#clojure log - Jan 11 2014

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0:00 KeithPM: TEttinger: Hmmmm… Let me try that.

0:01 gtrak: KeithPM: shortcut is (if-let [s (seq my-seq] blah)... (seq ..) will return nil when it's empty, which is falsy

0:02 KeithPM: gtrak: OK thanks…. Will check it out

0:02 hansel-han: amalloy: what's a simple way to run a loop within the app that handles evictions every, say, 10 seconds?

0:03 amalloy: hansel-han: you don't really have to do the evictions every ten seconds. you can just do the evictions whenever you want to read or write the thing

0:03 that is, it doesn't have to be a separate asynchronous process

0:03 hansel-han: amalloy: haha, of course. yeah, thanks.

0:07 amalloy: KeithPM: what is permx supposed to do? compute permutations of a sequence or something?

0:08 KeithPM: amalloy: Yes, that's the plan :)

0:08 jonasen: andyf: ping

0:08 andyf: jonasen: pong

0:08 KeithPM: amalloy: I kinda described my algorithm in the gist.

0:09 jonasen: I can make the release if when you're ready

0:09 TEttinger: hm is there a way to (using a macro or something) fill out a for comprehension's bindings at run-time? or compile-time for a macro

0:09 jonasen: andyf: we should still change README.md to not mention Leiningen 1 installation

0:09 andyf: jonasen: cool. I think the known issues are pretty well described in the README.next.md, so as long as that gets moved to README.md when the release is done, it should be good enough to go.

0:10 Yes, that vestigial mention is still in README.next.md, with a question of whether we care about Leiningen 1 any more. I have not done any testing with Leiningen 1

0:10 TEttinger: the chas.

0:11 technomancy: andyf: putting :min-lein-version "2.3.0" will at least let people with old versions know why if things aren't working for them.

0:12 andyf: technomancy: thanks for the tip

0:13 jonasen: andyf: Also, should we bump the version number a bit higher. You and Bronsa has done more work than 0.0.2 -> 0.0.3

0:13 andyf: jonasen: Sure. Pick what sounds good to you. Do you want me to make any of these edits? Don't want to interfere with any changes you want to make.

0:14 amalloy: are you averse to solving it differently, KeithPM? https://gist.github.com/amalloy/8367369 is a much simpler way to do it

0:14 jonasen: andyf: you can make the changes if you want to. Ping me when its done and I cut a release.

0:14 andyf: ok

0:15 what version #? 0.1.0?

0:15 KeithPM: amalloy I solved it once before with a list comparehension, lemme check

0:15 jonasen: andyf: sure

0:15 amalloy: using a sorted-map of {int, x} instead of a vector of xs to support efficient removal-in-the-middle, and then a nested for instead of the rather involved map/concat/recursion thing

0:17 KeithPM: amalloy: Definitely takes some study :) Thanks

0:17 TEttinger: nice amalloy

0:17 that thing's a work of art

0:39 andyf: jonasen: I think it should be ready to go. README.next.md moved over, project.clj is updated. Version number is 0.1.0 in all of the places I think it needs updating.

0:40 'lein test' passes, and the crucible projects re-run are under way, and so far (about 10% through) look the same as my last run except for the version number update.

0:41 jonasen: andyf: I'll ping you when it's released

0:45 gcganley: are there any meetups around boston anytime soon?

0:45 jonasen: andyf: it's on Clojars now :)

0:46 andyf: jonasen: Awesome! I will try it out on a machine where I haven't been developing it, to ensure the install goes smoothly.

0:46 jonasen: andyf: will you [ANN] it on the mailing list?

0:46 andyf: You are welcome to. Either way is fine with me.

0:47 jonasen: andyf: since it's your work and you know what's new I think maybe you should announce it

0:47 andyf: Will do.

0:56 wei__: is there a good way to execute db functions in java.jdbc without bashing together strings?

0:57 noonian: you can use something like honeysql or kormasql

1:20 andrewchamb: hello

1:20 I have a question about core.logic

1:21 in a conde does the goal tests go top down>

1:21 ?

1:22 I want a certain goal to succeed first, then the others

1:22 so kind of priority

1:33 dnolen: andrewchamb: there is no order that can be guaranteed

1:36 andrewchamb: dnolen: oh ok, i was playing around trying to make a system which converts bytecode to assembly using core logic http://pastebin.com/rEcQJXQh

1:36 and i was trying to make it match more complicated patterns first

1:37 i guess i can just run the rules one after the other to get order

1:38 in that i was trying to make it convert a divide and a mod into a single divmod, but if that fails it just converts it into seperate divides and modulos

1:39 im really new to clojure

1:40 dnolen: andrewchamb: core.logic is not a good introduction to clojure :)

1:41 andrewchamb: haha yeah, but i started clojure cause core.logic is something python doesnt have :P

1:41 dnolen: andrewchamb: trying to do things dependent on order with core.logic will be very frustrating, as order is not a very declarative property

1:41 andrewchamb: thats not really dependent on order since that bytecode is in single static assignment form

1:42 memory access needs another field represesnting time though

1:43 dnolen: andrewchamb: I mean order of goals

1:43 andrewchamb: oh ok

1:43 yeah

1:43 i suppose i can enumerate matches then select the longest

1:43 though that might not be efficient

1:44 my problem is once i find a match, i must rewrite the things im matching against, so it doesnt make sense to find all the matches

1:45 My understanding of how minikanren worked was that it just goes top down trying to unify, i guess its probably more complicated than that

1:48 dnolen: does it try and prove the goals in (parallel/concurrently) and then returns them in the order it finds them?

1:53 thanks for the help btw, core.logic is pretty neat

2:07 seangrove: Ah, ff, cljs compiler, why you OoM me...

2:18 Getting to the point that we can't compile with :advanced compilation on pretty consistently

2:19 dnolen: Is there some jvm flags we can set to use 16G of memory or something to get past this?

2:20 Arafangion: seangrove: I'm confused.

2:21 seangrove: You previously mentioned cljs. Now you're asking about the jvm? Is it the compiler that is causing the problem, or the output?

2:21 (I suspect the compiler)

2:21 seangrove: Arafangion: the compiler

2:21 Arafangion: Cool. I actually have very little experience with clojure. (None, infact). However, you can indeed configure teh memory limit for the JVM.

2:22 But from memory, the JVM tends to like contigious memory, which gets problematic on 32-bit systems.

2:30 amalloy: what does contiguous memory have to do with a 32-bit system? or with the jvm?

2:32 Arafangion: amalloy: I dunno. Maybe they felt it simplified their memory model? I did notice that on Solaris at the time, the JVM was able to use all the memory space.

2:32 amalloy: But not on other systems.

2:33 amalloy: And 64-bit systems have a freaking rediculously large memory space, even with 41 or 47 bits available, so that's not a limitation anymore. (surely)

2:34 andyf: jonasen: [ANN] finally sent (got sidetracked with other things for a bit)

2:39 jonasen: andyf: Great! Hopefully people will find it useful. You've put a lot of effort into this release. And the fact that tools.analyzer(.jvm) has now been seriously battle tested is awesome!

2:39 andyf: jonasen: Thanks. I may slow down a bit on further enhancements for a while, but would like to make some more improvements to it in the future. Thanks for writing the original!

2:40 jonasen: improvements always welcome! :)

2:45 rurumate_: I have a tree (nested sequence) of symbols, now trying to replace all '<> with 'foo everywhere. I figure it's best to use clojure.zipper, but have never used it. Any hints how to do it?

2:46 jonasen: rurumate: maybe http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.walk-api.html#clojure.walk/postwalk-replace

2:47 amalloy: oh man, don't use zip for that. that won't work at all. use clojure.walk/postwalk, or writing your own recursive function isn't too hard

2:47 rurumate: jonasen: thanks

2:47 just curious, what would be a typical use for clojure.zipper then?

2:50 postwalk-replace works just fine

2:58 amalloy: clojure.zip is, i suppose, for when you care about the relationships between nearby nodes in a tree, or the relative positions of two nodes

2:58 in practice i've never had a real use for it

3:27 bitemyapp: http://i.imgur.com/QXqJJju.jpg

3:46 andrew______: anyone in here at the moment?

3:46 rurumate: I am

3:48 andrew______: i'm just curious if anyone can explain why some functions would accept other expressions vs function literals with zero arguments, such as working with (future). it seems any function literal, with zero arguments, is the same as an actual expression, no?

3:48 why differentiate between them?

3:50 alexyakushev: andrew______: It's not clear to me what you are talking about, can you show an example?

3:51 amalloy: andrew______: it's just more convenient to not have to write the (fn [] ...), and it avoids cluttering your code with uninteresting artifacts

3:51 the only downside is that future has to be a macro instead of a function then, but iirc there's ##(doc future-call) if you need the function version

3:51 lazybot: java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! future-call is bad!

3:51 andrew______: consider the difference between pcalls and pvalues. they are the same, but one takes expressions, the other #() functions with zero arguments. Seems unnecessary, since any function literal with zero arguments can be written even easier as a simple expression

3:52 #(+ 5 6) rather than just (+5 2)

3:53 amalloy: wait, are you asking why the version taking a function literal exists?/ because it's nice to have available functions that work with values rather than (in addition to) macros that work with expressions

3:53 andrew______: but if the function is not allowed to accept any arguments, then how is this different than an actual expression?

3:54 amalloy: it's different because a function is a value that exists at runtime, and an expression is a thing that only exists in the mind of the programmer and the compiler

3:57 you can write a function that calls some other function twice: (defn twice [f] [(f) (f)])

3:58 how do you make that take an expression instead of a function? it has to be a macro, and then you can't, say, map it over a list of functions

3:58 andrew______: in the case of pcalls vs pvalues, it just seems odd to me that the programmer would prefer to add the # to the expression and make it a function when otherwise it is the same thing you are doing

3:59 pcalls will only accept functions with ZERO arguments, so your (twice) wouldn't be available; so what is the point of passing a no-argument function rather than just an expression?

3:59 amalloy: (defmacro twice* [expr] `[~expr ~expr]) is a pretty poor translation for several reaspons, but ignoring those, you can (map twice f g h), which you can't do for twice*

3:59 er, (map twice [f g h])

4:02 andrew______: amalloy: your point makes sense when talking about functions with arguments, but what is the difference between passing a no-argument function and passing an expression, as is the difference between pcalls and pvalues functions?

4:04 perhaps if you had a stored function with no arguments, but the function referred to outside state, like an atom? then it would make sense to pass a no-argument function, of course this would not be a pure function if it used outside state. is that the purpose of pcalls, what it expects?

4:05 amalloy: you're missing the analogy. in my example, twice* is like pvalues, and twice is like pcalls. those take an expression and a function, respectively. twice* is nicer to work with sometimes, but isn't compatible with map. in the same way, pvalues is not a function that you can pass to any other function, whereas pcalls is

4:06 another example: i can write a function (defn decorate-with-logging [f] (fn [x] (...magic using f...))), and i can call that function on the *value* pcalls, but i can't call it on pvalues

4:06 (decorate-with-logging pvalues) => "compiler exception what is this i don't understand, pvalues isn't a value"

4:07 (decorate-with-loggin pcalls) => "sure thing bro, here's your new decorated function"

4:07 andrew______: both pcalls and pvalues return a lazy sequence.

4:09 you seem to be talking more about the implementation of pcalls vs pvalues, but to the programmer, why would you choose one over the other? writing #(+ 6 4) is no different than the expression (+ 6 4)

4:09 amalloy: i haven't called pvalues at all, or pcalls, in any of my examples

4:09 i don't care what their return value is; i'm talking about what their values, the functions themselves, are

4:09 andrew______: you said your twice function was like pcalls, and you were pointing out how twice implements differently than twice*, but I'm talking about the programmer using pcalls or pvalues

4:10 (pcalls #(+ 4 5) #(* 5 7)) vs (pvalues (+ 4 5) (* 5 7))

4:10 I just don't see why the pcalls version is necessary

4:11 amalloy: nobody would ever write that call to pcalls in that scenario

4:11 it's there for when your f or g are already functions, or when you need to use pcalls itself as a function for whatever reason

4:11 andrew______: ah so maybe the book I'm reading (Practical Clojure) is just using a poor example

4:12 if your f and g are already functions, then since pcalls requires that the functions accept zero arguments, then what would these functions be doing that would make them necessary to stand alone as functions? would they typically be referring to outside state?

