#clojure log - Nov 05 2014

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0:00 sm0ke: i am not sure if that macro can be written at all

0:01 as macros are compile time things, and i am trying to tie it up with runtime artifact

0:01 prove me wrong please

0:01 justin_smith: no, that's perfectly correct. all it gets at compile time is a, so it has to fail at compile time

0:02 sm0ke: ugh so sad, i wanted it so badly

0:05 i think may be a macro which writes a macro can do this?

0:08 justin_smith: would the macro writing macro know the number of args at compile time?

0:09 sm0ke: no but after its expansion it would right?

0:09 justin_smith: the expansion happens at compile time

0:11 sm0ke: see my pathetic attempt here https://www.refheap.com/92736

0:12 now `bar` knows params# after its expanded right?

0:13 justin_smith: sm0ke: the part you removed wasn't the place where the error happened

0:13 sm0ke: but bar* still is seeing p as symbol :/

0:14 no but now `bar` can act upon `n` at least it more than jsut a symbol

0:14 justin_smith: ~n evaluates to the symbol

0:14 clojurebot: Titim gan éirí ort.

0:14 justin_smith: ~n

0:14 clojurebot: I don't understand.

0:15 sm0ke: no it does not its unquote inside `

0:15 try macroexpand-1

0:15 justin_smith: right, and when it unquotes, it gets the argument

0:15 which is a

0:16 ,(clojure.core/let [params__5208__auto__ (clojure.core/repeatedly a clojure.core/gensym)] (user/bar* params__5208__auto__))

0:16 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

0:16 justin_smith: like I said, bar is a

0:16 sm0ke: ugh yes

0:16 justin_smith: oops, sorry about that clojurebot

0:16 err I mean n is a

0:17 sm0ke: yea for macro expand but while eval its a value

0:17 justin_smith: so why does it get the same error then?

0:17 sm0ke: so instead of (bar* params#) if you put params# you can see a list of two symc

0:18 on evaluating (bar 2)

0:19 i mean (bar a) err

0:36 andyf: arrdem: Figure out why clojure.parallel is missing?

0:36 arrdem: andyf: I pinged puredanger and he didn't have a good answer. I haven't chased it.

0:37 andyf: I?d recommend sending an email to clojure-dev and/or Tom Faulhaber, who may be able to figure it out.

0:37 if he has time

0:38 I don?t know, but it reminds me of this bug, which may not be related at all: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-130

0:47 arrdem: justin_smith: https://github.com/clojure-grimoire/lein-grim

0:48 justin_smith: 0.2.0 is the latest, the svg is old

0:48 justin_smith: I see an svg that says 0.2.0

0:49 arrdem: caching is bullshit man

0:49 justin_smith: "eventually consistent"

0:50 arrdem: woah, ,, to force indent in cond, I like it

0:50 arrdem: justin_smith: dude I love that trick

0:50 justin_smith: somehow this is the first I have seen it

0:51 I think I'm going to try to hack on pink tomorrow

0:52 after I get some day-job crap out of the way

0:52 * arrdem remembers he has class in the morning

1:00 arrdem: andyf: posted

1:00 andyf: thx

1:01 TEttinger: arrdem: are you one of them thar grad students who shows up to class if it fits his schedule?

1:01 arrdem: TEttinger: dude I'm an undergrad :P

1:01 TEttinger: nice

1:01 so you need to work!

1:01 arrdem: I am working. On clojure stuff!

1:01 fuck this homework shit

1:02 TEttinger: I mean in general, there's no "grades don't matter" stuff like PhD-level classes

1:18 kenrestivo: my dumb core.async question of the day: is there a way to pull things out of a channel *only* if there's something in there? and return nil if nothing is available?

1:19 rather than blocking/parking? take! does not do what i want: if there's nothing available right now the callback queues and executes later when something is stuffed in.

1:19 arrdem: well.. shit. I just broke 1.4.0 compat due to needing clojure.edn

1:19 oh well

1:20 kenrestivo: who.... uses clojure 1.4.0 in 2014? :-)

1:21 arrdem: https://cognitect.wufoo.com/reports/state-of-clojure-2014-results/

1:21 ~4% of Clojure users :P

1:21 poor sods

1:21 kenrestivo: it's like those android charts showing 10% of users are on 2.3

1:22 arrdem: yes, yes it is

1:22 * kenrestivo ponders abandonding core.async and just using j.u.c queues

1:23 arrdem: kenrestivo: I suspect that's a core.async abstraction fault... the entire idea is that take! is blocking, right?

1:23 kenrestivo: take! is async

1:23 arrdem: yes that thing

1:23 kenrestivo: it's got a callback... and the callback queues

1:23 arrdem: "magic"

1:24 kenrestivo: what i want is "as of this moment, give me EVERYTHING in the queue, and if nothing is there, just nil"

1:24 dbasch: I know a large company that uses 1.2 in production

1:25 arrdem: kenrestivo: doesn't look like there's a way to do that actually.

1:25 justin_smith: I'm reading the code for pink - excited to start playing with it tomorrow

1:25 kenrestivo: no, no there isn't.

1:25 arrdem: kenrestivo: but this is me scanning the docs for the first time so... IANTBALDRIDGE

1:26 kenrestivo: i should ask questions during the day east coast usa time when the cognitecters are about

1:26 arrdem: ask on the ML

1:26 kenrestivo: meh, who uses email anymore? :-)

1:26 4% of users?

1:26 justin_smith: people use the mailing list via email?

1:26 I thought it was just a google group thing

1:26 arrdem: I do... T_T

1:32 TEttinger: arrdem: I use clojure 1.4 by necessity in lazybot, since clojail is limited to 1.4 last I checked

1:32 in my lazybot plugins i mean

1:32 justin_smith: TEttinger: dude, my lazybot update uses 1.7-alpha

1:32 I had no issues with clojail

1:32 TEttinger: :D

1:33 I'll spend some time tweaking to update to your version when you release

1:33 justin_smith: fingers crossed, lazybot will have my updates and the new clojure version soon

1:34 TEttinger: if you have any trouble just ask, the translation should be straightforward (basically all the hooks have new keywords thanks to the new irclj)

1:34 TEttinger: ok

1:35 thanks, justin_smith

1:35 (inc justin_smith) ; for good measure

1:35 lazybot: ⇒ 117

1:36 arrdem: &::T/foo

1:36 lazybot: java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::T/foo

1:36 arrdem: the hell...

1:36 ambrosebs: ping

1:36 TEttinger: ,::T/foo

1:36 clojurebot: #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::T/foo>

1:36 justin_smith: ,::a/foo

1:36 clojurebot: #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::a/foo>

1:36 TEttinger: ,:T/foo

1:36 clojurebot: :T/foo

1:36 justin_smith: :a/foo

1:37 TEttinger: ,::T

1:37 clojurebot: :sandbox/T

1:37 justin_smith: yeah, double colon means use this ns

1:37 arrdem: right

1:37 https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=%3A%3AT%2Fspecial-collect

1:37 justin_smith: double you tee eff

1:37 arrdem: ikr

1:37 tried to do a `lein grim core.typed` and that totally killed it

1:38 justin_smith: how did that even compile?

1:38 arrdem: hell if I know

1:38 it's late, I'm turning in.

1:38 TEttinger: it requires [clojure.core.typed :as T]

1:38 justin_smith: (require '[clojure.string :as s])

1:38 ,(require '[clojure.string :as s])

1:38 clojurebot: nil

1:38 justin_smith: ,:s/foo

1:39 clojurebot: :s/foo

1:39 justin_smith: ,::s/foo

1:39 clojurebot: :clojure.string/foo

1:39 justin_smith: AHA

1:39 I had forgotten about that corner

1:39 so yeah, that's totally legit

1:40 arrdem: okay... so why is that killing lein-grim with an "invalid token exception"

1:40 java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::T/special-collect

1:40 justin_smith: if T is a local alias, that should work (as shown above)

1:40 arrdem: https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/blob/be6ffe4bd029afffec9256514cdf644bfdee2e71/module-check/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/typed/analyze_clj.clj#L16

1:41 https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/blob/be6ffe4bd029afffec9256514cdf644bfdee2e71/module-check/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/typed/analyze_clj.clj#L47

1:41 looks legit to me

1:41 TEttinger: is it not importing the right lib?

1:42 ,::s2/foo

1:42 clojurebot: #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::s2/foo>

1:42 TEttinger: ,(require '[clojure.string :as s2])

1:42 clojurebot: nil

1:42 TEttinger: ,::s2/foo

1:42 clojurebot: :clojure.string/foo

1:42 TEttinger: order could matter here

1:43 arrdem: damnit I know what's happening here

1:43 fuck

1:44 stupid friggin evaling reader

1:44 justin_smith: ,(read-string "::s2/foo")

1:44 clojurebot: :clojure.string/foo

1:44 arrdem: okay so here's what's happening

1:44 that code loads just fine

1:44 justin_smith: but if you only read and did not eval the require

1:44 arrdem: then when I go to grab the source

1:44 the source reader reads from a different context

1:44 than the loader reads

1:45 bang

1:45 justin_smith: oh, right

1:45 * arrdem mutters darkly

1:45 justin_smith: so you need in-ns

1:45 arrdem: yep

1:45 &(bean *ns*)

1:45 lazybot: ⇒ {:name sandbox12103, :mappings {sorted-map #'clojure.core/sorted-map, read-line #'clojure.core/read-line, re-pattern #'clojure.core/re-pattern, keyword? #'clojure.core/keyword?, unchecked-inc-int #'clojure.core/unchecked-inc-int, val #'clojure.core/val, ProcessBuilde... https://www.refheap.com/92739

1:45 arrdem: &(.name *ns*)

1:45 lazybot: java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! class clojure.lang.Namespace is bad!

1:45 justin_smith: wtf

1:46 ,(.name *ns*)

1:46 clojurebot: sandbox

1:50 justin_smith: OK, this is some seriously low-level code. Clearly it's only in Clojure so that the more abstract composition logic and the synth can be in the same language.

1:52 https://github.com/kunstmusik/pink/blob/master/src/pink/filters.clj#L281 I mean look at that shit

1:55 yedi: i'm using clojurescript in my webapp, but I want to be able to build individual js files for each page of the site. currently lein cljsbuild just builds the entire client side app into one js file.

1:56 is there a way to be able to like build separate js files for specific namespaces without having to create multiple cljs projects/

1:58 fairuz: yedi: isn't one file is better than multiple? :)

1:58 faster loading

1:58 yedi: maybe i guess with caching

1:58 but the initial page load will still suffer

1:58 TEttinger: barf, justin_smith

2:00 yedi: fairuz: actually i think om server side rendering would solve my problem

2:00 i just don't want to #breaktheweb

2:02 alandipert: yedi: you may consider loading the script up front on your splash or login page, but with the ‘defer’ attribute

2:02 yedi: what is the defer attr

2:02 googlin real quick

2:02 alandipert: yedi: http://stackoverflow.com/a/3982619 is the best descr i could find

2:04 there are still reasons to have separate js tho, the big one for me is not leaking stuff to people who aren’t logged in

2:04 yedi: ah tho im fucked if i use client side rendering *cough* all these react frameworks

2:04 but i guess that was already a problem and server side rendering needs to be solved

2:05 arrdem: okay got it, I just needed to bind *ns*

2:05 that's enough for now

2:09 sm0ke: so i found a way to do it, but now i am stuck in another problem

2:26 razum2um: how can I access project-structure (which is passed to lein plugins) in runtime repl?

2:26 sm0ke: why does `eval` loses context?

2:28 i mean ##(let [a 1] (eval (list 'print 1 'a)))

2:28 lazybot: java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! eval is bad!

2:34 razum2um: sm0ke: see chapter 8 from joy of clojure - http://take.ms/aHmVu

2:38 sm0ke: i dont see anything regarding eval

2:38 razum2um: subpart?

2:39 oh got something

2:39 thanks razum2um

2:39 arrdem: &::T/foo

2:39 lazybot: java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::T/foo

2:42 razum2um: sm0ke: but it's valid only if you know keys and values at compile time, if this is unpredictable you can use a hack - stash bindings into a dynamic and generate let-bindings to get functions which resolve vars using this dynamic - the graeat example is https://github.com/GeorgeJahad/debug-repl/blob/master/src/alex_and_georges/debug_repl.clj#L68

2:43 sm0ke: wow

2:43 arrdem: if anyone feels motivated to write a patch on core... http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1579

2:43 sm0ke: some ugly hack

2:44 razum2um: sm0ke: is the only way if bindings keys are known in runtime only

2:44 sm0ke: that *locals* thing has a problem of concurrency though?

2:44 what if multiple thread calls evals-with-locals

2:45 razum2um: sm0ke: don't feel so until you share mutable things there

2:48 sm0ke: you can also try (ThreadLocal.) as a value for dynamic

2:50 sm0ke: weird how that contextual-eval is working!

2:51 i think its a con, for simple values sure it will work, but i think you put a fancy class there and you will get cant embedd object into code

2:54 razum2um: sm0ke: exactly, java obkects will complain about being inserted into code textually like in a macro

2:55 sm0ke: but you can save a qualified symbol and then use find-var

2:55 sm0ke: then whats the whole point of the fancy macro i can always use `mylocal` instead of `'mylocal`

2:58 i mean he could have written it simply as (eval (list '+ a b))

2:58 pointless example imo

2:58 razum2um: sm0ke: with macro you can pass bindings from same let block, these have no qualified name

2:59 (let [x 1 y [1 2] z (contextual-eval {:x x} (some)))

2:59 sm0ke: yep ok agreed it shows eval is contextless

3:00 but not really helpful as a generic `contextual-eval`

3:00 razum2um: yes, joy of clojure seem to explain this, but i forgot

3:00 sm0ke: it will not work in most cases

3:01 which brings me back to 0

3:01 razum2um: sm0ke: perhaps real implementation of eval with context will face same concurency problems as debug-repl hack

3:01 sm0ke: what is the problem you're solving?

