#clojure log - Apr 13 2012

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0:07 kenneth: so i've narrowed it down

0:07 https://gist.github.com/8df116ff0fbe53eef0a1

0:07 if i replace line 6 with the two lines commented out above, it doesn't work

0:07 can't tell why

0:08 devn: FWIW i dont like using ->> in that context

0:08 (dorun (pmap (map (line-seq (io/reader f ...)))))

0:09 err, you know what i mean

0:12 kenneth: alright let me try it this way

0:12 andyfingerhut: partition is adding a level of nesting that the final map doesn't handle

0:14 sorry, I was confused there for a bit. What do you mean by 'it doesn't work'? The result is different?

0:21 kenneth: hmm, i though i was handling it with the two maps, andyfingerhut

0:21 devn: here, tried it your way, and adding a with-open, https://gist.github.com/df78a51e447c3a7f80bf

0:21 it's still printing nil

0:22 devn: what is printing nil?

0:22 you dont have any (println) calls

0:23 kenneth: devn: i do, process-line printlns

0:23 devn: pasted the whole code, same gist (reload)

0:23 devn: oh, sorry -- saw it was (str ...) earlier

0:23 kenneth: thanks for the help btw, much appreciated

0:24 devn: kenneth: not a problem :)

0:25 kenneth: do you mean to process the file in parallel? or to process lines in parallel?

0:26 kenneth: i want to process the file in parallel, 10 threads at a time

0:27 since there's some blocking i/o on the line processing, running 10 at a time ought to speed up the whole thing a lot

0:30 devn: kenneth: http://meshy.org/code/wf2-faster.clj

0:30 that's pretty ancient, so type hints and so on have changed

0:30 as have the libraries

0:30 jblomo: can i change the Details section of a Jira ticke?

0:31 ticket

0:31 kenneth: devn: i think that's somewhat above my level right now

0:31 :p

0:31 devn: kenneth: i felt the same way, but try to just skim it and look at the recipe

0:33 kenneth: have you timed this without trying to parallelize it?

0:33 are you optimizing prematurely?

0:34 kenneth: i have not timed it, but i don't think it's too premature

0:34 the script is meant to process a 140M line file, and i've run a php version of the script before and it ran almost 10x faster with 10 instances running

0:49 devn: do you have any idea why this works (map process-line (line-seq r)), but this doesn't: (pmap #(map process-line %) (partition 10 (line-seq r)))

0:53 Iceland_jack: kenneth: #(apply map process-line %) ?

1:07 kenneth: Iceland_jack: hmm, could you explain that, i'm not sure i get it

1:09 amalloy: kenneth: i think the reason you don't get it is that it's incorrect

1:09 kenneth: haha

1:10 Iceland_jack: Honest mistake amalloy

1:10 amalloy: anyway, your transformation to pmap looks fine except for the danger of using partition instead of partition-all

1:11 compare ##(partition 2 [1 2 3 4 5]) to ##(partition-all 2 [1 2 3 4 5]) and make sure you're using the one you want

1:11 lazybot: (partition 2 [1 2 3 4 5]) ⇒ ((1 2) (3 4))

1:11 (partition-all 2 [1 2 3 4 5]) ⇒ ((1 2) (3 4) (5))

1:11 amalloy: so at that point i'd ask you what you're doing that makes you think the pmap version doesn't work and the other does

1:11 (it's probably laziness-related though)

1:12 kenneth: amalloy: actually, does partition X create a collection with X collections, or a collection of collections of size X?

1:12 muhoo: wow it's so weird dealing with a java api that has mutable state

1:12 amalloy: &(partition 2 (range 10))

1:12 lazybot: ⇒ ((0 1) (2 3) (4 5) (6 7) (8 9))

1:13 kenneth: oh shit. is there a way to do the opposite? split the collection in 10?

1:13 * muhoo re-reads ztellman's presentation on how to wrap a java library

1:13 kenneth: also, here's what i'm doing: https://gist.github.com/df78a51e447c3a7f80bf

1:13 amalloy: well, one option would be to transpose the partitions: ##(apply map vector (partition 2 (range 10)))

1:13 lazybot: ⇒ ([0 2 4 6 8] [1 3 5 7 9])

1:14 amalloy: that gets them out of order, of course, and has serious issues with incomplete partitions

1:14 kenneth: i see, then that's probably a little dangerous for a lazy partition with 140M items

1:14 amalloy: if i wanted to do this, i'd use https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/seq.clj#L51

1:15 but you can't split into 10 equal-sized pieces lazily, how do you know how big to make the first one?

1:15 kenneth: hmm, good question.

1:16 maybe i'm thinking about this the wrong way

1:17 here's my use case: i'm processing a huge file, and for each line process there's some blocking i/o (database write), so i want to run 10 at a time in parallel

1:18 amalloy: you want seque

1:18 &(doc seque)

1:18 lazybot: ⇒ "([s] [n-or-q s]); Creates a queued seq on another (presumably lazy) seq s. The queued seq will produce a concrete seq in the background, and can get up to n items ahead of the consumer. n-or-q can be an integer n buffer size, or an instance of java.util.concurrent ... https://refheap.com/paste/2072

1:19 amalloy: so i think your function is just (defn process-in-parallel [items] (seque 10 (map process-blocking items)))

1:21 though i wonder how that interacts with the chunkiness of map...

1:21 kenneth: oh, sweet! i think that's what i'm looking for

1:21 mad kudos, amalloy :) you've cracked it i think

1:22 amalloy: yeah, i think that actually doesn't work well because of map chunking though

1:23 kenneth: oh?

1:23 amalloy: i guess line-seq probably doesn't produce a chunked sequence, so you're fine

1:24 yeah

1:24 kenneth: so unrelated question: when i run `leon run` and it's done processing, it doesn't exit

1:24 do i need to add some kind of exit statement at the end of my -main function?

1:24 amalloy: $google lein shutdown-agents threadpool

1:24 lazybot: [Issue #455: Shutdown agents after repl is disconnected ...] https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/455

1:25 amalloy: well, i was looking for http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8695808/clojure-program-not-exiting-when-finishing-last-statement

1:36 jblomo: ahh thank you technomancy for a repl that works after being backgrounded :)

2:16 aperiodic: muhoo: got a link for that presentation?

2:22 is this is his strangeloop talk?

2:25 ibdknox: it was his ClojureWest talk

2:26 aperiodic: is that up?

2:26 i've been kicking myself for missing that since lynaghk told me about it

4:02 xumingmingv: a simple question, what type of thing is the *Exception* in a try/catch? https://gist.github.com/2374971

4:02 not a type hint, right?

4:11 samaaron: xumingmingv: I think it's just a java class

4:12 xumingmingv: a java class in clojure? seems not so clojure..

4:14 samaaron: xumingmingv: Clojure is a parasitic language - it needs a host, and talking directly to the host language is idiomatic

4:17 Chousuke: You should call it symbiotic rather than parasitic :P

4:17 xumingmingv: samaaron: ah, thanks. is there any other similar usage? because i see type hint a lot, like ^Exception, but directly use Exception seems rare.

4:18 samaaron: xumingmingv: I think it's a fairly special case

4:18 Chousuke: xumingmingv: the exception class is just part of catch syntax

4:19 you have to specify what exceptions (or throwables) you want to catch

4:19 a type hint just tells the compiler what class you expect a value to be, so that reflection can be avoided

4:21 aperiodic: samaaron: ping

4:21 xumingmingv: Chousuke: thanks

4:22 samaaron: aperiodic: pong

4:24 aperiodic: so, i tried the quil 1.0.0 release, and it didn't solve that weird def/defn problem i was having

4:25 samaaron: aperiodic: ok, shame - so remind me about the issue

4:25 aperiodic: samaaron: it's summed up in the gist: https://gist.github.com/2341911

4:26 in one line, once i instantiate this java class, nothing i def/defn in the namespace can be cast to the core language interfaces

4:27 i am rewriting that processing library to make it more palatable to use in clojure, and that'll remove the weird reflection stuff that it currently does to the applet that it's passed

4:28 which might solve this issue, but i don't know

4:28 samaaron: yeah, i'm staring at the code right now

4:31 aperiodic: my current plan is basically just "wow, that's a weird exception i don't understand, maybe if i remove this reflection stuff i don't understand either, everything will be better?"

4:32 so i was hoping you might have some sort of clue as to why this is happening, cause i don't :)

4:37 samaaron: aperiodic: not that it helps, but i might restructure your code like this: https://refheap.com/paste/2075

4:38 aperiodic: oh, that is handy

4:39 (set-state!, that is)

4:39 samaaron: so I wonder what SimpleOpenNI does to the applet

4:39 aperiodic: yeah, set-state! adds applet-specific state

4:39 you can only call it once though :-)

4:41 aperiodic: heh, fair enough

4:42 the source for that SimpleOpenNI class is here: https://code.google.com/p/simple-openni/source/browse/trunk/SimpleOpenNI/src/p5_src/SimpleOpenNI.java

4:43 the part that is unfamiliar to me is the stuff going on in getMethodRef, but it's not obvious to me why that would cause the cast exceptions

4:45 clgv: "quil kinect" sounds interesting

4:46 amalloy: aperiodic: to me it sounds like that class is probably mucking up your classloader somehow

4:46 but i don't really know anything about a cause or a solution to that problem

4:47 you could probably verify by doing something like printing (.getClassLoader clojure.lang.IDeref) before and after the thing that breaks it

4:47 aperiodic: clgv: it's up on github (https://github.com/aperiodic/quil-kinect), but unfortunately right now you can only get the depth image out

4:48 oh man, classloaders, i've heard about these

4:49 clgv: classloaders are mysterious fun when using some javalibs ^^

4:49 amalloy: they are deep magic. hopefully that's not the real problem

4:50 samaaron: aperiodic: sorry but i'm way out of my depth here - the code you've written seems good to me, but clearly the kinect lib must be doing some strange futzing

4:51 aperiodic: samaaron: no worries! thanks for giving it the look-see

4:52 yeah, i'd always that i wouldn't run into a classloader issue, since that's farther down the rabbit hole than i think i want to be

4:52 let me see if that's actually the case here

4:52 s/always/always hoped/

4:57 clgv: aperiodic: what's the exception you encounter?

4:58 aperiodic: clgv: https://gist.github.com/2341911

4:59 clgv: aperiodic: wow thats weird

5:00 aperiodic: yeah, so it's the same classloader before and after the thing that breaks it happens

5:00 clgv: right?

5:00 that's why i've been bugging sam to take a look at it for the past few days. i'm clueless.

5:01 clgv: aperiodic: as to classloaders - is the (-> (Thread/currentThread) .getContextClassLoader) still Clojure's DynamicClassLoader after importing?

5:02 you can also check if there are uncommon changes to the classloader hierarchy via .getParent

5:03 aperiodic: the only thing that gets executed when loading should be that static-block

5:05 aperiodic: so the classloader is always "#<AppClassLoader sun.misc.Launcher$AppClassLoader@535ff48b>"

5:05 clgv: in your Clojure repl?

5:05 aperiodic: in the slimv buffer, yeah

5:05 even when i don't import

5:05 which seems... impossible

5:06 clgv: in "lein repl" and CCWs repl I get Clojure's DynamicClassLoader

5:07 aperiodic: i blame my not knowing how to use swank well at all

5:07 i launched a lein repl and have the dynamic classloader

5:07 now to import the class

5:07 clgv: and the bug as well?

5:10 aperiodic: the classloader appears to be switched after the import, but before the functions in my namespace are called by quil

5:11 i printed out the classloader in a top-level statement, and then before and after instantiating a SimpleOpenNI object

5:11 only the top-level statement prints out the dynamic class-loader

5:12 clgv: so it breaks afte the constructor of the SimpleOpenNI?

5:12 aperiodic: no

5:12 it's already broken by that point

5:13 clgv: System.loadLibrary shouldnt break anything, I would guess

5:13 aperiodic: well, i wonder if it's an interaction with anything quil might be doing in, say, defsketch

5:14 wei_: what's the good way to dynamically bind based on the value of a var? e.g. (binding [(symbol test-type "config") my-config] (do stuff))

5:14 that ^ gives me PersistentList cannot be cast to Symbol

5:15 is it because binding is a macro?

5:15 clgv: wei_: yeah. and it expects a symbol or destructuring form there

5:18 aperiodic: clgv: this is what i'm seeing now: https://gist.github.com/2375349

5:22 ibdknox: Video is recorded, blog post is written. Light Table will be making its debut tomorrow :)

5:23 wei_: would it be better to use a dynamic var for that? *config*?

5:24 clgv: aperiodic: hmmm. (setup) is called from within the quil-applet, so I think the AppClassLoader can be expected since its the one of the applet - but that is my limited knowledge about classloaders guessing here

5:24 or is it different without the import?

5:26 aperiodic: it's still the AppClassLoader without the import

5:27 so is processing's classloader is stomping all over clojure's?

