#clojure log - Dec 01 2012

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1:09 Sgeo__: Is there a way for me to make my own Var$Unbound?

1:09 better yet, unbound var with no particular name

1:14 Raynes: Sgeo__: Why?

1:19 Sgeo__: (defn who-cares [] (let [s (gensym)] (intern *ns* s) @(resolve s))) Could do something like this. You said with no particular name, but does it matter if it's a random gensym?

1:20 You'd have to create a Var with no name to create an Unbound with no name. Not sure if that is possible.

1:20 Wuh, I guess you can.

1:21 Sgeo__: (clojure.lang.Var$Unbound. (clojure.lang.Var/create))

1:21 This seems to work.

1:22 Sgeo__: Neat

1:22 Raynes: Now tell me why damn it.

1:22 I can't bear the suspense.

1:22 Sgeo__: Oh, as for the why: It seems like it might be a good way to represent a lazy value that has not been calculated yet

1:22 Or at least, semantically I feel like it makes some sort of sense

1:22 Raynes: Isn't that a promise?

1:23 Sgeo__: How does letfn work?

1:23 Probably does make more sense to do a promise, I guess

1:24 But then you have to @ the promise, unlike with the var, where... uh, I guess you do need to deref that too unless it's storing a fn

1:36 jondavidjohn: Anyone willing to help review a clojure novice's code? .... http://codereview.stackexchange.com/q/19203/2776

1:44 tomoj: I wonder why clj-http won't parse json bodies of responses with 'exceptional' status

1:52 muhoo: i'd use cheshire for the json parsing

3:46 philr_: Hello friends. I have a newbie question: why don't my for loops work in core.clj?

3:49 andrewmcveigh: philr_: If you post your code that's not working (and the error if there is one) to a pastebin like refheap, we might be able to help better.

3:49 philr_: Sure. I have a minimal example.

3:49 Let me do that for you...

3:51 So I made a new project with "lein new app test". Then added this to the skeleton:

3:51 https://www.refheap.com/paste/7186

3:52 Now "lein run" prints "Hello, World!" and nothing else.

3:53 andrewmcveigh: OK, so... for is lazy, and as "println" doesn't return a value, and you're not using that (nil) value, (println x) is not being called.

3:53 philr_: Aha!

3:54 So... doseq?

3:54 andrewmcveigh: either use doseq in place of for (for "side-effecting" code)

3:54 or, if for was to return a value, you can wrap it in doall to force the evaluation.

3:55 philr_: doseq it is. Boy is my face red. Thanks muchly!

3:55 andrewmcveigh: no probs.

4:52 Raynes: I haven't seen your code, but that's what I'm thinking based on your description.

4:53 ucb: ah, the top level invocation is like (-> client (fn1) (fn2) ...)

5:04 Raynes: Yes, you could change it to (when client (-> client (fn1) (fn2)))

5:04 But

5:04 ucb: sure, but fn1 might close the connection and so fn2 gets nothing to work with

5:04 Raynes: If one computation relies on the result of the last one possibly being ni… Yes. Okay.

5:04 You want -?> then.

5:04 ucb: yeah :)

5:05 great, thanks! \o/

5:06 bbloom: seems odd that a failed operation on a client causes nil to be returned rather than an error code or an exception or something

5:07 ucb: oh, not my choice, when the other party doesn't like a particular packet you send it it'll just close the connection

5:07 I could alternatively throw an exception in that case

5:07 philr_: Raynes: Yep. "lein new app test".

5:08 bbloom: ucb: what is "client" ? is that a type you've created?

5:08 ucb: well, I lie, it won't just close the connection, it'll let you know it didn't like your last message and close the connection

5:08 bbloom: it's the tcp-client in the aleph library

5:09 bbloom: ucb: tcp?

5:09 ucb: or what protocol?

5:10 ucb: bbloom: tcp, yes

5:10 Raynes: bbloom: I think I'd prefer nil over an exception.

5:10 bbloom: Raynes: I'd prefer a status code :-P

5:11 ucb: I personally prefer nil too

5:11 Raynes: bbloom: Don't know what his purpose is, etc.

5:11 He may not need a status code.

5:11 bbloom: yeah, fair enough

5:12 ucb: well, right now I'm working on the handshake, and its outcome is binary

5:12 I'm happy getting a nil at the end if it failed

5:12 otherwise, I get the client to start sending data

5:25 abp: Hm, can I, when getting passed forms in a macro, find unresolvable symbols in the forms? lexical bindings like let must be considered.

5:39 borkdude: any general advice in here whether to upgrade to 10.8 OSX? what would I gain from it (except for incompatibility problemsn)?

5:42 ucb: borkdude: you'd upgrade your wallet to a lighter one too

5:45 Apage43: you know, I did do the upgrade, and I can't think of anything it added that's really all that useful

5:48 Raynes: New notifications stuff.

5:48 Apage43: right. but most of the apps I wanted notifications from worked fine with growl

5:49 Raynes: It's still a significant improvement.

5:49 Apage43: *shrug*

5:49 I did get iTunes 11

5:49 Raynes: Grown exists *because* this didn't exist.

5:50 clj_newb_2345: how do i dfine a *.clj file that is _auto included_ into every namespace? I want to have my own defn macro (which calls the clojure.core/defn) to be the default defn in all of my code

5:50 Apage43: I found that to be quite an improvement

5:51 Raynes: You can't.

5:52 clj_newb_2345: I can't?

5:52 or someone else can't?

5:53 Raynes: You, sir, cannot.

5:53 clj_newb_2345: can clojure.core ahckers do this?

5:55 Raynes: I don't think anybody can do this.

5:56 clj_newb_2345: what if we got Gosling and Hickey working on it together; between rewriting Clojure and the JVM, would this be possible?

5:56 Apage43: it's not a language issue, I mean, it's just not a featue that's there

5:57 clj_newb_2345: what if Trovalds also joined the team so we could make changes ot the Linux kernel to support this

5:57 Apage43: namespaces pull in clojure.core by default and don't really provide a way to change or modify that

5:57 clj_newb_2345: and Grove joined too, so we couuld modify x86 instructions

5:57 hmmm

5:57 so basically, this wouuuld mean hacking "require"

5:57 Apage43: (ns)

5:57 rather

5:57 clj_newb_2345: hmm

5:57 Raynes: Wow. Apple Reminders is amazingly sufficient.

5:58 clj_newb_2345: this is interesting, so I can just repalce the top of all files with

5:58 (my-ns ........ )

5:58 Apage43: well no

5:58 clj_newb_2345: problem is, how do I get clojure to find (my-ns ... ) ?

5:58 Apage43: because (my-ns) won't be available

5:58 clj_newb_2345: since I need to define the function somewhere

5:58 fuck

5:58 Apage43: as its not in clojure.core

5:58 clj_newb_2345: what if I added my-ns into clojure.core?

5:58 then I'd be set

5:59 I feel like this is similar to modifying the physics of the universe in order to make a red shirt look blue

5:59 Apage43: sure, but you'd have to make sure that happens before anything tries to load the files that use it

5:59 clj_newb_2345: hmm

5:59 can I get lein to define my-ns for me?

5:59 Apage43: i imagine that could be problematic in general, especially so if you use AOT

6:00 unless you're using AOT this is all mostly done at "run time"

6:00 clj_newb_2345: I do have one gen-class

6:00 for a custom exception class I wrote

6:00 everything else is not AOT

6:00 Apage43: anyway

6:01 this is all very ugly and there's probably a … slightly.. less terrible way to accomplish the same thing

6:01 clj_newb_2345: alright

6:01 I could spare an extra :use line

6:01 at the start of every *.clj file

6:01 Apage43: I feel like there might be some http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=542341 going on

6:02 clj_newb_2345: i want to redefine defn

6:02 Apage43: why?

6:02 clojurebot: why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone

6:02 clj_newb_2345: I want something like type hints, except it'sll be "type comment"

6:02 i.e., it's not a thype hint, but it's just a short comment describiing the incoming type

6:03 so I'd like something like (defn foo [ \n a "this is a House object" \n b "this is a Car object" ] ... )

6:03 that's all

6:03 wait wait, meant [\n a "this implements the House protocol" \n b "this impelments the Car protocol" ]

6:03 mpenet: you could just use metadata, no need to redefine things

6:04 clj_newb_2345: use metadata on the arguments of a defn?

6:04 mpenet : can you paste sample code?

6:04 mpenet: on the fn itself

6:04 clj_newb_2345: I really want the comments "inline"

6:05 Apage43: (defn foo [^{:comment "My comment text"} arg1 ^{:comment "More comment text"} arg2])

6:05 actually i think that gets thrown out

6:06 ah, nope

6:06 mpenet: if that's just for information as clj_newb_2345 seems to want, this would be ok

6:07 Apage43: (meta (first (first (:arglists (meta #'foo))))) => {:comment "My comment text"}

6:07 &(meta #'clojure.core/+)

6:07 lazybot: ⇒ {:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name +, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 920, :arglists ([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]), :added "1.2", :inline-arities #<core$_GT_1_QMARK_ clojure.core$_GT_1_QMARK_@166f453>, :inline #<core$nary_inline$fn__3842 clojure.core$nary_... failed to paste: peer not authenticated

6:07 Apage43: the arg metadata you attach is on the symbols in :arglists there

6:08 in fact, a type hint is just a metadata of the form {:tag theclass}

6:08 clj_newb_2345: (defmacro my-defn [fname args & body] `(defn ~fname ~(apply vector (map first (partition 2 args))) ~@body))

6:08 that is all I need

6:08 I don't use the multiple definition opption of defn

6:08 mpenet: Apage43: yes, type hints are under :tag

6:09 Apage43: clj_newb_2345: wait, you don't even want to keep the strings? You're just throwing them out?