3:03 sm0ke: its actually like this, given a number you have to give back a function with same arity

3:03 https://www.refheap.com/92743

3:03 the `bar` function works here, but its a toy case

3:03 so lets say i am passing a object along with `n`

3:04 which cannot be embedded in the eval list, it will fail

3:06 oh you have to change 'n to n for this to work, i was editing it

3:07 razum2um: why do you even need this arity, not just & args?

3:08 sm0ke: yes i know about & args, its just a requirement for another macro i am writing

3:08 razum2um: doh :) macro in macro in macro :)

3:09 sm0ke: hurm weird problem i know

3:15 razum2um: i think i have a neat solution, hold on

3:18 razum2um: https://www.refheap.com/92744

3:36 hyPiRion: bbloom: I do, in a way. http://hypirion.com/musings/ – but noted, I'll get on it this evening

4:04 * clgv is biten again by the non-transactional `require` :(

5:43 kungi: How can I create an internal maven repository for my company and use it together with leiningen? Are there any tutorials you would recommend?

5:58 razum2um: kungi: look at :repositories in profiles.clj and add like this ["clojars" {:url "https://clojars.org/repo/&quot;}]

6:24 kungi: razum2um: thank you

6:27 clgv: kungi: there are several options for the server part

6:28 kungi: I use Apache Archiva. There is also Artifactory and at least another prominent one I dont recall right now

6:31 kungi: clgv: I found Nexus as well

6:32 clgv: kungi: ah right

6:32 kungi: archiva was easy to setup

6:33 kungi: clgv: Archiva looks nice! standalone distribution with jetty included => great

6:33 clgv: kungi: yes. the only thing that took time was that I was not familiar with redirection through apache to reuse its SSL setup

6:34 kungi: but that's probably not an issue if the repository is in your LAN

6:34 kungi: clgv: I solved that problem by delegating all our SSL stuff to nginx.

6:35 clgv: kungi: I already had an apache running and didn't use nginx so far...

6:35 kungi: clgv: nginx was the first web server where I was able to understand the config ... so I started using it and never stopped :-)

6:36 Actually I don't like doing "sysadmin stuff"

6:36 clgv: kungi: yeah apache config sometimes feels like voodoo

6:36 kungi: clgv: More like indian rain dancing than voodoo :-D

6:36 clgv: kungi: you are always better of when you have an existing working config snippet that you can adjust there ;)

6:47 the-kenny: The clojurescript repl situation is sooo complicated :/ It's really a pity.

6:48 CookedGryphon: the-kenny: I thought that, until I found weasel, much simpler imo

6:48 the-kenny: CookedGryphon: I use weasel exclusively, I'm talking about the stack under it

6:48 CookedGryphon: ah

6:49 the-kenny: there's weasel on top of austin on top of piggieback on top of nrepl

6:49 CookedGryphon: didn't realise weasel used austin under the hood

6:50 the-kenny: hm you may be right now that I think of it

6:50 Still, I'm searching for one (actually two) bugs in that stack

6:50 One that prevents stuff from being printed in the REPL before I send *any* nrepl message from Emacs

6:50 CookedGryphon: yeah, I'm looking at the deps and it doesn't seem to use austin or piggieback

6:50 the-kenny: it provides another transport for piggieback

6:51 while piggieback itself uses clojure.browser.repl

6:51 Glenjamin: if you try and run weasel without piggieback, it errors

6:51 CookedGryphon: ah, ok

6:52 the-kenny: Glenjamin, CookedGryphon: Do you have the issue of stuff not being printed in the REPL with print-fn set to :repl?

6:52 CookedGryphon: I've never made use of that feature, I've always just had the js console open and printed to that

6:52 the-kenny: hm :/

6:52 Glenjamin: i had austin steal my console.log at onepoint

6:54 the-kenny: Right now I'm pretty lost where to report this issue. It's not weasel, as it seems to (print) the stuff it receives over the websocket just fine. So it's either piggieback or tools.nrepl that fails to deliver (or capture) the print-event before any other message arrives over the nrepl connection

6:55 I wish I could just throw away everything and start right at the bottom, implementing a 'lein ws-repl' that doesn't use piggieback under the hood. But that's a mammoth project after looking at the code of all those things

6:56 with a second nrepl-server *just* for cljs you could just have to nrepl connections from cider: one for cljs, one for clj. Although that would mean rewriting stuff there too

7:01 engblom: Please anyone take a look at this: http://pastebin.com/TfV0Xat5

7:02 This works for some time until too many files are open. How do I get a continuous buffer instead of rereading the file each time?

7:03 This code is for reading mouse actions

7:05 raspasov: hey guys, do you know if it's possible to get information about a Clojure's data structure in terms of memory consumption, i.e. get how many Kb/Mb is a map (get-size-in-kb my-map)

7:08 clgv: raspasov: that's difficult similar to determining allocated memory of any Java object. there are (not that easy) ways to accomplish this

7:10 raspasov: yup, makes sense, ballpark estimates are OK, I'm trying to design a buffer pool allocator, so that if my cached objects start exceeding X megabytes, I would start removing them from memory

7:11 the key would be doing this without a significant hit on performance

7:19 clgv: raspasov: oh just a limit on the number would not suffice?

7:19 engblom: I just solved my own problem so nm my question

7:19 raspasov: you mean a limit on the number of cached objects stored?

7:20 clgv: raspasov: determine allocated memory usually requires debug capabilities of the JVM, so performance is likely not that good

7:20 raspasov: yeah, if they consume similar amounts of memory that would work

7:21 raspasov: clgv: thanks for the input, I see, I'll search around some more, worst case a rough estimate of how big the objects are just setting a limit on the total count might be better/easier

7:21 clgv: and simpler, which is always good :)

7:21 clgv: :)

8:41 csd_: Is it possible to write some macro m such that {(m)} could be considered a valid hashmap? E.g. m expands into two forms prior to reader looking for them?

8:43 hyPiRion: csd_: you can do `{~@(m) ~@()}

8:43 csd_: oh that's clever, i like it

8:43 hyPiRion: But it's probably better to do just (apply hashmap (m))

8:49 engblom: What is the most simple way to send a message to port 9000. I do not need to read the response. What library would you use?

8:49 Kneiva: engblom: what kind of message? curl

8:49 engblom: Kneiva: telnet

8:50 I want to make a program sending messages in the same way as I could do with telnet.

8:53 Kneiva: engblom: maybe http://stackoverflow.com/a/10447539/1790621

8:57 engblom: Thanks

9:25 the_danko: morning!

9:26 fairuz: the_danko: night

9:30 daniel__: the_danko: good afternoon

9:31 the_danko: fairuz daniel_ how are things going today?

9:32 fariuz daniel_ i am doing a little core async learning from lispcast

9:37 samflores: what's the simplest way to verify whether a vec is "contained" or not in another vec?

9:37 (subvec? [1 2 3] [1 2]) ;; => true

9:37 (subvec? [1 2 3] [1 3]) ;; => false

9:44 clgv: samflores: there is nothing simple built-in

9:45 samflores: you can partition the bigger vector with respect to the size of the smaller one

9:47 ,(defn subvec? [a b] (some #(= % b) (partition (count b) 1 a)))

9:47 clojurebot: #'sandbox/subvec?

9:47 Bronsa: samflores: (defn subvec? [v1 v2] (some #{v2} (partition-all (count v2) 1 v1))) not terribly efficient but it's the shortest solution I could think of

9:47 clgv: ha!

9:47 clgv: ,(subvec? (range 5) [2 3])

9:47 clojurebot: true

9:47 clgv: Bronsa: :P

9:47 3secs :D

9:48 Bronsa: yeah, efficient solutions are more sophisticated

9:48 Bronsa: oh yeah, no reason to use partition-all in thi case

9:49 clgv: samflores: you have a pattern matching problem in case you want to look up efficient algortihms in the standard literature (Cormen...)

9:53 samflores: clgv :(

9:57 ,(every? identity (map = [1 2 3] [1 2])) ;; that's why I'm in love with FP

9:57 clojurebot: true

9:57 samflores: ,(every? identity (map = [1 2 3] [1 3]))

9:57 clojurebot: false

9:58 samflores: suddenly it just clicks :)

9:58 EvanR: :t identity

9:59 ,(identity nil)

9:59 clojurebot: nil

10:00 clgv: samflores: that only works for special cases like the one you provided

10:00 samflores: the version Bronsa and I provided above work for all cases

10:00 hyPiRion: always a bit suprised that every? isn't vararg

10:00 clgv: ,(every? identity (map = [1 2 3] [2 3]))

10:00 clojurebot: false

10:00 clgv: samflores: ^^

10:01 hyPiRion: wished I could do (every? = [1 2 3] [4 5 6])

10:01 Bronsa: hyPiRion: yeah me too

10:01 clgv: hyPiRion: so why not just write a jira+patch for it?

10:02 EvanR: .oO( all? (zip-with =) or something

10:02 samflores: clgv I got disconnected and lost your replies, but I really need to verify the subset is at the beginning

10:02 clgv: samflores: that only works for special cases like the one you provided while the version Bronsa and I provided above work for all cases

10:02 ,(every? identity (map = [1 2 3] [2 3]))

10:02 clojurebot: false

10:02 clgv: samflores: see above a counterexample for your implementation ^^

10:06 samflores: yeah, I know its false. but it fills my requirement of the subvec being at the beginning of the supervec (wich I didn't mention earlier)

10:06 Bronsa: samflores: so you don't need to find the subset, you just have to find if your vector starts with some elements

10:06 clojurebot: Gabh mo leithscéal?

10:08 EvanR: ,(every? true? '())

10:08 clojurebot: true

10:08 EvanR: ,(every? false? '())

10:08 clojurebot: true

10:09 samflores: Bronsa right. I asked for a subset because I thought there was something already in the clojure.core for it

10:10 EvanR: whats the opposite of every?

10:10 samflores: I expected to exists something like .indexOf

10:10 hyPiRion: not-any?

10:10 samflores: *exist

10:11 EvanR: do not see some, exist, any, etc

10:11 at least some? doesnt do what im talking about

10:11 hyPiRion: some then.

10:11 EvanR: ah ok

10:11 ,(some? true '())

10:11 clojurebot: #<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core/some?>

10:11 EvanR: ,(some? true? '())

10:11 clojurebot: #<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core/some?>

10:11 hyPiRion: ,(some true? ())

10:11 clojurebot: nil

10:11 EvanR: ,(some true? '())

10:11 clojurebot: nil

10:11 EvanR: ,(some false? '())

10:11 clojurebot: nil

10:12 EvanR: k

10:12 clgv: that's why "some?" is such a good naming choice for that function :P

10:13 EvanR: it almost serves as the opposite of every?

10:13 ,(some false? '(true true false))

10:13 clojurebot: true

10:13 EvanR: confused

10:14 robholland: true

10:14 ;)

10:14 hyPiRion: What do you mean by opposite in the first place?

10:14 clgv: not really you have to distinguish on two levels. shall the predicate be true or false for success and how many elements of the list must fulfill that: at least one or all

10:15 EvanR: ,(or '(false false true true))

10:15 clojurebot: (false false true true)

10:15 EvanR: is there a simpler function that is just the and or or of all the bools

10:16 ,(false? false)

10:16 clojurebot: true

10:16 EvanR: ok i was thinking some returned the found value

10:16 Bronsa: ,(some identity [1 2 3])

10:16 clojurebot: 1

10:16 Bronsa: it does

10:17 EvanR: only if you us identity or a collection

10:17 ,(some false? '(true false))

10:17 clojurebot: true

10:17 Bronsa: ,(some inc [1 2 3])

10:17 clojurebot: 2

10:17 hyPiRion: EvanR: (every? true? x) == "(apply and x)" and (some true? x) == "(apply or x)"

10:17 EvanR: hyPiRion: ok

10:17 hyPiRion: well, if you assume every element is either true or false.

10:17 EvanR: ,(apply and '(true true true false))

10:17 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/and, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

10:17 Bronsa: yeah usually some identity is more useful

10:18 clgv: haha only if `and` where a function ;)

10:18 hyPiRion: EvanR: That's why I wrote (apply and x) in quotes :)

10:18 clgv: hyPiRion: you tricked him! confess! :P

10:18 EvanR: ,(= (some true? x) "(apply or x)")

10:19 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

10:19 hyPiRion: I think you need to take me a bit more figuratively.

10:22 SagiCZ11: .

10:26 EvanR: ,(= [1 2 3] [1 2 3])

10:26 clojurebot: true

10:26 EvanR: ,(= [1 2 3] [1 2])

10:26 clojurebot: false

10:27 EvanR: another way to do it ;)

10:29 ,(map vector [1 2 3 4] [\a \b \c \d])

10:29 clojurebot: ([1 \a] [2 \b] [3 \c] [4 \d])

10:29 EvanR: ,(map vector [1 2 3 4] [\a \b \c])

10:29 clojurebot: ([1 \a] [2 \b] [3 \c])

10:29 EvanR: ,(map vector [1 2 3] [\a \b \c \d])

10:29 clojurebot: ([1 \a] [2 \b] [3 \c])

10:35 EvanR: is there a recursive let construct

10:35 justin_smith: EvanR: what does that mean?

