#clojure log - Nov 07 2013

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0:00 technomancy: uvtc: "I have to give this a name, but I can't be bothered to think of a good name for it" is how I read it

0:00 bitemyapp: ,(type (list* 1 (list* 0 ())))

0:00 clojurebot: clojure.lang.Cons

0:00 bitemyapp: ,(list* 1 (list* 0 ()))

0:00 clojurebot: (1 0)

0:00 technomancy: uvtc: or "internal implementation detail; don't use this directly"

0:00 bitemyapp: ,(list 0 1 2 3)

0:00 clojurebot: (0 1 2 3)

0:00 bitemyapp: ,(type (list 0 1 2 3))

0:00 clojurebot: clojure.lang.PersistentList

0:00 bitemyapp: ,(list* 0 1 2 3) ;; no dice grandma, only recursive conses

0:00 clojurebot: #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>

0:00 bitemyapp: uvtc: ^^ primitive. list* is part of the bootstrap.

0:01 logic_prog: is there an idiomatic way to call clojure.edn/read on a filestream until it htis eof, and stores all objects read?

0:01 uvtc: bitemyapp, technomancy : nice, thanks. :)

0:01 seangrove: bitemyapp: Works like a charm, thank you!

0:01 muhoo: logic_prog: (->> "/file/path" slurp clojure.edn/read-string) ?

0:01 bitemyapp: seangrove: coolio. Doubtless there are further gaps in the coverage for JDBC (Korma should be comprehensive), but if you run into anything else let me know.

0:01 I took the opportunity to refactor the code too.

0:02 logic_prog: muhoo: that only raeds first object

0:02 if there is say, 3 defs in a file, that approach only raeds the first

0:02 muhoo: logic_prog: oh. hmm, i saw something in day-of-datomic that did that

0:02 it was used for database migration/schema ensuring

0:02 logic_prog: muhoo: any chance you can look it up? :-)

0:02 muhoo: there's also a good chance that i wrote something to do that too, and don't remember it :-/

0:03 logic_prog: hmm, looking now

0:04 bitemyapp: so much prettier *_* https://github.com/bitemyapp/blackwater/blob/master/src/black/water/jdbc.clj

0:05 technomancy: https://github.com/bitemyapp/blackwater/blob/master/src/black/water/jdbc.clj look at what your library has helped me to do :)

0:06 technomancy: cool beans

0:06 muhoo: logic_prog: hahaha (->> "/file/foo.edn" slurp (#(str "[" % "]")) clojure.edn/read-string)

0:07 bitemyapp: muhoo: noice.

0:07 muhoo: *cough* *hack*

0:07 bitemyapp: muhoo: did you see that parseEval Scala thing that went around recently?

0:07 muhoo: bitemyapp: naw, i don't scala

0:08 bitemyapp: dude implemented SKI in terms of the parser behavior and was able to induce a stack overflow with 9 characters of input.

0:08 pretty sweet.

0:08 but don't tell a Scala user that syntax is a bad idea, no sirree.

0:08 muhoo: :(){:|:& };:

0:08 bash$ :(){:|:& };:

0:08 hilarity ensues

0:09 bitemyapp: oldest prank in the book,

0:09 actually it was invented before books.

0:09 logic_prog: muhoo: lol; you win

0:09 bitemyapp: arrdem: alright, I managed to release a new version of one of my libraries. what are you up to?

0:10 I'm going to start, ping me if you come up for air :)

0:11 muhoo: i have vague memories of sitting around a lab, and ssh'ing in to other machines in the lab, and doign "(eject /dev/cdrom0; sleep 1; eject -t /dev/cdrom0)" or similar

0:12 just to watch the guys sitting at those machines go "wtf???"

0:12 technomancy: my favourite was to take a solitaire screenshot when you're one move away from winning and make it the desktop background

0:13 muhoo: technomancy: nice

0:14 arrdem: bitemyapp: blerg. still around?

0:14 bitemyapp: arrdem: yarr

0:14 arrdem: bitemyapp: that's my line Q_Q

0:14 bitemyapp: arrdem: get in mumbur

0:14 arrdem: bitemyapp: <plug> https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/pull/3

0:14 bitemyapp: trying to steal my buddy's box

0:15 muhoo: technomancy: then there's also fun with xwindows, $DISPLAY, xauth, and ssh. like popping up pr0n on someone's screen while they're in the middle of debugging

0:16 ah, youth

0:16 technomancy: kids these days have no imagination

0:16 arrdem: muhoo: if they've `xhost +`'d they deserve whatever they get.

0:16 technomancy: when they want to mess with people they just do stuff like invent node.js

0:17 which is actually maybe more impressive, whatever

0:18 I mean as a troll

0:22 Raynes: $last

0:22 lazybot: Raynes is listening to: The O'Jays - Imagination [Imagination]

0:22 Raynes: technomancy: ^

0:22 muhoo: $last

0:22 lazybot: muhoo last listened to: Limp Bizkit - Just Like This [Significant Other]

0:22 Raynes: Don't be telling lies now.

0:22 muhoo: hahahaa!!!!

0:22 lazybot: YOU LIE

0:22 marcopolo2: slast

0:22 :(

0:22 muhoo: i have never, ever, in my life, listened to limp bizkit. i resent the accusation.

0:23 lazybot: i challenge you. pistols at dawn.

0:23 marcopolo2: woah didn't see the $ read it as an s

0:23 $last

0:23 Raynes: It uses your nickname as your last.fm account. You can supply an argument for another name, or do $assoc <last.fm username>

0:23 lazybot: Couldn't find that user.

0:23 muhoo: there must be someone else with that last.fm account. and he or she has terrible taste, too

0:24 marcopolo2: $assoc drchoc

0:24 $last

0:24 lazybot: Couldn't find that user.

0:24 Raynes: $help assoc

0:24 lazybot: Topic: "assoc" doesn't exist!

0:24 Raynes: $help lfmassoc

0:24 lazybot: Raynes: Associate your nickname with a lastfm username

0:25 Raynes: I lied, guys. It's $lfmassoc. Apologies.

0:25 marcopolo2: $lfmassoc drchoc

0:25 lazybot: Associated your username.

0:25 marcopolo2: $last

0:25 lazybot: marcopolo2 last listened to: Top 250 Hits of 90s - Eagle Eye Cherry - Save Tonight [1998] [Top 250 Hits of 90s]

0:25 marcopolo2: awww yeeaaa

0:25 Raynes: Classy.

0:25 muhoo: arrdem: xhost + s isn't even necessary, if you have root and xauth

0:25 or even if you have the user's login, don't need root. this all from memory, and it's been a while

0:26 arrdem: muhoo: root is pretty hard to come by these days... at least on shared systems

0:26 muhoo: this was in a lab environment.

0:26 i don't remember the specifics, but there were shenanigans, for sure

0:26 arrdem: bitemyapp: my buddy locked his door for some reason. no gaming box tonight.

0:27 bitemyapp: arrdem: damn. oh well. I just clowned the fuck out of a terran. somebody should tell him you're not supposed to trade 1 for 1 with zerg.

0:27 off to LoL then if you're not going to play :)

0:27 arrdem: I didn't know you signed the CA?

0:27 arrdem: bitemyapp: sent mine in last week. maybe a little more ago.

0:28 bitemyapp: arrdem: interesting patch. Think it'll reduce the noise associated with (ann ...) ?

0:29 technomancy: that's not a patch

0:29 arrdem: technomancy: nor is it a moon

0:29 technomancy: it's a pull request, and thus an anathema

0:30 you have failed to abide by the rules of the contribution process; don't let the door hit you on the way out; kthxbai

0:30 ambrosebs: *kicks arrdem*

0:30 arrdem: meh.

0:31 Raynes: ambrosebs: Yo. No. With the violence. Dude.

0:31 arrdem: well sue me for being new to this.

0:31 Raynes: $last

0:31 lazybot: Raynes is listening to: Paramore - Grow Up [Paramore]

0:31 Raynes: ^

0:31 uvtc: Off-topic: speaking of pistols at dawn and interesting patches, anyone else here doing movember?

0:31 Raynes: I bet I have a song title in my library for basically every situation.

0:31 technomancy: arrdem: no, you're being totally reasonable; just messing with you

0:32 it's just not going to get applied that way =\

0:32 arrdem: bitemyapp: that's exaclty the idea. most of the noise of type-annotating my shitty VM of two days ago was (t/ann ...) forms.

0:32 technomancy: is there a different technique I should be using? patch to clojure-dev?

0:33 technomancy: arrdem: if your soul contains the requisite fortitude, jira.

0:33 many are called; few succeed.

0:33 arrdem: lol. that involves me opening a clojure-dev jira account and applying for mail-list agian...

0:33 bitemyapp: arrdem: yeah that stuff drives me nuts too.

0:33 technomancy: arrdem: neat patch though; I like the look of it

0:34 bitemyapp: nathanic: hey liked your stuff on core.typed!

0:34 nathanic: check out arrdem's PR: https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/pull/3/files

0:34 seangrove: arrdem: git format-patch master --stdout > defn_gt_macro.patch, open an issue at http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CTYP and attach it

0:34 bitemyapp: arrdem: and then take a trip to Thailand for the next 2 years.

0:34 because that's ~roughly how long it'll take to get merged :P

0:34 technomancy: arrdem: ancient tomes tell of a path through the mists: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/JIRA+workflow

0:35 seangrove: arrdem: I used to think it was a big deal, really isn't. At least dealing with dnolen anyway.

0:35 arrdem: bitemyapp: lol

0:35 technomancy: Thailand is nice this time of year

0:35 muhoo: he's of the young, fast-moving, githib generatiom

0:35 technomancy: and also other times of year

0:36 muhoo: github even

0:36 technomancy: "guthub" is my preferred typo for that

0:36 muhoo: core clojure patches move at a much more deliberate pace, and by design IIUC

0:37 bitemyapp: yeah to be fair, the other stuff clips along better.

0:37 muhoo: everyone loves to bitch about it tho

0:37 bitemyapp: muhoo: Scala is a good example of what can go wrong when you have open season on the compiler

0:38 muhoo: i'm a debian user, so i;m ok with slow

0:40 ambrosebs: arrdem: the process is to attach a patch to the core.typed Jira.

0:40 arrdem: but PR is great for reviews

0:40 arrdem: I figured I'd wait until you got your CA in until we worried about that :)

0:40 technomancy: ambrosebs: sorry, I know you don't deserve this snark; you don't have anything to do with it.

0:41 arrdem: should I be expecting a confirm from someone invoved with Core that my CA's been recieved?

0:41 ambrosebs: technomancy: :)

0:41 technomancy: keep complaining, perhaps it might change one day :)

0:42 seangrove: arrdem: Yeah, the site will be updated at the very least

0:42 technomancy: ambrosebs: heh; I won't tell anyone you said that.

0:42 ambrosebs: technomancy: :D

0:42 seangrove: arrdem: Wehn your name is on here, your patches can be accepted http://clojure.org/contributing

0:43 arrdem: Looks like you're on there already, no?

0:43 arrdem: seangrove: yep I am :D

0:44 ambrosebs: arrdem: nice. open a ticket here http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CTYP

0:44 arrdem: ambrosebs: already done.

0:44 ambrosebs: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CTYP-92

0:44 ambrosebs: arrdem: great.

0:45 * arrdem coulda picked a better patch name

0:45 ambrosebs: arrdem: I honestly don't care, this isn't clojure.core :)

0:46 arrdem: ambrosebs: haha yeah I know. I was stressing over commit messages, then did a git log and had a laugh at yours.

0:46 ambrosebs: arrdem: lots of good reading there

0:47 arrdem: ambrosebs: changelog... changelog... update changelog....

0:48 ambrosebs: arrdem: "lots of stuff, I don't know how to use git and I'm the only committer so there"

0:49 arrdem: ambrosebs: git commit --rebase HEAD~N, helping me hide my incompetence all summer at my internship :D

0:49 * arrdem facepalms

0:49 ambrosebs: arrdem: I don't like to pretend :)

0:49 arrdem: rebase. I meant reabase.

0:51 uvtc: Is there a pattern where you can tell which core functions are lazy and which are not? (I realize `doall` and `dorun` are eager).

0:53 ambrosebs: uvtc: other than check the docstring, I don't think so

0:53 uvtc: if it returns a seq, it's probably lazy?

0:55 ddellacosta: hmm, why can I not require-macros in the latest CLJS/lein-cljsbuild?

0:57 uvtc: ambrosebs, Yes. Thank you. I remembered something from the "Clojure Programming" book, and just looked it up. Page 98 mentions that "laziness is restricted to sequences"...

0:58 ambrosebs: uvtc: right yes

0:59 before I fix up the details, any feedback on this for a Typed Clojure landing page? http://typedclojure.github.io/typedclojure.org/

1:00 as you can see, I've been having a lot of fun...

1:00 ddellacosta: nevermind...

1:02 bitemyapp: ambrosebs: pretty cool :)

1:02 ddellacosta: what was it?

