#clojure log - Jan 26 2013

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1:24 warz: hrm, how do you import an AOT compiled class in seperate clj file? (gen-class)

1:24 would i import it like a java class?

1:26 i might just need to go with java for this stuff, haha. i was going to try to be cool and use clojure.

2:41 tenpaiyomi: Quick question…just learning, so it's a bit of a newbish question, but I am trying to do an if-else statement, and I understand that it needs to be setup in a scenario like (if cond true_result false_result), but I'm not entirely sure how I would set it up in a scenario that my either of my true or false needs to be more than a single action. Like, say I'm wanting to perform an action on 2 different variables, each on a separate lin

2:41 I've tried wrapping them in parenthesis, but that causes an error.

2:45 amalloy: tenpaiyomi: (do x y). but since most things in clojure are immutable, that's useful/necessary less often than you think so far

2:46 tenpaiyomi: amalloy: Thanks, I actually figured the do statement out, my only problem now is my get is returning nil, even though I verified that the value I am trying to get exists in my vector...

2:55 wei_: how do you build a cljs plugin for release to clojars?

2:55 e.g. I'm trying to push my fork of fetch, https://github.com/ibdknox/fetch, but I'm not sure how to compile the jar.

2:57 Frozenlock: The voices of Cljs are impenetrable "Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'xk' of undefined"

3:02 ivan: that usually means a property got renamed that you did not want renamed

3:02 you need externs for third-party libs. you probably already know this.

3:02 Frozenlock: Well yeah... but which one...

3:02 ivan: heh

3:03 Frozenlock: Yes, done... perhaps it was not taken while compiling...

3:03 Phonatacid: Hi. I'm trying to implement "augmented" agents and I'd like to have some advices about restructuring the args I use for creating them. Basically I'd like to add, say, 3 keyed arguments, provide default values for them, check for the presence of one of them (the preconditionnal way), then place all of them in the agent meta-map.

3:03 Basically my function's prototype would look like

3:03 (super-agent [state :myarg1 myval1 [:myarg2 myval2 :myarg3 myval3] & agentargs].

3:03 How can I achieve this ? (sorry for the spam)

3:25 wei_: suddenly getting a lot of these errors: WARNING: Use of undeclared Var jayq.core/clj->js at line 75 file:/Users/wei/.m2/repository/jayq/jayq/2.0.0/jayq-2.0.0.jar!/jayq/core.cljs.

3:26 using jayq 2.0.0 and lein-cljsbuild 0.3.0 (most recent everything, I think)

3:26 how do you see what version of clojurescript you're using?

4:36 rl: I'm trying to write a HTML template system. Is it possible to set a namespace in a paticular function to avoid naming collisions?

4:38 My idea is to produce a list of expressions, where each expression should evalulate to a string

4:39 but I want to disallow "global variable" access

4:43 magnars: I have a map, and I want to "map over it" to create another map with the same keys, but with all the values transformed by a function ... I'd wager there's some nice built in function to do just that?

4:43 tomoj: :D

4:45 there's no nice built in function

4:47 magnars: reduce it is, then - thanks!

4:47 tomoj: people usually do stuff like (into {} (for [[k v] m] [k (f v)])) I think

4:48 magnars: look at that - not too shabby. Thanks!

4:48 tomoj: reducers could someday do it

4:59 rl: hm so in clojure is there a way to not allow access to symbols that are not defined in a function?

5:04 i guess i can do some hack to real the template in a file, and in the documentation say to access variables for the template use (:key vars) or something....kind of ugly though =/

5:05 I still don't like the fact global variables can still be accessed <_<

5:06 amalloy: it's basically impossible to do anything without referring to globals

5:06 Sgeo: amalloy, Newspeak?

5:06 Well, at least, if the full Newspeak system was working properly

5:24 zby_home: (seq (.split #"," "one,two,three"))

5:24 is there an eval bot here?

5:25 tomoj: &(seq (.split #"," "one,two,three"))

5:25 lazybot: ⇒ ("one" "two" "three")

5:25 zby_home: thanks

5:26 at my interpreter it fails with: Exception Ambiguous match for ",\" \"one,two,three\"))" by #<Object[] [Ljava.lang.Object;@6a9cce0f>

5:26 is that a known feature?

5:30 tomoj: I think there's something wrong with your interpreter

5:51 cemerick: zby_home: are you squared away now?

5:53 zby_home: cemerick - more or less

5:54 I found that the problem was with the session wrapper

5:54 cemerick: how so?

5:55 zby_home: https://groups.google.com/d/topic/ring-clojure/0QslnWVSoNg/discussion

5:56 maybe it is something obvious - but I thought that (dev app (wrap-session handler)) is the same as (defn app [request] ((wrap-session handler) request))

5:56 it should be the same function

5:56 but the second at each request sends a new session cookie

5:56 cemerick: yeah, that makes sense

5:57 no other way for it to generate a constant key on a per-middleware-usage basis

5:58 an implicit side effect :-P

5:58 zby_home: aha

5:58 OK

5:59 I think there was one more thing

6:00 yeah: https://gist.github.com/4633508

6:01 cemerick ^^^

6:03 cemerick: and you're sure you're using the specified code and getting that behaviour? That would happen if you're getting a different session key on every request, as you discovered separately.

6:03 zby_home: that's a different one

6:04 the session key I eventually figured out how to workaround

6:04 that is not use 'defn'

6:06 I'll regenerate it here

6:06 and check it again

6:08 cemerick: zby_home: it's exactly the same thing; you're using defn to define secured-app

6:08 zby_home: OK - I'll check it here - I think I fixed that part yesterday

6:16 santo`: Is it good for Clojure to have multiple platforms?

6:17 ?

6:18 zby_home: cemerick - OK - so the last version that I save is this: http://nopaste.me/paste/7719855465103bb61f1a60

6:18 and it still have one problem

6:18 which is a 404 on the /admin page

6:18 I have not yet really analyzed it

6:19 but maybe it is something obvious

6:20 santo`: Can I run ClojureCLR on linux with mono?

6:22 Helllo?

6:22 ChongLi: santo`: hi

6:23 I believe it can run on mono

6:28 cemerick: zby_home: nice, Friend bug

6:29 change the /admin branch to: (friend/authorize #{::admin} (do response-map-here))

6:29 it's actually a bug/feature :-P

6:29 ejackson: :)

6:30 zby_home: response-map-here - literally or use my map there?

6:30 cemerick: the latter

6:31 I enhanced authorize a while back to accept an (optional) second map argument, that is merged into the unauthorized error stone if present.

6:31 zby_home: worked :)

6:32 cemerick: Perhaps a poor mimicry of the maps used for pre/postconditions in clojure fns.

6:32 zby_home: sorry - but that does not ring any bell for me

6:32 I started learning clojure just a week ago

6:32 cemerick: don't worry about it :-)

6:32 Thanks for the report

6:32 zby_home: :)

6:33 do you plan to add an example to the code?

6:33 I mean something that people like me could just copy

6:33 and run

6:33 this would be very useful

6:34 I did not know how to run the example from tests

6:34 cemerick: zby_home: working on it: https://friend-demo.herokuapp.com/

6:34 zby_home: great!

6:34 OK - thanks for your help

6:34 cemerick: thanks for your patience :-)

6:47 augustl: anyone got some suggestions for getting started using ZeroMQ from Clojure?

7:24 cemerick: zby_home: here's an issue you can track for that bug: https://github.com/cemerick/friend/issues/46

8:28 zeussphinx: ?

8:49 Thallasios_Xelon: hello :))

8:49 anyone using counterclockwise?

8:50 is there a way to run again without a new repl window?

8:50 i mean when i press run,to update the last on

9:17 rodnaph: core.logic - i'm trying to write a relation to assert a list contains unique values, but am completely stumped - can anyone help?

9:21 borkdude: does someone here has an org-mode/jekyll basic skeleton which I could use?

9:42 xumingmi`: anyone know Rich's email address? I have sent him the Clojure CA, want to send him an email to inform him

9:48 marcellus123: i want to use a jquery plugin that basically requires setting a bunch of callback methods on an object. is there a smooth way to handle this in clojurescript? Would it be horrible to just, in JS, make an object that just fires an event on each callback and then deal with them in cljs?

9:50 Thallasios_Xelon: <Thallasios_Xelon> anyone using counterclockwise?

9:50 <Thallasios_Xelon> is there a way to run again without a new repl window?

10:11 there is an update for counterclockwise

10:11 its very usefull

10:17 borkdude: Thallasios_Xelon what kind of update

10:22 hyPiRion: xumingmi`: You'll automatically pop up under http://clojure.org/contributing when it's been received

10:33 Frozenlock: Could anyone take a look at this externs.js file? The advanced compilation munge names it should not and I'm wondering if it's because I did something wrong in this file https://github.com/Frozenlock/envision-cljs/tree/master/src-cljs/externs .

11:09 tazle: should (line-seq (java.io.BufferedReader. *in*)) terminate at some point?

11:10 progo: not if the EOF isn't given

11:11 consider how 'cat', 'wc' etc work.

11:11 tazle: well, there should be an EOF with <-redirection

11:12 progo: Yes, unless it's a pipe

11:12 tazle: it's a file, and cat terminates but doseq on the above doesn't - weird

11:17 Thallasios_Xelon: is there a way to find the line of the error i know (pst)

11:23 jeremyheiler: tazle: is this essentially what you are doing? https://www.refheap.com/paste/8987

11:25 tazle: jeremyheiler: https://gist.github.com/4643117 is what I'm doing

11:25 and then lein run -m log4j-parser.cat < ../snippet

11:30 jeremyheiler: try: lein trampoline run -m log4j-parser.cat < ../snippet

11:30 tazle: then it terminates

11:31 dan: I'm new to clojure, and struggling to construct a map of of arithmetic inverses. This works as expected: (def inverse {:+ - :- +}), but this fails with an invalid token exception: (def inverse {:+ - :- + :/ *}). Is there some some kind of escape character I can use to create this map?

11:31 ChongLi: dan: yes

11:31 you can quote those symbols

11:31 jeremyheiler: tazle: what's happening here (i think) is that standard in with out trampoline is being directed to lein, not your code.

11:32 uvtc: dan: use '+ and '- (instead of bare + and -)

11:32 ChongLi: (def inverse {'+ '- '- '+ '/ '* '* '/})

11:32 dan: Ah, thanks to you both. That seems so obvious now. =)

11:32 tazle: jeremyheiler: and leiningen is then passing it on, and not closing things, it seems

11:32 ChongLi: &({'+ '- '- '+ '/ '* '* '/} '+)

11:32 lazybot: ⇒ -

11:33 * tazle wonders where to file a bug

11:33 jeremyheiler: tazle, you'll normally file bugs here: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues

11:34 but i dont' think this is a bug

11:34 tazle: how is it not a bug to not close the stdin of a program you run if you aren't going to write to it anymore?

11:35 progo: yes. An eof's an eof.

11:37 jeremyheiler: using trampoline allows you to run your project in its own jvm. if eof is never given to the stream with out trampoline, then why should it terminate?

11:38 progo: but the EOF is given in that case

11:54 augustl: anyone here ever used zeromq from clojure? Trying to figure out how to make leiningen use the .jar I compiled from the jzmq git repo.

11:58 no7hing: you could always install it in your local maven repo

11:58 augustl: no7hing: I tried, but leiningen doesn't find it for some reason

11:58 I get an early adopter vibe from trying to use ZeroMQ from the JVM :)

11:59 a|i: anyone using SumblimeREPL here?

11:59 no7hing: @augustl you're not the only one getting burned by zmq + jvm

11:59 Foxboron: a|i: yes

12:00 a|i: Foxboron: what is that damn ^,,l key shortcut in osx for evaluating a line?

12:00 Foxboron: a|i: when i was on Windows the keys where broke. So i am not sure if that also applies on OSX, i suggest you go into the keymap files for sublimeRepl and check the OSX keymap

12:01 a|i: Foxboron: it's this: { "keys": ["ctrl+,", "l"], "command": "repl_transfer_current", "args": {"scope": "lines"}} and it never works.

12:01 how do people work with repl + sublime text if that shortcut doesn't work?

12:01 Foxboron: a|i: you change the key and see if it works.

12:02 a|i: try use "cmd" instead of "ctrl"

12:02 a|i: Foxboron: cmd+, is a classic for preferences in mac.

12:02 is it possible to connect repl with the lein project once, and have it auto reloaded when the file saves?

12:03 Foxboron: a|i: ummm....nope

12:04 a|i: what's the state of light table ide?

12:04 I'm just looking for a sane ide other than emacs+smile.

12:04 Frozenlock: emacs+nrepl?

12:05 a|i: Frozenlock: how is that better?

12:05 Foxboron: a|i: tried emacs and nrepl?

12:05 Frozenlock: Oh, better...

12:05 Foxboron: its just. better

12:05 more awsomesausce packed into one thing

12:06 Frozenlock: Foxboron: I still consider nrepl.el ~= slime

12:06 a|i: Foxboron: trying to get some newbies into clojure, they are not of emacs/vim type. clojure itself is enough barrier, asking them to learn emacs makes it just more difficult to market clojure to them.

12:07 jeremyheiler: a|i, perhaps have them use eclipse with counterclockwise?

12:07 Foxboron: a|i: i see. I believe a texteditor + repl is the best option. If you solve the keymap issue with sublimeREPL it should be easy

12:07 a|i: jeremyheiler: ccw also has broken windows here and there.

12:07 it looks like there is no close to official quality ide for clojure outside of emacs.

12:08 Foxboron: a|i: sad truth

12:08 a|i: even scala came to the conclusion that they have to support an ide officially.

12:09 Frozenlock: lets make clojure officially support emacs :)

12:09 craigbro: indeed

12:10 a|i you don't want "auto reload when saved"

12:10 a|i: Frozenlock: emacs is not for everyone. that'd be amistake.

12:10 craigbro: a|i: you compile teh file, it will save

12:10 C-c C-l will prompt to save if it hasn't been, or you just eval specific expressions. Clojure is not quite so "file" based.

12:10 C-c C-k that is, sorry

12:11 Frozenlock: a|i: There's no IDE for everyone...

12:11 Unless you count our dear friend Notepad.exe. Ah, notepad.

12:12 Foxboron: a|i: i debugged the keymap for you

12:12 found the error

12:12 (in sublime)

12:12 augustl: hmm, "NoClassDefFoundError Could not initialize class org.zeromq.ZMQ java.lang.Class.forName0 (Class.java:-2)", this is fun..