10:35 verma: I expect this call to return me a channel which always outputs 1 no matter what the source had, doesn't seem to be working, I get the original value, what am I missing?

10:35 https://www.refheap.com/92761

10:35 justin_smith: ,(let [a 0 b (inc a) c (inc b)] c)

10:35 clojurebot: 2

10:36 EvanR: thats the non recursive let

10:36 verma: the source chan values are what I get, I was hoping the transducer will be applied

10:36 justin_smith: OK what do you mean by recursive

10:36 EvanR: ,(let [a (inc b) b 3] a)

10:36 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: b in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

10:36 EvanR: the lhs variables can be referenced in any rhs

10:36 justin_smith: EvanR: flet is the closest we have but it can only define functions

10:36 it just doesn't exist

10:37 EvanR: only being able to define functions makes sense in a schemy-like context

10:37 whats the word, eager

10:37 tbaldridge: verma: I'd need to see more of the source code, nothing seems to be putting data into the channel you're creating?

10:38 justin_smith: EvanR: there is nothing in clojure that can use things in definitions that are not yet defined - you need something like declare or resolve for vars, and there is simply no option in a let block

10:38 EvanR: i know about declare, but does that work locally

10:38 justin_smith: like I said

10:38 it's for vars, let bindings are not vars

10:39 tbaldridge: verma: yeah, that code won't work, You're creating a channel via chan, but then nothing is putting data into it. Async/pipe returns the 2nd argument (the 'to' chan)

10:39 EvanR: looks like flet is a no no in clojure this recommends letfn http://clojure.org/lisps

10:39 justin_smith: EvanR: you can sometimes pull something off with a promise / deliver

10:39 EvanR: sorry, I keep doing that

10:39 EvanR: justin_smith: are vars local?

10:39 justin_smith: no

10:39 they are globals

10:39 EvanR: ok

10:39 justin_smith: I keep calling letfn flet, my bad

10:40 same with calling promise delay (I caught myself this time0

10:40 EvanR: letfn, all is right with the world

10:40 well, except that tail calls might bust the stack?

10:40 justin_smith: ,(flet [(a [] (inc (c))) (c [] 3)] (a))

10:40 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: flet in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

10:41 justin_smith: ,(letfn [(a [] (inc (c))) (c [] 3)] (a))

10:41 clojurebot: 4

10:42 justin_smith: EvanR: tail calls could bust the stack, and it's a bit silly to have to turn everything into a function

10:42 EvanR: it is

10:43 clgv: $source letfn

10:43 lazybot: letfn is http://is.gd/6UUJnn

10:44 clgv: ok that one dives pretty straightforward into the compiler ;)

10:44 EvanR: theres a recursive let strategy for eager language, i read about once

10:44 justin_smith: clgv: yeah, I think letfn* is a special form, and basically part of the compiler

10:45 EvanR: which crashes if what you wrote is nonsense, otherwise works

10:45 clgv: no question ;)

10:45 justin_smith: EvanR: in common lisp let is recursive and parallel, let* is sequential like ours

10:46 EvanR: right i think the paper i read was an improvement over some lisp where it was recursive but might lockup if you what you wrote makes no sense

10:46 but i dont know

10:46 justin_smith: wait, not recursive - but they have letrec

10:46 it's been a while

10:46 let - parallel (no cross ref) let* - linear (only back ref) letrec (full cross ref)

10:47 EvanR: whats parallel let

10:47 runs everything in parallel?

10:47 justin_smith: that means all values are effectively calculated in parallel

10:47 EvanR: funky

10:47 justin_smith: no reference to any other value in the binding form is allowed

10:47 verma: tbaldridge, thanks! yeah I messed up the argument order

10:53 EvanR: letfn gives you almost what you can do with local function defs in javascript

10:53 if you move vars to an enclosing normal let in either case, then its the same

10:53 (js vars)

10:53 non functions

10:55 vars that use the functions have to go below, so a little more tricky than full letrec

11:24 sdegutis: Do you find that your Compojure apps have an top-level routing namespace that has a ton of :requires in the (ns) form for all sorts of other routes?

11:26 Mine's like 30 lines long, and I'm wondering if that's a sign of bad design.

11:26 weavejester: I expect it depends on how complex your application is

11:27 If you have 30 types of routes, your app is doing 30 different things, presumably.

11:27 nonuby: what abboout doing something like (:require [acme.web sales deals user-admin pwd-change]) etc..

11:28 not sure if it works, but was exploring same problem yesterday https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/require

11:28 sdegutis: My concern is more for the fact that I have to require them all. Perhaps I should be dynamically finding them instead?

11:28 justin_smith: yuck

11:29 kungi: sdegutis: Yes my compojure app has a routing namespace containing "tons" of routes.

11:29 sdegutis: justin_smith: What's bad about this idea?

11:30 justin_smith: sdegutis: I should be able to look at the namespace that creates the server and see exactly where the code defining routes can be found.

11:30 sdegutis: Why?

11:30 clojurebot: why not?

11:30 EvanR: its way easier to understand code that has references to what its using

11:31 justin_smith: sdegutis: because I read code, and fix other people's code

11:31 sdegutis: clojurebot: useless retort.

11:31 clojurebot: Excuse me?

11:31 EvanR: rather than just names

11:31 simple scripts is different from a huge codebase

11:32 in ruby (rails) the norm is to not have any requires anywhere for anything

11:32 sdegutis: justin_smith: But "follow the namespaces linked directly above in the (ns) declaration" is only one convention. Another could be "embed routes in any sub-namespace ending with '-routes'" instead.

11:32 EvanR: the assumption is that "everything" has been imported everything, this is somehow supposed to make things easier

11:32 everywhere*

11:32 justin_smith: sdegutis: I don't want to waste my time learning a new set of conventions for each project I work on, and remembering which convention each one used

11:33 sdegutis: if I come to a new codebase, or a codebase I wrote a decent time ago in the past, I want to be able to figure out what happens where without reverse engineering some kind of magic

11:33 sdegutis: justin_smith: That's an unfounded exaggeration. These could be the two major conventions that all apps use, which would invalidate your concern.

11:33 justin_smith: If library "foobar" became very popular and uses the second convention, you'd know to look for either one or the other.

11:33 justin_smith: sdegutis: I'll agree when all apps use the convention, until then no

11:34 sdegutis: So far I've only seen apps that use the (ns)-based convention.

11:34 The only argument I understand so far is EvanR's.

11:34 justin_smith: sdegutis: a big part of why I use clojure is we have a very small number of conventions, I don't want to learn a new dsl every day

11:35 sdegutis: justin_smith: That doesn't mean we have no conventions. The convention of (defroutes) has already become standardized even though it's effectively a DSL.

11:35 EvanR: auto import of thing named foo works, until it doesnt

11:35 justin_smith: sdegutis: I don't use defroutes

11:35 EvanR: though i dont think were talking about that

11:35 nonuby: sdgeutis, how about routes.cljs builds a list of other routes from admin-routes.clj contact-routes.clj deal-routes.clj etc.. not sure if correct but something like (apply routes (concat (adminroutes/routes) (dealroutes/routes))

11:35 sdegutis: justin_smith: Clojure community is very conservative about adopting new conventions, and that's probably good. But I don't think that has to mean we stop adopting new ones altogether.

11:36 EvanR: whats wrong with modules just importing what it uses

11:38 technomancy: EvanR: it's a bit tedious if you don't use slamhound

11:38 EvanR: dang

11:39 sed-utils: nonuby: You mean dynamically instead of in the (ns) declaration?

11:39 EvanR: technomancy: installing

11:40 justin_smith: sed-utils: one of the primary bonuses to clojure is that in a given namespace I can figure out where each value came from. Auto loading magic subverts this.

11:41 sed-utils: EvanR: I imagine Ruby's "auto require the entire universe" is probably difficult, especially with Ruby being more prone to conflicting module/submodule names. But in this very simple hypothetical route-finder example, I can't really see much that can go wrong it.

11:41 justin_smith: sed-utils: I don't think it's about conservatism - this is something that has evolved in clojure - we were once ok with :use, and we decided it was not explicit enough. Most languages have some kind of implicit / global / eager namespace alteration and I like that clojure at least avoids it.

11:42 sed-utils: justin_smith: I suppose we'll have to disagree about how valuable Clojure's explicit symbol tracing is. I find it very useful for simple functions like yaml/read-string or json/read-string, but for very redundant and highly-patternized names like route vars, it's not hard to find those in a project without the explicit require.

11:43 EvanR: sed-utils: i dont think there are many conflicting module names, in fact no body uses modules qualified because everything is dynamically infused into existing classes, which themselves are never named. this issue is not being able to understand what source code you have to go find on github to understand a given word in the app code

11:43 sed-utils: Btw I'm sdegutis; just changed nicks to make it easier to read, type, and autocomplete.

11:43 EvanR: invisible stuff is hard to reason about

11:44 sed-utils: The one argument I have against an implicit route-finder is that the precise ordering of your routes would be hard to control.

11:44 clgv: EvanR: you mean like dark matter?

11:45 EvanR: dark code is another thing entirely

11:47 sed-utils: I have seen some very confusing Rails apps in the past, and I agree that it can quickly become very difficult to find something, especially if you're not using something like Sublime Text's "find symbol in project" feature.

11:47 EvanR: rails and code of many libraries in ruby

11:47 finding a symbol may not help because the symbol may be dynamically installed

11:47 sed-utils: But the Clojure code I've seen is a little too far on the explicit side, apparently simply for the sake of trying to avoid the problems an implicit infrastructure causes.

11:48 EvanR: Yes, I'm very much against the idea of dynamically generating methods and classes, and especially of using method_missing.

11:49 EvanR: before deciding that some code is not worth typing, and therefore should be omitted, consider if its important, if so, find a way to auto type it like that slamhound

11:49 another case this reminds me of is the automatic local variable assignments in php

11:49 i dont like assigning local variables, so i use an unpack command to assign a bunch of locals from a map, easy

11:50 now you cant read the code, but at least i didnt have to type anything

11:51 technomancy: EvanR: I guess there's two types of boilerplate: one is bad because it's annoying to type and one is bad because it's annoying that it even exists

11:57 justin_smith: to quote a random thing I saw on twitter: "In my experience, hardest part of reading others' code isn't understanding code you're looking at, it's *finding* the right code to look at."

11:58 that's why I don't like :use, don't like implicit namespace alteration of any kind

11:58 technomancy: also think of reading via the web or from a diff vs reading inside your editor with cider or whatever

11:58 justin_smith: right

11:59 sed-utils: justin_smith: Right on. Especially in Ruby, where people like to literally just hide code and call it "refactoring" or "abstraction".

11:59 technomancy: it's not so bad with the latter because you can just M-., but that's not the only context in which code is read

12:00 justin_smith: technomancy: m-. also interrupts my reading flow - often I want to know "what namespace is this coming from" as a contextualizer, without visiting the namespace

12:00 * technomancy nods

12:00 justin_smith: also, my cider is borked and m-. doesn't even work right now :(

12:01 sed-utils: I liked Sublime Text's version of that feature, but Emacs's paredit.el is just much better than ST's.

12:01 But it looks to be improving, so maybe some day soon I can switch.

12:04 TimMc: justin_smith: Emacs needs tooltips. :-)

12:04 justin_smith: TimMc: it has them, they are tricky to use

12:05 TimMc: clojurebot: emacs is "it has them, they are tricky to use"

12:05 clojurebot: 'Sea, mhuise.

12:05 justin_smith: TimMc: emacs needs well designed elisp programs, and a better elisp that would facilitate them, so my swank / nrepl / cider isn't always broken

12:05 (inc TimMc)

12:05 lazybot: ⇒ 77

12:06 technomancy: TimMc: eldoc isn't enough?

12:06 TimMc: I don't even know what that is.

12:06 justin_smith: technomancy: I think he meant tooltips over a symbol showing its provenance

12:06 TimMc: but it sounds like Spanish

12:07 csd_`: justin_smith: what about use :only?

12:07 technomancy: justin_smith: I mean using the minibuffer to display them specifically

12:07 justin_smith: TimMc: it would be nice if we did not fall into the java/ide tarpit, where things are readable and usable but only if you use some tool that fixes all the warts

12:07 csd_`: require :refer :) and judiciously, sure

12:08 TimMc: I'd like for a printout of code, or code viewed on github, to make sense

12:08 TimMc: yeah

12:09 Provenance... "This symbol was typed into a buffer, saved to disk, copied into a git commit, pushed to a server, downloaded to your browser, and copied to a buffer."

12:09 justin_smith: I meant as in "where was it defined"

12:09 TimMc: :-)

12:10 technomancy: a printout!

12:10 I like the idea.

12:10 justin_smith: technomancy: I love reading things on paper

12:10 technomancy: justin_smith: do you use page breaks in your code too???

12:10 lazybot: technomancy: How could that be wrong?

12:10 EvanR: can i get a hardcopy of that? thanks

12:10 justin_smith: sometimes pencil marks on paper can do things that are very inconvenient to do with a computer

12:10 technomancy: sometimes :)

12:10 technomancy: let's be ctrl-l buddies

12:11 justin_smith: ok

12:11 technomancy: o

12:11 justin_smith: (inc )

12:11 Glenjamin: paper is great for random access, but terrible for modification

12:11 lazybot: ⇒ 1

12:11 justin_smith: Glenjamin: but very nice for annotation, which can inform design or future modification

12:12 amalloy: guys that is super-wasteful of paper. i am trying to irc, and now a bunch of near-blank pages are pouring out of my printer

12:12 justin_smith: (inc amalloy)

12:12 lazybot: ⇒ 186

12:13 justin_smith: related http://www.twittertape.co.uk/

12:15 EvanR: your printer works?

