point. but i need a dirty hack around the problem asap.

9:27 i just have no idea how i'd have an incremental value in (map ..) - i probably don't at all, huh?

9:30 Glenjamin: perplexa: like map-indexed?

9:31 perplexa: Glenjamin: oh nice! except it is lazy :( mapv-indexed doesn't exist

9:31 Glenjamin: ,(mapv list [:a :b :c] (range))

9:31 clojurebot: [(:a 0) (:b 1) (:c 2)]

9:32 Glenjamin: map stops at the shortest seq

9:32 so (range) will give you a counter

9:33 perplexa: nice, thanks!

9:33 (inc Glenjamin)

9:33 lazybot: ⇒ 8

9:34 deg: I'm trying to get cider working, and am stuck.. Probably more of an emacs question, but hoping someone here can give me a hand.

9:35 Glenjamin: there's a cider channel now, but i've forgotten the name

9:36 deg: Thanks. Looks like it is #clojure-emacs

9:37 razum2um: Bronsa: rename-keys is twice as slow as the keyworded hash insertion. I just wonder, why isn't there a core macro for fast keywordize-keys based on known keys and lookup

9:50 Bronsa: razum2um: often keywordizing leads to more problem than it's worth

9:51 Kototama: mnngfltg: nope

9:53 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11055608/tomcat-is-not-adding-trailing-slash-to-web-apps-context maybe because the mapping generated by ring-uberwar is /* instead of / ? I need to explore further

10:08 razum2um: Bronsa: I thought I'd use a value list but it's not working this way (apply Rec. [1 2])

10:09 justin_smith: you can't apply a constructor

10:09 Bronsa: razum2um: use the ->Rec ctor

10:09 razum2um: "Rec." is meaningless, (Rec. ..) is clojure syntax that macroexpands to (new Rec ..)

10:09 razum2um: thank, apply to -> works

10:10 Bronsa: ,(macroexpand-1 '(String. ""))

10:10 clojurebot: (new String "")

10:10 justin_smith: ,(macroexpand-1 '(apply String. [""])) ; doesn't work

10:10 clojurebot: (apply String. [""])

10:12 Kototama: mnngfltg: yeah so the solution on the stackoverflow works

10:13 i'll open a ticket on lein-ring

10:13 mnngfltg: Kototama, looks like a tomcat problem mainly right?

10:13 but opening a ticket is useful anyway, for further reference

10:14 Kototama: i'm not an expert, but it seems lein-ring should generate <url-pattern>/</url-pattern> instead of <url-pattern>/*</url-pattern>

10:14 but maybe they do that for a good reason, we will see

10:17 mnngfltg: right

10:22 Kototama: here we go https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring/issues/139

10:31 mdrogalis: bbloom_: I swear GitHub just changed their Clojure syntax highlighting *again*

10:31 llasram: mdrogalis: Hey, it seems to be mostly working!

10:32 jeremyheiler: mdrogalis: i noticed that meta maps are grayed out a bit

10:32 thought that was nice

10:33 mdrogalis: http://i.imgur.com/qbLRsxE.png

10:33 What happened to numbers?! D:

10:33 llasram: Hmmmm

10:33 jeremyheiler: ew

10:33 justin_smith: mdrogalis: clearly numbers are very important, and likely errors

10:33 mdrogalis: My whole program is an error.

10:33 justin_smith: so they are highlighting them, to let you know you probably used them accidentally

10:33 llasram: Yeah, and I'm getting some weird highlighting of namespaced symbols which have the same basename as core symbols

10:34 justin_smith: (inc mdrogalis)

10:34 lazybot: ⇒ 7

10:34 justin_smith: I know that feeling

10:37 mavbozo: conceptually, Java reference and C pointer are same right? It's just something that points to another thing

10:37 puredanger: anyone here both know Eastwood well and going to the Conj?

10:37 I think that would be a cool unsession

10:38 justin_smith: mavbozo: you can use addition to get the "next item" from a pointer

10:38 mavbozo: I don't think java references provide or support anything like that

10:39 of course they are implemented as pointers, but loops are implemented as goto, in both cases what we have to work with is more restricted

10:41 dbasch: also java references are tracked by garbage collectors

10:41 jeremyheiler: mavbozo: also, java references are pass-by-value, so if you pass a reference into a method, that reference cannot be destroyed.

10:41 by that method

10:41 andyf_: puredanger: I guess it wouldn't be so cool if it were done via remote video :)

10:41 puredanger: that would be harder to arrange :)

10:42 mavbozo: justin_smith: you can get "next item" from C pointer by addition? Don't you get the next thing in memory address after the thing that is pointed by that pointer?

10:42 puredanger: andyf_: do you know anyone else that would be a good candidate? you should submit a talk on it for Clojure/West

10:42 justin_smith: dbasch: indeed, references are a more restricted concept (in a good way) that provide a lot of certainty that a pointer cannot

10:42 dbasch: (dec pointers)

10:42 lazybot: ⇒ -1

10:43 dbasch: dec pointers should segfault

10:43 andyf_: puredanger: Sean Corfield uses it for linting production code. Not sure if he is going. Nicola I'm guessing has class in Italy, but I don't know for sure.

10:43 Jonas Enlund. hiredman likes to use it.

10:45 justin_smith: mavbozo: right, the next item in memory, it's an operation defined and frequently used in c, and a reference has no corresponding operation

10:45 dbasch: mavbozo: the c compiler knows what you declared the pointer to be, so when you do p++ it increments it by the size of the type

10:46 andyf_: puredanger: Clojure/West talk sounds like a good idea. Probably not the right time to ask where/when it will be, a few days before the Conj :)

10:46 puredanger: andyf_: I don't think Sean or Jonas will be there. hiredman= Kevin right?

10:46 andyf_: puredanger: Kevin Downey, I believe.

10:46 mavbozo: so, in general, there are symbols, references, values, and boxes which contain values

10:46 those concepts are applicable to any programming languages

10:47 puredanger: andyf_: <unconfirmed>c/w will probably be Portland in mid-April</unconfirmed>

10:47 we are trying to lock down contracts so we can make that official next week at the conj

10:47 dbasch: a typical error in C is incrementing the pointer when you wanted to increment the pointed value, or viceversa

10:47 mavbozo: for example, in clojure, "+" is a symbol which names a reference, in this a var +

10:48 which points to values a function in clojure.core

10:48 puredanger: hiredman: any interest in leading an Eastwood unsession at the conj? just an idea

10:48 mavbozo: *which points to a value that is a function + in clojure.core

10:49 because var in a reference in clojure, var is reference right?

10:49 andyf_: hiredman: If it helps at all, I have some slides I could spiff up from a talk almost a year ago, plus add some notes.

10:49 clojurebot: Pardon?

10:53 justin_smith: mavbozo: everything in the jvm that is not a primitive is a reference type

10:53 though there has been talk of implementing value types...

10:59 mavbozo: and there is some subtlety (and some oddness) to be found in the jvm's model of things. For example everything that is not a primitive is an object (an instance of some class), and every executable method must belong to some object.

11:02 wait, sorry, the methods only belong to classes

11:03 mavbozo: justin_smith: and in clojure, we only deal with values and reference types (var, atom, agent, refs) right?

11:03 justin_smith: in this sense C, which supports function pointers, and does not assign ownership of functions to datatypes, is closer to being a functional language than java is. But we find our way by making "functions" that are classes with .invoke methods

11:04 mavbozo: local bindings are not any of those

11:04 ,(let [a 0] a)

11:04 clojurebot: 0

11:04 justin_smith: a is not a var, atom, agent, or ref in that context

11:04 it is a binding

11:05 or, basically equivalent: ##((fn [a] a) 0)

11:05 lazybot: ⇒ 0

11:05 justin_smith: once again, a is not any of those reference types

11:06 mavbozo: justin_smith: wait, there are more reference types?

11:06 justin_smith: no, a is not a reference type in either of those cases

11:06 in your code, it is a binding

11:07 when compiled, it is substituted appropriately, but what it is substituted with is an implementation detail

11:10 andyf_: justin_smith: I haven't read enough compiled byte code to be authoritative, but isn't such a binding usually a pointer/reference on the stack or in a register, rather than in a class or object somewhere? (exception: when you successfully type hint the bound name to a primitive type)

11:10 justin_smith: andyf_: I thought it was a slot in the compiled object that is the function

11:11 andyf_: I could be wrong

11:11 stuartsierra: It varies depending on context.

11:11 justin_smith: so "implementation detail" is safe

11:11 stuartsierra: Closed-over locals become instance fields in the function's class.

11:12 Other locals just become method-local variables in Java bytecode.

11:12 Maybe there is some optimization there, I'm not sure.

11:13 Bronsa: stuartsierra: no that's pretty much it

11:14 * puredanger agreed (plus primitive use where possible)

11:14 clgv: you get to see a lot final vars when you use a java decompiler ;)

11:14 puredanger: and locals clearing

11:15 clgv: yeah locals clearing is the confusing stuff when you see decompiled clojure for the first time

11:15 justin_smith: clgv: var in the java, not clojure sense, right?

11:15 gfredericks: (defn ^:public ^:static ^:void main [^String[] args] ...)

11:15 puredanger: clgv: I find it clearer to read the bytecode itself usually but I may be warped

11:16 gfredericks: puredanger: and you edit your files with M-x butterfly?

11:16 puredanger: I use that to edit my butterflies

11:16 stuartsierra: http://xkcd.com/378/

11:17 justin_smith: puredanger: sometimes the reduced ambiguity of a weak language is refreshing

11:17 puredanger: (inc stuartsierra)

11:17 lazybot: ⇒ 14

11:17 justin_smith: it reduces ambiguity

11:17 gfredericks: huh. does C-x M-c M-butterfly even make sense?

11:17 justin_smith: of course not

11:17 stuartsierra: Try `M-x butterfly` some time though.

11:17 gfredericks: clojurebot: reduced ambiguity |reduces| ambiguity

11:17 clojurebot: In Ordnung

11:17 clgv: justin_smith: yes

11:18 gfredericks: stuartsierra: I tried it and was too scared to answer the question

11:18 clgv: puredanger: I am not fluent in bytecode, so I prefer the pseudo java view ;)

11:18 TimMc: gfredericks: It has side effects either way you answer it!

11:19 gfredericks: TimMc: C-g

11:19 TimMc: mu

11:21 mavbozo: Do you really want to unleash the powers of the butterfly? (yes or no) , I answer no. I am too affraid of the side effects

11:22 gfredericks: vote NO to unleashing the powers of the butterfly!