12:12 a|i: Foxboron: I think they fixed it that bug: https://github.com/wuub/SublimeREPL/pull/116

12:14 rationalrevolt: Does a var need to be tagged dynamic in order to bind it using binding? In the repl (binding [a 20] (println a)) works even if a was not declared using the dynamic metadata

12:14 Foxboron: a|i: if you search for repl_transfer_current in the keymap file, and change the keybind from ["ctrl+","l"] too ["ctrl+l"] it works without a hazzel atleast

12:14 a|i: if you also decide too use Sublime, i might have 2 helpfull plugins for Sublime.

12:15 a|i: Foxboron: I installed your clojure docs, but didn't figourout how to use it.

12:16 Foxboron: a|i: hah. ctrl+shift+p, search for "clj" and you will find it.

12:16 a|i: i believe the keymap files might be a bit fucked on several systems (my fault for not correcting that)

12:17 a|i: Foxboron: I meant how to _use_ the plugin. how do you get the docs for something?

12:18 augustl: how do I modify java.library.path without hardcoding the path into my project.clj?

12:18 Foxboron: a|i: ctrl+shift+p, find "clj-docs", you will see a search bar in the bottom. Type... "hash-map" as an example. Then you wait 2 sec and you should see the menu

12:18 a|i: i might go about making a cache system so you can search the docs offline also.

12:19 a|i: Foxboron: is it possible to get the docs for a selection?

12:19 Foxboron: a|i: you mean, selecting a keyword?

12:19 a|i: Foxboron: eg, if I select 'map', is there a shortcut to bring up the doc for map?

12:20 Foxboron: or better, something like light table?

12:20 Foxboron: a|i: i was actually going to add a light table'ish system. But i havent coded up everything yet.

12:21 a|i: the shortcut is "supre+shift+c"

12:21 you can place your cursor beside the item, or select it.

12:21 augustl: seems my only option is to set :native-path to "my-jni" or whatever, and put my compiled stuff there, rather than specifying to leiningen where it actually resides on my system

12:22 technomancy: augustl: :native-path is an output path; it's where lein extracts native components of dependencies

12:22 Foxboron: a|i: also, if you have any suggestions for the plugin in general, just throw me a PM.

12:23 technomancy: augustl: there's no setting for java.library.path except :jvm-opts currently

12:23 https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/906

12:23 augustl: technomancy: hmm, according to http://www.paullegato.com/blog/jni-leiningen-native-path/ setting :native-path also sets java.library.path

12:23 a|i: Foxboron: great, thanks.

12:23 augustl: technomancy: I see. I currently have my native stuff in /Users/augustl/local/zmq, do I have to hardcode that specific path into project.clj?

12:23 Foxboron: a|i: i have not added threading, so a little freeze when you search is normal. (it's bad i know)

12:24 technomancy: augustl: that's intended for managed native components, not manually installed stuff

12:25 augustl: technomancy: hmm, not following. ~/local/zmq is the path to the native libs for zmq that the jzmq project loads via jni

12:27 technomancy: augustl: I mean the :native-path setting is intended as a way to tell Leiningen "if you find any native components in the dependencies, extract them to the filesystem here"

12:28 augustl: it's not intended for "oh by the way, I have some native code that I downloaded myself; here it is"

12:28 for the latter, currently :jvm-opts is the only way to do it, but we should add better support for it; see the issue link above

12:29 augustl: technomancy: I see, thanks

12:31 both :jvm-opts and JVM_OPTS in env worked fine

12:44 rationalrevolt: Hi room, can someone point me to why I am able to use binding with vars that were not declared dynamic?

12:44 I'm supposed to be getting an exception, but i don't

12:45 i'm trying this in the repl

12:45 (def a 10) followed by (binding [a 20] (println a)) - this shouldn't work because a wasn't declared with ^:dynamic

12:46 dnolen: rationalrevolt: doesn't work for me. What version of Clojure are you running?

12:47 rationalrevolt: hmm, 1.2.0 maybe thats why?

12:47 dnolen: rationalrevolt: yes

12:48 rationalrevolt: thanks, i dint realize

12:48 dnolen: rationalrevolt: 1.2.0 is pretty old - unless there's a good reason I would move to 1.4.0

12:49 rationalrevolt: right, i was playing with the example for compojure - din't realize the lein deps were configured with the old version

12:49 seangrove: Jesus, creating a custom component for goog.ui is insanely verbose

12:50 rationalrevolt: sorry enlive

12:50 dnolen: wow compojure is still on 1.2.1?

12:50 rationalrevolt: no, i corrected myself: for enlive

12:51 the templating library

12:51 seangrove: And it's not really clear how to do this in cljs

12:52 dnolen: seangrove: yeah, you need to write some macros for it not be a hassle. The UI components are done in a very classical OOP style if I recall.

12:53 seangrove: Damn, this is the last thing to do before release :P

12:53 Well, I'll feel better once I've started I suppose

12:54 dnolen: So it looks like I need to make a function, and then alter its prototype: https://www.refheap.com/paste/8990

12:55 I'm struggling a bit to think of how to translate this to cljs

12:56 dnolen: seangrove: that's what deftype does - creates a function and alters the prototype

12:56 seangrove: Ah, hadn't come across deftype before

12:57 Will look it up

12:57 dnolen: seangrove: all the data structures are written in terms of it - it's the "closest" thing to the host.

12:58 Frozenlock: Wait, so I didn't need "(set! (.-createDragElement (.-prototype new-dragger)) create-drag-element-fn)" :/

13:00 dnolen: Frozenlock: nope, you can plain object menthods to deftype's via Object

13:00 (deftype Draggable [...] Object (createDragElement [this] ...)) etc

13:00 "you can add plain object methods to deftype" I mean

13:01 tgoossens: I'm making a clojure implementation of the STRIPS planning algorithm. An operator is represnted by e map. I noticed that I make a LOT of copies during the algorithm. And also there are a lot of equality tests (comparing maps seems expensive to me).

13:01 I'm considering giving every operator an ID.

13:02 Or make it an atom. But since operators are values and hence will never change i think that is an unnecessesary addition of compexity

13:03 https://github.com/tgoossens/cljstrips/issues/2

13:03 a bit extra description:

13:04 there are several possible "links" in the strips algorithm. Establish link "operator X establishes a precondition of operator Y"

13:04 before: "operator X must come before operator Y"

13:04 in my first attempt

13:04 an before link was {:first operatorX :last operatorY}

13:04 Bodil: seangrove: If you're having to deal with JS OOP stuff, you might want to look at https://github.com/bodil/pylon

13:05 Bronsa: dnolen: in clojure that's not possible to do, but in clojurescript's datastructures implementation that's done extensively, do you think this means that deftypes should be able to specify methods not owned by any protocol/interface?

13:05 tgoossens: operatorX being effectively the operator value.

13:05 I'm fearing that this cannot be very efficient

13:05 So my question is. Any thoughts, concepts I should look into that might help me to solve my problem

13:06 or to better understand my problem

13:06 seangrove: Bodil: Oh, wow, this looks great for dealing with closure classes

13:06 augustl: technomancy: http://augustl.com/blog/2013/using_zeromq_from_clojure/ :)

13:06 seangrove: Does the :extends keyword come out as goog.base()?

13:06 dnolen: Bodil: nice!

13:06 Bodil: seangrove: Yeah, it's using goog.* stuff internally, so it shouldn't give you any trouble.

13:07 dnolen: Bodil: hmm, why doesn't it work w/ advanced compilation if you're leveraging it on Closure?

13:07 Bodil: seangrove: It uses goog.base() to extend, yes. :)

13:08 dnolen: Wish I knew, but the compiler kept mangling my method names...

13:08 seangrove: Ah, but I need advanced compilation to deploy in production - you can't use that with pylon?

13:08 Ah, just saw that, hah

13:08 Bodil: No :(

13:08 dnolen: Bronsa: probably. If I recall there's a few other things that deftype needs for real JVM CLJ-in-CLJ

13:09 Bodil: hmm, so names get mangled w/in a project? Like code in the same project can't call code?

13:10 Bodil: oh you use aset & aget, why not switch those to static access?

13:11 Bodil: dnolen: Should that matter? It seemed to compile down to the same thing anyway, iirc?

13:12 dnolen: Bodil: no it does not. aset -> foo["yucky_string"]

13:12 set! -> f.nice_property

13:12 Frozenlock: !!!

13:12 I've been trying to make advanced compilation work for hours! It might just be this!

13:12 Bodil: dnolen: Aha, interesting - I'll have a go and see if that helps.

13:13 dnolen: Bodil: if you change that, everything should work out nicely with advanced compilation

13:13 seangrove: That'd be awesome :)

13:13 pisketti: Perhaps a stupid question but is there any way to bind the last item of a coll using destructuring?

13:13 In contrast to binding the first by something like [[x & xs] coll].

13:14 tgoossens: reverse?

13:14 [[x & xs] (reverse coll)]

13:15 ,(let [[x & xs] (reverse [1 2 3]) x)

13:15 but i guess that's not exactly what you need

13:16 pisketti: thanks. I'd lose other bindigs but that's definitely a way to get the last

13:16 tgoossens: or

13:16 dnolen: pisketti: not possible

13:17 tgoossens: ,(let [[x & xs] '(1 2 3) y (last xs)] y)

13:17 dnolen: tgoossens: it's pretty normal to need ids when programming in language designed around immutable values

13:17 tgoossens: dnolen: not much experience here :)

13:17 dnolen: tgoossens: just do it w/ ids

13:17 pisketti: dnolen: ok

13:18 Bodil: dnolen: Hmm, lein-noderepl doesn't work with the latest cljs release - what did you change? :)

13:18 dnolen: Bodil: hmm, there was a REPL related change to Rhino support

13:18 Bodil: if you can do a git bisect that would be helpful.

13:19 Bodil: dnolen: Just reverted to Rhino for now, I'll try and figure it out later...

13:19 dnolen: Bodil: there needs to be a CLJS project test matrix ...

13:21 wei_: is there a way to use the clojure.math.numeric_tower library in clojurescript?

13:21 dnolen: Bodil: looking at pylons the one tricky bit is needing to set a local, I don't think that one bit can be done w/o js* unfortunately.

13:21 seangrove: Well, for browser-testing I know Sauce Labs has free testing for OSS projects

13:21 wei_: actually, I really just need a round fn

13:22 Bodil: dnolen: Where's that?

13:22 dnolen: line 15 in classes.cljs

13:22 where you set properties in the ctor

13:22 wei_: js/Math.round

13:22 technomancy: wei_: the javascript runtime doesn't really support ... reasonable numerics

13:22 wei_: haha

13:22 technomancy: it's more like a numeric hovel

13:23 seangrove: wei_: Why not use js/Math.round?

13:23 (def round (.-round js/Math)) (round 99.54)

13:23 wei_: just found out about that. thanks

13:23 dnolen: Bodil: actually, it can be done - looks like this-as allows it

13:23 seangrove: Ah, ok, heh

13:23 dnolen: Bodil: just tried (defn foo [x] (this-as this (set! (.-bar this) 1))), works

13:24 equalsdanny: Guys, does anybody know why does `lein run` takes up to 4 seconds to launch a simple project?

13:24 I think I definitely miss something

13:24 Bodil: dnolen: Did you solve this already? :)

13:24 dnolen: equalsdanny: JVM start up time + compilation time.

13:24 Bodil: I think that was fogus actually

13:25 equalsdanny: dnolen: is there any way to keep JVM up so that I can reduce the edit-compile-run cycle a bit?

13:25 craigbro: equalsdanny: don't edit comile run

13:25 equalsdanny: use emacs+nrepl for intereactive developemnt

13:26 dnolen: equalsdanny: most people don't bother with lein run, they code interactively w/ a REPL

13:26 Bodil: dnolen: Problem is, I need to set a dynamic property...

13:26 dnolen: Bodil: which property?

13:27 craigbro: equalsdanny: basically, you load up your whole program, and then you edit little bits of it, and compile and load just those parts, and then you have the REPL where you type in code snippets to test them, or "run" your program

13:27 equalsdanny: stop me if I'm being overly pedantic 8^)

13:27 Bodil: dnolen: A lot of them - I'm wrapping every method in a bind function...

13:28 dnolen: Bodil: hmm I don't see any cases where you setting a dynamic name ...

13:28 Bodil: oh ... the bind list

13:28 Bodil: dnolen: Yeah, and likewise with the actual method definitions - like (aset prototype function-name function-value)

13:29 equalsdanny: craigbro: I will try to set that up. thx :)

13:30 dnolen: Bodil: ok, yeah - I thought you were trying to do something where you wouldn't need to use dynamic names like that. The bit about leverage Closure threw me off.

13:31 Bodil: dnolen: No, that's the problem right there - because js* only takes inline strings, I can't construct anything Closure Compiler would recognise.

13:31 tgoossens: dnolen: is it also normal that I have to pass to functions like "threatens?" the mapping of id to value. Or is it more a sign of a flaw in my design

13:32 dnolen: tgoossens: it's not strange to have to write functions around managing ids

13:34 Bodil: hmm yeah ... sorry to mislead :( tho I don't really understand yet why making something that interops well w/ the Closure class stuff is diffcult.

13:35 technomancy: equalsdanny: you can also try export LEIN_FAST_TRAMPOLINE=y lein trampoline run

13:35 successive runs can skip the "outer" JVM

13:35 seangrove: What do I :require if I want to use goog.base, goog.inherits, goog.now, goog.addSingletonGetter? *shudder*

13:35 Bodil: dnolen: I think it needs to have the methods annotated as such, or something. Problem is, it mangles method invocations because it doesn't realise they're actually defined.

13:35 dnolen: tgoossens: the whole id thing seemed weird to me as well, eventually it sunk in, I also saw Ben Moseley talk about it in the context of Haskell at TechMesh so I'm pretty sure this how it must be done sometimes

13:35 tgoossens: http://shaffner.us/cs/papers/tarpit.pdf

13:36 is a great read

13:36 Bodil: hmm ...

13:36 craigbro: hehe

13:37 I shoudl check that out

13:37 dnolen: Bodil: back in the day I was against providing something to allow creation of Closure style classes - now I'm thinking it's not such a bad idea.

13:37 craigbro: the inspiration for FRP application in my project came during a nap on the futon in my old apartment, quite vivid

13:37 dnolen: Bodil: it's come up many times ...

13:38 seangrove: dnolen: At the very least for interop, not for building cljs systems on

13:38 dnolen: seangrove: yeah

13:38 Bodil: dnolen: It's a good idea for interop, though I hate the idea of putting classes in Cljs on general principle...

