#clojure log - Nov 02 2012

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0:00 frenchyp: ok, thanks for clearing that out

0:10 brainproxy: best practices for exception messages?

0:11 i.e. should they (never) contain line breaks? maximum length?

0:26 jkkramer: brainproxy: no advice from me re messages, but you might consider using ex-info to include relevant data in the exception for the caller to check out

0:29 TimMc: See notes on slingshot.

0:36 brainproxy: jkkramer: thanks

0:36 TimMc: slingshot looks awesome, need to remember to make a study of it

1:20 myguidingstar: xeqi: thank you so much. I've written a very first repl

1:20 xeqi: myguidingstar: hurray!

2:30 ForSpareParts: Does Clojure code get cached somehow by clojure.lang.Compiler?

2:30 It looks like my Java program is running an old version of my Clojure code, but I don't know why.

2:38 amalloy: AOTed code lives on disk, and its compilation is generally pretty mysterious. lein clean will get rid of it

2:45 ForSpareParts: amalloy, How can I load a file on demand?

2:46 Like outside of the classpath?

2:47 I tried Compiler.loadFile(), but as you pointed out, that's getting me AOT'd code.

4:22 wingy: is there a way to make an xml string without the <xml> tag https://www.refheap.com/paste/6336

4:34 _ulises: wingy: any reason why you'd want that? is it to compose xml snippets?

4:34 wingy: _ulises: im going to send xml in a http request for a service and its documentation shows xml without the xml tag

4:35 _ulises: wingy: strange; have you tried sending the xlm with the <xml...> and seeing if the service complains? perhaps the <xml...> bit was omitted from the documentation for brevity

4:36 wingy: _ulises: perhaps they accept without xml?

4:36 _ulises: wingy: in any case, you could try generating the xml using hiccup

4:37 wingy: yeah that would be as good

4:37 easier to write since you don't have to use xml/element to create it

4:38 amalloy: you don't have to use xml/element for data.xml either

4:38 _ulises: amalloy to the rescue! \o/

4:38 amalloy: i added sexp-as-element to data.xml, which takes hiccup-style vectors

4:39 wingy: amalloy: in what version? i get an error while trying that

4:40 amalloy: *shrug*

4:40 (and if you're using clojure.xml for anything...god help you. use clojure.data.xml, or any other viable tool)

4:40 wingy: im using clojure.data.xml

5:37 maleghast: Morning All...

5:37 * maleghast tips hat to the room

5:40 ejackson: morning

5:41 maleghast: Anything exciting happening today?

5:41 _ulises: morning

5:41 maleghast: I mean it __is__ Friday ;-)

6:19 hyPiRion: It's the last day before tomorrow, if that counts for anything.

6:30 wingy: huh?

6:31 Raynes: *whoosh*

6:35 ejackson: whooooooosh

6:35 i'm enjoying your enthusiasm there Raynes

6:35 Iceland_jack: Are you?

6:36 ejackson: i'm a big fan of enthusiasm

6:40 _ulises: I'm just an enthusiast of enthusiasm

6:40 *badum tish*

6:41 ejackson: well done.

7:03 Cheiron: Hi, I want to add Maven Central repo to project.clj to get http://search.maven.org/#artifactdetails%7Corg.apache.zookeeper%7Czookeeper%7C3.3.2%7Cjar

7:03 what is the address of it?

7:17 jakubH: Cheiron: I believe that maven central is checked by lein by default

7:26 clgv: jakubH: Cheiron: yes, maven central is a default repository that is checked by leiningen

7:27 Cheiron: clgv: jakubh: then I don't know why it is complaining when getting zookeeper's Sun's jmx jars

7:27 clgv: Cheiron: well, what exactly does it complain?

7:27 Cheiron: Thanks by the way!

7:27 it can't get jmxri and jmxtools

7:27 clgv: Cheiron: most likely you have an error in [group-id/artifact-id version]

7:27 jakubH: there are always problems with things like the jmx jars; dtailed log of the error would help

7:28 Cheiron: will install them manually

7:28 jakubH: if you have maven, you can also run lein pom and mvn -X dependency:resolve to get detailed error messages

7:28 clgv: Cheiron: I dont see any direct dependency named "jmx..." in that POM

7:29 jakubH: Cheiron: you might also try to add the java.net repo as shown in https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj

7:30 Cheiron: I will, thanks fellas

7:33 jakubH: java.net doesn't help

7:33 Cheiron: meh, [org.apache.zookeeper/zookeeper "3.3.2"] needs jmx libs somehow

7:33 jakubH: the problem with Sun is that these stupid libs are under a license that doesn't allow them being in maven central

7:34 here is it described: http://onemanwenttomow.wordpress.com/2007/12/31/maven2-log4j-and-jmx-dependencies/

7:35 the same here http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7323248/coludnt-find-the-following-dependencies-com-sun-jmxjmxrijar1-2-1-and-com-su

7:35 really extreme pain imposed by Sun+Oracle on the poor world :(

7:41 Cheiron: jakubH: Thanks fella!

7:45 jakubH: yw

8:13 mklappstuhl: https://www.refheap.com/paste/6339

8:19 xeqi: mklappstuhl: mean-daily-returns calls (daily-returns (:etf trade))

8:19 which eventually gets to parse-file, which does :etf again

8:20 mklappstuhl: xeqi, man you were fast I was still writing (got distracted then)

8:20 xeqi, thank you

8:23 xeqi, how would you approach/debug this kind of issue beside looking at the code? It's hard to tell where stuff fails with clojure sometimes

8:26 xeqi: mklappstuhl: I've heard about debuggers like https://github.com/pallet/ritz or the one in eclipse, but I usually manually walk it or stick printlns in

8:28 for example here, println in parse-file to make sure trade is nil, then println in daily-returns and see that trade is nil, then see (:etf trade) in mean-daily-returns

8:28 for more complex things the call stack is invaluable

9:14 shriphani: hello everyone. I have a question about how somethings in scheme map to clojure. I remember that I could place several defines inside a function definition and use them in the function body. Apart from (let [foo (fn [x]…))) is there a better way to do something about internal functions that don't fit in a line ?

9:23 swarmer: shriphani: letfn ?

9:23 shriphani: swarmer: thanks.

9:57 Cheiron: any good libraries to work with HTTP in clj?

9:58 _ulises: Cheiron: try clj-http

9:58 Cheiron: any another funky cool lib?

10:02 notsonerdysunny: is there a way to have lein2 not check for the project dependencies from the web.. because I know they are already there in the local "~/.m2" cache .. and some of them are installed by me using "lein localrepo" .. this additional checking unnecesarrily delays starting of swank

10:04 cemerick: notsonerdysunny: use `lein -o …` for offline mode

10:05 MasseR: What's the library name for pattern matching?

10:05 xeqi: core.match

10:06 MasseR: Thanks

10:07 notsonerdysunny: thanks cemerick

10:07 I am not able to get how to run lein2 swank-wrap .. I have already set the :main namespace in the project.clj so I tried "lein2 swank-wrap [4005]" with no success .. can you please help?