11:24 mavbozo: justin_smith: thank you for your exposition about reference in clojure and java

11:24 justin_smith: np

11:25 mavbozo: lucily, most of the time, you can deal with clojure code in terms of immutible values and pure functions, but that other stuff helps when the abstractions leak

11:27 (big leakages include stack traces, profiling one's code, and random corner cases of the language)

11:28 hiredman: puredanger: are you thinking BoF sort of unsession or short presentation sort of unsession?

11:28 puredanger: bof

11:28 well, whatever really

11:28 I just think it would be cool for more people to know about it

11:28 hiredman: sure, I can facilitate the heck out of that

11:28 puredanger: can you add a session here? https://github.com/cognitect/clojure-conj/wiki/Clojure-conj-2014-Unsessions

11:29 mavbozo: justin_smith: i am in a middle of trying to applying my understanding on general notion of symbol, reference, value, and box which contain value

11:29 justin_smith: to clojure, and java

11:30 puredanger: mavbozo: you might like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NUI07y1SlQ

11:30 mavbozo: justin_smith: maybe .NET next

11:31 puredanger: i'll watch it. thx.

11:31 enn: Hello ... I have a pre-condition check in a clojure.test :each fixture. When it fails, there is nothing in the output to identify which test the fixture was running for. Is there any way to get this information?

11:31 justin_smith: enn: (test/testing "context of contained code" ...)

11:32 enn: oh wait

11:32 that doesn't help in a precondition

11:33 enn: I would write a precondition test as a function, and call it inside each test to reduce ambiguity

11:33 enn: alternatively you could try to get a name from the f that the precondition is wrapping I guess...

11:35 enn: justin_smith: we tried that, the name is nil, unfortunately

11:35 I guess the answer is "don't use fixtures for that" :)

11:35 andyf_: hiredman: Feel free to ask me any questions you might have, here or email is fine, or we could even arrange a phone call if that would help. Then I'll tell you all the stuff that you have to ask Bronsa :)

11:35 justin_smith: enn: deftest creates a function, you should be able to get *something* from that function or its metadata

11:36 enn: even the ugly-ass printed version of a function often has something close to its own name inside

11:36 ,(fn foo [])

11:36 clojurebot: #<sandbox$eval25$foo__26 sandbox$eval25$foo__26@1a05f56>

11:36 enn: justin_smith: I think it's an anonymous function, though

11:36 justin_smith: enn: so was foo

11:37 stuartsierra: clojure.test generates anonymous functions to wrap fixtures around tests.

11:37 justin_smith: stuartsierra: ahh, so there would be no meaningful metadata or name hidden in that function value

11:39 puredanger: stuartsierra: if those anonymous functions had names, their class would also contain the name

11:39 stuartsierra: Yes but it would always be the same name.

11:40 puredanger: well that wouldn't help much

11:41 hiredman: puredanger: done

11:41 justin_smith: yeah, nothing useful there https://www.refheap.com/93295

11:42 puredanger: hiredman: thanks!

11:43 hiredman: andyf_: those slides you mention would be super, although I vaguely think I've seen an eastwood slide deck somewhere before

11:45 andyf_: oh, yeah, I see you say you gave that talk, so I must have seen them, I am thinking for a bof style session no slides, but I should make sure I know what I am talking about

11:49 andyf_: hiredman: Sure. They were hastily constructed, but I could write down a few notes to go with them.

12:13 lostman: hi all. I'm wondering whether there's such thing in clojure as 'reverse destructuring'. more often than not I have a variable that I want to put in a map under the key that's the same as variable name: (let [x 33] {:x x}). is there any shorthand for that? I don't like spelling things twice

12:14 llasram: lostman: Not in core, but it's a trivial macro I'm sure has been written many times

12:15 lostman: something like https://gist.github.com/llasram/9510281

12:15 justin_smith: it is implemented in flatland/useful also

12:15 llasram: well there you go

12:16 lostman: cool, thx

12:16 verma: what do I need to do to get clojuredocs examples stuff to show in lein repl?

12:17 EvanR: im using prismatic/schema to describe some records defined by some real life committee, and sure seems like "required key by default" is the opposite of what i want

12:17 even the very few fields which are listed as required are in practice possibly missing

12:18 andyf_: verma: There is a client that still works here: https://github.com/jafingerhut/cd-client

12:19 verma: I believe the API that it uses with ClojureDocs.org web site is an old still-supported one, as in the queries still work against the server, but I think it is returning examples from a snapshot in time a month or two ago.

12:19 verma: andyf_: hmm thanks!

12:19 andyf_: it integrates with my repl/

12:19 andyf_: verma: There is a Github issue open for ClojureDocs.org to update the data retrieved via this API, but I don't know when that might happen.

12:19 EvanR: luckily i have a keyboard macro to wrap every field in (s/optional-key

12:21 andyf_: verma: It also has instructions for downloading and storing a local 'snapshot' file of all the data (which isn't very big - couple megabytes I think) that you can use with the same commands at the REPL, even without a live Internet connection

12:22 verma: andyf_: nice!

12:22 EvanR: ) ;; sorry OCD :P

12:25 Glenjamin: EvanR: (defn optional-keys [m] (into (empty m) (for [[k v] m] [(s/optional-key k) v])))

12:30 EvanR: Glenjamin: good call, always wonder if things like this are acceptable

12:37 TimMc: ,(+ 1 2)))))

12:37 clojurebot: 3

12:42 Bronsa: andyf_: with the last commit t.a no longer supports clojure 1.4. Is that an issue for eastwood?

12:43 andyf_: Bronsa: I haven't tested it with Clojure 1.4 in a while -- some other dependency might be forcing >= 1.5.1 already.

12:43 Bronsa: ok then I won't worry about that.

12:43 andyf_: I'm happy making the next release require 1.5.1 or above

12:44 Bronsa: andyf_: I needed to use reduced/reduced? and that's a 1.5.0 feature

12:44 andyf_: Bronsa: No gray area in that needed<---->wanted zone there? :)

12:47 Bronsa: andyf_: :P

12:48 andyf_: I *needed* reduced/reduced? to implement a feature I *wanted*

12:50 EvanR: is it possible to write a schema which is like sch1 OR sch2

12:51 either

12:57 bbloom_: mdrogalis heh, they did

12:57 seems like the identifier pink is less bright

12:57 slightly less ugly, but slighly worse contrast

12:57 weeee

12:59 mavbozo: not really

12:59 mavbozo: you can also differentiate a pointer from a pointee, you can't differentiate a reference from a referand

12:59 justin_smith: they absolutely do not

12:59 not the least of why is b/c the GC can move them on you

13:00 justin_smith: bbloom_: what do not what?

13:01 oh, something about pointers from above?

13:01 bbloom_: mavbozo: yes

13:02 EvanR: what is #' in (recursive #'ExampleRecursiveSchema)

13:02 mi6x3m: hey clojure, can you suggest some strategy of running acceptance tests with leiningen?

13:02 justin_smith: ,'#'foo ; EvanR

13:02 clojurebot: (var foo)

13:02 EvanR: var eh

13:03 ,(var foo)

13:03 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: foo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

13:03 EvanR: does not compute

13:03 ,'(var foo)

13:03 clojurebot: (var foo)

13:03 justin_smith: ,(var +)

13:03 clojurebot: #'clojure.core/+

13:04 justin_smith: technomancy: estikes is spamming

13:06 mi6x3m: since an acceptance test is a black box test, couldn't you use a standard clojure.test/deftest with use-fixtures defined for the appriate setup and teardown?

13:07 mi6x3m: justin_smith: I use leiningen in a separate clojure project currently, yes

13:08 justin_smith: I mean I use expectations sorry

13:08 but the framework is of no importance at all

13:08 I just thought there's some leiningen task like Maven's verify that's dedicated to such actions

13:08 justin_smith: lein test

13:08 maybe expectations has its own variant, lein test is for clojure.test

13:09 or do you mean the specific logic of only deploying if tests pass?

13:10 mi6x3m: justin_smith: well in a maven lifecycle you have separate phases: "test" and "verify"

13:10 test would be for unit and integration tests

13:10 justin_smith: OK, I'm not familiar

13:10 mi6x3m: verify for acceptance tests etc. QA tasks

13:12 EvanR: verify means qa?

13:12 seems like this terminology would be misleading

13:12 mi6x3m: "verify - run any checks to verify the package is valid and meets quality criteria"

13:13 could be, yes, my terms are perhaps unprecise :)

13:13 EvanR: "its broken" "no, its verified"

13:13 "oh, ok then"

13:14 more like tested again in other ways

13:21 justin_smith: mi6x3m: I am not sure how this is organized, but a naive thought is to make two different testing targets - :unit and :qa - and then one stage would be "lein test :unit" and the other would be "lein test qa"

13:22 mi6x3m: see here https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L212 and here https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L323

13:22 for a deploy task that depends on a specific test selector, and the definition of selectors

13:23 mi6x3m: yes this is actually a good idea

13:23 have another folder wit htests and run them under a different task

13:26 jkj_: i'm having difficulties wrapping my head around building a converyor system on core.async

13:27 if only i could find examples of systems, not just usage of the library

13:27 justin_smith: what is a converyor?

13:27 jkj_: justin_smith: well.. multiple pieces of code forming a "production line" which the data goes through

13:28 justin_smith: conveyor?

13:28 jkj_: justin_smith: "how to wire the channels together" - i might form the question :(

13:28 oops

13:28 :)

13:28 even

13:28 Glenjamin: you could have a series of components which all have input & output channels

13:28 jkj_: justin_smith: yes. sorry. cannot see my own typos

13:28 Glenjamin: then some top-level function which wires them together

13:29 justin_smith: jkj_: ever use max/msp or puredata? the visual patch language is a great metaphor to help think of how a channel using codebase would work

13:29 engblom: If anyone want to be a "Clojure Lint", please comment on: http://pastebin.com/iig0d3V7 . I would especially want comments on input-move as I think it is ugly in current state.

13:30 jkj_: justin_smith: haven't. have to take a look

13:30 justin_smith: jkj_: blog post with an image of a simple puredata visual program https://nicholasbuer.wordpress.com/category/pure-data-and-arduino-term-3/

13:30 jkj_: justin_smith: thank you

13:31 justin_smith: jkj_: the boxes are units that do some kind of processing (like a go block), the lines are channels of data (like chan) that come out the bottom of one box, and go into the top of another

13:31 not that you need to learn puredata before using core.async, but I found the metaphor helped me conceptualize it

13:32 jkj_: alright

13:32 that does help

13:33 engblom: Is there a good lint tool similar to hlint for Haskell? Kibit is very limited, I hope to find something better.