12:15 amalloy: justin_smith: i thought it was claiming to need no paper as well. i was quite confused

12:15 justin_smith: hah

12:15 probably a thermal printer?

12:16 technomancy: I almost bought one of those

12:16 wanted to build a GPS system for my car that printed out directions as you went

12:17 sadly while it's super easy to get coordinates, navigation is several orders of magnitude more difficult

12:17 amalloy: technomancy: like, after you drive to your mom's place, it prints out directions saying how you went, so that you can give them to the next person?

12:17 that sounds amusing and i will be sad if you just meant it prints out directions for you

12:18 technomancy: I won't spoil your amusement then

12:21 EvanR: ,(set? #{})

12:21 clojurebot: true

12:21 EvanR: ,(unset? #{})

12:21 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: unset? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

12:22 technomancy: ,(def unset? (complement set?))

12:22 clojurebot: #'sandbox/unset?

12:22 technomancy: ,(unset? #{})

12:22 clojurebot: false

12:22 technomancy: my work here is done

12:22 * technomancy rides off into the sunset

12:23 EvanR: ,((complement (constantly true)) 0)

12:23 clojurebot: false

12:23 EvanR: noice

12:27 stupid ctrl W in xchat not backspacing

12:27 amalloy: ,((((constantly complement) true) set?) #{0})

12:27 clojurebot: false

12:28 justin_smith: seems relevant to the state of my emacs "5) Complex systems run in degraded mode." "14) Change introduces new forms of failure." http://www.ctlab.org/documents/How%20Complex%20Systems%20Fail.pdf

12:29 EvanR: number 5 is hitting a lot of nails on the head it hurts

12:30 justin_smith: ,(((((constantly (constantly (constantly (constantly true))))))))

12:30 clojurebot: true

12:30 gfredericks: reiddraper: the new shuffle generator seems to require a vector but doesn't say so in the docstring

12:35 EvanR: is into lazy

12:35 TimMc: justin_smith: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/engineering-safer-world

12:35 justin_smith: no

12:35 TimMc: into is the opposite of lazy

12:35 nathan7: into is a reduction operation, it cannot be lazy

12:35 TimMc: it is laziness's archenemy

12:36 EvanR: it is frustrating to me the map output of my into prints halfway before crashing on cannot create ISeq from Character

12:36 justin_smith: TimMc: in fact, let's rename lazy-seq to out-of

12:36 EvanR: pprint

12:36 not sure what its complaining about, since the print does not complete

12:41 amalloy: EvanR: your situation is thus far somewhat vague, but my guess is that you have a non-lazy collection (produced by into) containing within it unrealized lazy seqs; when you try to print the whole thing, those inner ones blow up

12:42 EvanR: blah

12:43 arrdem: technomancy: ping

12:43 nestastubbs: gnus

12:43 doh

12:43 emacs fail

12:44 technomancy: arrdem: sup

12:45 arrdem: technomancy: leinigen plugin deps injection halp

12:45 technomancy: https://github.com/clojure-grimoire/lein-grim/blob/master/src/leiningen/grim.clj#L8

12:45 technomancy: rule 1: don't

12:45 rule 2: (for experts only) do with great reluctance

12:46 sed-utils: rule 3: do only with great regret?

12:46 rule 4: don't?

12:46 technomancy: works for me

12:46 arrdem: why is this a plugin?

12:47 Glenjamin: austin does that, it's really really really confusing

12:47 arrdem: technomancy: because I need to do source paths introspection in he src mode

12:47 technomancy: other than that it could just be a script

12:47 technomancy: arrdem: why can't you just scan the classpath for entries that are directories?

12:47 arrdem: technomancy: checkouts for one

12:47 Glenjamin: i'd rather just be told to add a dep to deps, and add a plugin to plugin - than have the plugin add magic deps

12:47 technomancy: arrdem: lein with-profile production run -m grimoire.main

12:48 arrdem: checkouts and tests are only in the default profile

12:48 strip them out and you're good

12:49 arrdem: don't love that answer but it'd work...

12:49 technomancy: arrdem: if you have to alter the project map, doing it through profiles that ship with the plugin is the way to go

12:49 because it means that the user can override them

12:50 merging in a map that's hard-coded inside the plugin means you get zero transparency and you have to reinvent your own override mechanism, if you even bother with overriding

12:50 EvanR: thus

12:50 ,(into {} "booya")

12:50 clojurebot: #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Character>

12:50 EvanR: mentally noting that this error means "tried to convert a string into a map"

12:51 arrdem: technomancy: okay so I guess you'd do :aliases {"grim" ["run" "-m" "grimoire.doc"

12:51 EvanR: at least possibly

12:51 technomancy: arrdem: right, exactly; typing that whole thing out would get tedious

12:51 arrdem: technomancy: okay so I guess you'd do :aliases {"grim" ["run" "-m" "grimoire.doc" :project/group :project/name :/project/version]}

12:51 then args get appended

12:51 and away you go

12:51 technomancy: declarativity ftw <3

12:52 you could make a plugin that just assocs that alias into the project map =)

12:52 EvanR: ,(map? {})

12:52 clojurebot: true

12:52 mgaare: EvanR: technically it means "tried to convert a string into a seq"

12:52 Glenjamin: (doc into)

12:52 clojurebot: "([to from] [to xform from]); Returns a new coll consisting of to-coll with all of the items of from-coll conjoined. A transducer may be supplied."

12:52 arrdem: whelp that sure solves my inability to keep the artifact version in sync between two places in the source tree

12:52 amalloy: mgaare: no it doesn't

12:52 tried to convert a *character* to a seq

12:52 Glenjamin: ,(seq "a")

12:52 clojurebot: (\a)

12:52 Glenjamin: ,(seq (seq "a"))

12:52 clojurebot: (\a)

12:52 EvanR: technically it means exactly what it says which is monumentally unhelpful by itself

12:52 mgaare: amalloy: ah yes, right you are.

12:52 Glenjamin: erm

12:52 oh right

12:52 ,(map seq (seq "a"))

12:52 clojurebot: #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Character>

12:53 EvanR: especially since it tried to do this later when i printed out the nested map

12:53 * arrdem wanders off to rethink his life

12:53 Glenjamin: or i guess technically

12:53 justin_smith: EvanR: how is "a character is not a seq" unhelpful?

12:53 Glenjamin: ,(conj {} (first (seq "abc")))

12:53 clojurebot: #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Character>

12:53 technomancy: arrdem: I really need to get this better documented

12:53 Glenjamin: thats what's happening in into ^^

12:53 technomancy: having this approach get better-documented would alleviate a lot of frustration

12:54 arrdem: technomancy: I mean... that I or whoever the hell can drop in IRC and ask is pretty good docs IMO

12:54 technomancy: 10/10 support

12:54 technomancy: hehe

12:54 EvanR: justin_smith: because the character in question, which was in a string, since i wasnt dealing with characters at any point, was invisibly nested somewhere in my data which is itself mostly invisible, since i have not a good understanding of its form, and that the error wasnt triggered at the place where i actually tried the conversion

12:54 mgaare: justin_smith: one just has to remember that anything that seqs a string creates a seq of characters, otherwise it's confusing. "where did this character come from?"

12:55 EvanR: i have to do this in ruby, a lot of conversion error messages have a more likely explanation "tried to convert a string into a map"

12:55 Glenjamin: ,(into [] "abc") ; works

12:55 clojurebot: [\a \b \c]

12:55 Glenjamin: ,(into {} "abc") ; expects the argument to be a seq of pairs, so fails

12:55 clojurebot: #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Character>

12:55 EvanR: yeah so wtf

12:56 oh it tries to do seq twice

12:56 Glenjamin: ,(into {} [1 2 3]) ; it's like trying to do

12:56 clojurebot: #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>

12:56 Glenjamin: ,(into {} [[:a 1] [:b 2] [:c 3]]) ; instead of

12:56 clojurebot: {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3}

12:56 Glenjamin: and yes, the error message sucks

12:56 justin_smith: ,(into {} '((a 0) (b 1))) ; another fun variation

12:56 clojurebot: #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>

12:57 Glenjamin: does the stack trace show that it's conj that's complaining?

12:57 not sure if that'd help

12:57 EvanR: Glenjamin: at the very end of this trace its clojure.lang.RT.seqFrom

12:57 Glenjamin: (source into)

12:57 $source into

12:57 lazybot: into is http://is.gd/jIBW7I

12:57 EvanR: i didnt see any of my actual code in the trace which is frustrating

12:58 mgaare: EvanR: yeah, it calls seq twice - once to turn the argument into seq, and then again on each element to try to turn it into something that can be a MapEntry

12:58 EvanR: so i need to dynamically determine if the thing can be converted into a map with into {}

12:59 "if the first element can be converted into a map entry" -_-

12:59 mgaare: EvanR: you need to know the "shape" of your data regardless

13:00 justin_smith: EvanR: in practice, I only use into {} when the thing came out of a hash-map

13:00 mgaare: ,(apply hash-map "abcd")

13:00 clojurebot: {\a \b, \c \d}

13:00 justin_smith: EvanR: like if you map on a hash map, and return each entry, into {} is great there

13:00 sed-utils: But I heard it's inefficient.

13:00 mgaare: that works for "flat" things. (into {}) is for seqs of 2-tuples

13:00 EvanR: this is a datomic entity map, and it needs to be a normal map to work with other maps in a diff

13:01 justin_smith: ,(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (inc v)]) {:a 0 :b 1 :c 2}))

13:01 clojurebot: {:c 3, :b 2, :a 1}

13:01 amalloy: justin_smith: really? i use into/{} all the time on stuff that didn't come from a map

13:01 it's like the best way to make maps

13:01 mgaare: EvanR: have you looked at the new datomic pull api? it's helpful for that

13:01 justin_smith: amalloy: after generating each entry in some other way? OK

13:02 EvanR: mgaare: yeah this looks about right

13:05 mgaare: looks rather new

13:05 mgaare: EvanR: just released 10-28

13:06 EvanR: i have an older version of datomic installed because the latest one was crashing or something...

13:06 blah

13:07 sed-utils: EvanR: I've used (into {} datomic-map) many times.

13:07 EvanR: And I cringe each time.

13:08 EvanR: What version of Datomic are you using, and what for?

13:08 mdrogalis: sed-utils: The new pull API should help that, at least some.

13:08 amalloy: justin_smith: i just did a little searching, and it turns out i don't actually do it *that* often in real code, but i see some stuff like (into {} (for [x xs] [x (f x)]))

13:08 EvanR: sed-utils: 0.9.4894

13:08 sed-utils: mdrogalis: I'm sorry, which library is this API part of?

13:08 EvanR: Oh, okay. I'm using 0.8.4218

13:09 EvanR: heh

13:09 justin_smith: amalloy: like a more flexible zip-map

13:09 sed-utils: Honestly I just want to use Postgres.

13:09 mdrogalis: sed-utils: Latest release of Datomic.

13:09 amalloy: justin_smith: i don't like that comparison: i hate building maps like that with zipmap

13:09 (zipmap xs (map f xs)) is gross to me

13:09 sed-utils: But the Board of Directors really wants us using Datomic, so we'll probably never use Postgres :(

13:10 mdrogalis: Things I don't usually hear, heh. ^

13:10 EvanR: ah yes board of directors making decisions about database implementations

13:10 justin_smith: amalloy: s/more flexible/less gross/ maybe?

13:10 amalloy: i found another one: (into {} (for [[k v] m :when (f k v)] [k something-else]))

13:10 justin_smith: agreed that zipmap coming from two maps on the same data is gross btw

13:11 sed-utils: mdrogalis: Neat. I wonder about the Pull API's efficiency.

13:11 amalloy: justin_smith: i just don't see the point of comparing it to zipmap. it's a way of accomplishing a task that zipmap isn't good for

13:11 justin_smith: OK

13:11 amalloy: why not call it a more specialized reduce?

13:11 sed-utils: EvanR: Our Board of Directors is two very-senior and still-active coders.

13:11 justin_smith: amalloy: that's the *typical* use of zipmap that I have seen

13:11 EvanR: that explains a bit more

13:11 sed-utils: And very respected in the programming community.

13:11 justin_smith: and yes, it is gross

13:12 amalloy: i choose to remove such uses of zipmap from my memory, and so the only ones i have seen are in like csv parsers: (map #(zipmap headers %) data-rows)

13:12 EvanR: sed-utils: im new to datomic, some of the blurbs make sense, some of these tools surrounding it dont make sense, and in the end who knows if its really web scale

13:12 justin_smith: amalloy: also, that other one is exactly the case I was talking about (into {} is natural if you just iterated across a map and made new entries)

13:12 sed-utils: EvanR: The only difficulty I have had with Datomic Free is that it kills the GC super badly.

13:13 I had to do some ugly hacks to make the site stop completely dying day after day.

13:13 amalloy: justin_smith: i guess so. "came from a map" was unclear to me, because the data i'm putting into the map actually is not map entries from some other map

13:13 EvanR: sed-utils: thats absurd

13:13 sed-utils: That said, I'm not a devops person, and while I can write some slick Clojure, I have no idea how to configure a JVM.