6:10 clj_newb_2345: I don't wnat to keep this

6:10 it's purely to make it easier for me to read

6:10 I apologize if that was not clear.

6:10 thanks to evere who helped talk me out of modifying clojure.core, I like this solution more :-)

6:10 Apage43: (defn foo [a #_"This will be ignored" b #_"so will this"] (+ a b))

6:10 (foo 1 1) => 2

6:11 clj_newb_2345: lol

6:11 Apage43: Prefixing a thing with #_ causes it to be ignored

6:11 clj_newb_2345: reader macros

6:11 I'm an idiot

6:11 hmm

6:11 this is even better ,no need to define a new macro

6:11 Sgeo__: ,Float/NaN

6:11 clojurebot: NaN

6:13 Apage43: or just take the line break and use regular comments

6:13 instead of almost hacking up everything =P

6:13 clj_newb_2345: man; this is brilliant

6:15 Apage43: This is the first time I've run into a place to use #_ though

6:16 clj_newb_2345: I like the ; more

6:16 now my edditor even clorizes the type

6:16 and I can do weird thigns like ; Hash<String, Hash<String, Animal>>

6:16 Apage43: right. this is almost certainly what you want

6:18 clj_newb_2345: this is fucking brilliant

6:18 my code looks a little weird, since many functions are now 2-3x as long (due to the args eacn on it's own line)

6:18 but I like it

6:42 ucb: are java integers 32 bits? (apologies if this is a stupid question)

6:42 more precisely, I'm wondering if rand-int Integer/MAX_VALUE will generate a 32-bit value

6:44 seems to be the case

6:46 Guest29562: @ucb The Java Specification says that it is: "The integral types are byte, short, int, and long, whose values are 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit and 64-bit signed two's-complement integers, respectively"

6:46 ucb: Guest29562: thanks!

6:54 borkdude: what is the clojure analogue of for example liftP in Haskell?

7:17 hmm, is this really much of an improvement…? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7187

7:18 josteink: how do I do a case-insensitive substring search in clojure?

7:18 something akin to

7:18 (def windows (contains? os-name "windows")

7:19 * josteink has googled hard and only found references to regexes. and some notes about ?i notation, which for all he can see only generates compiler erros

7:22 andrewmcveigh: &(re-seq #"(?i)windows" "WinDOws blah blah ...")

7:22 lazybot: ⇒ ("WinDOws")

7:24 borkdude: josteink what about smth like this? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7188

7:24 josteink: andrewmcveigh & borkdude: thanks both :)

7:25 borkdude: josteink you could do some preprocessing on the pattern to lowercase that as well

7:25 andrewmcveigh solution is even better, always forget about re-seq

7:26 andrewmcveigh: re-seq is awesome :)

7:27 borkdude: yeah

7:27 rbarraud: Lambda is awesome; everything else is just derivative :-)

7:29 borkdude: there should be a +1 button on clojuredocs so you can look at the most popular functions ;)

7:30 regex driven development

7:30 josteink: borkdude: that just feels dirty :)

7:30 borkdude: hehe

7:33 re-seq and juxt… never forget about those

7:38 (was note to self)

8:55 Raynes hm, it only occured to me now, is your Twitter name inspired by the IO Monad?

9:50 tomoj: browser repl broken in r1535?

11:40 clojure-newb: hey guys… I'm doing : (map #(hash-map :key1 (first %) :key2 (nth % 1) :key3 (last %))) to build a hash-map out of a vector, which is fairly concise, but I don't like the nth, first and last, can I use destructuring in this form or do it another way ?

11:43 borkdude: (let [[a b c] v] #{:k1 a :k2 b :k3 c})

11:45 jeremyheiler: &(apply hash-map [:a 1 :b 2 :c 3])

11:45 would that work for you?

11:47 hmm no. sorry. your keys are not in yoru vector

11:48 perhaps use zipmap

11:48 ,(zipmap [:key1 :key2 :key3] [1 2 3])

11:48 clojurebot: {:key3 3, :key2 2, :key1 1}

11:49 borkdude: ,(apply hash-map (interleave [:a :b :c] v))

11:49 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: v in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>

11:49 borkdude: multiple ways to go

11:50 clojure-newb: borkdude: that looks cool

11:50 borkdude: admittedly I like zipmap the best

11:50 ,(doc zipmap)

11:50 clojurebot: "([keys vals]); Returns a map with the keys mapped to the corresponding vals."

11:50 clojure-newb: jeremyheller: thats cool too

11:51 so many ways, I've got loads to learn

11:51 jeremyheiler: clojure-newb, that's what makes it fun

11:52 there's always more to discover

11:52 clojure-newb: jeremyheiler: yeah, though sometimes I spend too long making it perfect instead of working on the real problem :-)

11:52 jeremyheiler: haha, you're not alone there!

12:03 borkdude: jeremyheiler that's the risk of such a cool language.. never done refactoring ;)

12:29 abev: bye

12:29 quit

12:29 exit

12:31 jondavidjohn: any clojure affcianados want to give me a quick code review? I'm just learning and want to make sure I'm leaning into the strengths of the language... http://codereview.stackexchange.com/q/19203/2776

12:33 * gfredericks looks at jondavidjohn's code

12:34 gfredericks: ooh you could destructure decks

12:34 [deck1 deck2] (split-at middleish cards)

12:35 jondavidjohn: nice, so I wouldn't have to do nth

12:35 gfredericks: right

12:35 this thing needs line numbers

12:36 (->> (interleave deck1 deck2) flatten) is a somewhat superfluous use of ->>

12:36 it's not terrible though I can imagine liking it

12:37 indentation on overhand is bad

12:37 jondavidjohn: yeah, I think it reads well

12:37 gfredericks: (the if lines up with the parent let)

12:37 gtrak: do you guys know of a shortcut for ring-mock requests with session-cookies?

12:38 gfredericks: looks like you could stand to make a helper out of (partial partition-by (fn [_] (zero? (rand-int 2))))

12:38 I don't think (vec cards) gets you anything

12:39 oh wait

12:39 I had to scroll to see more code

12:40 jondavidjohn: I know functions use - as a word seperator, should bindings follow the same form?

12:40 gfredericks: yeah good point

12:40 I hadn't noticed that

12:40 underscores are generally just for interop with other systems that use them

12:40 jondavidjohn: ok, cool

12:41 tmciver: jondavidjohn: I think the use of flatten in riffle is redundant.

12:41 interleave produces a seq

12:41 ,(interleave [1 2 3] [4 5 6])

12:41 gfredericks: calling seq in mongean is probably unnecessary as well

12:41 clojurebot: (1 4 2 5 3 ...)

12:42 gfredericks: indentation for the ->> form in pile is bad

12:42 jondavidjohn: tmciver: the decks are chunked with partition-by

12:42 tmciver: jondavidjohn: also, it looks like you don't use card_count in overhand.

12:43 gfredericks: I think most of the recursion can be done with recur to save stack space

12:44 jondavidjohn: I tried but it was throwing an error

12:44 gfredericks: wat.

12:44 jondavidjohn: do I need to reverse the if to use recur?

12:44 gfredericks: no

12:44 what error?

12:44 jondavidjohn: just swap out the calls

12:44 I'll test

12:45 nice, I guess it works fine

12:46 gfredericks: though now that I think about it maybe you'd consider it more natural to use iterate

12:46 rather than building the iteration into the shuffling functions

12:47 if you really like the API you have, you could (defn mongean ([cards] ...actual work...) ([cards times] (nth (iterate mongean cards) times))) I think

12:47 jondavidjohn: ahh, nice since it's built into the lang with iterate, i'll remove the recursion

12:48 gfredericks: recursion doesn't end up being necessary in clojure very often

12:48 loop is a class n00b-trap

12:48 jondavidjohn: (iterate (mongean [..]) 4) seems pretty natural

12:48 gfredericks: oh no that's not quite how iterate works

12:49 iterate returns an infinite lazy seq of [deck (mongean deck) (mongean (mongean deck)) ...]

12:49 so you can use nth to get the result you want

12:49 the second arg to iterate is the original deck

12:49 jondavidjohn: ahh

12:50 * gfredericks stops looking at the code

12:50 jondavidjohn: thanks!

12:51 gfredericks: np

12:51 jondavidjohn: lots of good stuff, still really impressed with how much I could accomplish in such terse (yet understandable) code..

12:53 tmciver: jondavidjohn: just curious, why do you do the (somewhat) complicated calculation of middleish in riffle? I would imagine you'd ideally want to used some kind of guassuan randomization of the middle position.

12:54 jondavidjohn: just my formulation of giving the splitting of the deck a reasonable margin of error based on deck size

12:54 with a minimum of 2

12:54 totally open to a better way

12:54 tmciver: ah, I think I see. You're choosing a random card within 10% of the center of the deck?

12:54 jondavidjohn: right

12:55 tmciver: cool

12:55 jondavidjohn: is there a more idiomatic way?

12:55 gfredericks: does anybody know about future plans for the js/foo and js* forms in cljs? Are they intended to be permanent?

12:56 jondavidjohn: also, I guess it's ok to do a lot of work in my let bindings?

