#clojure log - Jan 12 2013

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0:00 bpr: M-, will bring you back to where you were before doing M-.

0:02 tmciver: Those are nice. Now if only I could remember to use them.

0:17 technomancy: nrepl's M-. is kinda broken since you can't do it on a fresh buffer

0:18 who-calls would be nice, but swank's implementation was not very good

0:18 headshot: technomancy: upgraded to sun jdk 1.7.0_147, and things seem to work now, i was using sun jdk 1.6.0

0:18 frozenlock: I miss swank-clojure C-c I :)

0:19 technomancy: headshot: weird, 1.6 should work fine

0:20 frozenlock: I have a WIP to port that

0:21 headshot: at any rate, this is the bomb. thanks.

0:21 frozenlock: ٩(^‿^)۶

0:22 headshot: now see if i can get it to work on osx

0:22 technomancy: frozenlock: https://github.com/technomancy/javert

0:22 frozenlock: "Nothing to see here yet. Move along."

0:22 technomancy: frozenlock: no nice client-side UI for it, but operates over stdout

0:23 oops

0:23 pushed

0:23 https://github.com/technomancy/javert/blob/master/src/inspector/javert.clj

0:27 xeqi: anyone have nrepl's tab completion working for .clj buffers?

0:27 only works at the repl for me atm

0:30 hmm, M-tab works

0:30 nm, looks like thats how it is suppose to be from the readme

0:31 frozenlock: technomancy: I shall meditate on this. Usually I was just jumping on bean everything I needed to see something.

0:33 bpr: frozenlock: what was swank-clojure's C-c I?

0:34 tomoj: bpr: this is `C-c I clojure.lang.ISeq`: https://www.refheap.com/paste/5f0da2122eaba374846108061

0:35 supposedly it's navigable, though that never worked for me

0:43 bbloom: tomoj: thanks again for the help with the reducers stuff. it paid off :-)

0:44 tomoj: the transducers stuff is all polished up and available in this file https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp/blob/master/src/bbloom/fipp/transduce.clj

0:48 frozenlock: Could someone explain to me what's the difference between macroexpand and macroexpand-1? They seem to do the same thing...

0:48 tmciver: macroexpand-1 only does one level of macro expanding.

0:49 frozenlock: Oh! And I have only have one level... I see...

0:49 Thanks :)

0:49 tmciver: np

0:50 bbloom: ,(macroexpand '(-> a b c d))

0:50 ,(macroexpand-1 '(-> a b c d))

0:50 clojurebot: (d (clojure.core/-> (clojure.core/-> a b) c))

0:50 (clojure.core/-> (clojure.core/-> a b) c d)

0:50 bbloom: ,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(-> x f y z))

0:50 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>

0:50 bbloom: &(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(-> a b c d))

0:50 lazybot: ⇒ (d (c (b a)))

0:50 bbloom: (> lazybot clojurebot)

0:51 frozenlock: i think the threading macro is the easiest illustration ^^

0:52 tpope: I think it's the worst example ever

0:52 especially if you're trying to explain ->

0:58 technomancy: what HTTP response code would you use for a resource that's not ready yet?

0:58 202?

0:58 bbloom: tpope: well it demonstrates that macroexpand doesn't walk into subforms, only the first form

0:59 headshot: technomancy: 1.1, yeah

1:01 amalloy: an easier example is probably something like ##((juxt macroexpand-1 macroexpand) '(with-in-str "foo" (read))))

1:01 lazybot: ⇒ [(clojure.core/with-open [s__4498__auto__ (clojure.core/-> (java.io.StringReader. "foo") clojure.lang.LineNumberingPushbackReader.)] (clojure.core/binding [clojure.core/*in* s__4498__auto__] (read))) (let* [s__4498__auto__ (clojure.core/-> (java.io.StringReader.... https://www.refheap.com/paste/8408

1:01 amalloy: but i had a surprisingly hard time finding a clojure.core macro whose macroexpand is non-trivially different from its macroexpand-1

1:03 tpope: amalloy: that's a little better yeah

1:04 Sgeo: Oh dear god is someone using clojure.walk/macroexpand-all?

1:26 dsyang: hey all, my friend and I have decided to buckle up and learn clojure this coming semester in our free time

1:28 it looks like clojure 1.5 is just about to be released, though so I'm not sure if we should use clojure 1.5-RC1 because it's about to be the stable version or stick with 1.4

1:28 thoughts?

1:29 tomoj: I'd go with 1.5.0-RC1, personally

1:29 I don't know what would break if anything

1:32 dsyang: tomoj: thanks! Are there any major features that would change how we would write code? I looked through the changelog on git but honestly the terms don't make sense (yet)

1:33 tomoj: It'd suck to learn one it one way from the books/tutorials online only to learn we should write it another way with 1.5

1:34 technomancy: dsyang: everything in 1.5 is additive

1:34 but the changes are very small

1:34 as long as you avoid stuff written for 1.2 you'll be fine

1:36 dsyang: haha that shouldn't be too hard, unless 1.2 was just written a few months ago and development has been blazing fast :P

1:36 technomancy: well google really sucks at recency

1:36 it will give you lots of out-of-date blagh posts

1:37 brainproxy: dsyang: the Clojure Programming book is great, btw

1:39 dsyang: technomancy: yea I've begun to notice the dates on all the posts... too bad SIO doesn't consider dates

1:40 SEO*

1:41 brainproxy: thanks for the tip! Any specific reason why it's so great or is it one of those everything-about-it-is-great

1:41 brainproxy: dsyang: it's the best O'Reilly book I've ever read

1:42 my coworker and I decided to take the Clojure plunge last May

1:42 we (carefully) worked through the book and all the examples in just under 4 weeks, and came away feeling confident that we had a decent grasp of how to start using the language

1:44 dsyang: Nice

1:44 brainproxy: it didn't turn us into clj ninjas, but was a great learning tool and I still refer back to it from time to time

1:45 dsyang: If you don't mind me asking, what kind of programming background did you guys have going into the book?

1:45 brainproxy: two pretty different backgrounds

1:45 for me: JavaScript, some Python and Ruby

1:46 dsyang: My friend and I are coming at it well-versed at ML-like functional languages but have had not lisp and very little JVM experience

1:46 brainproxy: for him: C/C++ freak, strong Java experience

1:47 neither of us had much functional experience, properly speaking, though I was already favoring a functional style in my JS/coffee programming

1:48 I had almost zero Java experience before jumping into Clojure, and it hasn't been that bad

1:48 certainly Leiningen shields you from having to deal with a lot of the Java tooling stuff, e.g. Maven

1:49 dsyang: nice, yea I took a look at http://jrheard.tumblr.com/post/40024238467/getting-started-with-clojure earlier

1:50 sounds like clojure has some good tooling support

1:50 brainproxy: that post is okay, though getting started w/ lein can be easier than he suggests

1:50 i mean "even easier"

1:50 dsyang: oh?

1:50 brainproxy: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5028165

1:51 if you're on linux/mac, just wget or curl the master script

1:51 make it +x and on your path

1:51 then when you run it the first time, it will bootstrap itself

1:51 dsyang: woah

1:51 brainproxy: as long as you have Java installed already, you're good to go

1:52 dsyang: nice thanks for that link!

1:52 brainproxy: sure thing

1:53 dsyang: you guys didn't have to use IDEs right? I mean, I've heard clojure doesn't need them, but not sure is it easier with IDEs

1:53 brainproxy: what editor do you use currently?

1:55 there is a good plugin for Eclipse called "counterclockwise", but a lot of devs find they get by just fine with Emacs or vim

1:56 dsyang: emacs

1:56 hiredman: http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?chxl=0:|0|138|276|414|552|690|828|1:|Other+%E2%80%94+10%25|Clooj+%E2%80%94+3%25|Command-line+REPL+%E2%80%94+26%25|Vim+%2B+vimclojure+%E2%80%94+23%25|Textmate+%2B+textmate-clojure+%E2%80%94+3%25|NetBeans+%2B+Enclojure+%E2%80%94+1%25|IntelliJ+%2B+La+Clojure+%E2%80%94+11%25|Emacs+%2B+SLIME+%E2%80%94+52%25|Emacs+%2B+inferior-lisp+%E2%80%94+6%25|Eclipse+%2B+Counterclockwise+%E2%80%94+18%25&chxs=0,000000,1

1:56 dsyang: no SLIME though

1:56 brainproxy: I'm getting a lot of mileage out of Emacs 24 (http://emacsformacosx.com/) together with the "clojure-mode" and "paredit"

1:57 dsyang: yea I'm using emacs 24 too

1:57 hiredman: http://cemerick.com/2012/08/06/results-of-the-2012-state-of-clojure-survey/ from the state of clojure 2012 survey

1:57 dsyang: just spent all day rewriting my .emacs to not use emacs-prelude

1:57 brainproxy: dsyang: you don't by chance happen to be using bbatsov's "prelude" for Emacs 24?

1:57 dsyang: hiredman: your link is giving me a 404 :(

1:58 that's what I was using yes

1:58 brainproxy: dsyang: then you're good to go

1:58 bbatsov/prelude has clojure-mode and the rest of the goodies you need already included

1:58 hiredman: dsyang: which one? if it is the long one then most likely whatever your url clicker is isn't recognizing the whole url

1:58 brainproxy: hiredman: any chance you could run that link through bit.ly?

1:58 dsyang: the long one, I'll try again

1:59 hiredman: brainproxy: just go to cemericks post if you can't be bothered to copy and paste the whole url

1:59 everything is there

1:59 brainproxy: hiredman: sure, it's just my IRC client makes it cumbersome to copy/paste long things that span multiple lines

1:59 but I'm on the post now

2:00 hiredman: 5NS

2:00 pardon me

2:00 dsyang: brainproxy: I _was_ using prelude, but it had too much stuff I didn't need and didn't understand so I took it out and added in just the stuff I wanted

2:01 brainproxy: dsyang: i see, well the main things you want are clojure-mode and paredit

2:01 dsyang: clojure-mode I have, what's paraedit?

