#clojure log - Sep 04 2014

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0:39 ben_vulpes: i have isolated and reproduced my multipart upload nightmare!

0:39 https://github.com/survantjames/crazy_clojure_deps

0:40 xeqi: ping: i think there's some kind of conflict with kerodon and clj-http

0:40 the resolution of which is way over my head

0:41 dakrone: ping see above

0:41 i have also spammed both of your issue pages on github

0:42 and now i am clocking out as the babe has just finished the last episode of voyager and must now mourn. ttyl!

0:45 joobus: is there a functional difference between these two: (def asdf {}) and (def asdf (ref {}))

0:47 they seem to behave the same when doing key lookups...

0:48 and I assumed a {} was just a reference to begin with

0:48 arrdem: http://grimoire.arrdem.com/1.6.0/clojure.core/ref

0:48 http://clojure.org/refs

0:48 google is your friend

0:49 {} is defined to be a literal map why would it be a ref

0:55 technomancy: google is your foe

0:55 always trying to steal your private information and trick you into using G+

0:59 Jaood: annoying as hell on android by default, you take a photo and you get something like "your photos are ready to be shared on G+"

1:01 arrdem: yeah... turned that one off right quick

1:02 joobus: re: google, found this yesterday https://imgur.com/wbjCmbt

1:04 arrdem: shrug. it's their business model, and US data ownership / "privacy" laws allow it. I don't think it's right but I'm not gonna fault them for it either.

1:05 joobus: thanks for the help tonight arrdem, night guys

2:40 huy: hi

2:41 jkj: morning

2:41 spooky..... lein with-profile uberjar does AOT but lein compile does not

2:41 should it work like that

2:41 it's just thatthe aot-compiled class is needed by the rest of the code

2:53 wonder if :dev profile skips aot or something

2:58 lein with-profile -base compile ... aot works

3:41 sm0ke: for leiningen how do i specify a merge policy for conflicting files while creating uberjar?

3:41 borkdude: jackjames I switched over to emacs-prelude now. It works ok so far. One question I have is, in emacs-live C-space space selected succeeding sexprs, but in the emacs-prelude defaults, it selects only one sexp. Do you know what to change perhaps?

3:57 sm0ke: :uberjar-merge-with seems relevant

5:06 reduced: Hi

5:07 https://gist.github.com/anonymous/59ce0b0b001252d524a1

5:07 (for [v val1]

5:07 (println (keys v)))

5:07 what is wrong in all this

5:07 (def val1 {:x [1 2 4 5]

5:07 :y [1 1 2 3]

5:07 :z [2 1 2 3]

5:07 })

5:07 (for [v val1]

5:07 (println (keys v)))

5:29 karls: recycle: v will be a list of (key value)

5:30 whoops, they're gone

7:10 * TimMc looks to see if there is a nick "reuse" as well

8:54 lvh: Project organization question. If I have a component with an API (let's say a protocol) and some implementations (i.e. a riak backing store, a sql backing store...) where would they live?

8:55 Right now I have e.g. myproject.store.core and myproject.store.riak. I don't know if myproject.store and myproject.store.riak would even work, or if that would be desirable

8:55 maybe it should be myproejct.store.api

8:55 tbaldridge: lvh: I tend to use .api or even .protocols and then have .impl.riak

8:56 lvh: tbaldridge: so, is that myproj.api, or myproj.store.api? I.e. do you have an api file that covers all your app's APIs?

8:56 thanks!

9:21 tbaldridge: lvh: I tend to divide by module first, then by api/impl/etc.

9:21 So myproj.store.api

9:21 not saying that's the perfect way, just a way

9:22 lvh: tbaldridge: yeah, no, that resonates :) thanks

9:30 yogsototh: Hi I have a http-kit server I can run with lein run, but I can't compile it; lein compile foo.server returns me a "Method code too large!" error

9:30 And to circumvent this the only way I found was to:

9:31 1. lein clean ; 2. lein compile foo.server (broke) ; 3. lein uberjar ; and then I have a working uberjar (the compilation create a .class)

9:31 Is there a way to control how leiningen compile things?

9:32 So I could simply stop the compilation after it try to generate the first .class?

9:32 clgv: yogsototh: the error sounds like one of your clojure function uses a lot of inlining functions or huge macro expandions

9:32 *expansions

9:33 yogsototh: Yes, I am not sure, but this is certainly schema + swagger with complex schema

9:33 if I use less routes, all work fine

9:34 I only have 6 routes thought.

9:34 clgv: maybe you can delegate all routes directly to individual functions?

9:35 yogsototh: I really don't know how to do that. Actually I use a macro provided by swagger to generate the right api.

9:37 clgv: yogsototh: I'd reread there docs and in case it's still not clear why it fails and how to use it right, you should report an issue

9:39 yogsototh: Yes thank you. I'll try to find a way. In the worst case, I'll look into the code ;-)

9:40 djcoin: I don't want to start a flamewar, but Would you recommend using Emacs over IntelliJ w/ Cursive ?

9:40 (or the other way around)

9:40 catern: yes

9:41 djcoin: (and yeah sorry, what would be the benefits of one vs the other?)

9:41 IntelliJ seems pretty capable, index stuff and may be easier, no?

9:42 catern: if you're familiar with IntelliJ I guess you can use it

9:42 cfleming: I'm biased since I develop Cursive, but I think it's a pretty nice environment now

9:42 In a lot of ways it's more sophisticated than Emacs, in some ways it's still catching up

9:42 But I'd say it's definitely easier to get started with

9:43 teslanick: I had trouble getting cursive+intellij12+clojurescript to work properly, but I'll admit that I didn't fight with it for very long.

9:43 catern: djcoin: there you go. you've got to be a Cursive developer to say Cursive is a pretty nice environment :P

9:43 cfleming: teslanick: when was that?

9:43 teslanick: Couple weeks ago

9:43 puredanger: here's a video about getting started with Cursive and ClojureScript from tbaldridge https://tbaldridge.pivotshare.com/media/cursive-and-clojurescript/12952/feature

9:44 cfleming: Hmm, that should have been ok, I'd be interested to know the problems you had

9:44 puredanger: Nice, I hadn't seen his cljs one

9:44 puredanger: I think he posted it last night :)

9:44 teslanick: cfleming: I can give it another whack over lunch and let you know

9:44 catern: djcoin: personally I think Emacs is just way better in general. so if you're looking for a place to develop software in general, I'd suggest Emacs and using it for Clojure incidentally; but if you're just looking to use Clojure only, it's a toss-up

9:44 cfleming: puredanger: That would explain it then :-)

9:45 puredanger: a number of people at Cognitect have switched from Emacs to Cursive as their daily tool

9:45 tbaldridge: I stopped using emacs when cider decided to start hanging my box when I printed 2000 lines.

9:45 catern: tbaldridge: and started using an IDE that will start hanging your box all the time? :)

9:46 cfleming: catern: Have you used IntelliJ?

9:46 catern: cfleming: in passing

9:46 tbaldridge: catern: never had it hang my box, and an IDE written in a modern language is a joy. GPU accelerated UIs and multicore indexing means the IDE just screams.

9:47 cfleming: tbaldridge: I've got to admit even I was surprised that speed was a major benefit of Cursive for you - it's good to hear, though.

9:47 tbaldridge: catern: don't confuse InteliJ with Eclipse, the latter is a pile of junk, in my experience.

9:47 djcoin: lol

9:47 :)

9:48 That's pretty harsh!

9:48 tbaldridge: cfleming: yeah, the syntax highlighter could be a tad faster I think, it boggs down when loading clojure/core.clj but that's about 7000 loc these days.

9:48 For normal clojure stuff it's super fast.

9:48 mavbozo: tbaldridge: wow

9:49 puredanger: I use Eclipse pretty regularly, but mostly for the Java parts of Clojure

9:49 cfleming: Yeah, clojure.core is always a bit of an issue for Cursive, it's just so big

9:49 tbaldridge: cfleming: to be fair it also boggs down in Compiler.java, but that's 10k loc :-)

9:49 TimMc: clojure.core bogs down my browser

9:49 cfleming: And having it spread over various files with load-file pretty much sucks too

9:50 tbaldridge: Heh, yeah, there's only so much you can do with some of those files :)

9:50 tbaldridge: puredanger: interesting, I noticed clojure/clojure includes Intelij project files, any reason for using Eclipse?

9:51 puredanger: I've used it since before 1.0 and it's comfortable for me

9:51 tbaldridge: fair enough

9:51 puredanger: Rich uses Intellij for it

9:51 tbaldridge: puredanger: that's why I use it, Rich always knows best

9:51 :-P

9:52 mavbozo: puredanger: what is rich's pc specs?

9:52 puredanger: mavbozo: macbook pro

9:52 mavbozo: puredanger: 16GB of RAM?

9:53 catern: it's java developer madness to want to go back to an IDE when your language has great support for non-IDEs

9:53 puredanger: mavbozo: dunno

9:53 catern: has superior support, that is

9:54 tbaldridge: catern: nah, it's just a question of how much you want to hander a soldering iron ;-)

9:54 puredanger: cfleming: I've taken a couple stabs at using Cursive but the keybinding stuff wore me out. Is there any way to better package a set of keybindings to start with? I don't even care what they are necessarily.

9:54 teslanick: catern: I don't understand, care to elaborate your position?

9:54 tbaldridge: s/hander/handler

9:54 fairuz: Hi guys. I tried to use nginx-clojure. Got it running. Accessing localhost:8080 shows the nginx default html page. But when I go to localhost:8080/clojure, there's an error saying classdefnotfound: clojure. How do I fix this? Apart from starting nginx, what else should I do? Thanks :)

9:55 mavbozo: puredanger: so, rich rarely use emacs for developing clojure then?

9:55 mpenet: so apparently arguing about editors is still a thing

9:55 cfleming: puredanger: Yeah, I really need to fix that - since v13 there's a new API I can use to make Clojure-specific actions specific to Clojure files, but I still can't create bindings based on the keymap the user has configured.

9:55 puredanger: mavbozo: he uses aquamacs I think. <shudder>

9:56 cfleming: puredanger: So short answer - it'll get better soon, but still not as nice as I'd like.

9:56 puredanger: cfleming: I'm really talking about the case of a user that is coming to Intellij/Cursive fresh and just wants a reasonable setup

9:56 catern: teslanick: IDEs are heavy, language-specific, slow, overcomplicated, difficult to customize, don't have console support, often die, have proprietary components, etc. etc. etc.

9:57 cfleming: catern: That's why real men use textedit

9:57 teslanick: I meant the other side of it: "when your language has [superior[ support for non-IDEs"

9:57 tbaldridge: catern: can be true, except when stuff like cider makes my emacs just as slow, overcomplicated and difficult to use. I want something that just works, and Cursive hit that sweet-spot for me.