13:13 amalloy: but now that you say it, the way i intrerpreted your statement doesn't make any sense

13:13 technomancy: arrdem: let me know if the alias approach works well for grimoire. I have tried to think through the use cases but haven't put it through the paces with some of the latest changes yet myself.

13:14 arrdem: technomancy: lol kk I'll do a test 0.3.0 of lein-grim later today and let you know how it shakes out

13:16 EvanR: well after lein depsing the latest version of datomic, vim hangs when trying to reload

13:17 mdrogalis: "depsing". Mmmmm.

13:18 EvanR: requiring my namespace from the lein repl hangs

13:18 going back to the old version and using into

13:18 csd_: Is it possible to expand a macro within the binding section of let

13:19 Glenjamin: i'd like to turn {:a true :b false :c true} into [:a :c] - currently conj-ing a vector in reduce-kv - anyone got a better idea?

13:19 csd_: (defmacro foo [] '`a) (let [(foo) :bar] a)

13:19 TimMc: csd_: Yes... if you wrap the let in another macro. :-P

13:19 csd_: how do you mean

13:20 TimMc: Somethign that preprocesses the let form.

13:20 EvanR: Glenjamin: off the top of my head id do a filter keys followed by keys

13:20 TimMc: I bet amalloy_ could do some magic with symbol-macrolet.

13:20 csd_: TimMc: sounds like a headache

13:20 TimMc: yep

13:21 csd_: it seems to me that if there were a way to give macros execution priority that you could solve it too

13:21 Glenjamin: EvanR: you mean like (->> {} (filter second) (map first)) ?

13:22 EvanR: im not sure exactly what ->> {} does

13:22 technomancy: when in doubt, macroexpand

13:23 Glenjamin: is that an answer to ->> or the let question?

13:23 mi6x3m: hey clojure, is it customary to define dummy vars in test namespaces in order to test something made to run on vars?

13:23 like a dummy function

13:23 sed-utils: Umm..

13:23 perplexa: somehow i always read Ganjaman ;p

13:24 Glenjamin: It's like Benjamin, but with Glen :p

13:24 TimMc: It's the answer to "What is Glen short for?"

13:24 perplexa: glen's jammin!

13:24 sed-utils: Just like Annie is short for Annielia.

13:25 perplexa: ;p

13:25 schmee: Glenjamin: (for [[k v] m :when v] k)

13:25 Glenjamin: oh right, for

13:25 i always forget about for

13:25 TimMc: M-x for

13:25 s/for/butterfly/

13:27 Glenjamin: (inc schmee)

13:27 lazybot: ⇒ 1

13:27 schmee: woohoo!

13:27 I lost my virginity

13:27 Glenjamin: ,(defn class-set [m] (string/join " " (for [[k v] m :when v] k)))

13:27 schmee: or something

13:27 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: string, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

13:27 Glenjamin: meh, whatever

13:27 it works \o/

13:29 EvanR: i am so not used to vim hanging

13:30 Glenjamin: ,(str :thingy)

13:30 clojurebot: ":thingy"

13:30 Glenjamin: always catches me out :(

13:32 schmee: ,(name :thingy)

13:32 clojurebot: "thingy"

13:32 schmee: Glenjamin: ^

13:32 Glenjamin: yeah, i just always forget :)

13:33 sed-utils: $karma sdegutis

13:33 lazybot: sdegutis has karma 6.

13:33 sed-utils: $karma sed-utils

13:33 lazybot: sed-utils has karma 0.

13:34 sed-utils: Oh nice.

13:36 EvanR: hallelujah lord jesus it works now

13:36 pull api and all

13:40 mgaare: gah it returns collections as a vector rather than a set...

13:52 sdegutis: EvanR: Why is that bad?

13:52 EvanR: because im trying to do a diff

13:52 sdegutis: EvanR: You get ordering that way.

13:52 EvanR: you get some ordering but not necessarily a desired or consistent ordering

13:52 the data for a many attribute is naturally in a set state

13:53 justin_smith: EvanR: you can make a set reliable from a vector, the reverse is not the case

13:53 EvanR: yes, i am doing that

13:53 but this vector is itself from a set

13:53 the default api gives you a set

13:54 justin_smith: OK

13:57 EvanR: ,(clojure.data/diff [1 2 3] [1 3 2])

13:57 clojurebot: #<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.data>

13:57 EvanR: [[nil 2 3] [nil 3 2] [1]]

13:58 martinklepsch: is there a function to get a file path for a namespace? i.e. (x 'project.server.api) => "project/server/api.clj" ?

14:01 hyPiRion: #(str (munge %) ".clj") ?

14:02 well, that ignores the . to / conversion, so nevermind that.

14:06 martinklepsch: so there's nothing built-in I guess

14:07 amalloy: TimMc: there's not much you can do with symbol-macrolet, when the thing you want to "expand" isn't in an evaluation position

14:11 csd_: "execution priority" for macros is...i mean, i don't think it's strictly impossible, but it isn't really in line with how macros work

14:11 CookedGryphon: Is it possible to add an annotation to a reified thing?

14:13 amalloy: to implement it you'd need to impose a total ordering on all macros in existence, and change the compiler dramatically

14:13 and it leads to weird questions like, what if the order is A first, then B, then C, and in code like (C (B x)) C expands to A?

14:17 maarek: I'm trying to convert this java class to clojure http://pastebin.com/kBUUkV3y. Can someone check my clojure. I seem to have a lot of issues with it from IllegalArgumentException Parameter declaration Fields. should be a vector to and CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: deserializeString in this context.

14:19 justin_smith: maarek: you need to put the definitions in a different order

14:19 maarek: the clojure compiler does no lookahead for definitions

14:19 at the time that -deserialize is defined, deserializeString does not exist yet

14:19 dbasch: the defn in line 19 is wrong

14:20 justin_smith: oh yeah, the defns are wrong, you need an args list on each

14:20 *that defn

14:21 also, for any function that acts as a method, the first argument is always "this"

14:21 so you want another arg I think

14:21 maarek: Hmm

14:21 justin_smith: maarek: that is, when deserializeString is called with no args, "string" will be "this", when it is called with one arg, you will get an exception for the wrong argument count

14:22 because the object is always the first argument to the method

14:24 maarek: justin_smith: I've reordered so that deserializeString is first and added [] to getOutputFields. I'll see what happens.

14:24 justin_smith: maarek: add a "this" arg, unless they are static methods

14:25 maarek: deserializeString is static and the other two are not.

14:25 justin_smith: OK - in your declaration deserializeJson (which does not exist) is the static one

14:27 maarek: justin_smith: Opp I changed that to deserializeString after the pastebin :)

14:28 justin_smith: Ok, just remember that a regular method always gets its object as the first arg

14:28 maarek: justin_smith: Will do, thanks.

14:29 hiredman: amalloy: change macros to expand on the way down and on the way up

14:30 justin_smith: hiredman: hah, macro middleware

14:31 sir_pinecone: hey all, is it possible to use an if statement in thread-last? I want to leave the value as is if the if evals to true. something like (->> items (if foo identity reverse) (partition-all 3) ...)

14:32 maarek: justin_smith: Do I have the class definition correct? Would I import this as (:import [storm.kafka StringScheme])

14:33 justin_smith: maarek: it looks right at a first glance at least

14:33 dbasch: sir_pinecone: no, you have to make it a function that takes one argument

14:33 justin_smith: maarek: one more thing: #^{:static true} could just be ^:static

14:34 sir_pinecone: dbasch: OK, thanks

14:34 maarek: justin_smith: okay thanks.

14:35 justin_smith: maarek: I remember someone saying (maybe it was amalloy?) that (:import (some.package Class)) was better, but I forget why

14:36 amalloy: justin_smith: technomancy probably says it too

14:37 technomancy: clojurebot: import indent?

14:37 clojurebot: import indent is brackets imply all entries are peers, while parens imply that the first entry is different from the rest: http://p.hagelb.org/import-indent.html

14:37 technomancy: ~botsnack

14:37 clojurebot: Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time

14:37 justin_smith: aha! now I know the reason, thanks

14:38 samflores: is there a way to use something like a "subtopic" with core.async?

14:38 ^ using pub/sub

14:38 amalloy: technomancy: i can never remember how you square that (har har) with the use of square brackets for require

14:39 technomancy: amalloy: how so?

14:39 dbasch: it’s really splitting hairs, I wouldn’t say it’s “better”

14:40 amalloy: technomancy: (:require [foo.bar.core :as bar \n :refer [whatever]])

14:40 :refer is clearly a peer of :as, not of foo.bar.core

14:40 and yet we have to use square brackets anyway, because in *this* case the clojure compiler treats them differently

14:41 technomancy: amalloy: hmm... I guess I never put newlines in requires

14:41 amalloy: i lied earlier: i remember that being your answer, in fact

14:41 technomancy: because class names are redonkulously long, but usually clojure peeps have the good sense not to go nuts about it

14:41 amalloy: which is totally a cop-out, philosophically

14:41 technomancy: yep

14:42 amalloy: i've needed newlines in requires once or twice, for like long :refer lists followed by a :rename or something

14:42 technomancy: I don't think I've ever used :rename

14:43 amalloy: amazingly, i actually used it once a few months ago, although i'd forgotten about it

14:43 (:require [hiccup.util :refer [escape-html] :rename {escape-html escape}])

14:43 technomancy: hm

14:43 amalloy: because what kind of lame name is escape-html

14:44 technomancy: I do have a pet peeve when you have stuff like (for instance) hiccup.html/escape-html

14:44 amalloy: exactly

14:44 technomancy: when the var name includes the last segment of the ns name

14:44 it just looks silly

14:44 amalloy: (or the first segment)

14:44 justin_smith: I like the name for that: smurf naming

14:44 technomancy: hehe

14:45 I think that was more common when :use was prevalent

14:45 amalloy: i am unsurprised to hear you've never used :rename, though, since you were one of the earliest detractors of prefix lists in require, making it hard to grep for stuff

14:45 justin_smith: require hiccup.smurf/smurf-html

14:45 amalloy: and rename presents similar problems

14:45 technomancy: amalloy: hm; actually the grep thing is more about namespaces than individual vars

14:46 grepping a var name is never going to work well due to false positives

14:47 TimMc: justin_smith: :-D

14:47 amalloy: i had forgotten about the term "smurf naming"

14:48 (inc justin_smith) ; for the reminder

14:48 lazybot: ⇒ 118

14:49 TimMc: (inc justin_smith-human)

14:49 lazybot: ⇒ 1

14:49 justin_smith: thanks for keeping track of that stuff for us, lazybot-bot

14:50 samflores: that's what I'm trying to accomplish: https://gist.github.com/samflores/62cacdf10b6f1a4d1ca9

14:52 justin_smith: samflores: could this be done be a broadcast channel that repeats another broadcast channel?

14:53 jonathanj: is there a pattern (or recommendation) for pluggable code in clojure?

14:54 justin_smith: jonathanj: pluggable in what sense?

14:54 technomancy: how is "pluggable code" distinct from "first-class functions"?

14:54 samflores: justin_smith, I'm not sure I got what your idea

14:54 jonathanj: well, i mean supplied by someone other than the software author

14:55 samflores: s/what//

14:55 justin_smith: jonathanj: multimethods and protocols are both useful for that

14:55 jonathanj: as are pure functions that take functions as arguments

14:55 amalloy: jonathanj: a library that accepts functions as arguments to its functions? or are you hoping end-users can write code at runtime?

14:56 jonathanj: amalloy: runtime would be nice but even if you could drop some code into some "plugins" directory and discover it at runtime would be sufficient

14:56 justin_smith: samflores: https://clojure.github.io/core.async/#clojure.core.async.lab/broadcast so you could use this, or multiplex, which is right next to it - depending which side you want to do the merging on

14:57 technomancy: jonathanj: leiningen looks for tasks under the leiningen.$TASK/$TASK var and that has worked out very well

14:57 you can put metadata on the var to signal options, like docstrings or requirements

14:58 jonathanj: can leiningen discover tasks or do you have to invoke the specific task?

14:58 technomancy: jonathanj: I don't understand how those two are distinct

14:59 amalloy: technomancy: he's asking if `lein help` can enumerate all extant tasks

14:59 (yes, it can)

14:59 jonathanj: how does that work?

14:59 justin_smith: technomancy: I think he wants a system where putting an artifact in a magic plays makes it get run, magically

14:59 samflores: justin_smith: I'll need some time to understand/try it :) thanks

14:59 justin_smith: s/plays/place

14:59 technomancy: jonathanj: it scans the classpath using the bultitude lib

15:00 amalloy: outside of lein, that sort of magical discovery of stuff isn't very popular in clojure; it's more popular to be explicit, by providing an interface that takes in some functions, and wiring them together to the structure your program wants to have

15:00 technomancy: https://github.com/Raynes/bultitude

15:00 justin_smith: (inc amalloy)

15:00 lazybot: ⇒ 187

15:00 samflores: (inc justin_smith)

15:00 lazybot: ⇒ 119

15:00 technomancy: right, the whole point of leiningen is to bridge the CLI->clojure functions

15:01 so the convention of CLI args -> tasks is always at the forefront

15:01 wsmoak: any hints on grammars for TextMate? It doesn’t know .clj yet…

15:01 technomancy: if this isn't true in your situation, some configuration might help make things clearer

15:01 jonathanj: hrm, so something like a config file mapping command names to functions

15:02 justin_smith: wsmoak: I don't know texmate, but I know that dnolen_ knows his shit, so this is probably legit https://github.com/swannodette/textmate-clojure

15:02 it's old though

15:02 wsmoak: justin_smith: thanks. had found https://github.com/mmcgrana/textmate-clojure (of which that’s a fork) but it’s years old so I wasn’t sure

15:03 justin_smith: yeah, both their projects tend to be pretty good, but I can't speak to that particular thing at all

15:03 jonathanj: can one have cyclic dependencies in clojure?