12:56 most of the functions' work are done there

12:56 gfredericks: jondavidjohn: it's worth checking for refactoring opportunities, but not generally terrible

12:57 tmciver: jondavidjohn: yeah, that's typical.

12:57 jondavidjohn: i find it's a side effect of immutibility

12:57 at least that's what drove me in that direction

12:57 gfredericks: jondavidjohn: yeah; I think the main tradeoff is readability; so as long as you're satisfied with that, it's ok

12:58 jondavidjohn: cool, thanks again, both of you! later!

12:59 cg_morton: Hey clojure fans. Where would you recommend to start learning for someone with coding experience but who is new to Lisps?

13:00 gfredericks: 4clojure is easy to get started with

13:00 Foxboron: cg_morton, clojure koans is awsome

13:00 I find them more fun then 4clojure

13:01 but, clojure koans needs leiningen to actually use them, so as gfredericks said, 4clojure is easier :)

13:01 cg_morton: I suspect I will want leiningen eventually

13:02 well anyway, I will check those out. Thanks!

13:19 jondavidjohn: gfredericks: ok... so run that iterate usage by me again? something like ... [cards times] (nth times (iterate (riffle cards) times) ?

13:20 or i mean ... [cards times] (nth times (iterate riffle cards)

13:20 O

13:22 tmciver: jondavidjohn: (nth (iterate riffle cards) times)

13:23 to riffle the initial deck 'times' times.

13:23 gfredericks: crate's defpartial creates some interesting metadata and I'm curious if anybody understands the use case

13:24 jondavidjohn: just like tmciver said; also if you're interested you might enjoy pondering why ((apply comp (repeat times riffle)) cards) is equivalent

13:25 (I think iterate is more readable though)

13:25 jondavidjohn: I'll check it out

13:25 yeah, definitely a clean alternative to my recur

13:27 what if the iterating function has multiple arguments?

13:27 does it break down there?

13:27 gfredericks: yeah can't iterate that way

13:27 jondavidjohn: cool

13:27 gfredericks: you should be able to make it work by partially applying the rest of the args

13:27 like (iterate #(foo % n) cards)

13:37 hcumberdale: Hi ,)

13:40 jeremyheiler: hello, hcumberdale

13:40 muhoo: what are people using to create json services these days? wakeful? bishop? shoreleave? raw ring handlers?

13:41 liberator? there are so many :-/

13:42 * gfredericks wonders also

13:42 muhoo: *sigh*

13:43 * muhoo settles in for a weekend of having to try every single one of them

13:43 gfredericks: wakeful looks crazy-simple, which is what I wanted in this instance

13:44 wait it also looks weird o_O

13:44 hhutch: muhoo: i am working with shoreleave right now, i was using fetch before, i like it

13:45 gfredericks: actually I don't want json at all I want edn

13:46 hhutch: if you are using clojurescript, i recommend shoreleave-remote

13:46 gfredericks: right now I want something that's under 10 lines

13:46 it's just for a demo

13:46 shoreleave looks too serious

13:47 I'll do compojure if nothing else

13:49 hhutch: gfredericks: my implementation is not at all 'serious' .. have you seen this? https://github.com/robert-stuttaford/demo-enfocus-pubsub-remote.git

13:49 that's what i've been using for reference

13:50 gfredericks: hhutch: the src/depr/server.clj has a lot of noise in it for my use; the demo is focusing on the client-side, so I just want to setup the server as basically as possible

13:53 does anybody know if it's possible to override lein-cljsbuild's version of CLJS via an explicit dependency and lein checkouts?

13:53 lein deps :tree doesn't even list cljs :/

13:56 C-Keen: Hi! If anyone of you is visiting 29C3 in Hamburg this year, you may want to drop by at the lisper/schemer assembly. Maybe you want to spread some clojure love too by doing a workshop? Tell me or write it up on https://events.ccc.de/congress/2012/wiki/The_%28un%29employed_schemers_%26_lispers_guild. Thanks!

14:22 muhoo: shoreleave seems to have the weight of popularity behind it. but then so did/does noir, and i realized its limitations quickly enough :-/

14:23 seangrove: muhoo: I'm using shoreleave, but haven't used noir much - what limitations did you come across?

14:24 muhoo: it uses atoms and non-functional stuff to act like django, which was nice coming from that rails-y world, but then not so much.

14:24 also lots of macros which don't compose so well.

14:25 shoreleave looks heavy to me, and i'm suspicious of that now.

14:25 seangrove: Intersting, good to know

14:25 muhoo: maybe i shouldn't be.

14:25 seangrove: I'm only using shoreleave pubsub right now, it's been reasonably nice

14:25 Can't speak to anything else though

14:27 muhoo: i'll try it. i'm thinking maybe before i try to wrap my brain around some big thing, i should try to solve the problem first with low-level tools, and only move up to something heavier once i find myself with a specific need to write something, and instead of reinventing that wheel myself.

14:28 seangrove: That's always a good approach

14:29 muhoo: right now my paid work is having to live inside the brains of the people who wrote android, and it's making me crazy. so that may be coloring my feelings about other things too, and not in a good way.

14:29 seangrove: I tried to get into cljs a year ago or so without having a good understanding of js, which was a big mistake

14:30 Maybe it'll reasonable in the future, but it was important to build several very large apps in javascript before I was able to make the jump to cljs properly

14:30 muhoo: interesting, yes, sounds like the mistake i made of trying to learn clojure without understanding java :-)

14:30 seangrove: Heh, I still don't understand Java very well, but Clojure on that side is pretty robust to shield you from it for awhile

14:31 It'll break down eventually, but I like that you can be productive and explore without a super deep Java background

14:31 muhoo: seangrove: wait until you get to this: http://chasemerick.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/choosingtypeforms2.png?w=640

14:35 seangrove: Well, I'm glad that story is there when needed, but it does look intimidating

14:37 muhoo: the clojurebook.com has a pretty good explanation of all that stuff. but, who knows, you could maybe get by a very long time without ever having to know it.

14:37 mean, i still don't know X86 assembler :-)

14:37 seangrove: So far it's been reasonably easy to avoid interop beyond just insantiating basic classes

14:38 But anyway, far more interested in cljs for the time being

14:38 Thinking about trying to build a cljs around ember.js using the same techniques as jayq

14:38 muhoo: AVR assembler, yes. ARM assembler, yes. but x86 assembler looked so annoying to me i said i'd never learn it, and, so far, never have.

14:39 seangrove: Heh, is that what's holding you back now?

14:39 muhoo: that sounds interesting. i haven't used ember.js, but native cljs wrappers of stuff is A Good Thing.

14:39 seangrove: "Damn, if *only* I had learned x86 assembly!"

14:39 (said few people, ever)

14:40 muhoo: if i were writing windoze viruses, maybe, then x86 assember would be necessary. but i've no interest in that world.

14:41 avr assembler, however, is kind of fun (embedded microcontrollers), though it's been years.

14:48 seangrove: bbloom: You around?

14:49 bbloom: seangrove: what's up?

14:49 seangrove: Wanted to share: http://jida.herokuapp.com/?query-id=50b9aa72e4b0b66235465dae

14:49 bbloom: oh neat, i'll check it out

14:50 seangrove: Made some progress, but the majority of it came from wei_

14:50 bbloom: heh, great, i'm an example :-)

14:51 muhoo: it uses bootstrap.js?

14:51 seangrove: muhoo: Yeah

14:51 Well, not js, just the css, I think

14:52 bbloom: cool stuff

14:56 muhoo: wow dnolen@Davids-MacBook-Pro.local 738 commits!

14:57 i dunno what kind of coffee he's drinking, but puts him far and away the most prolific committer

14:57 jonasen: seangrove: cool

14:57 p_l: muhoo: well... some git workflows create a *lot* of commits

14:57 jonasen: seangrove: http://jida.herokuapp.com/?query-id=50ba5fe7e4b0d89fb0a4ae3f

14:57 p_l: muhoo: when you divide 738 by 20~30 commits a day...

14:57 bbloom: ooo that gives me an idea. lynaghk would doing some github-style graphs for that codeq project be a good test c2po?

14:58 test for c2po, that is

14:58 muhoo: seangrove: very nice work.

15:00 seangrove: jonasen: Oh, good query

15:00 muhoo: Thanks, but wei_ (in here sometimes) did most of the work

15:01 I tink it's ready to share on the mailing list

15:01 bbloom: seangrove: jonasen anyway to do an order by on that?

15:01 jonasen: bbloom: not in datalog

15:02 seangrove: bbloom: but the webapp could support ordering by column.. which would be useful

15:02 bbloom: could be part put up in the query param too :-)

15:03 seangrove: Hmm, wonder if that would be good

15:03 An idea anyway, I'll add it to the wiki

15:04 jonasen: seangrove: what version of datomic are you running?

15:06 seangrove: jonasen: One second, I'll check

15:07 datomic-free-0.8.3599

15:07 jonasen: seangrove: ok. Is it much work to update the peer library?

15:08 seangrove: I don't think so, no

15:08 I'm actually not sure what part that is though, on reflection

15:09 Is that the part that's running in-app, separate from the transactor?

15:14 jonasen: seangrove: in-app

15:14 seangrove: find authors/committers http://jida.herokuapp.com/?query-id=50ba637ae4b0d89fb0a4ae40 http://jida.herokuapp.com/?query-id=50ba63d6e4b0d89fb0a4ae41

15:16 seangrove: jonasen: Very nice!

15:16 Why do you ask about updating the peer library?