13:33 jkj_: i could be very clear about the different modules in the code

13:33 justin_smith: engblom: eastwood is pretty good

13:34 jkj_: justin_smith: do you think the channels in between should be named and well declared? or should they just be implicit thing when you layer channely things

13:34 verma: justin_smith: you know if eastwood does cljs?

13:34 justin_smith: verma: no idea...

13:34 I don't think so

13:35 jkj_: channels are useful to have names for in a local scope, indicating how they are used

13:35 bbloom_: i know coffeescript has that

13:36 i wonder what they call it

13:36 justin_smith: ie. is it the result channel from a go block, an input queue, a place where you put tasks, an abort message

13:36 engblom: I get "Subprocess failed" when running Eastwood. Somehow it is not working for my project. It begins, but fails while analyzing.

13:36 justin_smith: *a source of an abort message (or a startup message, or whatever)

13:36 bbloom_: http://coffeescript.org/#try:%7Bx%7D

13:36 the docs don't seem to mention it though...

13:37 justin_smith: engblom: any other context information? my first suspicion is that if eastwood crashes, you are likely doing something very odd in your namespace definitions

13:39 engblom: this can equally be caused by exceedingly clever code (like core.typed or potemkin) or by sketchy code

13:39 engblom: justin_smith: "Constant value is discarded inside null: nil (nil value is returned by comment and gen-class expressions)"

13:40 The code is the one I linked to a little while ago

13:40 Bronsa: engblom: which version of eastwood are you using?

13:40 verma: eastwood does not do cljs yet

13:41 justin_smith: engblom: so for this namespace, right? http://pastebin.com/iig0d3V7

13:41 engblom: Bronsa: 0.1.3

13:41 verma: Bronsa: ok, thanks

13:41 Bronsa: engblom: try 0.1.5 out

13:41 engblom: justin_smith: Yes

13:41 verma: most of my clojure dev is in clojurescript, it'd be nice :D

13:42 justin_smith: engblom: for starters, don't use clojure.string/join directly, require clojure.string (probably with an :as string) - namespaces are available if someone else already required them, but relying on it implicitly is bad form

13:43 engblom: guessing that eastwood doesn't like the empty :gen-class in the ns decl, does it run OK if you take that out?

13:43 engblom: Bronsa: 0.1.5 is not crashing. It is working, however it does not complain anything

13:43 justin_smith: oh, n/m then

13:43 engblom: justin_smith: The new Eastwood is not complaining

13:43 justin_smith: right, thus my n/m

13:44 Bronsa: yeah this was fixed in the new version

13:44 justin_smith: hmm, I would have hoped eastwood would complain about usage of a namespace that isn't in your :require block

13:46 kenrestivo: "i know what you're thinking. did he use one namespace, or two? well, in all the confusion i've kind of lost track myself..."

13:47 justin_smith: do you feel lucky?

13:47 Bronsa: justin_smith: the problem with that is that once ns is macroexpanded away, it's unrecognizable

13:48 justin_smith: Bronsa: the usage of clojure.string without requiring it?

13:48 Bronsa: yeah

13:48 but maybe andy has already some infrastructure in place for parsing manually the ns form, idk

13:49 bbloom_: EvanR: it's worth noting that `either` has some serious problems in terms of understandability of errors

13:49 EvanR: if you can, prefer "if" and "cond" (i think they are called)

13:49 justin_smith: ahh, and because of macroexpansion you could get qualified symbols from namespaces you did not explicitly require

13:49 Bronsa: justin_smith: right

13:49 Glenjamin: can you do the check before macroexpansion?

13:49 EvanR: bbloom_: that sucks

13:50 justin_smith: Bronsa: a top level superficial analysis could catch x.y/z in the literal form and say you should use :import or :require or :use. Maybe.

13:50 Bronsa: justin_smith: that has the high risk of reporting false positives

13:50 justin_smith: absolutely

13:51 Bronsa: (some-macro x.y/z) where some-macro returns nil

13:51 justin_smith: not saying it can't be done -- probably by plugging into the macroexpander it could be possible

13:51 but it's not trivial

13:52 justin_smith: right

13:52 Glenjamin: Bronsa: wouldn't that still be reasonable to call an error that a linter should warn on?

13:53 even if it doesn't break, it's potentially confusing code?

13:53 engblom: Now I have slightly changed it. It is passing both kibit and eastwood but still I think the input-move function is very ugly: http://pastebin.com/u4YLNi9e

13:54 Glenjamin: engblom: i'd extract (and (neg? row) (>= row (count heaps)) into a fn

13:54 justin_smith: engblom: since the only thing done to create new-heaps is an assoc, I would suggest merging the let clauses and just accepting you do an assoc but don't read the result if the first illegal-move check fails

13:54 Bronsa: engblom: yeah eastwood can only warn you about wrong/suspicious stuff, it can't really judge the idiomaticity of your code

13:55 Glenjamin: there are a lot of macros that expand into (some.ns/foo ..) where some.ns is not requried by your ns

13:55 Glenjamin: Bronsa: does eastwood not lint before macroexpansion?

13:55 Bronsa: Glenjamin: warning in that case would create a very low signal-to-noise ratio

13:56 Glenjamin: it does both depending on the linter, but even doing that before macroexpansion has its problems

13:56 justin_smith: yeah, a linter that reports non-errors undermines its own utility - users get annoyed and stop using it

13:56 Glenjamin: "this could be misleading" is reasonable for a linter imo

13:56 especially since eastwood is easy to confifgure

13:57 justin_smith: Glenjamin: in my experience, I keep improving until the linter shuts up - if I can't or perfectly good code gets a warnign, I won't use the linter

13:57 Bronsa: Glenjamin: well open an issueq then I guess, maybe andy has an idea on how to implement this in a reasonable way

13:58 Glenjamin: I don't really have a stake in this, was just interested in the rationale

13:59 justin_smith: If I fail a lint warn I tend to go check the docs to see why it's considered bad, then see if I care

13:59 This is learned behaviour from jslint

13:59 EvanR: jslint, in which most of the time its "i dont care"

13:59 justin_smith: Glenjamin: yeah, I actually clean up the code until jslint stops warning, maybe that's weird though

14:00 engblom: justin_smith: By merging the let clauses you might end up in a situation where you use assoc with an index out of range. Do you mean I should wrap it with try-catch?

14:00 Glenjamin: I once spent half a day doing that, and ended up with something I thought was less readable, threw away the changes and deleted jslint

14:01 Nowadays I use eslint with a smallish config

14:01 ,(assoc nil nil nil)

14:01 clojurebot: {nil nil}

14:01 Glenjamin: No harm done :)

14:02 EvanR: most of the options in jslint are completely arbitrary stylistic preferences of dcrockford

14:02 justin_smith: engblom: you can use (delay ...) and then deref it, or define it as illegal (and (neg? row) (>= row (count heaps))) new-heaps (and (not illegal) (assoc heaps row amount))

14:02 Glenjamin: I think this is assoc with vector/index

14:02 ,(assoc [] 1 :a)

14:02 Glenjamin: Oh

14:02 clojurebot: #<IndexOutOfBoundsException java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException>

14:03 justin_smith: Glenjamin: I missed that on my first read too

14:03 Glenjamin: So input-move does IO & validation

14:03 And the game loop

14:03 Maybe try and split into those separate tasks

14:03 justin_smith: yeah, that's a good point

14:04 one function for each of those concerns makes sense

14:07 * bbloom_ gets burned by defmulti's dispatch fn caching... again

14:07 jeremyheiler: bbloom_: that was me yesterday...

14:07 TimMc: :-(

14:07 Is this the fact that you can't just re-eval defmulti?

14:07 Bronsa: just put a (def foo) before (defmulti foo ..)

14:07 llasram: (inc Bronsa)

14:07 lazybot: ⇒ 71

14:08 llasram: That's totally what I do

14:08 kenrestivo: *cough* clojure.tools.namespace.repl/reload *cough*

14:08 er, refresh, but yeah, that

14:11 jeremyheiler: bbloom_: I think if you define the dispatch function separate, and pass it in as a var, it'll re-eval fine.

14:14 andyf: justin_smith: earlier you said about eastwood: "justin_smith: hmm, I would have hoped eastwood would complain about usage of a namespace that isn't in your :require block"

14:14 justin_smith: yes, I did

14:14 andyf: My question: Doesn't Clojure itself fail on such a require?

14:14 e.g. if you try 'lein check', assuming Leiningen

14:14 justin_smith: andyf: he was using clojure.string/join

14:14 Bronsa: andyf: no, if the namespace has already been loaded by another namespace foo.bar/baz will work

14:14 andyf: Meaning (:use clojure.string/join) in the ns form?

14:15 justin_smith: andyf: no, referring to it by its fully qualified name

14:15 Bronsa: andyf: "(ns foo) clojure.string/join"

14:15 justin_smith: lein repl already loaded it?

14:16 maybe clojure.string is a special case that doesn't get caught - I have had this issue with clojure.pprint/pprint though - things work in my repl, then I try to deploy and everything falls apart

14:16 andyf: If in a REPL then it depends on the complete history and a bunch of other stuff. If you do 'lein check' there are fewer things to differ

14:16 justin_smith: though maybe lein check would catch that one

14:16 right

14:16 bbloom_: you have to ns-unmap it to redefine the dispatch fn

14:16 a behavior for which i see no good reason...

14:16 Bronsa: is this just a bug? is there any reason not to *fix* this?

14:17 andyf: I know there are lint tools that can give better syntax errors than compilers for the same language, but Eastwood is not intended to be such a lint tool.

14:17 justin_smith: andyf: my thought was, even if you know contextually the other ns is loaded, referring to it by its full name should be worthy of a warning at least

14:17 andyf: OK

14:17 Bronsa: bbloom_: no the defonce behaviour of defmulti is intended behaviour AFAIK

14:17 technomancy: estikes is the usual spammer

14:17 llasram: One wonders why protocols don't have the same behavior then however

14:18 justin_smith: andyf: Bronsa did explain how that would be hard to do in practice thanks to macroexpansion, which I had not considered

14:18 bbloom_: jeremyheiler: 9 times out of 10 my dispatch fn is a keyword

14:18 Bronsa: I honestly have no idea *why* that's the case and would prefer if it hadn't defonce semantics

14:19 it might have to do with defmethod caching

14:19 llasram: Bronsa: Just make it not defonce in your implementation

14:19 :-D

14:19 clojurebot: Excuse me?