5:27 clgv: then it's probably not the spot to investigate

5:28 aperiodic: ok

5:28 huh

5:29 clgv: oh. you are printing the ClassLoader of clojure.lang.IDeref not the one of the current thread inside (setup)

5:29 the one of IDeref won't change

5:31 senthil: just learned about clojurescript, seems interesting

5:32 is it just a fun side project of clojure?

5:33 clgv: senthil: no it is maintained by the clojure team on github

5:34 aperiodic: clgv: if i print the current classloader, it's always the dynamic one, regardless of whether the class has been imported or the constructor has been called

5:35 it definitely seems like the constructor is the cause, since if i omit it, then the class cast exception does go away

5:35 senthil: clgv: how would you rate its popularity? (i'm new to clojure and want a benchmark)

5:36 clgv: senthil: there are often development questions about it here but the project itself claims it's in an alpha stage

5:37 ibdknox: it's gaining a lot of steam

5:37 twem2: there is quite a buzz around clojurescript

5:37 aperiodic: clgv: i should go to sleep, though. thanks for your suggestions; i hope i can bug you about this later, if it's still an issue after i remove everything that looks fishy from the constructor

5:38 * aperiodic knows *nothing* about all this classloader stuff

5:38 clgv: aperiodic: good luck. combination of quil with kinect sounds interesting

5:40 aperiodic: yeah, i'd really like to get this working, since processing is pretty much the only code i wrote that's not clojure these days

6:01 mccraig: cemerick: i've got a case in friend i would like to behave differently : wondering about your favoured approach : i'm using interactive-form workflow, but i would like ::friend/redirect-on-auth? meta to be set false afterwards, so the handler gets called

6:02 i'm happy to do a pull-request… maybe modify interactive-form workflow to take more config if that works for you ?

6:32 senthil: clgv: ah

6:33 clgv: thx!

6:33 clgv: senthil: and like ibdknox said ;)

6:33 Fullmoon: Am I overlooking something, or are there no named captures in clojure regular expressions? Would be lovely with deconstruction

6:34 clgv: Fullmoon: Clojure's regular expression are implemented via Java's

6:38 Fullmoon: I see... hm... then, is it possible to create a map from a vector with restructuring? Let's say a re function returns the triplet ["k=v" "k" "v"], and I want to create {k: v} via restructuring, doesn't seem to be able easily, right?

6:41 clgv: Fullmoon: there is zipmap ##(doc zipmap)

6:41 lazybot: ⇒ "([keys vals]); Returns a map with the keys mapped to the corresponding vals."

6:42 clgv: Fullmoon: e.g. (zipmap [:kv :k :v] (re-find ...))

6:56 Fullmoon: clgv: Nice!

6:58 mccraig: cemerick: did it that way. pull request in the post

7:08 dsabanin: hi guys

7:08 I wonder what's the best and the simplest way to put clojure app in production?

7:09 I tried nohup lein trampoline run & but for some reason my noir app stops right away once I do that

7:20 samaaron: ls

7:45 cemerick: mccraig: thanks, comment added

7:55 mccraig: cemerick: oops, sorry: sent u a new pull-request

8:35 gfredericks: jure

9:50 huangjs: any chance that I can use swank with clojurescript?

10:12 Borkdude: I was wondering about macro's, is this one "idiomatic" Clojure? https://gist.github.com/2377114

10:15 fliebel: Borkdude: Looks fine, although I always forget what stuff like ~' does.

10:16 Borkdude: fliebel: I want literaly the symbol args, and not a qualified symbol

10:16 fliebel: Maybe that should be a gensym instead? I forgot the syntax for that too, I think it's symbol#

10:16 Borkdude: fliebel, yes how?

10:16 fliebel: &`(foo bar#)

10:16 lazybot: ⇒ (clojure.core/foo bar__6687__auto__)

10:17 Borkdude: ah tnx

10:17 https://gist.github.com/2377114

10:18 fliebel: Borkdude: Why define an adder in the first place??

10:18 lazybot: fliebel: What are you, crazy? Of course not!

10:18 Borkdude: fliebel: good question, I just want an example of a customly defined macro, instead of showing one that's already present in clojure

10:18 fliebel: to show to students, but I can't think of a good example right now

10:18 fdaoud: define an adder?

10:18 fliebel: Borkdude: If you want to over-engineer things, you should first define adder as a function, and the def-adder as a macro.

10:19 * fdaoud wonders what triggered lazybot

10:19 fliebel: I don't know, maybe??

10:19 lazybot: fliebel: What are you, crazy? Of course not!

10:19 Borkdude: fliebel: don't undestand your suggestion

10:19 fdaoud: anything with two question marks??

10:19 lazybot: fdaoud: What are you, crazy? Of course not!

10:19 Borkdude: ??

10:19 lazybot: Borkdude: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?

10:20 Borkdude: fliebel: Any suggestions for a different macro that is not too difficult to understand, welcome.

10:23 fliebel: Borkdude: I improved that for you :D https://gist.github.com/2377174

10:24 Borkdude: I think some control flow is very powerful.

10:25 Fullmoon: What is the function that returns for (1 2 3) (a b c) all combinations? I mean 1a 1b 1c 2a 2b 2c.. ?

10:26 fliebel: Fullmoon: Woudl a for loop do? ##(for [l '[a b c] n [1 2 3]] (str l n))

10:26 lazybot: ⇒ ("a1" "a2" "a3" "b1" "b2" "b3" "c1" "c2" "c3")

10:26 pbalduino: morning

10:28 Borkdude: fliebel: tnx.

10:28 Fullmoon: fliebel: Sure, but I could swear that there was a function that did just that.. or was that in Haskell perhaps.. hm

10:28 Borkdude: fliebel: what about this one, https://gist.github.com/2377228

10:28 fliebel: Borkdude: nice...

10:29 Fullmoon: Maybe it was called permuations, and lived in contrib.

10:29 jkkramer: Fullmoon: there's https://github.com/clojure/math.combinatorics

10:29 babilen: Fullmoon: Something like lazy-cross from https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/seq.clj ?

10:29 Fullmoon: (or just cross if you don't need lazyness)

10:30 Fullmoon: Ah interesting, thanks

10:30 fliebel: Borkdude: You could go full ruby style. There was this aprils fool joke, with had all these different if statements, to read like english.

10:31 TimMc: never go full ruby

10:32 S11001001: a version of let that provides setq for each binding

10:33 fliebel: TimMc: As an example of how to define things like whenever and notwithstanding in Clojure ;)

10:33 Borkdude: fliebel: do you have a link?

10:33 fliebel: $doc setq

10:33 Borkdude: I'm googling. Was on HN.

10:34 S11001001: fliebel: http://www.xach.com/clhs?q=setq

10:36 fliebel: Borkdude: Found! http://nathan.ca/2012/04/introducing-sdfry-the-modern-programming-language/

10:37 Borkdude: fliebel: tnx :)

10:38 fliebel: (assuming (= 1 2) (+ 2 2)) => ???

10:38 lazybot: fliebel: How could that be wrong?

10:40 pbalduino: fliebel: have you any code sample of this sdfry?

10:40 fdaoud: I guess lazybot doesn't like multiple question marks, right??

10:40 lazybot: fdaoud: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?

10:41 fliebel: pbalduino: Look at the publishing dat

10:41 timvisher: hey folks

10:41 pbalduino: fliebel: thx ;-)

10:42 timvisher: could anyone point me to why the haskell folks consider full currying vs. partial applicability to be important?

10:43 fliebel: Borkdude: You could implement prolog! (def foo 2) (def foo 3) => No

10:44 Borkdude: fliebel: haha, then I would first have to explain prolog to them

10:45 fliebel: Borkdude: Prolog is just a programming language that talks back to you, and has a soul.

10:45 Borkdude: logic doesn't have soul

10:46 fliebel: Borkdude: Then how do we explain that robots in storage stand together, instead of where we left them? ;)

10:46 Borkdude: fliebel: lol

10:46 fliebel: maybe because of magnetic forces?

10:47 clgv: fliebel: "I Robot"? ;)

10:47 S11001001: timvisher: because point-free programming is cool, and calling partial over and over is tedious

10:48 Borkdude: fliebel: clgc I actually have that Asimov book here, but I never read it

10:48 fliebel: Can someone point me to the difference between the two itseld?

10:53 ah http://stackoverflow.com/questions/218025/what-is-the-difference-between-currying-and-partial-application

10:54 Hey, that'd be nice for a macro. exploding a function to pieces, and the stick it back together again.

11:03 ibdknox: And here it is! http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/04/12/light-table---a-new-ide-concept/

11:04 TimMc: Blah, can't play the video.

11:04 ibdknox: aw

11:04 that's the best part!

11:04 TimMc: Not your fault, Adobe's.

11:05 ibdknox: ah

11:05 Can a few kind souls vote the HN post up from here: http://news.ycombinator.com/newest

11:05 I have it on good authority what activates the voting ring nonsense is the direct link

11:05 TimMc: I added lots of pictures!

11:05 TimMc: does youtube work for you? I uploaded it there too

11:06 fliebel: Borkdude: https://gist.github.com/2377464

11:09 pandeiro: ibdknox: is there a crate/jayq syntax that lets me create and bind html elements at the same time?

11:09 ibdknox: (crate/html ...)

11:09 TimMc: I figured out the vimeo link (http://vimeo.com/40281991) but it wants me to log in to download...

11:10 Borkdude: ibdknox: I vote

11:10 d

11:10 ibdknox: thanks :)

11:10 TimMc: youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H58-n7uldoU

11:10 pandeiro: ibdknox: sorry those will be DOM elements though right? no way to have them as jq selectors?

11:10 Borkdude: fliebel: cool

11:11 ibdknox: pandeiro: not sure I understand

11:11 TimMc: fwiw, everything I cover in the video is in the post too I think

11:11 Borkdude: ibdknox: it already made its way in to the @newsycombinator twitter account

11:11 pandeiro: ibdknox: me neither :)

11:11 sorry let me get my throughts straight

11:12 Borkdude: gotta go, bye folks

11:13 scriptor: hah, I was just about to paste the light table link

11:13 jimduey: ibdknox: Nice work on light table. Having a fn be the smallest unit of code rather than files is something I've wanted for a long time.

11:14 clgv: ibdknox: ah you carried on the ideas of code bubbles. interesting

11:14 ibdknox: jimduey: we built code bubbles for VS over a weekend

11:14 people were mostly uninterested at MS

11:14 jimduey: You did code bubbles? I thought that was a great idea.

11:14 ibdknox: they saw value in the debugging case, but not much else

11:14 ah, no some guy from brown did the original in Eclipse

11:15 the day after it came out, I got a few of our devs together and made it happen for VS :)

11:15 clgv: ibdknox: is that "Light Table" running in a browser for ClojureScript only?

11:15 ibdknox: that was a neat little project

11:15 clgv: actually it's JVM clojure

11:15 scriptor: damn, the real-time evaluation think seems really slick

11:16 TimMc: ibdknox: thanks

11:16 clgv: ibdknox: but the rendered game is cljs?

11:16 ibdknox: clgv: ah yeah

11:17 TimMc: didn't you post stuff on reddit last time?

11:17 TimMc: yeah

11:17 clgv: ibdknox: you have the running demo as a github project, I guess?

11:17 ibdknox: clgv: I haven't released the code

11:17 I'm not sure what to do about it quite yet

11:18 my prototype is decently robust, but it has a lot of rough edges and isn't necessarily that useful in practice (it doesn't even let you save :)

11:18 clgv: ibdknox: oh ok. a live testing would have been great ;)

11:18 timvisher: S11001001: recommend anything i could read on point-free programming?

11:18 ibdknox: clgv: I agree, unfortunately, trying to put that on the internet would be a disaster ;)

11:19 clgv: ibdknox: maybe in some months ;)=

11:19 TimMc: ibdknox: Yes, and I'll probably post this one as well unless someone beats me to it.

11:19 ibdknox: TimMc: as you are far more familiar there, should you believe it merit's it - feel free to plop it on there :)

11:20 timvisher: Raynes: should tryclj.com be down?

11:21 jsabeaudry: Is there a way to have an incremental "lein uberjar" so that not everything is recompiled everytime when only 1 file changed?

11:23 S11001001: timvisher: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Pointfree

11:23 ibdknox: lol: 880 people on the site right now

11:24 TimMc: ibdknox: It's more a matter of my internet connection and reddit both being up at the same time. :-(

11:25 ibdknox: TimMc: haha

11:25 the differences between HN and reddit traffic are interesting

11:25 scriptor: TimMc: tried http://www.downforeveryone.com/?

11:28 timvisher: S11001001: thanks!

11:30 scriptor: wait, is the light table demo up anywhere?