2:01 brainproxy: dsyang: http://emacswiki.org/emacs/ParEdit

2:02 http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PareditCheatsheet

2:02 dsyang: ah right, my b

2:05 what are y'alls thoughts on SLIME?

2:05 bpr: dsyang: all you really need to do to get emacs working is follow the instructions here: https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el

2:06 (after setting up leiningen)

2:06 brainproxy: the general consensus seems to be that nREPL is the future

2:06 i'm still using lein-swank and swank-clojure to good effect (which makes use of SLIME as embedded in clojure-mode)

2:07 bpr: dsyang: if you choose to use nrepl.el take note of: https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el/issues/187

2:09 Raynes: brainproxy: Get that festering infection out of your emacs immediately.

2:10 dsyang: bpr: thanks for the heads up, I think i will go with nrepl, am I correct in that networked repls like this are used so clojure doesn't have to restart java everytime you want to evaluate something?

2:10 Raynes: dsyang: It's so you can have a REPL inside of Emacs, over a network, etc.

2:10 But yes, you don't have to restart every time.

2:10 bpr: essentially. Lisps typically have a REPL-oriented development flow

2:11 dsyang: ah I see

2:11 Raynes: bpr: That issue looks to be fixed.

2:11 bpr: keeping the REPL workflow is the primary motivation for nrepl/slime/etc.

2:11 Raynes: on master

2:11 Raynes: bpr: Yes. I use master.

2:11 bpr: i don't believe it has been released to marmalade yet

2:11 ah

2:11 Raynes: Everybody should use master. Master is great.

2:12 :p

2:12 bbloom: life without a repl isn't worth living...

2:12 bpr: ^

2:12 frozenlock: ^

2:12 bbloom: how do i teach one of the bots to occasionally say that?

2:12 Raynes: bbloom: If you ever find yourself without a REPL, I promise to end it quickly.

2:12 dsyang: moreso than other REPL-enabled languages? I know when I write python I figure out the function calls in a REPL then write code

2:12 brainproxy: Raynes: i tried nREPL a few times in recent months, it felt clumsy to me compared to the experience w/ the swank stuff

2:12 bbloom: Raynes: you're starting to scary me buddy

2:12 scare*

2:13 Raynes: dsyang: Clojure (and most Lisps) are designed in such a way that you can generally write your whole program in a repl if you want.

2:13 ;)

2:13 bpr: dsyang: yes. it's commonly the case that you can write an entire program/feature without shutting down the program

2:14 Sgeo: This makes me feel bad for trying to like Racket

2:14 DrRacket is a bit too much... "restart it if you want to change the code"

2:14 brainproxy: why?

2:14 clojurebot: why not?

2:15 Sgeo: And Geiser (for Emacs) sort of mollifies this I guess, but even there, exceptions are fatal

2:15 bpr: here's a cool demo of what a repl can enable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTxNnYfWHOw

2:15 Sgeo: (like in Clojure, but unlike CL)

2:15 bpr: though that's about clojurescript rather than clojure... similar enough

2:15 bbloom: i prefer to restart my repl right before any major code push. i generally don't restart it when i'm working locally, but if i move around namespaces or make a lot of changes, and i want to push to a public repo. then i restart the repl to make sure that the code that's actually in the files loads correctly

2:15 often, i don't even restart my repl when i do that, i just open a second repl and verify there

2:16 brainproxy: i find I use the REPL to spot-test the functions I've defined in disk-backed .clj files

2:16 Raynes: Good heavens, so many new changes in nrepl.el!

2:16 frozenlock: bpr: And now my last productive drop for the night is gone. -_-

2:16 Raynes: I haven't updated in ages, so this is exciting.

2:16 brainproxy: that is, I have lein-ring auto-reloading my namespaces

2:16 bpr: frozenlock: haha

2:17 brainproxy: and the REPL server is embedded in my web app

2:17 frozenlock: Wait.. is this where the clojure conj videos are? Blip didn't change since last year.

2:18 dsyang: wow. Thanks for all the great info guys!

2:18 brainproxy: nowadays though I'm starting to put more and more functions inside Datomic

2:18 bpr: frozenlock: it looks like it is. though i'm not involved with posting clojure vids

2:18 dsyang: especially the clojure/emacs stuff

2:18 brainproxy: which introduces ... other issus

2:18 but sure it fun :D

2:18 *is

2:18 dsyang: what about clojure/vim integration? I ask because my friend that I'm working with is a vim-gal

2:18 frozenlock: brainproxy: is datomic open source yet? :)

2:18 brainproxy: frozenlock: no... wish it was, maybe one day

2:18 bpr: i guess the new vim hottness is foreplay

2:19 * bpr is not a vimer

2:19 Raynes: dsyang: vim-foreplay.

2:20 tpope: ;)

2:20 Raynes: And for the sake of the universe and all things holy, don't make any jokes to her about it being called foreplay. She'll never forgive tpope.

2:20 brainproxy: anyone using vim-foreplay together with angular-strap?

2:20 tpope: I'm going to rename it

2:21 dsyang: hahaha

2:21 no worries, thats one thing I'm not going to mention

2:22 jlewis: i'm curious, do you vim-foreplay users have a way to keep execution output around in a buffer somehow?

2:22 tpope: I spent like weeks fretting over the name, then picked foreplay.vim as a last minute impulse

2:22 ToxicFrog: Why did you pick that?

2:22 jlewis: even though it's way better of a vim plugin than vim-clojure, i do miss having an extra buffer for the output.

2:22 tpope: jlewis: I've got a solution like 80% of the way there

2:22 jlewis: ooh, that's exciting!

2:22 tpope: jlewis: there's a github issue for it. feel free to chime in

2:23 ToxicFrog: foREPLay

2:23 jlewis: i'll check it out

2:23 ToxicFrog: oh

2:23 tpope: 2am grep repl /usr/share/dict/words


2:23 commit, push

2:23 brainproxy: :D

2:24 tpope: fireplace.vim was my working name

2:24 because foreplay isn't in /usr/share/dict/words on os x

2:25 dsyang: shame on os x

2:25 Raynes: tpope: Fireplace is nice, dude. Why did you use foreplay?

2:26 tpope: you know how your judgement starts to get weird around 2am?

2:26 maybe that's just me

2:26 Raynes: No. I wrote laser entirely at 2AM.

2:26 I never do anything unless it is 2AM.

2:26 tpope: well I can still code at 2am

2:27 also, change 2am to wakeup time + 16 hours

2:27 18 hours

2:27 dsyang: I think I've committed more between the hours of 2-6AM than 9-5...

2:28 Raynes: https://github.com/Raynes/laser/graphs/punch-card

2:29 tpope: https://github.com/tpope/vim-foreplay/graphs/punch-card *shrug*

2:30 not sure how useful that is, I rebase like nobody's business

2:32 bbloom: https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp/graphs/punch-card <-- also got a nice 2am spike

2:32 i like this comparing sleep habits game, it makes me feel slightly more like a human

2:36 dsyang: Speaking about sleep habits, I need to fix mine before school starts. Thanks for all the help guys!

2:36 bbloom: i'm sure somebody over in #haskell can lul you to sleep with a lecture about monads

2:37 dsyang: bbloom: won't help, I'd be fascinated

2:55 bpr: tomoj: SLIME/clojure-swank's C-c I is indeed very neat!

2:57 tomoj: do you happen to know what the name of the emacs function that implements that is?

2:57 * bpr is thinking of implementing it for nrepl.el

3:13 amalloy: bpr: C-h k C-c I, tada

3:14 bpr: amalloy: i don't have slime installed... was trying to avoid installing it

3:22 amalloy: bpr: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Inspector.html is on the first page of google results for `emacs "C-c I"`

3:22 bpr: haha

3:22 touche!

3:22 thanks :)

3:23 frozenlock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyGggdg31mc 40min... to learn that the code will be proprietary :(

5:06 tomoj: https://www.refheap.com/paste/66b52069e8fd888cf3f32d457

5:08 bbloom: tomoj: hmm interesting. what are you using that for?

5:10 tomoj: mostly experimenting with it for ring client middleware

5:14 but I also imagine e.g. writing combinators for reaching into a dominion game state

5:17 sometimes I think about improper combinators and wonder if I just want factjor instead

5:17 bbloom: tomoj: cool. i'm interested to see how it turns out! i really like the idea of working with "paths" in the style of update-in, get-in, assoc-in

5:17 which i assume is pretty much all you're doing internally

5:18 it's a surprisingly effective strategy that has some of that magic feel when i first groked the utility of file systems as a programming model

5:19 i hope that you get some cool results! i'm off to bed

6:29 juxovec: hi, is there anything like Acid-state (http://acid-state.seize.it/) for clojure?

6:30 I mean some kind of "database" which seems like normal data structure, where I can do all functions map, filter and so on but is serialized to HDD automatically

6:35 sandbags: anyone know of a documentation app for the iPad that has the Clojure reference stuff in it?

6:35 i have a web link to the clojure docs pages but it's not ideal for searching/browsing

6:36 aperiodic: why not load up the cheat sheet? that seem like it'd be more than handy enough

6:36 sandbags: meh

6:36 it's okay

6:37 but it'd be nice to have something optimised for doc browsing

8:24 gmontou: Can anyone recommend a good emacs color theme?

8:33 Raynes: gmontou: I use tomorrow-night.