15:16 bbloom: anybody working on getting the clojurescript analyzer running so that we can query deeper into the code? :-)

15:17 jonasen: seangrove: a recent version has some new query features I wanted to try

15:18 bbloom: I started once, but didn't get very far.

15:18 bbloom: jonasen: what stopped you?

15:19 jonasen: bbloom: I'm also working on a java analyzer: https://github.com/jonase/codeq/tree/java

15:19 bbloom: macros.

15:20 bbloom: hmm yes, code execution is scary :-P

15:21 jonasen: was the issue analyzing macros in clojure code since the cljs analyzer doens't support them?

15:22 jonasen: bbloom: well, I didn't care too much about that. But getting the analyzer to run at all wasn't as easy as I expected

15:22 bbloom: jonasen: yeah, the public interface isn't exactly publicly documented

15:23 jonasen: bbloom: since codeq works on one source file at a time the cljs analyzer can't find the files it needs

15:24 bbloom: hm, i see

15:26 seangrove: jonasen: Is this the latest library? https://clojars.org/com.datomic/datomic-free

15:26 Happy to swap it out and push

15:28 jonasen: according to https://groups.google.com/d/topic/datomic/lt9xVbZaX3s/discussion 0.8.3661 is the latest

15:32 HolyJak: How is it possible that > can be used as java.util.Comparator? Does clojure somehow convert the boolean result to −1/+1 ? I'd be glad if anybody can point me towards the anser.

15:35 seangrove: Hmm, I'm not seeing the jar for 0.8.3661 in clojars at all though. Updating Datomic on the server...

15:36 HolyJak: Clojure Programming on page 107-108 says that yes, predicates are adapted to behave as Comparators, but doesn't say where/how :-(

15:40 jonasen: seangrove: btw, how are you able to run datomic-free on Heroku. Or will you simply loose all data at any time?

15:40 seangrove: jonasen: Just the app is run on heroku, but datomic is run on a vps, along with the workers for importing git urls

15:40 jonasen: seangrove: ok

15:41 antares_: HolyJak: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/AFunction.java#L46

15:41 HolyJak: thanks a lot!

15:42 I love this channel :-)

15:44 bbloom: antares_: now I'm curious what a sneakyThrow is :-)

15:44 https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Util.java#L183

15:44 nice.

15:44 heh

15:45 ie: turn off this blasted checked exceptions nonsense

15:45 HolyJak: bbloom: thx for providing also a pointer to the answer after having attracted my attention to it :)

15:45 antares_: bbloom: the "least inconvenient" way to throw exceptions without specifying them in method signatures all the time http://www.jayway.com/2010/01/29/sneaky-throw/

15:47 HolyJak: I see

15:59 bbloom: hmmm i have some source of non-determinism in my code… but i'm not sure where….

15:59 i don't use random

15:59 there are no inputs

16:00 no IO

16:00 uses only core clojure data structures

16:00 yet repeated execution yields varied results....

16:01 the only thing i can think of is that it's hashing functions differently from iteration to iteration… would that make sense?

16:01 yeah, i guess it does… hm

16:02 &(hash (fn []))

16:02 ,(hash (fn []))

16:02 clojurebot: 1087093623

16:02 bbloom: ,(hash (fn []))

16:02 clojurebot: 512672660

16:02 bbloom: that makes sense

16:02 shouldn't be affecting my algorithm tho :-P

16:05 gfredericks: ,(hash "foo")

16:05 clojurebot: 101574

16:05 gfredericks: ,(hash "foo")

16:05 clojurebot: 101574

16:05 gfredericks: ,(hash (apply str (range 10000)))

16:05 clojurebot: -1524940506

16:14 gfredericks: empty protocols are an interesting pattern

16:15 apparently only cljs allows it?

16:15 tomoj: 1.5.0-beta1 too, I think

16:15 gfredericks: ah

16:16 in clj-jvm you can extend a protocol to an interface, can't you?

16:16 bbloom: gfredericks: yeah, turns out to be useful as a sort of bit flag. i just used them for functions with metadata in cljs

16:16 gfredericks: what use cases have you run into?

16:17 gfredericks: none, I just saw it in the CLJS code :)

16:17 tomoj: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/2bc8b1f5

16:17 gfredericks: I was initially curious if the use cases mapped to any typical OOP patterns

16:17 bbloom: gfredericks: I've seen empty interfaces before

16:18 gfredericks: but these days that same use case is better handled by an attribute or metadata in java or c#, etc

16:18 gfredericks: I guess because I saw ASeq in the cljs code, the naming pattern of which reminds me of the abstract superclasses in clj-jvm

16:18 bbloom: what's that find-fn syntax in here again?

16:18 gfredericks: $findfn 3 4 7

16:18 bbloom: $find-fn nil 5 '(5)

16:18 $findfn nil 5 '(5)

16:19 no clojurebot? :-/

16:19 gfredericks: it's lazybot

16:19 and he's apparently not here

16:19 bbloom: dammit lazybot, i need you

16:19 get off the couch

16:19 HolyJak: &(+ 1)

16:19 ,(+ 1)

16:19 clojurebot: 1

16:19 bbloom: found https://github.com/Raynes/findfn

16:20 HolyJak: ,(+ 2)

16:20 clojurebot: 2

16:22 ivaraasen: does anyone here know the current state of Incanter? seems pretty stale just by looking at the github repo.

16:23 bbloom: (find-fn tester {:a 1} nil :a 1) ;; assoc

16:23 (find-fn tester '(:a) nil :a) ;; conj

16:23 tomoj: hmm, if I put (load-file "/home/tom/repl.clj") in my :repl-options :init, it works, but if I put the code that is in repl.clj, I get a "ClassNotFoundException: cljs.repl.browser"

16:23 bbloom: (find-fn tester #{:a} nil :a) ;; sorted-set-by

16:23 doesn't seem right :-/

16:23 i need a function which yields a set

16:23 the best i got is:

16:23 &(set/union nil #{:a})

16:24 ,(set/union nil #{:a})

16:24 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: set, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>

16:24 bbloom: ,(clojure.set/union nil #{:a})

16:24 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set>

16:24 bbloom: *shrug*

16:25 tomoj: given what args?

16:25 ,(clojure.set/union [1 2 3] [1 2 3])

16:25 clojurebot: [1 2 3 1 2 ...]

16:26 tomoj: wonder if there's a good reason set and vec aren't identity when possible

16:27 bbloom: i'm doing an update-in

16:27 (update-in some-map [some key path] set/union #{element})

16:28 would be nice to omit the #{} and replace set/union with set-conj or something

16:28 tomoj: where set-conj is #(conj (or #{} %1) %2)?

16:28 er, that's backwards ofc

16:29 bbloom: yeah, basically

16:29 i find myself needing that function frequently

16:30 ollivera: Hi, I am reading a tsv file .. doseq [line (line-seq rdr)] ... how can I extract (access) only the 2nd and 5th field in the line?

16:32 bbloom: break it down: first you need to split the line on tabs

16:33 tomoj: huh, doseq allows initial :let-bindings, for doesn't

16:36 gfredericks: tomoj: boo :(

16:37 ollivera: bbloom, how can I split the line on tabs?

16:37 gfredericks: ,(clojure.string/split "\t" "foo\tbar\tbazzy")

16:37 clojurebot: #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.util.regex.Pattern>

16:37 gfredericks: ,(clojure.string/split #"\t" "foo\tbar\tbazzy")

16:37 clojurebot: #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.util.regex.Pattern>

16:37 * gfredericks does this every time

16:37 gfredericks: ,(clojure.string/split "foo\tbar\tbazzy" #"\t")

16:37 clojurebot: ["foo" "bar" "bazzy"]

16:38 bbloom: gfredericks: heh, i do the same thing

16:38 i make BOTH mistakes every time haha

16:38 sometimes i even try to write /\t/ :-P

16:38 gfredericks: lol

16:38 in the future we will all use eclipse and that will not happen

16:39 ivaraasen: gfredericks: might want to compile the regexp as well

16:39 gfredericks: ivaraasen: does it not get compiled by the clojure compiler?

16:39 ivaraasen: gfredericks: hm, you might be right. or maybe HotSpot does some magic

16:40 gfredericks: ,(type #"\t")

16:40 clojurebot: java.util.regex.Pattern

16:40 gfredericks: if it's a Pattern does that imply it's already compiled?

16:41 ivaraasen: isn't it compiled on the go by the regexp reader macro?

16:41 gfredericks: that's what I assumed

16:41 ,(type (read-stryng "#\"\t\""))

16:41 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: read-stryng in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>

16:41 gfredericks: ,(type (read-string "#\"\t\""))

16:41 clojurebot: java.util.regex.Pattern

16:42 gfredericks: I don't know that it's a reader macro, since that's the most basic syntax for it

16:42 ivaraasen: OK, they're compiled at read time by the reader macro, according to the docs

16:42 gfredericks: w00p

16:43 clojure: always doing the right thing some of the time.

16:43 tomoj: I think they may be compiled again at compile time?

16:44 gfredericks: wat.

16:44 tomoj: but can you even have an 'uncompiled' Pattern?

16:45 gfredericks: my guess is in javaland that's a pattern represented as a string

16:45 tomoj: oh, I see, the emitter for a Pattern emits a string and then a call to compile

16:45 gfredericks: emitter?

16:46 the sexp->bytecode compiler?

16:46 tomoj: the byte code generator

16:46 gfredericks: huh.