13:39 dnolen: Bodil: yes, for interop - it's kind of a glaring omissions considering we ship CLJS w/ Closure but then don't provide proper tools to use it :P

13:39 Bodil: dnolen: That's definitely a valid point :)

13:41 clojure-newb: cemerick: hi, I'm having a little trouble understanding what is happening with an NPE on the BCrypt.hashpw used by 'friend' when I substitute one user map for another…, I'm guessing its the structure of the hashed/encrypted item ?

13:43 dnolen: opened up a ticket for "genclass" for CLJS - http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-463

13:44 Bodil: dnolen: Nice :)

13:47 zilti: How do I turn the contents of an InputStream into a byte array?

13:47 dnolen: Bodil: let me know about noderepl when you get a chance

13:47 Bodil: dnolen: Will do.

13:49 craigbro: zilti: byte arrays don't really exist in clojure

13:50 zilti: seems more like a java question

13:52 clojure-newb: hey guys, sorry, should have opened the question out further… I've got two maps each with a :password key (bcrypted value) one is causing an NPE with friends 'bcrypt-credential-fn' function via 'BCrypt.hashpw' any ideas ?

13:53 both passwords were hashed the same way

13:53 craigbro: zilti: you might actually find a useful solution here:

13:55 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7250229/reading-a-binary-file-into-a-single-byte-array-in-java

13:55 the solution depends on the input stream a bit

13:55 clojure-newb: I would open up bcrypt-credential-fn and see what data it is passing to Bcrypt.hashpw - and then work backwards

13:55 clojure-newb: craigbro: thx, I'll give it a go

13:55 tgoossens: dnolen: thanks

13:55 craigbro: if I was in emacs I would jump to source

13:56 toggle read-ony if needed

13:56 and then add in some prints

13:56 tgoossens: dnolen: you are elready the second person who sends me out of the tarpit. Better take a look at it :p

13:56 craigbro: eval the defn and try again...

13:56 clojure-newb: craigbro: I'm an emacs newb too though I'm trying to get started with emacs live

13:56 ieure: zilti: I use Apache commons-io's IOUtils class for this kind of stuff. Works fine.

13:57 craigbro: clojure-newb: ah, ok, not fmailiar with that distribution exactly, but I imagine you are using nrepl to connect to a running clojure process?

13:57 ieure: zilti: This method is probably close to what you want: http://commons.apache.org/io/apidocs/org/apache/commons/io/IOUtils.html#toByteArray(java.net.URI)

13:57 clojure-newb: yes

13:57 zilti: ieure, craigbro : Thanks!

13:58 craigbro: clojure-newb: ok, first, try this: M-x help m

13:58 aka, get mode help

13:58 clojure-newb: ok will do

13:58 craigbro: do that when you are inside a buffer with clojure source code

13:58 it'll tell you all the keymappings available

13:58 useful stuff

13:59 If you do M-.

14:00 it jumps to the definition of the function your cursor is on

14:00 clojure-newb: nice

14:00 Bodil: dnolen: Would the closure compiler actually care if a property access is foo.bar or foo["bar"] as long as "bar" is a string literal?

14:02 clojure-newb: craigbro: hmmm, I get .../TAGS is not a valid tags table.. but i'm not sure what that means

14:04 cemerick: dnolen: thanks for the commit; hope the ___repl_env thing wasn't too janky :-)

14:09 craigbro: clojure-newb: interesting, apparently you don't have clojure-mode or something

14:09 clojure-newb: I don't know emacs live enough to help beyond that

14:10 clojure-newb: craigbro: no worries, I'll tinker with it,… sure I had it working before

14:16 hmm, doing some debug the old fashioned way println of creds defined in 'credentials.clj' line 45 displaying : '{"me" {:username "me", :password "$2a$10$/K2EysmmQFNYpBgZ8XUkneIPPIshpSXeUD3Mug2dupO/rts/B5Fem", :roles #{:x.y/user}}}' gives me the NPE, anyone got any ideas ?

14:16 sorry, this was using 'friend'

14:17 its definitely the password value causing me problems, substituting it for one created in a map locally works

14:17 seangrove: Bodil: Couldn't you use protocols for some of the closure ui interop?

14:17 The components have the same interface anyway

14:17 yedi: how do i know if paredit in emacs is active? (what does it actually do)

14:18 seangrove: yedi: If you type '(' then ')' automatically appears

14:18 Same with [,{,"

14:18 daimrod: yedi: C-h v paredit-mode RET t means it's active; you can also look at the mode-line.

14:18 Bodil: seangrove: I don't know, I'm not doing Closure UI interop. :)

14:18 seangrove: And you can't delete a single paren (i.e. they can never be unbalanced)

14:18 Bodil: Heh, ok, just wondering if I had missed something

14:19 cemerick: clojure-newb: can you paste some code / stacktrace anywhere?

14:19 seangrove: Haven't used protocols yet, feels like shaky ground to start on, but I'll give it a go

14:19 clojure-newb: cemerick: sure.. one moment

14:21 Bodil: seangrove: For my purposes at least (subclassing Ace and Backbone) protocols won't help.

14:21 seangrove: Bodil: Why's that?

14:21 Still wrapping my heads around them a bit

14:22 Bodil: seangrove: Because they aren't subclasses, they're just a way to extend Cljs's idea of what a preexisting JS class/type/whatever can do.

14:23 seangrove: Sure, but I was thinking about defining a protocol, deftyping it, constructing on, and then manually going goog.inherits(x, y)

14:23 clojure-newb: cemerick: stack trace is at : https://www.refheap.com/paste/8992, preparing code sample now...

14:24 Bodil: seangrove: Yeah, that sounds like it might work.

14:26 clojure-newb: cemerick: code is at https://www.refheap.com/paste/8993

14:26 borkdude: maybe some people in here know this? org-mode seems a bit quiet: I am translating some org-mode to html for a blog I'm trying to setup. Why does this [[/img/foo.jpg]] gets translated to <img src="file://img/foo.jpg"/> and if I do [[./img/foo.jpg]] the file is ommitted? it should be ommitted always in my case

14:27 clojure-newb: cemerick: when I replace users with users-new I get the NPE though the password is the same one at creation time, crypted in the same way

14:28 Frozenlock: Arg! I'm trying to use an external js library with advanced compilation. I've made my externs file. The compiler won't munge the main name "some-library", but everything under it will be... "some-library.xd.ax". Sound familiar?

14:29 seangrove: borkdude: Presumably the /../ looks like a filesystem path

14:30 skelternet: borkdude: is the leading slash a problem?

14:30 borkdude: skelternet yes

14:30 seangrove: I'd just look at the code for it

14:30 skelternet: borkdude: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-publish-html-tutorial.html

14:30 I mean in the image tag. Maybe it should be [[./img/foo.jpg]]

14:31 cemerick: clojure-newb: users-new needs to return the credentials map (i.e. the value of (users "me@me.com)). You're creating and returning the full map of identities.

14:31 skelternet: or [[img/foo.jpg]]

14:31 borkdude: skelternet so no absolute paths huh

14:31 skelternet no, it should be /img in my case, because the images are not on the same level as the html (org originally)

14:32 clojure-newb: cemerick: doh! thanks for your help

14:32 dnolen: Bodil: it does care

14:33 cemerick: np

14:34 skelternet: borkdude: the file /img/foo.jpg actually exists?

14:34 yedi: has anyone gotten nrepl.el to work with emacs prelude

14:36 borkdude: skelternet yes, http://localhost:4000/img/test.jpg returns the picture

14:37 skelternet: borkdude and I presume file:///img/test.jpg would also work through the file system

14:37 borkdude: skelternet no, the web server uses a specific dir as root dir

14:38 skelternet it's just a jekyll website btw

14:38 skelternet: borkdude: hmm. odd. I suspect org-mode may do that for absolute paths. I'm not positive, though.

14:38 borkdude: skelternet yes, the docs say: no absolute path

14:39 skelternet: borkdude: I've been torn between writing my own using Dexy or looking at Jekyl. How has your experience with jekyl been?

14:39 borkdude: skelternet probably this guy here uses literal html for his images for this reason http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-jekyll.html

14:41 skelternet to be honest, I didn't use jekyll that much, just copied someones repo from github and adapted some things, playing around

14:41 skelternet I'm just looking for a way to use org-mode to set up a blog and this looked promising

14:44 skelternet: I was involved in something like 10-15 projects at my old job and org-mode was the only way to maintain sanity.

14:45 I used to generate meeting notes from org-mode and run my task lists in it.

14:46 Kept the files in version control.

14:46 I'm down to 1 project now so I don't use it as much. Was useful, though.

14:47 Meeting agendas and follow up notes exported to PDF and HTML and made available to the team.

14:47 borkdude: of course I can always use a relative path like this ../../../img/test.jpg

14:48 but that's kind of ugly, I want the org-files not having to know about the structure of the jekyll site

14:48 skelternet: borkdude: yeah, but…sematically…is ../../.. meaningful? Wish we could define a variable root higher up in the org doc

14:49 borkdude: would the web address be appropriate? [[http://myblog/images/foo.jpg]] ?

14:50 borkdude: skelternet could do that, but what if I change domains, etc.. nah

14:50 skelternet: borkdude: *nod*

14:50 Family just arrived back home. I'm off to be dad. good luck.

14:51 Frozenlock: Does the google compiler keep a table of the original names? Say I could look "sv" and see that it was "my-awesome-function" elsewhere.

14:57 ivan: Frozenlock: I think you can make it generate a property renaming map

14:58 Frozenlock: ivan: thanks - however I just found a solution to my problem. Include the externs.js file directly in my project, instead of my underlying jar library.

14:58 ivan: why do you expect it to munge the main name SomeLibrary?

14:58 okay

14:58 Frozenlock: I expect it to NOT munge it :p

14:59 I'll have to see with emezeske why the externs.js included in jar is not used...

15:01 ivaraasen: hm, Prismatic's Flop looks interesting

15:02 wilfredh: I want to (use foo) and catch when it doesn't work, but FileNotFoundException isn't in scope.

15:02 any suggestions where I can import it from?

15:04 ah, java.io.FileNotFoundException

15:04 that'll teach me for learning Clojure without knowing much Java :)

15:06 yedi: where would I be adding these lines? https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el#configuration

15:06 I should be putting it in nrepl.el right?

15:07 ivan: yedi: in your .emacs.d/init.el

15:08 yedi: ivan: ty

15:09 dabd: I'd like to sort a list of cards by their ranks according to the normal rank order in a deck of cards. I can't figure why this doesn't work https://gist.github.com/4644325

15:10 i get (sort-by-rank-order '("KTo" "KQo" "AJo" "AQo" "AKo"))

15:10 ("AKo" "AQo" "KQo" "AJo" "KTo")

15:10 Any tips please?

15:10 Seba51: I am playing with clutch a couchdb client libray and saw things like "WARNING: assoc! already refers to: #'clojure.core/assoc! in namespace". My guess is, that libraries should not names as clojure methods. Is this correct?

15:12 tomoj: dabd: hard to tell what you're really trying to do. I mean I understand rank order, but what's all the notation? anyway [(first h) (second h)] in your cond clause looks suspicious. a vector is always logically true

15:12 ivan: Seba51: you can, if you exclude from clojure.core with a (:refer-clojure :exclude [assoc!])

15:12 (haven't tried it though)

15:12 tomoj: oh, nevermind

15:12 ivan: that is, in your (ns

15:12 tomoj: I misread it, damn you cond

15:13 Seba51: @Ivan thanks for the tip. Is this OK for a library to reuse the names. I am just wondering if the library is badly designed.

15:13 dabd: AKo = Ace King off suit KQs = King Queen suited

15:14 borkdude: I solved my problem by writing a hook fn for org-publish-before-export-hook which replaces $SITEPATH$.. kind of templating in an org-file - is this something that could be done in an easier way?

15:14 S11001001: Seba51: yes, it's OK

15:14 dabd: tomoj: Is this you don't understand?

15:14 S11001001: Seba51: It means you aren't supposed to just (:use the-lib), you're supposed to :require :as, or :use :only

15:15 ivan, Seba51: I missed part of conversation, sorry for repeat

15:16 Seba51: Thanks for the feedback. I just found this as well "Use good names, and don't be afraid to collide with names in other namespaces. That's what the flexible namespace support is there for." in http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Library+Coding+Standards

15:17 tomoj: wow, I was going to say your comparator should return -1, 0, or 1 instead of booleans

15:18 I used (sort > coll) before but didn't think about it

15:19 &(= (sort compare [1 2 3]) (sort < [1 2 3]))

15:19 lazybot: ⇒ true

15:21 seangrove: hrm

15:21 In cljs, when I create a (deftype ...) and give it some functions, and then instantiate that type, where are the functions? How can I call them from javascript-land?

15:21 yedi: what does load file mean in nrepl? I'd assume it'd mean to load all of the clojure code of a file so that the repl has access to all the functions/variables

15:22 S11001001: yedi: yes, but "repl has access" probably doesn't mean what you think

15:22 yedi: load into memory

15:22 tomoj: &(java.util.Collections/min [3 2 1] (comparator <))

15:22 lazybot: ⇒ 1

15:23 tomoj: &(java.util.Collections/min [3 2 1] <)

15:23 lazybot: ⇒ 1

15:23 tomoj: (def comparator identity)

15:23 S11001001: yedi: yes, it fits that

15:23 tomoj: except for (comparator a-map) or some crazy shit

15:23 yedi: in my emacs setup, running C-c C-l to load my file doesn't seem to work

15:23 S11001001: yedi: what does "doesn't seem to work" mean?

15:23 ivaraasen: so, I just wrote my first macro, guys.

15:23 yedi: and I don't want to have to evaluate every form in the file by hand

15:23 seangrove: Doesn't seem to be in the namespace...

15:24 ivaraasen: it's ugly as hell, but it will do

15:24 yedi: CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: rhyme-scheme in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1)

15:24 S11001001: yedi: then by "repl has access" you don't mean anything about memory, you mean the environment of the repl

15:24 seangrove: Ah, on the object iself

15:24 S11001001: yedi: the repl starts in ns user

15:24 yedi: your code is in some other ns, whatever you declared it as

15:25 yedi: loading a file *only* loads it, it doesn't mess with the ns your repl is in

15:25 yedi: you can use nrepl-set-ns when in a file to switch your repl to the file's ns

15:25 yedi: ah, i see

15:25 Frozenlock: ivaraasen: Was it _really_ necessary?