10:09 specifying the namespace again on the lein2 commad helped me run lein2 swank-wrap 4005 <main-ns>

10:09 thanks

10:11 alexnixon: Does a function already exist in clojure which can replace the anonymous fn here (essentially a non-variable-args version of 'apply')?: (condp #(%1 %2) 42 nil? "nil!" number? "number!")

10:13 (I can see other ways of writing this to achieve the same effect but I'm just interested whether this fn exists)

10:17 mklappstuhl: xeqi, how would I access the call stack?

10:18 _ulises: alexnixon: why not use (comp apply vector)?

10:18 alexnixon: I know that wasn't your question though :)

10:20 alexnixon: ,(condp (comp apply vector) 42 nil? "nil!" number? "number!")

10:20 clojurebot: #<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$apply>

10:20 _ulises: oh, it'd have to be the other way around

10:20 I mean, reverse ... never mind, ignore me

10:21 alexnixon: _ulises: you can get close using apply with (condp apply [42] nil? "nil!" number? "number!")

10:22 _ulises: hrmph

10:25 Gmind: why (defn factorial2 [acc n]

10:25 (if (< n 2)

10:25 acc

10:25 (recur (* acc n ) (dec n)))) will run for (factorial2 1 20) without overflow but larger will be trouble ?

10:25 Bronsa: mi sta venendo il cancro

10:25 ops. wrong chan.

10:25 solussd: Gmind: use *' instead of *

10:26 it'll auto-promote to BigNums

10:26 Gmind: while (defn factorial [n acc] (if (< n 2) acc (recur (dec n) (* acc n)))) will be able to get to > 5000

10:26 solussd: Gmind: also, it should never be overflowing, you should be getting an overflow exception

10:27 Gmind: Yep, it's an exception

10:28 ArithmeticException integer overflow

10:28 clgv: Gmind: the long type is finite. so if you exceed it you get an exception. with *' clojure will convert the long to a BigInt which can have arbitrary size

10:29 solussd: yeah, BigInt, not BigNum.

10:31 Gmind: clgv mean "cai l*n gi vay" ?

10:32 solussd: what's the difference ?

10:32 clgv: Gmind: hwat?

10:32 Gmind: what's your nick mean ?

10:32 I just guess its meaning

10:32 mklappstuhl: I'm generating a list of hashmaps here but I'd like to have these sorted by one field ...

10:32 clgv: nothing special

10:32 solussd: one is for ints, the other for floats, etc

10:32 mklappstuhl: how would I use something like sorted-map in this case?

10:32 https://github.com/mklappstuhl/computational-investing.clj/blob/master/src/mklappstuhl/stock_utils/data.clj#L31

10:32 clgv: mklappstuhl: sort-by

10:34 &(sort-by :b [{:a 10 :b 1} {:a 2 :b 2} {:a 8 :b 3} {:a 1 :b 4}])

10:34 lazybot: ⇒ ({:a 10, :b 1} {:a 2, :b 2} {:a 8, :b 3} {:a 1, :b 4})

10:34 clgv: &(sort-by :a [{:a 10 :b 1} {:a 2 :b 2} {:a 8 :b 3} {:a 1 :b 4}])

10:34 lazybot: ⇒ ({:a 1, :b 4} {:a 2, :b 2} {:a 8, :b 3} {:a 10, :b 1})

10:40 Gmind: clgv: thank for *', that really work

10:41 clgv: Gmind: the main problem with faculty is that it grows so fast ;)

10:42 Gmind: I'm new to Clojure, as on the way exploring its feature, and I stopped at this Recur keyword for a while. Must be me way too familiar with the old recur way

10:43 clgv: "old recur way"?

10:53 Gmind1: clgv: like non-tail recursion

10:56 solussd: part of me likes the fact that I must be explicit in performing tail call recursion, rather than knowing that certain seemingly inefficient code will be optimized into tail call recursion by the compiler (like in scheme)

11:05 Gmind1: solussd: as paul said somewhere if I can remember right, he said that writing code is what developer responsible for, optimization is what compiler made for.

11:06 .. anyway, just laughing so much when reading this http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyWeHateLisp =]

11:06 solussd: Gmind1: and I wholeheartedly agree-- that said, i dont want to have to avoid recursive calls altogether b/c i dont know weather or not they;ll blow up. if I explicitly make a tail call in a way I know is "safe", I'll use more tail calls. :D

11:07 Gmind1: some reasons are very ridiculous

11:07 solussd: *whether

11:07 MasseR: The match library has a warning that it's alpha quality and shouldn't be used with aot. Does 'lein uberjar' aot compiling?

11:08 Gmind1: that's right . I just feel it's not straight forward sometimes =.="

11:09 jweiss: can someone recommend a way to log to a different file for each thread in the system? seems inefficient to have one function look up the current thread name and rebind *out* to a FileOutputStream to the thread's file every time a log statement is written.

11:10 and using a binding form doesn't work either, because of futures and binding conveyance

11:13 clgv: MasseR: if you specify a :main class with a "-main" function then there will be AOT compiling

11:14 jweiss: you could use java's ThreadLocal class

11:15 jweiss: that one will call an initialize method for every thread it was not used yet

11:19 MasseR: clgv: Ok thanks

11:31 clgv: How do I get something more detailed than "Error loading project.clj" from lein2?

11:40 ambrosebs: Pretty cool example of what occurrence typing/heterogeneous maps helps Typed Clojure infer https://gist.github.com/4001974

11:42 Anderkent: clgv: run with DEBUG set

11:42 clgv: DEBUG= lein <command>

11:43 clgv: Anderkent: thx

11:45 pjb3: Hey, I have a clojure app where I'd like it to connect to one database if it's running tests and a different database otherwise

11:46 is there a way to set an env var or something when you run lein test?

11:46 I mean, I could do APP_ENV=test lein test

11:46 egghead: I usually use bindings for that pjb3, something like (with-dev-db (db stuff))

11:46 pjb3: but it seems like there must be a conventional solution to this already

11:47 egghead: I'm not sure if it's the best solution, but having stuff like *dbhost* and *dbport* be dynamically bound has worked for me

11:47 pjb3: egghead: but how do you make the binding behave differently depending on if you run lein test vs. if you are just running the code in lein repl

11:48 stack: hello, I was wondering why about this strange code https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RestFn.java

11:49 egghead: lein test is hard coded to use the test bindings, lein repl I use whatever bindings I want

11:49 alexnixon: pjb3: I've used midje's 'around' form for that in the past

11:51 pjb3: egghead: how is lein test hard coded to use the test bindings?

11:52 like, in every test you surround it in (with-dev-db)?

11:53 egghead: ya

11:53 again, probably not the coolest/cleanest way to do it, just what i've done in the past :)

11:58 alexnixon: egghead: AIUI that's an idiomatic solution

11:59 egghead: good to know

12:01 pjb3: not a fan of wrapping every call in the tests in a macro

12:03 I know it's heresy in the Clojure community, but a global var is a better solution then bindings that are dynamically scoped at a high-level, IMO

12:03 alexnixon: pjb3: you could consider using midje: look at the sql example example under "The longer version" https://github.com/marick/Midje/wiki/Setup%2C-Teardown%2C-and-State

12:04 dnolen: pjb3: it just depends.