1:02 ddellacosta: bitemyapp: me being a dumbass. The greatest cause of frustration with Clojure, in my experience. :-)

1:02 bitemyapp: ddellacosta: but seriously, what was it?

1:03 ddellacosta: people have a LOT of problems with cljs tooling, I need to add to my mental database so I can help people.

1:03 I don't care if it was a typo, I'd just like to know.

1:04 ddellacosta: bitemyapp: well, comes down to me forgetting about how macros work in CLJS

1:04 bitemyapp: ddellacosta: annnnd?

1:05 ddellacosta: bitemyapp: hold on, thinking about how to best explain it

1:05 bitemyapp: sorry :) *waits patiently*

1:05 ddellacosta: bitemyapp: I was confused why macro were not working in a very simple CLJS project, so I tried to simply print out the macro name

1:06 bitemyapp: and that wasn't working--I was getting "undefined"

1:06 bitemyapp: of course, that doesn't mean I haven't loaded it--it means that that var doesn't exist at run time

1:07 bitemyapp: so I was dumping out the "go" macro from core.async, and was further confused why I couldn't see that either...and then I was like, "duh."

1:07 now, you've gone and made me explain how foolish I was for posterity. ;-)

1:08 arrdem: ddellacosta: the malevolence engine has made further note of your inadequicies. so has clojurebot.

1:08 ddellacosta: arrdem: hahaha

1:09 but now I'm back to square one, I have no idea what is wrong with my macro, and I'm not really sure how to debug it. *sigh*

1:09 bitemyapp: ddellacosta: aha, okay, that makes sense. Thanks.

1:10 ddellacosta: bitemyapp: sure thing...if anyone can benefit from my stupidity then it wasn't a total waste. ;-)

1:10 logic_prog: is there a more idiomatic way of writing: (defn make-space [n] (apply str (repeat n " "))) ?

1:11 arrdem: logic_prog: don't, because thanks to structural sharing that's really just (waste-space [n])

1:11 logic_prog: what's the rest of the problem look like?

1:11 logic_prog: identing a piece of code

1:12 arrdem: man... this is just not my night.

1:12 logic_prog: (format "%s ... %s ... %s ... ") and I need to fill in blanks with things like (n+4) blank spaces

1:12 arrdem: lol :-)

1:12 arrdem: logic_prog: I think that make-space is fine.

1:18 technomancy: ambrosebs: "null" and "cond" need to breathe

1:18 ambrosebs: technomancy: yes

1:19 technomancy: looks good though

1:19 ambrosebs: good to hear

1:31 brainproxy: there could be a metaphor in here somewhere with respect to using loop/recur to emulate global state

1:31 http://i.imgur.com/m7rnL02.jpg

1:33 arrdem: (inc brainproxy)

1:33 lazybot: ⇒ 3

2:00 ddellacosta: trying to get a Clojure macro working in ClojureScript. Confused about what namespaces are available when calling eval in the macro--shouldn't it work the same as in Clojure, since macros get run in Clojure?

2:09 dnolen: ddellacosta: CLJS namespaces won't be available there, you can do some fancy stuff by hooking into the analyzer/compiler though

2:10 ddellacosta: dnolen: thanks. Yeah, I'm trying to wrap my head around how to convert this to CLJS: https://github.com/davidsantiago/tinsel/blob/master/src/tinsel/core.clj#L249

2:11 dnolen: I think I'll have to take a look at what you're suggesting re: analyzer/compiler. I haven't done a lot of macro writing in CLJS so I suspected it wouldn't be as straightforward.

2:12 so -> but

2:55 satshabad: reduce

2:55 everything is reduce

2:55 O_o

2:56 TEttinger: satshabad, that's why reducers are a big deal

2:57 satshabad: yes. and I haven't even thought about them yet. Now it's just like "how do I solve thsi problem? Oh, it's a reduce..."

2:57 every time

2:59 TEttinger: if you want one result from a collection, yep, that or loop, pretty much

3:00 bitemyapp: satshabad: yep.

3:00 TEttinger: reduce is amazingly useful, that's why google bet so heavily on it

3:02 bitemyapp: TEttinger: I wouldn't quite put it that way.

3:02 TEttinger: the parallelizability of map and reduce were well understood at the time Google built out its early infrastructure. Less "bet" and more "common sense"

3:02 TEttinger: fair enough

3:03 bitemyapp: the real work was in making the damn shared filesystem scale.

3:03 TEttinger: they more bet that they could parallelize it and get good results, I guess

3:03 bitemyapp: TEttinger: you're still mischaracterizing it.

3:04 TEttinger: probably

3:04 bitemyapp: TEttinger: people were talking about hylomorphic lisps that would be more amenable to parallelization long before Google was a twinkle in Larry's eye.

3:05 TEttinger: I'm not saying google invented map/reduce, just that they decided to use it because it was very powerful

3:05 bitemyapp: TEttinger: even map is besides the point.

3:05 map is just a specialization of left fold.

3:05 filter too.

3:05 all you actually need is fold and short-circuiting.

3:05 TEttinger: I think we got off track

3:06 reduce is good, and I believe a very substantial portion of clojure.core uses it internally

3:07 errr

3:07 no, right namespace

3:08 I'm rusty with clojure, been writing more creative-writing stuff

3:18 Raynes: bitemyapp: Praise our lord technomancy, May he continue to grant us good fortune.

3:26 satshabad: is there a way to stop the reduce somehow?

3:26 like if I reduce on an infinite list

3:26 and I reach some condition

3:26 half way through

3:26 Raynes: In 1.5, calling 'reduced' ends a reduce.

3:27 satshabad: hmmm,

3:27 Raynes: Before that, Syast

3:27 satshabad: does that mean 1.5+

3:27 Raynes: Er, darn iPad.

3:27 Yes.

3:27 satshabad: like it will be around for a while?

3:27 ah cool

3:27 Raynes: System/exit before that. :p

3:28 satshabad: ha!

3:28 Raynes: satshabad: It is very unlikely to ever go anywhere.

3:28 satshabad: just control-c it at the right time

3:28 catch the exception

3:28 Raynes: Yes!

3:28 satshabad: parse the vale

3:28 :)

3:35 what's the most idiomatic way to get a list of keys out of a map?

3:35 (map coll (keys coll))

3:35 ?

3:36 TEttinger: (doc keys)

3:36 clojurebot: "([map]); Returns a sequence of the map's keys."

3:36 satshabad: (doc values)

3:36 clojurebot: Pardon?

3:36 TEttinger: (doc vals)

3:36 clojurebot: "([map]); Returns a sequence of the map's values."

3:37 satshabad: hurry!

3:37 hurray*

3:37 thanks

3:37 TEttinger: they won't be in any particular order for regular maps

3:37 satshabad: yup

3:37 no problem

3:37 TEttinger: sorted-maps will be the right way

3:38 *will be sorted the way you expect

4:28 noidi: is clojure.contrib.seq-utils/indexed part of the core now?

4:29 I know of map-indexed, but I need the indices in a doseq

4:29 iKillCypher: vector map and sets are hash array mapped tries?

4:32 muhoo: doe, or doe not, there is no trie

4:32 * muhoo ducks

4:39 clgv: noidi: (doseq [[x i] (map vector coll (range))] ...)

4:59 noidi: clgv, that's what I'm doing, but indexed would've been prettier :)

5:00 clgv: noidi: humm that's not easily doable since doseq has the same complex "mini language" as for

5:11 terom: noidi, clgv: I guess one could use (map-indexed vector coll) instead of (map vector (range) coll). I've only used the latter, though. See http://stackoverflow.com/a/4196851

5:13 clgv: terom: yes thats true. I had the general case with multiple collections in mind

5:14 terom: clgv: ah, good point

5:33 noncom|2: using core.async what is the best way to send a message from arbitrary parts of the program to a swing label on a swing interface, made with seesaw? currently i use blocking sends allover the program and i use a (go) block created after creating the swing frame, and it sends udates to the label if it receives a message

5:39 weavejester: noncom|2: Why not an asynchronous send? Why blocking?

5:40 noncom|2: weavejester: you mean i better use (go) with an async send?

5:40 actually i use blocking for no particular reson i think... still researching core.async..

5:40 weavejester: noncom|2: Sure. That way your sends are sent in the async pool.

5:41 noncom|2: cool! i'll try that, thanks!

6:02 juxovec: Hi, in core.typed - I have state.edn file. I load it with (read-string (slurp "state.edn"))

6:03 it returns def-alias type called state-type

6:03 so I have a function for parsing data from file

6:03 (ann string->state [String -> state-type])

6:03 (defn string->state [input] (read-string input))

6:03 but it fails because (read-string) expects [String -> Any]

6:04 I need to force core.typed to check signature [String -> state-type] as right

7:37 smiler: How can I write this in a cleaner and more idiomatic way? https://gist.github.com/smiler/7353931

7:43 `cbp: I guess you could remove the extra indentation

7:45 smiler: `cbp: Oops. That's a fuckup from my paste.

7:47 jballanc: smiler: something like this? https://gist.github.com/jballanc/7354050

7:48 smiler: Ah

7:48 jballanc: :)

7:48 the threading macros are *super* useful

7:48 smiler: I tried messing around with -> but I couldn't figure it out. My lisp-fu isn't too good yet.

7:48 jballanc: it takes a bit of getting used to

7:49 you can try playing with macroexpand...might help understanding things (but then again maybe not)

7:50 &(macroexpand '(->> thing (do-something arg-foo)))

7:50 lazybot: ⇒ (do-something arg-foo thing)

7:50 jballanc: &(macroexpand '(-> thing (do-something arg-foo)))

7:50 lazybot: ⇒ (do-something thing arg-foo)

7:55 smiler: Awesome

8:01 clgv: the docstring is pretty descriptive for -> and ->> as well ;)

8:21 cemerick: xeqi_: interested in your opinion on this: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/issues/266

8:22 jcrossley3: cemerick: needs to be said, your issue descriptions are really top drawer. :)

8:23 cemerick: tcrawley|away: Also wondering if you have thoughts ^^

8:24 jcrossley3: hah, thanks. Largely compensating for my operating at the edge of legitimacy here :-)

8:36 mikerod: I have a question, with a little bit of a scenario behind it, so I put the question in gist @ https://gist.github.com/mjr4184/7354670 .

8:36 So if anyone wanted to a stab at it, I'd be grateful :)

8:49 mdrogalis: mikerod: Try that on StackOverflow.

8:52 mikerod: mdrogalis: I suppose so, didn't know if it was worthy of a StackOverflow post. :)

8:53 supersym: i'm helping out a friend who renting appartments, he'd like to get his booking.com reservations in Google Calendar. But booking.com are a bunch of ^$&#( and don't have a API of any sort

8:53 cross-domain POST to the login form isn't allowed is it?

8:54 sigh...yup

8:55 Cross-Origin Resource Sharing may have to be supported and enabled on the target server

9:02 je: after updating clojurescript i get "Unable to resolve var: reader/*alias-map* in this context" when "lein cljsbuild once"

9:03 the "net" tells me that I have to use tools.reader 0.7.10, but I already do that... any other ideas?

9:10 supersym: did you do a $ lein deps :tree

9:11 check if its good, might be some conflicting packages... also $ lein ancient (pretty nice to check if anything outdated)

9:25 tcrawley: cemerick: feedback applied

9:34 nDuff: Hmm.

9:35 mdrogalis: Hm?

9:37 nDuff: Friend has a microcontroller project where core.async's model seems beautifully appropriate, if any of the Clojure->C compilation pipelines are potentially up-to-task.

9:54 xeqi_: cemerick: have you considered "RELEASE" vs -SNAPSHOT?

9:56 cemerick: xeqi: That doesn't work in lein though IIRC?

9:56 It's the same thing though, practically.

9:56 xeqi: cemerick: I believe `lein new` uses it to find the latest template

9:56 pretty much, but with real versions

9:56 cemerick: ? Dunno, I haven't typed "RELEASE" in probably 5 years

9:58 xeqi: as for the overall problem, a [cljs-cljsbuild-compatibility-matrix ..] plugin that is transative from lein-cljsbuild and injects some middleware that walks the dep tree and checks against a black list is the best I can think of

9:59 given the lack of semver

10:01 cemerick: xeqi: well, that's basically what's going on now; the question is, how to get an up-to-date blacklist / compat matrix in the first place.

10:03 TimMc: Are people actually using CLJS in production?

10:03 For like, services or software people pay for?

10:04 It's so freaking pre-alpha.

10:06 xeqi: cemerick: is there a set of tests that could be run as part of the lein-cljsbuild, and then if they all work allow compilation. Possibly with a tmp file for caching so it only runs once per project+cljs version?

10:08 seangrove: TimMc: Note your issues with it somewhere, tweet about it. There's a lot of awareness about shortcomings, and we want to get a lot of it taken care of as we head towards more stable releases

10:08 TimMc: That said, quite a few companies obviously use it in production for software people pay for.