9:57 puredanger: I think we're fortunate to have many good tool options for clojure and there is a good tool for everyone

9:57 cfleming: puredanger: Yeah, I know that pretty much sucks right now. One thing I'm considering is having some sort of popup when the user first installs to offer a choice of keybindings

9:58 ohpauleez: +1 - the tooling is very amazing

9:58 catern: teslanick: well on the whole, I'd guess the Emacs support is better than Cursive or... whatever for Eclipse

9:58 ohpauleez: across the board (generally speaking)

9:58 puredanger: cfleming: I would be happy for that.

9:58 cfleming: puredanger: i.e. emacs-like, or one based on the OSX keymap, etc

9:58 catern: tbaldridge: shrug. I don't see such slowness, overcomplication, or difficulty

9:59 fairuz: oh nvm.

9:59 cfleming: puredanger: The Jetbrains guys don't go much for those sorts of popups but I'm starting to think it's the only way

9:59 puredanger: There aren't many plugins that need as many keyboard shortcuts as Cursive does

10:00 mavbozo: a friend of mind, after spending a week to customize his intellij to be just like his emacs, found out that his 4 GB i3 macbook air cannot handle intellij smoothly

10:00 puredanger: cfleming: I'm happy to have a manual step to load a set of keybindings too - I just want that as one step, not setting each individually

10:00 mavbozo: so, intellij is quite good for clojure but be sure your pc is powerful

10:01 cfleming: puredanger: Yeah, I hear that. Another option would be just to distribute some exported keymaps that people can import - still not a very nice user experience, but at least it's just one step.

10:01 catern: oh also you should feel deep revulsion and sickness at the thought of using a Java IDE to develop in Lisp

10:01 mavbozo: based on puredanger answer, macbookpro is powerful enough for rich

10:02 puredanger: catern: even one written in Java? :)

10:02 cfleming: MBP works fine for IntelliJ, it's what I use

10:02 rweir: mbp with 16gb of ram handles intellij fine - my company buys jillions of them for that very purpose

10:02 catern: puredanger: abstraction!

10:02 cfleming: I have 4 projects open at any one time, 8GB RAM handles it easily

10:03 Cursive is a pretty big project, it's using around 120M right now

10:03 mdeboard: intellij

10:03 cfleming: I give IntelliJ 1G, it handles 4 large projects ok with that

10:05 puredanger: I'll let you know when the keymaps thing is better

10:05 puredanger: cfleming: no worries :) thx.

10:06 dnolen_: djcoin: after 7 years I'm tired of Clojure/Emacs, Intellij Cursive rocks - at this point I would recommend w/o question to people who want to try Clojure w/o hassle

10:06 ToxicFrog: I used IntelliJ for Clojure for a while, but I don't think I used Cursive, but some other clojure plugin.

10:06 Eventually ditched it in favour of Sublime Text.

10:06 dowwie: dnolen_ you try vim?

10:07 tbaldridge: ToxicFrog: LaClojure, I think. That's how I got started

10:07 cfleming: ToxicFrog: That was probably La Clojure

10:07 dnolen_: dowwie: I've tried pretty much everything, but I used Emacs still for many other things

10:07 djcoin: dnolen_: alright, thanks a lot. I tried Emacs in the past, then switched to Vim, and now as I'm planning to dive more into Clojure was thinking about going straight to Intellij which seems nice. Thanks :)

10:07 dnolen_: s/I use

10:07 tbaldridge: ToxicFrog: then I moved to whatever netbeans had, then to vim, then emacs, then back to Intellij

10:08 ToxicFrog: cfleming, tbaldridge: Yes! That's the one!

10:08 lvh: tbaldridge: I was wondering what that thing in the core.async videos (the for-pay ones) is; Intellij?

10:08 tbaldridge: yes

10:08 mavbozo: dnolen_: isn't Lighttable good enough for newbies?

10:08 ToxicFrog: I liked intellij but found it had way too much overhead (both resource and cognitive).

10:08 dnolen_: mavbozo: Light Table is good for newcomers but I found it frustrating for actual work

10:09 cfleming: ToxicFrog: Yeah, they haven't updated La Clojure for a long time now, it's unofficially deprecated in favour of Cursive

10:09 ToxicFrog: cfleming: yeah, I think I switched to ST before Cursive came out.

10:09 dnolen_: Cursive provides just good experience as LT w the exception of in editor eval of CLJS

10:09 for newcomers

10:10 cfleming: ToxicFrog: ST is actually meant to be pretty nice for Clojure these days

10:10 dnolen_: Yeah, I need to get a CLJS REPL going for Cursive

10:10 dnolen_: cfleming: ST drives me insane for Clojure dev :)

10:11 whack REPL, horrible namespace switching and inferior paredit (all these things things still seem to be true)

10:11 puredanger: I think Nightcode is a pretty good basic editor experience too

10:11 lvh: awesome thing that doesn't "click" until you actually use it: multimethods

10:11 dnolen_: I watched the Clojure Unity people use it

10:11 do not want

10:11 lvh: I'm sprinkling some multimethod all over everything and it's just so awesome

10:11 ToxicFrog: cfleming: I've found it so, but I also suspect I'm not really using ST to its full potential in many ways

10:11 E.g. I don't use paredit or the REPL

10:11 cfleming: dnolen_: I'll take your word for it, I've never used it. I tend to use it for my non-dev work but no more than that. That's a nasty list of non-features though :-)

10:12 dnolen_: cfleming: it's a fine text editor, but I really want something *better* than Emacs for Clojure

10:12 cfleming: dnolen_: Well, soon you'll be able to extract methods with Cursive, instead of doing it by hand like some sort of base animal :)

10:13 clgv: If I get the following expception I should see some :tag metadata containing a primitve type somewhere in the macroexpansion, right? Exception: "Can't type hint a local with a primitive initializer"

10:13 I used tools.macro to get the expansion

10:13 and *print-meta* true

10:15 TimMc: lvh: Careful, multimethods make code reloading a bit of a nightmare.

10:15 clojure.tools.namespace or whatever might help, though...

10:15 dnolen_: cfleming: my main Cursive pet peeves (they might exist) - pretty printed stepping macroexpand, macros that create bindings

10:15 tbaldridge: clgv: yeah, I'd like to fix that at some point as it even throws an error if the two tags match

10:15 lvh: TimMc: Why's that? The new defs don't override the old ones?

10:15 dnolen_: cfleming: indentation is also a bummer for me - I nearly always prefer 2 space indent

10:15 * tbaldridge puts that on the list of patches to code up

10:16 TimMc: lvh: I don't remember the details at this point, sorry.

10:16 clgv: tbaldridge: damn, I got this when changing a previously working macro :(

10:16 lvh: TimMc: Ah. Thanks anyway for the heads up :)

10:16 dnolen_: cfleming: the Emacs like indentation rules just results in crazy looking code

10:17 clgv: so I did not find any primitive tags, what can I look for to find the reason?

10:17 TimMc: lvh: I *think* just running defmethod again won't replace the definition.

10:17 cfleming: dnolen_: Yeah, the first is planned (I need to improve the formatting code a bit), it'll be interactive - i.e. expand next step, and highlight what just got expanded

10:17 dnolen_: optionally pretty print gensyms and hide FQNs too

10:17 tbaldridge: clgv: not seing the code, I don't know. I always got this error when trying to type-hint a let symbol that was already inferred from the binding of the let.

10:18 ephemeron: dnolen_: Which indentation rules?

10:18 clgv: tbaldridge: yeah that's what I thought the exception meant, as well

10:18 cfleming: dnolen_: the second is tougher, it'll be fixed with an extension API which I'm working towards

10:18 clgv: so going to check all :tag bindings

10:18 dnolen_: ephemeron: the always align fn argument rule, it's an abomination for any function with more than 3-4 letters

10:19 cfleming: dnolen_: when you talk about the Emacs indentation rules, you mean in Cursive?

10:19 martinklepsch: I wrote a post about s3 direct upload using core.async and transducers: http://www.martinklepsch.org/posts/using-coreasync-and-transducers-for-direct-s3-upload.html — would be interested in any feedback :)

10:19 dnolen_: cfleming: yes Cursive does the same thing

10:19 I want a knob for it

10:19 cfleming: dnolen_: Ok, what would you rather it did?

10:19 dnolen_: I've disabled it in Emacs

10:19 cfleming: always two space indent

10:19 except for obvious stuff like literals, binding forms

10:21 ephemeron: It seems reasonable to provide an alternative to vertical alignment, I agree.

10:22 mdrogalis: dnolen_: Yeah, concur. I've worked with people who use Cursive, and I see all sorts of non-standard whitespace formatting.

10:22 cfleming: dnolen_: Ah, I see - yeah a lot of people have asked for that. I'll get it in there soon. You want the default to be like Only Indent is in Cursive right now, right?

10:22 mdrogalis: Anything in particular jump out at you? It should pretty much format like Emacs now, which is the de-facto standard.

10:23 mdrogalis: cfleming: I have to admit that I don't use cursive, I just work with a few who do. I think they somehow got the editor to format in a really weird manner.

10:23 cfleming: So in short, maybe there's nothing to fix. :P Heh.

10:24 cfleming: mdrogalis: That's my favourite sort of bug report :)

10:24 tbaldridge: mdrogalis: cfleming: I finally got it working after messing with the indent settings for about an hour. The defaults are a bit odd. So yea, the first attempt by a newbie will produce some odd looking code.

10:24 clgv: tbaldridge: it would be great to get the name of the offending binding... as with other clojure compiler errors where details are missing ;)

10:26 cfleming: tbaldridge: Interesting, I thought the defaults were fairly sane these days. Do you remember what you changed?

10:26 hugod: what are people's biggest complaints with cider?

10:27 lvh: How do I spell "take everything from this channel, dump it on that channel over there, and block/park until it closes?"

10:27 cbp: cider is like a box of chocolates

10:28 you neer know what youre gonna get

10:31 hugod: cbp: is that caused by running from snapshots and melpa builds?

10:33 clgv: that's a thing I always wondered. are there stable builds for e.g. cider?

10:33 lvh: I have a bunch of expressions that eval to channels that give some items and then close; I'd like to evaluate them in order, waiting until one is done before doing the next one, and collecting all the itmes (in order, on a chan). Here's what I came up with: https://gist.github.com/lvh/a78a817ae19e141cd529

10:33 I don't know if that's a good way to spell it.

10:33 cbp: hugod: of course

10:34 lvh: (i know that code waits for each sub-part to be done before publishing all of the individual results)

10:34 hugod: clgv,cbp: there is a 0.7.0 stable release

10:34 lvh: I guess I want pipe & "park until this thing closes"?

10:36 clgv: hugod: ah ok so you can jump manually from release to release?