12:12 pjb3: starting to think APP_ENV=test lein test isn't such a bad solution :)

12:12 technomancy: pjb3: typically you would load test-specific config from the test-resources directory, which is only on the classpath during test

12:13 pjb3: test-resources?

12:13 technomancy: you don't need any special support from your testing lib just to change the DB connection parameters

12:14 pjb3: technomancy: is there an example of this somewhere?

12:15 technomancy: pjb3: all the projects I've worked on have used the same config for dev/test and just pulled in special config during production from the deployment mechanism

12:15 so I don't know off the top of my head

12:16 pjb3: technomancy: what did you mean by test-resources directory, like test/resources/dbconfig.clj or something?

12:17 technomancy: no, just test-resources/config.clj

12:18 pjb3: what is test-resources? Is that a leiningen thing?

12:18 technomancy: yeah

12:18 pjb3: is that mentioned in the docs somewhere?

12:18 joegallo: technomancy: i work on a project like that, we do the same thing.

12:19 technomancy: pjb3: dev-resources certainly is... not sure about test-resources

12:19 joegallo: you don't say?

12:19 bobbrahms: I have this large java maven spring project that I'd like to use clojure with. I'm using clojure-maven-plugin. The existing java build builds classes into target/classes. When I mvn clojure:compile I get ClassNotFound exceptions where I refer to my java classes. How do I tell the clojure-maven-plugin where to look for my java classes?

12:19 joegallo: small world

12:21 technomancy: https://github.com/Seajure/metaverse/blob/master/test/metaverse/nser.clj

12:22 ^ nix for namespaces

12:26 egghead: i've been doing that scala course by odersky, its making me appreciate clojure more and more

12:28 dnolen_: low hanging CLJS fruit for somebody w/ CA who wants to help out - fix Herwig's patch for CLJS-401, then we can cut a new CLJS release - http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-401

12:29 bobbrahms: Can anyone tell me how to tell clojure-maven-plugin where to look for my java class files?

12:29 or point me in the right direction?

12:30 I'm trying to add clojure to my spring project, but the plugin doesn't seem to know where my java class files are.

12:31 technomancy: bobbrahms: the guy who knows clojure-maven-plugin lives in new zealand, so you're not likely to get a response for another few hours just fyi

12:32 bobbrahms: Thanks for the info!

12:44 Anderkent: bobbrahms: can you do clojure:repl and print out the classpath? See if target/classes is on it (it should).

12:48 qubit[01]: !paste

12:48 (paste)

12:49 Hi all, Im new to clojure, I have a file that im parsing whose 4th and 3rd columns are high and low temperature, how would I store the smallest spread ? http://pastebin.com/0BANKrmF

12:49 Im struggling with how to set the variable, I know (min ), just how do I assign it to something to return ?

12:51 S11001001: qubit[01]: you can't set variables

12:51 &(doc min)

12:51 lazybot: ⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/min ([x] [x y] [x y & more]) Returns the least of the nums. nil

12:51 S11001001: qubit[01]: be prepared for a completely different way of problem solving than what you're used to

12:51 &(doc line-seq)

12:51 lazybot: ⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/line-seq ([rdr]) Returns the lines of text from rdr as a lazy sequence of strings. rdr must implement java.io.BufferedReader. nil

12:51 S11001001: &(doc map)

12:51 lazybot: ⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/map ([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & colls]) Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in ea... https://www.refheap.com/paste/6342

12:51 S11001001: &(doc apply)

12:51 lazybot: ⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/apply ([f args] [f x args] [f x y args] [f x y z args] [f a b c d & args]) Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending intervening arguments to args. nil

12:52 S11001001: qubit[01]: everything I just asked lazybot about are your essential tools to solve your probelm

12:52 problem

12:52 qubit[01]: hmm

12:53 Anderkent: qubit[01]: you might want to make a function that given a filename returns a list of differences between 3rd and 4th column values

12:54 qubit[01]: ahh ok, thanks :)

12:54 Anderkent: qubit[01]: then having that list you can reduce it the smallest one using min

12:54 qubit[01]: coolio, I'm working through codekata to try to learn clojure

12:54 S11001001: &(min 2 3 1 4 5 7 32)

12:54 lazybot: ⇒ 1

12:54 Anderkent: have fun :)

13:00 jro: (defn lz[i] (cons i (lz (lazy-seq (inc i))))) (take 3 (lz 3))

13:00 StackOverflowError ontrail.core/lz/fn--408 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:31)

13:02 rjo: I do not see problem in my lazy sequence ^

13:07 raek: rjo: (assuming you are "jro") you should write it as (defn lz [i] (lazy-seq (cons i (lz (inc i)))))

13:08 that is, lazy-seq wraps a seq (here a cons) and delays it

13:10 rjo: thanks! I was looking the documentation in (defn lz [i] (lazy-seq (cons i (lz (inc i)))))

13:10 http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/lazy-seq

13:10 sorry

13:11 is this somehow releted to (clojure-version)

13:11 "1.4.0"

13:11 since the documentation is for 1.3

13:11 Anderkent: Anyone using REPL-y had an issue where ctrl-c while entering multiline statements messes up your terminal?

13:12 raek: rjo: you can also write it like this: (defn lz [i] (cons i (lazy-seq (lz (inc i)))))

13:12 but then the first step is not lazy

13:12 Anderkent: rjo: in general your recursion must be within lazy-seq

13:12 raek: rjo: in your example you had the lazy-seq around the argument to lz, not around the (lz ...) expression)

13:19 rjo: oh, thanks. I was blind.

13:24 bobbrahms: Anderkent: The directory is in the classpath. I see where my error is, I have the class in a different place than it should be. Thanks!

13:25 Anderkent: Glad you figured it out.

13:25 qubit[01]: how do I get this http://pastebin.com/mQsjcJHT to work, its just returning the entire list instead of the max entry in the list

13:25 is there a spread operator in clojure ?

13:26 alexnixon: ,(doc apply)

13:26 clojurebot: "([f args] [f x args] [f x y args] [f x y z args] [f a b c d ...]); Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending intervening arguments to args."

13:27 rjo: is it generally a good pattern in clojure to define lazy seqs?

13:28 technomancy: rjo: depends what "define lazy seqs" means?

13:28 rjo: well, in this case I wanted to create time intervals consisting of weeks

13:29 so I wrote:

13:29 (defn from [date-time] (cons (week-period date-time) (lazy-seq (from (time/plus date-time (time/days 7))))))

13:29 (defn n-weeeks-from [date-time n] (take n (from date-time)))

13:29 qubit[01]: any critiques on this http://pastebin.com/Kv2LdgYg ? Gets the lowest temperature spread from a column based file

13:29 technomancy: calling lazy-seq directly is usually unnecessary unless you're writing very low-level code

13:30 TimMc: Really?

13:30 mpan: Is there an approximate equivalent to the programming style of http://hackedbellini.org/development/writing-asynchronous-python-code-with-twisted-using-inlinecallbacks/ for doing evented code in Clojure?