10:10 cemerick: xeqi: There's not systematic qualification process at all. e.g. I'll be updating the compat table based on personal experience / issue reports.

10:11 TimMc: Yeah, but then again, I was shipping Clojure stuff in late 08, early 09?

10:12 xeqi: cemerick: :(

10:12 cemerick: xeqi: it's not like there's any qualification process for Clojure, either! :-P

10:23 TimMc: seangrove: I don't so much have issues with it as... well, it isn't presented as something that's even approaching ready-to-use.

10:24 seangrove: TimMc: Well, be more specific. I have a growing notepad of things that bother me, are broken, etc. I would really like all of it to shine in the next few months as we approach a more stable release.

10:26 TimMc: We've had a lot of groaning from people new to clojurescript here with the tooling, hence my interest in seeing it brought up a few levels

10:29 TimMc: I haven't actually tried using it for a project. I'm not talking about specific bugs or features; it's just that the last couple times I checked in, there wasn't discussion of "Hey, let's standardize what this is going to look like."

10:29 seangrove: TimMc: API-wise? Visually? Docs?

10:29 TimMc: I'm not grousing, just amazed that people use such early stuff as an important component of production code.

10:30 Mailing list, docs, IRC chatter.

10:30 seangrove: TimMc: Sure, just looking for points to improve on

10:30 Thinking about putting together a cljs-tooling sprint here in SF to see if we can regularly improve the state

10:31 smiler: Is it possible to make lein cljsbuild auto not break on compilation error? I'd rather have it wait for a new file update.

10:31 seangrove: smiler: I think the new version (1.0.0-alpha) fixed that

10:32 smiler: Oh I see

10:32 seangrove: Otherwise roll back to 0.3.3

10:32 TimMc: seangrove: And I know that Clojure doesn't have a spec either, but that doesn't mean CLJS shouldn't. :-P

10:32 seangrove: TimMc: For alternative implementations?

10:32 TimMc: Just... a spec, at all.

10:32 seangrove: I guess I don't see that helping new or existing users much

10:33 Possibly tooling devs though

10:33 cemerick: smiler: 1.0.0-alpha1

10:33 smiler: I'll give it a shot :)

10:34 cemerick: There's something close to a spec (or, common understanding?) re: analyzer output. Beyond that, not much.

10:34 seangrove: smiler: If you're using austin, be sure to update to to 0.1.2 and cljs 2014 - I had some trouble yesterday and today with browser.repl not compiling before I updated everything

10:35 cemerick: seangrove: announcing new releases across the board today

10:35 seangrove: cemerick: What would a spec even look like? Stable API's for analyzer, compiler, maybe reader phases, sure, but not sure beyond that

10:35 smiler: How do people keep track of all these version numbers?

10:35 seangrove: cemerick: I assumed so, just helping in the interim

10:35 cemerick: seangrove: no idea.

10:35 seangrove: sure, thanks :-)

10:37 There are some things around the compiler that I'd like to have better compartmentalized (e.g. bottle the js-specific stuff better), which would help a lot with alternative emitters/backends. But, stuff like that is always going to take a backseat to getting shit done.

10:37 TimMc: seangrove: A spec is an agreement on what is considered API vs. implementation details that shouldn't be relied upon.

10:37 Clojure's lack of such a thing means it's hard to build certain tooling around it (e.g. alternative readers need to know what's a valid symbol).

10:37 It's OK if the spec *changes*, it should just be intentional. :-P

10:38 seangrove: TimMc: I suppose, just doesn't seem immediately relevant or helpful

10:39 smiler: Does lein have something to check a project file and hint about never versions of stuff available?

10:39 seangrove: cemerick: I'd be happy to work on that, but the vast majority of the compiler right now is about the js-implementation details. What would you like to see pulled out? A more abstract constants emitter, etc.?

10:42 joegallo: smiler: https://github.com/xsc/lein-ancient

10:42 TimMc: I use Clojure *despite* these flaws, because it is otherwise very good in its space. CLJS so far has the same flaws, but less compensating draw, since I do less in the browser space these days.

10:43 smiler: joegallo: Cool! Thank you.

10:43 TimMc: Honestly, if someone forked Clojure and gave it better documentation, I'd be all over that.

10:47 seangrove: TimMc: Could be interesting, but for now I'm more interested in getting the existing tooling and apis better

10:47 I can't do much around specs, but I can help out with code, issues, features, and bugs

10:47 TimMc: *nod*

10:47 seangrove: Especially bugs, I help create a lot of those

10:47 TimMc: Heh.

10:47 mdrogalis: HAh

10:48 llasram: Care and nurture, to raise bugs right

10:50 Damballa's all-engineering mailing list is named "bugfarmers". It still makes me smile

11:07 seangrove: Ah, damnit, I've forgotten how to access nested static classes

11:08 CookedGryphon: Class$Inner

11:08 seangrove: I thought so, doesn't seem to be working. I need to query the class to see what it looks like

11:08 CookedGryphon: you might need to import it separately?

11:09 if you're not fully qualifying it, i.e. (:import com.blah.ClassA) won't give you access to ClassA$Inner

11:09 TimMc: &java.awt.geom.Point2D$Double

11:09 lazybot: ⇒ java.awt.geom.Point2D$Double

11:09 CookedGryphon: you need to (:import com.blah.ClassA$Inner) as well

11:09 seangrove: CookedGryphon: Ah, that was it, I think I had to import it with the $ syntax

11:10 CookedGryphon: cool

11:10 seangrove: Thank you

11:10 CookedGryphon: np

11:12 TimMc: ,(.importClass 'PD java.awt.geom.Point2D$Double)

11:12 clojurebot: #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: importClass for class clojure.lang.Symbol>

11:12 TimMc: ,(.importClass *ns* 'PD java.awt.geom.Point2D$Double)

11:12 clojurebot: java.awt.geom.Point2D$Double

11:12 TimMc: ,(.getX (PD. 5 6))

11:12 clojurebot: 5.0

11:12 llasram: Heeeey. That's my trick

11:12 TimMc: :-)

11:14 llasram: Really should slap a nice interface on that

11:14 CookedGryphon: as a more general thing it would be nice to have renaming functionality

11:14 llasram: I'm v glad I haven't had to do too much with Hadoop `mapred` vs `mapreduce`, or the same-base-named classes would probably have driven me insane

11:14 TimMc: Huh, why is clojure.core/import* implemented as a special form?

11:15 llasram: TimMc: Probably so you can use it before implementing macros?

11:15 *wild guess*

11:16 joegallo: that importClass trick is neat as heck

11:16 llasram: Oh, but if it takes explicit symbols, no need for macros... Um. Huh. Yeah, no idea

11:17 Also, I am blathering nonsense

11:18 CookedGryphon: it would be nice if there was a (:require [thing :rename {this that}] and the equivalent import

11:20 TimMc: CookedGryphon: I was working on something like that a while back: https://github.com/baznex/imports

11:20 CookedGryphon: It would also be nice if the keywords in the ns form weren't restricted to clojure.core

11:20 llasram: CookedGryphon: There is for vars

11:20 CookedGryphon: llasram: oh?

11:23 hoangelos: I upgraded an app that uses ring.adapter.jetty. Now all my tests that use :truststores fail. There's really no documentation on using truststores. And no tests that do so either, so I'm really not sure how they are supposed to be used.

11:28 llasram: CookedGryphon: Tooked me a min to remember the details. Need to add a separate :refer form to ns (or call refer)

11:28 &(do (refer 'clojure.string :only '[split] :rename '{split str-split}) str-split)

11:28 lazybot: ⇒ #<string$split clojure.string$split@12dd7de>

11:31 CookedGryphon: is the :only necessary there?

11:31 &(do (refer 'clojure.string :only '[split] :rename '{split str-split}) str-split)

11:31 lazybot: ⇒ #<string$split clojure.string$split@12dd7de>

11:31 llasram: CookedGryphon: Yeah. Otherwise it'll `refer` everything

11:31 CookedGryphon: oops

11:32 sorry, didn't mean to paste that back. Hmm, that's annoying, doesn't fit with the recommended :require :refer way of doing things ,would be nice if it was just :require :refer :rename

11:32 llasram: Yeah

11:32 CookedGryphon: where the renames don't need to be referred

11:32 it bugs me that you can't override things in the ns form

11:32 when it's flexible enough to allow that

11:32 llasram: Technically you can.... It's just tricky

11:33 CookedGryphon: yeah, you need to inject stuff into clojure.core, right?

11:33 llasram: And of course would result in incompatibilities for libraries

11:33 Yep

11:33 You can do it with `user.clj`, and pjstadig figured out the fun/horrifying fun trick of using read-eval in `data_readers.clj`

11:33 TimMc: haha

11:34 That's kind of brilliant.

11:34 CookedGryphon: hm

11:35 but yeah, so I did a little experiment with a lightweight library set up

11:35 with the idea of using a remote-require in the ns form

11:36 instead of having a full on jar dependency it would pull in individual functions/small namespaces from trusted sources and cache them for reuse

11:36 so if you jsut have a little hof or useful snippet, you can re-use it without all the hassle of a library version

11:36 but it might end up making your ns form look a bit messy and various other problems

11:36 llasram: Blorgh, CIDER didn't auto-move my nrepl.el customizations to their new names :-/

11:36 jtoy: I am trying to make a library that has a macro, (defmacro defpage (layout ?)) ; the problem is layout is not defined at the time, my other code that will include this library will define a layout later, how can I make write the macro in my library so that this works?

11:38 CookedGryphon: jtoy, first rule of macro club... why do you need this to be a macro?

11:40 jtoy: CookedGryphon: I think I need a macro to do this, this is the exact macro: https://www.refheap.com/20564 even if it is a function, I will have the same exact problem

11:40 the main reason is so i have the params and session always passed to me in my webpages

11:41 CookedGryphon: you can do that with clojures in returned functions

11:41 closures* sorry

11:41 S11001001: CookedGryphon: :D that thing

11:41 jtoy: pass a function that takes those as arguments

11:41 jtoy: CookedGryphon: I am already using cloure :)

11:41 clojure

11:41 S11001001: anaphora are not your friends

11:42 jtoy: S11001001: I dont understand

11:42 S11001001: the ~'... bits

11:42 that's why clojure defines if-let instead of aif

11:43 &c

11:43 lazybot: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: c in this context

11:43 S11001001: etc

11:43 TimMc: CookedGryphon: Caching might lead to unpredictable builds.

11:43 CookedGryphon: so jtoy, describe in a little more detail what you want to be able to do

11:44 TimMc: I was going to use hashes instead of version numbers, to disallow changing of the code under your feet too

11:44 jtoy: S11001001: so you are saying just check if the layout function exists?

11:44 CookedGryphon: TimMc: The idea being that there would be at most a couple of revisions, and you would have read the entire source file - it's only a short snippet, say an extension of a protocol ot a type or a hof

11:45 jtoy: CookedGryphon: I want a function that calls another function that isnt defined yet in my library. its in my userland code where the other function is defined

11:45 CookedGryphon: so you make a function that takes a function

11:46 jtoy: hmm, the whole point of the macro was so i dont need to pass in the layout everytime

11:46 part of it

11:46 CookedGryphon: (defn thing-that-calls-function [f session] (fn [& params] (apply f session params))

11:46 or something

11:47 S11001001: jtoy: well, the things that are macro-needing in that macro are the def part — just def yourself, implicit def isn't a good enough reason for a macro — and the ~'... bindings — which aren't your friends, though they sound good now they will punish you — so this is best as a function.

11:48 CookedGryphon: jtoy: not sure that's the clearest example, I probably tried to cram too much into it

11:48 but you can pass your layout function in, and return a function out which knows about the session at the time you def it

11:48 jtoy: S11001001 CookedGryphon could either of you show me how you would transform my crappy macro into something better ?

11:50 CookedGryphon: I've got to go in a few minutes, but basically if you want a function which will call another function with some session baked in, see the line I posted earlier

11:51 jtoy: ok, thanks, I will explore it

11:51 S11001001: jtoy: (defn page [f] (fn [{:keys [params session]}] (layout session (f params session)))), to use: (def name (page (fn [params session] body)))

11:52 jtoy: S11001001: will that work if layout is not defined when defining defn page?

11:53 S11001001: jtoy: no

11:53 jtoy: or yes, depending on what "defined" means

11:54 jtoy: S11001001: that was my original problem, i want to have (defn page ) in a library , but the layout is not set yet, my userland code will define a layout and then call (def name (page (fn [params session] body)))

11:55 S11001001: jtoy: well, the macro won't solve that problem either. It must be defined for ` expansion to work correctly. So macroization isn't the way to go, regardless.

11:55 CookedGryphon: jtoy: if you mean the user defines the layout function

11:55 tehn what you'll do is (def name (page layout)) right?

11:55 S11001001: jtoy: in that case, layout should be an argument to the `page' function, along with f, as CookedGryphon says

11:56 jtoy: S11001001: ok, that seems painful to write that over and over....