11:31 ibdknox: scriptor: couldn't put it up as a website, the world would've destroyed that server in seconds

11:32 plus the real-time bit of it sucks with latency

11:32 scriptor: ah, cool

11:33 hhutch: ibdknox: this is very very cool

11:35 ibdknox: hhutch: :)

11:37 in its completed state it would address the "getting an env set up for Clojure" issue nicely

11:37 you'd just download a jar, run it, and open a browser

11:39 scriptor: ibdknox: have you thought about how lein/cake integration would work?

11:39 ibdknox: I don't think you'd need to do anything special really :)

11:40 hhutch: ibdknox: so it is clj->cljs stack, I can't wait to play with it :)

11:40 ibdknox: I would just use lein like I do with vim

11:40 there are lots of things I didn't talk about in that post/video though

11:40 scriptor: you're a vimclojure user?

11:40 ibdknox: like the idea of having access to all of the projects on your machine

11:40 scriptor: yessir

11:42 Bronsa: ibdknox light table seems insananely cool.

11:42 *insanely

11:45 TimMc: Bronsa: insananananananana

11:46 ibdknox: lol

11:46 Bronsa: lol

11:48 dnolen: ibdknox: impressive!

11:49 ibdknox: :)

11:52 pbostrom: ibdknox, I'll add to the chorus that this is indeed awesome. You're a pretty prolific dev, just curious, when do you find time to get all this stuff done? 20% time at work? nights and weekends?

11:54 TimMc: ibdknox: Got a question for you over on the reddit page: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/s80qs/_/

11:54 scriptor: time machine

11:54 ibdknox: TimMc: just answered :)

11:54 TimMc: That fast!

11:55 ibdknox: pbostrom: it was nights and weekends until fairly recently :)

11:59 wow

12:00 dnolen: ibdknox: ?

12:00 ibdknox: 200+ points in an hour - didn't expect that

12:01 lynaghk: ibdknox: if you think that's a lot of points, you should try pinball =P

12:01 ibdknox: hahaha

12:01 I *love* pinball

12:02 dnolen: ibdknox: haha, it's a pretty sick video - definitely something that resonates - our tools could be way better.

12:02 autodidakto: Oooo, ooo, wutcha playin?

12:02 * cduffy is briefly reminded of the broken left flipper on his office's Star Trek pinball machine :(

12:02 devn: ibdknox: i want light table. i want it so bad.

12:03 ibdknox: awesome work man.

12:03 hoeck1: and the top comment is of course: 'the smalltalk guys did this stuff back in the 80ties'

12:03 scriptor: of course

12:03 autodidakto: That's what she said

12:03 scriptor: I guess this is how normal programmers feel when the top comment is about lisp doing it already

12:04 hoeck1: I'm wondering if such environments will succeed this time (hoping so)

12:04 dnolen: hoeck1: sometimes it takes a long time for old ideas to really catch on.

12:04 hoeck1: at JSConf I presented right before Dan Ingalls. It was a Lisp Smalltalk double whammy.

12:04 autodidakto: dnolen: link!

12:05 dnolen: autodidakto: whenever JSConf releases the videos

12:05 autodidakto: gotcha

12:05 hoeck1: dnolen: maybe, also the hardware is way better now than 20 years ago, big screens and such

12:06 dnolen: hoeck1: heh, that too. GCs come a long way, people actually know how to make dynamic languages fast at runtime, etc.

12:07 ibdknox: we needed a lot of things to happen before something like this could come into being and actually catch on, I think

12:07 we needed more programmers and bigger programs, for one thing

12:08 scriptor: would this eventually be a stand-alone editor or be integrated into existing stuff?

12:08 hoeck1: ibdknox: would you use a lib to render clojure datastructures directly to html, for example in order to render the code in lighttable?

12:09 If shuch a thing would exist?

12:09 lynaghk: ibdknox: I think there's a lot of value for something like LightBox in just debugging and exploring other people's code. When I was diving into core.logic a while back I would have loved to just see a visual trace of the execution paths and values.

12:09 autodidakto: dnolen: which video were you talking about just now?

12:09 ibdknox: scriptor: I'm not sure how it could be integrated, putting it *in* something kind of defeats the point

12:09 hoeck1: not sure I understand, like to show results?

12:10 I have a little ipad prototype that lets you drag things around and code - it does something sort of like that

12:10 dnolen: autodidakto: my Lisp presentation at JSConf, and Dan Ingall's far, far superior one on Lively Kernel.

12:10 scriptor: true, I was trying to think of any editor that could let you completely change its behavior like that

12:10 ibdknox: lynaghk: totally

12:10 muhoo: is "lein cljsbuild auto" required in order to use cljs-template built projects?

12:10 ibdknox: muhoo: no

12:10 devn: ibdknox: everyone in the office is saying "minority report"

12:11 i dont want that necessarily, but fwiw, that seems to be a common response to seeing it

12:11 dnolen: lynaghk: one dream I've had for a long time - a tracer that can graphically show the core.logic search nodes. Mozart/Oz has this.

12:12 lynaghk: dnolen: the thing that scared me away from that project is getting the data/internals. If we can figure out a nice way to do that for core.logic traces or general clojure execution debugging, I'd be happy to kick together some UIs.

12:12 ibdknox: devn: haha, a bit :)

12:13 dnolen: lynaghk: that would be beautiful.

12:13 hoeck1: ibdknox: http://pastehtml.com/view/bun1zr4o7.html

12:13 dnolen: lynaghk: I just need to think some about how to get the hooks in there.

12:14 lynaghk: dnolen: Sure. Maybe in a month I'll take a week or two off and go on holiday somewhere to hack on funsies projects only.

12:14 hoeck1: ibdknox: needs more work, currently a dead and unreleased project

12:14 ibdknox: gah

12:14 does anyone remember how to make lists in HN markup?

12:14 I seem to have done it wrong

12:14 lol

12:15 * ibdknox can build an ide prototype in 5 days, but can't format a list :p

12:16 wink: wow,

12:16 that looks ace

12:20 cemerick: ibdknox: nice presentation :-)

12:21 ibdknox: cemerick: you should've seen me, I was doing the voiceovers and at the very end iMovie adjusted all my clip lengths - I didn't notice until about halfway through. Not a happy camper. Hopefully I don't sound angry in the last few clips lol

12:22 lynaghk: ibdknox: have you tried ScreenFlow?

12:22 cemerick: ibdknox: seriously, screenflow :-)

12:22 lynaghk: It's $100, but it's an AWESOME piece of screencasting software

12:22 ibdknox: I haven't

12:22 oh

12:22 hm

12:22 might need to look into that then

12:22 lynaghk: and since you're killing it on HN every few weeks now, might be worth it

12:23 cemerick: ibdknox: does lighttable mean I'm 5 days further away from medical record salvation? ;-)

12:25 ibdknox: cemerick: yeah... got distracted. Though for good reason - needed some time to think. A YC company magically appeared doing the same thing, so had to figure out what course corrections needed to happen :)

12:25 cemerick: Huh. Well, don't be swayed just by the brand.

12:26 ibdknox: not at all

12:26 the problem is they have a serious head start

12:26 I think I've come up with a clever way to win though :)

12:26 Same problem, just a different way to get there

12:26 cemerick: good :-)

12:27 * cduffy watches through the intro to Light Table on vimeo and... wow.

12:29 ibdknox: lol I was actually worried I didn't do a good job selling it

12:30 in the video at least

12:30 I kind of glossed over the last bit, which I think is by far the most interesting

12:31 dnolen: ibdknox: you could probably do a KickStarter for LightTable and retire.

12:31 ibdknox: lol

12:31 RickInGA: ibdknox: don't listen to dnolen, you should never retire, just keep building things for the rest of us to use

12:31 wink: only if it's not clojure-only though :P

12:31 ibdknox: I thought about it, but I'm not sure. What people don't know (and probably isn't that apparent) is that implementation isn't necessarily that interesting to me

12:32 wink: I'd build it for JS

12:32 wink: :(

12:32 ibdknox: that's easily worth millions done correctly - VS was a billion dollar business :)

12:32 wink: ok, JS means money, but doesn't make me happy :P

12:32 ibdknox: haha

12:32 me neither :p

12:32 I'm really a designer by trade

12:33 wink: ibdknox: you just reused noir's CSS, right? :P

12:33 lynaghk: ibdknox: your coding hobby seems to be working out

12:33 ibdknox: not graphic, but in general - the design of things, whether they be code, interfaces, products, whatever

12:33 that's what's interesting to me

12:33 wink: every damn time ;)

12:34 wink: unique enough to instantly recognize it

12:34 lynaghk: ibdknox: have you met Bret Victor? That was the impression I got from reading his stuff, Magic Ink in particular. That's up there with Tufte, in my book.

12:34 muhoo: ibdknox: if you don't like implementation, there's enough money in this for you to hire a team to do that part

12:35 ibdknox: lynaghk: I haven't, though I probably should. I think he's the closest example to a person I'd like to be like

12:35 it's one of the reasons I want to make sure I end up at StrangeLoop

12:35 muhoo: but then you'd be stuck doing icky business crap, not necessarily fun.

12:36 lynaghk: ibdknox: yeah, I feel similarly. We'll have to get him to spill the beans on all the secret cool stuff he must have worked on in Apple R&D.

12:36 ibdknox: yeah :D

12:37 wkmanire: ibdknox: I'm watching your presentation. Neat ideas.

12:37 cemerick: muhoo: the business crap *is* the fun part a lot of the time for some of us ;-)

12:38 wkmanire: ibdknox: I'm always hesitant to mess with new IDEs because I'm addicted to emacs keybindings. Namely for movement, "copy and paste", deleting lines etc...

12:38 dnolen: ibdknox: you should definitely try to get into StrangeLoop, I wouldn't sell your talk as ClojureScript specific. I think you have a lot to say - Clojure/Script just made implementing it easy (though that's worth mentioning)

12:38 wkmanire: ibdknox: Even IDEs that have emacs keybindings always fall short in that regard, for me at least.

12:39 muhoo: cemerick: it takes a special kind of person to actually enjoy dealing with vc's, making pitches, managing people, dealing with accounting stuff, hiring, interviewing, dealing with lawyers, dealing with the press, etc.

12:40 dnolen: ibdknox: ahaha https://twitter.com/tlberglund/status/190839949921234944

12:40 RickInGA: ibdknox: does light table do macro expansion?

12:40 lynaghk: muhoo: that's *startup* crap. Good business is just meeting people, convincing them you can solve their problems, and then high fiving and taking their money

12:40 RickInGA: dnolen: haha

12:41 rickbeerendonk: lynaghk is right :)

12:41 muhoo: lynaghk: true, but if you were starting up a company to make a new ide, that'd be your life for 5 years or so

12:42 ibdknox: dnolen: lolol

12:42 muhoo: or more if it succeeds

12:46 ibdknox: RickInGA: not a visual of it, though it could be added in

12:46 I haven't decided what I'm going to do with this yet, but if I ultimately carried it forward, I'd write it in such a way that new elements for the canvas could be really easily added

12:47 there's lots I didn't talk about in that post and they'd require some interesting extensibility mechanisms to make them possible

12:50 pandeiro: ibdknox: do you use any additional abstraction on top of jayq/js for custom events?

12:50 ibdknox: nope

12:51 pandeiro: so your webapps follow the controller-less noir approach?

12:51 sorry i mean client-side apps

12:55 ibdknox: yeah, I mostly use statemachines and such

12:56 mrb_bk: dnolen: fucking with cljs today

12:56 dnolen: mrb_bk: sweet!

12:57 mrb_bk: dnolen: yeah it's "hack day" here, playing with a client side parser for a quick NLP experiment

12:57 dnolen: mrb_bk: nice, it's still pretty wild west - you're a brave soul.

12:58 mrb_bk: dnolen: i ain't scurred

12:59 actually i'm a little scurred

13:00 dnolen: mrb_bk: ha, thought so.

13:00 RickInGA: ibdknox: sorry for slow response, 2 yr. old nephew visiting the office today... re:macro expasion, I was thinking of your function that showed the functions that were called and the values they were passed, might apply to macros too

13:00 gfredericks: my group is having spooki issues with the compiler crashing while trying to read input files

13:00 ibdknox: RickInGA: totally could make it happen

13:02 pandeiro: ibdknox: i think the answer to my unclear questions earlier about crate/jayq lies in jayq.core/->selector ... hadn't really understood that until now, that's why i was doing weird things with partials and on/delegate/etc

13:12 sadger: hello clojarians or whatever the term is. I'm trying to get started with clojure and vim any suggestions the best way to integrate with using a repl, i tried some clojure-vim plugins that use the nailgun server but they seem a little outdated especially when using the contrib since it has been split up

13:19 dnolen: sadger: there's a few VIM users have you looked at the getting started confluence pages for vim?

13:19 sattvik: sadger: Well, there are two major options: VimClojure, which uses nailgun and is maintained, and SLIMV, which uses the same swank-clojure back-end as does Emacs.

13:20 sadger: do you have a link dnolen ?