4:13 if I write a pure function with zero arguments, it would be meaningless I would think, since it's really just a single value return, like an expression

4:14 amalloy: pure functions of zero arguments are perfectly sensible. for example, it's a way to say "here's some computation i might need you to perform in the future, but don't do it yet because it's expensive"

4:15 andrew______: that makes sense. ok, i'm just trying to understand the point of it all. i guess one could generate no-argument functions at runtime via a macro, and pass those to pcalls for parallel processing, that would make sense, perhaps.

4:16 or if those function were not pure and did something with outside state, that would make sense too for pcalls

4:16 amalloy: andrew______: that's what the ##(doc delay) macro is, really, a pretty wrapper around a no-argument function

4:16 lazybot: ⇒ "Macro ([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a Delay object that will invoke the body only the first time it is forced (with force or deref/@), and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent force calls. See also - realized?"

4:17 andrew______: i see.

4:18 well, it makes me think, that's for sure

4:22 i think the book i'm reading is outdated. i shows metadata maps as being prefixed by #^ but I think now it is just the ^ right?

4:24 ro_st: anyone using cljx here?

4:24 amalloy: copyright four years ago, andrew______. so, yes, miles out of date, but that doesn't really have anything to do with pcalls/pvalues

4:25 andrew______: i know, different topic.

4:26 amalloy: all the p* functions are just marketing anyway. "look how easy it is to make your whole program magically parallel!". but in practice you have to work harder to make things usefully concurrent

4:26 but yes. ^ is preferred over #^ in all cases, since...1.1? maybe 1.2

4:40 andrew______: the one issue I would think it quite necessary often is to know when a task ends that you sent to another thread. i know there are Watches for, is it agents? but what about all the other thread tools?

5:27 ro_st: i'm using cljx and prismatic's Schema. requiring Schema in my cljx for some reason doesn't put the schema source in out (with :optimizations :none). however, if i manually make a cljs file and require Schema, then it works. which is odd, because cljsbuild is just reading the cljs produced by cljx

5:28 prismatic schema is itself a cljx project

5:29 dnolen: any ideas? or should i check with cemerick?

5:31 gah. timezones :-|

5:45 AeroNotix: can I add methods to a java type using extend-type (or anything else)?

5:46 It looks like extend-type is to extend a type to implement protocols

5:46 But I just want to add methods, I suppose I could wrap a java class with my own type, but it seems a bit meh

5:47 hmm, proxy/

5:47 ?

5:53 and can I have private methods on def{record,type} ?

6:13 bitemyapp: AeroNotix: ick. So much java stuff.

6:14 AeroNotix: are you integrating with some Java necessity foisted upon you?

6:14 pyrtsa: What would "private" even mean for a Clojure record where all fields are "public" and "final" in the Java terminology? :)

6:14 bitemyapp: yeah the private part is pretty baffling.

6:16 AeroNotix: bitemyapp: exactly, yeah. I need to use an SDK from authorize.net

6:17 bitemyapp: which otherwise I'd have to write SOAP bindings to their API. Which is woefully undocumented.

6:17 pyrtsa: if I deftype something, I wanted to have a field which is not accessible.

6:18 with def{record,type} they *need* to implement a protocol/interface?

6:19 bitemyapp: this is what I have so far: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/17904c5daef83d1cbe05

6:20 feels like I'm hacking a type there with the Reporter interface

6:20 protocol*

6:21 This is my first non-toy clojure code.

6:22 mercwithamouth: how would one go about listening out for for links clicked with enfocus. say if i want to chain selectors.. #thisid.link with 'blah' title? https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8369691

6:26 ggherdov: Hi. What's the canonical answer to the question "what book should I pick to get started in clojure" ?

6:26 mercwithamouth: Programming Clojure(oreilly)

6:26 ggherdov: mercwithamouth: thanks

6:26 mercwithamouth: To be honest i'm enjoying reading that one and clojure in action together.

6:26 I find it's better to pic a given subject then flip through several books....

6:28 ggherdov: mercwithamouth: I see

6:29 mercwithamouth: pick*

6:29 ggherdov: mercwithamouth: any tought to "the joy of clojure" by that guy with a dragon face on twitter ?

6:29 fogus

6:30 preface by steve yegge sounds cool

6:30 anyways

6:33 wei__: is there a good way to execute a .sql file with java.jdbc?

6:33 mercwithamouth: i bought it...i glance at it from time to time but i'm sill new to clojure as well.

6:34 it can't hurt.

6:36 any enfocus gurus?

6:40 ahh i see now

7:24 bitemyapp: ggherdov: joy of clojure is cool, don't listen to anything yegge says.

7:25 ggherdov: JoC is good for people that have some degree of familiarity with either Lisp or FP.

7:29 ggherdov: bitemyapp: thanks. It's kinda my case, did some Ocaml in a past life

7:34 ddima_: bitemyapp: why so harsh regarding yegge? ;)

7:38 Glenjamin: i found it a tad dry and difficult to get into

7:38 but i think i was looking for something a bit more "do this, do that"

7:46 daGrevis: hi

7:46 looks okay? https://github.com/daGrevis/Project-Euler-in-Clojure/blob/master/004.clj

7:49 bitemyapp: ggherdov: close enough.

7:49 Glenjamin: do this, do that is clojurebook.com

7:50 ddima_: doesn't think, not much indication he's learned much in the last (counts in head) 9 years or so I've followed his writing.

7:52 andrew_____: no doubt

7:54 favorite programming bloggers?

7:55 bitemyapp: my favorite programmers don't blog. They have better uses for their time.

7:55 I usually end up trying to extract information out of them on the occasion I catch them on twitter/reddit/IRC/stack overflow/haskell wiki

7:56 or, at the very least, I don't know any of them for what blog they might or might not have.

7:57 andrew_____: well there certainly are some good ones out there blogging, but none who deal with my new interests in FP and Clojure

7:57 at least none that i've found

7:57 for example there are some amazing bloggers in the iOS world, objective-C stuff

7:59 bitemyapp: andrew_____: the best resources I've found for Haskell and FP have mostly involved the wiki, Stack Overflow, white papers, books...code.

8:01 andrew_____: i'm thinking about getting this book on FP: http://tinyurl.com/oy6fdwp

8:03 bitemyapp: andrew_____: do you know ML or Haskell?

8:03 andrew_____: no, but i'd learn some ML quick with that book (there is actually very little Haskell in that book)

8:03 daGrevis: I have a coll. how can I check that all items in it are true?

8:03 bitemyapp: andrew_____: the original was only ML. IIRC, the author switches it up to flip between with strict-by-default and lazy-by-default.

8:03 andrew_____: daGrevis map a simple if over the collection

8:04 bitemyapp: andrew_____: no.

8:04 ,(every? identity [true false true])

8:04 clojurebot: false

8:04 bitemyapp: ,(every? identity [true true true])

8:04 clojurebot: true

8:04 daGrevis: andrew_____, i'm using map already ;)

8:04 andrew_____: could do that too, of course

8:04 bitemyapp: daGrevis: what I just demonstrated is the idiom to use in Clojure.

8:04 daGrevis: bitemyapp, thanks )

8:04 bitemyapp: you can't actually do it with a map.

8:04 it's a fold.

8:04 andrew_____: oh yes, you are right

8:04 could reduce it, then?

8:05 bitemyapp: but why would you?

8:05 daGrevis: is fold a func?

8:05 andrew_____: for fun, of course!

8:05 bitemyapp: andrew_____: I don't think it's the right time for that okasaki book.

8:05 daGrevis: fold is a catamorphism. reduce is a function. In Haskell, foldl, foldl', and foldr are functions.

8:05 daGrevis: reduce is foldl, ie, left.

8:06 daGrevis: Clojure's reduce is augmented with a weird hack to make it a short-circuiting left fold.

8:06 daGrevis: bitemyapp, i see

8:09 andrew_____: well, it's been fun, fellas

8:09 i'm going to read some more now

8:09 i'll save okasaki for next week

8:12 ddima_: bitemyapp: ahk, thanks. haven't followed him too closely, but he gets mentioned a lot ;)

8:18 daGrevis: hey how could I say (range 1 infinity)?

8:19 hyPiRion: (iterate inc 1)

8:19 or (rest (range))

8:19 daGrevis: hyPiRion, thanks

8:24 hyPiRion: np

8:35 daGrevis: how can I say (take-while fn-with-args coll)

8:35 TimMc: daGrevis: (range 1 Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY)

8:35 (another approach)

8:36 daGrevis: TimMc, cool ;)

8:36 TimMc: But bear in mind that if you really expect to hit some truly large numbers, range will not give you an infinite seq.

8:36 daGrevis: I guess I can use anon-fn

8:36 hyPiRion: daGrevis: that depends on the arguments. Usually you can wrap it in an anonymous function or use partial

8:36 yeah

8:36 daGrevis: :)

8:36 TimMc: You want (iterate inc' 1) for that, since inc' will autopromote to BigInteger as needed.

8:37 daGrevis: what's '? TimMc

8:37 TimMc: Just part of the name of in'

8:37 err, inc'

8:37 (doc inc')

8:37 clojurebot: "([x]); Returns a number one greater than num. Supports arbitrary precision. See also: inc"

8:37 hyPiRion: TimMc: Now I want to check if that's actually a problem

8:38 * hyPiRion is doing (last (iterate inc 1))

8:39 daGrevis: TimMc, in that case,what's the difference between inc and inc'?

8:39 shit it shounds like ink in my head

8:39 hyPiRion: daGrevis: It's usually easier to explain with an example

8:39 ,(inc Long/MAX_VALUE)

8:39 clojurebot: #<ArithmeticException java.lang.ArithmeticException: integer overflow>

8:39 hyPiRion: ,(inc' Long/MAX_VALUE)

8:39 clojurebot: 9223372036854775808N

8:50 TimMc: daGrevis: See the "N" at the end of the latter result? That's how Clojure prints BigInteger, which isn't a fixnum.

8:51 daGrevis: TimMc, I see, thanks :)

8:51 TimMc: hyPiRion: That'll take a while... maybe try starting higher? :-P

8:51 hyPiRion: TimMc: No, that's why I want to try it :p

8:52 TimMc: &(time (/ 1 0))

8:52 lazybot: java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero

8:53 hyPiRion: TimMc: JVM_OPTS='' time lein eval '(last (iterate inc 1))'

8:54 TimMc: heh

8:55 hyPiRion: You don't think JVM startup time won't significantly affect the measurement? ;-)

8:55 hyPiRion: TimMc: I'll subtract a minute or two, for good measure :p

8:55 daGrevis: (take 1 coll) gives back (x). is there a better way to get back x without (first (take 1 coll))

8:56 TimMc: (first coll) will do it

8:56 hyPiRion: daGrevis: (first coll) works, or (nth coll 1)

8:56 (nth coll 0) I mean. Silly me

8:57 daGrevis: hyPiRion, ye, stupid me. :)

8:58 Morgawr: ibdknox: I noticed https://github.com/LightTable/LightTable/commit/e184b1b982cdd0b7aa8d2cb3276d54f13d98db53 this merge in LT, aside from the common flamewarsy issues... it's just a regex that changed "he" with "they" even in places where it doesn't make sense (they's, they doesn't, etc etc), shouldn't this be reverted or fixed in these places?

9:01 TimMc: haha

9:02 A friend of mine who writes fiction often complains about not having a tool that can automatically swap out genders when he's midway through writing a story.

9:02 hyPiRion: Morgawr: yeah, looks a bit out of place.

9:03 Morgawr: hyPiRion: I know that "feminist software foundation" is just a troll/satire thing and I don't want to get into the matter (not worth the internet hate because of it), but objectively that merged request is just wrong because unmatched verbs lol

9:03 (regardless of the legitimacy of changing he/she with they/one)

9:04 TimMc: (But being a programmer, acknowledges that this would be mucho difficult.)

9:04 Morgawr: TimMc: bonus points if somebody finds how to do that in a single regex

9:06 hyPiRion: Morgawr: I don't know much about FSF, but I've realised the problems with he/she in documentation. At least they are attempting to remedy the issue, whether that's automated or not.

9:07 TimMc: hyPiRion: https://github.com/LightTable/LightTable/pull/1055 It's a troll.

9:07 Morgawr: hyPiRion: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/c-plus-equality-c

9:07 hyPiRion: Oh, and by FSF I meant Feminist Software Foundation, not Free Software Foundation

9:08 TimMc: I doubt a legit request would confuse male defaulting with transphobia.

9:08 Morgawr: I just call Poe's Law in these cases and move on

9:08 because it's really not worth it to argue

9:09 bitemyapp: it says something that the PR was merged.

9:10 TimMc: bitemyapp: Yeah, that makes me sadpanda. It sets a bad precedent at the very least.