8:33 gmontou: Solarized is also nice.

8:54 hyPiRion: I use solarized light and find it delicious

8:54 Though I'm a "I use white instead of dark"-kind of develpoer

8:56 babilen: gmontou: I've settled on wombat (on emacs, i tend to use molokai with vim), but there are plenty and you should try a few.

9:06 scottj: babilen: tried my wombat+ for emacs?

9:07 babilen: http://jaderholm.com/color-themes/color-theme-wombat+.el if you're interested

9:07 babilen: scottj: No, I did not. But I /very/ rarely use emacs these days. Either way: Where can I find it? And what is "+" about it?

9:07 merci

9:07 scottj: babilen: just a lot more faces than other wombat themes

9:08 babilen: scottj: Is it on elpa?

9:08 scottj: babilen: yeah it's an old version but good enough

9:12 hyPiRion: Oh, seems like Halloway pushed up Clojure RC2 just now.

9:13 1.5 that is.

9:21 babilen: hyPiRion: I don't see it on maven.org -- where did you find it? changelog somewhere?

9:21 hyPiRion: babilen: Oh, on github

9:22 babilen: Ah, right :)

9:22 sandbags: tpope: ping

9:27 * babilen promises a dram of whisky to whoever merges the patch in http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1098 (or implements CollFold and IKVReduce for nil)

9:32 hyPiRion: heh

10:21 tpope: sandbags: pong

10:46 sandbags: tpope: hi there ... wanted to talk about foreplay.vim if you've a minute?

10:48 bluebat: ,(+ 1 1)

10:48 clojurebot: 2

10:49 tpope: sandbags: shoot

10:50 sandbags: tpope: so, first q... should it work okay with MacVim?

10:50 tpope: yes

10:50 sandbags: good start... okay so i updated to the latest MacVim last night, then followed the install instructions for foreplay with pathogen

10:51 started lein repl in my project then opened a .clj file, used :Connect which seemed to work, but :cq seemed to blow MacVim up

10:51 tpope: blow up how?

10:51 sandbags: however it died without the usual OSX crash reporter... MacVim just vanished

10:51 not sure if you use OSX, but there was no diagnostic report in ~/Library/Logs/Diagnostic Reports either

10:52 although, apparently, Vim may log things somewhere else... but i've struggled to figure out where so far

10:53 tpope: try from the command line. symlink mvim to vim, then run that vim

10:53 you'll at least clearly see a crash

10:54 sandbags: not sure i follow... symlink mvim -> vim right? Does that change how mvim works?

10:54 tpope: it makes it spawn in the terminal

10:54 sandbags: gotcha

10:56 okay so it still dies, but there's nothing printed to the console

10:56 tpope: does it look identical to what happens with ;q?

10:56 wait, what command are you running?

10:56 sandbags: ";q?" is a vim command? sorry i'm not a Vim expert

10:57 tpope: :q is how you exit vim

10:57 sandbags: ah the ; was what confused me

10:57 tpope: : not ;

10:57 sandbags: yes it's as if i had quit

10:57 with :q

10:57 tpope: so what are you typing, exactly?

10:58 sandbags: ":cq" have I done something daft... i thought that was the command to execute stuff in the repl

10:58 tpope: no colon

10:58 :cq exits vim

10:58 sandbags: ah damnit

10:58 yes of course, there's no ":" in your instructions

10:58 brain fault

10:58 sorry about that

11:01 okay, working now ... of :cq i didn't put together that it would do the same as :q ... feel daft now :)

11:02 tpope: that's an unfortunate coincidence

11:02 :cq is how you quit with a nonzero exit status

11:02 sandbags: ah

11:04 so Eval% is working great, the cq console is a bit baffling so far ... do i need to read up on Vim "q:" to understand it?

11:05 tpope: yeah

11:05 or start with cqp

11:07 sandbags: thx

11:41 technomancy: nrepl.el has as many open issues as leiningen, yikes

12:00 dbushenko: cemerick, hi! have you a minute? one question about Clojure Programming

12:01 is anyone here?

12:03 cemerick: dbushenko: shoot

12:05 dbushenko: great!

12:05 I'm helping in translating Clojure Programming to russian

12:05 and have the follwing misunderstanding:

12:06 p.21, sentence: "Vars are defined in Clojure using the def special form, which only ever acts within the current namespace."

12:06 well, as I see it, everything what is defined in Clojure, is immutable

12:06 so the symbol which I define with def is immutable, not variable

12:06 isn't it?

12:07 cemerick: dbushenko: namespaces are mutable

12:08 What def does is intern (a.k.a. map) a symbol to a var within *ns*

12:08 dbushenko: so what is "var" in general?

12:08 cemerick: dbushenko: re: translation: are you working with O'Reilly?

12:09 dbushenko: no, the translator is working. I'm just helping him, correcting mistakes and so on

12:09 cemerick: dbushenko: A var is one of Clojure's reference types; it defines a stable, global identity.

12:09 ah

12:09 dbushenko: so what about def? does it really define a var?

12:10 cemerick: Yes, that is its purpose.

12:12 dbushenko: hmmm... thanks... I have to read the documentation more precisely

12:12 cemerick: dbushenko: vars are covered in depth in...chapter 4 IIRC

12:13 dbushenko: aha, I see. but the differ from reference types such as ref or atom

12:14 they can be rebound, but not changed, aren't they?

12:17 cemerick: dbushenko: each reference type has its own particular change semantics

12:17 vars can be redefined "forcibly" (via def) or atomically modified (via alter-var-root) or modified in a thread-local way (binding)

12:19 dbushenko: so when I define (def a 1), "a" is really a variable?

12:21 borkdude: dbushenko variable as in subject to change, yes

12:22 dbushenko: there is some global misunderstanding, I think. We don't use def-ed vars as variables, say in Java

12:22 we don't change them, we just read them

12:23 that's why I'm trying to understand whether I can call them "variables" at all

12:23 since they are (usually) immutable

12:26 AdmiralBumbleBee: variable implies it could be mutated

12:26 not that it _must_ be

12:27 and for that matter, it simply means a value in modern parlance

12:29 dbushenko: AdmiralBumbleBee, so you think, def-ed vars -- are "variables" in the meaning that they could be mutated?

12:30 cemerick: dbushenko: you shouldn't ever use the word for 'variable' to refer to any clojure reference type

12:30 'variable' implies unrestricted arbitrary mutation

12:31 dbushenko: yeah! that's what I really wanted to hear from you! thanks!

12:31 AdmiralBumbleBee: dbushenko: in clojure world, no

12:31 since a var is something specific

12:32 I thought I was in another channel

12:32 cemerick: 'var' is a technical term, and should probably be used literally

12:32 * cemerick is certainly not a book translation expert :-P

12:34 dbushenko: cemerick, great, thanks for your explanations! :-)

12:49 does clojure have any "operator" or all are functions?

12:51 borkdude: dbushenko clojure has primitives

12:51 dbushenko like let, fn, def etc, they are built-ins

12:52 dbushenko: but I can redefine them

12:52 borkdude: dbushenko and a lot of core functions like + delegate to thing in RT.java

12:53 dbushenko you can't redefine primitives like let, but you can redefine vars, even in clojure.core

12:53 dbushenko: well, looks like all of them are defined with "defn"

12:53 even "defmacro"

12:53 borkdude: dbushenko I mean you can't redefine def itself, but you can redefine what is deffed

12:56 dbushenko with primitive, I actually meant the special forms here: http://clojure.org/special_forms

12:57 dbushenko: looks like you are right

12:58 but they aren't operators, they are special forms

13:08 jmorton: Does anyone have suggestions for a good problem to solve (after finishing the koans and project euler)?

13:10 ravster: hello all

13:10 dbushenko: try implementing a multithreading version of the 'find' utility. this is nice to see Clojure power in action

13:11 jmorton: dbushenko: ah, good idea… thanks :)

13:12 dbushenko: jmorton, btw, ping me if you will get a comparable with 'find' performance

13:12 I could reach the performance of my version of find only ten times slower than the original :-(

13:14 jmorton: alrighty, I'll see what I can come up with today and tomorrow… I'll ping you via github if that's okay

13:14 dbushenko: great!

13:29 hiteki: hi

13:49 thearthur: lein new is failing for me today complaining about missing dependency lein-newnew

13:49 but only today? not yesterday?

13:50 $ lein new hello Could not find artifact lein-newnew:lein-newnew:jar:0.3.7

13:51 (lein2 that is)

13:55 nvermind, found the liein issue on this :)

14:03 lunamystry: Hello, I am new to clojure and emacs and I am trying to quickly get going with the brepl .

14:04 I am actually looking for something like lein cljsbuild auto

14:04 through the brepl though

14:05 for some reason lein cljsbuild once/auto just slows my system down and I can't run anything else when its busy running

14:15 ivan: lunamystry: you might want to nice -n 19 the thing, Closure Compiler uses all your cores

14:31 lunamystry: I will try it now ivan, I just realised that ClojureScript up and running recommends Oracle's jdk over openjdk so I just installed that

14:32 ivan: I can't imagine it making a difference for ClojureScript

14:45 pppaul: i'm using lein ring, and when i do `ctrl + c` i still have a program running in the background...

14:46 how am i supposed to go about killing my server?

14:47 lunamystry: @ivan thank you for your suggestion. It seems to have worked.

14:48 I have firefox and lein cljsbuild auto running and clementine running. THIS could not happen before

14:48 weavejester: pppaul: ctrl-c should kill it. Which operating system are you using?

14:50 pppaul: ubuntu

14:51 ubuntu 12.10

14:52 weavejester: pppaul: Odd. Java processes should handle interrupts okay.

14:52 pppaul: Have you set a :destroy function that might be taking a while?