13:31 TimMc: If by "low-level" you mean "helper fns", sure.

13:31 rjo: technomancy, do you mean that (n-weeks-from [date-time n] ... (map (partial * 7) (range 0 n)) is better?

13:32 technomancy: rjo: probably, yeah

13:32 mpenet: mpan: Lamina is probably what you are looking for

13:33 technomancy: TimMc: I've only written a lazy-seq directly once, and even that I realized three hours later could be expressed in terms of for

13:33 mpan: And sort-of related to the previous question: Is there a way to make a "generator"? i.e. some value that can be called and maintains internal execution state between calls

13:33 mpenet: I'll look into that. Thanks!

13:33 TimMc: mpan: lazy-seq :-)

13:33 raek: mpan: lazy sequences and functions closing over atoms can both be used for that

13:34 S11001001: &(doc reductions) ;mpan, or what TimMc said

13:34 lazybot: ⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/reductions ([f coll] [f init coll]) Returns a lazy seq of the intermediate values of the reduction (as per reduce) of coll by f, starting with init. nil

13:34 raek: 'iterate' can be worth checking out too

13:34 mpan: Those take explicit state passed in and out?

13:34 rjo: is there any other differences in those two, other than just the style?

13:35 S11001001: mpan: yep

13:35 raek: mpan: yes, state is "updated" via recursion

13:35 mpan: But is there a way to write code such that an expression "yields" multiple values as it gets called multiple times?

13:35 Or is that stylistically non-idiomatic?

13:35 S11001001: mpan: that is stylistically verboten.

13:35 raek: (lazy-seq ...) is kind of like yield

13:35 S11001001: mpan: referential transparency is greatly favored

13:35 technomancy: mpan: if you have multiple values, you should use a seq

13:35 mpan: All right. Thanks so much, you all!

13:37 Anderkent: qubit[01]: looks okay, you can use % instead of %1 in your lambda if you only have one arg in it. You might also want to use split-lines instead of split, unless you really only want \n and not \r\n.

13:37 qubit[01]: Anderkent, ok both good suggestions :)

13:38 * nDuff finds a use for memfn; will wonders never cease.

14:02 qubit[01]: who would I return a range in a list, like arr[5 .. 12] ?

14:02 which would return elements 5 - 12 as a new list

14:02 dgrnbrg: qubit[01]: are you using vectors or sequences?

14:02 technomancy: qubit[01]: take/drop

14:02 dgrnbrg: or subvec

14:03 qubit[01]: vectors

14:03 ok cool

14:06 xeqi: mklappstuhl: you could (throw (Exception. "forced exception")) or such when the :eft in the case your paste had. There are other ways, but thats the easiest

14:07 TimMc: qubit[01]: NB: subvec just does index arithmetic on the original vector (and thus keeps a pointer to the whole thing).

14:32 qubit[01]: any critiques on this binary search in clojure ? Doesnt quite feel right http://pastebin.com/9mi9f1ti

14:35 S11001001: qubit[01]: change bsearch calls to "recur" instead

14:35 qubit[01]: ,(recur)

14:35 TimMc: qubit[01]: You're using a random-access algorithm on a sequential-access data structure.

14:36 clojurebot: Execution Timed Out

14:36 S11001001: qubit[01]: also remember that `if' is like ternary op, not a "statement"

14:36 qubit[01]: ,(doc recur)

14:36 clojurebot: No entiendo

14:36 nDuff: qubit[01]: ...by the way, please consider using a pastebin without the flashy animated ads in the future. gist.github.com and refheap are both good.

14:36 technomancy: nDuff: how many times is this going to happen before you break down and submit a lazybot pull request? =)

14:36 S11001001: qubit[01]: and refheap is clojurian so it's all dogfoody

14:37 TimMc: mmm, dogfood

14:37 qubit[01]: kk thanks all

14:37 https://www.refheap.com/paste <-- much prettier

14:37 nDuff: technomancy: Heh. Last time I looked at lazybot's source, I didn't see a bunch of known existing triggers there -> assumed they were out-of-band somewhere, and didn't want to dig.

14:38 technomancy: nDuff: annoyance is a powerful motivator though

14:38 qubit[01]: TimMc, what is a random access data structure in clojure ?

14:38 TimMc: vector

14:40 qubit[01]: coolio

14:42 * nDuff grumbles a bit about memfn's calling convention

14:45 TimMc: nDuff: Oh those args... that must be for hinting, yeah?

14:47 nDuff: TimMc: Hard to have hinting work right if you don't know the object you're going to be invoked against until runtime... and why not take class/type names, then, rather than meaningless names?

14:49 TimMc: &(let [& 5] ((fn [&] &)))

14:49 lazybot: ⇒ 5

14:54 dnolen_: bbloom: CLJS-401 resolved

14:54 egghead: is there something like 'some' that will return the found item rather than just returning true or false?

14:55 i.e. return the first thing in the collection to satisfy th epredicate

14:55 technomancy: egghead: (comp first filter)

14:55 egghead: hmm, and so because first is lazy it won't filter the entire collection?

14:56 pretty nice... thanks technomancy

14:56 technomancy: sure

14:56 might be more complicated with chunked sequences

14:57 egghead: hmm, swapping out (comp first filter) with some worked... now to try to wrap my head around how that composition works...

14:57 bbloom: dnolen_: good

15:01 TimMc: &(let [& 0 ampers (memfn assoc & _)] (ampers [1 2 3] 'first 'place))

15:01 lazybot: ⇒ [(first place) 2 3]

15:05 amalloy: you are a sneaky devil, TimMc

15:14 callen: oh herro UnicodeDecodeError, long time no see.

15:16 TimMc: amalloy: I'm actually rather dissatisfied with it. I feel like it could be more compact and misleading.

15:16 It's not immediately counterobvious enough to be cute.

15:18 Bronsa: playing with the clojure compiler http://i.imgur.com/vagyp.png

15:25 lynaghk: dnolen_: ping

15:27 dnolen_: lynaghk: pong

15:28 lynaghk: dnolen_: What's the story with the fancy-unification you mentioned to me at Strata?

15:28 dnolen_: is that something that's going to land soon, on the drawing board, or what?

15:28 dnolen_: lynaghk: I have a pretty nice idea.

15:29 lynaghk: during unification you can queue a constraint for a var. after unification these will be run to make sure they weren't violated. I think this should handle your use case cleanly.

15:30 lynaghk: dnolen_: are you in the market for implementation help in the next week? I'm pushing pretty hard on rolling out an alpha for the chart stuff and would like to start filling out the rewrites.

15:30 dnolen_: lynaghk: definitely on the table for 0.8.0, after I get out of all this election insanity, I'm planning on working on it.

15:30 lynaghk: not planning on doing anything on this until after Nov. 6th

15:31 lynaghk: it's a minor change that I can apply to master so maybe mid next week

15:31 lynaghk: dnolen_: okay. You're thinking that there'd be an extra parameter, "constraints", given to IUnifyTerms?