9:10 bitemyapp: One day, I'll have a library popular enough to get a PR from the feminist software foundation.

9:10 Morgawr: it was merged mostly because ibdknox can't be arsed to bear with this bullshit (at least that's what I infer from his tone), after all it's from upstream code so it shouldn't even be his concern (it will be re-merged as it was when the upstream code is updated anyway so who cares)

9:11 TimMc: Ah. Fair point.

9:12 bitemyapp: my antipathy for post modernism is glowing red.

9:12 Morgawr: bitemyapp: I feel you

9:13 bitemyapp: I think half of po-mo is an excuse for the developed world to navel-gaze so hard that western society collapses in on itself.

9:13 and we'll deserve it.

9:28 Glenjamin: bitemyapp: cheers for the tip, i've done enough now that i'm ready to properly tackle JoC once the 2nd edition is done :)

9:28 these testimonials sound good though, i might pick up clojure programming anyway

9:29 RickInAtlanta: I am reading the MEA right now

9:29 MEAP

9:29 bitemyapp: I just learned this exists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canal_(China)

9:29 Glenjamin: i've got the meap, but too lazy to read it all as pdf :D

9:29 bitemyapp: Mind boggling.

9:30 RickInAtlanta: I downloaded it as .mobi, using kindle reader

9:30 Glenjamin: i'm pretty sure i did the one that involves a paper book arriving at some point, so i expect a surprise present in the springtime

9:38 daGrevis: what is this line doing? let [ns (sort > nums)

9:39 exactly, sort > nums

9:39 sort isn't defined in that file and I can't find it in core api

9:39 Morgawr: dmi3y: defines 'ns' within the let binding by sorting "nums" using > comparator

9:39 Glenjamin: sort nums using >

9:39 lumafi: ,(sort > [3 2 4 1 5])

9:39 clojurebot: (5 4 3 2 1)

9:39 Morgawr: ,(doc sort)

9:39 clojurebot: "([coll] [comp coll]); Returns a sorted sequence of the items in coll. If no comparator is supplied, uses compare. comparator must implement java.util.Comparator. If coll is a Java array, it will be modified. To avoid this, sort a copy of the array."

9:39 daGrevis: lumafi, Morgawr it's not here :( http://clojuredocs.org/quickref/Clojure%20Core

9:40 thanks

9:40 hyPiRion: TimMc: (last (iterate inc 1)) takes more than one hour, at least

9:40 I gave up at that point

9:40 Morgawr: daGrevis: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/sort using the "search" at the top

9:40 but yeah, I usually use "doc" and "source" because they are great tools

9:40 one of the reasons I love clojure

9:41 RickInAtlanta: hyPiRion: Isn't that an infinite sequence?

9:41 Morgawr: hyPiRion: not sure if serious

9:41 hyPiRion: RickInAtlanta, Morgawr: No

9:41 well, yes, but it errors

9:41 ,(last (iterate inc (- 100 Long/MAX_VALUE)))

9:42 clojurebot: Execution Timed Out

9:42 hyPiRion: whops, wrong way

9:42 ,(last (iterate inc (- Long/MAX_VALUE 100)))

9:42 clojurebot: #<ArithmeticException java.lang.ArithmeticException: integer overflow>

9:42 Morgawr: ah, I see, it errors

9:46 expez: How do you load your project when using cider? Do you have to use C-c C-k on each file? Right now cider-jump et. al does nothing when acting on my own code.

9:52 progo: C-c C-k on core.clj does the trick

9:55 expez: thanks

10:15 mklappstuhl: whats the best place to jump start into clojurescript knowing javascript and some clojure?

10:16 insamniac: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTxNnYfWHOw

10:16 unless you don't like watching videos

10:18 Really I shouldn't be answering, 'cause you and I are in the same boat.

10:18 RickInAtlanta: https://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs

10:19 insamniac: Neat. Thanks, Rick.

10:19 RickInAtlanta: np

10:19 insamniac: Are you in the atl-clj meetup group?

10:19 RickInAtlanta: Yep

10:20 Are you?

10:20 insamniac: I wanted to go to that Datomic presentation

10:20 yeah, but I live in Augusta

10:20 RickInAtlanta: That is tuesday

10:20 ah, ok

10:20 insamniac: yeah.. I have like 2 vacation hours, otherwise I'd be going.

10:21 RickInAtlanta: Is there much Clojure in Augusta?

10:22 insamniac: I have no idea. Certainly not where I work. I don't socialize too much, but I don't think I've met anyone who's even heard of it. Unless they heard it from me.

10:23 Morgawr: Amsterdam clojure meetup representative checking in! :D

10:23 insamniac: I work with Java people who are reluctant to even adopt Groovy.

10:23 * Morgawr goes hide

10:24 RickInAtlanta: There seem to be a few companies using Clojure in Atlanta. We probably have about half a dozen people who attend the meetings that get to use it for work

10:25 edw: When I was in Philly, we have an FP meet-up, which was always fun because you'd have the Clojure and Scala people there, feeling complete mutual hostility.

10:27 RickInAtlanta: There has been some talk about starting a FP group in Atlanta. The Clojure group meets every month, but Scala only met a couple of times last year

10:27 edw: My company is a next door to Foursquare, and one of my guys' gf works there, and so he was at the company Xmas party, where once of their alpha nerds ridiculed him for working at a company that used Clojure.

10:27 mklappstuhl: insamniac: don't really like videos. want to setup a quickstart stack and get my hands dirty kind of :)

10:28 RickInAtlanta: mklappstul, did you see my link, to modern-cljs

10:28 https://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs

10:28 mklappstuhl: RickInAtlanta: that link (modern cljs) looks good :)

10:28 insamniac: Oh look at Rick's link

10:28 RickInAtlanta: :)

10:28 edw: (This ridiculing guy was a big Scale guy.)

10:29 Morgawr: edw: sounds like sour grapes :P does he get to work in Scala at the company?

10:29 insamniac: I think Foursquare is one of the first mentioned when you ask who uses Scala.

10:30 early adopters

10:30 Morgawr: oh okay, I didn't know that (not much into the Scala world or companies world :P)

10:30 edw: Morgawr: I think so. I think he's a true believer. Some people aren't content to do their thing, they need to convince everyone else that what they're doing is wrong. For my part, I tell people to STFU about our Clojure use because I see it as a competitive advantage.

10:30 * Morgawr is a small sad academic

10:31 edw: Morgawr: Twitter's big into Scala.

10:31 Is there a JVM-hosted Haskell?

10:32 Morgawr: I'm waiting for the day the world realizes that all these new language iterations are eventually going to converge into something that a few people have been using since the late 50s/early 60s, known as "Lisp"

10:32 Ember-: most likely no since JVM doesn't support TCO and that's kinda mandatory for Haskell

10:32 Pupnik_: edw, yeah but i dont remmeber the name

10:32 Ember-: this one guy I know started to create a Haskell to java bytecode compiler

10:32 Morgawr: a quick googling gave me this http://jaskell.codehaus.org/ not sure if relevant

10:33 Ember-: he said it was pretty straightforward until he had to implement TCO where he hit a brick wall

10:33 edw: Ember-: Ah, good point. That's why I'm basically not a Scheme programmer anymore.

10:33 Pupnik_: while you're at it give haskell lisp syntax

10:34 Morgawr: Pupnik_: it's called typed clojure ;)

10:35 edw: Pupnik_: While I'm a parens (and brackets and brockets and braces) man, Haskell's syntax is justifiable IMO because it's basically maths notation in seven-bit ASCII.

10:37 AeroNotix: So much misunderstandings in the last few sentences

10:37 insamniac: yeah, what the hell is a brocket

10:37 hah

10:38 edw: E.g. "x <- A" can be read like "x is an element of A" and <- sort of looks like "∈".

10:38 insamniac: Sorry, spent too much time in #scheme with Riastradh: angle brackets.

10:38 Morgawr: insamniac: a two-year-old red deer with its first horns

10:38 http://www.thefreedictionary.com/brocket

10:38 insamniac: haha

10:39 edw: Wow, the Free Dictionary wants to send notifications to my Message Center. Umm, no, but thank you.

10:40 http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt

10:40 Morgawr: edw: sorry, I use that becaue duckduckgo redirects me there when I use !d

10:40 Pupnik_: AeroNotix, care to elaborate?

10:40 edw: Actually, he uses "brokets".

10:41 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/broket

10:41 Not _his_ neologism. Perhaps an MIT AI Lab thing.

10:41 AeroNotix: Pupnik_: Morgawr saying that everything will eventually converge on everything being a lisp. It's just fail

10:42 and the JVM supports tail recursive calls

10:42 Morgawr: AeroNotix: it was mostly a joke of mine

10:42 but trends seem to go that way feature-wise :P

10:42 AeroNotix: just not eliminating the stack at tail calls

10:42 but recursive ones work, AFAIK

10:43 edw: I've been very fortunate in that I had a lot of experience on the metal in assembly, bit twiddling in C, etc, but also with Scheme. I think you need nice mix of high and low. The stars and the gutter.

10:43 AeroNotix: Morgawr: sure, go write a typesafe applicative monad in Clojure. I'll wait.

10:43 * Morgawr sighs

10:44 edw: AeroNotix: Isn't sime Quixote working on typed Clojure?

10:44 s/sime/some/

10:44 insamniac: ambrose

10:44 Morgawr: ^

10:44 AeroNotix: What kind of typesystem is it going to have, though?

10:45 edw: What's the term the Scala true believers throw around imperiously?

10:45 Morgawr: AeroNotix: https://github.com/clojure/core.typed

10:45 (I don't personally know much about the details in typed clojure, the repo and docs probably know more)

10:45 but yeah, interesting project yadda yadda might be worth considering for the future yadda yadda

10:45 Pupnik_: theres a clojure lib that ports haskells monad stuff over

10:45 thought not the type system

10:45 edw: Very odd how Haskell programmers seem to have less of a chip on their shouder than Scala one do.

10:46 AeroNotix: Pupnik_: and therein lies the fail

10:46 edw: s/one/ones/

10:46 AeroNotix: (

10:46 (I'm not saying these things are needed, but they are different features which don't exactly fit in Clojure, and thus, mean that it is not converging on Lisp)

10:47 edw: AeroNotix: Good of you to keep the "fail" thing going. I was afraid that we might be living in a world where people didn't say "rofl" instead of laughing.

10:48 AeroNotix: edw: what on Earth are you talking about? Address my points instead of using ad hominem.

10:49 insamniac: Take a coffee break..

10:49 * Morgawr should refrain from lauding Lisp in a Lisp-related channel the next time

10:49 AeroNotix: Morgawr: I just dislike fanaticism

10:49 there's no need for it

10:49 insamniac: Who's being fanatical?

10:50 AeroNotix: Morgawr was bordering the line, insamniac

10:50 but w/e. No big deal.

10:50 Morgawr: it was a joke D:

10:50 I'm far from a lisp fanatic

10:50 only lisp I've ever used is Clojure after years of coding in C (and I still consider that my favorite language)

10:51 edw: AeroNotix: Sigh. A bit quick on the ad hominem trigger, yes? I've simply got sick of people saying "FAIL!" and "EPIC FAIL!"

10:51 AeroNotix: edw: cool

10:52 edw: s/got/gotten/

10:52 AeroNotix: Typed clojure sounds annoyingly like Dialyzer

10:52 edw: AeroNotix: Please recall that I was defending Haskell's syntax supra.

10:53 AeroNotix: edw: ok, standing down. I don't care.

10:53 edw: AeroNotix: Sounds good to me.

10:53 AeroNotix: Anyone with experience of typed clojure and dialyzer?

10:54 Watching a video here seems to make it look very similar in usage

10:54 dnolen: AeroNotix: Typed Clojure is not really all that related to dialyzer at all

10:54 AeroNotix: dialyzer is not a type system

10:54 Morgawr: isn't dyalizer more like a linter?

10:54 dnolen: AeroNotix: Typed Clojure is a fully typed dialect of Clojure, based on Typed Racket, tons of prior research

10:54 Morgawr: dialyzer*

10:55 AeroNotix: Morgawr: bit of both, really

10:55 dnolen: hmm ok

10:55 dnolen: Morgawr: yes

10:55 AeroNotix: good chunk of ML derived type system ideas are present in Typed Clojure and then some, like typed heterogenous maps

10:56 edw: I wonder, on the topic of type inference, how much it even makes sense in Clojureland, since so many data structures are simply maps. Maps that could theoretically by checked against schemas, I suppose, which could constitute a sort of type membership test. Hmm.