11:56 i will try it though

11:56 S11001001: jtoy: less painful than the maintenance headaches of anaphora. Take it from one who's used it extensively in common lisp.

11:57 CookedGryphon: jtoy: I'm not sure what you think is going to be repetitive

11:57 if you want to define a function with the session baked in to avoid having to call it again, then (def name (page layout session))

11:58 (sorry if this is confusing, it's really hard to try and use your function names when i'm not quite sure what it's meant to be achieving)

11:58 justin_smith: so I am making progress with my request serialization / replay middlware for ring

11:58 and I settled on a name: groundhog

11:58 as in groundhog day

11:59 TimMc: :-)

11:59 justin_smith: I actually have replayed recorded requests, just need to clean up the api so it is generally usable

12:00 ie. put in a place for a "sanitizer" that would remove things like plaintext credentials before storing things persistently

12:00 jtoy: CookedGryphon: that part i feel is repetitive is if i have dozens of webpages and they all need access to params and session, i am using ring which gives you a request map, and each function i was pulling out session and params from request

12:00 but this might work, i wrote that old macro months ago when i was still learning

12:01 and also passing in the layout to the page

12:05 teslanick: So, the lein-light-repl package includes a bunch of duplicate classes. I'm pretty sure it's resolvable, and I'd like to raise it as a bug. Any idea where I should do that?

12:08 technomancy: justin_smith: sweet

12:08 https://tinyurl.com/pftpvvs

12:09 justin_smith: heh

12:09 technomancy: as long as I can be Murdock

12:10 technomancy: deal

12:40 amalloy: S11001001: i have like one anaphoric macro in useful, which is great and i use all the time. but anaphora are definitely something you have to use very sparingly

12:41 in case anyone is really excited about this idea, it just lets you write (lazy-loop [x 1, y 2] (when foo (cons x (lazy-recur y z)))) instead of ((fn step [x y] (when foo (cons x (step y z)))) 1 2)

12:43 Raynes: amalloy: Hah, it never occurred to me that lazy-loop is anaphoric.

12:45 technomancy: regular loop is arguably anaphoric too

12:46 Raynes: amalloy: lazy-loop is so awesome. Should be in core.

12:46 Let's slip it into core when Stuart Halloway isn't looking.

12:47 S11001001: technomancy: I did a talk about that

12:47 technomancy: oh, that'd b eme not paying attention

12:47 dnolen: stuartsierra: fyi, source maps significantly less half baked. might be bug still but should more less work even with web based work flows

12:49 stuartsierra1: dnolen: Awesome.

12:49 So many new features in ClojureScript lately, making my job of teaching at Clojure/conj next week harder!

12:55 hyPiRion: so how would you unapahorize (?) loop? Would you do something like (loop my-loop [a b] (if condition (recur my-loop my-arg1 my-arg2) ret-val)) ?

12:55 TimMc: Yep.

12:55 hyPiRion: or just functionize the whole shebang?

12:55 ah.

12:55 TimMc: Like named let in Scheme.

12:55 technomancy: technically making recur a var might, but that feels like a nonsense solution

12:56 TimMc: (let foo [a 1 b 2] ... (foo 3 4))

12:56 (Ish. I think Scheme has more brackets.)

12:57 technomancy: someone in #emacs was asking about nested loop with inner-recur and outer-recur a while back

13:05 amalloy: hyPiRion: the only way would be to remove it and use lambda instead

13:05 oh, i didn't scroll down far enough

13:05 jtoy: what is the name of the clojure function used to define an empty function ?

13:06 amalloy: jtoy: there's no such thing?

13:06 tbaldrid_: jtoy: empty?

13:06 amalloy: like, (fn) is an empty function, although why you would define it is unclear

13:06 tbaldrid_: jtoy: that is to say, what do you mean an empty function

13:07 mdrogalis: constantly?

13:07 jtoy: im describing it incorrectly, i saw there is a function that you call like (thiswillexistlater myfunc) so that code will not die

13:07 mdrogalis: declare

13:08 jtoy: yes, it is declare, thanks

13:08 mdrogalis: Sure.

13:10 xuser: How do you import a clojure source code file into to the lein repl?

13:11 mdrogalis: xuser: load-file if it's not on your classpath

13:11 llasram: `require` the namespace associated with the file

13:11 mdrogalis, xuser: load-file will work, but let's not spread bad habits!

13:12 xuser: ok, thanks

13:12 mdrogalis: Oh, he said 'lein repl'. My eyes glazed over the 'lein'.

13:12 I think it's time to stop programming today :)

13:13 jtoy: im assuming decdare can be dangerous, anyone know of any good blog posts describing it in detail, i cant find much

13:13 declare

13:13 technomancy: jtoy: FWIW declare is a macro that defines a var, not a function that defines a function

13:14 jtoy: it's not dangerous so much as an indication that maybe you could think about removing circular references. it's a judgement call.

13:16 jtoy: technomancy: ah, thanks for the clarification, i will try to remove the circulr references , im trying to create a library for all my apps but the library expects a few things that are dependent on each app to define

13:16 technomancy: I could also just generate all the code, that is what im partially doing already with my lein tempalte

13:17 technomancy: usually it's clearer withuot circularity but sometimes it is unavoidable

13:19 TimMc: Never unavoidable. :-P

13:20 technomancy: haha technically true

13:20 mdrogalis: The Swearjure guy is talking about clarity, get a load of this :P

13:20 TimMc: but some of the possible solutions might get you murdered by the next maintainer of your code

13:20 hyPiRion: yeah, you can just use the Y combinator

13:27 muhoo: hyPiRion: for what, funding your startup?

13:27 * muhoo ducks again

13:27 hyPiRion: oh, you

13:35 faust45: hi guys

13:35 i just got error which confused me

13:35 i run leon repl

13:36 and see error <CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException .proxy

13:36 llasram: I'm totally changing my name to "Leon Repl"

13:36 faust45: but i comment out code related to proxy

13:36 why i got this error?

13:36 can some one help?

13:37 technomancy: llasram: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/lein-jenkins/43/3aa/3a2

13:37 llasram: technomancy: Nice!

13:37 mdrogalis: faust45: Can you run `lein version` for us?

13:37 faust45: mdrogalis: Leiningen 2.1.2 on Java 1.7.0_45 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM

13:37 llasram: faust45: That error looks like you're putting the symbol `.proxy` somewhere where a class would be expected

13:38 mdrogalis: faust45: Upgrade Lein first, just cause :)

13:38 llasram: The error when running `lein repl` is probably because you either have `:aot` enabled or `:main` without `^:skip-aot`

13:38 faust45: mdrogalis: but i comment out this code

13:40 and now i remove this code related to proxy

13:40 and still got error

13:40 leon cached my files ?

13:40 mdrogalis: Leon doesn't cache files, no.

13:40 faust45: ^lein i mean

13:40 mdrogalis: :)

13:41 faust45: so why i see this error ?

13:41 i remove code with proxy

13:41 mdrogalis: faust45: Is your project on GitHub?

13:41 llasram: faust45: First, remove `:main` from your project.clj

13:41 Then you can launch a repl and fix your code

13:42 faust45: llasram: i drop :main

13:42 but when i load my name space in repl

13:42 i got this error again

13:43 llasram: Yes

13:43 But now you can launch your REPL

13:43 And actually figure out your problem

13:43 faust45: how ?

13:43 llasram: Well, searching the file for `.proxy` might be a good place to start

13:44 faust45: grep proxy

13:44 i got nothing

13:45 llasram: You might have stale AOT code, although I don't how you'd AOT something that produces an error like this. You can try `lein clean`, then restart the REPL + relead NS

13:45 s,relead,reload,

13:47 faust45: llasram: after leon clean, still see this error

13:47 llasram: I'm afraid you're on your own

13:50 TimMc: faust45: If the compiler isn't giving you a file and line number, the traditional approach here is to start bisecting your code.

13:54 faust45: This might also be useful -- it modifies all your source files to add progress debugging statements: https://gist.github.com/timmc/7359898

13:54 (Obviously, you'll want to save off your work before running that.)

13:55 It's very sloppy, but running lein compile after that should tell you where the compiler ran into trouble.

13:58 technomancy: or lein check

14:07 faust45: technomancy: thanks, only when i fixed all issuer from leon check, that error was gone

14:08 technomancy: but at my point will be better show root issue in repl, when i try reload namespace

14:09 i got this issue only when try using proxy

14:10 interesting why?

14:10 TimMc: So what was the issue?

14:11 faust45: TimMc: i put wrong ns in one of my files

14:11 i put "users" vs "jsondb.users"

14:18 TimMc: Hmm, doesn't sound like that would cause the error you posted.

14:25 lynaghk: I'm trying to use criterium to put together a perf benchmark test suite that I can run from the console

14:26 is anyone aware of a good way to set that kind of thing up? I'm tempted to just try and reuse "lein midje" with twiddled source directories

14:26 seangrove: bitemyapp: You going to the climate meetup tonight?

14:26 hiredman: lynaghk: https://github.com/davidsantiago/perforate

14:27 I mean, I haven't used it, but it is the first google hit

14:27 lynaghk: hiredman: ahhh awesome. thanks.

14:41 faust45: TimMc: actually i am not sure, its looks crazy i try to replicate this

14:42 TimMc: and what i see: i have two ns models and db

14:42 models require db

14:42 TimMc: Did you ever find a place you had written "proxy"?

14:42 faust45: and when i implement proxy in models

14:43 i don't need find it, i know this place

14:43 i implement proxy in models

14:43 then leon check

14:43 got error

14:43 then comment proxy code

14:43 then leon check

14:44 and got ClassNotFoundException: jsondb.models.proxy

14:44 `cbp: ^ mac user

14:44 * `cbp giggles

14:44 faust45: and only when i comment (def default (open "db/testdb"))

14:44 TimMc: ~leon

14:44 faust45: in db ns

14:44 clojurebot: leon is a good sign it's time to turn off auto-"correct"

14:45 `cbp: clojurebot is all-knowing

14:45 TimMc: You said that grep didn't find it...

14:45 faust45: TimMc: yes after i drop proxy

14:45 grep not find it

14:45 i try grep for proxy

14:45 in case i forgot some places

14:45 but nothing

14:46 issue looks strange for me

14:46 only when i comment (def default (open "db/testdb"))

14:46 in db ns

14:46 it works

14:50 sritchie: technomancy, I had asked this before, but still a little unclear - is a 95MB slug size reasonable?

14:50 for an uberjar app

14:51 muhoo: justin_smith: did you end up pursuing that state-saving debug middleware?

14:51 justin_smith: muhoo: working on it right now

14:51 named groundhog

14:52 TimMc: sritchie: Why, back in my day, the JDK itself was 20 MB and that was a long download, let me tell you! *mutter mutter*

14:52 justin_smith: I am base64 encoding the body and passing along an identical stream, then turning that encoded body back into a stream for replay

14:52 technomancy: sritchie: no, I'd say that's medium-sized

14:52 justin_smith: I just added some opts and broke some stuff in the process, but I have succeeded in replaying stored requests

14:52 and should have something quite usable by end of day

14:53 sritchie: technomancy: for a 50MB uberjar

14:53 TimMc: If someone tried to fax you, you'd ave to start all over!

14:53 sritchie: though I can confirm that

14:55 technomancy: sritchie: sorry, "no" meaning not unreasonable

14:55 misread the question

14:56 sritchie: okay, nice

14:58 justin_smith: muhoo: network hiccup, my last may not have gone through

14:58 bitemyapp: seangone: yes

14:58 justin_smith: if you want to store to a db you may want to remove plaintext passwords that would be in app specific places, to replay you may want to set a custom URI that responds to, and a retrieval method that is the categorical dual of your storage method

14:59 bitemyapp: sritchie: coming to the meetup tonight?

14:59 sritchie: IPO party, so I won't be able to make it, unfortunately

14:59 bitemyapp: sritchie: oh right! Congrats, have fun!

15:00 sritchie: next one, though!

15:05 technomancy: btw, was there ever a resolution for this?

15:05 http://grokbase.com/p/gg/clojure/1358zejkcr/new-relic-installation-on-heroku

15:05 no data getting reported on new relic? I'm suspecting HTTPKit, perhaps

15:06 it's odd, man. it connects, and I see "last data, two minutes ago" etc,

15:06 but nothing in the overview, no numbers

15:06 actually, memory usage per instance is looking good

15:08 technomancy: sritchie: I wouldn't be surprised if httpkit interfered with new relic's ability to collect data, but I don't have any specifics

15:08 sritchie: hmm

15:09 bitemyapp: technomancy: I could take a look.

15:09 if it requires manual instrumentation I might be able to slap something together.

15:10 justin_smith: technomancy: muhoo: it's a start, it isn't perfect but it does what it claims to - https://github.com/noisesmith/groundhog https://clojars.org/noisesmith/groundhog

15:10 bitemyapp: oh, they're using some opaque java agent?