13:21 dnolen: sadger: http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+with+Vim, comments seem informative

13:21 sadger: thank you

13:22 perhaps my issue was not with the nailgun server but how I can use the latest contrib with nailgun

13:22 dnolen: ibdknox: it looks like you're well on way to doubling your HN karma w/in 24 hours ;)

13:22 sadger: from what I understand you add the jars to the classpath of the nailgun server and it can then use them in the repl

13:22 ibdknox: lol

13:23 wkmanire: How can I pull the doc string of a function from the REPL?

13:23 dnolen: sadger: sadly can't offer more help - I used Emacs & Sublime Text 2 for my Clojuring.

13:23 sattvik: sadger: Are you using Leiningen? That's probably the easiest way to deal with the classpath issues.

13:23 ibdknox: dnolen: I'm still surprised to be honest - I figured people would see Clojure and be like "meh, doesn't work for me"

13:23 sadger: dnolen: emacs is the devil! ha ha, thanks anyway

13:24 ibdknox: sadger: https://github.com/ibdknox/lein-nailgun

13:24 sadger: sattvik: Not at the moment, I think I used an old way to install clojure, just run the jar etc, so then nailgun didnt work because of that

13:24 ibdknox: sadger: run that in any leiningen project, it will include all your classpath and such for you

13:24 and you'll be good to go

13:24 wkmanire: nvm

13:24 doc

13:24 jkrueger: i have successfully migrated people to emacs with one of the vi modes

13:25 sadger: right ok I will have a look at this later on this evening, appreciate your help guys

13:25 jkrueger: vi mode isn't vim though!

13:25 ibdknox: For those interested, there have been approximately 17,000 uniques to the site. Hovering at a constant 850 +/- 50 people since I posted it

13:25 it has been a little over 2 hours

13:25 RickInGA: sadger: all clojure getting started instructions should begin "install leiningen"

13:26 sadger: RickInGA: I will probably learn that shortly, from what I gather it just used to be run from the jar

13:26 dnolen: ibdknox: nice. btw, if we can get this column stuff into 1.5, we should push to adapt the CLJS analyzer for that and make it a real stand alone contrib lib.

13:26 sadger: But appreciate the help guys I will go make some dinner and be back and fix it perhaps :)

13:27 sattvik: ibdknox: Is that the best/most maintained version of lein-nailgun? It's actually kind of confusing to figure out which version is the one to use.

13:27 ibdknox: dnolen: I agree, I didn't want to take the time to do that quite yet, but absolutely. We'd need to change a couple things (the names of functions have . prepended)

13:27 sattvik: I use Clojure all the time and I only use VIM (for now), so it's a decent bet :)

13:28 RickInGA: ibdknox: you may be diehard vim for now, but if that guy that's working on it ever finishes lightbox, I bet even you will switch

13:29 sadger: RickInGA: I saw that it looks pretty, vim all the way

13:29 ibdknox: RickInGA: I dunno, not really a fan of the guy to be honest. ;) And I would totally add vimbindings

13:29 sadger: ibdknox: do you use pentadactyl or vimperator?

13:29 jimduey: ibdknox: That bodes well for having VIM keybindings in light table.

13:29 sadger: integrate vim as the editor

13:29 sorted

13:29 :)

13:29 ibdknox: sadger: vim's UI layer isn't powerful enough

13:30 jimduey: there's actually a vim plugin for codemirror

13:30 and emacs one too

13:30 sadger: sattvik: aww

13:30 ooops

13:30 wrong person damn autocomplete

13:30 ibdknox: I'm sure with some more work they could be dramatically improved :)

13:30 sadger: and so they should be, I have seen sort of vim embedded in eclipse

13:31 basically gvim stripped of the bars

13:31 scriptor: the bars?

13:31 sadger: toolbars

13:31 that you can remove anyway

13:31 scriptor: ah

13:31 so, like vim in a console?

13:32 sadger: yeah essentially just the pane where you edit text in eclipse is vim

13:32 but you lose all the eclipse mouseover and completion etc

13:32 so

13:32 not really worth it

13:32 a better plugin just adds vim keystrokes

13:40 dnolen: ibdknox: heh some heavyweights retweeting Light Table, just saw one from Ajaxian founder then retweeted by Paul Irish from Google.

13:40 ibdknox: dnolen: I suck at twitter

13:40 Don't even really know how to figure that out in a reasonable manner

13:40 lol

13:40 I just look through everything every once in a while

13:41 scriptor: it's getting several tweets a minute

13:41 dnolen: ibdknox: between Paul Irish & Dion Almaer that's showing up in like 50,000 twitter streams.

13:41 ibdknox: sweet :D

13:42 I guess we can call it viral :) It's staying at over 1000 people now

13:42 hopefully we'll get some new Clojure devs!

13:44 scriptor: shoulda plugged the irc channel!

13:44 pandeiro: ibdknox: i think you took down vimeo too or something b/c i still can't watch the demo

13:44 scriptor: although it'd just be a stream of people joining and asking for the demo/source

13:44 video works fine for me

13:45 pandeiro: huh lemme try firefox

13:45 scriptor: hmm, using chrome on osx 10.6.something

13:45 here

13:45 pandeiro: oops i forgot i didn't have flash installed :)

13:45 just set up this OS

13:46 i thought chromium had flash builtin though

13:46 scriptor: don't think so

13:47 pandeiro: how many more years til youtube and vimeo & co will be embeddable with video tags?

13:48 dnolen: ibdknox: haha, did you have a chat with al3x about Clojure?

13:48 ibdknox: yeah at ClojureWest

13:49 I told him fundamentally there are two differences, one that matters short term and one that matters long term

13:49 short - overall complexity of the language is much lower (the book for Scala is huge)

13:49 long - you simply can't create the same level of abstraction in Scala

13:50 the latter is by far the most important, because that's all programming is

13:53 dnolen: ^

13:54 He seemed to really like our community

13:55 irc2samus: hi guys, why does partition and partition-all return an infinite list of empty lists when you pass zero as argument?

13:55 I mean, I understand the idea of "if you partition on chucks of zero elements..." but isn't it useless? and dangerous

13:56 dnolen: ibdknox: I pretty much agree w/ your analysis.

13:56 AimHere: irc2samus, it's kindof the logical behaviour, and clojure sequences are all about infinite lists of things

13:56 It's no more dangerous than ANY use of the iterate function, for instance

13:57 RickInGA: I went to a Scala user group meeting last week, where they showed a demo of lift. Made me like Noir even more

13:57 irc2samus: AimHere: it's way different, with partition and partition-all you're not generating anything, you're splitting

13:58 AimHere: You can split up an infinite sequence with partition just as easily as a finite one

13:58 irc2samus: I suppose if you ask to partition an infinte list you'll get another infinite one, but that has nothing to do with the size of each chunk

13:58 in fact I would never expect to get an infinite list when partitioning a finite one

13:58 AimHere: What behaviour would you like instead, that wouldn't surprise the programmer?

13:58 irc2samus: an error

13:58 mknoszlig: irc2samus: unless the chunk size is 0 :)

13:59 irc2samus: but that's the point, partitioning by zero is an error

13:59 AimHere: It's not an error

13:59 It's the logical behaviour

13:59 irc2samus: I don't see how that ebhaviour could be more useful that actually failing

13:59 no it's not

14:00 mknoszlig: irc2samus: chunk size -1 would be an error, i'd agree there ... for chunk size 0 an empty seq sounds logical...

14:00 AimHere: Sure it is. you partition your set into (/ count #{ ... } n) sets of size n; if n = 0, it's obvious what you get

14:01 irc2samus: it sounds like an error, this is programming not set theory and here if you want an infinite sequence of empty lists you'll ask for that right?

14:01 using this method to achieve that isn't actually useful

14:01 AimHere: (partition 0 <foo>) is one way of asking for that

14:01 irc2samus: and pretty much will happen on actual errors

14:02 AimHere: you're missing the point, that is not the way to do it it is instead A way to do it (now) which I find useless and dangerous

14:02 will you really do that in your code?

14:03 mknoszlig: irc2samus: fwiw, using -1 returns the empty list

14:03 irc2samus: my point is, it's more important to prevent possible errors that to follow philosohical reasonings about what "makes sense"

14:03 and also, it "makes sense" as a logical reasoning, not as a programming one

14:04 AimHere: I think not violating programmer expectations is the way to prevent possible errors

14:04 mknoszlig: irc2samus: i'd say that's a matter of opinion...

14:04 irc2samus: sure it is, but I wonder if there's actually a valid use for it

14:04 as for expectations, I would expect an error

14:04 AimHere: And if you keep your functions logically consistent, then it's easy to build up a fair set of expectations

14:04 You're basing your expectations on what you get from other programming languages though

14:05 irc2samus: specially since code that generates that value might end up getting zero and that would definitely be unexpected

14:05 it's not about other languages, it's about a useless feature imho

14:06 which WIL cause bugs if you don't guard against

14:06 *WILL

14:06 mknoszlig: irc2samus: the utility of the feature is determined by context i'd say...

14:06 AimHere: So guard against them yourself, if you're worried

14:07 irc2samus: I would like to see an actual example of its usage

14:07 AimHere: you're proving my point

14:07 AimHere: Why?

14:07 clojurebot: AimHere: because you can't handle the truth!

14:07 irc2samus: (fwiw this isn't important to me, I noticed it and am curious but nothing else)

14:08 AimHere: I mean, if you've got code that barfs on an infinite stream of empty lists, you guard against it

14:09 irc2samus: AimHere: because that infinite list shouldn't be there in the first place, no one will expect that

14:09 not even you guys, you've reasoned it after I asked, but even the guess for -1 was incorrect

14:09 dnolen: irc2samus: there are many functions that don't validate inputs.

14:09 irc2samus: that's definitely not meeting expectations

14:09 it seems so

14:10 AimHere: When you asked, you stated what happened, so it's a bit unfair to accuse us of not getting it

14:10 ibdknox: dnolen: lol I just got asked if I want a phd :p

14:11 dnolen: ibdknox: HAHA

14:11 ibdknox: why not man?

14:12 ibdknox: hammock time on someone else's dime I say.

14:12 ibdknox: but being a student sucks :p lol

14:12 dnolen: that *is* true

14:13 dnolen: ibdknox: WHOA, props from Avi Bryant!

14:13 ibdknox: you blowing up man!

14:13 ibdknox: don't forget the small people, k?

14:14 RickInGA: ibdknox: I knew I should have gotten your autograph when I had the chance!

14:14 ibdknox: haha

14:14 funny what such a short amount of time can do

14:33 wkmanire: Help, newb question. (def m { :wat "wat" }). (m :wat) returns the same value as (:wat m).

14:33 I read that :wat is a function that looks itself up in a map.

14:33 zakwilson: Yes, that is intended behavior.

14:33 wkmanire: That made sense

14:33 but are maps functions that take keys?

14:33 as well as a data syntax?

14:33 Bronsa: yes

14:33 wkmanire: Ah... ok

14:33 Thanks.

14:34 zakwilson: Keywords are special here. A string key won't look itself up in a map.

14:35 jondot1: hi all. is there any way to improve error reporting from clojure? im trying to figure out where is my error but i get a blunt stack trace

14:36 dnolen: jondot1: 1.3 has better stack traces but no tools I know of expose it.

14:36 wkmanire: zakwilson: (def m { "wat" "wat!" }). (m "wat") -> "wat!". ("wat" m) -> java.lang.ClassCastException

14:36 understood.

14:36 jondot1: i see. i was wondering if there is a debug or verbose flag to turn on

14:37 zakwilson: Also, I think the compiler optimizes the keyword-as-a-function case, so (:wat m) is faster than (m :wat)

14:37 wkmanire: I sure hope my learning curve starts getting exponential pretty soon.

14:37 zakwilson: That's good to know.

14:37 zakwilson: It might. What's your background?

14:37 dnolen: jondot1: I suggest bugging the maintainers of the particular tool you use - better, submit a patch

14:38 wkmanire: zakwilson: OOP.

14:38 zakwilson: .Net, Javascript, Python etc...

14:38 jondot1: dnolen: well currently using compojure

14:38 wkmanire: zakwilson: Very little Java

14:38 dnolen: jondot1: even better would be patch to Clojure that exposes this stuff as a rich map so tools can present whatever they want.

14:39 wkmanire: zakwilson: I'm working out of cemerick's book.

14:39 lynaghk: cemerick: I just added friend 0.4.0 to my clojure 1.3 project and am getting an unzip error.

14:39 wkmanire: I'm chomping at the bit to get the point that I can start a web app with clojure and clojurescript.

14:39 zakwilson: wkmanire: well... you have a bit to learn then. Clojure is pretty different.

14:40 wkmanire: I just watched a slide show illustrating how clojurescript uses the closure compiler in advanced comp mode.

14:40 ibdknox: wkmanire: have you looked at my overtone-ipad thing?