15:03 justin_smith: no

15:04 jonathanj: (i think i mean requirements, not dependencies)

15:04 justin_smith: jonathanj: cyclical require is detected as a compiler error when loading a namespace

15:05 jonathanj: you can fake it with resolve, but it's better to refactor to eliminate the cycle

15:05 jonathanj: okay

15:07 justin_smith: jonathanj: two things to consider regarding cycles is that it is common in clojure to address a broader range of functionality in one namespace than would in a single java class - so merging may be in order

15:08 the other thing is that I forget what the other thing I was thinking

15:09 jonathanj: justin_smith: i come from a Python background, so the broader range thing is already a part of my daily life; the cycles thing was just something that suddenly occurred to me, i haven't actually run into it yet

15:10 m1dnight1: guys, sorry to ask for help about namespaces *again*, but i cant seem to get my code to run, once more..

15:10 justin_smith: jonathanj: cool. I think the other thing was "why not put a multimethod or protocol in a third namespace that the other two namespaces use"

15:11 m1dnight1: the project worked fine last week, now it can't find classes anymore

15:13 "could not locate meta_clojure/actors/actors__init.class or meta_clojure/actors/actors.clj on classpath

15:13 however, they are in my classpath. My project.clj has the entry ":source-paths["src"]" (which has been like that since the begining

15:14 justin_smith: so, is there some error in meta_clojure/actors/actors.clj that would prevent the ns being loaded?

15:14 m1dnight1: let me try and compile that one

15:14 brb

15:14 also a clasnotfound exception for a java file

15:14 jonathanj: is there some kind of static analysis tool for clojure that i can use in my editor (emacs)?

15:14 m1dnight1: but, to fix that, previously I added this to my core.clj:

15:14 :java-source-paths ["interop"]

15:14 jonathanj: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading, starting at line 79, compiling:(clj_acheron/core.clj:214:1)

15:14 justin_smith: jonathanj: I use lein check in the repl

15:15 jonathanj: is particularly annoying to debug

15:15 justin_smith: what do you mean in the repl?

15:15 justin_smith: sorry, I mean in the terminal

15:15 d'oh

15:15 m1dnight1: and to verify, there is indeed a file in interop/actors/BlockingStore.java

15:15 I also tried "lein compile" in the terminal first

15:16 justin_smith: jonathanj: that error means that in the file clj_acheron/core.clj, starting on line 79, there is a paren, bracket, or string literal that is never closed

15:16 m1dnight1: oh, it seems that restarting emacs did the trick, odd

15:16 so probably the lein compile?

15:17 justin_smith: m1dnight1: it could have been there was a stale class file that was loaded and out of sync with everything else

15:17 and the lein compile would overwrite it

15:17 m1dnight1: Yeah that probably was it

15:17 i'll have to keep it in mind then :)

15:17 I wa sure of it that everything worked :p

15:17 thanks for listening though guys

15:18 justin_smith: m1dnight1: "lein do clean, x" is an option

15:19 jonathanj: justin_smith: yes, it's the "starting on" part that's annoying

15:19 justin_smith: why? doesn't it help to know where the unclosed context opened? it's not like the compiler can know where it should have closed

15:20 EvanR: but it could give you some good alternatives to pick from ;)

15:20 jonathanj: well if you have something like (defn foo [] ((let [a 1]) a)

15:20 then "starting from" points at the defn line

15:21 justin_smith: yes, that's the first of the two non-closed parens

15:21 EvanR: "perhaps you meant to close the defn right before line foo, the start of the next defn

15:21 "

15:22 justin_smith: EvanR: yeah, clojure's compiler does not attempt to be smart or helpful like that at all

15:23 I mean, defn inside another defn is allowed after all. It's just not usually what you want

15:23 ah, right!

15:23 jonathanj: perhaps you want a linter type tool, there are a few

15:23 jonathanj: unfortunately i don't have a real example, i just tried to recreate one that i spent about 5 minutes trying to debug only to find out i was barking up the wrong tree

15:23 justin_smith: and they catch things that are not errors per se, but are often errors

15:23 EvanR: its allowed, i wouldnt be surprised, but i would appreciate it if a tool assumed i didnt want to do that

15:23 justin_smith: jonathanj: eastwood is a popular one

15:23 kibit is decent

15:24 EvanR: whats the effect of a defn in side a defn, to replace the top level function?

15:24 justin_smith: EvanR: replace? you can create a top level function inside a function. It just isn't a good idea, usually

15:25 and yes, on a second run it would replace it

15:25 EvanR: or a first, if it was already defned somewhere else

15:25 justin_smith: jonathanj: https://github.com/jonase/eastwood

15:25 EvanR: im going to say its not a good idea at all

15:25 justin_smith: EvanR: sure, but that's true for a normal defn too

15:25 EvanR: it is a TERRIBLE idea

15:25 but it is allowed

15:26 EvanR: my life is a struggle to treat dynamic-as-fuck systems as if they were static ;)

15:26 justin_smith: heh

15:27 EvanR: but consider that we allow arbitrary redefinition, because repl based development would be a pain in the ass otherwise

15:27 where in a static system a double definition should be an error

15:27 EvanR: ruby for example if you ignore instance_eval, normal eval, method missing etc, could be sanely type inferred

15:28 arbitrary redefinition makes sense in the context of an implicit nested let

15:28 let [a 1 a 2 a 3 etc

15:29 justin_smith: EvanR: that's not redefinition

15:29 EvanR: shadowing

15:29 justin_smith: that's shadowing

15:29 wsmoak: dnolen_: around? I can’t get the bundle to work under ~/Library/… at all. works under /Applications though. :::shrug::: just wondered if you’re using TextMate 2 and where you put yours.

15:29 justin_smith: EvanR: (def a 2) (def a 4) is not shadowing, it is redefinition

15:29 EvanR: it has the same effect if you are always evaluating some let

15:29 justin_smith: EvanR: in that it effects any definitions in between that relied on a

15:29 EvanR: yes i get it

15:30 dnolen_: wsmoak: I haven't touched the textmate support in years - it's abandonware at this point

15:30 EvanR: it would work if you reloaded the other definitions after

15:30 if they is what you want, though

15:30 that*

15:30 just talking about possible repl methodology

15:30 justin_smith: ,(let [a 0 f (fn [] a) a 1] (f))

15:30 clojurebot: 0

15:30 justin_smith: ,(def a 0)

15:30 clojurebot: #'sandbox/a

15:30 justin_smith: ,(defn f [] a)

15:30 clojurebot: #'sandbox/f

15:31 justin_smith: ,(def a 1)

15:31 clojurebot: #'sandbox/a

15:31 justin_smith: ,(f)

15:31 clojurebot: 1

15:31 justin_smith: EvanR: that's how it's different

15:31 EvanR: yes, depends on what youd rather happen

15:31 justin_smith: well, one mutates other things you defined, the other does not

15:32 wsmoak: dnolen_: yeah I saw the dates. wasn’t sure if the syntax was just that stable, or… ;) thanks.

15:32 EvanR: it doesnt mutate the things but the context that they are going to execute in

15:32 and context doesnt have to be mutable to work like that

15:36 visof: i guys

15:36 hi

15:36 what is the fastest way to remove all words in a list from a string ?

15:36 justin_smith: ,(remove (set [

15:36 clojurebot: #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>

15:37 justin_smith: ,(remove (set ["a" "b" "c"]) ["a" "b" "d" "c" "a" "f" "b" "g"])

15:37 clojurebot: ("d" "f" "g")

15:37 justin_smith: you can use set to turn a list / vector / lazy-seq into a predicate

15:37 visof: great

15:38 justin_smith: that tests if the argument is in it

15:38 visof: justin_smith: thanks man

15:38 justin_smith: np

15:38 not strictly a predicate - but good enough for one :)

15:38 visof: so it's working fast if you have 10^6 word?

15:38 justin_smith: visof: caveat - if nil or false are in your list of things to remove this would fail

15:38 dbasch: justin_smith: he said a string, not a list of strings

15:38 justin_smith: dbasch: oh, oops

15:39 I misread

15:39 dbasch: visof: do you have a string or a list?

15:39 visof: dbasch: it's okay

15:39 dbasch: i should split the string by spaces to words

15:39 dbasch: yeah, it’s an extra step of split / str

15:39 visof: but if there is a faster way this would be fine wihout converting

15:39 dbasch: or join

15:39 justin_smith: visof: if you reuse the same set of matched strings, a set should be pretty fast

15:39 visof: there may be something faster but harder to implement though

15:40 visof: justin_smith: so what is the method?

15:40 dbasch: strings are immutable, so you’d need a stringbuilder and a linear scan

15:40 justin_smith: visof: harder to implement, as in I haven't implemented it

15:41 sdegutis: Clojure and Ruby have one thing in common: x = x

15:41 kirloo: go away bot

15:41 (def x x)

15:41 Both work even when x is not yet defined.

15:41 ,x

15:41 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

15:41 sdegutis: ,(def x x)

15:41 clojurebot: #'sandbox/x

15:41 sdegutis: ,x

15:41 clojurebot: #<Unbound Unbound: #'sandbox/x>

15:42 EvanR: if false; x = x; end, also works, causing x to be defined ;)

15:43 justin_smith: sdegutis: the first arg in a def form is added as a var in the namespace before the value is evaluated. It just isn't bound to any value yet. So (def x x) binds x to a var that has not yet been assigned a value.

15:43 sdegutis: that's why, but not neccissarily an excuse or argument that it should make sense

15:44 sdegutis: EvanR: x = x unless x

15:44 EvanR: i never reassign to the same variable in ruby

15:44 justin_smith: sdegutis: so is this because the language writers were huge fans of Aristotle, or of Ayn Rand?

15:45 amalloy: little-known fact: aristotle was a huge fan of ayn rand

15:45 EvanR: ya lyin

15:49 dbasch: justin_smith: you’re saying it’s an objectivism-oriented language?

15:50 justin_smith: ,(def a a)

15:50 clojurebot: #'sandbox/a

15:51 sdegutis: ,x

15:51 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

15:52 sdegutis: Such a short memory.

15:52 dbasch: clojurebot has this condition

15:53 EvanR: ,(let [a a] a)

15:53 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

15:53 EvanR: ,(letfn [a (fn [] (a)] (a))

15:53 clojurebot: #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: ]>

15:53 EvanR: ,(letfn [a (fn [] (a))] (a))

15:53 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0:0)>

15:54 amalloy: are you looking for (letfn [(a [] (a))] (a))?

15:54 EvanR: ,(letfn [(a [] (a))] (a))

15:54 clojurebot: #<StackOverflowError java.lang.StackOverflowError>

15:55 amalloy: equivalently, ((fn a [] (a)))

15:55 EvanR: jenga!

15:57 m1dnight1: is there a way to make a hard copy of a value in clojure?

15:57 to pass it to another thread

15:58 amalloy: m1dnight1: if it's immutable, all copies are "hard", in that they never change. just send a reference

15:58 if it's not immutable, Here There Be Dragons

15:58 bbloom: ... and normal java rules about defensive deep clones apply

15:58 *cringe*

15:58 EvanR: defensive deep clones

15:58 m1dnight1: well you actually have a valid point amalloy

15:58 EvanR: deploy

15:58 dbasch: lock ; clone ; unlock ; sigh

15:58 m1dnight1: it would be enough for my usecase

15:59 bbloom: m1dnight1: it's enough for all but the highest performance use cases, and even then it's often enough

15:59 EvanR: whats an example of a mutable "value" ?

15:59 dbasch: well, in hickeyspeak “values” don’t mutate

16:00 the vessels containing said values mutate

16:00 bbloom: EvanR: laziness? like the hash field in clojure's structures. but i'd argue that lazy "values" are not "values", sshhh don't tell the haskellers (unless they've moved on to idris and learned to prefer strictness)

16:00 EvanR: still, that does not compute

16:01 i mean dbasch makes sense, i dont see how laziness has anything to do with it

16:01 so if two threads are attempting to use the same lazy seq, they might mess each other up?

16:03 bbloom: EvanR: not if the lazy thunk is deterministic, no. the advancing of seqs are synchorinized in clojure

16:05 EvanR: uh huh

16:05 a lazy sequences head, then, does not count as a mutable object, from the programmers perspective

16:06 im just trying to understand a case where m1dnight_ needs to worry about what he is passing to another thread

16:13 sdegutis: I'm reducing a small Ruby file that uses Sprockets, and I'm appreciating Clojure a lot right now.

16:20 EvanR: what is the trick to put a print in the middle of the thread first macro

16:21 dbasch: EvanR: you want a function that prints the argument and evaluates to the argument

16:21 EvanR: yeah

16:23 ,(-> {:a 1 :b 2} (dissoc :a))

16:23 clojurebot: {:b 2}

16:23 EvanR: ,(-> {:a 1 :b 2} (dissoc :a) (update-in [:b] inc)

16:23 clojurebot: #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>

16:23 EvanR: ,(-> {:a 1 :b 2} (dissoc :a) (update-in [:b] inc))

16:23 clojurebot: {:b 3}

16:32 martinklepsch: in ns-tracker, if a namespace A changes does this flag namespace B that requires A ?