10:37 hugod: clgv: yes - the 0.7.0 emacs lisp code is in the melpa stable repository

10:39 mavbozo: clgv: i used cider from melpa before but found it breaks often, so now i use melpa-stable

10:43 clgv: hugod: ah ok. thanks for the information. my emacs experience is pretty limited ;)

10:46 TimMc: ++ for mimicking the Emacs de facto standard here

10:46 whoops, was in scrollback-land

10:51 borkdude: ,(+1 2 3)

10:51 clojurebot: #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>

10:51 borkdude: ,(+ 1 2 3)

10:51 clojurebot: 6

10:52 borkdude: $(+ 1 2 3)

10:52 &(+ 1 2 3)

10:52 hyPiRion: lazybot is dead

10:52 tbaldridge: borkdude: what are you trying to do?

10:52 borkdude: tbaldridge I was showing my colleague how #clojure evaluates exprs

10:52 tbaldridge but I forgot some of the characters

10:53 * TimMc hands borkdude (repeat \space) for future use

10:54 TimMc: borkdude: There's also ##(+ 1 2 3) if the expression starts with a paren

10:54 and if lazybot weren't dead

10:59 clgv: hyPiRion: does he get an update eventually? :P

11:01 hyPiRion: Raynes, amalloy_: lazybot is dead.

11:04 mdeboard: long live lazybot!

11:04 dnolen_: cfleming: I don't really care about default just want the knob - are you saying it's already possible?

11:05 borkdude: is it possible to start lein cljsbuild auto with cursive? (just trying it out now)

11:09 of course I can run it externally

11:16 cbp: ~java

11:16 clojurebot:

11:16 cbp: o_O

11:16 mdeboard: hey

11:16 good job emacs

11:16 you rendered whatever the hell that character is

11:16 apparently some kind of unicode thing

11:16 cbp: not for me :-o

11:17 hugod: cfleming: in what ways is cursive more sophisticated than cider?

11:17 mdeboard: cbp: Are you using rcirc/

11:17 cbp: name: HOT BEVERAGE

11:17 I'm using erc

11:17 mdeboard: Oh, you're one of those

11:17 * cbp feels offended

11:18 mdeboard: one of THOSE people

11:22 lvh: hm; has anyone written regexes-over-arbitrary-values yet?

11:22 I want to express something like "this thing is a sequence of these elements, then these five elements in any order, then these three elements, then..."

11:23 trptcolin: lvh: like https://github.com/jclaggett/seqex

11:23 lvh: I guess maybe I can write that as take

11:23 oooooo

11:23 trptcolin: Thank you :)

11:23 trptcolin: or or https://github.com/cgrand/seqexp

11:32 * TimMc files those away for future reference

11:33 TimMc: lvh: I recall encountering some Java library that did that, maybe 3-5 years ago.

11:34 It was in use by an NLP project, probably to recognize certain grammatical constructions.

12:08 jtackett: Hey guys, I’m looking for a way to get around the heroku request time out issue

12:08 I have a long running process that I need to display on the next page upon request

12:14 rweir: prolly want the heroku scheduler thing?

12:16 Jumblemuddle: How would I go about creating a program that can interact directly with an external monitor? (Think Ms-Powerpoint)

12:17 klyed2: jtackett: never used heroku, but you might want to have a self-rescheduling task, and your page load auto-refreshes until the task flags itself as completed

12:18 jtackett: that’s a good idea

12:18 how do you have the page auto-refresh?

12:18 klyed2: jtackett: javascript or look up refresh meta tag for html

12:19 rweir: Jumblemuddle, pretty sure powerpoint doesn't do that

12:20 Jumblemuddle, you'd have to look at whatever GUI toolkit you used's multiple monitor support

12:22 Jumblemuddle: rweir: Hmm, I guess I hadn't thought about it much. I suppose it just creates a window and resizes it to the monitor? If so, it would be very different on linux. I wonder if xorg would allow for 2 x-session, where 1 first one would control the 2nd?

12:22 rweir: that sounds like a really weird way to show two windows

12:22 Jumblemuddle: (I'm attempting to create a presentation program in clojure)

12:22 Ya, it does feel like a hack.

12:23 Although, having it just be an extended monitor, makes me feel ocd.

12:23 dbasch: jumblemuddle: this is not really a clojure question, it’s more about Swing or whatever you’re using like rweir said. See for example: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4627553/java-show-jframe-in-a-specific-screen-in-dual-monitor-configuration

12:24 Jumblemuddle: Ya, I was hoping there would be some fancy clojure library for it. However, I can see how it wouldn't be clojure specific. Thanks for the help!

12:26 dbasch: jumblemuddle: you may want to ask here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/seesaw-clj

12:27 Jumblemuddle: Interesting, thanks.

12:33 upwardindex: ,(byte (.byteValue 128))

12:33 clojurebot: -128

12:33 upwardindex: Why does this throw ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException on my machine?

12:39 trptcolin: are you using it as an index? i don't think either Long.byteValue or clojure.core/byte can throw that exception

12:39 upwardindex: trptcolin: I’m simply writing in the repl what I wrote here but without the comma

12:40 I get “ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException java.lang.Byte.valueOf (Byte.java:101)” as an answer

12:43 trptcolin: upwardindex: want to link a gist w/ details? stack trace, clj/java versions, etc?

12:43 klyed2: upwardindex: possible a function/macro is defined?

12:44 dbasch: upwardindex: what version of clojure?

12:44 upwardindex: dbasch: 1.5.1, I’ll put up a gist with all info as suggested by trptcolin

12:46 thesaskwatch: hi .. most of the sql generation libraries/db cliients seem to use globally bound database var, is this idiomatic clojure?

12:47 mpenet: no not really

12:48 thesaskwatch: it doesn't sound very safe to me, that's why I find it weird

12:48 mpenet: most sql clients don't do that, ex clojure.java.jdbc

12:49 Korma does, but I am not sure it's in good shape these days

12:49 trptcolin: see http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2014/04/26/major-breaking-public-api-changes-coming-in-our-projects/

12:50 thesaskwatch: mpenet: yes, that's the main client, but it's only a wrapper over jdbc .. I don't see sql generation there beyond simple cases

12:50 mpenet: there are a few lib dedicated to that I think

12:51 thesaskwatch: trptcolin: I agree with this point of view, that's why I'm asking

12:52 mpenet: see under "sql abstraction": http://www.clojure-toolbox.com/

12:54 thesaskwatch: mpenet: thanks

12:55 mdrogalis: thesaskwatch: FWIW, HoneySQL is my choice of SQL lib these days.

12:56 thesaskwatch: mdrogalis: readme says updates are not implemented

12:56 mdrogalis: though https://github.com/jkk/honeysql/issues/7#issuecomment-52526575

12:57 mpenet: mdrogalis: but HoneySQL only support select I think

12:57 mdrogalis: thesaskwatch: They actually are implemented, but not documented.

12:57 I have an issue open to add it to the README

12:58 thesaskwatch: mdrogalis: ok, I'll dive into it. But do I understand it correctly that it generates sql string that I can later send to clojure jdbc?

13:02 ok, this example makes sense https://github.com/sorribas/clj-blog/blob/9678eb4ff06e8c9f1ea01b42bc008b9cbefd365e/src/clj_blog/db.clj

13:04 mdrogalis: thesaskwatch: Correct.

13:12 danneu: i think it's much easier to just use jdbc directly

13:13 though i wish the driver allowed positional parameters "WHERE id = $1 AND x = $2" instead of "WHERE id = ? AND x = ?"

13:15 csd_: Is it possible to do an equivalent of macro-expand for a function? I'm trying to figure out how to solve http://www.4clojure.com/problem/158

13:20 danneu: speaking of clojurewerkz apis, i wonder why they choose style A over style B https://www.refheap.com/89801

13:22 by going with style A, it's now nontrivial to modify the options programmatically (associng into map).

13:22 korma vs honeysql is another example

13:27 mikerod: I posed the question yesterday as to why Clojure cannot provide type inference in a situation like: (doseq [my-thing (.getThings ^ThingHolder holder)] (.doThingMethod my-thing))

13:27 Where: ThingHolder#getThings returns Collection<Thing>

13:27 and: Thing#doThingMethod is an instance method

13:27 llasram: csd_: I see the analogy you're trying to draw, but not really...

13:27 mikerod: To keep reflection away, I have to: (doseq [my-thing (.getThings ^ThingHolder holder)] (.doThingMethod ^Thing my-thing))

13:27 technomancy: mikerod: it may be that doseq calls seq rather than using the array directly?

13:28 mikerod: technomancy: Well, I dug into Compiler some. It "sort of" has to do with Java type-erasure it seems.

13:28 csd_: llasram: my other thought is to use eval + reduce, to wrap the args successively around the decurryed function

13:28 mikerod: but when I dug down that route a bit more, it is still possible to find the parameterized type information in the class files

13:28 technomancy: mikerod: I suspect it could be done but just wasn't deemed worth the effort at the time

13:28 mikerod: technomancy: yes, I think it'd be very difficult

13:29 In a general sort of sense

13:29 However, when dealing with a reasonable amount of Java interop - it does get a bit frustrating/verbose if you are wanting to avoid reflection

13:29 technomancy: you could write a type-preserving-doseq I bet

13:29 but doing it in the general case would be tricky

13:30 mikerod: Newer people to Clojure always assume that the type info will be inferred in this sort of case, since the information is "available"

13:31 technomancy: "It's Java; it's not supposed to be easy."

13:31 mikerod: technomancy: exactly, for `doseq` it shouldn't be too hard. but down at the compiler inference level for like Compiler$InstanceMethodExpr#getJavaClass level - looks hard

13:31 csd_: llasram: doing eval + reduce works but it seems like there has to be a better way

13:32 also 4clojure blocks eval evidently...

13:33 mikerod: Then again, there are heterogenous seqs you could create as well, so then it doesn't even make sense to try to auto-hint some of them for their Java interop. I just found this topic interesting and now I can see why the inference doesn't work.

13:33 technomancy: "It's Java; it's not supposed to be easy." - I'll remember this advice and use it in response to anyone new who sees this lack of inference to be a weakness. :P

13:35 it is still less verbose typing than Java would require overall though, so I guess it isn't really a weakness. I just say use `(set! *warn-on-reflection* true)` when you develop.

13:35 llasram: csd_: Well, you definitely don't need `eval`, but `reduce` is on the right track :-)

13:35 s/the/a/

13:36 technomancy: mikerod: just because not all seqs are homogeneous doesn't mean they shouldn't be hinted for cases when you know they are

13:37 mikerod: technomancy: yes, but I'd imagine that would get ugly with something like (doseq [o (concat (.getThings x) (.getSomethingElses y))] <...>)

13:37 csd_: llasram: just got it :) tricky

13:37 mikerod: if the compiler was attempting to type hint the o

13:38 technomancy: mikerod: seems completely reasonable to just leave the hints off in complicated situations

13:38 at least for a first pass

13:38 mikerod: technomancy: yes, that's what I was thinking

13:39 if there is a "union of types" inferred for a seq, then just stop auto-inference

13:39 llasram: csd_: (partial partial #(reduce deliver %&)), right?