14:40 wkmanire: I've used google's closure before so all in all, very enticing.

14:40 ibdknox: there's a video of me building it

14:40 wkmanire: ibdknox: Have not.

14:40 ibdknox: and it's an easy project to get started with

14:40 even easier now that cljs-template exists

14:41 wkmanire: http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/02/20/overtone-and-clojurescript/

14:41 wkmanire: ibdknox: I was just about to ask for the link. Thank you!

14:43 zakwilson: Functional programming is like an alien planet to me, not just clojure. I'm understanding everything I'm reading so far though.

14:43 This channel has been excellent at answering all of my questions too.

14:44 zakwilson: I have a feeling that the experience is going to be like learning chess. You learn the rules quickly but it takes a long time to get good at the game.

14:44 zakwilson: wkmanire: glad to hear it. Python, JS and many .NET languages support some degree of FP, but it's not the default paradigm.

14:44 sadger: wkmanire: I know it's probably a bit of a tangent but learn you a haskell is very good at intro level to the functional way of thinking

14:44 wkmanire: The joy of clojure has a section on thinking functionally actual

14:44 actually*

14:44 wkmanire: sadger: Yeah, I've gone through lyah once. Haskell was a bit too hardcore for my spare time.

14:45 sadger: wkmanire: get your hands on the joy of clojure

14:45 wkmanire: The plan is to get my footing with clojure and then pick up Haskell after not everything about it is differnet.

14:45 different*

14:45 to me that is.

14:45 scriptor: wkmanire: it's definitely worth a reread, but you have to go through it slowly and not just read through the whole thing in one go

14:45 AimHere: SICP has a fun way of dealing with FP. They introduce you to programming, and don't bother doing anything imperative until about page 160 or so

14:46 scriptor: one trick I found really useful was to try and implement a function when it describes one, before it shows you the source

14:46 AimHere: And even then, it's a kind of necessary evil to make some problems easier

14:46 zakwilson: Haskell is very mathy. That's not to say it isn't practical, but Clojure is entirely focused on practical concerns where Haskell is also focused on research.

14:46 wkmanire: Yeah, and I'm not a researcher.

14:46 I have bills to pay.

14:46 :D

14:46 I was recommended clojure by several people in #python.

14:46 zakwilson: I've written a little non-trivial Haskell. I ported most of it to Clojure. It was the right decision.

14:46 wkmanire: So far it's been great.

14:46 sadger: wkmanire: maybe they wanted rid of you :D

14:46 ibdknox: Clojure ftw

14:47 wkmanire: sadger: Probably, I babble a lot.

14:47 sadger: wkmanire: Might I suggested going to #php I hear it's great

14:47 wkmanire: But I'm (arguably) good at Python.

14:47 sadger: my typing is fail

14:47 wkmanire: Its fun being a newb again.

14:47 It's*

14:47 sadger: my fail typing is contagious it seems

14:47 zakwilson: Though if I wanted to transcode some structured text data, I think I might still reach for Haskell. Parsec just makes it so easy.

14:47 wkmanire: sadger: We've just met and you're already telling me to go to hell?

14:47 Wild_Cat: wkmanire: remember, #python is watching you. :p

14:48 sadger: wkmanire: in some way yes

14:48 ha ha

14:48 I jest

14:48 wkmanire: Wild_Cat: Yes, I'm sure it is.

14:48 emezeske: ibdknox: I'd just like to state for the record that, wow. (re light table).

14:48 sadger: I am a java programmer (well use it in my research) but starting with haskell and now clojure probably left haskell for the same reasons as wkmanire

14:48 ibdknox: emezeske: :)

14:49 zakwilson: ibdknox: are you making cool toys instead of working on libraries to make my life easier?

14:49 ibdknox: maybe

14:49 :p

14:49 zakwilson: This is not acceptable.

14:49 emezeske: zakwilson: his cool toy might also make your life easier

14:49 ibdknox: I was thinking of mocking up meteor, how about that?

14:49 RickInGA: zakwilson: he is making cool toys to make your life easier

14:49 sadger: is raynes still making a lyah style book about clojure?

14:50 ibdknox: sadger: yeah

14:50 sadger: not heard about it in ages

14:50 see I know him from dreamincode

14:50 ssideris_: emezeske: light table?

14:50 sadger: or OF him at least

14:50 emezeske: ssideris_: Yeah

14:50 zakwilson: Oh, I see. That's a code editor. I was thinking of a homebuilt MS surface clone or some such when I heard "light table".

14:51 Wild_Cat: how do hexadecimal escape codes work in Clojure? I want a string that contains a NUL character, how do I do that?

14:51 RickInGA: I was talking to somebody the other day who wants to do Clojure on a Surface table, not sure exactly what he had in mind, but I bet it will be cool

14:51 zakwilson: This might be acceptable. I like Emacs and Slime... but it doesn't really have anything on a Lisp Machine from 30 years ago.

14:52 ibdknox: RickInGA: I have lots of thoughts there

14:52 if only microsoft would give me a surface... ;)

14:52 hiredman: *shrug*

14:52 RickInGA: ibdknox: actually, I think he said he was submitting a proposal to you, GSOC, his name was Eric Caspray

14:52 ibdknox: oh yeah

14:52 he did

14:52 hiredman: I played with a surface a little, it was not very impressive

14:53 zakwilson: I thought you could buy them.

14:53 ibdknox: hiredman: because of the software though, right

14:53 ?

14:53 zakwilson: they're like 10k

14:53 don't care *that* muc

14:53 hiredman: the whole thing

14:53 zakwilson: That's like two prototypes.

14:53 ibdknox: haha

14:53 hiredman: it was in a little table

14:53 zakwilson: I'm curious - did that work?

14:53 hiredman: at some the NERD cetner

14:53 center

14:53 ibdknox: if I could have a drafting table sized surface...

14:53 that would be awesome

14:53 solussd: ibdknox: do you pronounce sqlkorma s-q-ljorma, or sequalkorma ? :)

14:54 *korma

14:54 ibdknox: solussd: it's just korma

14:54 solussd: crap, right. :)

14:54 ibdknox: sqlkorma only because I couldn't get korma.com :)

14:54 hiredman: but, like, I navigate and do everything via the keyboard, which lets me swizzle stuff around as good as the surface, and I can do it without looking

14:54 RickInGA: that's what you get for naming things pinot, noir and korma... already taken

14:55 wkmanire: ibdknox: http://www.internic.ma

14:55 The kor domain is available.

14:55 locojay: hi sry it's my first clojure day. why do i get a list of objects when doing json-str on a clojure map.

14:55 ibdknox: wkmanire: haha, not sure I care that much :)

14:55 locojay: using clojure via zmq to talk to some python code via json.

14:55 wkmanire: :D

14:56 ibdknox: hiredman: I want both. In no way would I try to replace the keyboard with it

14:56 hiredman: for the very things you're talking about

14:56 wkmanire: ibdknox: Besides, if you tell someone kor.ma, they're going to remember you having said "korma.com"

14:56 ibdknox: yeah

14:56 zakwilson: I rarely remember domains anymore. I google things.

14:57 "clojure korma" gets me what I want.

14:57 ssideris_: wow@light table (just watched the video)

14:57 ibdknox: zakwilson: me too

14:57 lol

14:58 ssideris_: so does it exist at all?

14:58 zakwilson: And now I'm looking at light table when I should be finishing learning Django.

14:58 ssideris_: even as a prototype?

14:59 zakwilson: (and why would I do that? because it has a bunch of pre-built apps so I can get certain kinds of client work done really fast)

14:59 RickInGA: zakwilson: Django?

14:59 ssideris_: oh it does

14:59 zakwilson: RickInGA: are you asking what it is? Why I would use it? If I'm crazy?

15:00 RickInGA: zakwilson: I am putting together a 'real quick' thing, and I am doing it in C#, becuase my clojure skills are not there yet. I already regret that decision. I want my clojre data structures!

15:00 ssideris_: ibdknox == cgrand?

15:00 ibdknox: == chris Granger

15:00 ssideris_: this is an amazing prototype

15:01 I really really like the drafting table metaphor

15:01 zakwilson: RickInGA: I understand. I default to Clojure when it makes sense. I don't think it really does for a generic brochure website + cms + e-store. Using something already built and customizing as little as possible makes sense to me.

15:01 raek: cgrand = Christophe Grand

15:01 ssideris_: I think it would take a lot of work to make the navigation easy for drafting tables, but it would really be worth it

15:01 where do I enlist to help with this? ;-)

15:02 ibdknox: once I figure out what in the world I'm going to do with it

15:02 zakwilson: Sell it on ebay!

15:02 RickInGA: zakwilson: yeah, I think the issue is, I can still get work done in C#, I just can't enjoy it anymore :)

15:02 ibdknox: I thought it would make a splash, but I didn't expect it to drain the water from the pool :p

15:02 muhoo: never underestimate the power of a good idea, perfectly timed

15:02 zakwilson: RickInGA: I know what you mean. I felt that way last time I used Rails.

15:03 Every step of the way, I was thinking "this is not simple".

15:03 wkmanire: I'm reading about destructuring. (def v [1 2 3]). In the expression (let [[x _ z] v]) (+ x z)), "_" just the goto variable name for place holders or does it have a special meaning syntactically?

15:03 alexyakushev: 625 points in 3 hours for Light Table post on HN. That is pure win.

15:03 ssideris_: ibdknox: the other obvious thing (altough I

15:03 * zakwilson goes to upvote it.

15:03 wkmanire: is "_" just the....

15:03 * ibdknox goes to check the numbers

15:04 eggsby: hey light table

15:04 raek: wkmanire: it isn't treated specially

15:04 ssideris_: ibdknox: the other obvious thing (altough I'm sure you're being bombarded with ideas) is examples from clojuredocs along with the online help

15:04 eggsby: ibdknox: is this inspird from that bret victor talk? :p

15:04 zakwilson: Oh, good. It's above "a year with mongodb". Die, mongodb, die.

15:04 raek: it's just a convention

15:04 wkmanire: raek: If it is used repeatedly is it going to be reassigned?

15:04 ibdknox: eggsby: some, more from my time on VS

15:04 raek: wkmanire: you cannot mutate local variables in clojure

15:04 wkmanire: raek: Same as destructuring (let [[x x x] v]...

15:04 ?

15:04 eggsby: it looks very cool either way ibdknox

15:05 wkmanire: raek: I know that.

15:05 raek: &(let [[_ _] [1 2]] _)

15:05 lazybot: ⇒ 2

15:05 ibdknox: 30k uniques

15:05 wkmanire: lazybot gave my client a character it couldn't interpret.

15:05 muhoo: "You release an album, one you quite like, and you wake up the next morning to find the entire rock press has sewn its tongue to the back of your trousers" -- review of "OK Computer", 1997

15:05 ibdknox: so far

15:05 solussd: ibdknox: light table looks awesome- where do you find the time for noir, korma, table table, etc ?

15:06 ssideris_: ibdknox: and search to include clojars. with the option of loading the libs with pomegranade. I think I'm having a nerdgasm

15:06 ibdknox: still averaging 800+

15:06 solussd: I'm quickly running out of it haha :)

15:06 wkmanire: raek: Ok, I've got it. Thank you for the clarification.

15:06 jondot1: whats the correct construct to say "I want to map in parallel, but only return a subset of the mapped-on collection" ?

15:07 zakwilson: Combine pmap and filter in the appropriate manner.

15:09 jondot1: zakwilson: you mean filter identity pmap (and return nil from pmap) ?

15:09 zakwilson: jondot1: I don't know what you're trying to do, so... maybe.

15:11 solussd: wait a tick… 1. the ability to generate or load code at runtime coupled with centralized repos (clojars/maven) and potentially runtime dependency management/fetching (reader + pomegranate)… did we give clojure programs everything they need to construct skynet?

15:11 jondot1: zakwilson: well im validating a list of items, using pmap. however i'd like items that are not valid by definition not to appear in the result list

15:11 zakwilson: Maybe you want to filter it first. Maybe you have a big collection and you need to chunk your pmap (I wrote a library function for that - see https://github.com/zakwilson/zutil-clj)

15:11 Wild_Cat: other question: I have a string with a significant number of literal double quotes and backslashes inside it. I don't suppose Clojure supports "nicer" forms of quotation, e.g. Python's raw strings or single-quoted/triple-quoted strings?

15:12 zakwilson: So what you really want is a parallel version of filter.

15:13 wkmanire: solussd: It still doesn't have my boots, my jacket or my motorcycle.

15:14 jondot1: zakwilson: yes

15:15 zakwilson: jondot1: (filter identity (pmap ...)) is probably the easiest route to that. Be advised that pmap doesn't work very well if the sequence is long and f is fast.

15:16 Null-A: ibdknox: are you planning to implement light table?

15:16 jondot1: zakwilson: yes, is what i'm doing currently. hoping to verify that its good enough

15:17 zakwilson: jondot1: see my above link if you don't get a roughly linear speedup from pmap over map.