15:31 dnolen_: lynaghk: no need

15:32 lynaghk: you can cue constraints on the substitution which comes in an extra parameter already

15:32 er queue

15:32 lynaghk: dnolen_: ah, yeah. that was my second guess = )

15:34 dnolen_: lynaghk: yeah it should be pretty simple and very useful. one place I could get help is how to support this via simple unification where the unification form is usually quoted ... multimethods?

15:34 lynaghk: dnolen_: Not sure how I'd implement a special symbol meaning "no value for this key" with that system, though.

15:34 dnolen_: lynaghk: ^

15:35 lynaghk: dnolen_: not following. A multimethod so that people can extend the unification sematics a la cart for their own datatypes?

15:36 dnolen_: lynaghk: when I implement I plan on writing up an example in the repo to demonstrate how this works.

15:36 lynaghk: no how interpret custom symbols

15:36 TimMc: Bronsa: Creepy.

15:36 Bronsa: thanks.

15:36 dnolen_: lynaghk: '(1 2 ?x) where ?x must be a map, or any arbitrary predicate really

15:36 lynaghk: dnolen_: ah. args to the multimethod would be what?

15:38 dnolen_: lynaghk: or might be better to pass constraints as map of constraint fns ...

15:38 lynaghk: this is what I mean by i could use help, I don't know what the interface should look like. implementing the internal is easy

15:39 lynaghk: dnolen_: I'll gist up my wildest dreams this afternoon and we can see if they make any sense

15:40 dnolen_: lynaghk: that will be very helpful.

15:49 lynaghk: I'm assuming for your use case simple constraints are sufficient? I've been thinking about "deep constraints" as well after seeing Will & Dan's talk at StrangeLoop

15:49 lynaghk: dnolen_: yes, I believe my constraints are simple. Not sure what the technical meaning of deep is though.

15:49 dnolen_: i.e. no subterm of this term should violate this constraint

15:50 '(1 2 ?x) where is x is an arbitrary nesting of lists where even numbers don't appear.

15:51 lynaghk: dnolen_: yes, everything I have in mind satisfies that---assuming there is a way to handle the "doesn't have key". E.g., {:this 1 :no-haz !_ :that {:also-no-has !_ :c 3}}

15:51 dnolen_: yeah, nothing like that as far as I'm aware.

15:51 dnolen_: cool

15:52 the simpler case is easier to handle anyhow, I can the other thing later.

15:52 I can add I mean

16:20 holo: hi

16:20 ##(= '' "spam")

16:20 lazybot: ⇒ true

16:21 TimMc: ...

16:21 holo: i know single quotes for strings is not valid in clojure, but returning true is an expected behaviour even?

16:21 S11001001: holo: are you looking for [+' +]

16:21 bbloom: ,(count '(= '' "spam"))

16:21 clojurebot: 2

16:22 TimMc: bbloom: not quite

16:22 bbloom: ,'(= '' "spam")

16:22 clojurebot: (= (quote (quote "spam")))

16:22 holo: TimMc, haha, i think it was yesterday you asked me if i knew about this. today by accident, i did it again

16:22 bbloom: my point was that what looks like 2 arguments to = is actually one argument

16:22 ,(= 1)

16:22 clojurebot: true

16:22 TimMc: bbloom: Oh wait, you're right.

16:23 holo: bblom, great

16:23 i mean *bbloom

16:23 TimMc: ,(count ''(= '' "spam")) ;; this is basically what I was thinking of

16:23 clojurebot: 2

16:24 dnolen_: jimduey: I'm curious if you ever tried benchmarking the monad versions of core.logic (beyond the fork/join one) and how they fared?

16:24 TimMc: ,(count (flatten ''''''''' spam))

16:24 clojurebot: 9

16:24 bbloom: many clojure (and most lisps) functions have seemingly odd arity base cases, but they are actually useful for code generation targets

16:24 TimMc: Unary literals!

16:24 bbloom: consider:

16:24 ,(*)

16:24 clojurebot: 1

16:24 bbloom: ,(+)

16:24 clojurebot: 0

16:24 TimMc: ,(=)

16:24 clojurebot: #<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$-EQ->

16:24 S11001001: because it makes them monoidal

16:25 bbloom: S11001001: shh beat me to it :-P

16:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoid

16:25 not sure why = isn't defined for 0 arguments

16:25 it is defined for 1, however

16:25 S11001001: among the clojure data structure types, there are more monoids than non-monoids

16:26 ToBeReplaced: feel like i'm missing a core func... how would you express "integral type"... best i have is #(and (not (ratio? %)) (rational? %))

16:26 bbloom: ,(doc integer?)

16:26 clojurebot: "([n]); Returns true if n is an integer"

16:26 bbloom: ,((juxt integer? class) 1)

16:26 clojurebot: [true java.lang.Long]

16:26 ToBeReplaced: ,(integer? 1M)

16:26 clojurebot: false

16:27 ToBeReplaced: ,(#(and (not (ratio? %)) (rational? %)) 1M)

16:27 clojurebot: true

16:27 bbloom: hm

16:27 S11001001: ,(class 1M)

16:27 clojurebot: java.math.BigDecimal

16:27 bbloom: *shrug* numbers are hard :-P

16:27 oh yeah, you're looking for N

16:27 ,(integer 1N)

16:27 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: integer in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>

16:27 bbloom: ,(integer? 1N)

16:27 clojurebot: true

16:27 ToBeReplaced: ah ya

16:28 S11001001: ,(#(and (not (ratio? %)) (rational? %)) 1.5M)

16:28 clojurebot: true

16:28 bbloom: integer? seems to work :-)

16:28 ToBeReplaced: yea integer? sounds good :) thanks

16:30 lynaghk: dnolen_: https://gist.github.com/4004131

16:32 dnolen_: lynaghk: thx, will check it out.

16:33 lynaghk: dnolen_: thank you! If some of those things are terrible ideas definitely let me know---I haven't done enough logicy stuff to get a feel for what is and is not a wise systems decision.

16:35 bbloom: lynaghk: cool stuff :-) i've been thinking about lots of the same kinds of things with respect to declarative UI

16:36 lynaghk: bbloom: it's easy to imagine cool things. Just need to get it workin' now = )

16:36 bbloom: lynaghk: the rewrite rules are kinda cousins with cascading stylesheets....

16:36 lynaghk: bbloom: ehhhhhh...that is not obvious to me.

16:38 bbloom: lynaghk: consider your :fill color property. someone describing a graph could omit some key style information, like fill color, but specify rewrite rules to insert colors later

16:38 lynaghk: bbloom: especially since I don't think the rules are necessarily composable. Having an automagic priority model that worked based on specificity of the match would be cool though

16:39 bbloom: the current implementation renders out to SVG and so user-provided CSS stylesheets are definitely on the table

16:39 bbloom: lynaghk: specificity is only one option for composition

16:41 lynaghk: WPF doesn't have a specificity model. it just has a staged model: 1) core-styles, 2) theme, 3) control-styles, 4) app-styles, 5) animated values

16:41 something like that

16:41 lynaghk: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms745683.aspx

16:42 lynaghk: ah, here it is: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms743230.aspx#listing

16:43 they call it "precedence"

16:44 TimMc: $findarg map % [1 1N 1M 1.5 1/2] [true true false false false]

16:45 lazybot: []

16:45 TimMc: :-(

16:46 bbloom: lynaghk: does that make the connection clearer?