15:25 S11001001: yedi: or you can type out the commands in the repl for changing namespaces, loading your namespace into user, etc

15:25 * Frozenlock sometimes wrote macro just for the heck of it.

15:26 ivaraasen: Frozenlock: well, I was trying to implement an interface somewhat similar to Flop, so, yes

15:26 xeqi: yedi, S11001001: C-c M-n will change the namespace to the current buffer

15:28 tomoj: apparently Comparator is the reason AFunction exists

15:29 S11001001: yedi: I recommend using what xeqi mentioned. You can :use your ns into user, but that won't pick up changes you make to the ns, and won't give you access to private defs in your ns, so can get very annoying

15:29 xeqi: I always forget that binding :]

15:30 seangrove: Goddamn, I don't understand deftype in cljs

15:30 yedi: S11001001, xeqi: thanks a lot, i'm still having trouble getting the hang of emacs esp in conjunction with learning clojure

15:31 S11001001: Emacs for life

15:31 Frozenlock: ^

15:31 tomoj: emacs for now

15:31 seangrove: What is the this inside of the functions generated by deftype?

15:32 tomoj: maybe you're older than me, but I hope to use something much better before I die :)

15:32 Frozenlock: tomoj: emacs with some kind of graphical support?

15:33 tomoj: heh

15:34 seangrove: inside?

15:34 ChongLi: ahh this is funny

15:34 tomoj: inside should just be the code you wrote

15:34 ChongLi: functional programming in C

15:34 list *

15:34 map(list *l, void *(*fn)(void *, void *), void *args)

15:34 seangrove: tomoj: One second...

15:35 S11001001: tomoj: I assume the much better thing will simply be an enhanced emacs :)

15:35 Frozenlock: emacs with namespace would be nice

15:35 S11001001: faketional programming

15:35 gfredericks: seangrove: the first argument to any deftype function is this

15:36 you can call it `this` or anything else

15:36 ChongLi: basically shotting off the type system at this point

15:36 seangrove: https://www.refheap.com/paste/8994

15:36 ChongLi: if you're only using void pointers

15:36 tomoj: oh, "the this"

15:36 seangrove: I see that self__ = this, stats_control = this

15:36 Frozenlock: Not knowing JS, could someone briefly explain what it 'this'?

15:37 ChongLi: Frozenlock: briefly?

15:37 Frozenlock: s/it/is

15:37 seangrove: Not 100% clear on how the 'this' is getting assigned

15:37 ChongLi: javascript has late binding

15:37 gfredericks: Frozenlock: it's a magical -1th argument to every function

15:37 ChongLi: so 'this' is set at call time

15:38 'this' is not lexically scoped

15:38 ivan: it is the most evil thing :(

15:38 gfredericks: ivan: but but! object orientation!

15:38 right!?

15:38 ChongLi: no

15:38 clojurebot: flatten |is| rarely the right answer. What if your "base type" is a list

15:38 ChongLi: other OO languages handle 'this' properly

15:38 Bodil: seangrove: OK, I managed to make Pylon work with advanced optimisations, making a release now. :)

15:38 Frozenlock: ChongLi: So you don't know what it will be in advance?

15:38 seangrove: Bodil: Ah, ok, thank you so much

15:38 ChongLi: Frozenlock: right

15:39 seangrove: This is such a horrid nightmare

15:39 gfredericks: Frozenlock: you can be pretty sure if you're doing things normally though

15:39 ChongLi: best practice is to assign something else to this and then pass that in

15:39 gfredericks: it's not like it's randomly selected by the runtime or anything

15:39 ChongLi: afaik

15:40 gfredericks: it's only mildly different from if it were just an explicit first argument

15:40 seangrove: Frozenlock: You'll see a lot of "var self = this;" type stuff, and then using "self" from then on, in case 'this' changes in a callback

15:40 gfredericks: an first argument that you had to name `this` so that it shadowed any outer occurrences :)

15:40 ChongLi: javascript is such a strange language

15:41 ivan: http://ecma262-5.com/ELS5_HTML.htm#Section_10.4.3

15:41 ChongLi: I mean, it has lexical closures right there!

15:41 ivan: my favorite step is "Else if thisArg is null or undefined, set the ThisBinding to the global object."

15:42 ChongLi: yeah

15:42 so if you screw up your invocation of a constructor you risk trashing the global object

15:42 Frozenlock: So 'this' can never be null? Weird first argument :P

15:43 gfredericks: oh I didn't realize that

15:43 at least in the case of f.call(null)

15:43 ChongLi: javascript has all kinds of "helpful" stuff going on

15:44 gfredericks: so for CLJS golf, maybe js/this is a shortcut for js/window

15:44 ChongLi: like null == undefined

15:44 for example

15:44 gfredericks: ChongLi: 0 == [] I think

15:44 ChongLi: oh it's even worse than that

15:45 "0" == false

15:45 gfredericks: oh nevermind js/this doesn't work

15:45 ChongLi: holy cow

15:46 ChongLi: another fun one is to write a function which counts the occurrences of words in a string

15:46 Frozenlock: ChongLi: wait, the string zero is false?

15:46 ChongLi: yeah

15:46 Frozenlock: *mind blown*

15:46 gfredericks: Frozenlock: it must helpfully convert it to a number first

15:47 ChongLi: javascript implicitly coerces the types on both sides of the expression until they're comparable

15:47 gfredericks: despite the fact that you're not even comparing it to a number

15:47 ChongLi: so "0" will get turned to 0

15:47 ivan: "-0" == false :)

15:47 gfredericks: ChongLi: how does that help comparing to a boolean though?

15:47 ChongLi: 0 in js is false

15:47 gfredericks: yes I know

15:48 ChongLi: as is -0

15:48 gfredericks: but strings are generally true excepting ""

15:48 so the fact that the string contains a number seems irrelevant when comparing to a boolean

15:48 Frozenlock: what about "false" == false

15:48 ChongLi: no, that's false

15:48 gfredericks: I'm just saying this makes one chunk less sense than "0" == 0

15:49 seangrove: Bodil: Let me know when you've pushed the new release

15:49 ChongLi: it'll keep trying until it lines up the types to do a comparison

15:49 gfredericks: I'll stop trying to make sense of it

15:49 ChongLi: this is how all operators in javascript work (except for the reference ones)

15:50 === is reference equality

15:50 aka pointer equality

15:50 so that'll pretty much always work

15:50 except when you have two objects that are equal but not the same

15:50 that's pretty rare though

15:51 gfredericks: I'm just thinking that you can satisfy the "coerce until comparable" description by going straight from a string to a boolean without the intervening number

15:51 "This string is not empty, thus it is == true"

15:52 ChongLi: it basically converts both to a number

15:52 false gets converted to 0

15:52 dabd: why does sort accepts both (comparator some-pred) and some-pred as the comparator argument?

15:53 ChongLi: dabd: hmm?

15:53 dabd: obv some-pred does not implement the java.util.Comparator interface so I don't understand how it works

15:53 gfredericks: ChongLi: that would lead me to expect "foo" == 7

15:53 dabd: ,(sort < [5 3 1 7])

15:53 clojurebot: (1 3 5 7)

15:53 ChongLi: no

15:54 dabd: ,(sort (comparator <) [5 3 1 7])

15:54 clojurebot: (1 3 5 7)

15:54 ChongLi: "foo" gets parsed as NaN

15:54 dabd: both work

15:54 gfredericks: ChongLi: oh right; I retract previous statement

15:55 ChongLi: comparator is useful with java.util.Collections/sort

15:55 dabd: does that help?

15:55 here's the other interesting thing

15:56 in order to make sure "foo" == "bar" returns false (and some other things)

15:56 NaN == NaN always returns false

15:56 gfredericks: well that implies "foo" == "foo" returns false

15:56 ChongLi: oh good point

15:57 but NaN == NaN does return false

15:57 which is bizarre

15:57 gfredericks: is NaN in the floating point spec?

15:57 ChongLi: yeah

15:57 dabd: it does not explain why it accepts a function that does not implement the java.util.Comparator interface when the documentation states that it must do

15:57 gfredericks: do they say anything about NaN == NaN

15:58 ChongLi: dabd: clojure.core/sort accepts any predicate

15:58 java.util.Collections/sort requires that the predicate be an implementation of java.util.Comparator

15:59 dabd: why would clojure.core/sort be written to have a limitation of java when it doesn't have to?

16:00 Frozenlock: Is it possible to "(set! (.-onload js/window) some-fn)" multiple time, or will it erase any previous functions?

16:00 gfredericks: ,(doc sort)

16:00 clojurebot: "([coll] [comp coll]); Returns a sorted sequence of the items in coll. If no comparator is supplied, uses compare. comparator must implement java.util.Comparator."

16:00 gfredericks: ChongLi: I think he's asking why the docs say otherwise

16:00 ChongLi: hmm let me see

16:01 dabd: I'm looking at the sort implementation for explanations :-)

16:01 gfredericks: ,(instance? java.util.Comparator <)

16:01 clojurebot: true

16:01 gfredericks: ^ that's probably part of it

16:01 ChongLi: ah so there you go

16:01 gfredericks: I suspect the docs are accurate as the type hint is there

16:01 dabd: aha

16:01 thanks gfredericks

16:01 gfredericks: ,(sort #(< %1 %2) [1 2 3 4])

16:01 clojurebot: (1 2 3 4)

16:02 S11001001: &(instance? java.util.Comparator (fn [] 42))

16:02 lazybot: ⇒ true

16:02 ChongLi: so there you go

16:02 gfredericks: ,(instance? java.util.Comparator fn?)

16:02 clojurebot: true

16:02 gfredericks: welp.

16:02 that's interesting.

16:02 ChongLi: all clojure functions automatically implement it

16:02 gfredericks: ,(instance? java.util.Comparator {})

16:02 clojurebot: false

16:02 gfredericks: ,(parents clojure.lang.Fn)

16:02 clojurebot: nil

16:02 gfredericks: ,(supers clojure.lang.Fn)

16:02 clojurebot: nil

16:02 ChongLi: ,(instance? java.util.Comparator #{})

16:02 clojurebot: false

16:02 ChongLi: hmmm

16:03 oh right

16:03 gfredericks: oh Fn is an interface

16:03 what the heck

16:03 ChongLi: a comparator is not a normal predicate

16:03 gfredericks: ,(supers (class (fn [] 42)))

16:03 dabd: the implementation shows (. java.util.Arrays (sort a comp))

16:03 clojurebot: #{java.lang.Runnable clojure.lang.Fn java.io.Serializable java.util.concurrent.Callable java.util.Comparator ...}

16:03 dabd: what sort is being called in (sort a comp)?

16:04 ChongLi: it returns -1 0 1 I believe

16:04 ,((comparator >) 3 2)

16:05 clojurebot: -1

16:05 tomoj: &(.compare (fn [x y] (< x y)) 3 2)

16:05 lazybot: ⇒ 1

16:05 ChongLi: ,((comparator >) 2 3)

16:05 clojurebot: 1

16:05 ChongLi: yeah there you go

16:05 tomoj: this is what I was talking about earlier

16:05 ChongLi: dabd: does that clear it up for you?

16:05 tomoj: on AFunctions, comparator is identity

16:06 https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/a5f786a847a202e78048dae8fdf15a7e8748dd3d/src/jvm/clojure/lang/AFunction.java#L46

16:07 (well, comparator isn't really identity of course - only as far as .compare is concerned)

16:07 oops, ##(.compare < 2 3)

16:07 lazybot: ⇒ -1

16:13 ohpauleez: For those interested in the Leap Motion: http://www.pauldee.org/ClojureLeapMouse.mov

16:13 30 second teaser of mousing using Leap and Clojure

16:14 the API/Library, clojure-leap, has gesture recognition. In that example I use a gesture to toggle the Leap on and off

16:15 For all coming to Clojure/West, you're welcome to play with it :)

16:15 seangrove: ohpauleez: Looks awesome!

16:16 ohpauleez: seangrove: Thanks!

16:16 That was all possible in about two days worth of work. Gotta love Clojure

16:16 tomoj: ohpauleez: sweet

16:16 seangrove: Looking up leap motion now...

16:18 ohpauleez: tomoj: Playing with it on the repl is a blast

16:18 tomoj: so you need some special driver I guess?

16:19 seangrove: ohpauleez: how'd you get one? Looks like they're still pre-order

16:20 ohpauleez: it's just a USB device + generic driver

16:20 TimMc: seangrove: Just coming into the conversation, I couldn't figure out how tree traversal algorithms were related to this. :-P

16:20 ohpauleez: seangrove: developer program

16:22 ChongLi: man what's up with vlc?

16:22 I pause your video

16:22 and then when I restart it it plays a few seconds and then kicks out of full screen and stops the video

16:23 Raynes: ohpauleez: Give me your leap motion thingy.

16:23 ohpauleez: haha

16:23 Raynes: I want it.

16:23 It's unfair that I don't have mine yet.

16:23 ohpauleez: Also, that code example is 38 lines of code

16:24 seangrove: ohpauleez: Do you have any specific use-case for it in mind?

16:25 ohpauleez: seangrove: I'm creating a 3D equivalent of the the FingerWorks TouchStream experience

16:25 Adaptive keyboard, mousing, macro'd gestures

16:25 etc

16:26 * technomancy has a TouchStream

16:26 ohpauleez: technomancy: sick!

16:26 technomancy: it's interesting. completely useless for typing, but fun for games and stuff.

16:26 I'd probably use it if I actually did design work or something.

16:26 Raynes: <3 das

16:26 ohpauleez: it's interesting, doing the adaptive typing for the Leap has been super hard as well

16:26 ChongLi: das keyboard?

16:27 I've got a filco

16:27 ivaraasen: I've got a ThinkPad

16:27 seangrove: ohpauleez: ... as a kind of 3d keyboard?

16:27 ChongLi: since getting used to a filco I find rubber-dome keyboards intolerable!

16:27 technomancy: I even have a 2003-era ibook that I keep around only because it's the only thing with an old enough USB stack to be able to reprogram the touchstream =\

16:27 tomoj: "perfectly smooth surface" re touchstream

16:27 * technomancy shakes his fist at Apple for ruining everything. again.

16:27 tomoj: hopefully it does have imperfections?

16:28 ..preferably on 'f' and 'j' ?

16:28 technomancy: not that I would have ever forgiven them for killing hypercard, mind you.

16:28 Apage43: ChongLi: Heh, I've taken mine to work

16:28 ohpauleez: seangrove: The idea is that you can place your hands anywhere (in your lap, for example) and type. Based on the diffs/deltas/motions, I know what key you intended

16:28 Raynes: ChongLi: Yeah, das.