15:17 (specifically zpmap in util.clj)

15:20 wkmanire: Wow. This is addictive.

15:20 You get a piece of code you don't understand and you just start (doc foo) and re-reading.

15:20 eventually it makes sense.

15:21 Null-A: wkelly: clojuredocs.org

15:21 wkmanire: *

15:21 wkmanire: Null-A: tab completion failure.

15:21 Null-A: aigh

15:22 clojure code is actually really readable even without comments I find

15:22 wkmanire: Null-A: Perhaps if you're familiar with the different FP strategies and core library functions.

15:22 I know neither. he he he

15:22 So these docstrings are awesome

15:22 I wish I had a REPL like this in VB.Net land.

15:23 Null-A: FP is definitely a big learning curve

15:23 it'll change the way you write in all programming languages

15:23 my python looks more like clojure code now

15:23 cduffy: Is there a way to terminate a sequence generated through iterate? I notice that returning nil doesn't.

15:24 Null-A: cduffy: (take 5 (iterate inc 0))

15:24 it's a lazyseq

15:24 if your logic for termination is a function, you can use take-while

15:24 jkrueger: cduffy: or in your case (take-while (complement nil?) (iterate ...))

15:26 cduffy: Null-A: ...yar, I realize that; just seems a shame to put the burden on the consumer

15:26 * cduffy likes jkrueger's approach

15:26 Null-A: cduffy: did jkrueger's solution meet your criteria?

15:27 cduffy: Nicely.

15:30 zakwilson: wkmanire: you think (doc ...) is awesome? Try Slime. Go to a symbol, C-c C-d C-d and you have its docs in a buffer.

15:31 wkmanire: zakwilson: Does this work from an inferior-lisp buffer?

15:31 AimHere: Aha

15:31 zakwilson: Want to see where it's used? There are a bunch of cross-reference functions for that too.

15:31 AimHere: (doc ...) works from inferior lisp

15:32 I didn't know about C-c C-d C-d until now

15:32 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class clojure.lang.RT>

15:32 S11001001: AimHere: try M-. on a function name

15:32 AimHere: So I was annoyed that (doc ... ) didn't work in slime

15:32 wkmanire: zakwilson: What is slime exactly?

15:32 zakwilson: wkmanire: Slime has its own repl buffer.

15:32 wkmanire: zakwilson: I was able to install clojure-mode.

15:32 zakwilson: wkmanire: slime is... an IDE of sorts based on Emacs and the idea of talking to a running Lisp process.

15:32 AimHere: Slime is a lisp mode for emacs, able to handle multiple lisps

15:32 wkmanire: zakwilson: But I wasn't able to get the slime plugin installed. I'm unfortunately learning clojure from a windows box.

15:32 not slime

15:32 swank

15:33 AimHere: Lisp mode as in inferior-lisp, not a lisp programming mode

15:33 zakwilson: The server component is called Swank, and there's a Clojure port of that.

15:33 https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure <-- read all about it. I know nothing about using it on Windows.

15:33 lynaghk: cemerick: ping

15:33 zakwilson: I'd answer questions, but I must be off to the store before it closes.

15:34 wkmanire: zakwilson: Yeah, that won't install for me.

15:34 cemerick: lynaghk: pong

15:34 wkmanire: zakwilson: I already spoke with technomancy about it, he isn't sure why its failing either.

15:34 zakwilson: I'll pick your brain another day, you'll permit me that is.

15:34 :D

15:34 Have fun at the market.

15:34 if you'll permit me

15:34 zakwilson: wkmanire: there may be alternative ways to make it work, like using leiningen. I'll be back in half an hour or so, but I'm no expert on this.

15:35 lynaghk: cemerick: I'm just kicking the tires on friend 0.0.4. I think the credential-fn option in friend/authenticate isn't getting called.

15:35 wkmanire: zakwilson: Okeydokey.

15:35 My english grammar is going to hell. man. What is happening to me? I'm not just making typos, I'm literally forgetting entire words.

15:35 lynaghk: cemerick: moving the key to the first (and only) workflow works, but it doesn't get called if it's at the toplevel map.

15:35 emezeske: wkmanire: No problemo, signor.

15:35 scriptor: that's not grammar, wkmanire, :p

15:36 wkmanire: emezeske: señor?

15:36 wkelly: scriptor: case in point!

15:36 cemerick: lynaghk: Hrm, ok. Note that the app used in the lib's functional tests uses a top-level :credential-fn.

15:36 emezeske: wkmanire: Ah, si, si.

15:36 cemerick: Not that that's a bulletproof example. :-)

15:37 scriptor: wkmanire: signor is italian, I think

15:37 cemerick: lynaghk: is the usage small enough to paste?

15:37 lynaghk: cemerick: yeah, that's where I'm taking it from. If you put a "throw" in it though, everything runs fine, which suggests that it's not getting called.

15:37 cemerick: whoa

15:37 wkmanire: emezeske: Tá tentando falar em español comigo?

15:37 emezeske: ÇD

15:38 lynaghk: cemerick: yeah, let me whittle together a minimal example.

15:38 emezeske: wkmanire: No recuerdo mucho espanol, para quiero comprehendo tu

15:39 wkmanire: emezeske: Yeah, same here.

15:39 emezeske: ^_^

15:39 wkmanire: emezeske: But that was portuguese, not spanish. :P Now if only I could speak clojure.

15:39 RickInGA: yo tambien

15:39 cemerick: lynaghk: FWIW, changing the :credential-fn in mock-app to this dumps all the credentials to *out* during the tests:

15:39 (comp (partial creds/bcrypt-credential-fn users) #(do (println %) %))

15:40 emezeske: wkmanire: I always fail at telling the difference :(

15:42 wkmanire: emezeske: Well, I made a typo in my sentence to you. It should have been espanhol. Portuguese doesn't use ñ, and as far as I know spanish doesn't use ç, or at least not often.

15:42 lynaghk: cemerick: https://refheap.com/paste/2098

15:42 wkmanire: emezeske: But the indefinite verb forms are the same, -ir, -er, -ar, so sometimes it can be really difficult to tell if you don't understand the sentences.

15:42 * emezeske adds this information to his language detection heuristic.

15:43 cemerick: lynaghk: so what happens when you try to log in?

15:43 lynaghk: cemerick: that returns 302. If the credential-fn was actually called, it should return 500

15:44 er, 400.

15:47 cemerick: lynaghk: fiddling w/ your paste now

15:48 lynaghk: cemerick: thanks.

15:51 RickInGA: I had a situation that I couldn't figure out how to solve without mutating state... I built a little slide show that showed each picture for 5 seconds and then when it got to the end, it started the loop over

15:52 I set a variable that had the index to display, and incremented it each time

15:52 I figured there was some way to do it with vector and cycle, but I wasn't sure how

15:53 lynaghk: cemerick: inside friend.clj#authenticate* the credential-fn isn't being used anywhere

15:54 cemerick: at least, the default you've provided isn't. Presumably the kwarg map config is getting processed downstream as part of the request.

15:54 cemerick: lynaghk: yeah, it's only used in workflows; the top-level is available via the config attached to the request via ::auth-config

15:57 oh, hah

15:58 lynaghk: handler/site needs to be outside of friend/authenticate; no params are being parsed out

15:58 lynaghk: cemerick: ah!

15:58 cemerick: yeah, I was just looking at that stuff. Thanks

15:59 cemerick: handler/site or handler/api should generally be the last bit of middleware you apply.

15:59 lynaghk: site includes file serving from public, yeah?

15:59 it's been a while since I've been on the, er, serverside = )

15:59 cemerick: nope

15:59 site ~= session, cookies, params

16:00 api is just params

16:00 ibdknox: noir ftw :p

16:01 that was obligatory

16:01 cemerick: I'll bet this is going to be a common oversight. Maybe friend/authenticate should just compose in the param middlewares.

16:01 lynaghk: ibdknox: I'm actually using a noir-free fork of Fetch on this project =P

16:01 wkmanire: I have to admit, I really don't like the way certain expressions can end with "))))))".

16:01 cemerick: ibdknox: see, now you need to swap out noir's ad-hoc auth stuff :-P

16:02 wkmanire: If your editor doesn't do paren matching for you, it could be really difficult to deal with that.

16:02 gfredericks: wkmanire: well see that's where you're wrong. you DO like it.

16:02 emezeske: wkmanire: You need to have your editor match parens. Oh, and rainbow parens are helpful too.

16:02 wkmanire: emacs matches parens thanfully.

16:02 thankfully*

16:02 ibdknox: lynaghk: whyyyyy

16:02 gfredericks: also I think it's true that any instance of )))))) can be flattened with ->>

16:03 though that would probably be obnoxious

16:03 wkmanire: emezeske: rainbow parens == different color for each level of nesting?

16:03 emezeske: wkmanire: yeah

16:03 Iceland_jack: aka Lisp on acid

16:03 lynaghk: ibdknox: I wanted to use it as a super minimal API layer. All of my apps are static files

16:03 wkmanire: technomancy: I really really like your clojure-mode, and rainbowparens sound sexy....

16:03 ibdknox: ah

16:03 wkmanire: :D

16:04 gfredericks: what is ->>?

16:04 gfredericks: wkmanire: a macro that, along with ->, can clean up deeply nested s-expressions

16:04 lynaghk: ibdknox: yeah. Once instant literal stuff gets sorted out in CLJS I might make a proper public fork and contribute back, if you'd be willing to take those patches. I think Fetch should work without Noir though.

16:05 gfredericks: (foo (bar baz (bang (gee (whiz (man)))))) becomes (->> (man) (whiz) (gee) (bang) (bar baz) (foo))

16:05 jkkramer: ,(->> (range) (filter even?) (map inc) (take 5))

16:05 clojurebot: (1 3 5 7 9)

16:05 wkmanire: gfredericks: What does that do? curry them together?

16:05 Iceland_jack: wkmanire: it's just list manipulation

16:05 gfredericks: it sticks each form at the end of the next form

16:05 wkmanire: Is this used commonly?

16:05 gfredericks: I think so

16:06 wkmanire: Is it reserved for special circumstances?

16:06 lancepantz: ibdknox: dude, i may have missed the conversation, but light table looks amazing

16:06 solussd: ibdknox: ok, so bret victor's video was inspiring, light table looks like it couple become real for clojure… so… when?! :D

16:06 lynaghk: cemerick: so basicially this app is going to have a login route and then an authorization required fetch route to serve XHR. From the CLJS I should just be able to POST to the former, and on success use the latter as usual. Does that sound reasonable?

16:06 gfredericks: wkmanire: nope; it's a macro, so it works at the syntactic level

16:06 the only concern is readability

16:06 cemerick: lynaghk: assuming you've got the session middleware up in front (via handler/site or otherwise), yes

16:07 lynaghk: cemerick: awesome. Thanks again for putting this library out there. I'm glad I saved this part of the project to the end, because the timing worked out = P

16:08 wkmanire: gfredericks: Thanks for the explanation. And what is ->?

16:08 gfredericks: wkmanire: inserts in the second position (first argument) instead of at the end

16:08 ,(-> 8 inc dec (+ 10) str)

16:08 clojurebot: "18"

16:08 gfredericks: I guess that example would do the same thing with ->> :/

16:09 wkmanire: Wow, that knocked out most of the parens.

16:09 gfredericks: ,(-> 8 inc dec (+ 10) (str "foo"))

16:09 clojurebot: "18foo"

16:09 Iceland_jack: ,(->> 8 inc dec (+ 10) (str "foo"))

16:09 clojurebot: "foo18"

16:09 gfredericks: yeah; whenever you would have a list with a single element you can leave the list part out entirely and the macro adds it back for you

16:09 zakwilson: -> often feels like method chaining.

16:10 gfredericks: yeah

16:10 and ->> ends up being more useful with collections, due to the argument orders in the api

16:10 ,(->> [1 34 8] (map inc) (filter even?) (clojure.string/join " -- "))

16:10 clojurebot: "2"

16:11 wkmanire: Well, I need to write some notes and then hang up clojure for the day. Otherwise I won't get anything else done. I haven't had this much fun with learning a new language in a long time.

16:11 zakwilson: I agree, and Clojure wasn't my first Lisp.

16:11 cemerick: lynaghk: Sure; ping me if you hit any further bumps. :-)

16:12 lynaghk: cemerick: will do.

16:12 thanks

16:12 wkmanire: How do I leave a message on the lazy bot?

16:12 I've forgotten.

16:12 lancepantz: paging amalloy

16:12 amalloy: $help mail

16:12 lazybot: amalloy: Send somebody a message. Takes a nickname and a message to send. Will alert the person with a notice.

16:13 wkmanire: $mail zakwilson I had to take off. Hopefully you'll be able to help me get swank working another day.

16:13 lazybot: Message saved.

16:14 wkmanire: later folks.