13:39 j/k

13:40 csd_: that went over my head but i did reduce #(%1 %2) f n

13:40 where f was the function chain and n was the vector of numbers

13:40 llasram: csd_: Yeah, good job. For obfuscation purposes, `deliver` acts like `#(%1 %2)` :-)

13:41 csd_: never seen that before

13:41 llasram: I do sometimes wish for a real `funcall` in the language... Not often, but

13:42 bja: is there a handy function for showing the source of a namespace when I'm in my repo?

13:42 repl?

13:47 jtackett: bja: if you require the ns and name it something, then you’ll always now

13:47 (require namespace.util :as nameOfns)

13:47 trptcolin: bja: that would be pretty cool. but i think something like (println (slurp (clojure.java.io/resource "clojure/string.clj"))) is the best you have

13:47 keeping in mind that the source of an ns may be spread across files

13:48 jtackett: oh you mean where it is in your directory

13:48 nvm

13:48 bja: trptcolin, understood. I'm just trying to figure out why lein classpath and lein deps :tree seem to be lying to me

13:48 trptcolin: plugins?

13:48 arrdem: llasram: what would funcall do for you?

13:48 technomancy: same thing it does in every language

13:48 try to take over the world!

13:48 llasram: (inc technomancy)

13:48 heh

13:49 arrdem: wow... Raynes and Lazybot both MIA...

13:49 danneu: i understand that a macro captures lexical scope at definition. like if you redefine `if`, then a macro with `(if ...) will expand to (my.ns/if ...). But what if you don't export your `if` redefinition?

13:49 llasram: arrdem: Do you mean "when would it be useful"?

13:50 arrdem: llasram: essentially.

13:50 trptcolin: danneu: that sounds like not a macro feature - more of a syntax-quote feature

13:50 bja: ...

13:50 (-> "ring/util/codec.clj" clojure.java.io/resource slurp println) shows me assoc-conj in the source code

13:51 yet (require '[ring.util.codec :refer [assoc-conj]]) fails

13:51 llasram: arrdem: when you have a collection of arbitrary functions you want to call in a non-`apply` fashion

13:51 It doesn't happen often, and #(%) or #(apply %1 %&) works fine, but the actual name "funcall" would (IMHO) be clearer

13:52 trptcolin: bje: got any deps that are uberjarred up and including different versions of ring.util.codec?

13:52 bja: I don't think so, and I've actually :exclusions [ring] out of just about everything else

13:52 trptcolin: those can be tricky

13:53 bja: maybe there is something that has a dependency somewhere

13:53 trptcolin: that wouldn't help for uberjarred libs

13:53 bja: but I don't understand why require would find a different thing on the classpath than clojure.java.io/resource

13:58 danneu: anybody know of a js markdown lib and a clj/java markdown lib that are compatible enough?

13:59 MagBo: Hey, beautiful people! lein is so painfully slow I wonder if there is a way to run it as a server?

13:59 trptcolin: bja: .class files come first

13:59 in the lookup order of require

13:59 danneu: MagBo: what are you trying to do

14:00 MagBo: danneu: building projects on a slow network.

14:00 I'm not even sure what's the bottleneck — JRE bootstrapping or network :)

14:01 danneu: MagBo: the only time i use lein during dev is when im booting nrepl and booting the webapp server (lein ring server-headless)

14:01 technomancy: MagBo: there are a few options here https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Faster

14:02 MagBo: <3 I'm sorry that I didn't read the docs

14:02 Thank you so much.

14:02 danneu: oh, https://github.com/yogthos/markdown-clj comes with the compiled js. <3 u yogthos

14:03 technomancy: MagBo: well in this case it's the wiki, not the official docs, so it's a bit more obscure

14:04 csd_: Why are vectors not considered seqs

14:05 technomancy: seqs are O(n)

14:05 I mean, lots of reasons, including that

14:06 csd_: doesnt it satisfy ISeq though

14:08 MagBo: technomancy: btw, can I msg you w/ offtopic? I'm curious about how and if you're using Erlang. :-)

14:08 technomancy: MagBo: sure

14:09 llasram: csd_: I'd argue "just because they aren't implemented that way"

14:09 technomancy: you can get a seq from a vector, but that doesn't mean they're the same tihng

14:10 llasram: technomancy: Sure, but

14:10 I can't off the top of my head think of why vectors don't directly implement `ISeq`

14:10 Clojure separates `Seqable` from `ISeq` so you can `seq` things which don't directly implement `ISeq`, but e.g. lists do the latter

14:10 Bronsa: llasram: it might be implementation defined but I associate ISeq with conj=cons

14:11 i.e. I'd expect conj to behave like cons on a seq

14:12 llasram: Oh, interesting. Yeah, otherwise I'm not sure how you'd get the current behavior of `(cons x (seq a-vector))`

14:12 Er

14:12 You know what I meant

14:12 (conj (seq a-vector) x), but actually my previous attempt shows exactly how you'd get that :-)

14:35 stompyj: its interesting how both clojure and data related hn posts get upvotes, but fewer comments

14:36 bja: fwiw, it was the 0.9.2-incubating store-core that got me

15:09 shiranaihito: what's the right way to :require several namespaces that share a common "prefix"?

15:09 something like [some.thing other1 other2] doesn

15:09 .. 't seem to work :p

15:12 llasram: shiranaihito: (:require [some.thing.other1] [some.thing.other2]), or

15:12 shiranaihito: mmm

15:12 llasram: shiranaihito: (:require [some.thing (other1 :as other1) (other2 :as other2)])

15:12 shiranaihito: (:require [clojure.contrib sql sql.tests]) <-- this is the kind of way i've tried.. but it doesn't seem to work

15:12 i must be missing something here :p

15:13 llasram: (doc require)

15:13 clojurebot: "([& args]); Loads libs, skipping any that are already loaded. Each argument is either a libspec that identifies a lib, a prefix list that identifies multiple libs whose names share a common prefix, or a flag that modifies how all the identified libs are loaded. Use :require in the ns macro in preference to calling this directly. Libs A 'lib' is a named set of resources in classpath whose contents define a library of

15:14 shiranaihito: yep.. but that doesn't really tell us much about how to use it in practice :p .. in fact, this is a common problem with the Clojure docs

15:14 llasram: shiranaihito: Actually, what you were trying to do should work fine

15:14 ,(require '[clojure.core protocols reducers])

15:14 clojurebot: #<FileNotFoundException java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/core/reducers__init.class or clojure/core/reducers.clj on classpath: >

15:14 llasram: Thanks, clojurebot

15:14 shiranaihito: :P

15:15 when do i need to quote a vec in :require.. ?

15:15 i've been getting by without quoting :p

15:16 llasram: shiranaihito: The entire body of your `ns` form is processed quoted, so you don't need to quote anything inside it yourself

15:16 shiranaihito: ok, cool :p

15:16 hm

15:16 llasram: shiranaihito: But `require` is a function, so you need to quote symbols you pass to it

15:16 ,(require '[clojure set data])

15:16 clojurebot: nil

15:16 llasram: There we go

15:16 shiranaihito: well.. this isn't working: https://www.refheap.com/89811

15:17 (the last line in particular)

15:17 llasram: What exception do you get?

15:17 shiranaihito: "java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: user/schema" .. but "schema" does exist there

15:17 and Cursive doesn't think "user" gets imported

15:18 llasram: Ohhhhhhhhh

15:18 There's a specific problem with namespaces named "user"

15:18 shiranaihito: :D

15:18 wtf :p

15:18 llasram: Work-around -- don't use the token 'user' as the component of a namespace

15:18 shiranaihito: well this is .. sad? :p

15:19 feels like something hacky is going on

15:19 at least it works when directly referenced

15:19 llasram: shiranaihito: It should only be a problem if you use `user` an an alias, like (:require [whatever.path.user :as user])

15:20 shiranaihito: this works though: [c2d.module.user :as user]

15:20 llasram: It works there, but will probably explode elsewhere

15:20 shiranaihito: huh?

15:20 how long has this been a problem and why isn't it fixed?

15:22 well, i don't want to call it anything other than "user" because i'm dealing with.. *users*, and i want the singular form.. :o

15:22 llasram: I think a few reasons... It's probably mostly/only a REPL issue, and maybe specifically a REPLy issue

15:22 Here's some discussion: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1619#issuecomment-51144655

15:22 And Clojure has a feature where it auto-loads a namespace named just 'user', so I think people avoid using 'user' to refer to anything else

15:23 shiranaihito: luckily i don't really care about the REPL :)

15:23 stompyj: not sure reserved keywords are hacky

15:23 shiranaihito: it's not like it's a reserved keyword in the language

15:23 technomancy: clojure allows too much ambiguity here

15:24 you have an unfortunate overlap between the alias and an existing namespace

15:24 you would probably get something similar if you required something :as clojure.set

15:25 shiranaihito: well, how about naming the built-in "user" as "_user" or something.. to let people have their own namespace called "user" without problems?

15:25 stompyj: right, but you drop into a repl

15:25 you need a ns right?

15:25 technomancy: shiranaihito: sounds reasonable to me, but you're unlikely to convince rich

15:25 shiranaihito: i just want to be able to name my namespaces the way i want to :P and now i want "user" :) i don't think it's unreasonable of me :p

15:26 technomancy: also that's a breaking backwards-incompatible change, technically

15:26 stompyj: so we change user to _user

15:26 octe: would a try-catch make any differences for return values for a function?

15:26 stompyj: then someone wants to use _user

15:26 technomancy: the whole point of namespaces are really to be unique and not conflict with each other, so...

15:26 stompyj: then what? :)

15:26 shiranaihito: where's the default "user" ns used anyway?

15:26 octe: returning a value from the try part

15:26 with no exception thrown

15:27 shiranaihito: technomancy: yes.. i'm perfectly fine with that rule *for namespaces i've created* .. but not fine with Clojure preventing me from using a specific, *extremely* common concept as a namespace's name

15:28 how many apps don't have "users"? :p

15:28 technomancy: yeah, I didn't pick the name, but that ship has sailed

15:28 stompyj: shiranaihito: I hear what you’re saying,but this kind of game can be played ad finitium

15:29 sometimes you just have to make a decision and frustrate 1 out of 10000 users

15:29 shiranaihito: sure, the ship has sailed, but that's got nothing to do with whether this is a problem or not :) .. you were just suggesting i should "make my namespaces unique" .. and that's what i'm planning to do, but wouldn't expect Clojure to get in the way there :)

15:29 stompyj: you could fork clojure, and change it

15:29 shiranaihito: :P

15:29 stompyj: who knows, you could be the next Rich :D

15:29 shiranaihito: i doubt that :p

15:29 but alright.. i guess i'll manage, as long as it works when directly referenced

15:30 technomancy: I am sympathetic but skeptical that much can be done about it.