16:46 ,(.compile #"\t")

16:46 clojurebot: #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: compile for class java.util.regex.Pattern>

16:46 gfredericks: oh you compile a string to a regexp

16:46 ,(str #"\t")

16:46 clojurebot: "\\t"

16:47 ivaraasen: but yeah, a really simple solution to getting say the 5th line of a TSV file would probably be to use clojure-csv's (parse-csv MyFile :delimiter \\t) and do a nth 5.

16:49 ,(. Pattern compile "\t")

16:49 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: Pattern in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>

16:51 TimMc: &(identical? #"foo" #"foo")

16:51 ,(identical? #"foo" #"foo")

16:51 clojurebot: false

16:52 AWizzArd: /wii cemerik

16:55 xificurC: is there anyone kind enough to link me or explain me how to get lein working on pcbsd?

16:56 after a lein self-install if i try to run for example "lein repl" in xterm i get a line 260: java: command not found

16:58 lynaghk: bbloom: making a codeq + c2po charts HN bait post has been on my agenda for a while = )

16:59 bbloom: lynaghk: nice

16:59 lynaghk: bbloom: I haven't had a ton of time to play with either datomic or codeq, though

17:00 I don't know if you know Carlos Scheidegger at AT&T Labs at all, but he was pretty jazzed about codeq when I told him about the project

17:00 ivaraasen: xificurC: did you install OpenJDK through the AppCafe?

17:00 lynaghk: bbloom: any questions in particular you are thinking about visualizing?

17:01 bbloom: lynaghk: nah, nothing in particular

17:02 xificurC: ivaraasen: nope, thanks a lot :) Sorry for having so dumb questions and problems :(

17:02 lynaghk: bbloom: I don't know if there has been any progress on the Clojure analysis bit of codeq since it was released

17:02 xificurC: too new to this OS

17:02 lynaghk: bbloom: but I think it'd be very interesting to look at relative distributions (via histograms) of things like form depth, # of forms per fn, length of forms, &c.

17:03 bbloom: but when codeq was first released the analysis just looked at toplevel forms only.

17:04 bbloom: lynaghk: not much, just talking about that with somebody above. apparently macros are a pain :-)

17:04 lynaghk: bbloom: even without doing full macroexpansion I think it'd be pretty useful

17:05 bbloom: after all, as a programmer you're looking at the literal forms, not the fully qualified/expanded ones.

17:06 bbloom: lynaghk: yeah, but the analyzer just chokes on defmacro, i'd assume

17:06 lynaghk: also, there was mention of the core strategy of one-file-at-a-time being insufficient

17:06 the analyzer's moduel system is tightly coupled to gclosure right now :-/

17:07 lynaghk: bbloom: ah. Assuming a file is well-formed EDN, couldn't you pretty easily just traverse it and do a lot of counting?

17:08 bbloom: that's what I'd be interested in, as a first pass. Of course, getting all of the actual semantics in there would be great too. Still though, looking at forms is much more interesting than lines.

17:11 bbloom: lynaghk: yeah, i figure lots of other people are interested, so they can push for changes to cljs :-) more interested parties outside of just those doing browser-side work is welcome

17:11 anyway, just published an early version of https://github.com/brandonbloom/qplan

17:11 :-)

17:14 lynaghk: bbloom: do you have your codeq playground on github?L

17:15 bbloom: lynaghk: i don't have a codeq playground :-) seangrove and somebody else does

17:15 jida.herokuapp.com

17:15 muhoo: it's a gist, isn't it?

17:15 seangrove: Yeup, tinkering with it right now

17:16 Should have it back up in a second

17:17 gfredericks: so you can extend a protocol to a java interface but not to another protocol; any guesses about the reasoning there?

17:17 is the interface functionality an unfortunate necessity but normally we want to extend to concrete types?

17:18 seangrove: Was trying to upgrade datomic for jonasen

17:20 andrewmcveigh: I just pulled master on clojure/clojurescript, cljsbuild now throws :No such var: json/pprint, compiling:(cljs/source_map.clj:142)

17:20 Anyone know what that is?

17:22 lynaghk: seangrove: do you know of any JavaScript libraries for making textareas that have paredit? I was thinking about making something similar to your Jida project but refuse to do anything until I get a highlighted, paredit'd textarea for input

17:22 seangrove: lynaghk: Nah, I ran into the same problem, wrote a little helper for determining balanced parens, and then realize how much thought must have gone into paredit

17:23 Re-pushing to Heroku, should be back up in a bit. cljs compilation sometimes takes ~5-7minutes though

17:24 lynaghk: seangrove: I guess you could call in the nuclear option and use Ymacs: http://www.ymacs.org/

17:25 gfredericks: tried ymacs for 3 seconds until C-n opened a new chrome window

17:25 lynaghk: gfredericks: ah, yeah. That and I can't use other people's emacs anyway. It's kind of in the uncanny valley of textareas

17:26 seangrove: And even then, no paredit mode :)

17:26 But I think something like emacs => llvm => emscripten... or something might eventually be a cool project

17:27 lynaghk: seangrove: oh, I hadn't thought about that route. Probably because I want to stay sane

17:27 Raynes: lynaghk: subpar for codemirror

17:27 $google subpar codemirror

17:27 No bot.

17:27 I haven't had to restart him in probably 6 months.

17:27 I literally don't even remember how.

17:28 lynaghk: Raynes: ohh, written in ClojureScript. Hip.

17:28 gfredericks: Raynes: there should be some command you can issue in #clojure that restarts him

17:28 $arise

17:29 Raynes: gfredericks: That's a chicken and the egg problem. If he is dead he can't respond to commands.

17:29 gfredericks: there should be a command you can issue in #clojure for chicken and egg problems

17:29 $hatch

17:29 Raynes: :p

17:30 muhoo: &(hatch)

17:30 lazybot: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: hatch in this context

17:30 gfredericks: and that would be his normal response to that

17:33 Raynes: Is there an official content type for edn?

17:33 gfredericks: I saw application/edn somewhere

17:33 probably had something to do with fogus. That guy.

17:33 Raynes: Yeah, ring-edn uses that.

17:34 gfredericks: woah what does ring-edn do

17:34 Raynes: I have no idea.

17:35 * gfredericks hops aboard the googlecopter

17:35 seangrove: Raynes: Reminds me a bit of Robin Hood/Friar Tuck: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/archive/index.php/t-5628.html

17:36 gfredericks: it is very weird that the ring-edn readme example uses print-str instead of pr-str

17:37 Raynes: fogus is a terrible programmer.

17:37 Nobody gets aware with that.

17:38 * gfredericks gets aware with it

17:38 Raynes: I hate you.

17:38 * gfredericks gets all hated

17:40 * gfredericks (def db (atom []))

17:41 andrewmcveigh: Does metadata on defmulti work in cljs? It seems to compile alright, but it seems to break in the browser by prepending the var name with self__

17:43 seangrove: lynaghk: Ok, all better now: http://jida.herokuapp.com/?query-id=50ba63d6e4b0d89fb0a4ae41

17:44 lynaghk: seangrove: neat. You are running datomic in process?

17:44 seangrove: Nah, it's on a server elsewhere

17:44 lynaghk: seangrove: do you have a pro copy?

17:45 seangrove: Nah, just the free one. Pro would be nice so I didn't have to worry about disk space, etc.

17:45 Sgeo__: Suppose two libraries are combinable in some way

17:45 seangrove: But maybe I'll ask once Jida is of use to the community

17:45 Sgeo__: As in, let's say one exports a protocol, and another exports a type that could be made to fit the protocol

17:45 lynaghk: seangrove: yeah, I have no idea what the storage characteristics are. I'd like to use datomic on S3 for fire-and-forget log all the things.

17:46 Sgeo__: Do I just write my own library that fits them together, and put that up as a separate thing?

17:46 seangrove: Same here

17:46 muhoo: [5~[5~[5~/sb end

17:46 wink: ,(map (fn [x] (str x x)) ["a" "b"])

17:46 clojurebot: ("aa" "bb")

17:46 wink: why is that converted to a list?

17:46 gfredericks: it's a lazy seq

17:46 ,(type (map (fn [x] (str x x)) ["a" "b"]))

17:46 clojurebot: clojure.lang.LazySeq

17:46 seangrove: Datomic-as-a-service would be pretty cool - it wouldn't be a good idea as a professional thing, probably, but as a tool for toy projects on Heroku, would be nice

17:46 gfredericks: seqs get printed as lists

17:46 muhoo: qplan looks interesting, but i find i can't get my brain around what it does

17:46 wink: ok, my bad. why is it not a vector still? :)

17:47 Sgeo__: qplan?

17:47 seangrove: Unfortunately, it seems like the setup of datomic makes it pretty difficult to offer as a service, or just extremely expensive

17:47 gfredericks: wink: map always returns a lazy-seq; there is a mapv if you really need a vector, but likely you don't

17:47 lynaghk: seangrove: are you not on github?

17:47 seangrove: http://github.com/sgrove

17:47 lynaghk: seangrove: how do you mean?

17:47 Sgeo__: wink, because it's convenient for a lot of cases, reducing the amount of work that needs to be done after multiple transforms of the sequence

17:48 Suppose you mapped f onto some sequence, and mapped g onto the result

17:48 seangrove: Jida source is here https://github.com/yayitswei/jida

17:48 lynaghk: seangrove: ugh, usability fail. I github searched you and it shows all of your repos but doesn't say "users:" on the sidebar like it used to.