14:19 Bronsa: llasram: I'm not reimplementing the whole clojure runtime :)

14:19 andyf: a guideline I've been following is: if the compiler has an error or warning message for it already, consider it done and don't try to duplicate it.

14:19 hiredman: people complained about the way it was

14:19 so it got changed

14:19 engblom: I made a new version: http://pastebin.com/85wB7mNF . I still have a slight repeat I would want to get rid of there in input-move

14:19 andyf: Try to catch things the compiler will not.

14:19 llasram: clojurebot: :-D is happiness

14:19 clojurebot: Ik begrijp

14:20 llasram: Bronsa: I know that you're *starting* small...

14:20 bbloom_: Bronsa: why?

14:20 justin_smith: andyf: so in general I should be running lein do check, eastwood maybe

14:20 Bronsa: hiredman: give us the names. there's some murdering I need to do

14:21 TimMc: clojurebot: ☃ is a good check for UTF-8 support

14:21 clojurebot: You don't have to tell me twice.

14:21 bbloom_: hiredman: huh?

14:21 TimMc: clojurebot: ☃

14:21 hiredman: I think the complaint was something like: "hey, if I redef a defmulti and don't reload other namespaces that define methods I don't get my methods"

14:21 clojurebot: ☃ is a good check for UTF-8 support

14:21 hiredman: which is crazy

14:21 andyf: justin_smith: I would recommend that order

14:21 Bronsa: bbloom_: I'm agreeing with you that the defonce semantics are bad, what are you asking me?

14:22 bbloom_: Bronsa: you've answered my questions

14:23 kzar: Dumb question possibly but how can I access my clojurescrpt namespace from javascript? (I'm trying to debug something in the console)

14:24 BobSchack: kzar: (ns foo.bar) should be foo.bar in the console

14:24 kzar: BobSchack: I tried that but it doesn't seem to work

14:25 BobSchack: what optimization level are you using?

14:25 kzar: BobSchack: Whatever is the default I think

14:26 hiredman: google groups are the worst

14:28 BobSchack: kzar: you should be able to access the namespace directly with out any difficulty if you have the optimizations :none or :whitespace, (possibly even :simple)

14:29 kzar: BobSchack: Aha, I had an element with the ID of foo so foo returned some kind of React component / HTML element and therefore foo.bar was undefined

14:29 HTML element* (I guess that's something kioo does?)

14:30 hiredman: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/MXf8zWAv3vI/JTGF1qxWKpMJ here I am repeating what I said, but still can't find the original thread that prompted the change to defonce like

14:30 BobSchack: Oh HTML element id's are autmatically inserted to the global namespace in broswers

14:31 kzar: BobSchack: Oh, I did not know that

14:33 danielcompton: amalloy_: thanks, I'll reword it

14:33 Bronsa: puredanger: https://github.com/clojure/build.ci/commit/4bf095a16caec1844192d35f1cd167766e114841 I'll need a hudson rebuild when you have time

14:34 puredanger: Bronsa: ok

14:39 engblom: What do you think about this: (when (= "y" (prompt "Do you want to play again? y/n:")) (-main)

14:40 Is it a problem to recurse in main like this?

14:41 Bronsa: engblom: no, -main is just a regular function

14:41 justin_smith: engblom: probably use (recur) unless you want to blow the stack after N games

14:41 danielcompton: amalloy_: I'd edit the ticket but I don't have permission in Jira

14:41 engblom: Bronsa: Isn't java having a problem with recursion? As clojure is having loop/recur)

14:42 justin_smith: engblom: we don't have automatic tco

14:42 engblom: (recur) works in functions too

14:42 Bronsa: engblom: yeah use recur as justin_smith suggested

14:45 engblom: May I get help first with this short function before I try to rewrite -main? I would want to make prompt-int to use loop/recur: http://pastebin.com/THZYdYCN

14:45 TEttinger: hey engblom

14:45 I'll take a look

14:45 engblom: TEttinger: Hello and thanks!

14:45 justin_smith: engblom: you can't recur inside catch

14:46 dbasch: I believe what engbloom wants is to recur if the evaluation of the try-catch doesn’t yield an integer

14:46 justin_smith: engblom: instead (let [input (try (Integer. (prompt msg)) (catch Exception _ nil))] (or input (recur)))

14:47 dbasch: right

14:47 just saying that particular point doesn't work for recurring

14:47 need to recur from outside the catch

14:48 dbasch: yep

14:48 justin_smith: the nil there is optional - it would also work with (catch Exception _) but that's a bit odder to read

14:51 engblom: justin_smith: How is that (or ...) working as it is only having one expression?

14:51 justin_smith: engblom: it has two

14:52 ,(or nil :OK)

14:52 clojurebot: :OK

14:52 engblom: Yes, you are right

14:53 justin_smith: another thought - when looping and catching exceptions, you probably want to narrow down and catch the explicit exception type

14:53 otherwise a program can get stuck sometimes

14:53 ie. what if you tried to interrupt

14:54 ,(try (Integer/parseInt "not a number") (catch Exception e (class e)))

14:54 clojurebot: justin_smith: Cool story bro.

14:54 justin_smith: that returns java.lang.NumberFormatException

15:01 engblom: Is it possible to catch two different exceptions with one (catch ...)?

15:01 With some kind of (or ...)?

15:03 justin_smith: engblom: you can have multiple catch blocks in one try

15:07 dbasch: engblom: you mean two different subclasses of Exception?

15:07 jkj_: does saving in http://cljsfiddle.net/ work for anybody?

15:08 dnolen_: jonasen: ^

15:09 engblom: dbasch: Yes

15:09 annelies: ¡Hola!

15:09 engblom: If either of those two exceptions are thrown I want to do the same stuff.

15:10 jonasen: jkj_: seems not. I get transactor-not-available

15:10 jkj_: I can take a look at this over the weekend but not before unfortunately

15:10 amalloy: engblom: not with the built-in try/catch, but it's easy to build your own numerous ways

15:11 for example, (letfn [(handle [e] (...))] (try (f) (catch IllegalArgumentException e (handle e)) (catch IllegalStateException e (handle e))))

15:11 jkj_: jonasen: thanks. no worries

15:12 dbasch: engblom: you can also catch Exception and then see if it’s one of many subclasses

15:12 justin_smith: amalloy: alternately (try (foo) (catch Exception e (if (contains my-handled e) (handle e) (throw e))))

15:12 dbasch: (assuming you want to catch *only* those classes)

15:12 jonasen: The box I run it on has way too little memory for datomic...

15:12 justin_smith: where by contains I mean contains? and my-handled is a set of Exception subtypes

15:14 dbasch: justin_smith: you can leave out the contains? too

15:14 justin_smith: dbasch: of course, but I like to make it explicit when it's not a set literal

15:14 amalloy: i saw a gist on /r/clojure from someone (AeroNotix?) to do this sort of thing pretty recently, which you can look at for inspiration, although i would suggest just doing it with built-ins

15:14 justin_smith: dbasch: you also need to call (class e)...

15:15 dbasch: amalloy: yes, I’d have my-handled be a function

15:15 amalloy: a downside of that approach is that you have to catch and rethrow exceptions, instead of just letting the jvm do its thing

15:15 justin_smith: amalloy: ah right, good call, thanks

15:15 AeroNotix: https://github.com/AeroNotix/crap/blob/master/src/crap/exceptions.clj#L32-L36

15:15 here's a macro to do it

15:15 justin_smith: yes, definitely a downside

15:16 dbasch: I never liked checked exceptions. In clojure I almost never use anything other than Exception

15:17 justin_smith: dbasch: I like knowing the difference between "eof on file" and "out of memory while allocating buffer to read file" - but of course the usage of an "exceptional state" to communicate the former is not uncontroversial

15:19 dbasch: I thought "checked exceptions" meant the compiler side construct where you get an error if you don't handle specific declared exception types when making a call - thanks to not using javac we don't have to deal with those at all

15:19 amalloy: AeroNotix: if you are interested in some nitpicking, it is rather strange to have gen-catch take & body, and then have every call to it use apply; just make it take the body as a single argument

15:19 dbasch: justin_smith: yes, that’s what I meant

15:19 and one of the best things about not using Java

15:19 justin_smith: right, OK

15:19 AeroNotix: amalloy: put your comments on github. I'm doing a release right now but I am more than happy to hear your comments.

15:19 thanks!

15:19 justin_smith: dbasch: so I just misunderstood

15:20 dbasch: I hated it when you had to add a bunch of exceptions to the signature of my methods so that they would compile

15:21 justin_smith: dbasch: or even worse, when library writers deal with said issue by doing a try/catch and you get an exception caught in a place that is not at all useful to your top level code

15:21 or worse yet silently ignored so you have no idea what broke

15:22 s/ignored/discarded

15:22 dbasch: catch {} is one of the worst programming sins imaginable

15:23 SagiCZ1: dbasch: not if you use try catch as control flow..

15:23 riiiight?

15:23 justin_smith: rofl

15:23 dbasch: ~guards

15:23 clojurebot: SEIZE HIM!

15:23 amalloy: speaking of funny checked exceptions, i discovered only the other day that java.lang.AutoCloseable was added in java 7, as like a radioactive version of java.io.Closeable

15:23 justin_smith: ~gourds

15:23 clojurebot: SQUEEZE HIM!

15:23 amalloy: void close() throws Exception

15:24 SagiCZ1: why would you call it radioactive?

15:24 dbasch: throw new Exception(“Don’t close me bro!”)

15:25 amalloy: SagiCZ1: because it can blow up in all kinds of exciting ways

15:25 dbasch: class PandoraBox implements UnCloseable

15:26 SagiCZ1: amalloy: great!

15:27 amalloy: SagiCZ1: i actually only thought of the pun after you asked me. i really called it radioactive because it's even more dangerous to handle

15:27 bristles with menacing spines, etc

15:28 SagiCZ1: one would think that higher version means safer, better, faster..

15:28 justin_smith: amalloy: I think we have our origin story for PLT HULK

15:28 dbasch: “or to throw no exception at all if the close operation cannot fail.” <- this doesn’t make sense to me

15:29 justin_smith: https://twitter.com/plt_hulk

15:29 jkj_: amalloy: do you get AutoCloseable? the documentation is kinda not clear about it... _Auto_closeable... "A resource that must be closed"

15:29 dbasch: it’s autocloseable but you can optionally close it yourself?

15:29 jkj_: "A resource that must be closed when it is no longer needed."... "must"

15:30 justin_smith: jkj_: but who carries the weight of that "must" - the runtime? the programmer? the end user?

15:31 gfredericks: "The Weight of that Must" would be a great name for a Java book

15:31 jkj_: ah. actually there is more in the close method docs.. "This method is invoked automatically on objects managed by the try-with-resources statement."