10:56 AeroNotix: dnolen: interesting. Are people using it in production?

10:56 dnolen: AeroNotix: yep

10:56 AeroNotix: wicked

10:56 insamniac: dnolen: Is there gonna be a talk on Om that will make it to ClojureTV any time soon?

10:56 Morgawr: talking about linters, saw this a few minutes ago https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/clojure/uITu1sT3SaQ/c85ih4zM4qwJ

10:56 dnolen: insamniac: don't think so, but I expect to giving talks about it plenty this year

10:57 insamniac: Come on down to Georgia

10:57 You'll have at least one person in the audience.

10:57 dnolen: insamniac: heh :)

10:57 edw: dnolen: Is the name inspired by the restaurant?

10:58 dnolen: edw: no play on DOM, and Om from sanskrit

10:59 edw: Good restaurant though. UES. Fugue states have been entered after meals there.

11:02 RickInAtlanta: sorry, was away.... insamniac two

11:05 insamniac: RickInAtlanta: Are there any big conferences in ATL? I've only just started to try and be less antisocial.

11:06 The wife does like going to ATL for the vegan restaurants though.

11:06 RickInAtlanta: insamniac: DevNexus is next month.

11:06 I think there is going to be an open source conference in late spring or early summer...

11:06 insamniac: Interesting. Now to get my boss to pay for it.

11:07 RickInAtlanta: conference isn't expensive. $240 for 2 day event. but it is a monday and tuesday... I was going to go last year, but I just started a new job the week before, and didn't feel like asking for time off right away

11:10 http://greatwideopen.org/ open source conference in Atlanta, April 2 and 3

11:14 dnolen: lsdafjklsd: you there?

11:14 insamniac: RickInAtlanta: Cool. I will make an effort to attend both of those.

11:14 lsdafjklsd: dnolen: ya man

11:15 dnolen: lsdafjklsd: this is yours right? https://github.com/swannodette/om/issues/54

11:15 lsdafjklsd: dnolen: no

11:15 dnolen: lsdafjklsd: oh hmm, very similar looking code :)

11:15 lsdafjklsd: k thanks

11:17 lsdafjklsd: dnolen: that's wierd :p

11:22 webstonne: hello

11:23 insamniac: Hell-o

11:24 webstonne: what is the hot jobs in Clojure right now?

11:24 web apps?

11:25 Morgawr: I'm working on game development but I'm probably one of the few people (maybe 5? 10?) doing so in clojure

11:25 webstonne: you use HTML5 with that?

11:25 Ember-: I can guarantee that there are more than 10 ppl worldwide doing game development with clojure

11:25 webstonne: and Clojure as the scripting?

11:25 Morgawr: I've done a couple of ClojureScript games with HTML5 yeah but now I'm working on a Clojure (JVM) engine

11:25 non-html5

11:25 Ember-: I hope so :D

11:26 webstonne: I see ...

11:26 Ember-: the very least I could see clojure as a server side language for mmorpgs and such

11:26 that's game development too

11:26 webstonne: I'm just trying to get a feel on where things are

11:27 RickInAtlanta: have you seen moorepl? It is a browser based mud that allows players to script the environment in Clojure.

11:27 Glenjamin: dnolen: can cljs/om run server-side? is there a suggested approach for rendering the initial page load in a crawler-friendly way?

11:27 RickInAtlanta: Not production ready, but it looked like a neat experiment

11:27 edw: webstonne: We (at my start-up) use Clojure extensively for web service development and data processing.

11:27 dnolen: Glenjamin: https://github.com/swannodette/om/issues/47

11:28 Glenjamin: awesome, thanks

11:28 dnolen: Glenjamin: but also you could easily make a small library that generates the type of markup that React expects

11:28 Glenjamin: I think this is the real solution versus running CLJS server side

11:28 Glenjamin: the thought struck me as i was watching the react presentation from jsconfeu

11:28 webstonne: yes, data processing ... thanks. I was thinking about that

11:29 Morgawr: RickInAtlanta: can't find it via google, got a link?

11:29 edw: webstonne: Cascalog was actually, about three years ago, the catalyst for my dropping Scheme (for fun) and Python (for profit) and using Clojure in production.

11:29 ...for both fun and profit.

11:29 Glenjamin: the "big data" team at my work seem to just be using hive - which seems like cheating to me

11:30 RickInAtlanta: ah I spelled it wrong, murepl https://github.com/nathanielksmith/murepl

11:33 edw: Glenjamin: We wound up moving from Heroku Pg to Redshift for a lot of our reportorial work.

11:34 Glenjamin: they mostly just have a big oracle db, i think hadoop was just an excuse to spend some cash

11:36 delihiros: hi all. I'm reading IFn.java (https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/IFn.java) now, but I can't understand why invoke being defined like this. Is there any reason for that?

11:37 webstonne: You think ClosureScript will give Hive a run for it's money?

11:38 edw: Glenjamin: I spent a lot of time working with Hadoop in the context of Cascalog a few years ago, and we've spent a lot of time with EMR at the current gig. The esteem in which I hold Hadoop monotonically decreases. It works--or can be made to work--but it's a skanky kludge.

11:38 It drove me away from Cascalog.

11:38 webstonne: and become a first class query language working with big data?

11:38 edw: webstonne: Not sure what you mean; are you suggesting a MongoDB-style DB using CLJS as a query language?

11:39 Glenjamin: SQL is so good because it's a declarative approach to extracting data, and its been around long enough that pretty much everyone knows it

11:39 to be better than SQL for querying data, you'd have to be *very* good

11:39 meanwhile someone will take whatever you've done, and write a way to translate SQL into it

11:39 and the cycle begins again :p

11:39 webstonne: MongoDB-style DB using CLJS as a query language? ... yes something on that order

11:40 Glenjamin: delihiros: it's a speed trick for the JVM afaik

11:40 "Object... args" is slow

11:40 so if you can avoid that, you'll be faster

11:41 edw: A good friend of mine (who is very opinionated) has said that you can either make MongoDB safe or fast. Sort of like the MySQL of old.

11:41 delihiros: Glenjamin: oh, didn't know that, thank you

11:41 Glenjamin: i think neither is true

11:41 we're using it as a non-primary

11:41 so we turned off fsync, and write concerns, and journalling

11:41 and it's still not that fast

11:42 edw: I think, uncharacteristically, my friend was being generous.

11:42 Morgawr: RickInAtlanta: wow, murepl looks cool as hell, thanks for the link!

11:42 RickInAtlanta: Glenjamin: I am getting ready to start a project, I was going to use Mongo. Do you have an alternative I should explore?

11:42 edw: Redis, on the other hand, has become my hammer.

11:42 Glenjamin: RickInAtlanta: i hear good things about rethink, but it depends on your problem space

11:43 mongo will probably be good-enough

11:43 RickInAtlanta: Morgawr: yeah, he did a talk about it at the Atlanta meetup group. I thought it was fantastic.

11:43 Glenjamin: as would postgres/mysql

11:43 edw: RickInAtlanta: It comes down to what your data looks like, and how you want to query it, and what you're willing to be slow vs fast, and whether you're willing to spend shit-tonnes of money.

11:44 RickInAtlanta: edw: cost is a much bigger issue than speed in this case

11:44 Morgawr: RickInAtlanta: is there a video of such talk?

11:44 Glenjamin: someone was pointing out to me the other day that for most side-projects, in-memory maps + slurp/spit to disk is probably "good enough"

11:44 edw: For example, if your data set is big, Redis is out of the question. (Or if you want to, you know, not program atop a fairly primitive datastructure store.)

11:44 RickInAtlanta: Morgawr: no, no video. sorry

11:45 Morgawr: RickInAtlanta: aw, shucks, but still great project

11:45 edw: Glenjamin: Yes, that or Pg.

11:45 Glenjamin: mm

11:45 my main complaint about pg

11:45 is that its a proper database

11:45 with strict types

11:45 and i'm lazy when i use dynamic languages

11:45 edw: Glenjamin: I say Pg because it's easy to provision and writing to a local disk is not always possible.

11:46 Glenjamin: yeah, i'm on heroku for my app so currently thinking i'll use pg

11:46 edw: Glenjamin: Yes, I hear you on that. There's always serializing to TEXT/BLOB columns.

11:46 Glenjamin: but so far i'm managing to get away with only using cookies + logs :D

11:47 edw: Glenjamin: Exactly. I'm becoming a big fan of HTML local storage. If only iClould would sync that across my devices.

11:47 webstonne: maybe this is the video I need to watch to see some of the future possibilities of Clojure may be heading ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLgzCkhN2g

11:47 Glenjamin: oo, that'd be neat

11:47 i've got a /hax URL on mine that spits out a QR code containing the whole session data

11:47 webstonne: Master Plan for Clojure Enterprise Mindshare Domination - Neal Ford

11:48 edw: QR codes can hold an aribtrary amount of data? Do they just get larger?

11:48 Glenjamin: my session is small :D

11:48 but technically, yes i think they can be arbitrarily large

11:48 edw: That would be the first justifiable use of QR I've come across.

11:49 Glenjamin: and if you know you're in a high-fidelity situation you can turn down the error correction to decrease entropy

11:49 login on desktop, transfer to mobile is a nice flow

11:49 webstonne: thanks for all the great input. catch you all later

11:49 edw: Back in the old days, there was a product that would scan paper and turn it into binary files. It was big (to the extent that it was ever big) back when computer magazines had pages of code in them.

11:50 Glenjamin: do you recall when TV shows about games used to broadcast the binary at the end of the credits?

11:50 edw: What was that? Shit, that was almost thirty years ago.

11:50 Glenjamin: Sadly, I missed that.

11:55 Glenjamin: i'm failing to find any reference to this on the internet

11:55 but i'm sure it was a thing

12:03 do you guys think i should invest my time learning emacs, or learning lighttable & making plugins for the bits it doesn't do yet?

12:05 AeroNotix: Depends how much you care

12:05 emacs really integrates well with Lisps, LightTable is not really proven in the sense that emacs is

12:06 varioust: eme

12:06 edw: Glenjamin: Emacs but keep an eye on Lighttable.

12:06 Glenjamin: yeah, i'm trying to guess whether the learning curve of emacs is more of a problem than the immaturity of lighttable

12:07 edw: Glenjamin: Emacs will be around in fifty years.

12:07 Morgawr: edw: not if lighttable beats it ;)

12:07 edw: I've been using Emacs for over twenty.

12:08 Morgawr: I hear you. And I wouldn't mind, I suppose.

12:09 Let me know when I can M-C-h to select a top-level form in Lighttable. But again, I'm a big fan of it.

12:09 Morgawr: It being LT.

12:14 mercwithamouth: i switch between emacs and light tablee every few weeks.

12:16 gcganley: im thinking of moving from vim to emacs because i'm learing clojure. is there a way to adapt keystrokes from vim to emacs?

12:16 mercwithamouth: evil

12:16 ...if i'm not mistaken though vim as fireplace is it?

12:17 edw: Not to be confused with 'vile'.

12:17 gcganley: oh wow thats exactly what im looking for, but is it more worth it to relearn the keystrokes of emacs or just use evil

12:18 edw: gcganley: In general, I think, when learning something new, you should let the essence of that thing wash over you, and not try to constantly be thinking about it in relation to something which has a completely differen gestalt.

12:19 s/differen/different/

12:20 gcganley: These days, Emacs is fairly approachable if used with a windowing system. We had web designers using XEmacs in an X11 session back in '98 at CDNOW. Now _that_ was a nightmare.

12:21 gcganley: I used to be Emacs-in-a-terminal true believer, but I've been using Emacs as a Cocoa app for the last six months, and I'm OK with that now.

12:21 gcganley: edw: im dual booting windows 8.1 and arch linux but i mainly use windows for the gameing and rebooting into archlinux is a bit of a hassel, is the win32 version of emacs as mature and powerful as the *nix version/

12:21 *?

12:21 clojurebot: * is just for when you are lazy and sloppy

12:22 mrhanky: does anybody know a good resource for using cljs.async? i don't get this whole stuff :/

12:22 edw: gcganley: I don't know, but I believe that there's a Windows build of Emacs 24.4, which means it's the same Emacs we Unix/Mac users are using.

12:23 Or a 24.3, which is the latest stable release.

12:23 Lots of great polish in 24.4 though.

12:24 gcganley: edw: is it strictly needed to learn elisp to use emacs to its full potential or is it just something you use for key binding customization

12:24 edw: also thanks for helping out

12:24 edw: gcganley: You should consider starting up Emacs, typing Control-H then 't' and then spending an afternoon learning Emacs.