16:47 TimMc: $findarg % 2 3 5

16:48 lazybot: [clojure.core/+ clojure.core/unchecked-add clojure.core/+' clojure.core/unchecked-add-int]

16:54 TimMc: $findarg every? % [1 1.2 1/2] true

16:54 lazybot: []

16:54 TimMc: $findfn 1 true

16:54 lazybot: [clojure.core/== clojure.core/odd? clojure.core/number? clojure.core/integer? clojure.core/distinct? clojure.core/boolean clojure.core/< clojure.core/= clojure.core/> clojure.core/>= clojure.core/<= clojure.core/pos? clojure.core/rational? clojure.core/await-for]

16:55 TimMc: Is findarg just timing out, or what?

16:56 holo: how do i remove these extra parentheses around the map? '('('({})))

16:56 i mean, in an obvious way

16:57 bbloom: holo: huh? those parens are a list

16:57 technomancy: meta-s

16:57 bbloom: ,'()

16:57 S11001001: holo: there's no good answer without more details

16:57 clojurebot: ()

16:57 bbloom: ,''()

16:57 clojurebot: (quote ())

16:57 holo: bbloom, do you know any paretheses that aren't lists in clojure?

16:58 Chousuke: unless you count comments, there aren't any :P

16:58 S11001001: &((juxt identity type) (map identity [1,2,3]))

16:58 lazybot: ⇒ [(1 2 3) clojure.lang.LazySeq]

16:58 TimMc: holo: Are you asking about a value or text in your editor?

16:58 S11001001: &(type '(1,2,3))

16:58 lazybot: ⇒ clojure.lang.PersistentList

16:59 holo: TimMc, it's a value. i'm assuming the number of enclosing lists is unknown

17:00 S11001001, i'm sorry for the ill explained question. i hope it's clear now

17:01 Raynes: (first (filter map? (iterate first l)))

17:01 TimMc: holo: Do you know the difference between '('('({}))) and '((({}))) ?

17:03 S11001001: holo: Raynes's solution is probably what you want, but you really shouldn't end up with any data in that shape ("unknown" recursion without an explicit termination data case is a recipe for destructuring disaster)

17:03 holo: TimMc, no. my verbose example would be (list (list (list {})))

17:04 TimMc: holo: Ah, that is different from what you asked for!

17:05 holo: TimMc, i see. i think your example with just one quote does match the last one i wrote

17:05 Raynes, you're great! thanks

17:06 ivan: http://emareaf.deviantart.com/art/Rich-Hickey-321501046 via GIS

17:07 (trying to find the "it's just data!")

17:07 TimMc: holo: 'foo is (quote foo)

17:07 ivan: Haha, nice.

17:08 holo: S11001001, a query to a database will return me a ({something}) e.g. i think it would be a good idea to not worry the amount of enclosing around the data, and just always apply that function

17:09 TimMc: That sounds like a very bad idea.

17:09 holo: TimMc, that's possible

17:09 S11001001: holo: TimMc merely typed faster than I could.

17:12 TimMc: Aside from weird future bugs, you're going to miss out on patterns in your code that you would later be able to factor out.

17:12 holo: TimMc, this is just for foreign code. that i'm not able or willing to factor

17:14 mpan: Guys, how relevant/useful/necessary do you suppose some of the formal theory is to practically using a functional language?

17:14 TimMc: holo: I'm not sure what you're talking about, but OK.

17:14 Raynes: TimMc: He is saying that this is code that he doesn't control that is giving him the crappy listified result.

17:15 TimMc: Raynes: holo is still writing code, and presumably more than one piece...

17:15 S11001001: holo: ok then, as long as you have some guarantees somewhere

17:15 mpan: quite

17:16 holo: yes, it's like Raynes say. sorry my slow reply

17:17 TimMc: mpan: It's useful, but not essential.

17:40 mpan: I tried to ask this earlier, and I'm not sure if my net connection died right before or right after the message went through. Apologies if I'm being repetitive.

17:40 I'm just wondering, how necessary is it to understand the underlying theory to use a functional language effectively?

17:40 For example, I was reading about fixed point combinators, but I can't imagine how the idea came about or how concrete examples were discovered.

17:49 S11001001: mpan: S11001001: mpan: quite\r\nTimMc: mpan: It's useful, but not essential.

17:50 mpan: Awesome! Thanks!

17:50 technomancy: be sure to read at least Out of the Tarpit and Equal Rights for Functional Objects

17:51 amalloy: mpan: http://lazybot.org/logs/#clojure/

17:51 mpan: Thank you.

17:52 I was looking at a different logger before, but that one seems to be delayed and batched, and it hadn't gotten up to anywhere near the present time

17:52 S11001001: amalloy: in this case, lazybot split from me for a chunk

17:53 amalloy: really? what's different?

17:53 S11001001: (5:19:35 PM) S11001001: lazybot: mail mpan S11001001: mpan: quite\r\nTimMc: mpan: It's useful, but not essential.

17:54 amalloy: ~search for mail

17:54 clojurebot: if you can access the email account that is signed up then you winn

17:54 amalloy: dangit, i don't remember clojurebot's log-search feature. hiredman?

17:54 because i didn't see that message either, S11001001

17:54 mpan: Strange, though, because every one of my TCP connections believed they were still alive

17:54 hiredman: it is disabled

17:54 mpan: I thought they timed out much quicker than that

17:54 (They just didn't work.)

17:55 hiredman: when I moved clojurebot to a t1.micro the oomkiller kept killing elasticsearch (provides the indexing and search)

17:55 jimduey: dnolen_: re: benchmarking core.logic. I haven't yet, but I'm working towards doing that.

17:58 dnolen_: jimduey: cool, curious to hear about that.

18:03 lpvb: what happened to the clojure android effort?

18:04 pisketti: Was there any?

18:04 lpvb: ._.

18:04 mpan: I remember seeing proof-of-concept demos

18:04 jimduey: dnolen_: I'm thinking (hoping :)) to see quite an improvement when using the continuation monad.

18:04 pisketti: lpvb: awesome idea

18:05 Raynes: $google lein-droid

18:05 lazybot: [alexander-yakushev/lein-droid · GitHub] https://github.com/alexander-yakushev/lein-droid

18:06 dnolen_: jimduey: cool! I'm skeptical about the performance of multiple monads in core.logic (I think you alluded to this in your post) but I'm interested in the numbers.

18:44 ticking: Um, are performance improving patcheswelcome to the core? (Factor 3x on partition-by)

18:45 dnolen_: ticking: they are

18:45 lynaghk: ping

18:46 ticking: dnolen_: cool, I assume the requirement to sign the contributors agreement is transitive?

18:48 dnolen_: ticking: you mean had signed for a specific project?