15:10 sritchie: bitemyapp: awesome

15:10 lmk if I can change anything

15:11 bitemyapp: sritchie: Here's manual instrumentation: http://corfield.org/blog/post.cfm/instrumenting-clojure-for-new-relic-monitoring

15:11 I'm a bit leery of New Relic in general, but I understand why they're popular.

15:12 sritchie: I'm moving over to my own riemann setup

15:12 bitemyapp: sritchie: yeah that's what I prefer.

15:12 rolling my own, that is.

15:13 New Relic charges more for their service than Heroku does for the dynos. Nutty.

15:13 sritchie: yup

15:13 still on the free tier :)

15:13 * nDuff has been a happy Tracelytics customer in the past

15:14 nDuff: ...never played with New Relic, but the Tracelytics stack was a pretty easy one to work with.

15:14 bitemyapp: I haven't tried tracelytics. I'm capable of believing a company can do a good job with this sort of thing, but I really don't like the opacity of NewRelic's instrumentation and data.

15:14 nDuff: (...also, they built quite a lot of instrumentation for us just for the asking, all of it OSS, and provided assistance when I wanted to build our own).

15:15 bitemyapp: nDuff: wow, that's pretty great :)

15:15 technomancy: I think the pricing just changed a few days ago around new relic on heroku FWIW

15:16 I haven't used them myself and their recommendations to check jars into source make me wary

15:16 * nDuff actually has a standing invite to visit from the Tracelytics folks; if he ever makes it over to the Rhode Island area...

15:16 bitemyapp: nDuff: they got bought by AppNeta. huh.

15:16 oh they have a free tier so I can try it out. Hum.

15:17 nDuff: what sort of applications have you used TraceView with?

15:17 nDuff: ...to be fair, I don't know how their JVM-centric instrumentation is; this was at a Python shop.

15:18 bitemyapp: nDuff: ah damn.

15:18 nDuff: ...well, this was before it *was* TraceView, but my primary usage was the full stack at Tippr -- instrumented everything from the SSL decoding systems and load balancers all the way back.

15:19 ...the template engine we used was based on code generation, and reworking it to build in instrumentation to the templates was pretty darned straightforward.

15:20 seangrove: I cannot believe hard tedious getting certain google domain-wide delegation service account integration whatevers to work is

15:21 * seangrove can only stop from screaming by imagining he's like Indiana Jones, deciphering ancient cryptic text half0filled with lies and misleading ideas, in order to find the combination that opens the door

15:26 bitemyapp: seangrove: usually whenever I bump up into an interface made by Google, I end up unhappy.

15:26 This goes double if it was made by Atlassian.

15:26 justin_smith: http://sprunge.us/hLgK?clojure is this a known bug? maybe it isn't a bug?

15:27 I would think a base64 encoder should produce output its own decoder can handle

15:27 or is an empty string explicitly outside the domain?

15:27 hoangelos: So, is anyone using ring.adapter.jetty? I upgraded to a new version and can't get the SSL to work. When I use truststore, it gives me an error about converting from String to java.security.KeyStore

15:27 ehtesh: Is there something like leiningen, but for regular java projects? I certainly like using leiningen since it's a commandline tool. Dunno what sort of equivalent for Java code there is.

15:28 justin_smith: hoangelos: I use jetty, but only in dev, so I don't do ssl via jetty

15:28 ehtesh: it is a frontend for maven (mvn) which is a java tool

15:28 bitemyapp: seangrove: just drink tea.

15:29 justin_smith: ehtesh: well not strictly a frontend, but they both use the same format / archive etc.

15:29 seangrove: bitemyapp: Got my jasmine tea right here.

15:29 TimMc: justin_smith: Looks like a bug. I see no reason an empty string should be out of domain.

15:29 bitemyapp: seangrove: supreme dragonwell brewing atm.

15:29 hyPiRion: Leiningen works fine for java projects, but you could also use maven if you want to. Or ant.

15:29 bitemyapp: I should bring my tea to the meetup.

15:29 seangrove: This is actually the second day. I decided to take a nap half way through yesterday and sleep early last night, thought it would help.

15:29 hyPiRion: People don't really want to though, so they tend to stay away

15:29 justin_smith: TimMc: of course I can handle it by making a special case for empty input, but yeah

15:29 bitemyapp: hyPiRion: or scala.

15:30 hyPiRion: bitemyapp: yeah, but they have sbt, which (from my knowledge) is okay

15:30 seangrove: bitemyapp: Nah, caffeine too late at night is no good

15:30 bitemyapp: hyPiRion: sbt is not okay. You take that back right now.

15:31 seangrove: theanine helps.

15:31 hyPiRion: bitemyapp: well, my knowledge is limited, so I guess I learnt something today

15:31 seangrove: This link give a security warning for everyone else as well? https://samples.google-api-java-client.googlecode.com/archive/1dd135aa1dfa0b5d326ba2a0c795ed18cd052495.zip

15:31 hoangelos: anyone else use jetty with ssl?

15:31 bitemyapp: hoangelos: nope, use nginx.

15:31 seangrove: hoangelos: ah, bitemyapp beat me to it :P

15:31 bitemyapp: and I don't even use jetty, I use httpkit.

15:32 TimMc: seangrove: Yep, wildcards only apply to a single level.

15:32 hoangelos: yeah this is embedded in an app, so can't use any of that.

15:32 seangrove: TimMc: thanks

15:32 TimMc: seangrove: They need *.google-api-java-client.googlecode.com or samples.google-api-java-client.googlecode.com in that list.

15:32 justin_smith: TimMc: the doc string for decode mentions that length must be a multiple of 4, and for all inputs other than an empty one it outputs a multiple of 4 from encode

15:32 seangrove: I actually feel a bit sorry for Google, they have *so much* stuff going on, it must be difficult to maintain a consistent level, and the keep it all up to date

15:33 That said, I suppose MS did/does it very well with MSDN

15:33 TimMc: &(/ 0 4)

15:33 lazybot: ⇒ 0

15:34 ehtesh: justin_smith: so I can just keep playing around with Java code using Leiningen without bothering to drop into Clojure?

15:35 hoangelos: apparently the library changed how they use truststore. It was a String, and now is supposed to be java.security.KeyStore

15:35 error says: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.security.KeyStore

15:36 ehtesh: also hyPiRion ^

15:36 hyPiRion: ehtesh: yeah, you can see an example at e.g. https://github.com/hyPiRion/com.hypirion.io

15:38 ehtesh: hyPiRion: very useful project of yours, I'm going to go mirror it

15:38 hyPiRion: mirror the styles, rather

15:39 hyPiRion: ehtesh: oh yeah, be my guest

15:40 ehtesh: hyPiRion: I also have a jar file I've been putting on the classpath, I'm guessing there's an option to use leiningen with that?

15:42 hyPiRion: ehtesh: https://github.com/nickgieschen/lein-extend-cp - althought it's considered bad practice. You should attempt to use the :dependencies key if possible

15:44 ehtesh: I'm going through an algo course that has a stdlib.jar for helper functions. It's not on maven and it's small, so it'd be easier to include in the repo.

15:45 hyPiRion: yeah, then it's probably just fine

15:50 seangrove: Just got rickrolled by a google api java sample

15:50 * seangrove curls up into a ball and sobs gently

15:53 yazirian: 404 NEVER GONNA GIVE

15:58 TimMc: justin_smith: I find it a little odd that base64/encode returns a byte array instead of a string.

16:00 faust45: TimMc: the problem was: i create proxy class and use it as serializer for MapDB. next time when drop proxy and run lein check MapDB read file and try to find this serializer and raise error

16:07 ehtesh: hm... can I list the methods available from a jar file once it's loaded into Clojure? Say this one: http://introcs.cs.princeton.edu/java/stdlib/stdlib.jar . Would be convenient in Clojure.

16:10 joegallo: a jar file doesn't have methods

16:10 ehtesh: Even though the jar is in the classpath and shows up with (doall (map println (seq (.getURLs (java.lang.ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader))))) , I can't instantiate classes in it

16:10 joegallo: er, I guess the classes, then?

16:11 nDuff: ehtesh: can you show us what you're trying to do to instantiate classes, and how it's failing?

16:11 hiredman: ehtesh: the look like they are in the default package

16:11 which is bad

16:11 nDuff: ...indeed; eww.

16:12 hiredman: generally frowned upon in java, and clojure's interop can have issues with that

16:12 llasram: ehtesh: I don't know why, but I've discovered in the past that you can't import package-less classes with the `ns` `:import` form

16:12 But you *can* import them with the `import` macro

16:12 ***MYSTERIES***

16:12 nDuff: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/Eo8Rhdyst1I

16:12 ...from Rich: "Clojure doesn't support clrasses not in packages."

16:12 err, except without the typo.

16:12 hiredman: llasram: well because that is silly

16:13 amalloy: llasram: import is a function, not a macro

16:13 hiredman: the only thing "import" does is let you refer to a class by it's name without the package

16:13 nDuff: ehtesh: ...from elsewhere in the thread: "You can't do it in Java either. Any Java class that is not in the default package cannot access any class that is in the default package. The default package is an isolated world unto itself."

16:13 amalloy: oh, wait, it's not?

16:13 it could be

16:13 hiredman: those classes already don't have a package, so there is no reason to import them

16:14 llasram: amalloy: Yeah, I was surprised too. There was some chatter earlier, wondering why it's a macro, and why `import*` is a special form

16:15 nDuff: ehtesh: ...though you *can* retrieve them with (Class/forName "BinaryIn") and such.

16:16 llasram: hiredman: I never investigated further, but I found that `reify` did not work with a package-less interface unless I first `import`ed it into the namespaces

16:16 ehtesh: nDuff, hiredman: Well, I'm including a jar file with some extra classes. Here's the pastebin: https://www.refheap.com/20571

16:16 hiredman: llasram: that is not true

16:16 llasram: I use reify on java.io.Closeable without importing all the time

16:17 llasram: hiredman: Sure -- but not a packageless interface

16:17 nDuff: ehtesh: Is anything in that pastebin responsive to what I told you above?

16:17 llasram: Although my memory may be faulty

16:17 nDuff: ehtesh: ...it doesn't look relevant to the issue me.

16:17 s/ me/to me/

16:18 hiredman: ah

16:18 ehtesh: I think Rich saying that clojure doesn't support default packages is useful; is that the problem for me?

16:18 nDuff: ehtesh: yes.

16:18 ehtesh: nDuff: er, in the quote you mentioned

16:18 nDuff: ehtesh: a well-formed jar would have edu/princeton/yourclass/StdIn.class in it

16:18 ehtesh: ...not just StdIn.class

16:18 ehtesh: ...which is to say, the classes would be in a package.

16:18 ehtesh: well they do have a packaged version of their stdlib.jar

16:19 nDuff: ehtesh: what exactly do you mean by the word "packaged"?

16:19 ehtesh: because when I look inside that jar, there's no package in it, just a bunch of classes in the default package.

16:20 ehtesh: ..."package" in this context being Java terminology, roughly corresponding to directory structure inside of a jar.

16:20 ehtesh: Let me take that back, I'm referring to the text around "stdlib-package.jar" in this webpage: http://introcs.cs.princeton.edu/java/stdlib/

16:20 hiredman: ehtesh: packaged in this case means the clases say they are part of a pacakge, it has nothing to do with the "packaging" of classes in to a jar

16:21 ehtesh: hiredman, nDuff: sure, you guys mean "package edu.princeton.yourclass;" statement at the top of a Java file, yes?

16:21 hiredman: yeah

16:21 nDuff: ehtesh: ...so, yeah, the -package version of the jar looks much better

16:21 ehtesh: you should be able to use that from Clojure.

16:22 ehtesh: you'll want to do something like (import '[edu.princeton.cs.introcs Draw Picture ...])

16:26 ehtesh: nDuff: cool cool cool, thanks!

16:26 nDuff: actually, I'm going to be writing Java code, I'm just using Leiningen since I like it a bit

16:27 llasram: It also makes it easy to write your tests in Clojure, even if the main code is all Java

16:27 OTOH, it makes it kind of difficult to write the tests in Java...

16:29 TimMc: lein-junit works

16:29 llasram: Oh, cool. Last time I tried to use it, I had the troubles, but that was ~1 year ago

16:30 TimMc: I'm not doing anything fancy or extensive with it, mind oyu/

16:30 *you

16:37 bitemyapp: hyPiRion: what...is Halloway doing?

16:37 justin_smith: TimMc: I think that is because base64 is very specific about the bits making up the string, and the jvm is unicode-only for String things

16:38 TimMc: so the only clean way to ensure the exact bit level content of the base64 is probably a byte array

16:38 TimMc: in fact, a byte array is probably the only sure way to get exact bit level content of anything

16:38 hyPiRion: bitemyapp: Disabling broken tests

16:38 obviously

16:39 bitemyapp: hyPiRion: but whyyyyy?

16:39 hyPiRion: don't ask me

16:39 technomancy: to get them to pass?