14:54 pppaul: no :destory

14:54 no :init

14:55 maybe i should use those

14:55 weavejester: pppaul: Any background threads that might have been started which would cause the app to hang?

14:56 pppaul: rabbitmq thread

14:57 weavejester: pppaul: Maybe that's the issue

14:57 pppaul: ok, i'll look into it (have to fix that code anyway since it's maxing out my cpu)

14:57 the :destory should kill that thread, i'm guessing

14:58 any special stuff about :destroy?

15:03 yogthos: weavejester: ping? :)

15:03 weavejester: yogthos: what's up?

15:04 yogthos: weavejester: I was thinking when defining routes, you often end up doing something like (GET "/foo" [bar baz] (handle bar baz))

15:04 weavejester: yogthos: That's true

15:04 callen: why does DropWizard have so much...crap?

15:04 yogthos: weavejester: would it make sense to allow defining routes by doing (GET "/foo" handle) and use whatever the function defines as the destructuring

15:05 I imagine that would involve a bit of macro magic :)

15:05 weavejester: yogthos: It's an interesting idea

15:06 yogthos: I'd need to think about it.

15:06 yogthos: weavejester: seems like it shouldn't clash with any existing functionality

15:07 weavejester: yogthos: It does add an new syntax though

15:07 yogthos: weavejester: yeah it's a bit different from all the other definitions where it's params then body

15:08 weavejester: yogthos: And you can already do something like (defn handle [{{:keys [bar baz]} :params}] …)

15:08 yogthos: and then (GET "/foo" [] handle)

15:08 yogthos: weavejester: yeah I guess that isn't too bad, and more idiomatic

15:09 weavejester: was just an idea :)

15:09 weavejester: yogthos: Ideas are good

15:09 yogthos: There's certainly room for improvement

15:10 yogthos: weavejester: I think it's always good not to rush features in, once people start using something it's impossible to get rid of :)

15:10 headshot: *cough* rails

15:10 yogthos: :P

15:10 weavejester: yogthos: That's my thought too. However, if you have an ecosystem made out of small libraries, you can always create a new library to try something out

15:11 yogthos: the worst thing is when features start interacting in funny ways and then you have the extra mental overhead of keeping track of what does what

15:11 weavejester: Which reminds me about a pull request to Ring someone posted.

15:11 yogthos: weavejester: what'd they add?

15:11 weavejester: yogthos: https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/pull/36

15:11 No description

15:12 yogthos: yeah first thing I noticed :)

15:12 weavejester: Going to recommend they try it out in a library first.

15:12 yogthos: yup

15:13 looks like middleware for supporting locales

15:13 at least it comes with tests, that's a bonus

15:18 muhoo: if you kick off a future to do something for side-effects (i.e. sending an email), how long does java keep it around before gc'ing it?

15:19 the result in this case could be a fairly portly object

15:21 callen: muhoo: implementation/tuning specific

15:22 muhoo: I'm not trying to be an asshole, you need to be specific.

15:22 muhoo: well, what i'm curious about is, if "forever, so don't do that" is the correct answer

15:25 gfredericks: so when I `lein trampoline cljsbuild repl-listen` I get a "listening on port 9000" message and then a report that clojure can't find cljsbuild/repl/listen.clj on the classpath o_O

15:26 I feel kind of crazy because I swear this worked yesterday

15:33 JulioBarros: Having problems getting dependencies for cemerick's friend. Am getting "Get Authorization Required" when fetching guice. Any ideas?

15:46 muhoo: JulioBarros, maven central problem? google maven archive problem?

15:47 guice smells like a google thing

15:47 JulioBarros: muhoo: I don't know where the issue is.

15:47 muhoo: gfredericks: try without tramoline?

15:49 JulioBarros: my guess would be that whatever website is hosting guice is screwed up

15:50 trampoline often gives me "can't find foo on classspath" errors. i'm kind of used to just beting on it until it works, or just not using trampoline if i'm in a hurry

15:51 ravster: I have a map that returns a list. I"m trying to do an unquote-splice to get all the elements of the list out of the list, but am getting unbound-fn errors. what am I doing wrong?

15:52 xeqi: JulioBarros: I also get that after clearing my ~/.m cache. looks like someone messed up the guice-maven repo

15:53 hopefully it'll get fixed sometime, but I don't hold my breath for it to happen today

15:53 JulioBarros: xeqi: Do you have a workaround? The friend project.clj has some comments but am not sure what to do about it.

15:53 hiredman: we've had really bad experiences at work with the guice maven artifacts

15:53 e.g. multiple mirrors serving slightly different artifacts, etc

15:54 JulioBarros: ; the openid4java artifact refers to a now-disappeared guice repo that

15:54 ; was previously hosted via google code svn :X

15:54 hiredman: yeah the project file has this comment -

15:55 right above the dependency that I believe is failing ... :(

15:55 xeqi: for my project just using workflows/interactive-form I can add :exclusions [com.google.code.guice/guice] and the tests pass

15:55 but since the comment refers to openid, I think anything in that workflow namespace might not

15:56 callen: technomancy: I see your coworkers read logs.

15:57 muhoo: cemerick was going to split openid out at some point

15:58 xeqi: ah, I see the latest project.clj added a different repo for guice

15:58 I think that was suppose to be released as 0.1.3 soon

15:59 JulioBarros: I would expect something like https://www.refheap.com/paste/8472 to work fine

16:00 with the exclusions and explicit guice dependency

16:00 JulioBarros: xeqi: Actually yes, I just tried that and it works for me. Thanks!

16:27 e_svedang: does anyone know if clojure.tools.trace/dotrace works in Clojure 1.4 ?

16:58 jjl`: hi all, i'm trying to implement an oauth server. does anyone have any experience with libraries that could assist?

17:35 kd4joa: does anyone know if it is possible to use slime with clojure-mode 2.x in emacs? if not, how do I go back to 1.x after upgrading using package.el?

17:43 technomancy: kd4joa: you can do it; just install slime-repl from marmalade, launch a swank-clojure server, and run M-x slime-connect

17:44 kd4joa: I've got that working, but can't interact with the repl from a clojure-mode buffer (C-c C-k doesn't exist, C-x C-e complains about a missing variable)

17:44 technomancy: kd4joa: oh, you'll also need to enable slime-mode inside clojure-mode

17:45 kd4joa: ah yes. of course. thanks! I missed that

17:46 technomancy: should probably document that somewhere

17:50 kd4joa: no problem. I should have know that.

18:25 tbaldrid_: is there a way to pprint records without having them print out as hashmaps

18:25 ?

18:26 hyPiRion: tbaldrid_: You can define a print-method for them

18:26 tomoj: but pprint won't use print-method by default, will it?

18:26 tbaldrid_: yeah the only thing is that I have about 20 of them.

18:26 println prints them correctly

18:27 hyPiRion: oh right

18:27 bbloom: tbaldrid_: give my new library a try! https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp

18:27 tbaldrid_: lol, I was just at the github page

18:27 I'm about to give it a try

18:27 tomoj: I still don't even know how to extend pprint dispatch

18:28 bbloom: published it yesterday and @puredanger asked for records, so i added them. only took me 5 minutes

18:28 tomoj: yeah, it's a pain

18:28 hiredman: bbloom: ooooh

18:28 bbloom: my lib is much easier to extend, but i haven't fully documented how nor have i completed the extensibility story that i really want to have

18:28 but i'll take simple defmethod patches in the meantime

18:29 hiredman: oh yeah, you were interested in that lib :-) check it out!

18:30 tbaldrid_: you can see how easy it is to patch by looking at edn.clj

18:30 and let me know how it works out for you

18:37 tbaldrid_: bbloom: it works great! but I have fairly long class names, where should I go to either a) remove the namespace from the classnames, or b) indent by only 2-4 chars?

18:37 bbloom: tbaldrid_: https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp/blob/master/src/bbloom/fipp/edn.clj#L32

18:37 instead of :align, you can use :nest 2

18:38 you can just defmethod over it for now

18:39 ibdknox: bbloom: have you tried this in CLJS at all? :)

18:40 ivan: bbloom: thank you for printing \n even on Windows, please resist the \r\n infidels

18:41 bbloom: ibdknox: no, but it shouldn't be hard to port. although i do depend on reducers and finger-trees

18:41 ibdknox: I thought someone added reducers to cljs

18:41 bbloom: ibdknox: edn.clj is the only really jvm specific stuff because the defmethods are the java interface names

18:41 ibdknox: maybe they did, i just didn't look yet

18:42 ivan: i'm a show-whitespace sort of guy. the windows users can deal with it.

18:42 ivan: typo https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp/blob/master/src/bbloom/fipp/printer.clj#L97

18:42 ibdknox: bbloom: yeah they did: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/clojure/core/reducers.cljs :)

18:43 bbloom: ivan: fixed

18:44 tomoj: is it unsafe to (init-proxy (get-proxy-class bases) mappings) ?

18:44 since this skips some stuff that proxy does

18:44 bbloom: ibdknox: nice. and it looks like wagjo ported finger-tree

18:44 tomoj: like e.g. "remember the class to prevent it from disappearing before use"..

18:45 bbloom: ibdknox: the algorithm needed a double-list (2-3 finger tree) for the pruning bounded buffer

18:45 tbaldrid_: bbloom: cool stuff, I re-implemented IRecord's print for my uses, and it works like a charm

18:45 bbloom: awesome!

18:46 i hope to be able to make it more configurable without having to copy paste & edit method definitions

18:46 tomoj: could you maybe restrict the print length and level based on the computed layout?

18:46 bbloom: my plan is to allow namespaced node types, so you could have ::edn/break or something that would be a nest or align based on your preferences

18:47 hiredman: tomoj: there were issues where the class generated by proxy would get gc'ed before it was used

18:47 bbloom: tomoj: print length meaning number of items printed in a collection?