18:50 ticking: dnolen_, no I mean that only the final contributor has to sign it, so that the "author" doesn't

18:51 I think it could take quite a while for the paper to arrive in the usa from germany ^^ a hierarchy would be usefull ^^

18:52 say I'd put the code in public domain or gpl or whatever and somebody else put it into a pull request

18:59 dnolen_: ticking: don't really understand the finer points of EPL style licenses - perhaps someone else can say something about that.

18:59 jonasac: is it possible for clojure or java programs in general i guess to write persistent data to a file inside a jar ?

18:59 ticking: dnolen_ hrhr thanks anyway :D

19:31 lynaghk: dnolen_: pong

19:33 dnolen_: lynaghk: hey, so yeah most of that looks possible - the `or` bit requires some thinking, but doesn't seem hard. honestly the most challenging thing is determining the interface.

19:33 lynaghk: dnolen_: yeah, I thought that was the case. Nothing I'm trying to do is too crazy. I mean, I feel it's not even really logic programming since there is no backwards/generative magic.

19:34 dnolen_: lynaghk: I'm inclined to change prep to take a form + constraints on the vars and perhaps provide some other form for sugar which will allow for some flexiblity for experimentation.

19:35 in anycase I'll try to add the internals for this + some simple demos later next week.

19:35 lynaghk: dnolen_: that makes a lot of sense, but I wonder if that would mean my syntax is impossible.

19:36 dnolen_: I mean, if I wanted to I could have written each rule + constraints within the body of a run and then iterate over them manually.

19:37 dnolen_: lynaghk: no, but I'm not sure if the specific syntax is something core.logic needs to provide. but definitely interested in anything that make it simple to do what you want.

19:38 ,(meta (first '(^foo ?x)))

19:38 clojurebot: {:tag foo}

19:38 lynaghk: dnolen_: yeah, agreed. Basically it comes down to how people can hook into the walk that happens during unification or if they're going to need to walk their stuff themselves first

19:38 dnolen_: lynaghk: prep could look at symbol metadata ...

19:38 ,(meta (first '(^::foo ?x)))

19:38 clojurebot: {:sandbox/foo true}

19:38 lynaghk: dnolen_: which will probably come down to how crazy their syntax is.

19:38 dnolen_: that's actually kind of nice

19:38 ,(meta (first '(^::not-present ?x)))

19:38 clojurebot: {:sandbox/not-present true}

19:39 dnolen_: ,(meta (first '(^::numeric ?x)))

19:39 clojurebot: {:sandbox/numeric true}

19:39 lynaghk: Not all of the constraints are on a single var, though. The not-present constraint, for instance, you can't use because the standard unification will fail

19:40 dnolen_: lynaghk: I got some ideas about this ;) we can do this during prep

19:40 ^::numeric ?x could return a logic+var w/ constraint instead of just a logic var.

19:40 anyways gotta do some other things but I got some ideas

19:41 lynaghk: dnolen_: ahhh. yeah, definitely. Thanks for your thoughts on this

19:41 dnolen_: we can get it all figured out in Raleigh = )

19:41 dnolen_: yes!

19:49 ivan: hope you weren't interested in any of the comments on bugs.sun.com

19:49 https://blogs.oracle.com/darcy/entry/jdk_bug_migration_bugs_sun

19:57 http://www.xmlvm.org/overview/ huh

20:00 bbloom: it's extensible!

20:00 or should i say:

20:00 eXtensible!

20:01 lynaghk: bbloom: sorry for missing your comment earlier. I'd just left the keyboard

20:01 bbloom: lynaghk: no worries

20:01 AtKaaZ: hi, is there some editor/ide which can do refactoring like renaming vars or function names in all relevant places?

20:01 lynaghk: bbloom: leaving again now, but I'll take a look at that stuff later. I'm trying to push out some of this grammar of graphics stuff before I leave for Sweden on Monday, so I'll ping you with info about the alpha if you're interested in kicking the tires.

20:02 bbloom: lynaghk: sure, would be happy to try it out and report back my experiences

20:02 lynaghk: bbloom: rad. Any pref on language? Right now Python, R, JavaScript, and Clojure are the targets.

20:03 bbloom: lynaghk: i assume Clojure would be the easiest initial target, no?

20:03 lynaghk: bbloom: yeah, pretty much because I don't need to dick around with EDN generation = )

20:04 bbloom: though the alpha is very minimal (send spec, get SVG back) so there's not a lot the client libs actually do

20:05 bbloom: lynaghk: do you have a tiny swing app with an SVG renderer? i'd imagine that would be the fastest way to iterate, rather than having to refresh the browser each time

20:06 lynaghk: Also, since everything is a map I'm thinking about just accepting JSON and running data-readers on any maps with a :_tag key. E.g., the EDN #my/record.thing {:a 1} is the same as {"_tag": "my/record.thing", "a" 1}

20:06 bbloom: nah, I have no swing experience. The plots use CSS, so a browser is pretty necessary. I could throw a livereload server in the client though.

20:06 so refreshes would be automatic.

20:06 bbloom: mmm automatic refreshes :-)

20:07 the _tag json thing is a reasonable approach

20:07 keywords and symbols are going to be a real issue for some EDN targets

20:07 lynaghk: okay, I'll consider that feature request #1 for the clj client and see if I can throw it in there later tonight = )

20:08 bbloom: the MRI implementation of ruby, for example, treats every single symbol as a memory leak :-/

20:08 EDN is cool, but i'm not sure how well it will be received, so JSON support is probably wise

20:08 lynaghk: bbloom: yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

20:09 bbloom: but i'm much more interested in the graph-description -> svg step, so clojure-only and no json is enough for me to play with it

20:09 lynaghk: bbloom: anyway, I'm going for a run before the Pacific NW sun completely disappears. I'll email you Sunday with deets.

20:09 bbloom: lynaghk: cool, cya

20:09 lynaghk: bbloom: okay. I am giving a talk on this stuff at Oredev in Sweden next Friday if you're feeling up for a quick Euro trip =P

20:10 bbloom: haha thanks but no thanks

20:10 lynaghk: bbloom: but I will also post slides and writeup next week too.

20:35 AtKaaZ: how to make an empty sorted map ?

20:36 oh i see

20:41 is there something like *file* for lines or current function?

20:44 S11001001: AtKaaZ: no, but it might work to write a macro that asks the metadata on &form

20:44 (defmacro here [] `'~(-> &form meta :line))

20:45 AtKaaZ: depends on the details of operation ordering in Compiler.java though

20:47 AtKaaZ: if you're writing a debugging macro, though, line and current function are pretty useless, as you can pick it up from exceptions anyway. The really useful thing is to write a macro that scribbles out details of &env (which has the current lexical env, e.g. let bindings & fun args

20:48 AtKaaZ: S11001001, that pretty much works like I wanted to, thanks, but I'm not sure what you mean with operation ordering...

20:50 S11001001: AtKaaZ: the times when the Clojure compiler sticks metadata on forms is pretty ad hoc. It should *really* mark forms iteratively, before and between each macroexpansion phase. It's not that simple, though

21:10 AtKaaZ: EPL or AGPL? why?