15:30 shiranaihito: yep

15:31 stompyj: same, I was sort of teasing you

15:31 but I’m sympathetic too

15:31 shiranaihito: well, i'd guesstimate that it couldn't be *too* difficult to "fix" this

15:31 stompyj: but as you know, naming is always difficult

15:32 shiranaihito: is the "user" namespace mostly just used within the REPL?

15:33 technomancy: shiranaihito: it's also used to hack into the clojure boot process

15:33 since clojure has undocumented behaviour of automatically loading user.clj if it's found on the classpath

15:33 shiranaihito: that doesn't sound like a common task either :p

15:33 technomancy: I think component uses it?

15:33 or some wrapper around component, maybe

15:34 shiranaihito: i'm not familiar with "component", but that's alright

15:34 oh well

15:39 hiredman: component does not

15:40 jig does crazy things like that, so maybe it does that

15:41 stuartsierra: 'component' doesn't do anything with user.clj. My `reloaded` template includes user.clj stuff.

15:42 I've been thinking of replacing it with something like `dev.clj` instead.

15:46 arrdem: rasmusto: ping

15:46 justin_smith: arrdem: saw that tweet, and realized my deadline is in good shape and I could get back on IRC again :P

15:47 arrdem: justin_smith: :P thanks

15:47 cc puredanger

15:47 puredanger: eh?

15:47 arrdem: puredanger: thanks I'll bug him

15:53 shiranaihito: arrdem: how disheartened should i be about Vars' performance? :)

15:53 arrdem: shiranaihito: don't worry about it.

15:53 shiranaihito: :p

15:53 i saw Oxcart on HN today

15:53 sounds good

15:53 arrdem: oh ffs the project's dead and _now_ it makes HN again?

15:53 dgaffney: Sup folks! I'm pretty green to clojure and am playing with an API project. I'm wondering how, in the route function on line 14 of this gist, I would be able to leverage the collection and action to serve as a namespace and function, respectively, with the params passed through to that function - I come from ruby, so in that case I would just do something like collection.classify.constantize.send(action, params), but this ain't ruby, so, I du

15:53 nno how to do this yet - thoughts? (GIST: https://gist.github.com/DGaffney/665be9368f2798493233)

15:54 shiranaihito: arrdem: dead? :x

15:54 well, i'm not sure how i ended up looking at Oxcart

15:54 but you've called it quits?

15:54 * arrdem digs for the blog post

15:55 arrdem: shiranaihito: http://arrdem.com/2014/08/05/of_oxen,_carts_and_ordering/

15:56 shiranaihito: issue is that clojure was designed to be a dynamic language and is a limiting/complicating substrate for building a static compiler. the performance gain was kinda minimal (< 25%) and I didn't finish the real low profile build target before GSoC ended and I went back to school.

15:56 justin_smith: dgaffney: I would pass the handler function to call as an argument to respond

15:56 shiranaihito: arrdem: i wouldn't call 25% minimal

15:57 amalloy: arrdem: fundimental =~ s/i/a/

15:57 justin_smith: so instead of ["user" "create" params] pass [user-controller/create params]

15:57 where user-controller/create does the action you desire

15:57 arrdem: amalloy: in the post?

15:57 amalloy: yeah

15:57 arrdem: meh

15:57 dgaffney: mm - i see hot it is justin_smith

15:57 * arrdem spellchecks

15:58 dgaffney: thanks!

15:58 justin_smith: dgaffney: typically I have a "controller ns" (like user-controller) for each endpoint, and then define handlers for various parameters or subroutes there

15:58 arrdem: git commit -m "amalloy sees all my flaws"

15:58 dgaffney: rgr!

15:59 amalloy: clojurebot: amalloy |sees| all your flaws

15:59 clojurebot: A nod, you know, is as good as a wink to a blind horse.

15:59 shiranaihito: arrdem: so like.. that's it then.. no performance improvements for Clojure on the horizon? :)

15:59 arrdem: shiranaihito: 1.7.0 is projected to have Rich's blessed implementation of static linking, which is rumored to achieve a 10%-15% speedup on par with Oxcart's performance on "normal" (non-benchmark) programs.

16:00 shiranaihito: oh? sounds good

16:00 but that's not related to Vars?

16:00 justin_smith: dgaffney: in your case, "respond" could disappear altogether (replaced by directly calling the handler wanted for the route), or it could remain as a place where middleware is applied (though you can also apply all the middleware to the route itself)

16:00 TimMc: Ooh, are we editing blog posts?

16:00 shiranaihito: roughly how much worse is Clojure's performance compared to Java btw?

16:00 (me is still a noob :p)

16:01 arrdem: shiranaihito: vars are just a binding structure used to achieve dynamic linking and to simplify the compiler. the performance overhead is actually kinda minimal and the interactive development benifits are huge.

16:02 llasram: shiranaihito: It depends on how you write your code. You can generally achieve exactly the same speed as Java, but usually not with the most idiomatic Clojure

16:02 dgaffney: justin_smith: I think I'll do something like (respond user-controller/create params) and leave that middleware as a general one - it'll probably just json it anyways.

16:02 llasram: shiranaihito: In practice you almost always trade the former for the latter (and the associated increase in expressiveness and flexibility))

16:02 stompyj: shiranaihito: the way I like ot think about it is, out of the box, its probably the fastest dynamic language you’ll find

16:02 shiranaihito: arrdem: well.. "dynamic linking" goes over my head :P and i'm still confused about you calling the "< 25%" improvement "minimal" :)

16:03 justin_smith: shiranaihito: the difference in clojure vs. java runtime performance really depends heavily on what the bottlenecks of your task are - clojure tends to be bad for numerics or CPU-bound tasks, but if your main concerns are keeping threads in sync as you work on pervasively concurrent tasks it can be much closer to java in performance

16:03 dgaffney: now, here's the other question justin_smith - these four controllers are going to be remarkably similar - what do clojure humans call the practice known as modules in ruby?

16:03 I guess its just another namespace and you call out to the namespace from user-controller?

16:03 shiranaihito: llasram: alright.. well, what's the most common performance detriment in idiomatic Clojure?

16:03 dgaffney: (This clojure thing is winning me over finally, I think)

16:03 justin_smith: dgaffney: I will often make a higher order function that outputs my controllers in such a case

16:04 ie. from some code I was just editing now (def culture-detail "construct the culture commentary action" (commentary :culture-detail :culture-detail :culture-filter))

16:04 shiranaihito: dgaffney: i'm still new to Clojure too, but convinced that it's the best environment overall :)

16:04 well.. relatively new

16:04 justin_smith: dgaffney: the above returns a new request handler, parameterized on those keywords

16:04 shiranaihito: stompyj: you're probably right about that

16:04 dgaffney: cool cool

16:05 llasram: shiranaihito: I'd guess either extra allocations or lost JIT opportunities via additional layers layers of indirection. Hard to know for sure, and also not worth worrying about

16:05 justin_smith: dgaffney: where commentary gathers some data from the db and renders a request, and those keys help it find the right data and do the right actions to it

16:05 dgaffney: alright, I may buzz back in but that helps me get past this block for now!

16:05 nice - thanks man!

16:05 stompyj: shiranaihito: I ported one of our data api services from ruby to clojure

16:05 and went from 6 aws boxes to one

16:05 reduced LOC by 20%

16:05 shiranaihito: llasram: altight.. well, today i was worrying about whether Clojure functions tend to get inlined by the JVM :)

16:05 stompyj: and tests by 50%

16:05 shiranaihito: but i guess they do

16:05 stompyj: oh? nice :)

16:06 dgaffney: ooh! One more question. Say I want sub folders in my src/project-name folder - any weirdness there, or can I just make the folder?

16:06 stuartsierra: Biggest (and easiest-to-fix) performance problem in Clojure programs is reflective Java method calls.

16:06 dgaffney: i.e. does that sub folder structure have to be mirrored in the code somehow?

16:06 dnolen_: justin_smith: most of your statements about Clojure numerics or perf are not accurate - it's really more of question of whether you want to write lower-level code directly in Clojure or not.

16:06 TimMc: dgaffney: It has to match the namespaces.

16:06 allenj12: does anyone know if there is a nth equivalent for the vector type in core.matrix

16:06 justin_smith: dgaffney: a nested set of folders and a nested set of namespaces should follow one another in structure

16:07 TimMc: dgaffney: foo.bar-baz.quux lives in src/foo/bar_baz/quux.clj (note the underscore and hyphen)

16:07 dnolen_: shiranaihito: there is an optimizable subset of Clojure for people that need it - in some cases it's simpler to just write Java - in other macro code generation is a net win

16:07 dgaffney: so if we were to throw those controllers, it could look like.. uhh... controllers.user/create?

16:07 shiranaihito: stuartsierra: so i'm fine if i just "type" function parameters? .. there was something about Leiningen, i think, that helps find the reflective calls.. ?

16:07 justin_smith: dgaffney: right

16:07 allenj12: when i try nth on a vector type in core.matrix it says nth not supported

16:07 dgaffney: great. Whats the deal with underscore/hyphen? Just 'cause?

16:08 justin_smith: allenj12: nth is for linear time lookup, why do that to an associative datatype?

16:08 llasram: justin_smith: Hmmm, not true

16:08 TimMc: Java doesn't like hyphens in package names, but Clojure prefers it to underscores in names.

16:08 stompyj: shiranaihito: I left the JVM in disgust and anger about 14 years ago, resolved never to come back, but last year clojure brought me back :)

16:08 dgaffney: rgr - thanks TimMc

16:08 technomancy: dgaffney: "just cause" basically yeah

16:08 it's dumb

16:09 TimMc: (where "doesn't like" = blows up, and "prefers" refers to idioms, not compilation considerations)

16:09 dgaffney: I'm of the belief that every language being used will eventually have some just 'cause reasons - no biggie!

16:09 amalloy: justin_smith: nth is O(1) on vectors

16:09 shiranaihito: stompyj: why so angry? :P .. btw, Java 1.8 is pretty sweet anyway :)

16:09 allenj12: justin_smith: o wow im silly should be using .get shouldnt i be

16:09 hiredman: allenj12: there are, core matrix has specialized functions for 1d and 2d matrices and a general function for more

16:09 allenj12: but I forget what they are, so check the docs

16:09 stuartsierra: shiranaihito: `lein check`

16:09 amalloy: stuartsierra: reflection is so easy to fix i'd almost rather say boxed numbers are a bigger performance problem, because i spend hours tracking those down when i care about performance of course, reflection costs much more if left unfixed, but it's easy to fix

16:10 shiranaihito: ah, thanks

16:10 stuartsierra: Or `(set! *warn-on-reflection* true)` in the REPL

16:10 Then reload.