16:28 Apage43: the clacking reverberates throughout the office

16:28 ChongLi: I'd have gotten a das if they offered a tenkeyless one

16:28 seangrove: ohpauleez: Crazy, that would be amazing

16:28 Raynes: ChongLi: I use it and my macbook pro's keyboard. I find the macbook's keyboard surprisingly tolerable.

16:29 ChongLi: I'm all about the tenkeyless

16:29 I don't know anyone who does extensive work on a numeric keypad

16:30 Apage43: ChongLi: *shrug* I rarely -use- the numpad and junk, but I don't begrudge having it there. I'd like to get a tenkeyless that has a detachable cable though, just for portability.

16:30 Raynes: I prefer having a numpad.

16:30 I mean, I wish it were smaller, but when I do need it I'm happy it is there

16:30 ohpauleez: Raynes: For when you're adding up all your fat stacks of cash?

16:31 ChongLi: I find the numpad forces my arms too far apart

16:31 Raynes: Yeah, man.

16:31 ivaraasen: I tried doing stuff with Emacspeak once. it was ... interesting.

16:31 ohpauleez: But for real, I live just a couple of blocks from the venue of Clojure/West

16:31 happy to let people play around with the Leap Motion

16:31 Raynes: I fully intend to take my das on my first day of work Monday after next and pound on it until my team's ears bleed.

16:31 ivaraasen: ohpauleez: too lucky, man

16:32 technomancy: hmm... maybe I can unload my touchstream at clojurewest if there's interest in gesturey stuff =)

16:32 ChongLi: Raynes: at least it's not a unicomp

16:32 I'm tempted to get one of those

16:32 I wish they'd make a tenkeyless!

16:32 ohpauleez: technomancy: I'm always looking for well-maintained TouchStreams

16:32 ChongLi: from what I've heard unicomp has fallen a bit on hard times

16:33 ohpauleez: Raynes: Where are you starting to work?

16:33 ChongLi: people only ever need one of their keyboards

16:33 the buckling springs are too durable!

16:33 Raynes: ohpauleez: Finally moving to LA to work full time at Geni/MyHeritage.

16:33 ohpauleez: cool

16:33 congrats!

16:33 technomancy: ohpauleez: mine is actually a digitouch, one of the ones originally designed for internal use on 2004-era macbooks but put in a case.

16:33 ChongLi: that sounds pretty exciting

16:33 do they use clojail?

16:34 I love that talk btw

16:34 Raynes: Well, we use lazybot which uses clojail.

16:34 So I guess you could say that.

16:34 I've been working for them for 2 years as an intern.

16:34 Remotely.

16:34 Also, thanks.

16:35 technomancy: are you going to level up to non-intern-ness?

16:35 Raynes: That talk is unfortunately entirely inaccurate now. I've rewritten half of the thing since then.

16:35 ChongLi: you nailed one of the most important aspects of giving a good talk: use humor

16:35 bbloom: ,(into {} (map vec (partition 2 [:a 1 :b 2])))

16:35 clojurebot: {:a 1, :b 2}

16:35 bbloom: ,(into {} (partition 2 [:a 1 :b 2]))

16:35 clojurebot: #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>

16:35 bbloom: i know i can do:

16:35 ,(apply hash-map [:a 1 :b 2])

16:35 clojurebot: {:a 1, :b 2}

16:35 bbloom: but what if i have a record type i want to into with a sequence of key vals? something like:

16:35 Raynes: technomancy: Yes, this is is a full time non-intern stealing-you-old-timer's-jobs position.

16:35 technomancy: nice

16:35 Apage43: i once leveled up to non-internness

16:35 it was okay

16:36 hiredman: ,(conj {} '(:a 1))

16:36 clojurebot: #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>

16:36 bbloom: (into (Foo. 1 2) [:x 3 :y 4])

16:36 ChongLi: pretty soon you'll be partying in hollywood

16:36 hiredman: ,(conj {} [:a 1])

16:36 clojurebot: {:a 1}

16:36 Raynes: I'm reaching non-intern level 4. It's like Super Saiyan 3, but with better salary.

16:36 bbloom: hiredman: yup, so i don't have an empty {}, i have a record with stuff in it

16:36 hiredman: what's the best way to poor a sequence into there

16:37 hiredman: reduce

16:37 technomancy: Raynes: word of advice: pick the longsword proficiency

16:37 ChongLi: I think everybody knows that

16:37 longswords are the best!

16:37 Raynes: Really? I was hoping for archery.

16:37 bbloom: s/poor/pour

16:37 hiredman: reduce assoc?

16:38 gfredericks: into uses transients

16:38 bbloom: hiredman: with the partition 2 in there, then it needs to destructure too, seems relatively inefficient

16:38 seangrove: Didn't realize technomancy was an old-timer

16:39 bbloom: gfredericks: yeah, i'm looking for the most idiomatic way to pour a sequence into a record efficiently

16:39 gfredericks: bbloom: oh I guess records can't transient?

16:40 ChongLi: anyone here read the reasoned schemer?

16:40 (I assume some have)

16:40 bbloom: gfredericks: apparently not. into checks instance? IEditableCollection

16:40 records do not appear to be editable collections

16:40 which kinda sucks

16:41 hiredman: gfredericks: it doesn't matter, his problemis he is trying to conj lists created by partition-all instead of 2 elements vactors on to a map

16:41 josteink: technomancy: congrats on the lein 2 release!

16:41 * josteink puts out some random internet cheers to people who deserve it

16:41 bbloom: ,(reduce (partial apply assoc) {} (partition 2 [:a 1 :b 2]))

16:41 clojurebot: {:b 2, :a 1}

16:42 technomancy: josteink: thanks!

16:42 josteink: I saw someone on HN refer to leiningen as such a fantastic tool, that it alone was worth learning clojure for ;)

16:42 (in case you missed it)

16:42 tomoj: bbloom: records don't need to be editable, do they?

16:42 josteink: its really very, very good

16:42 ChongLi: josteink: yeah I saw (and mentioned) the same thing

16:42 josteink: so a happy weekend to you :)

16:42 tomoj: I guess it could help

16:42 hiredman: bbloom: I would be surprised if papply is more efficient then destructuring

16:43 bbloom: hiredman: oh yeah, clearly gonna be a wash, i'm just trying to figure out what to do exactly

16:43 tomoj: one of the main reasons for records is performance, is it not?

16:43 ChongLi: performance and polymorphism

16:44 bbloom: ChongLi: right

16:44 * josteink is planning his first clojure based website. gonna keep it simplefor now :P

16:44 bbloom: ,(->> [:a 1 :b 2] (partition 2) (map vec))

16:44 clojurebot: ([:a 1] [:b 2])

16:44 hiredman: they cannot support O(1) transition from from persistent to transient

16:44 records don't have the tree structure required for it, exactly for performance

16:45 tomoj: well O(k) where k is number of fields?

16:45 ivaraasen: wow, primitives are way faster than I initially suspected

16:45 tomoj: I mean the extmap is editable, right?

16:46 but I guess that's only useful if you're stuffing a whole bunch of ext keys in

16:47 bbloom: hiredman: the number of defined fields is a constant, so it's technically O(1) to copy them all

16:47 Raynes: drewr: https://github.com/Raynes/postal/commit/ca4561f1f82266443aacd49161a10fa89e6e96ca just did this for fun (haven't had much chance to use conch myself, and I found a small thing that needed changing by doing this, so hooray). Not sure if you'd be interested, but thar she blows.

16:48 bbloom: hiredman: and if that number is < 30 (the branching factor of the vector objects) then it's probably cheaper to copy them than it is to create intermediate nodes

16:48 anyway, i'm going with map vec for now

16:58 * josteink grumbles that the android terminal emulator does not have click to launch-links

17:01 tomoj: "the" android terminal emulator?

17:02 josteink: the AOSP one, or one shipped with AOSP roms

17:02 or AOSP-based ones like CM

17:02 on a machine with a good keybord dock, like the asus transformer, the terminal emulator makes for a good hacking space

17:02 on a machine with 16 hours battery life ;)

17:07 ivaraasen: josteink: oh what I would give for decent battery life

17:08 josteink: I tried using my actual laptop earlier today, from the couch. lasted me less than 2 hours

17:08 thats just not good enough

17:11 ivaraasen: josteink: I've got about five hours. considering adding a slice battery for long hikes

17:11 tgoossens: Out of the tarpit. I've been hearing about it a few times now. Someone read it here?

17:11 hyPiRion: tgoossens: yes

17:11 ivaraasen: tgoossens: yeah, it's a pretty good read.

17:11 ChongLi: it's not that long either

17:12 tgoossens: i'm searching some reading material for while travelling (and next semester)

17:12 warz: if ive used gen-class in one namespace to create an aot compiled class, and i need to create an instance of it in a different namespace, do i have to :import it like a java class?

17:13 ivaraasen: hyPiRion: woho, just finished some macros inspired by Flop. it's pretty nice to use primitives without all the clutter.

17:13 tgoossens: currently i'm reading the pragmatic programmer, interesting book

17:13 ChongLi: tgoossens: what's your list so far?

17:13 josteink: tgoossens: it has very good ideas. the hard part is picking them up and actually taking them seriously. translating them into action.

17:13 tgoossens: josteink: that's always the tricky part

17:14 let me see what do i have in my library

17:14 josteink: tgoossens: some ideas are more seductive than others ;)

17:14 tgoossens: seven programming languages in seven weeks (not really useful while travelling i think)

17:14 josteink: tgoossens: TPP's ideas tend to leave you with (what seems like) more work ;P

17:15 tgoossens: josteink: i'm at page 40, so still lot to read :)

17:15 hyPiRion: ivaraasen: Sounds useful, link?

17:15 ChongLi: paul graham's on lisp is pretty nice

17:15 ivaraasen: hyPiRion: they support bindings, so finding the dot product is as simple as (asum [x xs y ys] (* x y)

17:15 tgoossens: Functional programming for the OO programmer (by marick)

17:16 and "how to so solve it"

17:16 ivaraasen: hyPiRion: Flop isn't released yet I'm afraid. but it's probably going to be quite nice.

17:16 tgoossens: but i think tarpit & pragmatic programmer is enought for the coming weeks :p

17:17 hyPiRion: ivaraasen: I was thinking about your macros :)

17:17 tgoossens: fun fact: i never read programming books before until I came into contact with the clojure community.

17:17 Its almost unavoidable

17:17 everytime I watch a talk

17:17 "you should read/buy this book at amazon" :p

17:18 ChongLi: tgoossens: yeah same here pretty much

17:18 when I started with haskell (before clojure) I mainly read academic papers

17:18 many of which were very hard to follow

17:19 tgoossens: never read papers really

17:19 ivaraasen: hyPiRion: oh, gimme a sec

17:19 ChongLi: a lot of them used denotational semantics

17:19 josteink: ChongLi: Ive tried to complete SICP (but its pretty damn long :P ), and found it very englightening so far

17:19 ChongLi: which I have yet to learn

17:19 josteink: ChongLi: how does PG's book relate to that?

17:19 ChongLi: yeah SICP is great

17:20 josteink: is it trying to sell me lisp, or is it trying to teach lispers something new?

17:20 ChongLi: on lisp is basically all about macros

17:20 josteink: hm ok. sounds nice.

17:20 ChongLi: it was the first book to really dive in and give tons of example macros

17:20 tgoossens: so far, reading TPP has been really confronting

17:21 ChongLi: some of the macros in PG's book are pretty hard to follow

17:21 josteink: tgoossens: the first thing TPP tought me was that Im not really such a good programmer as I tend to think I am :P

17:21 ChongLi: but I suspect that's due to bad formatting on my kindle

17:21 tgoossens: josteink: exactly

17:21 josteink: ChongLi: Ive had the same issue with other programming books on the kindle

17:21 ChongLi: hard wrapping can screw up indentation and really make code a chore to read

17:21 josteink: mhm

17:22 ChongLi: SICP's ebook version is well formatted though

17:23 tgoossens: josteink: with me. It invoked a sudden change in direction. My idea has always been to go and study software engineering

17:23 but suddenly i realised

17:23 that might not be the best choice for me

17:23 ivaraasen: hyPiRion: https://www.refheap.com/paste/c3b278e7697715aa8b5ff9b19

17:24 ChongLi: from what I've seen a lot of schools tend to just churn out java CRUD programmers

17:24 tgoossens: because

17:24 I have gotten the impression that I am going to waste my time

17:24 for a large part

17:24 josteink: ChongLi: I did Electrical engineering, and just graduated when the industry had token a complete nosedive

17:25 ChongLi: if you can take a course that still teaches SICP it'd be worth it

17:25 josteink: ChongLi: for every job I applied, tehre were 100 experienced engineers who had just gotten downsized

17:25 tgoossens: this is what i'm heading for now

17:25 http://onderwijsaanbod.kuleuven.be/opleidingen/v/e/SC_51016867.htm#bl=01

17:25 ChongLi: josteink: that's awful

17:25 josteink: I stood no chance getting a job. So my childhood hobby of programming it was :P

17:25 could have been worse :)

17:25 tgoossens: josteink: programming has always been my hobby

17:25 and suddenly i realised

17:25 it should stay that way

17:26 at least while i'm at college

17:26 josteink: yeah thaht was my idea as well

17:26 tgoossens: I have no interest in being pushed in some

17:26 direction

17:26 clojurebot: I don't understand.

17:26 josteink: didnt quite work out that well :P

17:26 tgoossens: being oblligated

17:26 to work on certain concepts

17:26 i want to keep exploring on my own

17:26 in my case

17:26 my whole master revolves around OO

17:26 and I am not willing to cope with that

17:27 long story short

17:27 I realized that what i would be learning is

17:27 hyPiRion: ivaraasen: thanks!

17:27 tgoossens: 1) when i graduate it is old knowledge.

17:27 josteink: ah well. a degree CAN be a career-opener.

17:28 tgoossens: 2) is not something i cannot learn on my own (for the most part)

17:28 josteink: most jobs wants/expects some sort of papers ;)

17:28 ChongLi: don't disparage old knowledge

17:28 tgoossens: chongli:i don't

17:28 * josteink has a bunch MS certifications of questionable value

17:28 ChongLi: most people still haven't realized the powerful stuff you'll find in stuff like SICP and On Lisp

17:28 josteink: they have gotten me jobs though ;)

17:28 tomoj: hmm, wikipedia says SSA is a well-behaved subset of CPS which "excludes non-local control". are promises that too?