15:31 hiredman: amalloy: in java 7+ closeable extends autoclosable too

15:31 amalloy: hiredman: indeed, as well it should if autocloseable is going to exist

15:31 TimMc: gfredericks: Or wine-making.

15:32 jkj_: i have a file handle leak problem with a netflow analyser thing that uses nio and mmap... have to figure out how to make sure things are closed

15:32 llasram: Oh -- everything that is Closeable is also AutoCloseable?

15:32 jkj_: happen to know is this try-with-resources is any ways visible in clojuresphere?

15:33 +thing

15:33 llasram: What does it mean for something to be AutoCloseable but not Closeable?

15:33 stuartsierra: jkj_: no

15:33 engblom: http://pastebin.com/0svgfzpP <- How do I make that one to throw something not generic, so I still can interrupt with ctrl-c?

15:33 llasram: Oh, narrows the scope of the checked Exception

15:33 dbasch: llasram: that you can’t call close it manually I guess

15:33 hiredman: with-open should just work though, it will reflectively call the autocloseable .close method I think

15:34 dbasch: but also AutoCloseable doesn’t make sense, it should be AutoClosing

15:34 amalloy: llasram: if it's autocloseable it can throw any type of exception at all

15:34 closeable can only throw java.io.IOException

15:35 other implementations of autocloseable can be narrowed to further specify what they might throw

15:35 llasram: amalloy: Got it -- I'd glanced away for the beginning of the discussion

15:35 But since any method could really throw any exception *shrug*

15:35 It's just being honest!

15:35 dbasch: llasram: no, only unchecked exceptions

15:36 SagiCZ1: i want something like 'every?' but one predicate returning true is enough... is it some?

15:36 justin_smith: engblom: of you really must use an exception to indicate an illegal move, you could reify Throwable or proxy Exception

15:36 stuartsierra: SagiCZ1: `some` without the `?` is what you want

15:36 amalloy: dbasch: no, you can cheat anything in

15:36 llasram: dbasch: Checked exceptions are a fiction of the Java compiler. Any method you invoke could ultimately reach JVM bytecode which throws any exception

15:36 dbasch: amalloy: true

15:37 amalloy: which is what clojure.lang does all over

15:37 SagiCZ1: stuartsierra: thanks, thats confusing

15:37 stuartsierra: yep

15:37 llasram: The good old "chuck" pattern

15:38 jkj_: oh the autoboxin exceptions

15:38 amalloy: iirc http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2010/08/on-removing-java-checked-exceptions-by.html is the technique clojure.lang uses to throw checked exceptions without declaring them, if anyone is interested

15:39 stuartsierra: "sneaky throw" in the source

15:39 justin_smith: engblom: or you could throw an applicable exception - IllegalStateException? dunno about that one though

15:39 puredanger: danielcompton: yt? afaict you have all the necessary groups to edit jira issues

15:40 jkj_: a quick core.async question: how do i (chan 1 FOO) so that [:a :b], [c: :d :e], etc.. become just :a, :b, :c, :d ....

15:40 or that is more of a trans* question

15:40 puredanger: (mapcat identity) ?

15:41 TimMc: The trickier part (shown in the blog post) is *catching* sneaky-thrown exceptions.

15:41 stuartsierra: jkj_, puredanger: just `cat` should do it

15:41 puredanger: oh yeah, what he said

15:42 amalloy: cats are famous for shirking responsibility, though. don't count on what a cat should do

15:42 engblom: Is there a list of all throw-able exceptions somewhere?

15:42 jkj_: stuartsierra, puredanger: thanks... still not quite clear on the detail of mappings and cattings

15:42 amalloy: :D

15:42 amalloy: engblom: the set is unlimited

15:42 justin_smith: $javadoc Exception

15:42 lazybot: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/Exception.html

15:42 TimMc: engblom: You mean all subclasses of Throwable in the current JVM?

15:42 dbasch: engblom: do you mean in the java library?

15:43 * TimMc has directly subclassed Throwable before

15:43 postpunkjustin: engblom: I'm a huge fan of the Slingshot library, which lets you throw whatever you want!

15:43 stuartsierra: Largely superseded by ex-info.

15:44 amalloy: stuartsierra: well. i'm a fan of ex-info, but i don't know that i'd say slingshot supersedes it

15:44 justin_smith: engblom: the above javadoc link has the direct subtypes of Exception that come with the lang, but subclassing (ie. with proxy) is pretty normal, and in clojure slingshot as mentioned above is quite popular

15:44 amalloy: er, the other way around

15:44 stuartsierra: Just throw ex-info.

15:44 dbasch: engblom: what’s the motivation for your question?

15:44 amalloy: ex-info is a low-level tool for throwing maps; slingshot is sugar around catching them

15:44 engblom: That javadoc link seem to be what I want

15:44 stuartsierra: sugar is bad for your teeth

15:44 amalloy: i don't really care for slingshot, but it provides a lot of stuff that is not in ex-info

15:45 engblom: dbasch: I need to throw something that do not sound to strange.

15:45 dbasch: engblom: what’s the context? It won’t sound strange if the context is right.

15:45 gfredericks: amalloy: stuartsierra: thus I made catch-data

15:45 much lighter-weight than slingshot

15:45 dbasch: engblom: e.g. IllegalArgumentException, UnsupportedOperationException, IllegalStateException, all those are self-explanatory

15:45 amalloy: you can suggest not using slingshot (i do too), but it really is not superseded by ex-info/ex-data

15:45 $google gfredericks catch-data

15:45 lazybot: [gfredericks/catch-data · GitHub] https://github.com/gfredericks/catch-data

15:46 stuartsierra: I'm just cranky today.

15:46 technomancy: amalloy: throw+ is superseded; try+ isn't

15:46 dbasch: LineUnavailableException sounds ancient

15:47 gfredericks: PunchCardBentException

15:47 engblom: dbasch: IllegalStateException is what I want :)

15:47 justin_smith: AmbiguousAbacusBeadPositionException

15:47 amalloy: technomancy: welllllll, throw+ includes some misfeatures that are happily not included in ex-info

15:47 it looks like gfredericks has decided to include them in throw-data, though

15:47 * technomancy nods

15:47 TimMc: "Java is unable to process this integer; it contains too many holes."

15:48 gfredericks: amalloy: eh?

15:48 TimMc: amalloy: Locals grabbing?

15:48 amalloy: gfredericks: locals

15:48 gfredericks: I added that later; easy to remove, and not the point of the lib

15:48 amalloy: it is *so bad* to implicitly save all the locals in the exception

15:49 hiredman: MUST NOT bad or SHOULD NOT bad?

15:49 amalloy: i guess i would have to say SHOULD NOT

15:49 engblom: Now I have a new version. Any comments are welcome: http://pastebin.com/F0a6WRVV

15:51 gfredericks: amalloy: just so I can win this conversation I'm going to go remove that misfeature right now

15:51 technomancy: nice

15:51 amalloy: gfredericks: oh interesting, you save them in the metadata instead of the map itself. that is actually only half as bad

15:51 justin_smith: engblom: I guess the string in (IllegalStateException. "Illegal move") helps as a comment, but due to being right next to the clause that catches it, we can easily see that the string doesn't really <do> anything

15:51 gfredericks: amalloy: for printing you mean?

15:51 amalloy: you still have the head-holding issue, but you don't have a printing problem anymore, right

15:51 {blake}: I always strive to be half as bad.

15:51 gfredericks: I hadn't thought of that; got lucky I guess

15:52 amalloy: i remember i had a terrible time tracking down an issue in some code i took over, where i added an infinite seq in the lexical scope of an existing throw+

15:52 technomancy: talk about a heisenbug

15:52 amalloy: and then like...all my exceptions turned into OutOfMemoryError inside of print-method or something

15:53 technomancy: literally doesn't manifest until observed

15:53 gfredericks: it'd be cool to have some sort of opt-in where you can list locals you want to include

15:53 justin_smith: ExceptionInceptionException

15:53 engblom: justin_smith: Thanks, I removed it.

15:53 amalloy: gfredericks: oh! the syntax for it could be like (throw-data {:x 1 :locals {:y 2}})!

15:53 er, (throw-data {:x 1 :locals {:y y}})

15:54 speaking of, a slight endorsement: (flatland.useful.map/keyed [x y z]) expands to {:x x :y y :z z}. a handy tool for any occasion!

15:54 gfredericks: haha

15:55 amalloy: your point being it's easy enough that it doesn't deserve any help?

15:55 amalloy: yes

15:55 gfredericks: you macro minimalists!!

15:55 TimMc: :unsyms

15:55 gfredericks: :unkeys

15:55 amalloy: unless you make it completely implicit, in which case you run into the problems already mentioned

15:55 TimMc: keyed does that too, actually

15:56 TimMc: I guess it would be :unkeys

15:56 amalloy: (keyed :syms [x y z])

15:56 TimMc: (keyed :enums [oh god why])

15:57 amalloy: (keyed :my-car [those hooligans])

15:57 TimMc: technomancy: estikes is spamming :-(

15:57 amalloy: a kinda weird reverse-polish there

15:58 TimMc: I don't understand why they have to be in a channel in order to spam... maybe it helps them avoid detection?

15:58 amalloy: TimMc: to detect active users, i imagined

15:58 "so and so is talking right now, let's PM them"

15:58 technomancy: that's my guess

15:58 amalloy: #clojure really just has the one persistent spammer

15:58 TimMc: Ah, right -- increase the hit rate to reduce total volume.

15:59 justin_smith: amalloy: I wonder what the clickthrough rate is on that stupid link

15:59 amalloy: hah, i hadn't looked at the source for keyed in a while: https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/map.clj#L15-L17 is vintage amalloy, using comp, partial, juxt, and identity all in close proximity

16:00 TimMc: hiredman and Raynes should get their bots coordinated so that if someone not active in the channel sends both the same link, they are kicked.

16:00 gfredericks: they could send a fax to technomancy

16:00 amalloy: TimMc: we'll get right on that as soon as you get someone to give lazybot and clojurebot ops

16:00 dbasch: programming language channels are terrible targets for spammers

16:00 Raynes: We'd just fight over who sends the fax and never actually do it.

16:00 TimMc: amalloy: We need a third bot.

16:00 Raynes: But he'd have to actually speak to me for that to happen, so none of this is feasible anyways.

16:00 :p

16:01 amalloy: some sort of technomancer?

16:01 technomancy: so... how much would it cost to ddos the spammer

16:01 TimMc: technomancy: They might be stealing service from someone innocent.