16:10 stompyj: shiranaihito: I’m sure java is 1000x better now. Java when it was at 1.1 / 1.2 was a different beast I think :)

16:10 applets were still a thing, and EJBs were the only option for server side stuuff

16:10 TimMc: stompyj: I came back around 1.5 and was all "WTF is this generics stuff?"

16:10 amalloy: there's also a flag you can put in project.clj to make it always activate warn-on-reflection

16:11 :warn-on-reflection true

16:11 hiredman: allenj12: mget is the function you want

16:11 amalloy: oh, but that's deprecated, so instead you're supposed to say :global-vars {*warn-on-reflection* true}

16:11 allenj12: hiredman: ahh kk,

16:11 stompyj: TimMc: hahahaha, yeah, since my Cloversion(tm) I’ve been checking out Java again

16:13 TimMc:

16:35 allenj12: anyone here use gorrila? im trying to plot two sets of points and a line and its not really coming out right.. not scaled correctly or something

16:41 SagiCZ1: allenj12: whats gorrila?

16:42 allenj12: SagiCZ1: its pretty cool for like practicing machine learning stuff, its like ipythonnotebook if you know that.. its an editor in your browser that has multiple cells for editing and a nice plotting library

16:42 amalloy: today, on "Weird things programmers say": "What is gorilla"

16:42 justin_smith: (inc amalloy)

16:42 amalloy: lazybot is super-lazy today

16:43 justin_smith: may not even be on line

16:44 {blake_}: Brain and brain! What is brain?!

16:47 justin_smith: 🎶 what is love? 🎶

17:04 hiredman: ugh

17:05 SagiCZ1: allenj12: cool thanks :)

17:08 puredanger: I can't believe no one has yet said Wot Gorilla? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wootFX07sX0

17:15 borkdude: jackjames thanks for recommending emacs prelude, today I switched over

17:16 razum2um1: justin_smith: hey! i made this: https://github.com/razum2um/aprint

17:16 jackjames: borkdude, don't think it was me, because i don't know what that is

17:16 borkdude: lol ok

17:17 whoever it was then

17:17 serjeem___: Is there a generally accepted way to build/document the apis for libraries in clojure?

17:18 i'd love something like haddock for the documentation. i'm leaning towards potemkin's import-vars for exposing the api

17:19 razum2um1: justin_smith: readabilyty matters, isn't it?

17:19 justin_smith: serjeem___: one thing that helps is defining a schema for the input / output of the "exposed" functions

17:20 https://github.com/Prismatic/schema

17:20 serjeem___: oh yeah, absolutely

17:21 justin_smith: there is also autodoc http://tomfaulhaber.github.io/autodoc/

17:21 serjeem___: i'm more concerned with just the namespace layout of the package

17:21 justin_smith: and codox https://github.com/weavejester/codox

17:22 serjeem___: those look great!

17:22 thanks :)

17:25 allenj12: can someone tell me why this is happening

17:25 https://www.refheap.com/89817

17:26 tac_: is # length?

17:26 ,#'(1 2 3)

17:26 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

17:26 justin_smith: allenj12: split with returns all items for which the pred is true, followed by all items afterward

17:26 tac_: guess not

17:27 justin_smith: allenj12: maybe you want < as your condition

17:27 allenj12: justin_smith: it should have a non empty list either way

17:27 justin_smith: tac #() is a shortcut to create an anonymous function

17:27 allenj12: absolutely not - the first item returns false, so the first list is empty

17:27 aperiodic: tac_: it's the reader's macro dispatch character: http://clojure.org/reader (see the bullect labeled "Dispatch (#)")

17:27 allenj12: justin_smith: oooo

17:28 justin_smith: is there a a function that does [(truthy) (falsey)]

17:28 justin_smith: complement inverts the truth value of a predicate

17:28 ,(filter (complement even?) (range))

17:28 clojurebot: (1 3 5 7 9 ...)

17:29 hiredman: allenj12: group-by

17:29 justin_smith: ahh, yeah, that's probably what he's looking for

17:29 allenj12: perfect! thanks guys, gonna go eat now

17:31 hfaafb: partition-by is probably closer

17:31 v0v

17:31 hiredman: it depends

17:31 hfaafb: ah nevermind thats contiguous

17:32 hiredman: yeah

17:36 SagiCZ1: can anyone remind me how the deep map destructuring works?

17:36 (let [<insert_magic> {:a {:x "deep"} :b 0}] ..) ==> "deep"

17:38 justin_smith: ,(let [{{x :x} :a} {:a {:x "deep"} :b 0}] x)

17:38 clojurebot: "deep"

17:38 SagiCZ1: thank you

17:38 (inc justin_smith)

17:38 lazybot: ⇒ 72

17:38 justin_smith: note how symmetrical the destructuring and the map are

17:40 SagiCZ1: yep.. nice

17:40 thats how i can remember it

17:41 jozi9: hi

17:42 danneu: Where is the ring middleware that's responsible for parsing :request-method from <input type="hidden" name="_method" value="PUT">?

17:43 my only middleware is compojure.handler/site so i'm surprised it parses it at all

17:43 hiredman: the name on that is _method, why would it end up as the value in a map for :request-method?

17:43 :request-method in the top level ring map is the http verb for the request

17:44 site adds in a bunch of other middleware that parses and keywordizes stuff

17:44 danneu: hiredman: yeah, i'm trying to figure out which one does it http://weavejester.github.io/compojure/compojure.handler.html#var-site

17:45 justin_smith: danneu: your request should have a :request-method key, this is part of ring rather than the middleware I think

17:45 hiredman: danneu: what makes you think any part does?

17:45 justin_smith: danneu: since the server has to handle a request differently based on method

17:45 hiredman: danneu: https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/master/SPEC#L62-L65

17:46 justin_smith: danneu: ie. for a GET, my server has the key / val :request-method / :get in the request map

17:46 hiredman: danneu: to begin with turning a field with a name _method in to a map value under :request-method is pretty nonsensical

17:46 danneu: sure, but <form method="put"> isn't going to send a put request

17:47 justin_smith: hiredman: but some frameworks make a pseudo-method that way

17:48 hiredman: danneu: so you are looking for a middleware that emulates put requests for forms?

17:49 danneu: pretty much all frameworks have that middleware

17:50 hiredman: so are you looking for that middleware to use it, or are you seeing that behaviour and trying to figure out where it comes from?

17:50 danneu: hiredman: the issue is that is <input name="_method" value="put"> seems to work out of the box, so i'm trying to find the source to see what it expects the override header to be sinc x-method-override doesn't seem to work

17:50 in other words, im trying to send an ajax PUT

17:52 gfredericks: seancorfield: does a new query option (:timeout) for calling .setQueryTimeout on a prepared statement sound like a reasonable addition?

17:52 hiredman: so you are trying to send an ajax put?

17:52 seancorfield: gfredericks: sounds a bit edge case-y...

17:53 danneu: hiredman: yeah. here's an example of how you'd implement the middleware (https://github.com/myfreeweb/ringfinger/blob/master/corefinger/src/main/clojure/corefinger/middleware.clj#L47-L53) - i'm just trying to see if ring has it

17:53 seancorfield: why not construct the PreparedStatement yourself (and set such options) and pass that into query or execute!

17:53 Do people really set query timeouts as a matter of course??

17:53 lazybot: seancorfield: Definitely not.

17:54 hiredman: danneu: so you don't really care about the form field at all, you care about this x-method-override header?

17:54 amalloy: good guess as always, lazybot

17:54 danneu: hiredman: yeah, but the logical start of my journey would be to track down where the middleware that handles the form field is defined

17:54 and i can't even find that so far

17:55 hiredman: danneu: but you don't really care about x-method-override right? you just want to send a PUT request via ajax?

17:56 danneu: hiredman: yeah. $.ajax supports GET or POST so for every other framework ive used, the ajax analogue of name=_method'

17:57 is that x-method-override header

17:58 hiredman: danneu: I am pretty sure jquery's ajax stuff lets you do puts

17:58 gfredericks: seancorfield: I have no idea how common it is; I think there's a lot of duplicate logic involved in creating the prepared statement yourself

17:58 danneu: hiredman: "Note: Other HTTP request methods, such as PUT and DELETE, can also be used here, but they are not supported by all browsers.

17:58 http://api.jquery.com/jquery.ajax/

17:59 gfredericks: seancorfield: what about a generic mechanism for supplying a function to bash on the prepared statement prior to executing the query?

18:01 danneu: hiredman: https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/blob/e6681da00d6c65231a35130a1dcc4a8c7a1bae7e/src/compojure/core.clj#L14-L22 Oh, so compojure itself does it and it only supports _method in :form-params

18:01 seems like ring-core needs a wrap-method-override middleware

18:02 amalloy: gfredericks: that sorta exists, right? you can call prepare-statement yourself, modify it, and then pass it to query or whatever

18:02 gfredericks: amalloy: I might be missing something, let me check

18:03 amalloy: you don't have to do a *ton* of repeated work like preparing the whole thing with raw jdbc; a lot of the stuff in prepare-statement is still useful to you

18:05 gfredericks: there's some logic around where the connection comes from and whether the connection gets closed in the case of non-transactional use

18:05 and passing a prepared statement directly to query bypasses that logic

18:06 amalloy: reiddraper: is there a way to lazily sample a generator, rather than providing a number up front? alternatively, is there a reason that would be a bad idea?

18:06 hiredman: the connection handling stuff for the non-deprecated bits of jdbc seem to be terrible

18:07 gfredericks: this stuff here: https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/java/jdbc.clj#L788-796

18:07 amalloy: shouldn't be a bad idea

18:08 amalloy: it's already lazy it looks like

18:08 so (gen/sample g Long/MAX_VALUE) if you want :)

18:10 amalloy: I think it was intended just for repl usage, so an infinite lazy seq isn't an obvious feature

18:10 amalloy: gfredericks: sure, infinite+lazy is not a good default

18:10 hiredman: I had this app where I created one derby connection at start up, and everything just used that, and I would randomly get errors because I was using query results or whatever after some resource had been cleaned up, and I was using the new api

18:11 so there was no with-connection or anything to for the seq in side of, and of course the connection was never closed, so who the hell knows what was going on

18:12 I ended up just switching to creating a new connection every operation, because the app is just recording my music listening habits

18:12 but, the lesson is clear, use the deprecated java.jdbc interface

18:12 the new stuff is terrible

18:12 gfredericks: you can get away with crazy stuff in personal projects; I have an atom that pretty-prints ~1mb to a file every time somebody swaps it

18:13 hiredman: the new api has something similar to with-connection; it just expects that you're passing it around explicitly

18:13 seancorfield: gfredericks: so if prepare-statement accepted :timeout you'd be set - you could do (query {:timeout ...} sql params) and it would pass through and work the way you wanted

18:13 gfredericks: seancorfield: right

18:14 oh wait

18:14 no

18:14 seancorfield: ok, i thought you were asking for changes to query :)

18:14 gfredericks: I mean

18:14 yes

18:14 seancorfield: if the first arg to query is a map, it is passed as named args to prepare-statement internally

18:14 gfredericks: it is in prepare-statement that the change would go

18:14 seancorfield: so it's prepare-statement that needs to support :timeout, not query

18:14 ok

18:14 hiredman: gfredericks: I was!