16:34 verma: after I add a dep to project.clj, do I have to sort of restart my repl, and cljsbuilds?

16:38 AeroNotix: is there a better client for cassandra than the clojurewerkz one?

16:40 ystael_: AeroNotix: i can name at least one _not_ better one, but i don't know of a better one :)

16:40 AeroNotix: blegh

16:52 sveri: Hi, how can I use fixtures with test.check?

16:58 {blake}: I just realized that I've been doing block commenting with double quotes. That seems potentially problematic.

16:58 sveri, Did you see this: https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.test/use-fixtures ?

16:59 sveri: {blake}: yea, but its not working with test.checks defspec

17:01 {blake}: sveri, Huh.

17:02 sveri, I'm just now doing a serious test suite for Clojure so I'm not too familiar with either.

17:02 sveri: {blake}: yea, np

17:22 justin_smith: EvanR: were you thinking of (doto println) ?

17:22 EvanR: i dont know

17:22 justin_smith: ,,(-> {:a 1 :b 2} (dissoc :a) (doto println) (update-in [:b] inc))

17:22 clojurebot: {:b 2}\n{:b 3}

17:22 EvanR: good

17:23 though i figured out my problem just by staring at the code

17:24 technomancy: fenyman method woo

17:24 *feynman

17:25 ag0rex: can private instance fields be accessed with java interop?

17:25 justin_smith: ag0rex: with reflection, same as you would do it in java

17:26 EvanR: i thought feynmans method was to have your buddies hold you upside down while you pee on the problem

17:26 because that would have been more satisfying

17:26 dbasch: EvanR: that works really well if the problem is you

17:26 EvanR: lol

17:26 ag0rex: justin_smith: is there a clojure wrapper around java reflection api?

17:27 justin_smith: ag0rex: clojure.reflect

17:27 mdrogalis: EvanR: I *really* enjoyed his book.

17:28 justin_smith: EvanR: is there some in joke about Feynman in that that I am missing?

17:28 TimMc: It's a reference to one of his stories.

17:29 Some buddies of his apparently thought that peeing worked by gravity. (Or they only said so to see what he's do?)

17:29 EvanR: is there something like whatever || fallback

17:29 where if whatever if nil, you get fallback

17:29 ag0rex: justin_smith: thank you!

17:29 technomancy: justin_smith: feynman problem-solving method: 0) write down the problem, 1) think very hard, 2) write down the solution

17:30 EvanR: step 0 is often skipped

17:30 often a disaster

17:30 mdrogalis: EvanR: (or x y)

17:30 ,(doc fnil) ; Also very useful.

17:30 clojurebot: "([f x] [f x y] [f x y z]); Takes a function f, and returns a function that calls f, replacing a nil first argument to f with the supplied value x. Higher arity versions can replace arguments in the second and third positions (y, z). Note that the function f can take any number of arguments, not just the one(s) being nil-patched."

17:31 justin_smith: technomancy: I know that one :) not the one about having buddies hold you upside down while you pee on the problem.

17:31 technomancy: right right

17:31 (inc fnil)

17:31 lazybot: ⇒ 2

17:32 mdrogalis: *Facepalm*

17:32 justin_smith: 0) write down the problem (skipped) 1) think very hard 2) go make a pizza because I was thinking about pizza and I

17:32 'm hungry now.

17:32 guest59: In Om, how can I pass a key when using a for loop?

17:32 justin_smith: wait what?

17:36 dbasch: guest59: what do you mean by a for loop? do you have some code you can paste somewhere?

17:37 EvanR: what is the operation for append two vectors

17:37 ,(+ [1] [2])

17:37 clojurebot: #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>

17:37 EvanR: good

17:37 eric_normand: EvanR: into

17:37 ,(into [1 2 3] [4 5 6])

17:37 EvanR: sup eric

17:37 clojurebot: [1 2 3 4 5 ...]

17:38 EvanR: im working on the third floor

17:38 eric_normand: EvanR: I'm on the second floor

17:38 EvanR: same building?

17:38 EvanR: actually i dont know

17:39 eric_normand: EvanR: you're in IP Building?

17:39 guest59: dbasch: In Om, how can I use a loop with a key without using om/build? I keep getting a react warning "Each child in array should have a unique 'key' prop ..."

17:39 m1dnight_: quick question about clojure and emacs. Sometimes I have threads that keep on running. How do I kill all of them? atm I'm using cider-restart but it annoys me a bit that when I do that all my windows are rearranged :p

17:39 EvanR: yeah, the intellectual property building

17:39 eric_normand: EvanR: I'm in Beta

17:39 m1dnight_: ctrl+c in the repl doesn't kill them. They still spew messages in the messagebuffer (println that is)

17:39 eric_normand: EvanR: Tyler told me you were using Clojure now

17:39 EvanR: how do you like it?

17:41 j0ni: m1dnight_: you can interrupt a running repl invocation with C-c C-b i think

17:41 justin_smith: m1dnight_: the Thread API has ways to list threads, and you can set their interrupted property, but unless they are checking that property, via ##(.isInterrupted (Thread/currentThread)) there is no reliable way to shut down another thread in the jvm

17:41 lazybot: ⇒ false

17:41 j0ni: yeah "Interrupt any pending evaluations" from the cider README

17:41 justin_smith: you can write threads that check that .isInterrupted flag and shut down if it is set, of course

17:42 EvanR: eric_normand: real fun

17:42 justin_smith: j0ni: that's for the top level repl thread, not for any threads it spawned

17:42 j0ni: bound to C-c C-c

17:42 eric_normand: EvanR: rocking the dynlang?

17:42 j0ni: ah, sorry I guess I didn't read back far enough

17:42 dbasch: guest59: what does your array look like? it it an array of #js objects each one of which contains a key property?

17:43 EvanR: eric_normand: probably going to go insane at some point but hey

17:43 guest59: Array of clojure maps, each one has title key.

17:44 dbasch: guest59: each one should have a “key” key

17:46 EvanR: eric_normand: i get the best of both worlds, null pointer exceptions and uncaught type mismatch

17:46 technomancy: ,((apply juxt (map #(fn [c] (c %)) (range 5))) [:a :b :c :d :e])

17:46 clojurebot: [:a :b :c :d :e]

17:49 EvanR: ,(nil)

17:49 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

17:49 eric_normand: EvanR: well, it looks like you're exploring the contours of the language

17:49 EvanR: (nil) gives null pointer exception for me

17:50 cant call nil makes more sense

17:50 justin_smith: ,(let [a nil] (a))

17:50 clojurebot: #<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>

17:50 justin_smith: it's a special case that doesn't always work

17:50 EvanR: jaaa

17:51 technomancy: amazing https://github.com/garybernhardt/base

17:51 dbasch: EvanR: whats’’s your clojure version?

17:51 what’s

17:51 EvanR: 0.old

17:51 1.5.1

17:52 guest59: dbasch: I added a :key and "key", but it didn't kill the warning. I deal with it for right now ... thanks for your help

17:56 EvanR: ,(not-empty [])

17:56 clojurebot: nil

17:56 EvanR: ,(not-empty [1])

17:56 clojurebot: [1]

18:10 EvanR: the channel closes at 5pm or is it just me ;)

18:10 justin_smith: it's 15:00 here!

18:10 EvanR: socal people get off at 3 i thought

18:11 dbasch: it’s always 5 o’clock somewhere, so it that were the case it would always be closed

18:11 TimMc: technomancy: Next seajure project: A namespace that automatically exports the contents of every other namespace.

18:12 justin_smith: EvanR: in socal you can get off whenever, and wherever, you want

18:12 technomancy: TimMc: potemkin-plus

18:13 EvanR: hawt

18:13 technomancy: potemkin-professional-edition, rather

18:16 TimMc: potemkin-enterprise-edition exposes an XML configuration system where you can encode how to handle name conflicts

18:16 It is Turing-complete.

18:17 technomancy: I'm on a chaise-lounge in the back yard FWIW

18:18 visof: hi

18:18 how can i convert arraylist to clojure native ds ?

18:18 #<ArrayList [Hello-1, ,-2, world-3]>

18:18 justin_smith: visof: into works nicely for that

18:18 visof: thanks

18:19 justin_smith: ,(into [] (java.util.ArrayList. [1 2 3 4]))

18:19 clojurebot: [1 2 3 4]

18:19 justin_smith: as you see, it is asly to make an ArrayList out of a vector

18:19 alsy = also easy, btw

18:20 EvanR: but what is a clojure native ds

18:20 justin_smith: EvanR: one which has a readable printed form

18:20 EvanR: ok data structure

18:20 justin_smith: EvanR: or numbers

18:21 or booleans

18:21 or nil

18:21 EvanR: data type

18:21 justin_smith: I think by ds he meant data structure, yes

18:21 EvanR: can you convert an array list into a map

18:21 justin_smith: EvanR: or my answer is way off base because he was talking about a portable nintendo gaming unit

18:22 EvanR: one is key/value the other is sequential

18:22 EvanR: ok

18:22 ,(into {} [[1 2] [3 4]])

18:22 clojurebot: {1 2, 3 4}

18:23 EvanR: i guess it would work if it was an array list of pairs

18:23 justin_smith: yeah

19:03 womble: How do I install a third-party clojure library in my riemann installation? I'm using the Debian packages from riemann.io if that makes any difference.

19:03 justin_smith: womble: most of us use lein for dep management

19:04 sritchie: womble: you have to create a new lein project that includes both riemann and something else

19:04 alternatively, when you run riemann, you have include your project’s jar on the classpath

19:05 (creating a new lein project and making an uberjar is just an easy way to do that)

19:05 womble: so, to “install” just modify the launcher script

19:05 then you can access more stuff from your riemann config

19:06 womble: OK. Assume I'm *not* already a smug clojure weenie, and therefore have no idea whatsoever what any of that actually meant.

19:06 justin_smith: womble: lein is leiningen, a dependency management tool

19:06 technomancy: womble: I don't think anyone here knows how debian packages riemann

19:07 womble: technomancy: Good thing I'm not using Debian's packages, then.

19:08 TimMc: Ah, just .debs then.

19:09 * womble is somewhat stunned by the idea that he has to rebuild riemann in order to pull in an external library

19:10 justin_smith: womble: I don't see anything smug or weenie like about what's been said here. lein is used to manage deps. Clojure "builds" everything each time you run it.

19:10 TimMc: womble: Where is riemann's doc for third-party libs?

19:10 (I am not yet a smug riemann weenie.)

19:10 womble: TimMc: I have no idea. I can't find any.

19:10 technomancy: you probably don't have to, but having no idea what the debian packaging is like, that's the only way anyone is going to be able to help you.

19:11 TimMc: womble: Ah, it sounded like you had identified a certain integration path and were unsure how to proceed on it.

19:12 It sounds like Riemann does everything via clients, not libraries.

19:12 womble: TimMc: I'm trying to write a client, but in order to avoid having to write my own $EVERYTHING, I'm using an external library to do the heavy lifting.

19:12 I've actually got code that might work, if I could work out how to download the bloody package off clojars and put it $SOMEWHERE

19:13 justin_smith: womble: that's what lein used

19:13 *what lein does

19:13 99% of use use lein. It builds a dependency tree, downloads the things you need, and launches the app.

19:14 TimMc: womble: So it sounds like you should make a leiningen project that pulls in riemann-clojure-client as a dependency.

19:14 womble: Great. How do I do that?

19:14 justin_smith: $google leiningen

19:14 lazybot: [Leiningen] http://leiningen.org/

19:14 justin_smith: it's one shell script, you can put it in ~/bin

19:14 TimMc: lein has good docs

19:18 womble: Sigh, I've just realised I'm in #clojure, not #riemann. Don't know how my fingers ended up here.

19:19 justin_smith: womble: hah, maybe they will be more helpful :)

19:19 womble: That's what I'm hoping.

19:20 justin_smith: now if you were writing your client lib in clojure, I am sure we could help with that

19:24 womble: justin_smith: Thankfully, I don't need to write a lib, just a thin wrapper.

19:24 justin_smith: cool

19:45 bitfl1pper: hello all, has anyone here tried implementing the CSRF protection as described in the luminus documentation? http://www.luminusweb.net/docs/routes.md, I'm having a rough time getting it to compile, I feel like it may be predicated on a deprecated function, or maybe I'm missing something really obvious. I'm relatively noob at clojure btw

19:46 justin_smith: bitfl1pper: what is the error message you are getting?

19:46 no, I haven't used the CSRF stuff, but can probably help you figure out your compilation errors anyway

19:48 bitfl1pper: ~ Caused by: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: add-tag! in this context, i've been digging around the predicate library ring-anti-forgery middleware and I can't find the function anywhere, I'm thinking that I may not understand middleware enough? because I tried wrapping the handler as described in the newer ring-af repo

19:48 clojurebot: Titim gan éirí ort.

19:50 bitfl1pper: thanks by the way, if this doesn't work out, I'm going to try to start a little smaller and learn Ring from the ground up, because i've been struggling getting luminus to stick together, I don't think i understand the lower level stuff well enough

19:51 justin_smith: add-tag! seems to be in luminus

19:52 erikcw: Does anyone know how to generate a react component using Reagent that will cause React.isValidClass(component) to return true?

19:53 justin_smith: bitfl1pper: it's defined in selmer.parser https://github.com/yogthos/Selmer/blob/7adffc8afe23731d8629ea1bf4a003cbfdc75f90/src/selmer/parser.clj#L79

19:53 bitfl1pper: I think the rest of luminus should be pulling in the dep, you just need to use a require to make sure it is available in your namespace

19:53 talios: seancorfield - how are you finding Frege?