16:40 justin_smith: unit tests don't pass, better delete them

16:40 I've done it, though I am not proud

16:40 bitemyapp: well the conj is coming up. Maybe people can ask him why he's #_'ing tests.

16:40 :P

16:41 llasram: He says right there "does not work on IBM JDK"

16:41 duh

16:41 bitemyapp: "Multimethod tables are now protected by a read/write lock instead of a synchronized method. This should result in a performance boost for multithreaded code using multimethods."

16:41 o_O that explains a lot.

16:42 oh, the RestFn patch isn't in this :(

16:45 muhoo: justin_smith: thanks for that. i have to say, default-sanitize has to be the most referentially-transparent function evr

16:46 justin_smith: muhoo: heh

16:46 hyPiRion: I wonder when my patch will be merged in

16:46 http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1134 -- soon its one year birthday!

16:47 justin_smith: muhoo: pull requests welcome of course - I may add some stuff to store / retrieve requests from the fs or db, but really once it is a map of generic clojure readables anybody can do that stuff

16:47 * technomancy bakes a cake

16:47 Bronsa: bitemyapp: it's labeled 1.6 on jira so.. I guess there's still hope

16:47 muhoo: justin_smith: it looks pretty damn good. lots of hairy java stuff in there i'm glad i didn't have to deal with

16:48 hyPiRion: technomancy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAiVsbXVP6k ?

16:48 muhoo: justin_smith: only thing that might be good is some kind of queue/buffer if requests come blasting in too fast, so they all get queued to get saved

16:48 TimMc: justin_smith: Sure, but the base64 *output* is all ASCII.

16:48 justin_smith: muhoo: that is done already when you conj on an atom, no? or does the swap! block until it succeeds

16:49 muhoo: hyPiRion: the old italian saying is, that the pope asked michaelangelo when the sistine chapel would be ready, and michaelangelo replied "when it's done"

16:49 justin_smith: TimMc: true

16:50 muhoo: yeah, maybe the default method should put the swap in a future, so that the request continues immediately regardless of storage questions

16:50 hyPiRion: muhoo: Wish I could tell that to my boss

16:50 justin_smith: or even the lib could do the store action in a future, so all implementations benefit from that logic

16:50 muhoo: hyPiRion: it's funnier in italian. the punch line is "quand'e' finische" (sp)

16:51 llasram: muhoo: As someone who doesn't know any Italian, why does that make it funnier...?

16:52 hyPiRion: muhoo: I wonder the same thing as llasram does

16:52 devn: I can't brain good today. What is the function where, when you operate over the sequence with a predice, it returns the first item where the predicate is true?

16:52 predicate*

16:53 justin_smith: some

16:53 oh, that returns the return value

16:53 amalloy: well, it's (comp first filter)

16:53 hyPiRion: (first (filter actually

16:53 zing

16:53 devn: yeah, i could swear there was a built-in that did what im talking about, but maybe not

16:54 amalloy: devn: some comes close, in that it works when (f x) is either x or falsey

16:54 justin_smith: is a future that never gets derefed guaranteed to be run?

16:54 devn: amalloy: oh right, that's probably what I'm remembering

16:54 amalloy: justin_smith: yes

16:54 muhoo: hyPiRion: llasram: it's the rhythm of it, it has a very dismissive aroma to it.

16:54 hyPiRion: ah

16:55 muhoo: technomancy: and it's still open? http://bugs.mysql.com/bug.php?id=20786 yikes.

16:55 amalloy: insofar as any future is guaranteed to be run, of course. who knows, maybe someone fork-bombed your system already :)

16:55 justin_smith: cool

16:56 muhoo: devn: take-while?

16:56 ,(doc take-while)

16:56 clojurebot: "([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of successive items from coll while (pred item) returns true. pred must be free of side-effects."

16:56 justin_smith: muhoo: taking your suggestion, the new version of groundhog does the storage in a future so request handling is less likely to be hurt

16:57 muhoo: ,(take-while (partial not= 5) [1 2 3 4 5 6 7]) ; devn

16:57 clojurebot: (1 2 3 4)

16:58 devn: muhoo: no, that would take all of the elements up to the matching element

16:58 justin_smith: muhoo: https://clojars.org/noisesmith/groundhog version with that fix is up

16:59 muhoo: oh, i see. hmm, an inverse of it. i dunno, partition-by and second maybe

16:59 nm, first filter is prolly easier

16:59 amalloy: muhoo: i think you are just woefully confused about what he wants

16:59 muhoo: justin_smith: cool

16:59 amalloy: i had it inverted, yes

17:00 * muhoo needs a nap now

17:03 blr: hey, potentially weird one, has anyone moved a ring based app to vagrant and found the response times skyrocket?

17:04 180-200ms response running locally, 3-4s response in vagrant

17:05 TimMc: hyPiRion: Oh man, that video!

17:05 THAT VIDEO!

17:06 And that bug thread makes me want to punch everything, but particularly one person.

17:09 bitemyapp: Bronsa: that RestFn patch would ameliorate some pain in one of the few places I ever wrote performance sensitive Clojure code.

17:09 hyPiRion: TimMc: you sounded terribly excited over that video

17:09 bitemyapp: because of that damn patch, I'm now paranoid about using destructuring in loops.

17:09 TimMc: MySQL has conferences, it's not out of the question.

17:09 punching can happen.

17:10 I will say that it really just reinforces my, "yawn, just use Postgres" attitude about RDBMS though.

17:10 bbloom: bitemyapp: i dunno if you saw, but Alex Miller expanded my patch to remove even more cruft :-)

17:11 TimMc: hyPiRion: I don't know if excited is the right word. I have a mixture of feelings.

17:11 I appreciate how over the top it is.

17:11 bitemyapp: bbloom: I think I did, actually.

17:11 bbloom: AM makes me happy :)

17:11 bbloom: i think that's basically his job now

17:11 bitemyapp: he's probably the only person to make Klishin happy, if he's capable of being so at all.

17:11 bbloom: to make you, bitemyapp, and the rest of the clojure community happy

17:12 bitemyapp: bbloom: that was my understanding from my conversation with him.

17:12 does anybody have proof Klishin is capable of happiness?

17:12 I need to settle a bet.

17:13 `cbp`: I'm still pimping out Revise.

17:14 technomancy: you're taking a cut of Revise's sex worker earnings in exchange for protection?

17:14 TMI dude

17:14 bitemyapp: technomancy: identifying Clojure + MongoDB users and encouraging them to ditch the sucky part of that equation.

17:15 bbloom: i haven't looked at rethinkdb at all... i guess you like it?

17:15 technomancy: ok, but can you do it without distasteful metaphors?

17:16 `cbp: bitemyapp: :-)

17:17 bitemyapp: sadly no issues yet. I've not much of a clue what to enhance it with next!

17:19 bbloom: this makes me giggle: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6692191

17:20 TimMc: haha

17:22 `cbp: bitemyapp: on the look for more projects btw while i wait for the bugs to come down raining/think up of stuff to add :-)

17:27 logic_prog: is there a way to do a "map" of sorts, but keeps an extra "state" var?

17:27 for example, suppose I wnat to define a funciton mapping list 1 to list 2,

17:27 where the second list is an accumulating sum of the first list

17:27 now, I know there is reductions

17:28 but I'd prefer to have a generic map which allowed me to do a "stateful map"

17:28 technomancy: that sounds exactly like reduce

17:28 logic_prog: I am doing a bad job explaining this.

17:29 I have a list of objects {:width ... :height ... :data }

17:29 now, I want to create a new list of objects, where the :y field of each object is 0

17:29 TimMc: `cbp: You're looking for projects?

17:29 logic_prog: and the :x field of each object is the sum of all previous :width 's

17:29 `cbp: TimMc: yeah! I gotta go now unfortunately ttyl

17:29 logic_prog: thus, I need a "stateful" map, where I somehow keep track of the sum of all previous :width's

17:30 joegallo: technomancy: you can lead a horse to water, eh?

17:30 technomancy: (reduce (fn [[m sum] x] [(assoc m :width 0) (+ sum(:width x))]) objects)

17:31 amalloy: technomancy: reductions there, not reduce, since he wants the lot of them

17:31 plus you don't have a correct initial value

17:31 but that's the general idea, logic_prog

17:32 logic_prog: ?

17:32 technomancy: amalloy: I blame lack of paredit

17:32 TimMc: Easy enough to do with a lazy-seq.

17:32 amalloy: yeah, actually usually easier that way, TimMc

17:32 TimMc: lazy-loop, perhaps?

17:32 Haven't looked at the docstring, but it sounds close.

17:32 amalloy: well, of course! but not everyone already has useful in their project.clj

17:32 TimMc: pshaw, nonsense

17:33 seangrove: technomancy: what kind of backwater 17th-century irc client are you using that doesn't have paredit built-in?

17:33 logic_prog: ( {:width 20, :node "Hello"} {:width 30, :node "World"} {:width 20 :node "Tech}) -> {:w 20, ;x 0, "Hello"}, {:w 30, :x 20, :node "World"}, {:w 20, :x 50, :node "Tech"}

17:34 amalloy: logic_prog: you've already described what you want. nobody is confused about that. technomancy and TimMc have both given you answers; if they're not sufficient you'll need to explain why rather than restating the problem

17:35 technomancy: seangrove: cuneiform on clay tablets basically

17:37 TimMc: IRC over avian carrier

17:41 seangrove: technomancy: Well, it does have its charm, I can't deny that

17:45 technomancy: seangrove: you gotta ghost your alt nick, man. it's killing the whole tab completion thing.

17:45 seangrove: technomancy: hrmm....

17:46 There we go, back to erc it is

17:47 technomancy: nice

17:47 devn: best way to have an optional not-found in a fn? assuming [x y & not-found] -> (when (seq not-found) (first not-found))

17:48 logic_prog: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/7363231 <-- is there a more idiomatic way to write this "stateful map" ?

17:48 devn: err, nevermind -- no need for &, just have a separate arity

17:48 justin_smith: devn: [x y & [not-found]] (or not-found ...)

17:48 logic_prog: perferably an answer with more detail than "yes, use reductions"

17:48 justin_smith: devn: or that :)

17:49 devn: i think im gonna do ([x y] ...) ([x y not-found] ...)

17:49 TimMc: logic_prog: If ans starts off as [] and you use conj, you can avoid the reverse.

17:50 yeoj___: i'm trying to reference a classpath on the command line and it's telling my my jar file is not availebl.... i clearly see it is in t he directory it's referencing. What can i check?

17:50 it's missing jtds.jar for database access.... is there a different one for 64 bit unix as compared to 32 bit windows or something? I just copied it over....

17:51 logic_prog: TimMc: is that still linear time?

17:54 justin_smith: vecs are not linear time, but they are not slow either

17:55 probably faster than building a linked list and reversing it, if you go to any significant size

17:56 ,(time (do (reduce conj [] (range 10000)) ()))

17:57 clojurebot: "Elapsed time: 15.127097 msecs"\n()

17:57 justin_smith: (time (do (reverse (reduce conj () (range 10000))) ()))

17:57 ,(time (do (reverse (reduce conj () (range 10000))) ()))

17:57 clojurebot: "Elapsed time: 5.252221 msecs"\n()

17:57 justin_smith: oops

17:58 TimMc: You'd want to use criterium for that. :-)

17:58 justin_smith: yeah, just doing a quick dirty

17:59 logic_prog: ,(time (do (reverse (reduce cons () (range 10000))) ()))

17:59 clojurebot: #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>

17:59 justin_smith: on my machine, with repeated invocations the reverse on () takes about twice as long as the []

18:00 logic_prog: args are in the wrong order for cons sadly

18:00 ,(time (do (reverse (reduce #(cons %2 %) () (range 10000))) ()))

18:00 clojurebot: "Elapsed time: 5.998524 msecs"\n()

18:01 S11001001: justin_smith: is that with cons chains, or IPersistentLists?

18:01 justin_smith: S11001001: the cons and conj versions with () as the base case were giving me about the same results

18:02 with [] / conj being just slower than twice as fast

18:02 S11001001: ,(class (conj '() 42))

18:02 clojurebot: clojure.lang.PersistentList

18:02 S11001001: ok

18:04 justin_smith: the list/cons ones are much more variable in the time they take

18:04 I am assuming because of the difference in the allocation pattern?

18:04 (many small allocations, while [] allocates less often, with bigger chunks)

18:05 TimMc: logic_prog: If you want it to be lazy, you can look at clojure.core/lazy-seq

18:05 Just wrap lazy-seq around the recursive call.

18:14 ,((fn f [x] (lazy-seq (cons x (f (inc x))))) 5) ;; logic_prog, for example, this is a simple lazy counter; the current counter value is state

18:14 clojurebot: (5 6 7 8 9 ...)

18:15 TimMc: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/lazy-seq

18:21 TEttinger: ,(iterate inc 5) ;; TimMc, what's the difference between that and this? I'm curious

18:21 clojurebot: (5 6 7 8 9 ...)