17:29 tgoossens: its just

17:29 i know a lot of people (even some working at google now)

17:29 that never even studied software engineering

17:29 josteink: sure

17:29 but dont trick yourself into thinking the exception is the rule

17:29 tgoossens: hmmyes

17:30 josteink: while you are discussing reasons to NOT get a degree

17:30 Im a practicing professional

17:30 tgoossens: i AM going to get a degree

17:30 but in a different profession :p

17:30 *master

17:30 josteink: which never got an (IT) degree, who wish he had ;)

17:30 tgoossens: hmm

17:30 i have 6 months stillb

17:30 josteink: there is some theoretical background Id really like to have, which Ill never have the time to read up on now

17:31 tgoossens: before i have to choose

17:31 devn: universities work with private businesses

17:31 tgoossens: its only been a few days that

17:31 this idea has been going through my heaf

17:31 *head

17:31 josteink: but lets flip perspective slightly

17:31 you live in the US, right?

17:31 tgoossens: belgium

17:31 ivaraasen: hyPiRion: it was a fun exercise. hopefully it'll be useful for some numerics stuff I'm planning on doing in Clojure

17:31 josteink: ok. same deal. western world

17:32 why would you invest your future in something which everyone will outsource to india in 10 years? :P

17:32 tgoossens: simple

17:32 * devn facepalms

17:33 tgoossens: its ME who is going to send it TO india then ;) :p

17:33 but no

17:33 i'm not really into that

17:33 idea

17:33 outsourcing can be great

17:33 for cost

17:33 devn: just don't be outsourceable and you don't have a problem.

17:34 it's a choice you have throughout any career in nearly any field

17:34 josteink: It was a tongue-in-cheek remark

17:34 but still

17:34 looking at the IT world today, compared to 10 years ago.... lots of skills I had is now either obsolete or priced obscenely low

17:35 hyPiRion: ivaraasen: Yeah, I find math in Clojure to be rather slow without those tricks, so those were handy.

17:35 tgoossens: josteink: the thing i'm considering studying now is. Numerical models for scientific purposes

17:35 josteink: Im not sure where IT is going to be heading (job-wise) the next 10 years. Im not sure where i'd put my bets ;)

17:36 tgoossens: and simulations

17:36 ivaraasen: hyPiRion: yeah. I tried doing some geomechanics stuff. probably should've used matrices anyway, but still, way too slow

17:37 tgoossens: oh well

17:37 just dreaming and thinking

17:37 still got time to think and choose

17:37 and change opinions

17:37 its a good thing i'm actively thinking about it though

17:38 seangrove: Bodil: Are you able to work in the repl with pylon, when building up classes with them?

17:38 Seems to be breaking with chrome as the eval env

17:38 tgoossens: i better go to bed now. Still have to study for my exam :)

17:39 hyPiRion: ivaraasen: hah, yeah. I tend to go down to C/CUDA when running HPC-stuff. Thinking about doing some CUDA/Java/Clojure wrapping, seems useful considering the speed gain you get.

17:39 * josteink is doing brainstorming for his new site, and decides to go with a LOTR paraphrasing for parts of it

17:39 Bodil: seangrove: Only tried with Node, but that should work.

17:40 ivaraasen: hyPiRion: that would be awesome. I'm rooting for core.matrix myself

17:42 hyPiRion: ivaraasen: Oh yeah, I saw it on the Clojure-dev list the other day.

17:42 Would be sweet to have something in core.

17:43 josteink: "One kernel to rule them all, one protocol to find them, one terminal to to bring them all and in the darkness bind... err... send commands to them."

17:44 * josteink is definitely in the creative phase of the website design now

17:45 technomancy: http://first.clojure-conj.org/speakers#mcgranaghan

17:45 josteink: haha. nice

17:46 I was thinking more about linux than ring though ;)

17:46 ivaraasen: hyPiRion: definitely. it will probably take a couple of iterations before they come up with the right abstractions though. core libraries aren't supposed to break backwards compatibility that often, I believe

17:46 josteink: didn't know "ring" came from such a deep metaphor though

17:46 technomancy: well... not really

17:47 more like Wagner

17:47 the request/response cycle

17:47 is shaped like a ring

17:47 josteink: fair enough

17:47 technomancy: (not actually Wagner, just making a "ring cycle" joke)

17:47 * josteink starts looking for some old infographics he has from MS teaching material

17:48 ivaraasen: technomancy: that's still pretty deep, man

17:48 hyPiRion: ivaraasen: Yeah. At least it's a start. It would probably take some time to get it up too, from my JIRA experiences.

17:50 ChongLi: das rheingold!

17:50 technomancy: kind of disappointed there aren't more wagner-themed ring libraries actually

17:51 * josteink gives up. those old gems of powerpoint madness are gone :(

17:53 seangrove: Bodil: Maybe I have a typo in here somewhere, but getting this error: clojure.lang.ExceptionInfo: Could not locate pylon/macros__init.class or pylon/macros.clj on classpath: at line 1 {:tag :cljs/analysis-error, :file nil, :line 1}

17:53 Here's the code I'm trying to eval: https://www.refheap.com/paste/05eeaac85264aee5dc0cd5f8b

17:53 It compiles without warning and loads, but after connecting the browser to nrepl, I get the above error

17:54 Maybe this is expected and I'm just confused

17:54 Bodil: seangrove: So it's the (ns) that doesn't eval?

17:55 seangrove: Hrm, actually, let me try restarting my nrepl server

17:55 Bodil: seangrove: Sounds like it's got classpath issues - afraid that's a bit beyond me. But definitely not expected.

17:55 seangrove: No problem, just glad to clarify :)

17:56 What was the problem with advanced mode, by the way?

17:57 tomoj: (.contains (base32-encode (hmac "HmacSHA1" "foo" "foobarbaz")) "JAVA")

17:58 Bodil: seangrove: It's currently doing things like class.prototype["method"] = function instead of class.prototype.method = function to define methods; Closure Compiler leaves the former unmangled, but not the latter. And you're normally calling your methods using the latter, so...

17:59 seangrove: That was the short explanation, at least :)

17:59 seangrove: Yeah, sounds like what I went through as well

17:59 Definitely careful with aset/aget now...

17:59 TimMc: tomoj: ?!

18:00 tomoj: that was the very first thing I tried, too, not like I kept going till I saw a message in the sig

18:00 but what's the PETWHAC?

18:00 seangrove: Bodil: Getting this error now with nrepl-jack-in: Invalid js form js/Object.getPrototypeOf at line 11 file:/Users/sgrove/.m2/repository/org/bodil/pylon/0.1.0/pylon-0.1.0.jar!/pylon/classes.cljs

18:01 I can fix that up and submit a pr...

18:01 Bodil: seangrove: Hmm, what cljs version are you using?

18:02 seangrove: Bodil: head

18:02 More or less, I think

18:03 Might be a week or two old now

18:03 Bodil: Weird... that form compiles for me.

18:03 But yeah, it should probably be (.getPrototypeOf js/Object)

18:05 tomoj: I think there's a 1/32^3 = 1/32768 chance of finding a particular length 4 string in a base32-HmacSHA1? so surprise ~= 0

18:07 well 29/32^4 or whatever

18:09 gfredericks: how does core.logic/occurs-check work?

18:10 TimMc: tomoj: I don't know much about HMAC -- does this rely on whatever random init key was used?

18:10 tomoj: the key was "foobarbaz"

18:10 that expression will always return the same result

18:12 TimMc: tomoj: I was trying to reproduce this using javax.crypto but couldn't figure out how to initialize HmacSHA1 with a non-random key.

18:15 tomoj: https://github.com/kzar/ring-hmac-check/blob/master/src/ring/middleware/hmac_check.clj

18:16 gfredericks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uniform_tiling_54-t2.png

18:16 ^ exploring that with core.logic (or any other paradigm I know of) is mildly maddening.

18:16 tomoj: interesting

18:18 josteink: seangrove: I must admit I found cljs not quite sexy as I expected it to be

18:18 seangrove: josteink: In general, I love it

18:18 Some very painful edges though

18:18 josteink: the idea is good

18:19 but you want to be able to work with everything else wonderful in JS land

18:19 and none of that follows any sort of clojure convention

18:19 tomoj: gfredericks: why core.logic?

18:19 seangrove: Not sure how much is wonderful out there, though

18:19 josteink: seangrove: its sure more wonderful than reinventing a wheel ;)

18:20 seangrove: josteink: In most cases, yes

18:20 tomoj: I wrote something in cljs that did a triangular tiling

18:20 seangrove: But having built some large javascript apps now, I can say, not always :)

18:20 josteink: anyway

18:20 seangrove: We built an mvp on jquery and friends, and it worked alright until it didn't - leaked a lot of memory, speed issues, hard to refactor

18:20 josteink: I wasnt trying to cause a bad vibe. more interested in seeing a cøljs "sucess case"

18:20 seangrove: A lot of that lands on us, but a lot lands on bad practices in the stuff out there

18:21 If you're talking about angular and friends, I'm certainly much more interested though

18:21 gfredericks: tomoj: because I don't have any coordinate system I know of that I can use

18:21 josteink: Ive yet to decide if I like angular

18:21 seangrove: They seem to be writing some clean code, and I don't think it fits in smoothly with cljs yet

18:21 josteink: to be quite honest

18:21 gfredericks: thus a major problem is telling when two descriptions of a square are the same square

18:21 seangrove: Though bbloom would know more about that than me

18:21 Why's that? I haven't used it yet

18:22 It just looks far more suitable than jQuery and the myriad of plugins

18:22 josteink: its a bit too much magic :)

18:22 I like to knkow whats happening, what my contexts are, and to be able to debug my code without the need for breakpoints ;)

18:22 tomoj: oh, you already can generate the squares?

18:23 gfredericks: tomoj: well I can easily generate all paths from a starting point

18:23 but then how can I tell if two paths lead to the same place?

18:23 josteink: also, Im sceptical about buying into a google controlled "open source" project if I can choose not to

18:23 they control enough of the internet already

18:23 tomoj: you mean because of rounding error?

18:23 josteink: they shouldnt have to be in control of MY code :P

18:23 gfredericks: tomoj: no I'm trying to do this in an algebraic way rather than geometric

18:24 so e.g. [:left :up :up :right]

18:24 tomoj: oh, now it makes sense

18:24 very cool

18:24 seangrove: Heh, well, that's one way of looking at it

18:24 gfredericks: well left/right/up/down aren't well defined

18:24 so it's more like forward-left-right-forward or something like that

18:24 this is all very trippy :/

18:26 I'm trying to use unification to some effect or another

18:28 josteink: seangrove: my main complaint about angular is that it seems very fuzzy where the border goes for what is data and what is code

18:28 seangrove: in a bad way, quite unlike in lisps :P

18:30 TimMc: gfredericks: So you need some way of saying what the canonical path to a square is.

18:30 gfredericks: TimMc: that would definitely be useful.

18:33 TimMc: gfredericks: Is there an origin square or an origin vertex?

18:33 gfredericks: may as well assume so

18:33 I'm dealing with vertices at the moment

18:33 TimMc: No, I mean which one?

18:33 gfredericks: so an origin vertex

18:34 I'm trying the approach of ignoring the squares and just thinking of it as a graph where each vertex has 5 neighbors

18:34 just an algorithm that can return the number of vertices within N hops would be an achievement

18:35 or equivalently generate a graph data structure by walking up to N steps from the origin

18:35 s/equivalently/even better/

18:36 I guess there's slightly more information present than in a regular graph; i.e., the neighbors of a vertex have a sort-of-ordering ("clockwise")

18:37 TimMc: gfredericks: Well, just looking at that diagram, canonical paths could be hard.

18:38 gfredericks: yes. :) I've had this problem in my head for a month at least.

18:38 TimMc: up,right is the same as right,up

18:39 tomoj: this is apparently why you can't use a zipper

18:39 I guess there would be two important directions, down and right

18:40 gfredericks: o_O?

18:40 clojurebot: joyofclojure is http://joyofclojure.com/

18:40 gfredericks: clojurebot: thanks man

18:40 clojurebot: I'm no man, and she's no lady!

18:40 tomoj: I mean you can generate all the vertices with down and right, right? you might call down 'out'

18:41 Bodil: seangrove: Released! https://clojars.org/org.bodil/pylon/versions/0.2.0

18:41 tomoj: and right 'clockwise'

18:41 seangrove: Bodil: Awesome :)

18:41 gfredericks: tomoj: hmmm...you'd still have redundancy. But maybe there is always a unique shortest path?

18:41 seangrove: I've about three more pages of javascript to convert over to pylons and then I can test it out

18:42 gfredericks: tomoj: you're talking about traversing squares, right? not vertices?

18:42 tomoj: vertices

18:42 I'm probably confused

18:42 gfredericks: I'm always confused when I'm thinking about this.

18:43 tomoj: #(-> % out out right right) would just be a noop

18:43 TimMc: gfredericks: Well, this version of canonical paths is probably too complicated: http://i.imgur.com/nvnBiGs.jpg

18:43 gfredericks: tomoj: then I definitely don't know what you're talking about

18:44 josteink: Bodil: out of curiousity... in what cases would be using a library like that?

18:45 augustl: I'm about to implement a "with-reste" type macro that yields an object and ensures it gets a proper teardown via a try/finally, etc. Is there a better way to do this, such as implementing some kind of interface so I can reuse with-open, or something like that?

18:45 gfredericks: TimMc: yeah; I can't tell what's going on there

18:45 josteink: where caused you to see the need and go for it? :)

18:45 gfredericks: augustl: so your issue is that "proper teardown" =/= (.close ob)?

18:45 Bodil: josteink: When you want to deal with heavily class based JS APIs - my use cases were Ace and Backbone.

18:45 TimMc: gfredericks: The idea was to always move forward along either of the middle two options when arriving at a vertex, but that leaves some vertices out, so I was trying to find a way to jump sideways sometimes.

18:46 augustl: gfredericks: not really, currently it's (teardown ob), and ob is a map, and I do stuff with entires in the map

18:46 gfredericks: perhaps I could somehow implement it so all that stuff happens in a .close method

18:46 raylu: hi. i'm fairly new and i had some style questions. is it normal to use let immediately inside a defn like this? https://pastee.org/q9uvj

18:46 gfredericks: TimMc: I thought of that but the three green paths near the top-right seemed to contradict the idea

18:46 augustl: raylu: very normal yeah

18:47 Bodil: augustl: Methods are smelly, you should go ahead and make your macro imo. :)

18:47 augustl: raylu: doto is perhaps better though

18:47 Bodil: but, but, reuse!