16:01 amalloy: technomancy: in money, or moral turpitude?

16:01 technomancy: TimMc: then the innocent person would find out

16:01 kitia_: maybe just use an aws

16:01 gfredericks: amalloy: feature removed

16:01 amalloy: (inc gfredericks)

16:02 lazybot: ⇒ 103

16:02 TimMc: turpitude is the name of my next clojure project

16:02 danielcompton: puredanger: it's working now

16:02 gfredericks: speaking of :keys catch-data was a good opportunity to add an additional special key to map destructuring

16:02 puredanger: danielcompton: good, sorry for the delay. the perms are pretty broad which is why they're not enabled automatically.

16:03 danielcompton: that could probably be adjusted, but the time to make implement and debug that vastly outweighs the manual work required currently

16:03 danielcompton: puredanger: just working on a post to the mailing list about that now

16:04 amalloy: gfredericks: you're talking about the :ex key?

16:05 gfredericks: actually, why is throw-data a macro now? it could become a function now that you're not saving locals

16:06 puredanger: danielcompton: the combination of the defaults + adding groups on CA (which Andy Fingerhut does currently) covers virtually everything. Andy or I make a few additional adjustments occasionally, but it's not worth overhauling the world

16:08 gfredericks: amalloy: uuuhm

16:08 amalloy: less stacktrace polution?

16:09 who on earth is going to use a function like that in a higher-order-way anyhow

16:09 bring me that person and I shall ask him or her what he or she is up to

16:10 TimMc: comp

16:10 gfredericks: (comp launch-missiles throw-data)

16:11 TimMc: "*then* we launch ze missiles"

16:11 gfredericks: I try to keep imperative stuff and point-free stuff like totally separate

16:13 amalloy: gfredericks: for sure it is hard to imagine someone using throw-data not in call position

16:13 (map throw-data list-maybe-containing-errors)?

16:13 obviously terrible

16:15 TEttinger: technomancy: what is the main class for a lein-generated uberjar? I'm having terrible trouble getting a JRE bundler (libgdx's packr project) to do anything once it bundles an uberjar

16:15 technomancy: TEttinger: clojure.main if you don't set :main

16:15 TEttinger: is the main class the same as in Manifest.MF ?

16:16 dbasch: seeing Manifest.MF always makes me smile

16:16 technomancy: Manifestfile

16:17 TEttinger: :main perlin.core.desktop-launcher :aot :all

16:17 so that would become perlin.core.desktop_launcher , right?

16:23 danielcompton: Are there three different types of map: PersistentHashMap, PersistentArrayMap, and PersistentTreeMap?

16:24 dnolen_: danielcompton: yes, though the concrete implementations shouldn't matter for most code

16:24 danielcompton: dnolen_: I'm working on fressian encoders so I wanted to make sure I got all of them

16:25 amalloy: danielcompton: there are arbitrarily many though, of course

16:25 dnolen_: danielcompton: then I would check for IPersistentMap

16:25 amalloy: anyone can implement that interface

16:25 every defrecord creates a new thing that's a map

16:26 puredanger: danielcompton: presuming Zach's unrolled collections stuff makes it into 1.8, there will be many concrete impls of the collections

16:33 donbonifacio: is there a func to compare keywords and strings? like (= "p1" :p1)

16:34 puredanger: I think name handles both?

16:34 ,(name "abc")

16:34 clojurebot: "abc"

16:34 puredanger: ,(name :abc)

16:34 clojurebot: "abc"

16:34 donbonifacio: yes, but I don't want to be calling name. wel, I'll just create my own that wraps name

16:37 annelies: Stop calling me names!

16:43 Glenjamin: Is the truffle/graal stuff useful for clojure at all?

16:47 amalloy: huh. the clojure compiler's interaction with synthetic bridge methods surprised me. background: hbase has an interface Query, containing: public Query setFilter(Filter f), and a class Get which implements that while narrowing the return type: public Get setFilter(Filter f)

16:48 if you write (.setFilter ^Get g f), you get a reflection warning: there's actually two methods with the same name and args, one of which is "synthetic". but if you change it to (.setFilter ^Get g ^Filter f), the compiler is perfectly content, even though that didn't actually narrow things down at all: there are still two exact matches

16:49 furthermore, it's happy with (.setFilter ^Get g nil)

16:51 there's always more to learn. i never did really understand bridge methods

16:53 * akkad hunts for a scripting language in a clojure shop

16:59 * kenrestivo just uses bash where needed

17:03 stuartsierra: No one understands bridge methods.

17:04 E.g. http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1243

17:04 amalloy: stuartsierra: after reading a few unhelpful blog posts, i found http://stackoverflow.com/a/5007394/625403 fairly helpful

17:13 ro6: I want to do something a bit unusual with nREPL and I'm wondering if anyone can help me figure it out. I need to remote debug an application running on a remote machine where I don't have control over what ports are open...

17:15 we use Pubnub for communicating with the client applications normally, because that works over the standard ports and I'm wondering if there might be some way to use the nREPL protocol over a Pubnub channel

17:15 puredanger: I have been working off and on for a while on improving vec and comparing its performance vs (into []) in the scope of CLJ-1546

17:16 I just dropped a comment there that might update the folk wisdom of "into is faster than vec" for 1.7 http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1546?focusedCommentId=36428&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-36428

17:17 assuming the patch makes it into 1.7, which I do expect

17:18 I should probably write about a blog about this and share some of the data and other info I have, but I don't have time so I am just dropping it here :)

17:18 cfleming: puredanger: That's interesting, thanks. I was wondering about that after seeing that Kibit suggests converting (into [] ...) into (vec ...)

17:19 puredanger: I don't think that advice was unambiguously true even before this patch

17:19 cfleming: puredanger: I'm hopeful that a lot of these small optimisations, and things like ztellman's unrolled collections, will improve Clojure's speed pretty significantly for common use cases.

17:20 puredanger: No, it seemed like slightly overenthusiastic advice to me, I must admit.

17:21 puredanger: I think Zach's stuff is far more important than this, which is unlikely to be felt until IReduce things are more common. but I do think his can make significant changes. I am excited to dive into it for 1.8.

17:22 hiredman: puredanger: it would nice to have a blog post or something clarifying or just describe the intent behind all the Reduce interfaces and protocols

17:22 * puredanger agreed :)

17:22 hiredman: like, should people still use CollReduce?

17:22 puredanger: maybe post-conj I'll have time to do some of that

17:23 absolutely, you should use CollReduce. It's the primary open system for reducible collection.

17:23 hiredman: so what the heck is with Reduce and ReduceInit?

17:23 puredanger: IReduce is a fast path for things that we can change (thus closed)

17:24 for example, we want ArrayList to be reducible so CollReduce (the protocol) allows to extend to types we don't own

17:24 IReduce is a marker for things we do own, like PersistentList, PersistentVector, Range, etc

17:24 hiredman: so if I am implementing something I can (and should?) use IReduce (or should I use ReduceInit?)

17:24 puredanger: if you can implement IReduce, then do so

17:25 IReduceInit and IReduce now split the arities of reduce (with or without and initial value)

17:25 IReduce extends IReduceInit and has both

17:25 hiredman: I see

17:25 puredanger: I think Rich regrets combining them originally

17:26 I'm not sure that I have it totally sorted in my head which you should prefer if implementing something right now

17:26 hiredman: I can imagine, dealing with both when implementing coll-reduce is a drag

17:27 cfleming: I'd love to see a blog post with some guidance on this, I've never dug into the implementation of all this and it's very confusing from a user POV

17:27 puredanger: sure, would love to do it

17:28 hiredman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHVeyo4W18U

17:28 or the opposite or whatever

17:29 nickmbailey: whats the idiomatic way to do a non lazy (concat…)? just (apply conj…)?

17:30 puredanger: hiredman: more the opposite I think :)

17:31 dnolen_: nickmbailey: into works pretty well

17:31 nickmbailey: assuming you have vectors off course

17:31 nickmbailey: ahh

17:31 dnolen_: nickmbailey: if you have seqs, there's no option beyond concat

17:32 nickmbailey: well, apply conj still works with seqs right?

17:32 hiredman: nickmbailey: why not just use concat and doall?

17:32 puredanger: you could transduce a cat right?

17:33 (I realize that sounds like a bad intro to a joke)

17:33 dnolen_: ,(conj '(1 2 3) 4)

17:33 clojurebot: (4 1 2 3)

17:33 annelies: > Transduction is the process by which DNA is transferred from one bacterium to another by a virus.

17:33 dnolen_: nickmbailey: ^

17:33 annelies: puredanger: out of luck; cats aren't bacteria

17:33 nickmbailey: hiredman: that would work too, but into works in this case

17:34 puredanger: ,(transduce cat conj '((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9)))

17:34 clojurebot: [1 2 3 4 5 ...]

17:36 dnolen_: puredanger: oh heh, yeah now that conj returns [] for arity zero - hadn't thought of that

17:36 ,(conj)

17:36 clojurebot: []

17:36 puredanger: you can get a list too if you like

17:36 ,(transduce cat conj '() '((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9)))

17:36 clojurebot: (9 8 7 6 5 ...)

17:36 puredanger: ha :)

17:37 dnolen_: ah right

17:37 puredanger: ,(transduce cat conj #{} '((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9)))

17:37 clojurebot: #{7 1 4 6 3 ...}

17:37 puredanger: conj is fun

17:38 annelies: What's the difference between transduce cat conj and into?

17:38 dnolen_: annelies: into will try to use transients

17:39 annelies: lemme google that

17:39 dnolen_: annelies: into is now actually defined in terms of transduce

17:39 well the arity where given an xform anyway

17:39 annelies: Ah, I see.

17:45 I'm gonna sleep. Byebye!

17:46 danielcompton: puredanger: thanks for your feedback on the list, I wasn't trying to disrespect Rich's wishes, just trying to offer other ways to create a patch

17:47 mikerod: Would it be considered safe/fine to embed a var object into code generated during macroexpansion?

17:48 e.g. say the macro is: (defmacro embed-var [x] `(list ~(resolve x)))

17:48 called like: (embed-var my-testing-var-name)

17:49 seems fine in returning: (#'user/my-testing-var-name)

17:50 I'm contrasting this to the embedding something like (Object.) into the code returned from macroexpansion

17:50 which doesn't have a clean reader-literal format

17:54 tuft_: does anyone know where i can get the user/clojuredocs function mentioned here: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/594 ?