12:24 gcganley: No, you don't need to know elisp at all for Emacs to be an awesome editor.

12:25 gcganley: You're welcome.

12:25 Glenjamin: i've done C-h t twice now

12:25 after the first time i didn't touch emacs for a month or two

12:26 then accidentally opened it in my shell and couldn't remember how to exit

12:27 edw: Glenjamin: C-x C-c. I was utterly traumatized by vi when I first encountered in back in '89. I pissed off the sysadmin because I would hang his serial line because I'd disconnect. ESC ":q!"

12:27 Glenjamin: yeah, i found it in the end

12:28 it doesn't help that cocoa emacs allows cmd+q

12:28 edw: Glenjamin: Maybe the point is that you _can't_ quit until you learn how. :P

12:28 gcganley: yeah my Visual Studio buffers are full of :x

12:28 Glenjamin: i was doing C-h a and looking for "quit"

12:28 not knowing the term i needed was kill

12:28 for years the only vim i knew was :q!

12:28 edw: gcganley: A friend and colleague would send me email messages filled with stuff like that.

12:29 Glenjamin: Right! ":q! EDITOR=emacs crontab -e ..."

12:29 Glenjamin: heh, even worse

12:29 EDITOR=nano

12:40 gtrak: how do I make this work? ## (read-string "cljs.core//")

12:40 lazybot: java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: cljs.core//

12:40 Glenjamin: gtrak: what are you trying to do?

12:41 gtrak: slurp the spitted output of the cljs analyzer back into a data structure.

12:41 chokes on the '/' var.

12:41 Glenjamin: oh, i see

12:41 gtrak: so, prn is creating something that read can't handle

12:43 Glenjamin: ## (read-string "clojure.core//")

12:43 lazybot: ⇒ clojure.core//

12:43 gtrak: special-case?

12:44 Glenjamin: interesting

12:44 echosa: Hey, all. Google has failed me. What can I do about this: "Don't know how to write JSON of class org.h2.jdbc.JdbcClob" (using clojure.data.json and clojure.java.jdbc)

12:44 gtrak: well, I can special case it in mine with some replaces

12:44 echosa: The issue seems to be with SQL tables defined with "text" columns

12:44 gtrak: then replace it later...

12:45 Glenjamin: ## (let [/ 1] /)

12:45 lazybot: ⇒ 1

12:45 gtrak: ##(symbol "cljs.core//")

12:45 lazybot: ⇒ cljs.core//

12:45 gtrak: ##(name (symbol "cljs.core//"))

12:45 lazybot: ⇒ ""

12:45 gtrak: hmm

12:45 ##(name (symbol "cljs.core/" "/"))

12:45 lazybot: ⇒ "/"

12:46 gtrak: ah, lol

12:46 ##(symbol "cljs.core/" "/")

12:46 lazybot: ⇒ cljs.core///

12:46 Glenjamin: hrm

12:46 gtrak: that makes no sense

12:47 ah, my fault, actually, extra slash

12:47 ##(symbol "cljs.core" "/")

12:47 lazybot: ⇒ cljs.core//

12:47 Glenjamin: i think it's a reader thing

12:47 i can assign to "user//"

12:47 and access as "/"

12:47 but not as "user//"

12:47 gtrak: it's definitely a reader thing

12:48 Glenjamin: i guess either prn should turn it into a call to symbol, or the reader should handle it

12:49 weird that clojure.core// works though

12:49 although it wants a second newline on the repl for some reason

12:52 gtrak: I'm doing a string/replace on input, followed up by a clojure.walk

12:53 not the worst thing in the world

12:54 echosa: Ah, had to add a custom :row-fn to my (sql/query) call that does this: (with-open [rdr (java.io.BufferedReader. (.getCharacterStream value))]

12:54 {:id (:id row) :name (apply str (line-seq rdr))})

12:54 Oops. That shouldn't have been two lines/messages.

12:57 Glenjamin: hrm, seems inelegant - is there a protocol you can extend to tell clojure.java.jdbc what to do?

12:59 echosa: it looks like you should be able to extend the http://clojure.github.io/java.jdbc/#clojure.java.jdbc/ISQLValue to your type

13:00 or actually, it's the json bit that's missing the protocol

13:00 http://clojure.github.io/data.json/#clojure.data.json/JSONWriter

13:01 echosa: Ah, JdbcClob is not in the list of "known implementations"

13:01 Glenjamin: mm

13:01 echosa: Not sure how to add an implementation. Off to Google I go!

13:01 Glenjamin: you can just implement that protocol for JdbcClob, and it should work nicely

13:02 http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/extend

13:02 echosa: This is my first clojure experience and project. Trying to learn it. I've written Lisp stuff before, just never clojure.

13:03 Glenjamin: if you've used haskell at all, this is similar to type classes

13:05 gtrak: efff yes

13:05 about 20 minutes away from a cljs-autodoc proof of concept :-)

13:07 TimMc: hyPiRion: I think I left (last (iterate inc 1)) running overnight once.

13:07 Glenjamin: presumably it runs forever?

13:08 gtrak: more importantly, start of infrastructure to do more

13:08 TimMc: What you should do is (time (try (last (iterate inc (- Long/MAX_VALUE 100000))) (catch ArithmeticException ae :whoops!)))

13:08 hyPiRion: ^ then you can estimate how long it would take starting at 1

13:09 Glenjamin: i guess clojure doesn't automatically coerce a long into a double?

13:10 (like JS)

13:24 echosa: really dumb, newbie question: Can someone explain reify?

13:26 xificurC: ,(doc reify)

13:26 clojurebot: "([& opts+specs]); reify is a macro with the following structure: (reify options* specs*) Currently there are no options. Each spec consists of the protocol or interface name followed by zero or more method bodies: protocol-or-interface-or-Object (methodName [args+] body)* Methods should be supplied for all methods of the desired protocol(s) and interface(s). You can also define overrides for meth...

13:27 andersf: echosa: if you're familiar with java, reify is very much like creating anonymous classes

13:27 echosa: xificurC: I've read the docs, but I still get confused when I see "reify" or "reified" in the stuff I'm reading.

13:27 gfredericks: "reified" would be a more general idea

13:28 echosa: andersf: Ah. Hm. I need to keep that in mind when I'm reading about it. Might help me understand better. Thanks.

13:28 xificurC: you can take a protocol or interface and extend it or override some of its methods

13:28 gfredericks: echosa: "reify" could refer to that general concept or to the macro clojure.core/reify

13:29 Glenjamin: "make this instance respond to these protocols in this way" - is that the idea?

13:29 gfredericks: ,(deref (reify clojure.lang.IDeref (deref [this] {:this this :foo 42})))

13:29 clojurebot: {:this #<sandbox$eval47$reify__48@161c2fb: {:this #<sandbox$eval47$reify__48@161c2fb: {:this #<sandbox$eval47$reify__48@161c2fb: {:this #<sandbox$eval47$reify__48@161c2fb: {:this #<sandbox$eval47$reify__48@161c2fb: #>, :foo 42}>, :foo 42}>, :foo 42}>, :foo 42}>, :foo 42}

13:29 gfredericks: lol

13:29 fantastic example there :P

13:30 echosa: There's a bot in here that executes code? That is fantastic.

13:30 xificurC: e.g. you can return an object that implements ISeq but change its seq method

13:30 gfredericks: ,(count (reify clojure.lang.Counted (count [this] 30000)))

13:30 clojurebot: 30000

13:31 echosa: So, similar to method overloading? At least that's what the (count) example seems to show.

13:31 gfredericks: echosa: what other langs are you familiar with?

13:32 echosa: PHP, JavaScript, Java, in that order

13:32 gfredericks: aw dang PHP is the one I know the least :)

13:33 Glenjamin: var a = {}; a.toString = function() { return "abc" }; console.log("" + a)

13:33 kinda like that, if i'm following correctly

13:34 matt444: emacs newb question. I'm using clojure mode, can wrap with parens using M-(

13:34 But cannot wrap brackets

13:34 How are people doing this?

13:34 gfredericks: matt444: I always make an empty pair of brackets and then use slurp

13:34 xificurC: C-<right>

13:34 gfredericks: I don't often do things optimally though

13:35 echosa: matt444: I let paredit handle my braces/parens/brackets/quotes for me.

13:35 matt444: echosa: not sure what you mean

13:35 echosa: paredit is an emacs package you can install

13:36 and it's awesome for handling all those things I mentioned

13:36 matt444: i know, i have it

13:36 echosa: takes a few minutes to get used to it

13:36 matt444: it comes with clojure mode

13:36 echosa: ah, then specifically you can do what gfredericks sais about slurping

13:36 *said

13:36 gfredericks: which is M-) I think

13:37 echosa: I believe so

13:37 gfredericks: at least for me

13:37 (from inside the [])

13:37 matt444: maybe paredit isn't on be default with clojure mode, should check

13:37 echosa: so given: "thing to wrap"

13:37 gfredericks: matt444: the modes are usually listed at the bottem

13:37 M-x paredit-mode to toggle on/off

13:37 echosa: I would do this: () "thing to wrap"

13:37 then inside the () type M-)

13:37 matt444: gfredericks: bottom of what?

13:37 gfredericks: matt444: right below the buffer

13:37 echosa: check your modeling for "Paredit"

13:38 Glenjamin: just above the minibuffer in the bottomright

13:38 echosa: *mode-line

13:38 gfredericks: usually inside parens

13:38 it lists the major mode and all the minor modes

13:39 xificurC: echosa: back to reify, take an interface like ISeq that supports first and rest/next etc. You could take this interface and extend it with a new method or substitute some of its method with another

13:39 matt444: (Clojure Paredit Fill)

13:39 I guess those are my modes?

13:39 xificurC: so you could change rest to e.g. drop the first 2 values instead of just 1

13:40 matt444: So with paredit what is the keybinding to wrap brackets?

13:40 echosa: xificurC: Awesome. I think I get it now. :)

13:40 matt444: See my example above for the paredit way of doing it.

13:40 xificurC: anyway, I have a question of my own: how should I test a function's side effects?

13:40 clojurebot: excusez-moi

13:40 echosa: Otherwise, there's another excellent packages called wrap-region

13:41 xificurC: matt444: ctrl+right

13:41 gfredericks: xificurC: what sort of side effects?

13:41 matt444: echosa: I don't get your example. You want me to type: () "thing to wrap"?

13:41 gfredericks: xificurC: I'm not sure what you meant by "extend it with a new method" but it sounds wrong

13:41 xificurC: should work when you are inside a bracketed expression. You will 'slurp' the next s-expression/symbol/...

13:41 matt444: echosa: I'm trying to wrap text that already exists

13:42 gfredericks: matt444: type literally: [ C-f M-)

13:42 danno: Question: The reader. I read a few books on it, and I seem to think that the reader is like java.io.Reader, but it reads clojure forms, unevaluated.

13:42 I am in the right frame of mind?

13:42 gfredericks: danno: java.io.Reader is an interface for doing IO

13:42 danno: yeah, just doing an analogy

13:42 gfredericks: danno: the clojure reader is more like a function that converts textual data to clojure data

13:42 xificurC: gfredericks: like a function that takes a csv file and splits it into many?

13:42 gfredericks: danno: not necessarily anything to do with IO

13:43 matt444: what is the meta key on osx?

13:43 danno: gfredericks, doesn't it read in chunks?

13:43 echosa: matt444: "thing to wrap" was just some example text that, in my example, would end up wrapped in parens

13:43 danno: much like IO does? (I know it is not IO, I am just trying to make mental bridge) ;)

13:43 echosa: I was basically just saying you should put () before whatever you want to wrap, then inside the parens type M-)

13:44 matt444: echosa: I want to wrap brackets, not parens

13:44 gfredericks: danno: it has a lot more to do with parsing than IO; e.g., read-string will convert a string to a clojure data structure

13:44 muhoo: is it wrong to find it worrisome that so many web tools rely on macros, to the point that stuff like this is necessary? https://github.com/flyingmachine/liberator-templates/blob/master/src/com/flyingmachine/liberator_templates/core.clj#L42

13:44 danno: gfredericks: thanks, that helped! ;)

13:45 echosa: Then type [] instead of () and do the same thing

13:45 gfredericks: danno: ##(read-string "[1 2 {3 4}]")

13:45 lazybot: ⇒ [1 2 {3 4}]

13:45 echosa: Sorry, I wasn't clear on that

13:45 matt444: echosa: so type: [] before the thing I want to wrap, then M-)

13:45 ?