18:47 josteink: Bodil: ah. backbone. fair enough. just barely looked into that, but never got going.

18:47 raylu: augustl: i'm only doing two things to mac, though, and one of them is inside the let

18:48 augustl: raylu: ah, misread it

18:48 ivaraasen: hyPiRion: haha https://www.refheap.com/paste/e5c5bca04d7b7206367c03f4e

18:48 raylu: augustl: ok. thanks for confirming :D

18:49 Bodil: josteink: Don't take that as an endorsement, Backbone was just my obvious test case - wouldn't use it myself. :)

18:49 augustl: raylu: your indentation is _very_ unconventional, though

18:50 amalloy: raylu: yes, the code is fine, but the whitespace is very different from what anyone else would do

18:50 raylu: yeah, i noticed. i don't understand why the other is more common. i'm used to this because it let's me move entire lines around easily

18:50 TimMc: gfredericks: Right, but those sprout from a side-path, so that's not too surprising. :-/

18:50 augustl: raylu: you don't use paredit mode with emacs, apparently :)

18:51 TimMc: Damn this is hard.

18:51 amalloy: raylu: https://gist.github.com/b754aa03bb81749c86d1, for reference

18:51 TimMc: gfredericks: Have you already checked for coordinate systems for hyperbolic spaces?

18:51 gfredericks: yeah; it's tricksy

18:52 amalloy: and yeah, it's harder to move around entire lines this way, but...moving around entire lines is just an indication that your editor isn't helping you out: you should be focused more on moving around sexps

18:52 gfredericks: TimMc: my current thought is that there are two/four kinds of relationships between two vertices that are two hops apart

18:53 TimMc: gfredericks: There might be something generalizable from this: http://i.imgur.com/0YWlhvB.jpg

18:53 gfredericks: State machines. :-)

18:53 gfredericks: (sharp-right a b) (dull-right a b) (sharp-right b a) (dull-right b a)

18:53 well insert a c as the second arg in all of those

18:54 (c being the intermediate vertex)

18:54 that might give you the language to express the geometric...shape of the thing

18:55 in any case I'm running out for a few hours. If you win any fields medals let me know.

18:56 hyPiRion: ivaraasen: sweet

18:57 ivaraasen: hyPiRion: mean execution time is about 3 us. a bit slower than Apache Commons probably, but it's probably viable for one-off calculations

18:59 gfredericks: TimMc: just kidding I'm still here. Even if you can get a canonical path, implementing a `neighbors` function doesn't seem straightforward? but maybe it would be

18:59 two neighbors could have arbitrarily different paths; but it might still be easy

19:05 augustl: oh hey, this is the first time I wrote a macro and it worked as I expected the first time I ran it.

19:06 ivaraasen: augustl: congrats

19:06 TimMc: gfredericks: What would be nice would be a graphics program where I can draw lines and color squares and then drag the hyperbolic space to recenter it... but that would probably require having a coordinate system. :-P

19:08 S11001001: this stuff is pretty funny: [System.Diagnostics.CodeAnalysis.SuppressMessage("Microsoft.Naming", "CA1709:IdentifiersShouldBeCasedCorrectly")]

19:09 https://github.com/clojure/clojure-clr/blob/master/Clojure/Clojure/Lib/RT.cs#L1343

19:10 amalloy: S11001001: CA1709:IdentifiersSHOULDbecaseCoRRectly

19:13 S11001001: CA42:SuppressingWarningsShouldntBeSuchABloodyChore

19:14 ,(take 10 (repeat [42, 84]))

19:14 clojurebot: ([42 84] [42 84] [42 84] [42 84] [42 84] ...)

19:16 gfredericks: TimMc: that's one of my end goals actually

19:17 hyPiRion: ,(repeat 10 [42 84])

19:17 clojurebot: ([42 84] [42 84] [42 84] [42 84] [42 84] ...)

19:17 TimMc: gfredericks: I see.

19:18 gfredericks: Anyway, congratulations. You've successfully nerd-sniped me and my wife.

19:19 "For God's sake, please give it up. Fear it no less than the sensual passion, because it, too, may take up all your time and deprive you of your health, peace of mind and happiness in life." -- Wolfgang Bolyai urging his son János Bolyai to give up work on hyperbolic geometry.

19:19 gfredericks: haha

19:22 it bothers me that the lines in that diagram are straight

19:24 technomancy: S11001001: wow, talk about boilerplate

19:25 S11001001: I think someone has funny ideas about "correctly"

19:25 what it means, that is

19:26 I take it back; it might be fair, I don't know anything about the C# developer community.

19:26 We certainly don't put up with any nonsense-not-like-this.

19:26 amalloy: indeed. the C# guys like PublicMethods to have UpperCamelCase

19:27 S11001001: I know the stdlib is like that

19:27 josteink: S11001001: as a .net developer, the main reason I do JVM-based clojure is that clojure-clr seems all dead :)

19:27 S11001001: josteink: dmiller seems to well keep up with it

19:27 cbp`: I'm unsure what to put in public pgp when registering to clojars, since the public key is in binary

19:28 S11001001: cbp`: use --armor option to gpg

19:28 josteink: cbp`: the public key has a ascii fingerprint of sorts though

19:29 you should be able to get gpg to export the public key, in an ascii-ish format

19:29 cbp`: thank you

19:30 TimMc: --enarmor

19:30 I think

19:30 gfredericks: I think I'm more used to seeing this as fours of pentagons, not fives of squares.

19:33 ThatOneGuy: hola yall. I know this is probably somewhere on the web, but I thought it would be easier to ask here. What is the difference between ` (backquote) and ' (single quote) in clojure? and more specifically in macros?

19:35 S11001001: ThatOneGuy: ' is the true quote (nothing evalled); ` is syntax sugar for a thing that is not that. Neither changes behavior in macros.

19:36 hyPiRion: ,`(vector ~(+ 1 2) ~@(vector :a :b :c)) ; example of backquote

19:36 clojurebot: (clojure.core/vector 3 :a :b :c)

19:36 S11001001: ThatOneGuy: any attempt to rehash all the ` features here would almost certainly miss something.

19:36 hyPiRion: ,'(vector ~(+ 1 2) ~@(vector :a :b :c)) ; normal quote

19:36 clojurebot: (vector (clojure.core/unquote (+ 1 2)) (clojure.core/unquote-splicing (vector :a :b :c)))

19:37 ThatOneGuy: "for a thing that is not that." what do you mean by this? I get the rest of your answer though.

19:37 S11001001: ThatOneGuy: a thing that is not the true quote

19:38 ThatOneGuy: so ` backquote does more expansion than a regular quote? (evals the unquote function and the unquote-splicing)

19:39 or allows for more expanded unquoting

19:39 hyPiRion: ThatOneGuy: As a start, yes. Also notice that ##`(vector ...) returns clojure.core/vector instead of just vector

19:39 lazybot: ⇒ (clojure.core/vector ...)

19:40 hyPiRion: To top it all off, symbols can be appended with a # to create gensyms

19:40 ThatOneGuy: so fully qualifies function names?

19:40 hyPiRion: ThatOneGuy: Yes

19:40 raylu: ok. so... what does :cost do? https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc

19:40 hyPiRion: ,`(let [foo# 100] (+ foo# 999))

19:40 clojurebot: (clojure.core/let [foo__79__auto__ 100] (clojure.core/+ foo__79__auto__ 999))

19:41 amalloy: it's just a column in his sql table, raylu

19:41 ThatOneGuy: So when creating DSLs with macros, backquote is better. and when you want a raw list for data use single quote?

19:41 hyPiRion: That's the crash course of macros, I think.

19:42 ThatOneGuy: Yes, that's the standard. Though amalloy could probably tell you how often you should write macros.

19:42 raylu: amalloy: suddenly, the maps part of the cheatsheet makes a lot more sense

19:42 amalloy: who, me?

19:42 hyPiRion: Anyone else named amalloy here?

19:42 raylu: i mean i read (:key my-map) → ( get my-map :key)

19:43 but i had no idea what it meant until you said that, amalloy

19:49 tomoj: gfredericks: http://bulatov.org/math/1001/#(52)

19:50 seen that deck already? pretty neat

19:50 augustl: raylu: also, fyi, it's not a macro, :key is actually a function

19:50 josteink: raylu: you should read the joy of clojure

19:50 augustl: (inc josteink)

19:50 lazybot: ⇒ 1

19:50 josteink: it will walk you trough lots of these things in a very enlightening way

19:51 I think clojure is pretty straight forward, except when its not

19:51 but one of the parts of clojure where small aspects have a big impact in clojure is collections

19:52 and the joy of clojure will walk you through them pretty thoroughly and good

19:52 ThatOneGuy: lol "clojure is pretty straight forward, except when its not" nothing else is like this in the entire world. /s

19:53 josteink: well

19:53 tell me I'm wrong :P

19:53 I dare you :D

19:55 raylu: is == the same as = except only for nums?

19:58 seangrove: Bodil: Slightly confused from some errors here

19:58 If I see: goog.base(this, goog.ui.Container.Orientation.VERTICAL,

19:59 in the closure docs, should I be calling (super this, goog.ui.Con....), or just (super goog.ui.Con...) ?

19:59 Looking at the macro, it looks like you automatically put in the "this"

20:00 Bodil: seangrove: The super macro takes the arguments for the superclass method. It's designed so you won't ever have to worry about passing this around.

20:01 seangrove: Oh, and you can't specify a superclass, it always picks the first one in the prototype chain with the method you're calling.

20:02 ivaraasen: hyPiRion: just got arrseq working, which is doseq, but for arrays. could be nice if you need to have side-effects only.

20:02 seangrove: Bodil: The superclass is chosen from the :extends argument, right?

20:02 I'm not looking to choose the superclass, just trying to translate this closure ui custom component code, which is not particularly nice

20:03 Bodil: seangrove: Yeah, Foo :extends Bar causes goog.interits(Foo, Bar), essentially.

20:03 goog.inherits*

20:03 seangrove: Yeah, thought so

20:05 Bodil: seangrove: goog.base(this, superclass, args) translates simply to (super args)

20:07 seangrove: uh, no, that's not goog.base's signature... but you get the idea :)

20:07 seangrove: So, goog.base(this, goog.ui.Container.Orientation.VERTICAL, ChecklistRenderer.getInstance()); => (super goog.ui.Container.Orientation.VERTICAL (.getInstance ChecklistRenderer))

20:07 Bodil: Yeah, looks right.

20:07 seangrove: Alright, will figure out what's wrong from here then

20:07 devn: I could use a spot of help with luminus. I am deploying to heroku and want to connect my app to an elasticsearch addon. It seems like it's not doing it.

20:07 seangrove: I can't believe what a horrible nightmare extending goog.ui is

20:08 devn: yogthos|away: ^^

20:08 augustl: seangrove: for what it's worth, I spent 3 months writing something in Google Closure I then spent 1 week rewriting in AngularJS, and it was much stabler, and even had more features

20:08 seangrove: Heh, this *is* our re-write from jQuery ;)

20:08 With cljs, augustl ?

20:08 devn: I call (connect! (System/getenv "BONSAI_URL")) in myapp.handler/init

20:09 augustl: seangrove: no just plain JS

20:09 seangrove: the biggest pain was updating the UI after initially creating the DOM elements (or goog.ui.Components)

20:09 devn: I run my server on heroku using: lein with-profile production ring server

20:09 I have :ring {:handler myapp.handler/app} in my project.clj

20:10 gfredericks: TimMc: I think the two are dual

20:10 augustl: with angularjs, everything is lazy, so it doesn't matter if you do some operation the 1st or 2nd or 97th time

20:10 * josteink pokes ninjudd

20:10 josteink: quite a few comitts the last few days ;)

20:12 augustl: seangrove: angularjs is probably not a good fit for clojurescript, though. angular is _all in_ mutability

20:13 raylu: so, (= a b) seems to do a java ==, not a java .equals (right now, a and b are byte-arrays)

20:13 devn: yogthos|away: nevermind, needed to add :init to project.clj

20:13 raylu: but the documentation says otherwise...

20:13 devn: yogthos|away: it might be a good idea to include that by default in the project.clj

20:13 seangrove: augustl: Heh, maybe for the next rewrite then :)

20:13 I've found closure to be very fast, which is nice

20:14 But not a whole lot that's nice beyond that

20:14 Reasonably stable

20:14 augustl: raylu: seems to boil down to clojure.lang.Util/equiv, whatever that might be

20:14 ivaraasen: hyPiRion: and now we've got destructive map! for in-place mapping. fun

20:14 augustl: seangrove: every time I work with raw DOM elements, I wish I had Google Closure there. I like to think of goog.ui.Component as DOM elements on steroids (lifecycle, better event handling, etc)

20:15 raylu: is there a simple way to compare byte arrays?

20:15 augustl: raylu: for byte equality?

20:15 raylu: yes

20:15 cshell: raylu: You'd have to write a for loop I'd imagine

20:15 technomancy: compare seqs over them

20:16 raylu: T.T

20:16 augustl: raylu: here's the Java code for = https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Util.java#L24

20:16 cshell: yeah, or that :)

20:16 augustl: it's a call to .equals it seems

20:16 josteink: raylu: the problem with equality of complex entities is unfortunately not entirely eliminated in clojure ;)

20:16 technomancy: byte arrays are mutable; you can't have two different mutable objects that are equal

20:16 josteink: raylu: or what technomancy said

20:17 technomancy: for background I highly recommend reading "Equal Rights for Functional Objects"

20:17 josteink: hah

20:17 is that book or a blog post?

20:18 technomancy: it's a paper ಠ_ಠ

20:18 clojurebot: equal rights for functional objects

20:18 clojurebot: Equal Rights for Functional Objects is Baker's paper on equality and why it's impossible to define sensible equality in the presence of mutable data structures: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html

20:18 josteink: oooh. now I feel so unacademical

20:18 technomancy: haha

20:18 augustl: papers should have boring titles :S

20:18 technomancy: s'ok; it's just one of my favourite rant topics

20:18 raylu: oh. are you telling me that .equals wouldn't have worked in java either?

20:18 technomancy: especially when there are CLers present

20:18 raylu: I'm saying Java's notion of equality is not particularly useful

20:19 augustl: raylu: it appears that = just ends up calling .equals unless they're numbers, so yeah

20:19 but I'm not sure

20:19 technomancy: it can be used in some limited circumstances, but "do these different objects happen to have the same value during this exact instant" is not the kind of thing you should base a language around

20:20 augustl: and is "this exact instant" atomic for things like byte arrays? :)

20:20 cshell: Thanks for the link, technomancy - I always like to find things like this

20:20 augustl: would be nice if = locked!