18:47 tomoj: yeah, and level the depth

18:48 it seems like desirable values for *print-length* and *print-level* tend to vary for varying data, but maybe if you can decide when to bail out based on looking at where the stuff would render, you can avoid fiddling with their values

18:49 bbloom: ibdknox: i'm trying to avoid manually porting all my libs to cljs, instead im trying to just isolate the jvm code. i'm working on a big cljs project, but doing 99% of the development on the JVM and just sending data to the client to do rendering. my only fear is that perf or file size will be a surprise in the browser, but other than that, it's been really pleasant to have this tiny kernel in the browser and be able to do all my work server side. i

18:49 think i'll be able to even do the opposite, where the browser mirror's it's data back to the server and then broadcasts it back down to other browsers for simultaneous multibrowser testing :-)

18:49 tomoj: yeah, i don't have print-length or print-level yet, unfortunately

18:49 they weren't covered in the literature, although they should be straightforward extensions

18:49 tomoj: well, they kind of suck anyway

18:50 bbloom: i was just so mentally exhausted from parsing all that monad mumbo jumbo :-)

18:50 tomoj: for example, *print-length* 10 might be good for vectors of small ints, but for vectors of huge maps..

18:50 ibdknox: bbloom: sounds like some neat stuff

18:50 tomoj: or for a cycle of length 2

18:50 though, nothing we can do about that unless we define a cycle seq type, I guess

18:51 bbloom: tomoj: again, i decided to punt on those options until i had some time to think about the extensibility and configuration story

18:51 if i can help it, i'd like to avoid a big bag of dynamic vars

18:52 i'd rather have a small map of expansions that get merged in before execution, so that bits and pieces can be customized easily

18:52 tomoj: yeah

18:53 hiredman: so if you don't use proxy, you'll maybe experience those issues?

18:58 bbloom: it's those damn interfaces in clojure core that are driving me nuts! i wish they were protocols

18:58 they make compat really hard, since you have to extend interfaces at deftype time

19:04 they also make the extend function practically useless, and that's a real shame, b/c extend is awesome

19:07 hiredman: I think hugod was working on a macro that would take an interface and use it as a the basic of protocol (instead of generating one)

19:08 which would not completely solve that, but would be a place to start in "protocolizing" a lot of core

19:14 ivan: huh what

19:14 user> (require '[bbloom.fipp.edn :refer (pprint) :rename {pprint fipp}])

19:14 IllegalAccessError consl does not exist clojure.core/refer (core.clj:3839)

19:16 no doubt I'm having some major PEBKAC and should go sleep

19:18 yedi: anyone know of any music analysis software/libraries

19:18 ivan: oh, this is what I get for running data.finger-tree master with its lack of consl

19:23 bbloom: ivan: ah

19:23 yeah, that confused me. the released version has consl but it was renamed to conjl

19:23 ivan: is there a reason your on master?

19:23 ivan: no good reason

19:24 bbloom: ivan: heh well then it's not a problem :-)

19:35 a|i: does clojure play well on app engine?

19:37 technomancy: bbloom: are you trying to subtly imply that part of the point of fipp is that it doesn't use cl-format? =)

19:38 also, I have a project called ffip, so I keep reading it as that

19:38 bbloom: technomancy: the real motivation was that i wanted a custom pretty printer for a particular data pattern i had and i had NO FUCKING CLUE how to get pprint-dispatch or cl-format to do what i want

19:39 technomancy: heh, sorry about the name similarity :-)

19:39 also, i wanted to pretty print CSS too :-P

19:39 technomancy: it happens =)

19:40 bbloom: and man, it's nice to not have to wait for a pprint of a large structure

19:40 sometimes, i'd pprint something and then 3 seconds later ^c and add a (take 5) :-P

19:40 or a (select-keys ...

19:41 now i get output immediately and my ^c lets me scroll up and see the first few lines

19:45 a|i: which web framework in clojure is the most full featue one?

19:46 this question i out of date: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3325033/comparison-of-clojure-web-frameworks

19:46 bbloom: a|i: i think you'll find that the clojure community considers "full featured" to be a miss feature

19:46 er misfeature*

19:46 a|i: bbloom: why?

19:46 bbloom: why do I have to create my own user system?

19:47 bbloom: a|i: you don't

19:47 here's a popular one: https://github.com/cemerick/friend

19:47 a|i: bbloom: by full feature I meant something with good plugin support.

19:48 bbloom: a|i: the standard Ring stack has strong middleware support

19:49 a|i: bbloom: is noir built on top of ring?

19:49 bbloom: a|i: as far as i know, everything in the clojure web world is built on ring

19:49 a|i: it's like ruby's Rack or python's WSGI

19:50 a|i: bbloom: but that doesn't necessarily mean that I can us friend user system with noir, does it?

19:50 use*

19:51 bbloom: a|i: i'm not the expert on this topic. maybe you should summon Raynes :-)

19:52 ibdknox: ali: you can use friend with noir, but it's not easy. You should look into http://www.luminusweb.net/ as a starting point

19:53 bbloom: ibdknox: i think that's a pipe in his name, which is tricky :-P

19:53 ibdknox: oh

19:53 sneaky

19:53 technomancy: calling friend a "user system" is a bit of a stretch

19:53 ibdknox: a|i: ^

19:53 a|i: ibdknox: got your message though :)

19:54 bbloom: ibdknox: we can't even handle ell, eye, and pipe. allow me to reiterate my complaint about fancy type setting in CS papers!

19:54 a|i: ibdknox: I'm new to clojure, coming from rails. just wondering if there is en equivalent of rails to ruby in clojure.

19:54 ibdknox: a|i: intentionally not

19:54 bbloom: lol

19:55 technomancy: I actually had a really easy time bootstrapping a compojure app on top of GitHub oauth for handling users: https://github.com/technomancy/syme/blob/master/src/syme/web.clj#L75

19:55 a|i: ibdknox: why intentionally? why is that microframeworks are good neough?

19:55 bbloom: a|i: and i don't think that there is an equivalent of rails in *any other language* it's a pretty special framework in terms of breadth, perscriptiveness, popularity, etc

19:55 a|i: honestly, if you need to build a CRUD app in a hurry, rails is very likely the right tool for the job

19:55 a|i: bbloom: sure, but django in python at least tries to be a rails.

19:55 technomancy: doesn't django predate rails public release?

19:55 bbloom: technomancy: i believe it does, heh

19:56 a|i: bbloom: my only choice at the moment is app engine. and I can only use python, jvm or go.

19:56 algernon: I found that composing smaller libraries allowed me to be far more productive, than working within the constraints of a huge framework.

19:57 (but maybe I just didn't 'get' rails)

19:58 bbloom: algernon: for me, it was a matter of expediency. with rails, you don't think about the "right way" for your particular use case. all use cases are CRUD. you just do whatever the most popular thing is at the time and you'll get an MVP out the door quickly. and, if you're lucky, it will be defacto modular enough to decompose it later

19:59 a|i: what are you building?

19:59 need to know your requirements to make a recommendation

19:59 dcjackson: Is there a way to get Leiningen to NOT complain about things like: Could not find artifact postgresql:postgresql:pom:9.2-1002.jdbc4 in central (http://repo1.maven.org/maven2)

19:59 bbloom: app engine seems like an odd *requirement*

19:59 a|i: bbloom: why odd?

20:00 bbloom: why appengine?

20:00 a|i: bbloom: it's an area profile website.

20:00 technomancy: dcjackson: latest version shouldn't do that

20:00 a|i: bbloom: it's cheaper to start off.

20:01 dcjackson: Ok, I will upgrade to that....

20:01 technomancy: a|i: last I checked app engine doesn't allow for threads, so a lot of the interesting stuff about clojure just doesn't work

20:01 but don't listen to me; I work for a competitor =)

20:01 a|i: technomancy: I'm open to comptetitors :0

20:01 :)

20:01 bbloom: he's talking about heroku :-P

20:01 ecmendenhall: technomancy: thanks for sharing that oauth example. That's…surprisingly easy!

20:02 bbloom: technomancy: i'll say it so you don't have to, heh

20:02 a|i: heroku is really nice, I wish it was cheaper for starters.

20:02 callen: technomancy: who do I send happy-grams to at Heroku for fixing my account?

20:03 bbloom: callen: i accept all happy-grams on behalf of all parties

20:03 callen: bbloom: you deserve nuhzink!

20:04 I actually just switched to using Heroku after using manually dev-ops'd VPSs and Dedis for years.

20:04 dcjackson: technomancy: Upgrading to RC1 did in fact stop to warnings. Thanks!

20:06 technomancy: dcjackson: cool

20:06 callen: heh; what happened?

20:06 callen: technomancy: I have an account from back when you guys only did Rails. years ago. Two accounts actually. Both HTTP500'd whenever I'd try to log in.

20:07 technomancy: sometime after Christmas, somebody noticed my failing/desperate attempts to log in and fixed the code.

20:07 technomancy: callen: straight up fixed the code without a support issue opened or anything?

20:07 callen: so I tried Heroku for the first time with a non-rails-app and I'm actually switching my stuff over.

20:07 technomancy: heh; fantastic =D

20:07 callen: technomancy: well both accounts stopped HTTP 500'ing on login. so yeah, I guess.

20:08 technomancy: don't you guys get an email/message whenever your app throws a 500?

20:08 I do...

20:08 no support ticket or anything, although I did try pinging you in IRC.

20:08 technomancy: it was probably related to the remediation for the rails security issue I bet

20:09 callen: technomancy: I have a hard time seeing how a broken legacy account is related to that rails security issue. Do you guys just ignore your dashboard app until something is wrong? :P

20:09 brainproxy: how can I print the value of exec-path inside emacs?