16:15 kasterma: I am trying to understand (some #{2} [2 3 4]), practical clojure doesn't seem to have #{} and I don't know how to google for it.

16:15 gfredericks: #{} is a set

16:15 clojure sets are also functions that return the argument if the argument is in the set

16:16 &[(#{2} 2) (#{2} 1) (#{3 4 5} 5)]

16:16 lazybot: ⇒ [2 nil 5]

16:16 kasterma: Ahh, thx, gfredericks! Explains it all.

16:16 gfredericks: (some #{2} [2 3 4]) is essentially equiv to (some #(= % 2) [2 3 4])

16:16 for that purpose anyways

16:17 kasterma: That is the purpose I had, and now I realize I should have (class #{2})

16:17 That would have given me the answer.

16:20 lancepantz: ibdknox: will you create a lighttable channel where we can all harass you about it in the same place?

16:21 edw: technomancy: Do you know if clojure-jack-in works with lein2?

16:24 gfredericks: how do I give defaults when destructuring a map?

16:24 oh it's :or not :defaults I bet

16:28 Null-A: lancepantz: i harassed him first

16:28 he still hasn't answered my question

16:31 edw: technomancy: clojure-jack-in does not work with lein2, is that correct?

16:31 Null-A: Interactive development is not realistically feasible in most languages besides clojure because you need strong support for concurrency if you're going to have one thread executing your program and another thread changing state while the program is running

16:31 llasram: edw: Works fine for me

16:31 edw: Huh.

16:32 llasram: edw: Are you using the new lein-swank plugin?

16:32 Null-A: Once this IDE gets developed, Clojure will have yet another compelling argument why to use it

16:32 edw: llasram: What is "new"?

16:32 1.5? 1.4?

16:33 llasram: Well, maybe it was just new-to-me. I was running swank-clojure with lein1, running lein-swank 1.4 now

16:33 (with lein2)

16:34 edw: OK, I'm hacking at clojure-mode.el let me configure it with a specific lein binary so I can switch between 1.7 and 2, and it's dying when I run lein2.

16:34 llasram: ?

16:34 clojure-swank-command didn't work?

16:35 Er, setting it, it being a variable and all

16:36 livingston: is there any way to get a backquoted expression to read a symbol without a namesapce short of this mess `(~'x)

16:37 gfredericks: probably not...what do you need it to "read a symbol" for?

16:38 livingston: symbols as data

16:38 dnolen: livingston: then why not '[x] ?

16:38 gfredericks: it's not easy to do because it's not normally what you want to do when defining macros, which is backquote's most common use

16:39 so without knowing your higher-level purpose it's hard to suggest anything else

16:39 livingston: dnolen: because I need to have some other things evaluated and spliced in with ~ and ~@

16:39 yeah it's not for a macro, I just need to cons up some s-expressions as data

16:39 dnolen: livingston: no, there's no way to clean that up since syntax-quote is generally used for macros, and ~' is not the common case.

16:40 livingston: is there a way to specify the null or no namespace e.g. what you might expect if this was legal: /x

16:40 * gfredericks dares not suggest that backquote complects sexp-templates with symbol expansion

16:41 dnolen: livingston: not in a syntax-quoted expression.

16:42 livingston: most of my symbols are ns qualified, I just have a few "special" ones that don't need a ns, but I might have to give them one to avoid this :(

16:42 scriptor: hmm, getting some weird indenting issues with vimclojure

16:42 livingston: the reader accepts it, but is "?" a valid namespace? as in ?/x

16:42 gfredericks: livingston: maybe it'd be easier to de-qualify them with clojure.walk afterwards?

16:43 scriptor: it seems to keep adding an extra level of indentation, but only when there shouldn't be any identation at all

16:43 dnolen: livingston: the guarantees are enumerated here http://clojure.org/reader

16:43 you can't depend on behavior not explicitly described there.

16:43 livingston: gfredericks: I can. and will if I must. I'm just trying to do as little as possible and make the reader work for me, so that I don't have something I have to maintain

16:44 gfredericks: I wonder if backquote being turned into a macro would help out this situation

16:45 livingston: so it looks like the namespace "?" is valid, as I'm reading the constraints on symbols.

16:47 this could be a huge sweeping re-write, but in the long run it might actually help a lot... *sigh* not the thing to discover friday afternoon.

16:47 gfredericks: at least it's friday the 13th

16:47 hiredman: https://github.com/hiredman/syntax-quote

16:48 gfredericks: ,(read-string "[~foo ~@bar]")

16:48 clojurebot: [(clojure.core/unquote foo) (clojure.core/unquote-splicing bar)]

16:49 gfredericks: hiredman: why do you def your own versions of those ^?

16:50 hiredman: no, I have differently named things

16:50 livingston: gfredericks: oh so it is

16:51 hiredman: and it wouldn't really matter if you did, because the current implementation of syntax quote is in the reader

16:51 so the macroexpander wouldn't get a chance to do anything

16:51 gfredericks: the purpose is to get ` without the symbol expansion, right?

16:51 maybe not

16:51 I don't know what this is for

16:51 hiredman: ,[(clojure.core/unquote-splicing [1])]

16:51 clojurebot: #<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'clojure.core/unquote-splicing>

16:52 livingston: yes backtick with no symbol expansion would be ideal in this case.

16:52 gfredericks: hiredman: if the usage didn't include a literal backtick I would think it could work

16:53 ,'(foo ~bar ~@baz)

16:53 clojurebot: (foo (clojure.core/unquote bar) (clojure.core/unquote-splicing baz))

16:53 gfredericks: macro just has to process that ^

16:53 but again that doesn't seem to be the purpose of this lib

16:54 hiredman: the problem is expansion

16:54 e.g. if you are just passing this through the reader macros will not get expanded

16:55 so you may as well just write a pre processor

16:55 which is really what you should be doing anyway

16:55 lynaghk: cemerick: woo, I have it all working now. I feel like I'm hacking around your framework and/or HTTP though---I'm using the "interactive-form" workflow with :redirect-on-auth? false (just serving "success: true" JSON on the POST /login route) and my own handler that serves "success: false" JSON on failure.

16:55 hiredman: before you actually start in on the data you scan it for pattern X and change it to pattern Y

16:56 gfredericks: I don't understand, but I don't want to bother you further about it

16:57 cemerick: lynaghk: That may be a common workflow for non-refreshing frontends, for all I know.

16:57 You should just use HTTP codes to indicate success and failure, though. :-)

16:57 hiredman: gfredericks: are you talking to me?

16:57 gfredericks: hiredman: yes, sorry

16:57 cemerick: anyway, it's hardly hacking around HTTP or the library, though.

16:58 hiredman: the purpose of my syntax-quote is to rewrite syntax-quote as a macro so it could/can be moved out of the reader

16:59 lynaghk: cemerick: yeah, I have no idea what non-refreshing frontends do. I kind of get the impression everyone just hacks it together somehow, but I'll dig into it and see what's what.

16:59 cemerick: and yeah, status codes sound good. If only because they're a great excuse to look at http://httpcats.herokuapp.com/

17:00 cemerick: that's the only way I use 'em :-)

17:01 gfredericks: hiredman: and I was talking about isolating the sexp-templating part of the functionality and trying to implement that by itself. as far as I understand things it could be done with a macro that's compatible with the unquote syntax; if that's what you were objecting to, then I don't understand why "the reader macros will not get expanded" -- everything I'm thinking of happens after read-time

17:02 kenneth: hey, so i

17:03 so i'm working on a clojure script to process and import a massive dataset into a mongo db, and i have a simple php script that does the same thing to benchmark it against

17:03 it runs orders of magnitude slower: the php script did 100k items in 12s, clojure has been running for 15min on 100k items and is still not done. what am i doing wrong?

17:03 https://gist.github.com/df78a51e447c3a7f80bf

17:04 hiredman: kenneth: you are doing it sequentially

17:05 kenneth: (also couldn't figure out how to use cli params on a `lein run` so i had to hardcode the filename in the script)

17:05 hiredman: in php i'm doing it all in one big while loop, sequentially, i even tried to parallelize in clojure using (seque 50 …)

17:05 hiredman: seque does not parallelize

17:06 (doc seque)

17:06 clojurebot: "([s] [n-or-q s]); Creates a queued seq on another (presumably lazy) seq s. The queued seq will produce a concrete seq in the background, and can get up to n items ahead of the consumer. n-or-q can be an integer n buffer size, or an instance of java.util.concurrent BlockingQueue. Note that reading from a seque can block if the reader gets ahead of the producer."

17:06 franks42: Need some help understanding what it would take to implement a meta-data protocol for classes/deftype... (http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-304)

17:07 hiredman: kenneth: clojure.data.json is also the *slowest* clojure json library I've seen

17:07 franks42: Is the idea to define an interface/protocol to meta-data for the java.lang.Class class and store the meta-data map in a java-annotation?

17:08 y3di: omg this granger do some cool shit again

17:08 kenneth: hiredman: i thought that that would let the new seq get ahead of the current item by 50, ie. it'd always process 50 concurrently, ie. wouldn't wait for item 1 to be finished processing before starting 50

17:08 hiredman: kenneth: no

17:10 kenneth: hmm, crap. okay might have to revisit that, then. do you think that's why my performance is laughably bad?

17:10 franks42: chouser: are you around? would you mind to momment on http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-304 ?

17:13 septomin: so is ibdknox's thing real or just a faked demo (trollface)

17:13 hiredman: kenneth: I think mongo is junk, so who cares how fast you can write to it

17:13 dnolen: septomin: real.

17:14 kenneth: regardless of hiredman's opinion of Mongo, it's very hard to say w/o profiling. If you can't load the data as fast as PHP something is up.

17:14 kenneth: hiredman: i quite like mongo. it can be a bitch to scale effectively.

17:14 either way, though, mongo is not the issue in this case, since the same php script that does the same query on the same file runs 100x faster

17:14 hiredman: https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire note the SPEED section

17:15 kenneth: if it doesn't scale well then what is the point? just use a nice sql database

17:16 you just gave up the power of the relational model for nothing

17:17 kenneth: that's a huge controversial debate and there's good points on either side. for us, the trade off was worth it, and we've managed to scale quite effectively, even though there was some pain

17:17 hiredman: *shrug*

17:18 kenneth: but we serve > 1B requests a month on mongo effectively, so it works out alright

17:18 hiredman: so?

17:18 gfredericks: ,(/ 1000000000 (* 30.5 24 3600))

17:18 clojurebot: 379.47783849423195

17:19 kenneth: https://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-json -- is this a good option?

17:19 Wild_Cat: we have Mongo running 2500+ queries per second and it works out all right.

17:20 dnolen: kenneth: it uses jackson so it's pretty fast.

17:21 kenneth: ok script just finished, 13m in clojure, 12s in php

17:21 gonna try to use the other json lib

17:21 dnolen: kenneth: you can keep trying libs or profile.

17:21 kenneth: dnolen: i have no idea how to profile clojure. do you have a link / direction?

17:22 dnolen: kenneth: http://visualvm.java.net/

17:22 kenneth: you can attach to the Clojure process.

17:23 kenneth: if a sequential Clojure version doesn't take < 12s then something is wrong.

17:23 pjstadig: kenneth: you want to parse JSON on JVM Clojure?

17:24 jsabeaudry: kenneth, keep us updated, I'm still trying to figure out why ajax request on my local server take up to 200ms for trivial stuff and the JSON might play a role

17:26 dnolen: kenneth: also there's no guarantee that monger itself is tuned for perf. looks like they use clojure contrib JSON.

17:34 kenneth: ok, is there an efficient way to keep a mutable count of how many items have been processed?

17:35 dnolen: kenneth: use an atom.

17:35 cemerick: Man, this JDK 1.5 thing is getting to be a real drag.

17:36 ibdknox: what'd I miss?

17:36 cemerick: ibdknox: REPL stuffs killing on 1.6, and bombing hard on 1.5.

17:37 ibdknox: :(

17:37 septomin: totally fake, I'm pretty sure he has the most elaborate mirror setup you've ever seen.

17:38 dnolen: ibdknox: :P

17:38 septomin: i heard there was actually a guy in a box behind the screen, moving the variables around

17:38 * ibdknox waves his hand

17:39 ibdknox: these are not the vars you are looking for

17:39 septomin: so are you working on this "for real" then?

17:40 ibdknox: I'm not sure to be honest

17:40 I'm a bit surprised at the response

17:40 and I've got lots of interesting people to talk to it sounds like

17:40 septomin: it's just a thing that seems obvious we should have and yet don't

17:41 that tends to get people interested!