18:02 verma: I am writing a 3D engine for a specific purpose using clojurescript (displaying point clouds for next iteration of http://plas.io), what the engine renders is completely controls by a state, which is a hash-map, indicating, what cameras are loaded, what point clouds are loaded, what the eye position is, where the camera is looking and other things needed for a scene to render.

18:03 the user sends down a state, which I convert into a runtime-state

18:04 puredanger: danielcompton: no worries :)

18:04 verma: basically the user says, I want buffer x to be added to the scene, this buffer X translates to an action which downloads the buffer and adds it to the scene.

18:04 whenever the runtime state changes a re-render is triggered.

18:05 muck: hi

18:05 verma: since buffer loads are async, I have a cursor (loosely based on om cursors), which can be transacted into, which casuses the re-render

18:05 danielcompton: puredanger: The Clojure community really does appreciate your work, thanks for everything you do

18:06 verma: there may be renders queued up for rendering while I am changing things with the run-time state, which will reflect during the next render cycle

18:07 now, underneath all this, the calls eventually go to webgl, the problem is that some state updates delete buffers

18:08 but the state already queued up for rendering may still refer to it

18:08 hiredman: sounds like you get to write a gc!

18:08 verma: :(

18:08 hiredman: a simple mark and sweep is easy as pie

18:09 https://github.com/hiredman/kvgc/blob/master/src/com/manigfeald/kvgc.clj

18:09 verma: checking

18:10 hiredman, nice!

18:11 hiredman, "Because one day my processes will loose these bonds of physical machinery, to compute using transcendent nominal mechanics outside the boundaries of electrical components so cruelly referred to as being random access, and it seems like having a garbage collector when that happens would be nice."

18:11 nice!

18:11 hiredman: :)

18:11 verma: ok, I can probably use that as inspiration to write something similar

18:12 thanks!

18:12 hiredman: yeah, I very pleased with how it turned out, I ended up using it to do gc of stuff out of embedded sql databases for another project

18:12 but I guess I never pushed the releases to clojars or something

18:14 verma: (inc hiredman)

18:14 lazybot: ⇒ 61

18:15 hiredman: https://github.com/hiredman/graph/blob/master/src/com/manigfeald/graph/gc.clj using the protocol there to gc parts of representations of graphs out of a derby database

18:25 amalloy: mikerod: i wouldn't recommend it, even if it does happen to work. why would you want to?

18:26 mikerod: amalloy: I'm just trying to decide if it was a good or acceptable practice or not

18:26 if an object has a reader printable representation then it is acceptable in generated code though I take it

18:26 ?

18:27 In this case specifically, I was reviewing some code that was wrapping resolved vars into function calls (they were bound to functions)

18:27 so like (defmacro call-var [var-sym] `(~(resolve var-sym)))

18:27 it was not this simple. I just ripped off all the rest of what happened there.

18:28 The resolved vars are used elsewhere in the macro, but I wasn't sure if the suggestion should be to leave the var-sym as-is and not call the resolved var in the code returned.

18:28 e.g. (defmacro call-var [var-sym] `(~var-sym))

18:29 amalloy: i would much prefer the latter of those two

18:29 if nothing else, what if var-sym is a macro?

18:29 that is, it resolves to a macro

18:31 eg, compare ##[(or 1 2) (#'or 1 2)]

18:31 lazybot: ⇒ [1 nil]

18:33 mikerod: amalloy: ah yes, I've seen that before due to the "hidden" first 2 args

18:33 So it is bad to call a macro by its acutal var then

18:33 actual*

18:33 Compiler can't detect it I suppose?

18:34 I see it is just returns the var and then the var is invoked as a fn.

18:34 amalloy: detect what? maybe you call the macro through its var on purpose; it shouldn't stop you. instead, just don't write code that does things you don't want to do

18:35 kzar: Is it possible to transform an element based on it's one of it's attributes using kioo?

18:35 I want to assign a class if a attribute has a certain value

18:36 Oh I guess I could just have two transforms, one to remove the class for all the elements and one to add the class in for the elemnt with the attribute I'm looking for... Sorry - dumb question

18:37 mikerod: amalloy: So macros should be called only through their symbols is what I'm saying

18:37 for normal behavior

18:37 amalloy: yes

18:38 mikerod: interesting

18:38 razum2um: can I manually resolve an url to get matching compojure's handler?

18:38 mikerod: well thanks for the ifo!

18:38 amalloy: functions really should too; vars do some things that would surprise you

18:38 mikerod: info

18:38 hmm I see

18:38 makes sense then

18:38 amalloy: mikerod: for fun, try this: (defn foo [& args] (first args)) (apply foo (range)) (apply #'foo (range))

18:39 (i have a patch filed to fix this behavior, which IMO is a bug, unlike the macro var thing that i consider a feature)

18:41 speaking of which, if this behavior bothers anyone, go upvote http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1423

18:54 {blake}: OK, I'm going cuckoo trying to figure out how to make compojure routing work with a context.

18:54 I've got a simple example: https://www.refheap.com/93325

18:54 And I think I understand what's happening (as explained there) but not why, or how to fix.

19:00 amalloy: {blake}: wrap-context does "hide" the context, because that's the only way it would be useful at all; i think you have to emit a link that contains the context in it. ie, instead of /linked, you have to emit a link to /hello/linked

19:01 gfredericks: or "linked" might work too?

19:01 amalloy: gfredericks: sure, relative links will be fine

19:01 assuming you never need an absolute link

19:01 {blake}: amalloy: OK, so, I clearly don't know what's what. Because I want my code to be agnostic as to where it is.

19:01 mikerod: amalloy: that is interesting

19:01 I'll have to look closer at the Compiler to see what is going on there

19:02 {blake}: I started with relative links, but maybe I screwed them up.

19:02 amalloy: {blake}: indeed, you should be agnostic; you can *find out* where it is by looking at the :context of the request, or something like that

19:02 {blake}: Because that's the obvious handing.

19:02 amalloy: mikerod: it's not the compiler; it's c.l.Var

19:02 verma: swap! says that the passed function should be free of side effects, I get that, if I am holding a pointer to a resource and I want to transactionally release it, what's the best way?

19:02 {blake}: amalloy: Yeah, I went that route, too: Wrapping the route in the context.

19:02 amalloy: {blake}: huh?

19:03 that's fine for handling requests, but you have to also look at what the context is before you emit any absolute links

19:03 {blake}: amalloy: Created a middleware that took the context and prepended the uri with it.

19:03 gfredericks: verma: agents are okay for side-effects

19:03 I don't quite understand what you're doing though

19:04 amalloy: verma: you can swap with a function that doesn't actually do side effects, but instead returns whether it's okay to do side effects

19:05 verma: gfredericks, I want to release a webgl texture which is a part of a state controlled/driven 3D engine

19:05 amalloy, hmmm interesting

19:05 amalloy: something like (let [r (swap! resource (fn [r] (if (:cleaned? r) (dissoc r :okay-to-clean) (assoc r :okay-to-clean true, cleaned? true))))] (when (:ok-to-clean r) (cleanup! r)))

19:06 this guarantees that no matter how many threads are running this code at once, exactly one of them gets the ok-to-clean signal

19:06 modulo awful typos like okay/ok

19:07 hiredman: ,(doc compare-and-swap!)

19:07 clojurebot: eval service is offline

19:07 hiredman: jerk

19:07 (doc compare-and-swap!)

19:07 clojurebot: Titim gan éirí ort.

19:07 mikerod: amalloy: I still don't understand why `(macroexpand-1 '(#'or 1 2))` ;= ((var or) 1 2)

19:08 verma: amalloy, makes sense, thanks

19:08 mikerod: When digging through some Compiler#analyzeSeq

19:08 hiredman: (doc compare-and-set!)

19:08 clojurebot: "([atom oldval newval]); Atomically sets the value of atom to newval if and only if the current value of the atom is identical to oldval. Returns true if set happened, else false"

19:08 mikerod: ohhh

19:08 amalloy: oh, hiredman is probably right. CAS makes more sense than my swap nonsense

19:08 although mine is clever

19:09 mikerod: I do understand it now

19:09 and for the apply thing, I'll look at c.l.Var

19:10 verma: amalloy, I do feel your case applies more for my case, I wouldn't know what the oldval is, I need to figure what it is going to be, so I need a function instead of an old val

19:10 amalloy: verma: well, the idea with CAS is you deref it first

19:11 deref, construct a candidate new value, and then attempt to CAS it

19:11 if the CAS succeeds, you go ahead with your side effects

19:11 if it doesn't, someone else must have gotten to it

19:11 verma: nice

19:12 {blake}: OK, so I now have "/" GET "linked" and another "/linked".

19:12 That is I took out the slash before "/linked" in the HREF.

19:12 This works locally.

19:13 It creates this HTML: <a href="linked"> click</a>

19:14 With the deployed WAR, it's still looking for "localhost:8080/linked" instead of "localhost:8080/hello/linked".

19:15 (I started by deleting the slash in (GET "/linked") but that doesn't work locally.

19:26 erikcw: I have a tree shaped data structure that I need to walk until I find a specific branch (identified as a map containing the key :id). I’ve played with clojure.walk, but can’t seem to make it stop and return the branch when it is found (it just keeps going to the bottom of the tree) — am I using the wrong tool?

19:27 dbasch: erikcw: what’s wrong with recursively traversing the tree yourself until you find it?

19:28 erikcw: dbasch: Nothing — just wanted to know if it was possible with clojure.walk.* or zippers, or some other Clojure goodie…

19:28 dbasch: btw, if you need to traverse the tree perhaps that’s the wrong structure for what you have

19:28 hiredman: sure zippers will do it

19:28 clojure.walk not so much

19:28 cfleming: justin_smith: You're working on updating lazybot, right?

19:29 NoCreativity: Hello

19:29 erikcw: hiredman: Thanks — I’ll go read up

19:29 justin_smith: cfleming: I patched lazybut up to work with clojure 1.7, and the latest irclj, yes

19:29 cfleming: justin_smith: Are you accepting feature requests?

19:29 amalloy: ~lazybot is a lazybut

19:29 clojurebot: 'Sea, mhuise.

19:29 dbasch: although it may be harder with zippers than just traversing the tree yourself

19:30 NoCreativity: I'm having some problems trying to consume a :edn type request. does anybody has samples of a POST|PUT request that consumes :end? Thanks in advance

19:30 justin_smith: cfleming: well, feel free to submit on noisesmith/lazybot if you like (or on raynes/lazybot and I will likely find it there too)

19:30 cfleming: justin_smith: There's a ton of useful information in here, which never makes it out and isn't really archived in any useful form.

19:30 justin_smith: or discuss here less formally of course :)

19:30 Raynes: cfleming: Well, we're all accepting feature requests.