20:10 technomancy: the 500 errors get logged, but we typically don't have support guys looking into them unprompted

20:10 but people might have been paying extra attention to legacy rails apps this past week for security reasons

20:11 hard to say without knowing what was broken

20:34 tuor: Hi. I'm learning clojure, using emacs, leiningen, and nrepl. What's the best way get dependencies I add in project.clj reflected in the repl?

20:35 ChongLi: have you tried nrepl-restart

20:35 ?

20:36 M-x nrepl-restart

20:37 tuor: Thanks. I tried that unsuccessfully yesterday, but now that I think about it, I had another problem in my project.clj that I didn't discover until later.

20:37 I am trying it now.

20:46 It worked after I did "lein deps" in the shell and then nrepl-restart.

20:46 ChongLi: nice

20:46 tuor: Thanks!

20:46 ChongLi: no problem!

21:19 bpr: technomancy: I'm working on porting your swank-clojure inspect command over to nrepl. Any thoughts on what you would change/do differently?

21:23 tomoj: &(map class [(reify) (reify) (reify)])

21:23 lazybot: ⇒ (sandbox8277$eval30037$reify__30038 sandbox8277$eval30037$reify__30040 sandbox8277$eval30037$reify__30042)

21:23 tomoj: &(map class (repeatedly 3 #(reify)))

21:24 lazybot: ⇒ (sandbox8277$eval30053$fn$reify__30055 sandbox8277$eval30053$fn$reify__30055 sandbox8277$eval30053$fn$reify__30055)

21:24 clojurebot: map is *LAZY*

21:24 bbloom: clojurebot needs his bolts tightened

21:24 tomoj: is there a way to get an instance of a _new_ anonymous class for use with extend?

21:25 I'm guessing what I'm trying to do is deeply wrong

21:26 bbloom: hmm maybe? why do you want to do that?

21:27 bpr: can the jvm even do anonymous *classes*?

21:27 tomoj: well, not really anonymous, just anonymous from the clojure perspective

21:28 Deece_: Is there a function that lists the Java interfaces satisfied by an object?

21:28 tomoj: I have 4 protocols, each with one function. if you implement the first two, the implementation of the third can be derived from the first two. otherwise, you are free to pick and choose

21:28 bbloom: tomoj: this worked for me https://www.refheap.com/paste/8481

21:28 tomoj: I don't want to create a deftype for every possible combination

21:28 yeah, that works

21:28 the problem is that if you put the '(reify) inside a function, it seems auto-memoized

21:29 note my example above

21:29 bpr: Deece_: try ancestors

21:29 bbloom: tomoj: i don't think it's memoized, such much as it is generated at macro expansion time

21:29 tomoj: &(let [r #(reify)] (identical? r r))

21:29 lazybot: ⇒ true

21:29 tomoj: oh, I see

21:30 bbloom: horror of horrors: you could (eval '(reify))

21:30 tomoj: hah

21:30 bbloom: but i think you might be better of rethinking your approach :-P

21:30 tomoj: yes.. "deeply wrong" :(

21:31 bpr: Deece_: there's also parents if you only want to see the immediate super-types

21:31 Deece_: bpr: (ancestors []) returns nil. I'm just tring to better understand the way Clojure uses java interfaces under the cover to implement polymorphism; it'd be good if i could use the REPL to see all the interfaces an object implements. For example, that [] is an instance of clojure.lang.IPersistentStack

21:31 tomoj: I have a macro that works fine, but the function version is tricky

21:31 bpr: &(ancestors (type []))

21:31 lazybot: ⇒ #{clojure.lang.ILookup clojure.lang.IMeta clojure.lang.APersistentVector java.util.List clojure.lang.IPersistentStack clojure.lang.IEditableCollection java.lang.Runnable clojure.lang.IHashEq java.lang.Comparable clojure.lang.Sequential clojure.lang.IPersistentCo... https://www.refheap.com/paste/8482

21:31 bbloom: tomoj: the substitutable/derivable implementations thing is an interesting problem, why not just use extend and select-keys ?

21:31 Deece_: bpr: perfect! thanks.

21:32 bpr: np

21:32 tomoj: I'm using extend, but what type do I extend?

21:32 (extend (eval '(reify)) ...) would work, like you said

21:33 bbloom: why do you have dynamically generated types at runtime?

21:33 tomoj: er, well (let [x (eval `(reify))] (extend (class x) ...))

21:33 bbloom: reify isn't dynamically generating a type, it's instantiating one

21:33 reify is statically generating a type.... dynamically at compile time :-P

21:34 tomoj: well I have 4 protocols, so max 16 combinations (each type either implementing or not implementing each protocol)

21:34 originally I was manually writing a deftype for each combination

21:35 bbloom: do you need a reified type? or would a map and multimethods do fine?

21:39 tomoj: I don't even see why I need multimethods

21:39 bbloom: do you need polymorphic dispatch at all?

21:39 tomoj: {:p1 f1 :p2 f2 :p3 f3 :p4 f4} should work fine afaict

21:40 bbloom: i'm trying to rewind/replay your decision to create concrete types

21:40 i don't know anything about your use case

21:41 dnolen: bbloom: btw, looking forward to hanging out at Clojure/West!

21:42 bbloom: dnolen: yeah, should be fun! it's my first conference speaking gig, so i'm extra excited

21:43 TimMc: Deece_: And generally you'll want to use class instead of type -- type also includes :type metadata.

21:43 amalloy: bbloom: this whole idea looks nuts

21:43 er, tomoj

21:44 brainproxy: man, don't know why I waited so long to look into ack-and-a-half, very helpful for refactoring

21:45 amalloy: $google ack-and-a-half

21:45 oh yes, i think Raynes said he broke $google

21:46 tomoj: amalloy: what's the whole idea? using reify+extend?

21:46 working with things which implement (nearly) arbitrary subsets of 4 related protocols?

21:47 amalloy: mostly reify+extend, i think

21:47 tomoj: oh, yeah

21:47 bbloom: tomoj: if you really do have exactly 4 protocols and you don't need open extension, then may i suggest a hash-map or a cond block? :-)

21:48 amalloy & brainproxy: upgrade to the_silver_searcher sooo nice

21:48 tomoj: yeah, porting to hash-maps now

21:48 thanks

21:48 amalloy: no thanks. find+grep for me till the day i die

21:52 brainproxy: bbloom: will look into it

21:52 tpope: I hate ack

21:52 bbloom: why?

21:52 clojurebot: why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone

21:52 tpope: because it's whitelist based

21:53 and you have no clue that it's not searching certain files

21:53 bbloom: tpope: ah, i forgot about that. i fixed that a long time ago, you can add --text to your ackrc

21:53 poof problem solved: anything that `file` would report as text, ack will search

21:56 tpope: well that solves one problem

21:57 bbloom: what else? :-)

21:58 tpope: well basically, 90% of my searches are inside vim, inside a git repo

21:58 and for that, git grep wins

21:58 I don't get any of the benifits of ack there

21:59 brainproxy: bbloom: nice, there's also an ag.el based on ack-and-a-half, trying it out now

21:59 tpope: I just get the burden of maintaining a config file

21:59 bbloom: tpope: i kinda do wish it just searched anything that git tracked

22:00 tpope: git grep does

22:01 bbloom: for some reason i've only ever used that to search back in time

22:01 i forget why tho

22:01 kd4joa: can anyone help me understand why I'm getting this when running "lein midje"? java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate bultitude/core__init.class or bultitude/core.clj

22:01 (it's been a really bad weekend for clojure dev tools)

22:02 TimMc: Is bultitude a midje dependency, or one of yours?

22:02 kd4joa: it's not one of mine

22:02 I've never heard of it

22:03 TimMc: OK, so presumably midje is trying to pull it in.

22:03 kd4joa: it is a midje dependency

22:04 brainproxy: bbloom: ag.el is working nicely, and the_silver_search is super fast, wow!

22:05 bbloom: yeah, craaazzy fast

22:05 even faster, but requires a cron job: http://code.google.com/p/codesearch/issues/list

22:05 use that if you have a huge static code base to reference

22:05 TimMc: kd4joa: Are you using lein 1 or lein 2?

22:05 bbloom: although the indexer is fast enough to be run quasi-ineractively

22:05 bpr: kd4joa: what version of leiningen are you using?

22:06 brainproxy: nah, most of my projects either don't have that many files or have lots of relatively small files

22:06 ag is going to be nice addition the toolbelt, for sure

22:06 kd4joa: Leiningen 2.0.0-RC1

22:08 bbloom: yeah that codesearch thing was made by googlers for googlers :-P

22:09 TimMc: kd4joa: What version of lein-midje are you using

22:11 $latest lein-midje

22:11 lazybot: [lein-midje "3.0-alpha2"] -- https://clojars.org/lein-midje

22:11 kd4joa: lein-midje 2.0.4

22:13 TimMc: "Could not locate clj/core__init.class or clj/core.clj on classpath"

22:13 Interesting...

22:14 Oh, nvm -- that's a problem with my project.

22:18 OK, reproduced.

22:18 alex_baranosky: Have you tried the lein midje plugin with lein 2.x RC1?

22:19 alex_baranosky: It seems to be failing to find bultitude on the classpath.

22:19 alex_baranosky: TimMc: I'm out of the loop re: diem development lately. Brian's done a metric ton of work recently

22:20 TimMc: ok

22:20 but you're on IRC, and he's not!

22:21 alex_baranosky: send a message to the midge google group, maybe?

22:22 TimMc: It's probably a leiningen problem. technomancy, any known issues with lein2 RCs and classpaths for plugins?