13:45 gfredericks: matt444: yes

13:45 echosa: type M-) with your cursor inside or on the [], yes

13:45 gfredericks: M-) will slurp the next thing into the form your point is over

13:46 the paredit cheatsheet has a nice before/after syntax showing you what things do

13:46 matt444: ok, will try it once I can figure out what the meta key is, thanks

13:46 xificurC: matt444: meta is usually Alt

13:46 Glenjamin: matt444: meta is either tap <esc> or hold alt

13:46 depending on your terminal

13:46 in default Terminal alt isn't meta by default, but you can change it

13:47 matt444: holy wow it worked

13:47 thank you

13:47 Glenjamin: http://cdn.osxdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/meta-key-mac-os-x-terminal.jpg

13:47 taken from http://osxdaily.com/2013/02/01/use-option-as-meta-key-in-mac-os-x-terminal/

13:48 xificurC: so, any cool ideas how to test if a function that splits one csv file into several ones could be put in a test?

13:48 matt444: i use iterm, thanks though

13:48 gfredericks: xificurC: oh sorry I thought you were commenting on the reader discussion

13:48 xificurC: start test by creating a CSV file, run the function, then check that the split ones are there

13:49 xificurC: gfredericks: I did that but I thought I could put some test cases in a file, you know, automated testing

13:50 echosa: Correction: my slurp command is C-), not M-)

13:50 xificurC: but since its a function that only does side effects testing (is (= nil (function-here))) doesnt make much sense :)

13:52 Glenjamin: you probably have to either abstract away the filesystem, or actually interact with the filesystem

13:53 echosa: Once you write an (extend) do you have to do anything to activate it or have it picked up? It's like mine isn't getting run. Does it need to be in the same namespace as the original protocol?

13:56 arrdem: -*/

13:56 0

13:59 danno: Noob Q: (println (1 2 3)) //java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn

13:59 (println 1 2 3) of course is fine

14:00 hyPiRion: danno: 1 is not a function name

14:00 (1 2 3) would be the same as doing 1(2, 3) in C-like languages

14:01 danno: hyPiRion: Got it, thanks

14:01 (+) is interesting that it returns 0, since I was expecting some sort of function

14:02 hyPiRion: ,(+ (*) (+))

14:03 clojurebot: 1

14:03 danno: hyPiRion: Wow

14:04 hyPiRion: I am sure I will read about the comma here shortly, is that a macro of some sort?

14:04 Glenjamin: the comma just tells the irc bot to eval

14:04 danno: oh

14:05 hyPiRion: yeah, in clojure code, it's considered whitespace

14:05 danno: So (+ (*) (+)) will evaluate to (+ 1 0) which evaluates to 1?

14:05 checking

14:05 hyPiRion: yes

14:05 danno: ,(*)

14:05 clojurebot: 1

14:05 danno: boom

14:05 nice

14:06 Glenjamin: echosa: as long as it gets evalled, and the protocol matches it should "just work"

14:06 echosa: That's what I thought, but it doesn't seem to be working

14:07 Glenjamin: if you try it in a repl

14:07 echosa: (extend org.h2.jdbc.JdbcClob json/JSONWriter {:-write write-clob})

14:08 with a require of [clojure.data.json :as json]))

14:08 Glenjamin: now try (json/-write <clobinstance>)

14:08 wait, no

14:08 danno: Noob Q: So quote is meant for representing data that will not be evaluated unless you want it to be evaluated?

14:09 echosa: ick.. making a clobinstance by hand doesn't sound like a good time :-/

14:09 Glenjamin: (json/pprint <clobinstance>)

14:12 echosa: Well, I figured it out. The (extend) was find, but the function I was calling was not. Fixed that and it fixed the issue.

14:12 However, now I've run into another issue which, I think, will mean I can't use the (extend) and will have to go back to defining the :row-fn in my sql/query calls.

14:12 "The object is already closed."

14:13 By the time I get to where json needs to do it stuff, the DB connection/object is closed, so I can't get the string text value out of the JdbcClob object

14:13 which is really frustrating

14:13 JdbcClob is starting to seem really useless, but that's what my SQL stuff is using for columns defined as type "text"

14:14 Glenjamin: echosa: http://clojure.github.io/java.jdbc/#clojure.java.jdbc/IResultSetReadColumn

14:15 i think that will let you do what you need

14:21 echosa: this clob really seems like more trouble than it's worth

14:22 Glenjamin: the usual assumption is if its in a text/blob field, you don't want to eagerly read it

14:22 because its "big"

14:22 and therefore requires special handling

14:23 ideally you'd want to only read the stream when sending it down the wire as a response - so you never need the whole thing in memory. Although that might be far trickier

14:23 echosa: I understand that, however it seems that special handling needs to take place during the query, which makes sense and is how I had it working before, but keeps me from being able to extend the JSONWriter protocol to do the processing for me.

14:24 Glenjamin: can you just keep the database resource open until the end of the request?

14:25 echosa: instead, I have to add a custom function I found online as the :row-fn for sql/query calls, passing in the row and the clob value to be converted

14:25 hm, maybe? not exactly sure how that would work or how clean it would be

14:30 kristof: Oh

14:30 Does Clojure have finalizers?

14:30 This was something I sometimes missed in Common Lisp, since you could potentially leak file handles and resources because GC is so arbitrary

14:31 bbloom: kristof: java has finalizers, yes

14:31 kristof: Ok

14:31 Is there any clojure-interface to that or do you have to use the interop?

14:33 bbloom: kristof: i could be wrong, but i don't think overriding finalize is exposed at the CLJ level. you need to write a java class & use that

14:33 somebody else may correct me if i'm wrong

14:33 but it's definitely a host-only feature, since javascript doesn't have finalizers, for example

14:34 kristof: Ah, alright

14:34 bbloom: it's pretty rare you need finalizers for cleanup though, unless you're wrapping something native/external, b/c everything in the java base class library already has finalizers for managing external resources

14:34 kristof: Oh, my Java is lacking, so I didn't know that

14:34 bbloom: kristof: see also ##(doc with-open) for deterministic cleanup

14:34 lazybot: ⇒ "Macro ([bindings & body]); bindings => [name init ...] Evaluates body in a try expression with names bound to the values of the inits, and a finally clause that calls (.close name) on each name in reverse order."

14:35 echosa: fuck it, I'm going back to the :row-fn solution. I can't get anything else to work.

14:35 kristof: bbloom: Right, but with-*** macros are good for when only one body of code is accessing a resource, but sometimes you need to keep the resource open for many different functions, potentially

14:36 and then close when they're all out of scope. Which is the point of finalizers, of course, which ties resource deallocation to the object instead of the accessing functions

14:36 gfredericks: huh; I just tried to do a finalizer and it looks like it was called twice

14:36 kristof: But yes, I suppose I'll learn more Java :)

14:36 gfredericks: then I looked at the docs and it said they're never called twice o_O

14:36 bbloom: kristof: i'm quite familiar with the problems, just trying to let you know what tools are available

14:37 gfredericks: yeah, sooo turns out they are never called twice... unless they wind up keeping the object aline

14:37 alive*

14:37 gfredericks: a pointer to the object might escape during finalization, i dunno.. say to *1 in your repl or something like that :-P

14:37 gfredericks: bbloom: *1 isn't the case here

14:37 yeah it's consistently called twice

14:37 kristof: bbloom: Oh, alright. :) So the answer is that the JVM is going to do finalizing automatically for a lot of common resources, and if it doesn't then I can simply write a Java class.

14:37 bbloom: gfredericks: i've seen taht for sure

14:37 gfredericks: I put the thing in a var and then redef the var

14:37 I'll try making it a local

14:38 still twice

14:38 I did (let [x (reify ...)] "not using x")

14:38 maybe something weird about the clojure compiler

14:39 bbloom: kristof: yes. or use a custom scheme such as a ref count or something like that

14:39 kristof: gfredericks: there is also a finalization queue thinggie i don't know much about

14:40 hyPiRion: gfredericks: It's because Clojure is twice as good as java

14:40 bbloom: gfredericks: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/ref/ReferenceQueue.html

14:41 gfredericks: are you using reify or something?

14:41 hyPiRion: bbloom: gfredericks| I did (let [x (reify ...)] "not using x")

14:43 bbloom: there was something about with-meta too at some point

14:43 oooh yeah

14:44 gfredericks: I'll try a deftype

14:44 bbloom: ,(instance? clojure.lang.IObj (reify))

14:44 clojurebot: true

14:44 bbloom: reify creates an object, then promptly creates another one with metadata on it :-/

14:45 gfredericks: actually let me log the object id

14:45 bbloom: good thinking

14:46 gfredericks: yeah two different objects

14:46 good ole' reify

14:47 yep just once with deftype

14:47 mercwithamouth: hmm what's the purpose of using 'declare'?

14:47 gfredericks: mercwithamouth: referencing things before defining them

14:47 bbloom: mercwithamouth: lets you definite mutually recursive top-level functions

14:48 mercwithamouth: declare creates a mutable Var object but doesn't initialize it like def does

14:48 mercwithamouth: o_O

14:49 gfredericks: clojure clojure mutable clojure redefine mutate clojure clojure

14:49 mercwithamouth: https://github.com/ckirkendall/chatter-box/blob/master/src/client/chatter_box/chat_view_component.cljs like line 19

14:49 * mercwithamouth writes down 'mutually recursive top-levelfunctions'

14:50 bbloom: mercwithamouth: that's just sloppiness actually

14:50 steerio: let me think up an easy example for you

14:50 bbloom: mercwithamouth: somebody wrote the functions in a haphazard order & then added a declare to the top to let them use things before they were defined

14:50 mercwithamouth: bbloom: the example i showed? yeah it didn't seem beneficial to me

14:51 bbloom: mercwithamouth: yeah, you can just re-order that file to be def-before-use and the declare will go away

14:51 mercwithamouth: ahh so if you do that...you don't have to worry about what order your functions are?

14:51 steerio: it's _not_ for that

14:51 :)

14:51 i mean what you say is technically true

14:51 bbloom: lol thanks steerio i was trying to figure out how to say that

14:51 steerio: but let's say your function "foo" calls "bar" at some point, which calls "baz", which in turn uses "foo"

14:51 there would be no right order without using declare

14:52 mercwithamouth: lol well thank you for stopping me before before i mapped that usage to my mind =P

14:52 steerio: i see

14:52 ok that makes sense.

14:53 bbloom: mercwithamouth: i basically only ever use it when i have some tree traversal & there is like a top-level traverse function & all the other functions need to call it, but it can't be defined until all the other functions exist

14:53 steerio: but in this example, using declare on exactly one function's var is enough

14:54 mercwithamouth: bbloom: i gotcha

14:54 useful...

14:55 steerio: i used it in other situations but it's definitely rarely needed

15:08 mercwithamouth: hrmm now is anyone here awesome as far as enfocus is concerned?

15:11 Raynes: ~anyone

15:11 clojurebot: Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."

15:12 mercwithamouth: Raynes: lol i was waiting for that =P

15:12 Raynes: Sorry <3

15:13 mercwithamouth: i'll save it for tomorrow when I can form intelligent questions. i'm trying to figure out how to get defsnippet to work...and i have quite a few other things i'd like to try

15:27 dubonlin: hi all... I've got a question about things evaluating to themselves in clojure. Here it says that "Strings, numbers, characters, true, false, nil and keywords evaluate to themselves." http://clojure.org/evaluation

15:27 And basically every single book and blog and whatnots about Clojure repeats this.

15:27 TEttinger: dubonlin, yeah. for example...

15:27 ,(+ 1 2)

15:27 clojurebot: 3

15:27 TEttinger: ,1

15:27 clojurebot: 1

15:27 dubonlin: Yes, I know that

15:27 My question is: what about regexp?

15:28 TEttinger: hm

15:28 dubonlin: don't they also evaluate to themselves?

15:28 TEttinger: ,#"/s+"

15:28 clojurebot: #"/s+"

15:28 TEttinger: ,#"\s+"

15:28 clojurebot: #"\s+"

15:28 TEttinger: interesting

15:28 they actually evaluate to a pattern IIRC

15:28 dubonlin: Isn't that "missing" from that page?

15:29 TEttinger: ,(class #"\s+")

15:29 clojurebot: java.util.regex.Pattern

15:29 dubonlin: ,(class (eval #"\s+"))

15:29 clojurebot: java.util.regex.Pattern

15:29 TEttinger: so there you go, they evaluate to something that could be construed as being different from the literal

15:30 ddima: dubonlin: i think its mentioned in the doc-page of 're-pattern'

15:31 dubonlin: TEttinger: and so it's the REPL which knows how to print the Pattern? And what it prints happens to look like the literal?