20:20 josteink: hahahaha

20:21 I cant foresee the amount of bugs THAT would cause

20:21 seangrove: technomancy: Why when CLers are present?

20:21 josteink: seangrove: I think CLers are rumoured to be the most pedantic of all programmers alive :P

20:21 technomancy: seangrove: because that paper is written by someone who really wants to like CL but is honest about its deep-seated shortcomingsn

20:22 seangrove: technomancy: It has (nearly) no shortcomings

20:22 josteink: I happened to end up at a news years party with a CLer

20:22 seangrove: How could it? The spec is ~1500pages long :P

20:22 josteink: he tried to convince me a seperate namespace for functions was a good thing

20:22 on new years eve

20:22 seangrove: josteink: I like that feature

20:23 technomancy: CLers like to imagine that because their language can expand to include anything that it possesses unlimited power, but for some reason they don't understand that certain types of power (immutability, sane equality, GC, etc) are derived from giving up harmful semantics.

20:23 josteink: I so do not

20:23 seangrove: But I didn't see it as particularly useful

20:23 technomancy: lisp-2 is really wretched in elisp

20:23 seangrove: I didn't know elisp was a lisp-2

20:23 technomancy: makes most higher-order functions so cumbersome to work with that the imperative equivalent ends up being shorter =\

20:24 seangrove: I always use it as though it's not

20:26 gfredericks: tomoj: this presentation is. good.

20:27 * josteink enjoys whisky as old as lisp itself

20:27 josteink: atleast pretty close ;)

20:28 seangrove: I feel like drinking after all this horrible goog.ui stuff

20:29 josteink: you know

20:29 I spedn way too much time on HN

20:30 but one of the discussions I read there was about CLJS

20:30 * gfredericks has never heard anybody say anything good about HN

20:30 josteink: and the consensus seemed (among many) to be that CLJS really doesnt have that fun, sparkling, dynamic nature which people usually associate with clojure

20:30 technomancy: gfredericks: not even about the good old days?

20:30 gfredericks: technomancy: first I've heard of them

20:31 josteink: and I tend to agree

20:31 technomancy: gfredericks: everyone says it's all gone downhill

20:31 josteink: with CLJS you spend way too much time dealing with bullshit

20:31 things which are not your primary concern

20:31 ivaraasen: oh, the good old days, when no one ate quiche and Fortran seemed like Python in comparison to anything else.

20:31 technomancy: but I don't know whether the good old days were just "back before I was able tell whether I was wasting my time on useless discussions" or not

20:32 josteink: heh

20:32 the only place which hasnt gone downhill is irc

20:32 because it has actually had a decrease in amount of users ;)

20:32 technomancy: freenode is the best social network; no contest

20:33 gfredericks: they never send me emails asking for a photo of my birth certificate

20:33 josteink: haha

20:33 gfredericks: ...yet

20:33 technomancy: actually have been musing on ways in which I could replace my twitter usage with freenode

20:34 raylu: technomancy: bitlbee will.. sort of do that for you

20:34 josteink: Ive decided that I dont -need- twitter

20:34 technomancy: twitter is great for broadcast, but everyone I actually want to have conversations with is on freenode

20:34 raylu: actually I'm thinking of the other direction

20:34 angusiguess: You could limit every irc message to 140 characters.

20:34 josteink: I just open a twitter tab and post stuff if I want to spam it :)

20:34 technomancy: I want my freenode conversations to be accessible on my mobile

20:34 angusiguess: Or use more octothorpes.

20:35 josteink: technomancy: you could always put up a irc XMPP proxy into a gtalk account

20:35 technomancy: but that would probably make your (android) cellphone go crazy :P

20:35 technomancy: so they can fill the "checking up on useless information" gap that I currently use twitter for; more of a compulsive need to gather data

20:35 gfredericks: tomoj: this is maybe the most amazing thing I've seen in months or something

20:35 amalloy: technomancy: surely your mobile has an irc client. so you must mean something else i'm not quite following

20:36 technomancy: amalloy: mobile IRC clients are incredibly poor

20:36 josteink: raylu: bitlbee works. but is not very friendly for mobile

20:36 technomancy: I don't necessarily want to focus on a real-time conversation

20:36 I'd rather have summarization and search features

20:36 amalloy: mine's not bad, but i suppose i don't really ask for much given that my desktop client is pretty poor

20:37 ivaraasen: I use way too much mail

20:37 josteink: I've stopped using desktop irc clients ages ago

20:37 I like having a session running anytime, anywhere

20:38 technomancy: amalloy: you don't use ERC?

20:38 josteink: which I can attach to when I need it :)

20:38 amalloy: no. i use erc for editing code. shameful, i know

20:39 er, emacs

20:39 gfredericks: man that was almost interesting

20:39 technomancy: was going to say, that's a neat trick

20:39 ivaraasen: anyone interested in looking at some utility stuff for doing primitive numerics in Clojure? (Flop-ish)

20:39 amalloy: heh, yes. any clojure program i can't fit in an irc message isn't worth writing

20:40 technomancy: /msg ~/src/leiningen/project.clj sed -i s/clj-http "0.5.7"/clj-http "0.5.8"/

20:40 josteink: anyway

20:40 might be coincidence

20:40 might be something else

20:41 but your (final) release of leiningen 2.0.0 seemed to have woken up projects around the clojure-verse

20:41 :)

20:41 ThatOneGuy: another quick question. What does a solitary keyword value do a function body? e.g. (defn something [func] :fn func)

20:42 amalloy: nothing

20:42 josteink: nothing

20:42 it checks if that func is a map which contains a key with the keyword :fn, and in that case retrieves the value associated with that key

20:42 and in all other cases it is falsey

20:44 jeremyheiler: jsteink, i think you're assuming there are parens around ":fn func"

20:44 josteink: I realized that as well. afterwards

20:45 jeremyheiler: heh

20:45 ivaraasen: josteink: by the way, you're Scandinavian?

20:46 ThatOneGuy: (defmacro component [name params & r] `(defn ~name ~params ~@r))

20:46 (component renderable [func] :fn func)

20:46 does that help give some context?

20:47 josteink: ivaraasen: obviously.

20:47 and you stick out like a sore thumb :P

20:49 ThatOneGuy: [(renderable `(custom-render-func))] so would that be putting the keyword :fn and func inside the vector?

20:49 josteink: yes

20:49 jeremyheiler: ThatOneGuy, invoking renderable will just return the value of func because it is the last expression in the function body.

20:50 josteink: or that :P

20:50 ThatOneGuy: so the function would be added to the vector and not the keyword

20:52 josteink: jeremyheiler: wouldnt it just return the function as is? since its never really invoked?

20:52 I mean not to be nitpicking details, but this is definitely a details type question ;)

20:52 ivaraasen: josteink: I get PMs all the time asking me if I'm Turkish for some reason

20:52 jeremyheiler: the fact that the value of func is a function is by happenstance, if the value of func is a function, then yes the function will be return.

20:54 ThatOneGuy, [(user/custom-render-func)] is what your vector would look like

20:54 That is because '(custom-render-func) is the last argument supplied to renderable.

20:55 * josteink gets some sleep

20:57 ThatOneGuy: ok. I'm going through the game [ChromaShift](https://github.com/ibdknox/ChromaShift), and it looks like he is putting a :fn (custom-render-func) in the vector because he grabs it out to render each entity, so I must be missing something

21:01 jeremyheiler: That compnent macro is different than yours.

21:01 ThatOneGuy: yeah, I was trying to translate it to regular clojure, because I don't want to use clojurescript.

21:01 TimMc: gfredericks: http://bulatov.org/math/1101/webtalk.html#%2821%29 and the next few slides may be interesting.

21:02 gfredericks: I'm not sure that slide actually indicates a non-overlapping enumeration scheme, though.

21:02 jeremyheiler: TheOneGuy, right, so you can see that ultimately a string and keyword are passed into the js-obj function.

21:03 gfredericks: TimMc: I saw that; doesn't suggest anything to me though :/

21:03 jeremyheiler: along with whatever happens to be in r.

21:04 ThatOneGuy: yeah. and in js-obj it calls (apply gobject/create keyvals)

21:04 jeremyheiler: so if name="foo" and r=(:x :y), then the function is (cljs.core/js-obj "name" :foo :x :y)

21:05 gfredericks: it just occurred to me that (repeat x) could return a special ISeq for which rest returns itself

21:05 ThatOneGuy: yeah. then gobject/create probably creates a javascript object from those keyvals and that is what is stored in the vector

21:06 jeremyheiler: probably

21:06 ThatOneGuy: so I guess the thing I need to understand to translate this better is the letc macro, as that is what is used to get then renderable component out of an entity

21:06 TimMc: gfredericks: http://bulatov.org/math/1101/img/dod_tiling_01.jpg :-D

21:07 gfredericks: cube-like dodecahedrons!

21:09 TimMc: I think I might like the pentagon version better, at least for playing Go

21:12 jeremyheiler: ThatOneGuy, I guess that depends on what pairs is. It's basically doing some stuff to create a bunch of bindings for a let, which puts all those bindings in context of the body.

21:14 ThatOneGuy: ](letc e [rend :renderable], so the pairs (I think) describe the let binding name to use and keyword to grab from the underlying datastructure

21:14 ignore the first ] idk why that is there

21:18 seangrove: Bodil: Is pylon aware of the difference in calling super in instance methods versus prototype methods?

21:20 bbloom: Raynes: I can only assume that you want me to ask this:

21:20 jeremyheiler: ThatOneGuy, that sounds legit, but I really don't know what js/Game.as is.

21:20 bbloom: Raynes: "What's updoc?"

21:23 amalloy: bbloom: yes, that is why he named it updoc

21:23 bbloom: amalloy: clearly :-)

21:23 i looked at it, so id ont even want to know the answer to that question

21:23 ThatOneGuy: so do you know how I would convert that to regular clojure? where I could add a :renderable-fn keyword and value to the vector so I can grab the function later?

21:24 jeremyheiler: You would at least need to have a map that maps a keyword to function. If you want to get any fancier, that's your choice.

21:25 Alas, I really don't know the reasoning behind all of this, so I can't really help you with the design.

21:27 ThatOneGuy: true. In his game, he is using something called the component-entity-system (CES) model for modelling game entities in a functional language. and I am trying to convert that to regular clojure to use in a game project of mine.

21:27 seangrove: pylon seems to die if called from a prototype's method ('this' is undefined in that case, so super won't work properly)

21:28 ThatOneGuy: I like the elegance of entities being defined as [:player [(component-1) (component-2)]] but it looks like I need a more verbose solution like [:player {:renderer (renderable-component) …}]

21:29 jeremyheiler: ThatOneGuy, perhaps a better approach would be to figure out what all the cljs.core/* and js/* functions do and keep the rest as-is.

21:30 Unless you really want to get into all the details first.

21:32 ThatOneGuy: thanks. gotta head home. brb

21:41 Raynes: amalloy: Good work on updoc's name. Didn't take long until people caught on.

21:41 amalloy: did you announce it recently or something?

21:42 Raynes: amalloy: I just pushed it to Github yesterday is all. I didn't 'announce' it. It's like the most useless thing I've ever made.

21:51 ivaraasen: Raynes: it's pretty sweet to see how easy it's to do stuff like this in Clojure, though.

22:03 rl: o.O

22:03 think i found a bug in the interpreter

22:03 CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: template-list in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1:1)

22:03 erm

22:04 => (agility.template/eval-template-list template-list (["Somestr" "Hello" "(inc 1)"] ["Somestr" "Hello2" "(inc 2)"]))

22:04 it ignores the eval- part

22:04 if i do eval2 then

22:04 (agility.template/eval2-template-list template-list (["Somestr" "Hello" "(inc 1)"] ["Somestr" "Hello2" "(inc 2)"]))

22:04 CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: agility.template/eval2-template-list, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1:1)

22:04 jeremyheiler: You sure it's not referencing the template-list right after it?

22:06 rl: yeah, hold on igot to dig deeper..i'm not using macros here or anything

22:07 jeremyheiler: The error indicates that "template-list" does not exist. If you type a random symbol into your repl, you'll get the same "unable to resolve symbol" compiler exception.

22:07 rl: jeremyheiler: the problem is i was using (eval-template-list ...)

22:08 it should say eval-templte-list dosen't exist, not template-list

22:08 oh

22:08 <_<

22:08 sorry

22:08 lol

22:09 i see what your saying, yes my bad lol

22:09 jeremyheiler: heh, no problem ;-)

22:13 yedi: how can I change the current working directory in an nrepl

22:14 looks like you can't do that in java..? so how can i get nrepl to start with q certain working directory

22:15 cshell: is it setting the java run directory property?

22:17 TimMc: gfredericks: Funny you should say that, I got overloaded with hyperbolic geometry and Alex suggested playing Go.

22:17 cshell: is it the user.dir property?

22:20 yedi: i solved my issue by running lein repl from the terminal and running nrepl in emacs (instead of nrepl-jack-in)

22:28 Raynes: There is no interpreter.

22:51 yedi: does anyone know of data sets similar to http://wordnet.princeton.edu/wordnet/

22:56 cshell: Like these? http://richard.cyganiak.de/2007/10/lod/

22:57 wordnet is in there, so maybe that's what you're looking for

23:05 dabd: can someone help me with the following macro? https://gist.github.com/4646206

23:06 it generates a function but when i call it like this: ((parse-stack-interval "9.0,9.7-10.8,19.1+") 19.1) it returns false

23:06 however if i call directly the result of the macroexpansion (macroexpand-1 '(parse-stack-interval "9.0,9.7-10.8,19.1+")) it returns true

23:14 yedi: oh yessss, just remembered i can leverage java libraries

23:42 mmarczyk: dnolen: ping

23:45 amalloy: dabd: there's no parse-stack-interval function in that paste

23:49 but assuming you meant interval-test-fn, it's because 19.1 is a double, and (Float/parseFloat "19.1") is a float: ##(>= 19.1 (float 19.1))

23:49 lazybot: ⇒ false

23:49 amalloy: when you take the macroexpanded output and type it back in, it goes through the reader again, which parses the function body as doubles, not floats

23:51 dabd: amalloy: i just renamed things a bit it's the interval-test-fn macro

23:52 so i should parse the string as a double?

23:52 amalloy: *shrug* it depends what you want, probably. mostly you should just be careful not to compare doubles with floats

23:53 dabd: ok thanks

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