21:24 xeqi: AtKaaZ: for what?

21:24 AtKaaZ: own clojure projects

21:24 I mean, projects written in clojure

21:26 technomancy: you can't use clojure in GPL'd projects

21:26 xeqi: I choose EPL cause it reduces the license complexity of the ecosystem and for my users

21:26 technomancy: ?

21:26 AtKaaZ: really?

21:26 ivan: technomancy: wait what seriously?

21:26 technomancy: the EPL's patent clause is ironically considered "additional restrictions" by the GPL

21:27 xeqi: ah

21:29 luckily most java gpl projects I've seen use the "classpath exemption"

21:30 technomancy: the GPL with the classpath exception is effectively no different from the EPL afaict

21:31 or the LGPL

21:31 AtKaaZ: "A number of developers have told us that they are prohibited from adding a dependency covered by the AGPL due to the viral nature of the license."

21:32 where I read, it seems EPL is better

21:32 xeqi: for some definition of "better"

21:32 technomancy: the EPL is not very good at doing what the AGPL does

21:32 AtKaaZ: yep xeqi

21:33 "With the EPL, Developers don’t have to worry that a single library will taint an entire server-side application and compel the release of source code." lol

21:36 http://vschart.com/compare/eclipse-public-license/vs/gnu-affero-general-public-license

21:37 seancorfield: as someone who's been thru a software license audit at a large corporation, i can say that licensing is important to such companies ;)

21:37 hughfdjackson: is there a canonical online book for clojure?

21:37 by which i mean.. de-facto, for begineers

21:37 *beginners -.-

21:38 not canonical at all.

21:38 technomancy: hughfdjackson: you mean free?

21:38 hughfdjackson: I don't mind paying, but instant gratification would be nice

21:38 :D

21:38 technomancy: hughfdjackson: hard to beat clojurebook.com

21:38 seancorfield: Clojure Programming would be my recommendation - yes, clojurebook.com

21:38 xeqi: +1 for clojurebook.com

21:39 hughfdjackson: thanks all :)

21:40 seancorfield: and welcome to the clojure universe hughfdjackson

21:42 AtKaaZ: technomancy, so if I want to release my project under AGPL, I can't have it written in clojure ? or I can't dist the uberjar ?

21:43 hughfdjackson: seancorfield: :D thanks. Here's hoping it'll be a refreshing change from battling js' addition to mutable objects

21:45 dnolen_: hughfdjackson: I think there's a lot to like for a JSer. Simple assocative model minus mutability.

21:48 hughfdjackson: dnolen_: basically what piqued my curiousity; it looks similar enough to be (perhaps) the js i wish js was

21:49 out of interest; are you working on that predicate dispatch library anywhere in public? I don't think i saw it on your github

21:50 dnolen_: hughfdjackson: ha, people always ask about that. I do work on it, but in a very slow way via core.logic/match

21:51 xeqi: AtKaaZ: ianal, but I believe you can't distribute the uberjar

21:51 AtKaaZ: xeqi, it makes some sense

21:52 xeqi: or with the agpl even use the combined work across a network

21:52 hughfdjackson: :D fair enough

21:53 AtKaaZ: xeqi, I suppose even if you were to release the project under dual license AGPL and EPL it would still not work?

21:54 Apage43: Then it would basically just be licensed under the EPL

21:54 AtKaaZ: like this project https://github.com/malcolmsparks/clj-logging-config

21:55 xeqi: dual licensing would be fine, everyone would just choose the epl

21:56 Apage43: unless they want to sue you or something, and avoid the patent retaliation language

21:56 AtKaaZ: i hate licenses :/

21:57 xeqi: and hope not to be in conflict with it and get copyright infringment :p

21:57 AtKaaZ: yeah, thats why I just choose the EPL for clojure stuff

21:59 AtKaaZ: xeqi, yeah EPL should do, especially for whatever I program, since nobody will touch with a 10feet pole

21:59 Apage43: both AGPL and EPL have patent grant language (if you contribute patent encumbered code, you are granting a license to that patent), but the EPL has the added restriction that if you sue someone over patent related to an an EPL project you are not able to license that project under the EPL, which is why it is not GPL compatible.

22:01 AtKaaZ: this is a good read: http://briancarper.net/blog/579/keyword-arguments-ruby-clojure-common-lisp%5D

22:28 hughfdjackson: i'd have thought that read-string and pr-str would have been defined at about the same time

22:29 any rhyme or reason to this decision, or just one of those things that happens with code?

22:32 tomoj: well, pr-str's definition makes use of destructuring, which is defined after read-string

22:33 but maybe read-string could have been stuck under there..

22:36 hughfdjackson: :D interesting

22:36 * hughfdjackson didn't realise the language started out without destructuring

22:36 hughfdjackson: although i suppose that makes a lot of sense..

22:39 joegallo: if you want to make a pie from scratch, you must first create the universe, and all that.

22:39 hughfdjackson: mmm sagan pie

22:43 tomoj: every time I didn't put pomegranate on my path and I actually care, I just curse and don't put pomegranate on my path

22:43

22:45 (= (__ [{:foo #{1 2} :bar #{3}} {:foo #{4}} {:bar #{5 6} :baz #{7}}])

22:45 [[:foo #{[1 4 nil] [2 4 nil]}] [:bar #{[3 nil 5] [3 nil 6]}]])

22:45 d'oh

22:47 also

22:47 AtKaaZ: can we def private atom? similar to defn-

22:47 tomoj: (= (__ {:a {:foo #{1 2} :bar #{3}} :b {:foo #{4}} :c {:bar #{5 6} :baz #{7}}})

22:47 [[:foo #{{:a 1 :b 4} {:a 2 :b 4}}] [:bar #{{:a 3 :c 5} {:a 3 :c 6}}]])

22:47

22:48 (def ^:private foo (atom :foo))

22:48 AtKaaZ: oh it's before the symbol

22:48 thanks

22:48 works!

22:49 tomoj: there used to be a def- in contrib but it seems to have disappeared

22:50 personally I don't use defn- anymore, ^:private is nice an clear

22:50 AtKaaZ: I agree

22:50 Raynes: Only time I use defn- is when working with code that uses it already.

22:50 Like Clojure itself.

23:10 lpvb: has anyone done development for windows metro apps or windows phone?

23:10 with clojure

23:32 brainproxy: Sgeo: glad you're doing alright

23:45 AtKaaZ: can we loop recur with first and rest inside a macro [firs & res] , trying to parse all by applying a check on first

23:47 the problem is in the loop let `(loop [xfirst# ~x allrest# ~all] the ~all is evaluate

23:50 if I were to not use the ` should I use eval to evaluate the form inside the macro?

23:54 Sgeo: bradfordw_, thank you

23:54 oops

23:54 brainproxy, thank you

23:59 brainproxy: btw, I've been hacking on the protocol-monads library; implemented a basic mechanism that options lets you check whether the return type of a monadic function matches the type of the monadic value

23:59 Sgeo: ^

23:59 *optionally

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