15:31 ddima: hm, its not. well.

15:31 TEttinger: I'm guessing that, dubonlin

15:31 ,(java.util.regex.Pattern.)

15:31 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class java.util.regex.Pattern, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>

15:31 TEttinger: ,(java.util.regex.Pattern. "\s+")

15:31 clojurebot: #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported escape character: \s>

15:31 hyPiRion: dubonlin: Regexes doesn't evaluate to themselves because you cannot compare them

15:33 ddima: a little confused, my repl doesnt print the pattern "string" itself when evaluated

15:33 more like #<user$eval151$fn__152 user$eval151$fn__152@2b22a363>

15:35 sandbags: Is there a way to do a "global require"? I'm using print-foo for debugging and would rather not have to require it in every file

15:36 joegallo: sandbags: https://code.google.com/p/clj-nstools/

15:36 ddima: sandbags: you could "monkey patch" clojure.core ;)

15:38 sandbags: hrmm... thanks for the suggestions ;-)

15:38 Morgawr: joegallo: that's pretty cool, thanks for sharing

15:38 `cbp: you could probably make leiningen do that?

15:38 ddima: its not really something you shoud want to do imho

15:38 joegallo: i'm actually with ddima on this one

15:38 `cbp: maybe bind one of the less used dynamic vars to your fn :-D

15:38 sandbags: yes i was hoping for something built in

15:38 joegallo: but, yeah, sure, if you must do it, then there's this thing over here

15:38 and may god have mercy on your soul

15:38 sandbags: or in lein

15:39 ddima: joegallo: well, at first it will be awesome, and then two months later... world of hurt ;)

15:39 joegallo: yup

15:39 sandbags: ah well, it's not such a big deal, i am just lazy

15:39 and easily irritated by such things :)

15:40 `cbp: maybe use slamhound to write your ns declarations

15:41 sandbags: thing is, if i have to modify my ns declarations that defeats the purpose of not having to modify my ns declarations :)

15:42 technomancy: IMO that belongs in your editor rather than your project config

15:42 gtrak: cemerick: working autodoc on a cljs analyzer dump :-) http://i.imgur.com/BrAc61U.png?1 Will work on an writing up the issue for cljsbuild.

15:42 technomancy: it should be an nrepl -op

15:42 `cbp: i thought the purpose was to be lazy

15:42 technomancy: then there's no way it can pollute your source accidentally

15:42 cemerick: gtrak: sweet

15:42 Morgawr: yeah I agree with ddima, I wouldn't want to use something as obfuscate as hiding namespace inclusion, just thought joegallo's link was still cool (To show stuff you can do with Clojure)

15:42 sandbags: technomancy: yes that makes sense to me

15:43 * Morgawr is late to the conversation

15:44 sandbags: anyone used jamii's strucjure library?

15:44 https://github.com/jamii/strucjure

15:49 technomancy: sandbags: sorry, I should have mentioned that it's not reasonably easy to implement right now

15:50 rurumate: ##java has 386 nicks, #clojure 684 8o

15:50 technomancy: just that's the way it "should" be

15:50 sandbags: technomancy: yes that's what i understood you to mean :)

15:50 technomancy: working on it though

15:51 sandbags: better yet

15:52 dubonlin: I still don't get it.

15:52 ,(eval (eval 3))

15:52 clojurebot: 3

15:52 dubonlin: ,(eval (eval #"[0-9]"))

15:52 clojurebot: #"[0-9]"

15:52 dubonlin: so regexp don't eval to themselves but they eval to something that evals to itself?

15:54 hyPiRion: dubonlin: Well, sort of

15:55 arohner: has anyone gotten a datomic peer running on heroku to connect to a cloudformation transactor? How does authentication work?

15:56 hyPiRion: regexes prints a version of themselves which gives the exact same semantics as the original one

15:56 arohner: I have a tiny app that I'd like to avoid starting another AWS instance for

15:56 ddima: ohdamn, when i asked why my repl didn't behave the same way, my muscle memory actually typed #(" instead of just #". I should put the wine aside ;)

15:59 dubonlin: ddima: ^ ^

16:00 gfredericks: ,(nth (iterate eval 42) 1000)

16:00 clojurebot: 42

16:00 gfredericks: wait since when does clojurebot support eval?

16:00 &(eval 42)

16:00 lazybot: java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! eval is bad!

16:00 gfredericks: ,(def foo 12)

16:00 clojurebot: #'sandbox/foo

16:00 gfredericks: ,(System/exit 1)

16:00 clojurebot: #<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>

16:00 TEttinger: haha

16:00 gfredericks: ,(eval '(System/exit 1))

16:00 clojurebot: #<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>

16:00 TEttinger: nice try gf3

16:00 gfredericks

16:00 gfredericks: hooray

16:01 ,eval

16:01 clojurebot: #<core$eval clojure.core$eval@c1f463>

16:01 gfredericks: I always found it odd that eval bots didn't support eval

16:02 ,(alter-var-root #'eval (constantly identity))

16:02 clojurebot: #<core$identity clojure.core$identity@153bf5b>

16:02 gfredericks: ,(eval 'foo)

16:02 clojurebot: (eval (quote foo))

16:02 gfredericks: oops I broke it

16:03 ,(+ 1 2 3)

16:03 clojurebot: (+ 1 2 3)

16:03 dubonlin: ,(eval (eval (re-pattern "\\d+"))) ; so a java.util.regex.Pattern evals to itself?

16:03 clojurebot: (eval (eval (re-pattern "\\d+")))

16:03 dubonlin: erf

16:04 gfredericks: thanks for breaking the bot ^ ^

16:04 gfredericks: now fix it :)

16:05 abaker: so for getting into using EDN as a local config file - looks like spit/pr-str and slurp/read-string is that the idiomatic way of doing it?

16:05 gcganley: (def life 42)

16:06 abaker: or is there an edn library out there that's more commonly used for managing config files

16:06 hyPiRion: dubonlin: (eval (eval x)) always return x, unless it is a seq or list

16:06 bja_: abaker, I use environ

16:07 abaker: bja_: that looks like it abstracts environment variable access across shell env, JVM properties, and lein.. I was thinking more of reading a config file like, ~/.my-app-config, where the file was EDN and could very quickly read/write it out

16:08 bja_: what kind of config do you need that is more complicated than strings and ints?

16:08 abaker: lists of stuff, some stuff with their own lists of properties, etc

16:09 bja_: then I don't really know of anything in general use, spit/slurp would be my solution

16:09 dubonlin: hyPiRion: thanks a lot, copy/pasting all these explanation down : )

16:10 abaker: ok thanks

16:10 lots of innovation compels me to ask what the latest thoughts are ;)

16:11 steerio: environ does support vectors, maps, etc.

16:12 through profiles

16:12 https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/doc/PROFILES.md

16:13 abaker: thanks

16:14 bja_: steerio, that requires you to have lein around when you're in prod thought right?

16:14 abaker: related EDN question - is there a standard Java library out there for exposing non-clj code via EDN data structures (e.g. adding an EDN serializer to a web service) ?

16:14 bja_: i.e. you can't just uberjar and ship an example properties file or a shell file to be sourced and integrated in your ops platform?

16:15 abaker: ah looks like there is: https://github.com/bpsm/edn-java

16:17 bja_: abaker, you could always write a wrapper in clojure and AOT it

16:17 around something proven like tools.reader

16:18 gtrak: bja_: clojure's a little heavy to be used for just one thing like that, for most java proejcts

16:19 technomancy: bja_: you can use environ without lein; no problem

16:19 whatever daemonization tool you use just gets pointed at a config file containing k=v stuff

16:20 bja_: technomancy, I know that. the question was relating to if you use advanced data structures in a lein profile for environ, it probably wouldn't also work with environment variables or properties files

16:20 technomancy: bja_: oh right; didn't read that far back =)

16:20 bja: yes, environment variables aren't good for nested config; try carica for that

16:23 bja_: I wish I had access to the config wrapper I wrote over environ at my last job. I liked being able to specify config settings with defaults in a single place (foo.config) and then reference them throughout the project in a sane manner

16:23 it was nice being able to look at one place and know all the settings and all the defaults

16:23 technomancy: carica gets you that

16:24 bja_: carica doesn't load stuff via environment variable though does it?

16:25 technomancy: no, just maps on disk

16:25 bja_: it seems to let you override stuff, so you could easily build a function/macro that uses environ to override stuff while providing sane defaults

16:25 gfredericks: ,(+ 1 2)

16:25 clojurebot: 3

16:25 gfredericks: ,(eval (Object.))

16:25 clojurebot: #<Object java.lang.Object@e1b565>

16:26 technomancy: bja_: oh yeah; that's practically a must with environ--not being able to change config without restarting is terribad

16:28 bja_: I used my system to implement config changes via the server's http interface if you had the right credentials

16:28 made it easy for the ops guys

16:29 also let them do things like use curl to find out system state

16:29 makes debugging easier

16:29 gfredericks: I'm digging through five year old files to figure out what to keep; just found a repo called "meajure" with a bunch of php in it o_O

16:29 gf3: TEttinger: WHAT DID I DO!?!?

16:29 oh gfredericks

16:29 rude

16:29 TEttinger: sorry

16:29 pcn: Oh, that's a sonian project

16:29 gfredericks: gf3: yeah nice try

16:29 amalloy: (inc gfredericks)

16:29 lazybot: ⇒ 35

16:30 gfredericks: gf3: fix all my other mistakes too

16:30 gf3: ugh

16:30 technomancy: more like meaculpa

16:32 gfredericks: oh I think it was a mediawiki install for tracking stuff _about_ a project called "meajure"

16:32 phew

16:32 ddima: there should totlally be a package named "meaculpa"

16:32 what could it be? hmm.

16:32 probably something for ignoring failing tests, like to good old -DskipTests

16:37 sorry if i broke any conversational thread, im just not funny ;)

16:37 gfredericks: ooh I even found some stuff from before I knew how to do version control

16:38 files name foo.MMDDYY

16:39 a python file that contains one line: def zToQ(i,

16:41 arohner: If I have s3-wagon-private set up, can I resolve deps 'normally', through central + clojars, then upload everything to my private s3 repo?

16:50 gtrak: what emacs bits end up calling the rizt nrepl complete middlewares?

16:50 ritz*, rather.

16:53 nrepl-ritz, I'm guessing

16:58 logic_prog: in core.async, is there a way to do _rate limited_ channels ?

17:01 * gfredericks got some weird results when googling "edn c"

17:01 dnolen: logic_prog: it's not difficult to make a throttle chan

17:02 logic_prog: dnolen: something that requires taking a (timeout 10ms)

17:02 before every [msg (<! ...) ] ...

17:02 dnolen: logic_prog: yes a throttle channel

17:02 logic_prog: i.e. something like (let [_ (<! (timeout limit)) \n msg (<! ... )] ... ) ?

17:02 dnolen: logic_prog: it worth figuring out how to write it yourself, it's pretty informative

17:08 grandy: hello, just curious if clojurescript supports aspect oriented constraints?

17:13 dnolen: grandy: it probably can with some work

17:13 grandy: dnolen: cool

17:18 logic_prog: if a channel is full, and multiple sources do (>! ) on the channel, is it fifo ?

17:20 dnolen: logic_prog: yes unless you use a dropping or sliding buffer

17:20 Kaini1123: I am learning Clojure and wrote a program that can execute WHILE-programs (usage example: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8376364 ) Code: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8377244 I need some feedback: Is this code ugly or doing not idiomatic things? How can I make this code "better" (more Clojure-style)?

17:31 tbaldridge: is there any way at all to gen a class that inherits an abstract class, while at the repl?

17:31 besides proxy that is.

17:33 amalloy: Kaini1123: looks pretty good to me, with a few small issues

17:33 hyPiRion: Kaini1123: It's a very long "snippet", but most things look fine by me. Only thing I'd do different is to make the execute-statement to a multimethod

17:34 amalloy: eg, execute-statements should just be (reduce execute-statement vars code)

17:35 and line 58, read-variables, should be using the same into/{} as ask-variables is - apply hashmap mapcat is not very nice

17:35 Kaini1123: hyPiRion, I think 170 lines is ok for this kind of problem, multimethod, I'll look into that

17:36 amalloy, looks like I didn't know about into/{} when I wrote this method :)

17:37 hyPiRion: Kaini1123: yeah, it's fine for the problem, but people on IRC would probably not be as tempted to look at it

17:38 That's what I meant

17:40 Kaini1123: probably true, but you two did

17:40 however thanks for the feedback

17:45 steerio: bja_: yes, that's right about leiningen. sorry, got distracted.