18:24 TimMc: Not a whole lot. :-P

18:24 S11001001: TEttinger: the cons x and lazy-seq can swap, and probably are so in iterate

18:25 TimMc: Yep.

18:26 amalloy: S11001001: note that (cons x (lazy-seq ...)) has caused problems in iterate, because (realized? (cons x y)) throws an exception, and people expect iterate to return a lazy-seq

18:26 S11001001: amalloy: apt punishment for using realized? :]

18:27 amalloy: well yes

18:27 but if it's going to be defined, it might as well work

18:27 S11001001: that's not the core lib philosophy IIUC

18:28 "...unless it impacts performance in some way"

18:28 amalloy: the core lib's philosophy does not embrace "functions we write should work"?

18:30 S11001001: I don't even think this is a "library works" problem. realized? needs a lazy-seq. iterate doesn't return one. It's not on either of those if people are mistaken about what iterate returns or realized? expects

18:30 amalloy: well, realized? needs an IPending, which embraces lazy-seq, promise, future, and so on

18:31 it could very well include Cons, and return true in that case

18:31 easy enough to make Cons implement IPending

18:31 S11001001: it could include Integer and return true in that case

18:32 seems like a case of whether or not to silence type errors

18:32 amalloy: not so. you can't make Integer implement an interface

18:32 S11001001: you can make realized? widen its expectations though

18:32 amalloy: sure, but that costs performance, which you were saying is the point

18:33 making Cons implement IPending costs literally zero performance

18:33 S11001001: no, sorry, that was about something different. I was saying that the core lib will abandon correctness in some cases to gain performance. But then I thought, this isn't even a case where the core lib is incorrect, it's a library user error.

18:35 amalloy: S11001001: i disagree. iterate's docstring promises to return a lazy sequence, and realized? promises to work for a lazy sequence

18:35 bitemyapp: just replaced 7 lines of code with one. My clojure foo is improving.

18:35 yeoj___: can anyone explain to me how this is possible; it's entirely clear its on the classpath: https://www.refheap.com/20577

18:35 rasmusto_: bitemyapp: but do they do the same things?

18:35 amalloy: i don't mind saying that it's a bug in iterate, rather than in realized?, but then lots of correct-looking code that happens to return something less-lazy becomes incorrect

18:36 mrevil: how do I know if a core.async routine is done?

18:36 bitemyapp: rasmusto_: precisely the same thing.

18:36 well, one's a loop/recur, one's a reduce, but you know, same results.

18:37 rasmusto_: bitemyapp: :), also, I giggled at clojure-foo

18:37 S11001001: amalloy: how about both; fix iterate doc, extend IPending :)

18:38 bitemyapp: rasmusto_: https://www.refheap.com/20578

18:38 admittedly the old code was pretty damn bad, but you get the idea :)

18:39 amalloy: i wonder whether ambrosebs's annotated version of core.clj would catch (realized? (iterate f x)) as a type error

18:39 bitemyapp: amalloy: it should, if it doesn't.

18:39 rasmusto_: bitemyapp: I have somethign where I do a (merge-with concat seq-of-maps), what's special about pop-merge?

18:39 bitemyapp: rasmusto_: (set ...)

18:39 amalloy: bitemyapp: do you know where i can find that?

18:40 rasmusto_: bitemyapp: ok, that's what it looked like :)

18:40 bitemyapp: (merge-with (comp set concat) seq-of-maps) ?

18:40 bitemyapp: amalloy: https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/typed/base_env.clj#L733

18:40 amalloy: rasmusto_: merge-with into

18:40 rasmusto_: bitemyapp: er, I guess that wouldn't leave the atoms untouched

18:41 amalloy: (concat (concat (concat ...))) is disastrous if you build enough of it

18:41 bitemyapp: rasmusto_: #(into #{} %) ?

18:41 rasmusto_: Ohh, I see it now. Thanks.

18:47 hyPiRion: bitemyapp: isn't that just set?

18:48 * hyPiRion reads the lines above.

18:49 bitemyapp: hyPiRion: more or less.

18:49 well, (hash-map ...) isn't equivalent to (into {} ...), right?

18:50 ,(apply hash-map [:a 1])

18:50 clojurebot: {:a 1}

18:50 bitemyapp: ,(into {} [[:a 1] [:b 2]])

18:50 clojurebot: {:a 1, :b 2}

18:50 amalloy: bitemyapp: right, but for set and hash-set it is equivalent

18:53 bitemyapp: amalloy: the problem here is that it's not just a set, pop-merge is keys to set values.

18:53 so reducing a "dumb set" isn't good enough.

18:54 the idea being that you get a set of all known values that existed for a given key across all hash maps.

18:54 amalloy: bitemyapp: i'm not paying any attention to the full problem, i'm just agreeing that #(into #{} %) is identical in every observable way to the function set

18:54 bitemyapp: amalloy: wish you and Raynes were up here in SF for the meetup tonight.

18:54 amalloy: yeah the problem is a bit different from that.

18:54 amalloy: what's the meetup topic?

18:55 bitemyapp: (merge-with pop-merge {:a 1} {:a 2}) => {:a #{1 2}}

18:55 amalloy: something something big data doc brown something somethimg arrays.

18:55 I don't even care about the topic per se, I just show up to talk to people.

18:55 amalloy: sure

18:56 rasmusto_: ,(merge-with set {:a 1} {:a 2})

18:56 clojurebot: #<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$set>

18:57 bitemyapp: rasmusto_: nice try, I'm not that dumb :)

18:57 rasmusto_: that can work if you use Fluokitten though!

18:57 rasmusto_: wtb some boxes

18:57 bitemyapp: functors for the fucking win.

18:58 lpvb: does anyone mind reviewing my code and telling me where I can improve?

18:58 http://cljbin.com/paste/527c2933e4b02f49e2e851d3

18:59 excuse my noobiness

18:59 technomancy: is that the new Adobe Source Pro face?

19:00 lpvb: letting rest and first should become a single destructuring let

19:01 lpvb: let [[y & ys] sequence] ?

19:01 hyPiRion: lpvb: There's a lot of loop and recurs. Generally you can put them into separate functions, and perhaps even convert them to reduces if composed correctly

19:01 rasmusto: lpvb: yeah

19:01 technomancy: indeed

19:02 bitemyapp: lpvb: reduce is your friend. learn it, live it, love it.

19:03 technomancy: bitemyapp: doesn't seem to be an accumulator; maybe doseq instead

19:03 lpvb: so with a reduce, I would still use a vector of a stack and a sequence to reduce over?

19:03 technomancy: oh, nm

19:03 lpvb: I tried doseq

19:03 but idk how to have a stack

19:03 technomancy: no, reduce is needed for stack

19:04 lpvb: I would separate out overall flow from the individual side-effects happening. different functions.

19:05 lpvb: I also get a nullpointer exception when I change the line under make-example to

19:05 (let [menu-bar (create-menu-bar ["File" ["Open" (fn [] (println "Menu Item clicked."))

19:05 I don't really know where it's coming from

19:06 I have trouble reading the stack trace

19:06 joegallo: paste us the stacktrace

19:06 we won't have trouble reading it

19:06 and someday you won't either! :D

19:06 amalloy: (inc joegallo)

19:06 lazybot: ⇒ 2

19:06 technomancy: joegallo: brave words my friend

19:06 we'll see if you're so brave when faced with three pages of javax.swing.*

19:07 joegallo: lol

19:07 lpvb: joegallo: http://pastebin.com/L6yNejgr

19:07 amalloy: terrifying indeed, technomancy

19:09 lpvb: and I wouldn't be trying to create a tree of menu stuff with a macro right? I read that if you can do it at runtime then it's better than using a macro

19:13 devn: I have a coll of maps: [{:a 1 :b 2} {:c 3 :d 4}] -- I have a second coll of maps: [{:a 1 :b 100} {:c 101 :d 102}]. for each map in the first coll, I want to attempt to find a map in the second coll whose value of the same key in first coll matches. When I find a map who has the same key/value pair, I want to merge those two maps with the same value for :a, for instance.

19:14 justin_smith: devn: for starters, group-by should help

19:14 that is, for finding all the maps in the second group with an :a of 1 etc.

19:15 * devn falls over.

19:15 justin_smith: (get (group-by :a second-group) 1)

19:15 devn: thank you. i dont brane good today

19:15 rasmusto: whoa, using a keyword as a group-by predicate ;o

19:16 justin_smith: its good for when your map is really a two way relation

19:16 which is devn's case

19:16 rasmusto: ,(group-by :a {:a 1} {:b 2 :a 3})

19:16 devn: rasmusto: yeah, keywords are callable

19:16 clojurebot: #<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$group-by>

19:16 rasmusto: ,(group-by :a [{:a 1} {:b 2 :a 3}])

19:16 clojurebot: {1 [{:a 1}], 3 [{:a 3, :b 2}]}

19:17 rasmusto: devn: yeah, I use it like that all the time, just not in the context of group-by

19:53 devn: simplest way to get from {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} to [:a 1 :b 2 :c 3]?

19:53 brehaut: devn: maintaining order?

19:54 devn: *nod*

19:54 brehaut: haha

19:54 devn: c'est impossible!

19:54 bitemyapp: devn: (vec (mapcat concat ...))

19:55 devn: brehaut: why do you laugh?

19:55 bitemyapp: thanks

19:56 brehaut: devn: maps dont strictly support ordering right? its just an accidental implementation detail that some maps will seq in the order the keys are defined

19:56 otherwise i think ##(mapcat identity {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})

19:56 lazybot: ⇒ (:a 1 :c 3 :b 2)

19:57 metellus: or ##(apply concat {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})

19:57 lazybot: ⇒ (:a 1 :c 3 :b 2)

19:58 bitemyapp: metellus: ahhh you bastard.

19:58 devn: golfing FTW

19:58 so yeah, well, i guess it's time for a sorted map

19:58 * brehaut goes to find a log

19:58 bitemyapp: devn: well...yes.

19:59 devn: no wonder clojure.data.csv spits things out and slurps them up as [[a b c] ...]

19:59 rasmusto: ,(apply concat (sort {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}))

19:59 clojurebot: (:a 1 :b 2 :c ...)

20:00 bitemyapp: oh, yes, one of those problems where I can't repro the test failure in the REPL. Cool.

20:00 devn: i of course turned my rows of a CSV into a map using the headers

20:00 rasmusto: you can't REPLoduce it?

20:00 Raynes: rasmusto: gtfo

20:00 bitemyapp: devn: csv isn't rows of associative data structures, they're row/column.

20:01 * Raynes points at the door.

20:01 rasmusto: Raynes: it's that time of night

20:01 bitemyapp: rasmusto: AAAAAAGH

20:01 * Raynes stares at rasmusto severely.

20:01 Apage43: :{

20:01 devn: bitemyapp: i'm well aware, but it's pretty common to manipulate the result of reading a CSV as a collection of associative things

20:02 like they're records, y'know?

20:03 bitemyapp: devn: I can buy that, but still.

20:03 also, I would just like to make it known that the problem I am coping with would be cleared up in a jiffy if I had a type system helping me out.

20:03 devn: maybe i'll use array-map

20:03 rasmusto: devn: I do a lot of (zipmap (first csv) (apply map list (rest csv)))

20:03 bitemyapp: because it's very obviously me propagating the wrong type in some kind of edge case

20:03 I just can't find *WHERE*

20:03 devn: bitemyapp: simple-check

20:04 bitemyapp: devn: nah I have data repro'ing it. I mean I need an actual type system

20:04 to help me untangle where my fuck-up is.

20:04 prn only goes so far.

20:06 Squee-D: Holas

20:06 technomancy: http://p.hagelb.org/slamhound-nrepl-discover.html <- I think I can throw out slamhound.el now?

20:06 devn: rasmusto: yeah, same here (let [[headers & rows] (csv/read ...)] (map #(-> (zipmap headers %) (walk/keywordize-keys)))

20:06 err put rows on the end ^

20:06 Squee-D: Member counts gone up quite a bit in the last year :D

20:07 rasmusto: devn: I like keywordize-keys, I'll use that :)

20:08 bitemyapp: no wait, still no repro at another layer of the problem

20:08 DAFUQ

20:09 wait a second

20:09 wait

20:09 a

20:09 fucking

20:09 DATOMIC YOU MOTHERFUCKER

20:09 map? is false for Datomic entities.

20:09 I'm going to go cry bitter tears now.

20:10 Apage43: ah

20:10 wow

20:10 technomancy: cemerick: am I going to have to wait to the conj before you spill the beans on your nrepl-discover-like thing?

20:10 bitemyapp: datomic.query.EntityMap Dicks.

20:10 What a fucking dick move.

20:10 this is like the third fucking type (map? EntityMap) => false has bitten me.

20:10 third time*

20:11 (defn mappish? [v] (or (map? v) (= (type v) datomic.query.EntityMap)))

20:11 fuckers.

20:11 rasmusto: I do the muscle memory thing sometimes too :), types probably would have helped here

20:12 technomancy: I feel like I talked three separate people into trying nrepl-discover over the past few weeks... has anyone used it successfully?