18:15 gfredericks: hiredman: you think the API is a bad idea or the impl is bugg?

18:15 buggy*

18:15 hiredman: gfredericks: dunno

18:15 seancorfield: well (query db-spec options sql params) i think

18:15 gfredericks: hiredman: okay I'll assume your "lesson is clear" comment was casual then

18:16 seancorfield: yeah I was assuming there was some way to add options like that

18:16 seancorfield: it would probably be a good idea for execute! to support an initial map of options argument and treat it the same way

18:16 hiredman: gfredericks: the whole thing needs to scrapped and rewritten to return things that implement CollReduce instead of seqs anyway

18:16 gfredericks: buggy or a bad api, either way, better not to use it

18:18 reiddraper: amalloy: gen/sample-seq

18:18 gfredericks: I've been using it in production for a while without serious issues

18:19 seancorfield: tell you what gfredericks, create a ticket as a placeholder for expanding options to prepare-statement - I can add :timeout specifically and some keyword arg that takes a function to manipulate the PreparedStatement if you want, and I'll also work on expanding execute! to accept a map of options and pass it through

18:19 hiredman: I saw your ticket about supporting reducers / transducers... good idea...

18:20 reiddraper: amalloy: sample is just built with (take n (sample-seq foo))

18:21 gfredericks: seancorfield: personally I don't need both :timeout and the manipulation function, just either one

18:21 seancorfield: as for whether the API is "terrible" or buggy, it's used successfully in production code by a lot of people and a variety of databases

18:22 patches are welcome for improvements at any time

18:23 gfredericks: hiredman: I got JDBC-100

18:23 (inc seancorfield) ;; for java.jdbc

18:23 lazybot: ⇒ 14

18:25 seancorfield: thanx gfredericks

18:26 hiredman: seancorfield: sure, and I understand as a maintainer it is frustrating when someone says things don't work without pinpointing what it is because you are completely willing to fix things

18:26 seancorfield: :) I counted to ten and didn't get angry

18:27 but, yeah, the idea of creating something more fluent leveraging transducers etc sounds appealing

18:28 the new API came about because the community wanted it (and so did Clojure/core) and I have to say I'm finding it much easier to work with than the old one... but JDBC is a fussy beast and finding a really clean way to work with it is always a struggle

18:28 hiredman: maybe I will switch back to a single connection and see if I can track this down

18:29 seancorfield: I'm curious, hiredman, how do you feel about SQL DSLs in general? (since that seems like a more composable way to go with reducers/transducers but adding a DSL to java.jdbc was rejected by the community and Clojure/core)

18:29 hiredman: and of course it may also be a quirk of Derby that doesn't show up in MySQL etc (which, heaven knows, has plenty of its own quirks)

18:30 fwiw, at world singles, we create a pooled datasource (using c3p0) and pass that to every query / execute! / etc and let it do the with-open thing and it seems rock solid

18:31 cflemin__: Hi all, does lazybot occasionally forget to archive this channel?

18:31 hiredman: seancorfield: well, I am not wild about them when I come across them in projects, but I have dabbled a little myself in creating them

18:32 cfleming: Yesterday's archives are only there till 17:54

18:32 dbasch: cfleming: it probably crashed

18:32 hiredman: seancorfield: I think returning something that implements CollReduce would be orthogonal to how you write the sql

18:32 cfleming: dbasch: arg

18:33 Ok, thanks

18:33 seancorfield: hmm, maybe I'll spend some time experimenting with it over the weekend (wife's away so I'll be bored), although I have some documentation to finish for another OSS project I maintain which is higher priority

18:33 hiredman: we use c3p0 at work too

18:33 seancorfield: hiredman: will you be at Strange Loop?

18:33 hiredman: no

18:33 :/

18:34 seancorfield: bummer. I was going to suggest we got together for an hour to brainstorm some CollReduce ideas for the API. If you have any suggestions, feel free to add to JDBC-99

18:35 hiredman: sure

19:00 turbofail: you know what'd be really nice? if ranges had a coll-reduce implementation that didn't require materializing a sequence

19:05 hiredman: there is a jira issue for that

19:05 (and several patches?)

19:06 amalloy: yes, i wrote it

19:06 rich didn't like any of the versions

19:07 my conclusion is that trying to make reducers also act like lazy sequences is just doomed to fail: you want either a reducer or a seq, and you can't have both

19:11 turbofail: yeah i can see the issues with that

19:11 still it'd be nice to just be able to reduce over a large range of numbers relatively quickly

19:17 though on further inspection, my experimental RangeColl implementing CollReduce really isn't that much faster

19:22 amalloy: turbofail: ranges are already chunked, so it's not too slow

19:23 where you actually get some noticeable improvement is if you implement CollFold as well

19:24 turbofail: ah

19:38 hiredman: I imagine it also makes a difference if you have a more complex transformation to get rid of intermediate seqs

19:38 instead of just jumping right to reduce with + (which I assume is how everyone benchmarks these things)

19:57 danielcompton: cfleming: do you have any update on Cursive in IntelliJ 14? Colin T said there's been quite a few API breakages

19:58 talios: lotso-changes, an IJ-14 build would be lovely tho

19:58 cfleming: danielcompton: I'm afraid that's pretty much the state of the update. I know a lot of people want this but maintaining a new branch against an unstable API is a lot of work for me.

19:59 danielcompton: cfleming: has the IntelliJ 14 API not stabilised yet?

19:59 cfleming: I'm already maintaining 3 (12, 13, 13.1)

19:59 danielcompton: ouch

19:59 cfleming: danielcompton: not sure, I haven't looked at it. The issue is that for every release I have to merge all the changes to all the branches and adapt the code. So even if it's relatively stable now it's still more work.

20:00 danielcompton: I figure the longer I can put it off the more stable it will be :-)

20:00 danielcompton: cfleming: right, are there many people using 12 or 13.1?

20:00 I mean 12 and 13

20:01 cfleming: danielcompton: yeah, there are.

20:02 danielcompton: darn

20:03 cfleming: Current stats from the latest version: V12: 507 V13: 775 V13.1: 3434

20:04 danielcompton: so mostly v13.1, but significant users of earlier versions.

20:05 danielcompton: Interesting... making compatibility decisions is never fun

20:05 Although deleting the code afterwards can be

20:06 cfleming: danielcompton: no, it's not. I'd like to maintain support for older versions since in a lot of corporate settings upgrading is non-trivial (machines are built out automatically using vagrant or the like, and so on)

20:07 danielcompton: I asked on the mailing list a while ago why people hadn't upgraded from 13 to 13.1, and many people just can't

20:07 danielcompton: cfleming: right. I don't have much experience with that kind of environment, but it makes sense you'd want to support

20:07 them

20:07 cfleming: danielcompton: eventually I can probably maintain older versions of Cursive against older versions of IntelliJ, but right now there's only one version so it's merging for me.

20:07 talios: cfleming - did any say WHY they can't go to 13.1? that wasn't that major a change...

20:09 cfleming - is the project structures as a cursive-core with each intellij version bridging into core, or just a monolithic project? ( I suppose the IntelliJ AST is quite deeply woven tho.. 0

20:09 cfleming: talios: Yeah, partly it was just that a lot of people hadn't gotten around to it, but at least one large client builds all their dev workstations using Vagrant, so devs can't pick their own versions. It's already a pain for them that they have to upgrade Cursive every month or so.

20:10 danielcompton: cfleming: that's why you have an enterprise version

20:10 cfleming: talios: It's a monolithic project. It's too hard to break out since the API changes are often not at the top (extension) layer but deep in the details. Or both.

20:11 danielcompton: Hehe, right - I'm tempted!

20:13 Shayanjm: ping arrdem

20:13 TimMc: cfleming: Bless you for maintaining compatibility with multiple version.

20:15 especially with apps, which are hella harder to do that with because you have to keep switching context...

20:15 cfleming: TimMc: Thanks! It's definitely a reasonable amount of work.

20:20 TimMc: Users of older versions tend to suffer more bugs since I can't test as extensively on them, I have to rely more on crowdtesting :-)

20:26 Bronsa: s

20:44 danielcompton: What's the recommended way of preventing sensitive information from a record being printed? When I went to add multimethods for print dup and the other one whose name I forget, I found it quite difficult

20:45 There were quite a few private vars and functions I needed to get at to copy the standard impl for a record

20:46 hiredman: danielcompton: if someone can call println on your record, why wouldn't they be able to call (println (seq yourrecord)) ?

20:47 danielcompton: hiredman: I'm trying to prevent a Java Keystore password from showing up in stack traces when the record is dumped

20:47 hiredman: danielcompton: ah

20:47 danielcompton: We're using component and if any of the components fail to start then it prints the component map

20:48 TimMc: yikes

20:48 danielcompton: Great for debugging, not so great for operational security

20:48 hiredman: *shrug* dunno, I've never had that set of circumstances

20:48 you could use a deftype instead of defrecord

20:48 danielcompton: hiredman: do they work with component?

20:48 hiredman: sure

20:49 danielcompton: we ended up storing the file path to the password on disk. It's only used once on startup so we just slurp it

20:49 hiredman: component uses a protocol which a deftype can implement (and the protocol is actually just the default, you can swap it out for multimethods, etc)

20:49 TimMc: danielcompton: I would make a feature request on component (perhaps with patch) to have whitelisting of things to print (or other customizations.

20:51 danielcompton: TimMc: it doesn't really seem like a component level problem to me? Could a component alter the print stack trace behaviour? The record could be printed in other contexts too.

21:01 TimMc: danielcompton: Including program state in the stack trace sure sounded component-specific.

21:02 In general there really isn't a way of systematically ensuring that bits of information don't get printed unless you use a pretty cool type system or something.