17:48 gfredericks: Sgeo__: how does it reduce work unless you don't consume everything?

17:48 Sgeo__: The underlying sequence only needs to be walked once

17:48 gfredericks: Sgeo__: there's still the intermediate seq

17:48 wink: Sgeo__: yeah, I understand it probably makes things easier

17:48 I was just a bit dumbfounded now

17:48 seangrove: No problem

17:48 gfredericks: Sgeo__: I expect it's assymptotically the same as mapv

17:49 seangrove: Anyway, I was thinking a public tool like Jida could potentially be very useful for programming communities, and as a way for the Datomic Company to show off the utility, use, etc. of datomic

17:49 lynaghk: seangrove: yeah, totes.

17:49 ivaraasen: I really need to set up a datomic playground.

17:49 Sgeo__: Hmm, I guess only consuming part of it is probably when it would act to reduce work, mostly

17:50 lynaghk: seangrove: are you getting the hash from the query string, or are you normalizing it first

17:50 gfredericks: Sgeo__: my understanding is that reducers are interesting partly because they avoid the intermediate representation

17:50 lynaghk: seangrove: e.g., (-> read-string pr-str md5sum)

17:50 bbloom: andrewmcveigh: sorry, stepped out

17:50 ivaraasen: maybe ask my professors for some petroleum big data and see what cool stuff it's capable of.

17:50 bbloom: andrewmcveigh: not sure what the source_maps thing is about, should ask dnolen

17:50 seangrove: The hash used for the query id?

17:50 lynaghk: seangrove: yeah

17:50 seangrove: It's just a mongo-db id, where the queries are stored

17:51 lynaghk: seangrove: ah, I see.

17:51 bbloom: andrewmcveigh: as for the multi metadata, you mean (defmulti ^:foo f …

17:51 ?

17:51 seangrove: I don't know enough about managing datomic yet, so I wanted to keep all data in there essentially "stateless"

17:51 andrewmcveigh: bbloom: np, I pulled the source-maps branch I thought I was on master.

17:51 seangrove: Or always re-creatable.

17:51 bbloom: andrewmcveigh: whoops :-) ok

17:51 seangrove: Easy enough to import a dozen or more clojure repos, so even if datomic blows up and all data is lost, no big deal

17:51 lynaghk: seangrove: mind if I tweet about this project to a few people? Or will it be going on/offline for a while?

17:51 seangrove: But saved queries are much more valuable, they need to be backed up

17:51 andrewmcveigh: bbloom: yes. (defmulti ^:foo f ...

17:52 seangrove: lynaghk: Nah, we were about to send it out to the list this weekend

17:52 bbloom: andrewmcveigh: there are no vars in cljs

17:52 andrewmcveigh: if you do that in clojure, you need to do (meta #'f)

17:52 andrewmcveigh: (meta f) doesn't work

17:53 andrewmcveigh: bbloom: well, maybe var is not what I meant... the form (defmulti ^:foo ...) compiles to in js seems to be "munged?" to self__.f

17:53 bbloom: andrewmcveigh: give me a moment, i'll check it out

17:53 andrewmcveigh: I'm not actually trying to get at the metadata.

17:54 bbloom: andrewmcveigh: ah, ok so it should be ignored, it's just not… ill look

17:54 andrewmcveigh: would you please file a ticket?

17:54 andrewmcveigh: bbloom: in the jira?

17:54 bbloom: andrewmcveigh: yeah

17:55 andrewmcveigh: bbloom: sure, will do.

17:55 bbloom: andrewmcveigh: well

17:55 make sure you include a test case :-)

17:55 because i don't see an issue here ...

17:55 does it only affect advanced mode you said?

17:56 andrewmcveigh: I've not even checked advanced mode, I've got it on :whitespace.

17:57 bbloom: andrewmcveigh: ok, help me reproduce it

17:57 andrewmcveigh: I'll try on a fresh project. Maybe something's broke here.

18:06 gfredericks: AJAX has a lot of similarities with the IO monad doesn't it

18:06 seangrove: gfredericks: How so?

18:06 gfredericks: I'm thinking mostly of the fact that the runtime forces you to do it async

18:06 moogatronic: Having a strange issue with lein-cljsbuild: Could not locate cljs/analyzer__init.class or cljs/analyzer.clj on classpath

18:07 Using version 0.2.9. If i use 0.2.1 it works… Anyone see this before?

18:07 gfredericks: so therefore, like the IO monad, any composition of functions that involves async at any point must itself be asyncy

18:08 andrewmcveigh: bbloom: hmm, it seems that when the metadata is (defmulti ^:field f ...) that breaks it, whereas (defmulti ^:foo f ...) doesn't. Maybe there's a reason for that?

18:10 seangrove: Ah, got it

18:10 Seems so, yes

18:11 * gfredericks wonders if the ajax monad can accomodate making independent requests in parallel

18:12 bbloom: andrewmcveigh: heh ok… let me see...

18:13 andrewmcveigh: bbloom: this does it for me https://gist.github.com/4185793

18:14 bbloom: heh ok, ticket that & i'll see what i can do… i think i know where the issue is

18:15 andrewmcveigh: bbloom: OK, will do.

18:15 Sgeo__: defprotocol-once?

18:16 ...Why is it needed, what happens if you call defprotocol several times?

18:17 Or deftype or defrecord

18:17 With the same code?

18:20 tomoj: Sgeo__: bad things in some cases https://www.refheap.com/paste/b83f0ae013c7bcf8af2de885a

18:20 bbloom: the issue is that munge looks at some metadata on symbols, so it's a more general problem regarding the :field metadata

18:20 andrewmcveigh: i can probably just namespace the keys....

18:21 Sgeo__: tomoj, oh

18:21 That... kind of sucks really badly

18:21 Reminds me of Python

18:21 bbloom: andrewmcveigh: there is probably a simpler test case too...

18:22 Sgeo__: Seriously, I expect Clojure to play nice with modifying and changing code at runtime

18:22 Maybe I'm expecting it to be too much like CL?

18:22 bbloom: Sgeo__: others expect that too. file a bug

18:23 andrewmcveigh: (def ^:field f identity)

18:23 tomoj: you want it to detect that the sigs are the same?

18:23 and in case they're not, give the current behavior?

18:24 bbloom: andrewmcveigh: i can't dig into it now, but file that ticket and link me to it… either i or dnolen will take a look at it sooner or later

18:24 Sgeo__: Hmm, not sure the exact semantics that I would want

18:24 andrewmcveigh: bbloom: ah, it even does it with def?

18:24 bbloom: Writing it now.

18:25 bbloom: actually (def ^:field f identity) is fine for me.

18:26 bbloom: andrewmcveigh: try to call it

18:26 andrewmcveigh: bbloom: ah, yeah.

18:36 gfredericks: Raynes: jayq contains "application/edn" as well

18:36 also "text/edn" and "application/clojure" and "text/clojure"

18:36 lynaghk: gfredericks, Raynes: we're using application/edn for our services that send edn over the wire.

18:36 gfredericks: so....whatever

18:37 is "application/json" an unfortunate name?

18:41 mpenet: gfredericks: about the async ajax monad, it is possible, it's a different definition from the one in jayq, the 2 can coexist.

18:41 andrewmcveigh: bbloom: I've submitted the ticket, but I can't seem to link it to anyone. CLJS-434

18:42 bbloom: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-434

18:42 gfredericks: mpenet: I just got all excited about this new view of ajax/async

18:42 bbloom: andrewmcveigh: thanks

18:42 gfredericks: mpenet: apparently jquery deferred, which I didn't previously know about, is up this alley?

18:42 mpenet: gfredericks: sometimes you want realized values between steps (allows "natural" transform with Mabye or sometimes is required depending on use case), sometimes you dont care

18:43 it is

18:43 gfredericks: mpenet: yeah, and it occurred to me that you wouldn't want to assume independence even when you can prove it in the code, because statefulness on the server might not allow reordering

18:43 so it definitely ought to be explicit

18:43 mpenet: gfredericks: yup

18:44 gfredericks: it'd be a weird server that didn't allow that, but best to be safe

18:44 mpenet: gfredericks: feel free to scratch this itch, this would be welcomed in jayq with the other one

18:45 tomoj: (let [res1 (req1) res2 (req2)] [@res1 @res2]) vs (let [res1 @(req1) res2 @(req2)] [res1 res2])

18:45 mpenet: gfredericks: it's more about the workflow in your app, ex: POST, need to wait for a response and do GET that depends on the previous post.

18:45 gfredericks: mpenet: once I get my head around it I assume it should be straightforward so I'll be happy to throw up a patch if that turns out to be the case

18:45 mpenet: I guess that wouldn't be so weird

18:45 mpenet: gfredericks: not at all imo

18:45 jamii: If anyone feels like proof-reading some vaguely clojure-related writing, I'd be much obliged :D

18:45 https://gist.github.com/800eaa1876dfaad4b600

18:46 gfredericks: I think if I were doing that I'd think about having the POST return the data itself

18:47 mpenet: gfredericks: yeah, but it's maybe not that specific, maybe my example was bad, but I meant sometimes the order can be important

18:48 gfredericks: it wouldn't surprise me too badly, I just can't think of a common use case with a restful server

18:49 mpenet: if req1 fails, dont do req2, is a good enough justification imo

18:49 well could be

18:49 gfredericks: oh that's a good point

18:50 mpenet: so the 2 versions are potentially useful

18:52 holo: hi

18:54 tomoj: if req2 needs the previous response, you could do (let [res1 @(req1)] @(req2 res1)), or make req2 accept a defer, for @((comp req2 req1)). can't decide if I like the latter

18:55 holo: i want to do something like (= type(var) <some way to represent the class constant>) how do i do the <...> thing?