22:27 kd4joa: Try going back to lein 2.0.0-preview10 -- seems to work for me.

22:27 pass that to lein upgrade

22:29 kd4joa: thanks. I'll give it a try

22:31 TimMc: that worked. thanks again

22:32 TimMc: kd4joa: You may wish to file a bug on leiningen's issue tracker on github.

22:34 technomancy: bpr: I extracted swank-clojure inspect into its own lib here: https://github.com/technomancy/javert

22:34 TimMc: nothing known yet

22:34 bultitude is included in the standalone self-install jar though

22:34 TimMc: Hmm, interesting.

22:34 technomancy: so it's not even possible for it to not be available to plugins

22:36 it could be midje isn't able to add it to the in-project classpath though

22:37 if it's a bug in leiningen I'll hold off on an announcement

22:37 kd4joa: technomancy: should I file an issue in github?

22:38 bpr: technomancy: cool

22:38 TimMc: I've got some time to help debug, if you want to point me at anything.

22:40 technomancy: given that it's trying to require bultitude and it looks like it's not attempting to put bultitude on the classpath I'd guess it's a bug in lein midje

22:40 but I don't know anything about midje

22:40 TimMc: Hmm... so it may have been accidentally working before. :-)

22:52 bbloom: hmm i wonder if nrepl has anyway to know the terminal width

22:53 sometimes i make my terminal pretty wide and it would be nice if fipp respected that :-)

22:56 TimMc: kd4joa, technomancy: lein-midje is at fault; needs to inject bultitude into the classpath

22:57 kd4joa: TimMc: got it. I'll submit the Github issue there then.

22:57 TimMc: thanks again for the help. I've had a very rough weekend with clojure dev tools.

22:58 TimMc: It looks like lein stopped leaking bultitude into the project classpath sometime recently.

23:04 devn: I want to write a range that does \a..\z

23:04 any ideas?

23:04 bpr: &(map char (range 32 58)) ... i think

23:04 lazybot: ⇒ (\space \! \" \# \$ \% \& \' \( \) \* \+ \, \- \. \/ \0 \1 \2 \3 \4 \5 \6 \7 \8 \9)

23:04 bpr: well, close

23:04 devn: nono

23:04 im talking about a library

23:04 amalloy: ~google raynes mutt clojure

23:04 clojurebot: First, out of 4 results is:

23:04 #clojure log - Apr 10 2010

23:04 http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2010-04-10.html

23:04 devn: that detects the class of the arguments

23:05 amalloy: well, whatever. you can find it from there

23:05 devn: so something like defmulti maybe?

23:05 amalloy: is that for me>

23:05 ?

23:05 amalloy: indeed

23:05 devn: amalloy: damn you!

23:06 * devn shakes fist

23:06 devn: you beat me to it!

23:06 amalloy: hm?

23:06 clojurebot: benchmarking is https://github.com/hugoduncan/criterium

23:06 devn: https://github.com/amalloy/mutt

23:06 amalloy: well

23:06 devn: i haven't read it yet, but that sounds about right

23:06 amalloy: Raynes wrote it first. his implementation was so awful i forked and fixed it for him, though

23:06 devn: a more dynamic range

23:06 either way, cool, and thank you

23:06 amalloy: it's his project, even if all the code is mine

23:06 you're welcome

23:06 devn: sweet sweet ranges

23:06 <3

23:07 Raynes: amalloy: My code wasn't awful you fucker.

23:07 devn: haha

23:07 bpr: lol

23:08 amalloy: read the diff and say that again

23:08 Raynes: You write it differently and I liked your implementation better. Asshole.

23:08 amalloy: (i haven't read the diff recently but it was proabbly awful)

23:08 devn: I think morphin/mutt is a really great way to show people what you can do in clojure without much work

23:08 does the range in morphin give up chunked-seq?

23:08 Raynes: amalloy: The first implementation I did was hilariously broken if you remember right. You helped me fix that and I considered suicide.

23:08 devn: (in the original implementation)

23:08 Raynes: I don't think either if the impls did chunked seqs.

23:09 devn: why not? it's already written, why not just dispatch to clojure.core/range if you have args that are [Long, Long]

23:09 or Long, Long, Long

23:09 amalloy: i think Raynes was hoping to position it as a replacement for range

23:09 bbloom: didn't know about morphin, was considering making something like that at one point! cool stuff

23:09 Raynes: I haven't looked at that code in a 100 years.

23:09 TimMc: I was somewhat annoyed when I discovered that (range \a \z) didn't just work.

23:10 amalloy: because of what TimMc says

23:10 devn: same

23:10 bbloom: Raynes: not exactly a good day to joke about suicide

23:10 TimMc: ,(range \a \z \u0001)

23:10 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>

23:10 TimMc: bbloom: Oh, something in the news?

23:10 bbloom: TimMc: http://news.ycombinator.com/

23:10 TimMc: I mean, suicide is always a touchy subject to joke about...

23:10 devn: i dont think an enhancement to clojure that allows for \u0001 \u0004 or something would be a big deal

23:10 Raynes: TimMc, amalloy, devn: We wrote morphin/mutt as a proof of concept and I put a page on Jira that Stuart Halloway told me to put up but nobody cares remotely about ranges apparently.

23:10 devn: i think it would be accepted

23:10 Raynes: bbloom: Uh, okay.

23:11 devn: Raynes: fuck that.

23:11 Raynes: bbloom: I'll go tell the internet to be careful what they say for the next couple of weeks.

23:11 devn: i care about ranges. ranges are used all over god's creation in clojure

23:11 amalloy: "oh of course X would be accepted to clojure/core" - false for all X

23:11 Raynes: Seriously, I have no sensibilities. I apologize for it.

23:11 TimMc: bbloom: Apparently I live under a rock.

23:11 hiredman: amalloy: :)

23:11 Raynes: devn: Feel free to bring it up again on clojure-dev. Maybe somebody will care.

23:12 devn: amalloy: hiredman: maybe we just need to put some money in a pot and hire lobbyists?

23:12 Raynes: I'd still like to see polymorphic ranges.

23:12 In clojure itself.

23:12 Not necessarily our implementations, but still.

23:12 bbloom: Raynes: i'd vote for that

23:12 i've wanted char ranges a few times

23:12 Raynes: I mean, morphin is great and all, but nobody is going to use a lib for that stuff.

23:12 Nor should they have to.

23:14 devn: My email to clojure-dev is going to be:

23:14 Subject: Polymorphic Range

23:14 Body: Well, why not?

23:14 hiredman: *crickets*

23:14 devn: im not looking for a laugh, just feedback

23:15 do i need to spell this out?

23:15 bbloom: devn: why not: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ericgu/archive/2004/01/12/57985.aspx

23:15 every feature starts with minus 100 points

23:15 devn: the quickest way to lose your argument is to oversell your point

23:15 bbloom: i'd say character ranges are only like plus 30 points :-)

23:16 devn: i don't think i need to create a new wiki or something nutty to sell it. character ranges would be nice. why not?

23:17 bbloom: despite the minus 100 points, it does seem rather harmless :-P heh

23:17 hiredman: I think bbloom's idea of features starting in the negative is a pretty good explanation of why "why not" doesn't work

23:17 devn: nothing gets a score unless people discuss it. "why not?" seems like a good starting point for a conversation

23:18 Raynes: devn: I have a whole page on confluence about polymorphic ranges. Feel free to also spruce it up if you like, it was written ages ago and, get this, IIRC I'm the only person who has ever actually looked at it despite the fact that Stuart told me that is what I should do to get polymorphic ranges considered for Clojure. ;)

23:18 * devn pukes blood

23:18 bbloom: hiredman: i take no credit for that idea, that was beaten into my head at microsoft because i spent so much time beating it into other people's heads to avoid perpetuating the bloated software thing

23:18 devn: wtf

23:18 bbloom: Raynes: yeah, i feel like design pages are where good ideas go to die

23:19 i think implementations and traction are the only things that get respect outside of a rich hickey decree

23:19 devn: if only polymorphic ranges were useful to datomic...

23:20 meh, i don't think it needs to be a core thing

23:20 i think a library is just fine

23:20 bbloom: can anyone think of any other types of ranges besides numbers and characters?

23:20 hiredman: bbloom: if it has a impl and traction there is generally not a lot of effort to get it in to core

23:20 Raynes: devn, bbloom: I did an implementation of character ranges first and submitted it, but it got turned down because it wasn't as long as the range function's definition and wasn't polymorphic, which is why mutt/morphin exists.

23:20 devn: but it still gets me going every time i hear someone say they've made a design page for something and received absolutely 0 feedback

23:20 i like it as a library tbqh

23:20 that's why i asked

23:20 i was going to write...a library! :)

23:21 Raynes: Yeah, I don't think a single person has ever used this library ever.

23:21 hiredman: *shrug* there is no interest in the design

23:21 devn: hiredman: what do you mena?