19:30 Lazybot isn't an abandoned project.

19:30 erikcw: dbasch: I’m stuck with a tree. It is actually a Reagent “component” data structure

19:30 cfleming: I know it's logged, but trawling through there is a pain.

19:31 justin_smith: cfleming: ahh, publishable knowledge db

19:31 Raynes: :)

19:31 cfleming: Raynes: Great :)

19:31 amalloy: i am accepting feature requests but just proxying them to Raynes

19:31 Raynes: I'm accepting feature requests and proxying them to justin_smith.

19:32 We have a knowledge database thing that sucks.

19:32 cfleming: I think it would be useful to have a command to give a range of timestamps, and perhaps the people involved in the conversation and a subject line, and take those items and publish them somewhere.

19:32 justin_smith: amalloy: I assume that thing with privmsg triggers wasn't solved

19:32 amalloy: justin_smith: i didn't touch it, no

19:32 technomancy: Raynes: hm; how do you teach lazybot facts?

19:32 amalloy: $learn technomancy super-smart

19:32 lazybot: My memory is more powerful than M-x butterfly. I won't forget it.

19:32 amalloy: $whatis technomancy

19:32 lazybot: technomancy is super-smart

19:32 Raynes: Excuse me.

19:32 By knowledge base, I mean: "key value store"

19:32 technomancy: cool. can that be invoked inline like eval can?

19:33 Raynes: No.

19:33 Adding inline invocations is harder than adding commands.

19:33 amalloy: technomancy: once upon a time, there was a feature that any lazybot command could be invoked inline

19:33 Raynes: And more likely to cause painful plugin interactions.

19:33 technomancy: sure, and more likelihood of accidental triggering

19:33 cfleming: Might get a little unwieldy, something like /store 13:27:58 13:32:17 justin_smith cfleming Raynes amalloy "lazybot archiving"

19:33 justin_smith: amalloy: I got that fixed, but it is not yet re-enabled I don't think

19:34 cfleming: Maybe it could just publish gists or something

19:34 Raynes: justin_smith: Oh, I can reenable that.

19:34 cfleming: We don't do gists here son.

19:34 amalloy: justin_smith: the embedded plugin is enabled right now

19:34 justin_smith: Raynes: amalloy: that's just a question of including the plugin in the config, yeah

19:34 amalloy: oh!

19:34 OK

19:34 Raynes: You in the wrong place

19:34 cfleming: Raynes: refheaps, I mean.

19:34 Raynes: Damn right.

19:34 This guy knows what's up.

19:34 cfleming: Don't know what I was thinking.

19:35 Anyway, I think that would be really useful - there's a lot of knowledge dumped here that never gets out

19:35 dbasch: Raynes: github is making refheap seem prettier every day :P

19:35 technomancy: oh maaaaan. I saw some pretty hideous clojure highlighting earlier today

19:35 Raynes: I haven't updated refheap's pygments in like two years.

19:35 technomancy: red background on numeric literals; just the worst

19:36 Raynes: like a google groups competitor, not getting worse over time may be all you need for a competitive advantage.

19:36 amalloy: technomancy: i can't imagine what rule they're applying that makes that seem like a good idea

19:36 justin_smith: does $#ping#$ work?

19:36 anybot: justin_smith: Ping completed in 0 seconds.

19:36 justin_smith: @part #clojure

19:36 anybot: Bai!

19:37 justin_smith: Raynes: do you have a different symbol setup for embedded commands?

19:37 Raynes: Do I? Good question.

19:37 amalloy: i don't think it's even configurable

19:38 dbasch: Raynes: I was thinking exactly what technomancy said

19:38 justin_smith: amalloy: you're totally right, it isn't

19:38 technomancy: like when librelist came out I was like "what is the point of this; who needs it" and then google groups got worse with every passing year, and now I'm like "this is so cool"

19:38 Raynes: justin_smith: It isn't configurable.

19:38 Just to be clear.

19:39 justin_smith: right

19:40 * technomancy dies

19:40 technomancy: https://github.com/technomancy/atreus/blob/master/atreus.rkt#L157

19:41 red background on *brackets*

19:41 hiredman: hah, oh lord

19:41 technomancy: http://p.hagelb.org/sound-of.gif

19:42 amalloy: i wonder if the red brackets are the styling for "syntax error" and they're just no good at parsing clojure

19:42 technomancy: amalloy: well

19:42 that's not clojure

19:42 but yeah

19:47 justin_smith: Raynes: amalloy: weird, git tells me that your embedded.clj is the same as mine, but it clearly is not working with lazybot

19:48 dbasch: technomancy: it looks much better if you tell them it’s clojure, I wonder why they have such crappy highlighting for Racket. https://gist.github.com/dbasch/0a45cae2409e5e965641

19:49 technomancy: truly inscrutable

19:59 kenrestivo: ##(doc compare-and-swap!)

19:59 lazybot: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: compare-and-swap! in this context

20:00 catern: librelist is cool thanks for mentioning it

20:00 amalloy: compare-and-set!

20:00 technomancy: catern: it's got its problems, but it's much better than the alternatives

20:00 catern: well, i host my own mailing lists :)

20:01 but it looks like something i can recommend to others

20:01 technomancy: catern: the main problem is you can't have a "welcome" type page explaining what the mailing list is about and how to join

20:01 which is pretty annoying, but

20:01 at least it's not google groups

20:03 catern: technomancy: as in you don't want to have to throw that page up somewhere yourself? because surely most open source projects already have websites

20:03 (oh wait, they have github pages now. well, anyway)

20:03 kenrestivo: *cough* gnu mailman *cough*

20:03 technomancy: catern: well, you can't just point someone at the archives without some explanation

20:04 you need one page to explain it and a separate page for the HTML archives. having them in one place would be better, or at least the ability to link from the archives to the primary web site

20:04 kenrestivo: I don't trust myself with port 25

20:04 catern: ah. hmm. true.

20:06 technomancy: catern: also it's abandonware, but that is not as bad a problem as you'd expect

20:06 danielcompton: cfleming: why did you decide to host the cursive list yourself?

20:06 curious

20:06 cfleming: danielcompton: Because I pretty much hate Google groups

20:07 danielcompton: cfleming: bahaha

20:07 cfleming: danielcompton: Plus, control your data etc etc

20:07 dbasch: google groups have become what yahoo groups used to be

20:07 cfleming: danielcompton: I'm gradually degooglifying my life

20:07 technomancy: (dec google)

20:07 lazybot: ⇒ 1

20:08 cfleming: danielcompton: I looked at librelist but it explicitly states it's for OSS projects only

20:08 catern: opinions are divided it appears

20:08 cfleming: danielcompton: I like the look of Lamson (which LL is based on) but I couldn't get it working when I tried.

20:09 danielcompton: they all look like a bag of hurt to run yourself

20:12 cfleming: In the end I settled on mlmmj, which I really like

20:12 Does everything I want, and nothing that I don't.

20:12 dbasch: you could have a subreddit, I think you can have a subreddit for anything

20:12 technomancy: heh

20:12 dbasch: even things that should not exist

20:12 amalloy: subreddits are as cheap as uh...core.async channels

20:12 cfleming: Actually, I'd like a web archive, but I'll roll that myself one day.

20:13 technomancy: https://www.reddit.com/r/MenonUnstableLadders/

20:13 https://www.reddit.com/r/bezels

20:13 dbasch: technomancy: http://www.reddit.com/r/ooer

20:13 cfleming: "Too much champher, not enough bezel?"

20:13 I thought I had first world problems.

20:14 amalloy: dbasch: http://www.reddit.com/r/wowthissubexists/ (no guarantees about whether this is safe for work, although it claims to be)

20:14 technomancy: dbasch: O_O

20:15 danielcompton: NOT GOOD WITH SOCKS PLZ HALP???

20:15 lazybot: danielcompton: Yes, 100% for sure.

20:15 cfleming: lazybot is so obliging.

20:15 dbasch: http://www.reddit.com/r/shittyprogramming

20:17 danielcompton: Just add this line at the beginning of main():double speed;that will tell the compiler that you want it extra fast. It should produce a notable improvement in execution speed.

20:18 amalloy: danielcompton: long time; since i heard that joke

20:18 kenrestivo: in cisco, land, there was "> ip enable more bandwidth", IIRC

20:19 danielcompton: http://i.imgur.com/Me04jVB.jpg

20:21 dc_: danielcompton: lmao

20:22 if i'm using java interop and i want to import java packages, how to i ensure that they're in my classpath when i run my code?

20:23 i've imported a library with lein that uses these same java packages

20:23 kenrestivo: it may pull them in transitively. try lein tree and see?

20:23 TimMc: danielcompton: ...

20:23 It's brilliant.

20:24 TEttinger: dc_: how are you running your code? lein uberjar should pack those java packages into the jar

20:24 dc_: and the JAR that contains these packages is referenced in my :resource-paths and :jvm-opts in project.clj

20:24 kenrestivo: k, i'll try that

20:24 danielcompton: dc_: lein tree :deps to show the transitives

20:24 amalloy: lein deps :tree

20:24 danielcompton: lein derps :tree

20:24 what amalloy said

20:27 dc_: TEttinger: `lein uberjar` successfully compiled the classes and packed them into a jar, but i'm still having trouble running the repl

20:28 or actually, it ran in the console

20:35 also, i'm working with the aparapi-matrix library, which integrates with the java aparapi lib for matrix ops using the GPU. but when i enter the REPL and enter my namespace, none of the methods i've defined are recognized.

20:36 instead i get a wierd error that says i have a compilation error in a temp file

20:36 like this one: /private/var/folders/tv/cj4wg9x57xjbd2w91cp5r77c0000gn/T/form-init8574980338355462022.clj:1:1062

20:36 what does that mean?

20:38 dbasch: dc_: refheap the whole error

20:39 amalloy: dc_: (ns foo) doesn't load any of the code defined in foo; that's the job of (require 'foo). it just puts you into the namespace foo so that you can start defining it

20:40 dc_: dbasch amalloy: it started working. using `lein uberjar` and `lein run` must have done something. now i can access the methods in my core namespace inside the repl

20:41 thanks for helping though

20:43 this aparapi-matrix library seems awesome though

20:44 so far it seems to be working well with core.matrix, but i haven't tried much more than the aparapi-matrix examples

23:37 smnirven: this probably isnt the appropriate forum for this question, but does anybody know what happened to clojure-fill-docstring in clojure-mode?

23:37 justin_smith: smnirven: if nobody here knows, you may want to try #clojure-emacs

23:38 smnirven: perfect

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