18:55 gfredericks: ,Integer

18:55 holo: i mean (type var). sorry for my legacy typo

18:55 clojurebot: java.lang.Integer

18:55 tomoj: maybe you define a special comp that handles asynchrony, @((comp@ req2 req1)), and just have req2 take a response

18:55 gfredericks: ,java.util.List

18:55 clojurebot: java.util.List

18:56 gfredericks: holo: just write it ^

18:56 fully qualified, or naked if you imported it

18:56 holo: oh.. i can just write.. hehe

18:56 gfredericks: tomoj: yeah that's basically how jayq already works

18:56 holo: so obvious

18:57 gfredericks, thanks

18:57 gfredericks: ,(= (type {2 4}) clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap)

18:57 clojurebot: true

18:57 gfredericks: holo: you also might like clojure.core/instance?

18:58 holo: gfredericks, yes, i like it :) thanks

18:59 tomoj: gfredericks: (then (req1) req2) ?

18:59 er, done I guess

18:59 mpenet: tomoj: we have a let form that does that

19:00 tomoj: let-ajax, and also let-defered

19:00 there is an example in the jayq readme


19:01 tomoj: ah, if you want points

19:02 that's pretty cool, I hadn't thought of :let/:when for dropping out of the monad

19:04 mpenet: yes I think so too, I haven't used it in my apps though.

19:12 devinus: is there a literal reader syntax for PersistentQueue yet?

19:18 seancorfield: ibdknox: you around?

19:19 I upgraded my Win8 VM from Release Preview to Pro and had to reinstall Java and now LightTable doesn't work again :(

19:20 tomoj: devinus: only in cljs I believe

19:20 devinus: that's disappointing

19:20 tomoj: what is it in cljs?

19:20 tomoj: #queue

19:20 e.g. #queue[1 2 3]

19:23 dnolen: jamii: nice

19:23 gfredericks: is that a tagged literal?

19:23 tomoj: devinus: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-976

19:25 devinus: "this needs more time" what does that mean?

19:28 bbloom: i assume he means hammock time?

19:29 i love that i wrote a 100 lines clojure library on the jvm and then tested on cljs and it worked first try :-)

19:32 Hodapp: nice!

19:32 bbloom: it's absolutely amazing how far you can get with maps, sets, and vectors

19:57 tomoj: I wonder if we should wait until cljs depends on 1.5 to put test-> etc in there

19:57 or maybe copy them over to cljs/core.clj in the meantime

19:58 bbloom: tomoj: probably no harm in copy pasting them over, since the goal is for cljs to eventually be self hosting

19:58 it will need to have copy pasted defs of everything eventually...

19:59 tomoj: submit a ticket with patch & see what dnolen says

20:00 tomoj: thankfully refer :exclude appears to not explode when you exclude something that doesn't exist

20:00 (I'm using cljs with 1.5)

20:00 bbloom: yeah, that seems like a reasonable behavior :-)

20:02 test-> is super useful :-)

20:18 alex_baranosky: any idea why adding this to my project file is not enough for leningen to find the needed jar for me? [org.clojure/tools.trace "0.7.5"]

20:19 is the trace jar in some odd repo?

20:19 gfredericks: alex_baranosky: in what way does it fail? it says it can't find the jar?

20:20 alex_baranosky: gfredericks: yeah, it says it can't find it in the specified repos - central, releases, clojars, snapshots

20:22 gfredericks: the sonatype repo says it only has "0.7.1" and "0.7.3"

20:23 so maybe there's been some failure to publish the most recent version

20:24 it was messed with quite recently apparently

20:24 maybe there's a delay

20:28 tomoj: in cljs, (zero? (inc nil))

20:28 guess I'm not surprised

20:29 gfredericks: I just got 1

20:29 tomoj: oh, yeah

20:29 bbloom: tomoj: unfortunately no way to make that give you an error without losing a lot of perf

20:29 tomoj: but I wonder if writing (update-in {} ks inc) is really a user error anyway

20:30 bbloom: similar issue: (+ 5 "adsf")

20:30 Sgeo__: Why should it be an error?

20:30 tomoj: ,(update-in {} [:foo] inc)

20:31 clojurebot: #<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>

20:31 bbloom: Sgeo__ automatic type coercion is a bug waiting to happen

20:31 but host semantics leak through sometimes

20:31 ,(+ 5 "adsf")

20:31 clojurebot: #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>

20:31 Sgeo__: tomoj, so what should I do if I want to inc the value at key :foo but if it's not there just leave it alone?

20:31 bbloom: clojurescript returns "5asdf"

20:32 ,(update-in {} [:foo] #(inc (or % 0)))

20:32 clojurebot: {:foo 1}

20:32 p_l: bbloom: have you seen a talk called "WAT"?

20:32 bbloom: p_l: yeah

20:32 alex_baranosky: gfredericks: ahhh… I tried 0.7.4, 0.7.2 and 0.7.0 amazingly -- thanks for the info, it works

20:32 p_l: then you know why ;)

20:33 Sgeo__: It's easy to make a monad around Lamina's result-channels

20:34 But what about Lamina channels?

20:37 bbloom: p_l: heh watched it again https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat it's pretty funny

20:37 tomoj: I note lamina seems to have no mapcat

20:38 oh wait

20:38 yeah it does

20:38 return x = (channel x); ch >>= f = (mapcat* f ch) ?

20:44 Sgeo__: but aren't channels sorta hopeless?

20:44 Sgeo__: hm?

20:44 clojurebot: benchmarking is https://github.com/hugoduncan/criterium

20:45 Sgeo__: Well, do we want channels used monadically to have those semantics?

20:46 Channels are effectively FRP Events, right? Are FRP Events monads, I forget

20:46 Erm, monadic values

20:47 tomoj: yes, Event is a monad

20:47 but channels aren't Events :)

20:47 bbloom: tomoj: Sgeo__: I know you guys are interested in FRP and dataflow and stuff.. i've been working on a less haskell-ish approach :-)

20:47 https://github.com/brandonbloom/qplan

20:48 tomoj: interesting

20:48 looking at the test, it reminds me of something I've been thinking about for http middleware ever since cemerick's solver for nrepl middleware

20:49 bbloom: the doc string in core.clj explains a tad of the academic bits, but see the referenced papers for real details

20:49 tomoj: guessing it's not what I think it is though

20:49 bbloom: tomoj: not familiar, link?

20:49 Sgeo: Solver for nrepl middleware?

20:49 bbloom: is the goal to just get a linearization of a dependency graph?

20:49 ie these middle wares need these, so run these in this order?

20:50 tomoj: yeah, that's what cemerick's did

20:50 although I am interested in more than linear stacks

20:50 bbloom: yeah, this is a bit more complex than that

20:50 this is multi-output and multi-directional

20:50 tomoj: dunno where it is, nrepl or somewhere

20:50 bbloom: in that case you have zero or more dependencies. in this case you have N to M inputs to outputs

20:51 with cycles

20:52 i intend to use this (or an optimized version of it) for the basis of a data bindings system

20:53 i have a whole bunch of half finished researchy experiments i'm going to slowly stitch together into a serious framework :-)

20:53 tomoj: so you'll have channels basically, or just event callbacks, which rerun evaluate with some new data?

20:54 bbloom: tomoj: it's not a continuous model, it's discreet

20:54 tomoj: sure, but what's the analogue of push seqs?

20:55 bbloom: tomoj: there isn't one really…

20:55 I expect to have something more similar to the datomic model

20:55 where you have some kind of "transaction data" so to speak

20:55 and you modify a priority map of properties, and then re-evaluate bindings

20:56 tomoj: so a click event occurs and some handle submits a 'transaction'?

20:56 handler

20:57 bbloom: yeah, something like that… clicking will send off a command

20:57 the command will be expanded, like a datomic transaction function

20:57 which occurs recursively until you have some set of primitives, like datomic has add and retract

20:58 tomoj: presumably, unlike datomic, the history will not be kept around? :)

20:58 bbloom: yeah, probably just going to keep exactly two versions: current and previous

20:58 tomoj: looks cool. I'll have to add those papers to my todo list

20:58 for the record, I seek not a haskell-ish approach, but a clojure-ish approach :)

20:59 bbloom: hence i expanded my search beyond functional programming papers, which tend to be very haskellish

21:00 the property models papers are collaborations with Adobe; ie C++

21:00 i need to think more about what an in-memory no-history version of datomic would look like

21:01 especially with good support for ordered trees

21:01 tomoj: yeah, I keep accidentally thinking I have type classes :(

21:01 Sgeo: Yeah, I think channels are more Applicative than Monadic

21:02 tomoj: the correct applicative for Events is very weird

21:02 Sgeo: Although, sort of getting into frustrations with Clojure not using thunked I/O

21:02 I'm calling it thunked instead of monadic, because monadicness isn't the only interesting thing

21:02 bbloom: Sgeo: what frustrations?

21:03 Sgeo: The Clojure equivalent of println <$> somechannel should return another channel, right?