20:12 bitemyapp: rasmusto: hum, you responding to me?

20:13 rasmusto: bitemyapp: yeah, on time -> type

20:13 bitemyapp: rasmusto: yeah, it would've.

20:13 deeeefinitely.

20:13 that was friggin' dumb.

20:14 joyously I think the code still broken, just in new and interesting ways.

20:15 hrm, query sets aren't sequential either.

20:16 yeah this is awesome.

20:17 Apage43: maybe throw https://github.com/ztellman/collection-check at it

20:17 not that you can do anything about what it says

20:17 but knowing

20:18 bitemyapp: I'll look into that later, don't really have time to integrate a library.

20:18 just kinda generally mad.

20:18 Apage43: you going to be at the meetup?

20:18 Apage43: what when

20:18 bitemyapp: Apage43: tonight, 6 pm, weather corporation.

20:18 Apage43: oh

20:18 no

20:18 bitemyapp: sorry, Climate corp

20:19 Apage43: :(

20:19 Apage43: its quite a trek

20:19 bitemyapp: Apage43: where are you?

20:20 Apage43: Sunnyvale/Mountain View

20:20 bitemyapp: oh damn.

20:20 Apage43: get on the meetup group so you get reminders

20:21 Apage43: i'm on it, maybe my email stuff isn't set up right

20:23 bitemyapp: hrm. you can't assoc entity maps either.

20:23 ...oooo...kay...

20:23 Apage43: man

20:24 bitemyapp: I don't know how I avoided all these fuck-ups for this long

20:24 at all

20:24 but types would've saved me this belated confusion.

20:24 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/datomic/IzRSK9e7VJo

20:25 so I'm not the only one.

20:25 technomancy: types...or just not inventing a new thing and using a map to begin with

20:26 Apage43: there

20:26 meetup is now pointed at the email address I actually read

20:27 sritchie: have you guys seen cljs errors like this? Uncaught InvalidStateError: An attempt was made to use an object that is not, or is no longer, usable.

20:27 I'm worried that I may not be hooking in to the proper event to load stuff.

20:27 bitemyapp: coercion for the win. My code works now.

20:27 bastids.

20:27 sritchie: I see this intermittently, and sometimes, on a websocket, that the websocket was CLOSING or CLOSED… but if I manually call my init function at the console, I'm good to go

20:28 bitemyapp: sritchie: maybe need to wrap socket access with (ensure-socket s) type dilly to resuscitate when it goes down?

20:29 sritchie: bitemyapp: write that func, you mean

20:29 ?

20:30 bitemyapp: sritchie: yeah, but my approach is usually to hit things with a hammer until they work so that might not be what you want.

20:30 sritchie: if you want to *investigate* why, do what you can to break the socket to see if it reproduces the errors.

20:31 sritchie: ugh, when I put the socket in an atom, I get an InvalidStateError - attempt was mode to use an object that is not, or is no longer, usable

20:32 bitemyapp: sritchie: wrapping it in an atom in cljs causes this? what happens if it's bare?

20:33 sritchie: let me show you my pattern I'm using

20:34 https://gist.github.com/sritchie/7364870

20:34 bitemyapp: that's my pattern for initialization

20:34 without the atom

20:34 whoops, forget about that extra @

20:35 so if I do that, I get Uncaught InvalidStateError: An attempt was made to use an object that is not, or is no longer, usable.

20:35 but then,

20:35 if from the console I call init manually,

20:36 ugh, now I'm confused

20:36 bitemyapp: sritchie: I don't like the bare-def at all.

20:36 sritchie: I think you should wrap access to it with functions that handle init-if-nil.

20:37 (atom nil) for init state in the def.

20:37 Awww yisssss http://www.rethinkdb.com/docs/install-drivers/

20:37 sritchie: okay

20:37 every damned example has bare defs

20:37 bitemyapp: sritchie: I know. I think they're a bad idea. Might be superstition on my part but I've had AOT and other things break because of bare defs.

20:37 so I use a safer/more fn oriented pattern.

20:37 sritchie: well, this is in cljs

20:38 bitemyapp: that would make me more, not less, paranoid.

20:38 blr: does weavejester/james reeves visit #clojure? hoping he'll have an explanation for this lein ring weirdness :)

20:39 bitemyapp: blr: not recently but it happens. You're best off just asking in here and maybe following up with a github issue if you can't resolve it.

20:39 xeqi: $seen weavejester

20:39 lazybot: weavejester was last seen talking on #clojure 14 hours and 58 minutes ago.

20:39 blr: ah thanks xeqi

20:40 oh xeqi, kerodon is great thank you, just started a project with it and trying my best to do outside in TDD :)

20:41 bitemyapp: it's a bit vague for a github issue unfortunately, just some inexplicable latency when running lein ring server-headless in a VM that I _dont_ get starting ring in a repl on the same box

20:42 xeqi: blr: I'm glad its useful

20:44 sritchie: ah!

20:44 bitemyapp:

20:44 java.util.concurrent.RejectedExecutionException: Task java.util.concurrent.FutureTask@4e77f4e7 rejected from java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor@256f91f0[Terminated, pool size = 0, active threads = 0, queued tasks = 0, completed tasks = 279]

20:44 in the logs

20:44 for httpkit

20:44 which is VERY troubling, actually, since I only have a single browser connected :)

20:45 oh. I bet i need to destroy this thing on unload.

21:07 dobry-den: don't worry about kernel_task eating 2gb memory, they said.

21:07 osx will free it up if it needs it, they said.

21:07 arrdem: silly memory manager...

21:10 dobry-den: not to mention i have 3 `main` apps running somehow http://i.imgur.com/csMgzKs.png

21:10 but ending one to free up memory is a game of minesweeper

21:21 sritchie: bitemyapp: found part of my issue...

21:21 these http-kit channels are reporting open,

21:21 but printing like this

21:21 #<AsyncChannel 0.0.0.0/0.0.0.0:8080<->null>

21:26 amalloy: dobry-den: jps -v

21:36 bitemyapp: sritchie: ouch.

21:36 sritchie: https://github.com/http-kit/http-kit/issues/91

21:36 filed a bug

21:36 tough times :)

21:37 bitemyapp: complaining about my own bad code at meetups is fun :)

21:37 sritchie: but yeah, messing with the proper callbacks fixed my websocket

21:37 clj meetup going on now?

21:37 bitemyapp: sritchie: yep, speaker just started talking about Doc Brown (array store)

21:37 sritchie: nice

21:41 cemerick: technomancy: ech, forgot about it entirely

21:42 allenj12: hey if i want to let something but i want it to be bound based on a condition how would i do that? for example something like "(let (if (= v 3) [in 2] [in 6]))"

21:43 seancorfield: (let [in (if (= v 3) 2 4)] ...)

21:43 allenj12: seancorfield; oh thnx!

21:44 technomancy: cemerick: thinking of pushing an 0.0.1 of nrepl-discover

21:51 `cbp: TimMc: hi

21:51 cemerick: technomancy: I don't have any objections, I don't have any working alternative a.t.m.

21:51 technomancy: FWIW, this is what Sam and I sketched out: https://gist.github.com/cemerick/7365536

21:51 bitemyapp: `cbp: http://www.rethinkdb.com/docs/install-drivers/

21:52 `cbp: bitemyapp: success

21:52 cemerick: basically eliminating the "discovery" part, making it all a bit more explicit and driven by connecting clients vs. classpath

21:52 technomancy: cemerick: looks more imperative

21:53 cemerick: technomancy: which part?

21:53 technomancy: cemerick: the exclamation points I guess

21:53 cemerick: ah

21:53 well, "more flexible" ;-P

21:54 ssutch: does anyone know of any oauth 2 provider support for friend?

21:54 cemerick: technomancy: I didn't want the ops or the lifecycle to be tied to the classpath / load-time

21:54 ssutch: (eg an oauth 2 server, for providing REST api authentication)

21:55 `cbp: bitemyapp: how fares the error handling?

21:55 cemerick: er, discovery-time

21:55 technomancy: cemerick: yeah, I punted and require all op-containing nses to be loaded too

21:55 and then just do (all-ns)

21:56 I'll give this a closer look though, thanks

21:56 cemerick: technomancy: Also, Sam apparently has a use case where he wants to have an op totally change its effect on demand (not surprising given his performance stuff?), so this seemed more natural than swapping in different impls of underlying fns, etc

21:57 The namespace-discovery stuff should be able to sit on top, if you're interested in that.

21:57 technomancy: cemerick: the big thing is agreeing on a client/server vocabulary though

21:58 cemerick: That made me comfortable enough to decide to put it into nREPL straight away...though, of course, it hasn't actually happened :-P

21:58 technomancy: yup, for sure. This stuff is comparatively minor

21:58 technomancy: I don't think the actual handler stuff is all that interesting compared to that

21:58 no offense =)

21:58 cemerick: hah, none taken!

21:58 The aim is to make nREPL itself the most boring thing possible

21:59 ssutch: ah, im actually watching cemerick's clojurewest talk, and at the end, my question was pretty much answered

21:59 cemerick: I'm quite happy that it's generally been static for so long at this point and hasn't inspired angry fixing, etc.

22:00 ssutch: sorry, didn't notice the question :-) Yeah, friend-oauth2, it's demoed on http://friend-demo.herokuapp.com

22:01 ssutch: cemerick that implements an oauth 2 provider? (eg create client, access tokens, refresh tokens, all that crap)

22:01 cemerick: ssutch: it's client side, as is all of friend

22:03 ssutch: right, so i can log in with github, which acquires my identity from github

22:03 just found https://github.com/pelle/clauth

22:04 bitemyapp: `cbp: no time for that yet.

22:05 `cbp: :-)

22:05 bitemyapp: `cbp: work craziness, trying to open source Datomic migration toolkit.

22:20 `cbp: soon *cringe*

22:21 `cbp: :-o

22:22 bitemyapp: `cbp: I know I need to do it.

22:22 `cbp: part of it is caution, I'd like to write tests reproducing various error cases first.

22:22 but I just need to write the damn code.

22:22 `cbp: what kind of errors are you thinking about

22:35 ToxicFrog: Hmm.

22:35 How do I distinguish between {:foo nil} and {}?

22:35 amalloy: &(doc contains?)

22:35 lazybot: ⇒ "([coll key]); Returns true if key is present in the given collection, otherwise returns false. Note that for numerically indexed collections like vectors and Java arrays, this tests if the numeric key is within the range of indexes. 'contains?' operates constant or ... https://www.refheap.com/20581

22:35 amalloy: &(doc get)

22:35 lazybot: ⇒ "([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present."

22:36 ToxicFrog: Awesome, thanks

23:00 muhoo: now that's the weirdest lein exception i've seen in a while: https://www.refheap.com/20582 fixed it by "lein clean" but wtf?

23:07 also, golf, this seems unnecessarily complicated https://www.refheap.com/20583

23:08 logic_prog: I'm writing a web app. Client side = clojurescript. Client side = apache + clojure/http-kit. I want to test for robustness, so I want some intermediate layer that fucks up ajax-requests + web-sockets. Suggestions?

23:26 devn: amalloy: Your memory palace is impressive.

23:28 amalloy: devn: a good memory, fast reading, and nimble fingers: a perfect storm for winning IRC karma

23:28 (what'd i do, though?)

23:29 devn: You're always around when I need a push in the right direction. I've been mucking with clojure since 2009 and I still find myself coming in here when I'm having writer's block, and you're always there to help.

23:29 I wish Clojure has a "Clojure Hero Aware" thing like the Ruby community to give people in the community credit for helping people.

23:30 Award*

23:30 amalloy: haha aww

23:30 devn: It's a noble thing to do, and I don't expect most people do it for recognition, but some people deserve it, and you're one of them.

23:30 <3

23:31 amalloy: thanks a lot, devn. it's nice to be appreciated

23:31 devn: I was thinking about it w/r/t technomancy and cemerick the other night, too. Phil's emacs-starter-kit, leiningen, and the list goes on.

23:32 There are a lot of people who just deserve a round of applause, y'know?

23:32 muhoo: indeed

23:32 (inc amalloy)

23:32 lazybot: ⇒ 75

23:33 muhoo: devn: we could always set up bitcoin addresses for 'em, and maybe integrate that into lazybot

23:34 amalloy: yeah, i heard Raynes discovered recently he's been getting money from git-tip for a while now

23:34 muhoo: huh, never heard of git-tip

23:35 amalloy: incidentally, since i've got all this community goodwill at the moment, does anyone know of some interesting jobs available? clojure would be a plus, of course, but i'm sure i can learn anything

23:35 muhoo: :-)

23:36 always looking for alternatives to capitalism.

23:57 arohner: amalloy: are you interested in CircleCI?

23:58 amalloy: don't know much about them, arohner, but i'll take a look. are you involved?

23:59 arohner: yes. founder/cto :-)

23:59 allen@circleci.com, jobs@circleci.com

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