23:21 bbloom: would be nice if we had a wikipage for libraries that exist as better versions of stuff from code

23:21 devn: mean*

23:21 bbloom: core*

23:21 Raynes: He means nobody cares about my stuff. ;)

23:22 bbloom: hell, i have 3 projects alone that would go on that wiki

23:22 hiredman: devn: if there is no interest in the design you get 0 comments

23:22 the feature expression wiki page has a large trail of comments

23:22 bbloom: hiredman: & devn: sometimes you need to advertise your design page tho

23:22 clojurebot: hiredman is slightly retarded

23:22 Raynes: lol

23:22 bbloom: ok seriously clojurebot? wtf lol

23:22 devn: bbloom: that's true

23:23 bbloom: i made a few wiki pages that had zero comments until i directed attention to them

23:23 devn: bbloom: people who get angry about not getting feedback are the same dudes who post once on clojure-dev and never remind anyone

23:23 bbloom: but i tried pretty hard to avoid being too bothersome about them

23:23 devn: yeah, well, be bothersome

23:23 bbloom: also, it can be hard to ask for feedback intelligently

23:24 you need to have an understanding of the problem, the solution, the political ecosystem, and the psychology of it all

23:24 devn: meh... i think the only problem im hearing is that everyone is too sheepish to request feedback with anything louder than a whisper

23:24 bbloom: then you need to be able to articulate all that well :-)

23:24 devn: which sounds like *our* problem, and not rich or stu or some other scapegoat

23:24 bbloom: devn: the issue with encouraging people to speak up is that a lot of people genuinely have NO FUCKING IDEA what they are doing as designers

23:25 i still want to know: what other types would you extend the Rangable protocol to?

23:25 technomancy: what if someone just made a nice pomegratate wrapper that made it really easy to add a lib with no restarts or nonsense

23:25 just route around the damage

23:25 devn: bbloom: keywords! lol

23:25 Raynes: I never advertised it because I don't want to explain why we should have polymorphic version ranges.

23:25 technomancy: I guess you would need ns+ to really make it "like being in core"

23:26 Raynes: If I have to explain why it's a good thing, it isn't worth it.

23:26 I figured it was fairly obvious.

23:26 technomancy: but ns+ is great and we should have it anyway

23:26 Raynes: But I don't care enough to explain it if it isn't.

23:26 bbloom: devn: i realize that you're joking, but for anyone else listening: that's a terrible idea :-P keywords are interned

23:26 devn: :)

23:27 xeqi: technomancy: ns+ ?

23:27 technomancy: xeqi: https://code.google.com/p/clj-nstools/

23:28 (ns my.ns (:like base.ns))

23:28 bbloom: i think that only having 2 use cases is insufficient to design the Rangeable protocol

23:28 technomancy: xeqi: comes close to democratizing namespaces in terms of allowing other namespaces to be "core-like"

23:28 in that their stuff is easy to make available everywhere

23:28 I've been a long-time fan

23:29 devn: technomancy: what is the purpose of democratizing namespaces?

23:29 bbloom: especially because after? probably should be part of some kind of partial-order protocol :-)

23:30 technomancy: devn: so we don't have to have this conversation every time someone wants to make useful functionality conveniently accessible?

23:30 Raynes: bbloom: I agree, which is why I didn't bother doing polymorphic ranges with my first patch.

23:30 devn: technomancy: the means to conveniently accessible are still a problem

23:30 technomancy: there are two advantages to getting something in core. 0) you don't have to add a lib, and 1) you don't have to add an explicit require

23:30 Raynes: bbloom: Stuart said it should be polymorphic but nobody has yet to tell me of something else that is rangeable.

23:31 technomancy: devn: a repl-ready pomegranate wrapper would address 0) and ns+ addresses 1)

23:32 right? because when you're considering a library, it has to add N points of value in order to get you to put up with the hassle of pulling in something new

23:32 devn: technomancy: so what is the impediment?

23:32 technomancy: so if you reduce N then you reduce the penalty for adding more libs and make it less important to get things into core

23:33 devn: personally, the things that make me hesitant are having to restart the repl and having to add :require everywhere

23:33 maybe with other people it's different

23:33 that's backwards: when you reduce the penalty for adding libs you reduce N but whatever

23:34 devn: technomancy: there is a different solution though, no?

23:34 bbloom: Raynes: devn: entertainingly:

23:34 Prelude Data.Ix> range ((), ())

23:34 [()]

23:34 Prelude Data.Ix> range (True, False)

23:34 []

23:34 Prelude Data.Ix> range (False, True)

23:34 technomancy: anyway, try to think about the reason you want to get it into core; maybe there are other ways to achieve the same goal

23:34 bbloom: [False,True]

23:34 technomancy: ways that don't involve jira

23:34 devn: my friend who hasn't been programming all that long mentioned something earlier that stuck with me

23:34 bbloom: apparently haskell considers booleans to be instances of Ix, which is basically rangable and apparently false == 0

23:34 devn: i think about the clojure web programming situation right now

23:35 and he mentioned how rails forces you into a box, but by "box" he meant, you have *some kind* of consistency

23:35 like "application.rb", or whatever

23:35 you know where it lives because you've seen 100 projects just like it

23:35 bbloom: technomancy: anytime you can bipass jira, you win

23:36 Raynes: Jira had to be the stupidest thing clojure/core ever did.

23:36 bbloom: i wonder if that's rich's true motivation: it's like an automatic minus 100 to suggest a feature... you need to use jira!

23:36 technomancy: bbloom: the math adds up

23:36 devn: i think the problem we have in clojure has nothing to do with democratizing namepsaces, and everything to do with how shitty clojars is, and how desperate we all are for some kind of rational way to share groups of dependecies

23:36 if we truly value this "libraries over frameworks" thing, then we still need to find consistency

23:36 Raynes: https://github.com/yogthos/luminus

23:37 devn: so when you go to src/luminus/*

23:37 Raynes: yogthos|away: Thank you so very much for using a different design for the website. I was twitching at the old one.

23:38 devn: which file do you expect to contain routes?

23:38 Raynes: *shrug*

23:38 technomancy: Raynes: inc

23:38 devn: that's a serious problem we have

23:38 Raynes: I don't think you and I have the same kinds of problems, devn.

23:38 :P

23:38 technomancy: devn: it should be in :main

23:38 seriously; I have never considered that a problem

23:38 Raynes: I put routes in views/

23:38 devn: here's my main point

23:38 Raynes: And models in /models

23:38 devn: hear me out here

23:38 Raynes: Er, models/

23:38 And startup stuff in server.clj

23:39 I'm consistent.

23:39 technomancy: just start in :main and M-. your way through the project

23:39 navigation is easy

23:39 xeqi: wheres the messaging queue go?

23:39 Raynes: Nowhere.

23:39 technomancy: xeqi: nowhere in rails too =

23:39 =)

23:40 yogthos: Raynes: haha yeah it was pretty fugly :P

23:40 devn: listen: you can talk about how easy it is for you, but if you want clojure to grow, i think we need to figure out some kind of common structure. we can say "libraries over frameworks" but ultimately, someone who isn't you is going to have to pick up your shitty legacy code and go to work.

23:40 and if they have no fucking clue how you organized the project, that's a problem.

23:41 i consult, and every project is different, but they're *similar"

23:41 in clojure, nothing is the same

23:41 it's annoying

23:41 and it costs money

23:41 yogthos: Raynes: all credit goes to this guy :) http://www.laliluna.de/

23:41 bbloom: i don't buy this idea that everything is the same even among rails projects, lol

23:41 Foxboron: devn: i believe there is a little github project to try get a common style guide for CLojure

23:41 devn: bbloom: it's not the *same*

23:41 headshot: devn, any scala?

23:42 devn: but it's way closer to similar than compojure and lib-noir

23:42 way way way closer

23:42 Raynes: devn: Careful, you're starting to sound like antares. :p

23:42 devn: headshot: no

23:43 Raynes: Wait, no, you already sound like him, implying that we have shitty code.

23:43 :p

23:43 devn: seriously though. think about it. i don't care if we say "fuck frameworks" but there are trade offs, and i think consistency is definitely one of them

23:43 Raynes: I would expect that if my code were too bad amalloy would have sent me a pull request by now.

23:43 devn: it matters for businesses who want to use clojure

23:43 and we should pay more attention to it

23:43 yogthos: devn: the convention I'm going with for routes is to put routes under routes.blah namespaces

23:43 Raynes: He is really my net at the bottom of the trapeze.

23:44 yogthos: devn: then handler will reference them in all-routes

23:44 devn: yogthos: yeah, it's just that there appears to be no common convention for that in clojure

23:44 which i think is a real problem

23:44 everyone uses compojure and lib-noir and yadda yadda, and congratulations, we don't use a framework

23:44 but we have common depencies

23:44 yogthos: devn: well if one template/framework gets popular it will become the convention I think

23:45 devn: so let's try and come up with *something* that we all agree is sane

23:45 and use that for organizing our web projects

23:45 yogthos: callen convinced me to go with the routes/views separation

23:45 Raynes: This conversation has more snark than technomancy at a Scala party.

23:45 devn: heh

23:45 yogthos: where views have stuff like layouts, and routes contain routes for specific workflows

23:46 haha

23:46 devn: yogthos: so like...let's get people to buy into some kind of general guidelines for project organization

23:46 because ive touched a few clojure codebases lately that were not my own

23:46 people moved on, etc.

23:46 yogthos: a lot of motivation for luminus is to make something that's more or less standard and gets all the boilerplate out of the way

23:46 devn: and in every case, these guys had these wildly imaginative ideas about how to organize projects

23:47 that is a *problem*

23:47 yogthos: haha

23:47 devn: i dont want to spend 3 days figuring out how the hell a project is structured while im trying to deliver value

23:47 yogthos: my main concern with project organization is that stuff should be compartmentalized

23:47 devn: that's a waste of my time, and my client's time

23:48 yogthos: I find that's generally a problem I run into with java projects :)

23:48 diving into twisted mazes of classes and interfaces all alike

23:50 but yeah back to the original point, I don't there's any way to get everybody to just agree on one standard easily

23:50 it's just going to have happen naturally as people gravitate towards some conventions

23:56 bbloom: devn: luckily, clojure namespaces are DAGs, not full graphs

23:56 much easier to traverse when analyzing code

23:56 bpr: technomancy: javert is nearly exactly what i did. lol

23:58 yogthos: bbloom: it's going to be nice when LT gets support for loading up related functions :)

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