21:06 * danielcompton TimMc:

21:06 danielcompton: TimMc: You can override the print multimethods, except that a lot of the useful things you need are private

21:59 fairuz: Hi guys. I use nginx-clojure as the web server for my clojure web apps. Do I need to generate jar for my web app and put it inside nginx each time I modify something? Or is there anything I can do to just point the source of my web app to nginx-clojure? Thanks

22:15 justin_smith: fairuz: I don't think many people here use the nginx-clojure plugin to run clojure webapps

22:16 hiredman: it looks insane

22:16 loading the jvm as a shared library in to nginx

22:18 fairuz: justin_smith: hiredman: oh ok. What's the web server people usually use? I;m just starting clojure, so trying to catch up on the components needed.

22:18 justin_smith: fairuz: http-kit standalone, deploy as an uberjar, run with java -jar, then put an nginx reverse proxy in front

22:18 that's my best bet, at least

22:18 hiredman: it really depends, I use jetty with various webservers (including nginx) as a reverse proxy in front of it

22:20 fairuz: oh ok

22:20 I will try out http-kit then

22:21 seanaway: Just in case there are Reagent users here who aren't in #clojurescript - is there a mailing list (or IRC channel) for Reagent?

22:22 hiredman: fairuz: I wouldn't bother

22:23 fairuz: hiredman: with http-kit?

22:24 hiredman: fairuz: yeah, jetty is very standard, ring comes with a nice jetty adapter, etc

22:24 seanaway: does jetty support web sockets these days?

22:25 fairuz: hiredman: I saw lein comes with Ring jetty adapter. This is enough I suppose?

22:25 hiredman: fairuz: lein doesn't come with anything

22:25 fairuz: lein is a build tool

22:26 fairuz: ring is a specification of a way to model web requests in clojure, it does have a jetty adapter

22:26 justin_smith: fairuz: you may think of the jetty adaptor that comes with lein-ring

22:26 fairuz: but one can use ring without the lein-ring plugin

22:28 fairuz: justin_smith: hiredman: I'm confused now. So it's either I use lein to start a ring server for me. Or I can just ditch lein and put ring as a dependencies for my project, and just start my app from there?

22:28 justin_smith: fairuz: lein-ring is a plugin that you can use. Ring is a library that runs a web server, that can be run with or without lein-ring

22:29 for the former, it uses a jetty adaptor if none is provided by you

22:29 for ring without lein ring, I think you'll need to provide some server that ring can use

22:30 at runtime, you can either create an app container and deploy an uberwar, or create a standalone (using a built-in container like jetty, or a standalone server like http-kit)

22:31 hiredman: fairuz: there is a lein plugin that will run a ring app using jetty, but it is strictly a developement thing and you should not use that to run your actual app

22:31 fairuz: ah ok

22:32 hiredman: you can package you app as a war file using the same lein plugin which you can deploy to any servlet container (most java webservers)

22:32 fairuz: hiredman: noted

22:32 hiredman: you can also add jetty as a depdency then run launch it yourself from within your app

22:33 or use jetty-runner to run the war file as a standalone kind of thing

22:33 fairuz: But the easiest will be using lein uberjars and just start the standalone jar? (I suppose there's a built-in jetty in there)

22:33 justin_smith: fairuz: there can be, if you set it up right

22:33 ddellacosta: hello #clojure

22:34 I seek your assistance with getting checkouts working

22:35 justin_smith: fairuz: but part of why I like http-kit (aside from the websockets and performance) is that instead of launching a container, that then wraps your app, you create the server process as a part of your app

22:35 ddellacosta: which is to say, I have no idea why it is not working for me. I've got a checkouts dir, installed the lib first, symlinked in the checkouts dir, the versions in project.clj in main project match, etc.

22:35 but no dice.

22:35 justin_smith: ddellacosta: any reason to use a checkout instead of the much simpler "lein install" of the work in progress?

22:35 hiredman: easiest is hard to quantify, I like jetty-runner and a war file, that is my well traveled rut

22:36 ddellacosta: justin_smith: that's all I've been doing, and I'm tired of it; I'm running lein install every ten minutes, restarting repl, restarting web app...etc. etc.

22:36 justin_smith: I'd love to see my changes get picked up right away.

22:36 justin_smith: ddellacosta: OK, good luck

22:36 ddellacosta: justin_smith: I take it you haven't had much luck getting checkouts working either. :-(

22:37 justin_smith: yeah, I gave up pretty early, because I found lein install reliable

22:37 ddellacosta: yeah, it is that, I'll concede

22:37 just time-consuming. *sigh*

22:37 justin_smith: ddellacosta: maybe someone else here can tell you exactly how to make checkouts work reliably though :)

22:38 ddellacosta: c'mon, that was a straightforward hint people ^

22:38 * ddellacosta looks around desparately

22:39 justin_smith: perhaps I need to make some sort of unjustified and overstated false claim about how checkouts work, so that the person who knows how to use them will righteously contradicts me

22:39 ddellacosta: justin_smith: that give me a chuckle. :-)

22:40 "actually, checkouts are completely broken unless your dependent projects are all AOT compiled, everyone knows that"

22:40 justin_smith: without the quotation marks, that may have even worked

22:40 ddellacosta: heh

22:43 justin_smith: ddellacosta: I assume you are using require :reload after updating the checked out namespace definitions?

22:43 ddellacosta: yeah. :-/

22:44 dgaffney: Hey everyone! Here's hopefully a question that can get answered easily - what's the simplest way to convert a java.util.Date. to a string that looks like "2014-09-04"?

22:44 justin_smith: and lein classpath is showing the checkout dirs, and not some jars?

22:44 ddellacosta: justin_smith: yeah, good question, let me try that

22:45 dgaffney: well, it requires installing another lib, but clj-time provides simple ways to do that. https://github.com/clj-time/clj-time

22:45 justin_smith: ,(subs (pr-str (java.util.Date.)) 7 17) ; dgaffney here's a hack way to do it

22:45 clojurebot: "2014-09-05"

22:45 justin_smith: dgaffney: probably better to use a proper Formatter

22:46 fairuz: thanks justin_smith, hiredman for the inputs :)

22:46 dgaffney: justin_smith: Thanks - I know that there's a good way to do it, but I want something quick and dirty, as this is the only date as of this time, and shockingly, I don't think it's going to need a whole bunch of that type of stuff in the project.

22:47 After day one of clojure, it's a super awesome language that lends itself to clean writing, but then I'll turn a corner where I'm like "but but string interpolation" and just have to get used to this way. I like it though!

22:47 v. v. simple.

22:47 justin_smith: ,(pr-str (java.util.Date.)) ; dgaffney: just so we are clear on what that is doing

22:47 clojurebot: "#inst \"2014-09-05T02:46:48.354-00:00\""

22:47 dgaffney: mm

22:48 is string joining not just (join "cat" "dog")

22:48 ?

22:48 ddellacosta: &(str "cat" "dog")

22:48 lazybot: ⇒ "catdog"

22:49 ddellacosta: dgaffney: join will let you interpolate something

22:49 justin_smith: ,(clojure.string/join ", " ["cat" "dog" "fish" "ebola"])

22:49 clojurebot: "cat, dog, fish, ebola"

22:49 dgaffney: alright. And with *vars* in there do you wrap a let binding or just slam it in the list?

22:49 ddellacosta: &(clojure.string/join "-" ["cat" "dog"])

22:49 lazybot: ⇒ "cat-dog"

22:49 ddellacosta: jinx

22:49 dgaffney: hah!

22:49 justin_smith: dgaffney: there is format

22:50 ,(format "%dof%d" 7 9)

22:50 clojurebot: "7of9"

22:50 ddellacosta: ,(println "test")

22:50 clojurebot: eval service is offline

22:50 dgaffney: ahh nice

22:50 alright, I got the gist

22:50 now its off to write this thing that writes out GEXF files

22:51 this, but in clojure: https://gist.github.com/DGaffney/25d879da9982d8273113

22:51 weee.

22:57 justin_smith: ,(apply format "%1tY-%1td-%1tm" (repeat 3 (java.util.Date.))) ; dgaffney: one liner, no extra libs needed

22:57 clojurebot: "2014-05-09"

22:57 justin_smith: dgaffney: you can look up the javadoc for java.util.Formatter for more options

22:58 fairuz: justin_smith: Just got http-kit running. Looks good. Thanks

22:58 justin_smith: dgaffney: oh, I had day and month switched, but that should be trivial to sort out :)

22:58 fairuz: cool, yeah it's not too hard

22:59 fairuz: justin_smith: The only hard thing is to familiarize myself with clojure syntax itself

22:59 :)

22:59 justin_smith: eventually, you will miss it when forced to use Algol family languages

23:01 dgaffney: and please please please use the formatter option if the other option is using that subs hack above :)

23:43 munderwo: Im trying to start a clojurescript browser based repl following the instructions here https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/The-REPL-and-Evaluation-Environments

23:46 but I get a No such namespace: cljs.repl.browser at line 1 src/indifference/core.cljs

23:47 Licenser: munderwo I fought with the same goal last week :(

23:47 munderwo: anybody go any ideas what might have changed from when the instructions were written and now?

23:47 awsome! did you work it out?

23:48 Licenser: I gave up :P

23:48 munderwo: ahh bugger..

23:48 Licenser: took me two days to get something semy working by glueing together 6 different things then I apearently changed something and everything blew up again and I simply surrendered to my incompetence

23:49 munderwo: i’ve had it working before…. maybe I was using austin

23:49 hmm.. how have you gone using interop with node libs?

23:55 ddellacosta: argh, we really need better docs for CLJS

23:55 munderwo, Licenser: have you checked out Austin? https://github.com/cemerick/austin

23:56 munderwo: ah, I see you mentioned that. Yeah, use Austin.

23:56 Licenser: ddellacosta that I hand't

23:56 * Licenser will look a tthat

23:56 ddellacosta: Licenser: you're not incompetent, the getting-started docs really need some work.

23:56 Licenser: thanks ddellacosta

23:56 munderwo: yeah I think I got it working with Austin a little while ago.. now just gotta get it working at that.

23:56 Licenser: ddellacosta you only say taht because you don't know me :P

23:56 ddellacosta: Licenser: haha...well, let's just say, I know for sure that we need better docs for getting started in ClojureScript.

23:56 Licenser: :)

23:57 ddellacosta: Licenser, munderwo: also take a look at dnolen's posts for some good getting started stuff, if you haven't already: http://swannodette.github.io/ In particular, http://swannodette.github.io/2013/10/27/the-essence-of-clojurescript/

23:57 not repl related specifically

23:57 munderwo: ddellacosta: the clojurescript repl docs look really nice and clear. But the code is wrong in them AFAICT

23:57 those are good pointers thanks!

23:58 ddellacosta: munderwo: np

23:58 Licenser: ddellacosta the starting wasn't so hard but getting emacs + repl + the rest to work nicely was a nightmare

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