21:03 A channel of ... what? IO values, I would think

21:03 But that's not so nice and intuitive in Clojure

21:04 (map println [1 2 3]) isn't a lazy sequence of things you can trigger to print out a number

21:04 It's a lazy sequence that, as the sequence gets realized, prints stuff out

21:04 Which I feel is too soon

21:05 bbloom: ah yes

21:05 clojurescript had a pr-seq interface

21:05 which returned a lazy sequence of strings

21:05 but it got yanked out for performance reasons

21:05 Sgeo: pr-seq is missing the point

21:06 bbloom: in what way? it isolates the IO

21:06 Sgeo: What I want is something that behaves like... (map (fn [v] (println v)) [1 2 3])

21:06 Wait, no

21:07 (map (fn [v] #(println v)) [1 2 3])

21:07 ,(map (fn [v] #(println v)) [1 2 3])

21:07 clojurebot: (#<sandbox$eval27$fn__28$fn__29 sandbox$eval27$fn__28$fn__29@1cb02395> #<sandbox$eval27$fn__28$fn__29 sandbox$eval27$fn__28$fn__29@6ff019e9> #<sandbox$eval27$fn__28$fn__29 sandbox$eval27$fn__28$fn__29@7c354968>)

21:07 Sgeo: ,(doseq [io (map (fn [v] #(println v)) [1 2 3])] (io))

21:07 clojurebot: 1

21:07 2

21:07 3

21:08 bbloom: do you really need that to apply to OTHER PEOPLE's printing? or can you simply: (fn [& args] (fn [] (apply print args))

21:09 Sgeo: It becomes relevent I think when you want to map doing IO onto things other than sequences

21:09 bbloom: Sgeo: I haven't done much with haskell outside of project euler toy apps

21:10 so i'm not really sure how it's IO performance is achieved or how dethunkificiation occurs in the compiler or any of that fancy stuff

21:11 nor am i really sure what benefits i get from lazy IO, other than the obvious downsides of resource leaks, motivating iterators, etc

21:11 Sgeo: lazy IO is generally discouraged in Haskell, but that's not what I'm getting at

21:12 Is there a function to get every other element from a list?

21:12 Or a lazy-seq?

21:12 tomoj: (partial take-nth 2)

21:12 Sgeo: ty

21:13 ,(dorun (take-nth 2 (map println [1 2 3 4])))

21:13 clojurebot: 1

21:13 2

21:13 3

21:13 4

21:14 Sgeo: ,(take-nth 2 (map #(str "(println " % ")") [1 2 3 4]))

21:14 clojurebot: ("(println 1)" "(println 3)")

21:14 tomoj: for me, in clojure, the answer is usually "don't put IO in a seq"

21:14 Sgeo: I want putting IO in a seq to be comfortable

21:14 basically

21:17 tomoj: what's uncomfortable? defining your own println that returns a function?

21:18 Sgeo: ,(doseq [io (take-nth 2 (map #(fn [] (println %)) [1 2 3 4]))] (io))

21:18 clojurebot: 1

21:18 3

21:18 Sgeo: tomoj, I'm sure I could write a function to take an I/O performing function and thunkify it

21:19 But I feel like it should be more built-in. I could also write my own dorun and doseq and for if the language didn't have them

21:19 Although the thunkify function probably is not as difficult to write as for

21:20 (fn [f] (fn [& args] (fn [] (apply f args))))

21:20 I think

21:22 tomoj: guess I don't understand IO well enough to understand the benefit, given that we have no static type system

21:22 gfredericks: isn't that just identity?

21:22 (fn [f] f) would do the same thing more performantly?

21:22 oh wait nevermind :)

21:23 Sgeo: tomoj, the benefit is that you can freely pass around objects that represent performing an action, without actually performing that action until you want to

21:24 tomoj: can't you freely do that here too? difference is there's no type distinction between an action and a nullary function

21:25 Sgeo: Yes, but the standard library isn't designed with that in mind

21:25 There's no function for walking along a seq of nullary functions and doing them all

21:25 tomoj: right, oh well

21:25 Sgeo: For example

21:27 tomoj: I don't see the benefit in having a standard library that is designed with thunked IO in mind :)

21:27 gfredericks: I've thought about it too; if the type system can't guarantee that a function is pure, then it seems like you're just getting the worst of both worlds

21:27 Sgeo: I find thunked I/O less confusing

21:28 tomoj: (reduce side-effects! nil seq-or-reducer-of-values)

21:29 eh. I do have IO problems. I dunno that thunked IO would solve them

21:29 Apage43: I still don't actually get what the desired behavior is, here

21:30 Sgeo: Desired behavior is for

21:30 ,(dorun (take-nth 2 (map println [1 2 3 4])))

21:30 clojurebot: 1

21:30 2

21:30 3

21:30 Sgeo: To just print 1 then 3

21:30 clojurebot: 4

21:30 Apage43: ah

21:33 ,(dorun (map deref (take-nth 2 (map #(delay (println %)) [1 2 3 4]))))

21:33 clojurebot: 1

21:33 3

21:33 tomoj: hmm, but those actions only execute once

21:34 i.e. if you dorun the same seq again, it just prints nothing

21:34 Apage43: ,(dorun (map #(%) (take-nth 2 (map #(fn [] (println %)) [1 2 3 4]))))

21:34 clojurebot: 1

21:34 3

21:34 tomoj: yeah, but Sgeo wants support from core :)

21:34 Apage43: and you can (dorun (map #(%) …)) that one a second time if you want to rerun the fn

21:35 Sgeo: If I write a library for this, what functions would I actually need to write?

21:36 thunkify, perform, dorun, doall, any others?

21:36 Would be nice to write (def perform #(%)) but that shows up differently in documentation, and I'm not sure where to put the docstring

21:37 Apage43: (def ^{:doc "I am a doc-string} somevar)

21:37 er

21:37 (def ^{:doc "I am a doc-string"} somevar)

21:37 tomoj: so reduce :: (a -> b) -> a -> IReduce b -> IO b

21:37 Apage43: ,(meta #'+)

21:37 clojurebot: {:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name +, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 920, :arglists ([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]), ...}

21:38 Sgeo: Ugh, I'd need to include arglists too, wouldn't I

21:38 Clojure makes it so painful to be pointless

21:38 I love pointless programming

21:39 (Yes, I know the usual term is pointfree. I'm trying to be funny)

21:39 ChongLi: even haskell can make it painful to do pointfree style

21:39 if you're trying to stretch it anyway

21:40 there's some real gymnastics you do when there are multiple arguments

21:40 like the owl combinator

21:41 Sgeo: Isn't there some sort of semantic editors thingy?

21:41 gfredericks: Apage43: clojure allows docstrings on def now

21:41 Sgeo: Which I don't entirely understand, but whatever.

21:41 Apage43: oh? Neat.

21:41 gfredericks: (def perform "This is my perform fn" #(%))

21:41 Sgeo: ,(-> (meta #'+) keys)

21:41 clojurebot: (:ns :name :file :line :arglists ...)

21:41 tomoj: I'm working on a semantic editors library

21:41 not going so well

21:41 Sgeo: gfredericks, it will still be called a var and not a function by documentation though I think

21:42 gfredericks: Sgeo: that'd be tool specific, right?

21:42 or you mean the :arglists missing and such?

21:43 Sgeo: :arglists missing, and the var thing I'm pretty sure I saw on Incanter documentation

21:43 gfredericks: ,(-> *clojure-version* var meta keys)

21:43 clojurebot: (:added :doc :ns :name :dynamic ...)

21:43 Sgeo: ztellman uses some library he wrote for importing fns from a namespace, wouldn't be necessary if def were comfortable

21:45 tomoj: you say (def foo +), and you want the :line/:file metadata to point back to clojure.core? or you just want specific parts of the metadata? :)

21:46 gfredericks: arglists would be nice

21:46 hmm :/

21:46 arglists and doc seem problematic though

21:47 anything can be added manually

21:50 Sgeo: tomoj, well, would be nice to say (def foo (comp a b)), in which case there's multiple things that line and file would come from

21:50 tomoj: oh, right, even (def foo +) is doomed since + has no metadata

21:50 gfredericks: tomoj: but presumably (def foo +) is an abstraction, and taking just about anything from + would be leaky

21:51 Sgeo: Because relevant metadata like arglists is on the var and not the fn

21:51 If it were on the fn, comp could produce new metadata

21:51 For example

21:51 Although it would be annoying for writers of functions like that to have to do so, I guess

21:52 tomoj: the problem to me is that clojure.core can't choose for you what you want, you have to choose

21:52 if you want a comp that passes on some particular metadata you have to write it, since there's no generally desirable way to merge the metadata, I think

21:54 gfredericks: yeah, that's another case where clojure can't decide for you

22:05 hmm http://okmij.org/ftp/Haskell/zip-folds.lhs

22:05 interesting point there. since we have r/take and r/drop, we can get r/zip

22:05 except.. that causes trouble if a reducer does IO upon reduce

22:05 and seems likely inefficient?

22:12 devinus: can anybody explain why there seems to be a lot of mongo love in the clojure community?

22:12 am i missing something or is it just a coincidence?

22:20 gfredericks: clojure is webscale?

22:26 bbloom: devinus: probably a coincidence

22:26 mongo has a lot of buzz, it's dynamically typed, it's pretty easy to set up.. there's probably some overlap in the style of workflows, so there's some overlap in the user bases

23:06 Apage43: devinus: I think it's about the same as the hold it has with node/python/ruby/etc., for prettymuch the reasons bbloom said

23:19 jonasen: seangrove: http://jida.herokuapp.com/?query-id=50bad538e4b02c359b552010

23:19 seangrove: what happened with the datomic update? I saw you reverted it

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