17:45 i mean about environ vs leiningen

17:53 rhg135: hello *

17:54 https://www.refheap.com/22781 anybody got an idea why that inner loop isn't running untiul AFTER the client disconnects?

17:55 according to a trace i know that but it doesn't help much

17:56 it worked a few moments ago but i can't recall what i changed

17:58 justin_smith: is accept-seq both lazy and blocking?

17:58 rhg135: hmm

17:58 i think

17:58 * rhg135 checks javadoc

17:59 justin_smith: also, are you certain that the io/writer flushes on newline?

17:59 you may need to explicitly flush

17:59 rhg135: now

17:59 no*

17:59 hence why i manually flush

17:59 * rhg135 has forgot before

18:00 justin_smith: ahh, so jim/write! flushes?

18:00 rhg135: yup

18:00 justin_smith: oh and sorry, now I see that the def of accept-seq is right there

18:01 rhg135: i think the server socket doesn't get created until it's closed

18:01 that's weird

18:01 FatsDT: Why doesn't (group-by .isDirectory (.listFiles (clojure.java.io/file "."))) work?

18:01 justin_smith: that is weird

18:01 TEttinger: hm, any ideas why an uberjar would be far slower at runtime than running with lein run ? I have a bunch of resources in the project's root/resources , if that helps

18:01 justin_smith: FatsDT: .isDirectory is not callable

18:01 rhg135: i thought clojure wasn't that lazy

18:01 justin_smith: it is a method

18:02 FatsDT: to group-by you need something callable, try #(.isDirectory %)

18:02 TEttinger: or memoize

18:02 ,(doc memoize)

18:02 clojurebot: "([f]); Returns a memoized version of a referentially transparent function. The memoized version of the function keeps a cache of the mapping from arguments to results and, when calls with the same arguments are repeated often, has higher performance at the expense of higher memory use."

18:02 TEttinger: err that wasn't it

18:02 ,(doc memfn)

18:02 clojurebot: "([name & args]); Expands into code that creates a fn that expects to be passed an object and any args and calls the named instance method on the object passing the args. Use when you want to treat a Java method as a first-class fn. name may be type-hinted with the method receiver's type in order to avoid reflective calls."

18:03 FatsDT: justin_smith: Thank you!

18:03 justin_smith: TEttinger: memfn is depricated, I think

18:05 bbloom: justin_smith: eh, i wouldn't say "deprecated" as if there were anythign wrong with it

18:05 it's just not all that useful any more now that we have the #() syntax

18:07 rhg135: nope

18:07 i tried returning the socket

18:07 still doesn't run

18:16 mrhanky: folks, i need some hint on using core.async with clojurescript

18:17 rhg135: mrhanky, elaborate

18:19 mrhanky: i have a piece of code, it runs a repl with print and read-line on clojure. i now want to run this with clojurescript on a webpage. this code starts a loop and freezes the rest of my webpage. how can i run this piece of code async so i wont freeze my browser and i'm able to block it when it calls my defined read-line?

18:19 https://www.refheap.com/22782

18:19 the code itself runs just fine, but freezes the browser

18:19 i just dont get it how to make it async

18:24 rhg135: mrhanky, tbh i'm rather confused by all this async stuff too

18:24 mrhanky: glad i'm not the only one :)

18:24 * rhg135 spent too much time in js land

18:24 * rhg135 *shudders*

18:24 rhg135: all the callbacks

18:26 logic_prog: is there any high performnace logging frameworks for clojure? I want things on the orer of 1000 ops / second

18:28 pcn: What does logging mean?

18:28 Do you mean like a database that does mvcc for fast writes, or do you mean writes messages to a file?

18:29 logic_prog: pcn: I have a data structure, I am doing lots of (assoc obj ...) 's to it

18:29 err, (assoc-in obj keys value) ...

18:29 and I want to log all these [keys value] pairs

18:30 so I can "replay" the datastructure"

18:32 rhg135: another small question

18:32 hyPiRion: logic_prog: When do you want to read the data? Is there any need to consider concurrency?

18:32 rhg135: how do you apply a js method on a iseq

18:33 ?

18:33 bacon1989: Hi, so I want to follow the clojureone tutorial, so I can get a better idea on how to make a website using clojure, but it doesn't seem to be working

18:33 for this site http://clojurescriptone.com/

18:33 logic_prog: hyPiRion: I don't need to support concurrency, there's one writer, and many readers

18:33 hyPiRion: what are my options for "how do you want to read the data?"

18:33 bacon1989: it suggests to type lein bootstrap, which doesn't seem to be an actual command

18:34 is the tutorial possibly out of date?

18:35 hyPiRion: logic_prog: Well, you could either read it after the operations have been done, or while the operations are performed. If you do it while the operations are performed, you may either want a snapshot or don't care about such a snapshot

18:37 If you don't need a snapshot, I recommend to just use an ArrayList. It has effectively no time overhead.

18:38 michaniskin: bacon1989: I am not sure about cljs1, but another option is http://hoplon.io

18:39 bacon1989: the "getting started" page has the practical info there

18:39 bacon1989: and http://github.com/tailrecursion/hoplon-demos <-- demo apps

18:39 bacon1989: michaniskin: ok thanks, I'll check it out

18:40 michaniskin: bacon1989: you can ask questions in #hoplon if you run into problems

18:47 steerio: i wonder why it takes 1.5 seconds to require clj-http

18:48 logic_prog: what hapened to fleetdb ?

18:49 is there any other database implemente din pure java

18:50 steerio: cassandra, neo4j? :)

18:52 justin_smith: for sql there is h2 (has in-memory and on-disk storage options)

18:53 eevar_: there's also Derby

18:55 rhg135: logic_prog, h2

18:55 ohh

18:56 dat damn lag

18:56 logic_prog: err, sorry

18:56 by "pure java", I meant "pure clj"

18:56 rhg135: ohhhhhhh

18:57 eevar_: logic_prog: in other words you're asking for Datomic?

18:57 logic_prog: eevar_ : hmm

18:58 I didn't get a Christmas gift.

18:58 Can someone open source datomic and we'll call it even?

19:14 is there a way to tell clojure/split to "create the directorie structure if they don't exist" ? i.e. (spit "foo/bar/cat/test.txt" ...) will create direcotires foo/, foo/bar, foo/bar/cat if they don't alreay exist

19:15 Tolstoy: logic_prog: something like (.mkdirs (.getParentFile (as-file "foo/bar/whatever.txt")))

19:17 logic_prog: Tolstoy: nice, thanks

19:19 Tolstoy: logic_prog: Raynes has a nice little collection of file related convenience functions over at: https://github.com/Raynes/fs if you don't mind an extra dependency.

19:59 bitemyapp: arrdem: bloody steak and coffee might be the optimal way to start a day.

20:04 Raynes: bitemyapp: I've always been fond of looking in the mirror and sobbing, myself.

20:10 bitemyapp: Raynes: followed by...ADVENTURE?!

20:10 Raynes: Always

20:10 bitemyapp: Raynes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EWDMHwZ064

20:40 TEttinger: hm, does anyone know a way to make an uberjar run with specific JVM options (namely '-server') when double-clicked?

20:40 michaniskin: TEttinger: unix or windows?

20:41 TEttinger: windows, but maybe also linux/mac OS X

20:41 (OS X versions that don't support Java 7)

20:41 michaniskin: oh, dunno then, sorry

20:41 TEttinger: michaniskin, were you going to suggest a shell script

20:41 ?

20:42 michaniskin: JAR files can have arbitrary trash at the beginning of the file

20:42 justin_smith: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1667830/running-a-jar-file-without-directly-calling-java

20:42 michaniskin: including a shebang and shell command like `java -server -jar "$0"`

20:42 hyPiRion: make the program check its input arguments, and if none, make it call itself with specified arguments and shutdown

20:43 justin_smith: TEttinger: see second answer using cat (for linux at least)

20:43 hyPiRion: lazybot uses this for its --background startup, see https://github.com/flatland/lazybot/blob/master/src/lazybot/run.clj

20:44 justin_smith: clojure is also shebang compatible

20:44 #! is a comment until end of line

20:45 michaniskin: justin_smith: wow, i didn't know that, awesome

20:46 ,(read-string "#! asdf\n[1 2]")

20:46 clojurebot: [1 2]

20:46 justin_smith: hrm...

20:47 mrhanky: can anybody tell me why this is not run async? i call start by js console after page load: https://www.refheap.com/22783

20:47 justin_smith: michaniskin: oh, wait, I thought that wasn't working, I missed the \n :)

20:48 but yeah, that shows it working as expected

20:48 noonian: its either because you aren't calling any async operations or because of the indentation :P

20:48 TEttinger: wait hyPiRion... that solution won't work if Java isn't on the PATH will it?

20:49 hiredman: zip files (which jars are) can also contain abitrary stuff at the begining

20:49 mrhanky: noonian, i dont really understand this async stuff, i'm trying the whole day now with no result :/

20:49 hiredman: so you can prepend a shell script

20:49 justin_smith: hiredman: yeah, that is what the cat solution in the SO link above does

20:51 hiredman: I use shebang clojure scripts a lot

20:52 I have an uberjar of pomegranate on a public url on s3, so the first thing I do in the script is load that, then use pomegranate to load the rest of the deps I want

20:52 noonian: mrhanky: what are you trying to do asynchronouslu?

20:53 hiredman: https://gist.github.com/hiredman/6664075 makes a youtube playlist from the list of strangeloop music alex posted after the conference

20:53 justin_smith: hiredman: wow, cool

20:55 hiredman: I have a home automation project that is a single file ring app using the same pattern

20:55 mrhanky: noonian, the (println "Consize returns ...), it runs a another piece of code and prints the result at the end of execution. this can take some seconds. i'm using clojurescript so calling the start function freezes my browser until ready

20:58 TEttinger: hyPiRion, I think that Java by default for non-JDK installs does not add the java executable to PATH on windows

20:59 so would exec still work?

21:02 justin_smith: TEttinger: what does double clicking a regular jar do under windows?

21:02 noonian: mrhanky: you example might work if you use >! instead of put!

21:03 TEttinger: justin_smith, I assumed it used the OS to associate a filetype with a default command

21:03 which could use an absolute path

21:03 mrhanky: noonian, i dont use put!

21:03 noonian: mrhanky: here's a version where I broke out the function into a helper: https://www.refheap.com/22784

21:04 sorry, my bad heh

21:05 basically, the go block isn't going to make normal synchronous code run in the background or anything, but it does make the blocking channel operations not block the thread if they are used inside a go block

21:06 mrhanky: it might be easier to start with a simpler example, without the (VM ...) stuff

21:12 mrhanky: noonian, are there any resources you can recommend on this topic?

21:16 noonian: mrhanky: i've just started with core.async myself, but i think this video by David Nolen gives a pretty good introduction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhxcGGeh5ho

21:22 mrhanky: noonian, a bit too long for this night, but i'll boomark and watch tomorrow, thanks

21:23 noonian: np, have fun

21:26 Tolstoy: mrhanky: Looking at your refheap, and removing the comments, the reason it doesn't block is 1) because you're in a go block (which doesn't block), and because you're use <! (println...) and println isn't a queie.

21:26 Er, queue.

22:44 logic_prog: is there any database that allows efficient _append_ operations?

22:47 hiredman: is https://github.com/hiredman/Amontillado/blob/master/src/amontillado/core.clj complete?

22:47 I was searching for "bitcask clojure"

22:47 hiredman: and I got your github repo above

23:50 kanja: I played around with clojure a few years ago - I use emacs so I had slime/swank. Are things the same, or is there a new toolset to use?

23:51 Tolstoy: kanja: https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider

23:52 kanja: But the plugins for eclipse, intellij are reasonably mature, and there's LightTable.

23:53 kanja: @Tolstoy LightTable looks pretty cool and the recent opensource-ing of it is super awesome

23:53 I could see trying that out

23:53 but I'm pretty baked into emacs

23:54 I do a significant amount of python/javascript development in it

23:54 Tolstoy: At this point, it's not better than Emacs, IMHO, if you're already Emacs fluent.

23:54 kanja: ah k

23:55 @Tolstoy I'm going to try cider then, thanks!

23:55 Tolstoy: No prob. ;)

23:56 kanja: Actually another question :) I want to play around with cloact - what's a good entry point for http dev? pedestal?

23:59 Tolstoy: Personally, I think pedestal is a bit heavyweight and opinionated.

23:59 For server side, I'd use compojure.

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