19:54 justin_smith: bitfl1pper: also, I would call putting a funciton in your docs that is from another lib, and not describing where it came from, a documentation error

19:54 bitfl1pper: yep, thanks, it looks like the NS declaration :requires selmer.parser :as parser, but the documentation doesn't parser/add-tag! ? is that correct?

19:54 justin_smith: yeah, sounds about right

19:54 anyway, try parser/add-tag!

19:55 I like how excited that name makes me sound

19:55 (inc !)

19:55 lazybot: ⇒ 1

19:55 nestastubbs: woot

19:55 bitfl1pper: justin_smith: thanks a lot, trying now

19:56 nestastubbs: A clojure lib providing a distributed rate limiting service on top of redis: https://github.com/craigbro/turnstile

19:56 only took two beers!

19:57 justin_smith: cool

19:57 clojure can be way cool like that

19:57 nestastubbs: rate limiting was the last bit of state stopping us from running N instanced of our API service

19:58 the carmine dep is out of date, but...

19:59 seancorfield: talios: early days yet - but I like Haskell so I'm liking Frege

19:59 once I have the lein plugin built for compiling Frege I'll be able to experiment a bit more with using it for stuff inside Clojure projects

19:59 talios: seancorfield - nice. I'm liking it as well, tho I need to find time to revisit it. And find something "real" to try and do with it.

20:00 seancorfield: currently I'm working through "Real World Haskell" again but using Frege for all the examples and exercises

20:00 bitfl1pper: justin_smith: well the add-tag error seems to be gone, but now I have a new one which I suspect is also caused by not declaring in ns, thanks for your help

20:00 seancorfield: there's a repo with all of the examples converted to Frege (but not the exercises!)

20:00 justin_smith: bitfl1pper: np, good luck sorting out the rest

20:00 talios: seancorfield - yep, must revisit that repo/book as well.

20:01 seancorfield - will be interested to hear how you go with mixing clojure/frege - and how/why it worked better for your usecase

20:02 seancorfield: Yeah, I've no idea how that will pan out... but being able to mix languages will make it more likely I'll actually use Frege for something real :)

20:09 bitfl1pper: justin_smith: I've got it compiling now-- probably newbie mistakes on my part -- needed to change add-tag! -> parser/add-tag! ; also, needed to add [ring.util.anti-forgery :refer [anti-forgery-field] to ns dec.

20:09 justin_smith: bitfl1pper: cool

20:18 nestastubbs: hiccup users: is there a hiccup replacement that escapes content by default?

20:21 amalloy: you can't really do that, nestastubbs, because then (html x) becomes different from (html (html x))

20:22 and how can it even tell what pieces you want unescaped? [(keyword user-input) "s"] is just as unsafe as [:tr user-input]

20:24 nestastubbs: amalloy: sure you can, other languages do it all the time, and there is nothing inc lojure that stops it

20:24 it means you have to mark strings as safe

20:25 be default, assume a string is not safe, you escape it and make it safe. Once marked safe, it won't be double escaped

20:26 there are some edges, like, how to treat concat of safe and unsafe string...

20:30 justin_smith: nestastubbs: sounds like something you could do with a deftype and a protocol actually

20:30 or a defmethod

20:32 nestastubbs: might be more complicated than that, but tractable

20:32 would want concatenation to make the end result unsafe, or escape the unsafe elements..

20:33 but that is not essential

20:39 nathan7: bbloom: I think MonadPlus might be a semigroup

20:42 bbloom: hmm, no, nevermind

20:50 amalloy: wow, are we back on MonadPlus again?

20:50 nathan7: I was trying to figure out what mathematical structure it describes

20:50 and these things stick around in one's subconscious

20:52 amalloy: i mean, the haskell Monad typeclass is, as i understand it, pretty far from the mathematical idea of monads, even though that's what it was originally inspired by. it's not always the case that you can find a useful correspondence

20:57 bbloom: ,(clojure.lang.Compiler/demunge 'WOW_CONFUSING)

20:57 clojurebot: #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to java.lang.String>

20:57 bbloom: ,(clojure.lang.Compiler/demunge "WOW_CONFUSING")

20:57 clojurebot: "WOW-CONFUSING"

20:58 TEttinger: ,(clojure.lang.Compiler/demunge "_-_-_-_")

20:58 clojurebot: "-------"

20:58 bbloom: i often name something LIKE_THIS as a temporary name while i tried to come up with something better

20:59 couldn't find it w/ grep when i got an ArityException b/c it was LIKE-THIS

21:01 TEttinger: ,(clojure.lang.Compiler/demunge "_-_-_-_")

21:01 clojurebot: "-------"

21:02 nonuby: using tools.cli how do I specify a required option, removing :default seems to just omit that key from :options rather than populating :errors

21:02 TEttinger: ,(= (clojure.lang.Compiler/demunge "_-_-_-_") "-------")

21:02 clojurebot: false

21:02 nonuby: then again I guess options should be just that.. hmm

21:02 i.e. optional

21:10 is something better than tools.cli that also merge environment variables (ala 12 factor) before apply cli options, and produces a similar map

21:22 arrdem: &(demunge "_-_")

21:22 lazybot: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: demunge in this context

21:22 arrdem: interesting

21:26 justin_smith: amalloy: redid that pr, sorry that was such a mess, it was the last thing I did that night and I did not even think to check if it applied cleanly

21:27 the funniest was one of the plugins where head had nothing and master had like 8 newlines, and that was the entirety of the merge conflict

21:29 verma: does anyone know how :foreign-libs works when building cljs projects? it seems I can supply a URL, but that always fails for me with a Not a file error.

21:32 TEttinger: ,(= "_-_-_-_" "_-_-_-_")

21:32 clojurebot: false

21:32 TEttinger: this is a fun trick

21:33 ,(map count ["_-_-_-_" "_-_-_-_"])

21:33 clojurebot: (8 7)

21:34 justin_smith: ,(map #(map int %) ["_-_-_-_" "_-_-_-_"])

21:34 clojurebot: ((95 45 95 45 65279 ...) (95 45 95 45 95 ...))

21:34 justin_smith: 🎵one of these things is not like the others🎵🎵

21:35 TEttinger: ,"(clojure.lang.Compiler/demunge \"_-_-\ufeff_-_\")"

21:35 clojurebot: "(clojure.lang.Compiler/demunge \"_-_-_-_\")"

22:03 jeffterrell: TEttinger: What is that? A nonprinting character?

22:03 TEttinger: yes

22:03 it's also a legitimate character in clojure identifiers

22:06 jeffterrell: Crazy. TIL…

22:12 justin_smith: ,(def  22)

22:12 clojurebot: #'sandbox/

22:12 justin_smith: ,

22:12 clojurebot: 22

22:12 justin_smith: that is pretty evil

22:41 ghadishayban: transducers on Java Iterators https://gist.github.com/ghadishayban/ed64040c9c7de4b4663c

22:42 why not right?

22:43 TEttinger: awesome ghadishayban

22:46 ghadishayban: the horrors!

22:47 nonuby: given a fn: (defn x [& {:keys [a b c] }] {:a2 a :b2 b :c2 c}) and given (def v1 {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}) how can I call x with v1 without extracting each parameter?

22:47 justin_smith: ,(+   )

22:47 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol:  in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

22:47 justin_smith: ,(def  22)

22:47 clojurebot: #'sandbox/

22:47 justin_smith: ,(+   )

22:47 clojurebot: 44

22:48 justin_smith: ,(apply (fn x [& {:keys [a b c] }] {:a2 a :b2 b :c2 c}) (apply concat {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})); nonuby

22:48 clojurebot: {:a2 1, :b2 2, :c2 3}

22:48 justin_smith: and yeah, that is clumsy and & {} is bad

22:50 nonuby: thanks justin_smith, that makes sense, I can see how it works now, yeah I agree it smells but a lot of libraries use it

22:50 justin_smith: right

22:59 bbloom: is it just me, or does anyone else find infix notation less and less familiar as time goes on?

23:00 ghadishayban: not just you

23:00 justin_smith: I get messed up when people use parens / braces weird - like on the line closes in an algol, or on their own line in a lisp

23:01 otherwise I can mostly handle the switch

23:01 bbloom: do you guys also experience constant operator precedence anxiety?

23:01 jeffterrell: bbloom: In general yes, but I still have to stop and think about how prefix - and / work, e.g. (/ 8 4 2).

23:01 bbloom: i start to twitch and feel like i need a lot more parens

23:01 justin_smith: like somehow the gestalt of trailing } tells my reptile brain "infix"

23:02 bbloom: ,(-)

23:02 clojurebot: #<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/->

23:02 bbloom: ,(- 1)

23:02 clojurebot: -1

23:02 bbloom: ,(- 1 2)

23:02 clojurebot: -1

23:02 bbloom: ,(- 1 5)

23:02 clojurebot: -4

23:02 justin_smith: ,(-)

23:02 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: - in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

23:02 justin_smith: ,(- )

23:02 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: - in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

23:03 justin_smith: ,(- )

23:03 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: - in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

23:03 ghadishayban: is it unicode day in here?

23:03 justin_smith: ,(-  )

23:03 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol:  in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

23:03 justin_smith: finally

23:03 ghadishayban: TEttinger was showing that off, and I found it amusing

23:03 ,(def  22)

23:03 clojurebot: #'sandbox/

23:03 justin_smith: ,(-  )

23:03 clojurebot: -22

23:03 bbloom: ,(- 3 7 9)

23:03 clojurebot: -13

23:04 bbloom: does feel a tad strange

23:04 ,(/)

23:04 clojurebot: #<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core//>

23:04 bbloom: ,(/ 5)

23:04 clojurebot: 1/5

23:04 bbloom: ,(/ 5 10)

23:04 clojurebot: 1/2

23:04 bbloom: ,(/ 5 10 15)

23:04 clojurebot: 1/30

23:04 jeffterrell: Whoa, didn't know about single-arity /

23:04 bbloom: yeah, reciprocal

23:05 jeffterrell: Except now I no longer trust what I see, thanks a lot justin_smith and TEttinger.

23:05 ghadishayban: all i want for christmas is a bunch of reducible collection sources...

23:05 ... that all respect reduced properly

23:06 bbloom: really - and / are very strange symbols for prefix

23:06 b/c `x - y` is really `x + -y`

23:06 similarly `x / y` is really `x * y^-1`

23:07 jeffterrell: bbloom: Yeah, haven't thought deeply about why, but there's definitely some impedance mismatch going on there, at least in my brain.

23:08 bbloom: jeffterrell: yeah, it's b/c subtraction and division are derived concepts built on top of negation, addition, multiplication, and exponentiation

23:09 jeffterrell: I never thought about subtraction and division as derived that way, but I think that would explain why they feel weird with infix. Neat.

23:11 bbloom: it's weird, b/c some times i feel the need for infix, but it's never for like + or *

23:11 maarek: This is pretty basic I think but what is the "-" before a function? Sometimes it's there and sometimes not and it's not easy to search for.

23:11 bbloom: it's when i actually care about spatial relationships

23:11 maarek: - is a valid symbol, so you can type:

23:11 (doc -)

23:11 clojurebot: "([x] [x y] [x y & more]); If no ys are supplied, returns the negation of x, else subtracts the ys from x and returns the result. Does not auto-promote longs, will throw on overflow. See also: -'"

23:12 maarek: bbloom: Okay I'll check it. Thanks.

23:15 bbloom: Hmm but on a function definition (defn -someMethod [] somethingElse)… how does negation work there?

23:16 bbloom: maarek: lisp's tokenization rules are much simpler than most languages. that's one symbol: "-someMethod", not two symbols "-" and "someMethod"

23:16 watch:

23:16 ,(count '[ -someMethod ])

23:16 clojurebot: 1

23:16 bbloom: ,(count '[ - someMethod ])

23:16 clojurebot: 2

23:17 bbloom: ,(map class '[ - someMethod ])

23:17 clojurebot: (clojure.lang.Symbol clojure.lang.Symbol)

23:17 justin_smith: even more commonly seen as ##(count '[some-method])

23:17 lazybot: ⇒ 1

23:18 amalloy: maarek: -foo is sometimes used to mean "an implementation detail of how foo is built" or "a protocol function underlying the public function foo". as justin_smith and bbloom say, there's nothing inherently special about - in a name, but -foo is a convention

23:19 maarek: amalloy: I have been seeing it on an implementation of java interfaces.

23:20 TEttinger: ,(def1)

23:20 clojurebot: #'sandbox/

23:20 TEttinger: justin_smith: ^

23:20 maarek: Thanks guys

23:20 justin_smith: maarek: yeah, that is a default translation when you use :gen-class

23:21 TEttinger: ,(-  )

23:21 justin_smith: so -main because the method main, etc.

23:21 clojurebot: -1

23:21 justin_smith: *becomes

23:22 I keep doing semi-phonetic typos today

23:22 maarek: :prefix "-" is default in gen-class then?

23:23 It all makes sense then. Whew, nothing magical.

23:23 justin_smith: maarek: yeah, if you look at (doc gen-class) it is in there

23:23 maarek: we work pretty hard to avoid magic

23:24 maarek: justin_smith: Yeah I just pulled it up. Thanks

23:24 TEttinger: yay, now we can imitate APL

23:24 ,(#(`[~@%](`[~@%&](+)))[:?:|:>:<](+(*)(*)))

23:24 clojurebot: :>

23:25 TEttinger: justin_smith: speak for yourself, swearjure is magic

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