17:41 ibdknox: :)

17:42 alexyk: what's the status of incanter? I see some pull requests merged but not much activity from @liebke

17:45 kenneth: ,(deref (atom 10))

17:45 clojurebot: 10

17:48 raek: kenneth: it's even more efficient if you can manage to keep the count in a function parameter or a loop binding and recur

17:48 but then it's not really mutable

17:48 kenneth: dnolen: hmm, visualvm seems to be a GUI app. is there anything CLI? i'm running this on a fire walled server cluster with no GUI

17:49 dnolen: kenneth: I'm only familiar with VisualVM and YourKit

17:50 arohner: kenneth: there's jconsole, which has some of the same functionality, but not a complete replacement

17:50 X forwarding is another option

17:51 amalloy: kenneth: most reasonable profilers connect to remote apps. so you probably want to forward a port through the firewall and run the gui remotely

17:53 kenneth: ok i'll give that a shot

17:53 your kit any good?

17:54 dnolen: kenneth: your use of dorun is suspect. you probably want doseq. Your script might be thrashing in GC if it's that slow.

17:54 kenneth: (doc dorun)

17:54 clojurebot: "([coll] [n coll]); When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. dorun can be used to force any effects. Walks through the successive nexts of the seq, does not retain the head and returns nil."

17:54 kenneth: (doc doseq)

17:54 clojurebot: "([seq-exprs & body]); Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by \"for\". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil."

17:55 dnolen: kenneth: also you should start the script with the server flag set and a good amount of memory.

17:57 kenneth: (doc doall)

17:57 clojurebot: "([coll] [n coll]); When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. doall can be used to force any effects. Walks through the successive nexts of the seq, retains the head and returns it, thus causing the entire seq to reside in memory at one time."

17:57 dnolen: kenneth: https://gist.github.com/e0fb72743c3c9d94d646

17:59 kenneth: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/1b45c27dc4627b99

18:01 kenneth: hmm

18:01 dnolen: kenneth: if that gist doesn't work for you after giving the JVM a reasonable amount of memory and setting the -server flag - then I'd take serious look at a profiler.

18:02 kenneth: whenever people show up asking why Clojure is orders of magnitude slower than X it boils down to 2 things.

18:02 1) GC thrashing

18:02 2) Reflection

18:02 hiredman: (also using line-seq when you where advised against it)

18:03 pipeline: that particular example

18:03 is one of the places old school CL implementations are good

18:03 you never doubt how much one function implementation versus another conses in cmucl

18:03 but we're on the jvm, so, live with jvm tools :\

18:04 alexyk: so anybody using in canter nowadays here?

18:06 kenneth: ok, so i've got it down to executing the whole thing minus the mongo part both in clj/php. clj does it in 2.3s, php in 1.2s. seems acceptable

18:07 dnolen: kenneth: did you try CongoMongo?

18:08 kenneth: i did not, will try

18:08 hiredman: kenneth: how are you timing this?

18:08 kenneth: `time php …`

18:08 `leon repl; (time (import-file "…"))`

18:10 dnolen: kenneth: and how are you running the Clojure?

18:12 kenneth: dnolen: what do you mean?

18:12 also i haven't figured out how to do the server flag / set max memory yet, trying to look that up. lein doesn't like flags on the cli, and uberjar gives me a jar that exceptions out when run (can't find importer.core)

18:19 dnolen: kenneth: if you're using lein run - you're probably seeing the cost of starting JVM compiling all of Clojure and your script - then running it. so the actually time spent doing work is probably a small slice of 2.3s.

18:20 kenneth: well i'm doing (time …) in clojure in the repl

18:20 `time lein run` is actually 7.5s or so, with 5s of start the hvm

18:20 dnolen: ^

18:20 dnolen: kenneth: ah k.

18:27 kenneth: congomongo doesn't seem to support upsert

18:27 does it?

18:32 mdeboard: Is clojure-hadoop the standard lib for working with hadoop still?

18:33 amalloy: of course it does

18:33 it's true by default iirc

18:34 jayunit100: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSONP this makes me think about macros

18:36 mdeboard : Unless your doing something complex you don't really need a custom lib for doing hadoop via clojure - i would consider using the standard lib and calling the java functions. They are easily callable from clojure b/c the m/r api is pretty simple. Alternatively, use streaming.

18:36 mdeboard: Eh I like the ease of the defjob abstraction

18:37 Streaming isn't an option

18:45 sritchie: mdeboard: have you used cascalog?

18:45 kenneth: if the doc says: ([collection old new {:upsert true, :multiple false, :as :clojure, :from :clojure}])

18:45 is the correct syntax (update! :collection {old…} {…} :upsert true)

18:45 or (update! :collection {old…} {…} {:upsert true})

18:45 sritchie: it's a much higher level abstraction over Hadoop

18:46 jayunit100: even for simple stuff, it's much easier than setting all these damned formats, etc --

18:46 tuples and tuples

18:46 tuples and taps, ratehr

18:46 rather*

18:46 mdeboard: sritchie: Well, I'm just learning about Hadoop and mapreduce jobs in general. I know what Cascalog is and what it does, but I'm still fumbling around with general concepts of hadoop

18:47 sritchie: mdeboard: cascalog sort of protects you from all of that jank

18:47 and eases you in slowly :)

18:47 but go for it, good to get a handle on the low level

18:47 mdeboard: sritchie: In what way?

18:47 sritchie: you don't have to cast your problem in terms of manipulations of key-value pairs

18:48 you can use tuples of multiple fields, group on those fields without writing custom comparators, etc

18:48 it's really hard to do that stuff in MR

18:48 also, you can use any clojure function and data structure out of the box w/ cascalog

18:48 mdeboard: Yeah, I'm trying to parse some log files as an exercise, it's kind of hurting my brain

18:49 sritchie: mdeboard: I definitely recommend cascalog for that

18:49 got an example, 1 sec

18:49 kenneth: excellent, switching to congomongo fixes the performance issues

18:49 i have the whole thing running in 14s, which is almost as good as php's 12s

18:49 sritchie: https://gist.github.com/7627b0c9cdf4c9e551b7

18:49 mdeboard: ^^

18:49 mdeboard: I started with cascalog but it kind of seemed like I was missing something so I went for a dive into lower level stuffs

18:50 hm

18:50 huh

18:50 sritchie: Thanks, this is actually really helpful

18:51 sritchie: np

18:51 happy to help w/ anything

18:51 feel free to head over to #cascalog

18:52 bbloom: i'm going through some #clojure logs looking for a faster way to build sorted sets. in particular i found this conversation: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2010-02-04.html#11:01

18:53 i'd like to be able to quickly save/load reasonably large sorted sets for a database-index-like operation i'm doing

18:54 i can use transients or something when loading vectors, which is much faster, but it doesn't seem like there is an efficient way to load pre-sorted data

18:56 kenneth: if anybody can find more stuff to critique in my new code: https://gist.github.com/df78a51e447c3a7f80bf

18:56 i have the performance to be almost as good as the equivalent php script, but not completely. i'm okay with this though

18:57 hiredman: bbloom: have you considered using an embedded sql server?

18:57 kenneth: i'd be interested in hearing if you have any ideas of how to implement parallelism / concurrency, so i can process, say, 10 lines at a time

18:58 bbloom: hiredman: nope. once my datastructures are in memory, everything is fast and simple & nice… the issue is loading a saved sorted-set is slower than i'd like

19:00 ideally, i'd like to serialize the internal structure of the sorted-set… so that no rebalancing etc needs to happen on load

19:00 hiredman: bbloom: sure, but switching to something like derby or hsqldb (which can persist data to disk) might be easier than figuring out how to store a sorted set

19:01 jayunit100: i want to try cascalog to we need a query language thats more dynamic than hive.

19:02 bbloom: hiredman: and bring along a lot of other stuff i don't want or need :-P

19:03 hiredman: *shrug*

19:04 gfredericks: I am using the aleph http client and having trouble when the request has a body; the effect is that the result channel gets nil enqueued for some reason

19:04 no explicit failure that I can tell

19:09 devn: how can I scroll to the bottom of the page using clojurescript + google closure?

19:19 dnolen: bbloom: you could re-implement PersistentTreeMap in Clojure and support that. would simplify getting that into ClojureScript as well ;)

19:19 bbloom: dnolen: haha i was just thinking about that

19:20 i'm reading PersistentTreeMap.java

19:20 dnolen: bbloom: it's not crazy amount of code and we definitely want that in CLJS :D

19:22 bbloom: dnolen: yeah, looks like this file is 1,000 lines and doesn't have any real dependencies

19:22 wei_: I'm sending a series of http requests, and I want to block until either I receive a response (via callback function) or 1 second has passed. what's the clojurey way to do this?

19:22 bbloom: what I really need is a way to get to the private red black tree & the private constructor which accepts such a tree node

19:23 wei_: the callback function lives inside a proxy- so I think that complicates things a bit

19:24 bbloom: dnolen: cljs just got persistent hash maps right? no one is working on persistent tree maps?

19:24 dnolen: bbloom: so probably means 450 lines of CLJ tops ;)

19:25 bbloom: yes mmarcyk is working on PHMs. We still need to assess.

19:25 bbloom: probably stick w/ ObjMap for small sizes and bump up to PHM when update time dominates ObjMaps

19:26 bbloom: makes sense

19:27 is there any stance for or against migration of core data structures form java to clj ?

19:27 from* java

19:28 ignoring cljs for a moment

19:28 dnolen: bbloom: not really beyond low priority since we already have them working in Java.

19:28 bbloom: makes sense. and we'd expect the perf to be comparable? i've gotten good perf out of clj, but don't know relative to java "natively"

19:29 dnolen: bbloom: case where you might get more response - new better stuff. Like RRB-Tree in CLJ

19:29 wei_: ^ just looping back.. I think I can do that with a promise

19:29 dnolen: bbloom: perf should be competitive, all the tools are there to accomplish this, see gvec.clj

19:30 gvec.clj is a bit of complex case since gvec can store types beyond objects. But it shows competitive perf w/ Java is possible.

19:30 eggsby: aleph looks interesting

19:30 dnolen: bbloom: certainly if you want to get something into CLJ I think it would need to be as fast as if you'd written it Java.

19:31 bbloom: dnolen: what exactly is this gvec file?

19:31 what uses it?

19:31 dnolen: bbloom: clj/clojure/gvec.clj

19:31 bbloom: yeah, i have it open

19:31 but i also have PersistentVector.java open

19:31 :-)

19:31 dnolen: bbloom: nothing uses it, but people can use it if space dominates.

19:33 bbloom: a gvec of bytes, char will be much smaller than the standard PV

19:33 bbloom: ah, i see vector-of

19:34 interesting

19:42 dnolen: I could also just do a little bit of evil reflection to get at the Node implementation and the constructor i'd need… heh

19:44 it's a shame that the serialization format wouldn't really be general enough. the reader would need to be able to read the comparator

19:44 for a sorted-set, that is

19:46 => (binding [*print-dup* true] (println (sorted-set-by #(compare (:foo %1) (:foo %2)))))

19:46 #=(clojure.lang.PersistentTreeSet/create [])

19:46 sadly loses information

19:46 hiredman: (hypersqldb...)

19:47 bbloom: heh

19:49 hiredman: i have a very particular query pattern that i'm optimizing for. i got much better results out of intersecting zsets on redis than i did out of postgres. i'm getting comparable results in memory with clojure, avoiding the complexity of another networked server for durability

19:49 dnolen: bbloom: thus I think constructing a new type to do this better instead of trying to bend what exists to your will.

19:49 bbloom: it's an interesting idea to explore, I think has some neat implications for CLJS, higly optimized loading of data structures.

19:50 bbloom: but trying to reuse the existing data structures for this is a waste of time IMO.

19:50 Raynes: I am in West Hollywood. :D

19:50 bbloom: dnolen: the issue is that i don't want to throw out some of the really nice core libraries that are hard coded against clojure.lang.Sorted — subseq for example

19:51 although i just started thinking about this

19:51 i guess i could implement Sorted :-P

19:51 dnolen: bbloom: yep

19:51 bbloom: your new thing can interop with everything because that's how Clojure was designed.

19:51 bbloom: :-)

19:51 amalloy: hey Raynes, welcome

19:52 Raynes: amalloy: :D

19:55 bbloom: dnolen: i think i'm just gonna ignore optimizing loads for now & see how far i can get without it… if it gets too slow, i'll investigate rewriting PersistentTreeMap&Set in clj. If I do that, I'll make sure it runs on cljs. Note that there are a lot of "IF"s in that sentence

19:56 muhoo: what is #= and where is it documented?

19:56 dnolen: bbloom: sounds like a plan ;)

19:56 muhoo: it's not documented and probably won't be.

19:58 muhoo: what does/did it do though?

19:59 bbloom: my understanding is that it's a reader macro used by *print-dup* for ensuring the loaded type matches the printed one

19:59 muhoo: ah, thanks

19:59 bbloom: ,(binding [*print-dup* true] (print-str {}))

19:59 clojurebot: "#=(clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap/create {})"

20:19 muhoo: why would one use ::foo instead of :foo?

20:20 i understand what's different-- ::foo is really :user/foo-- , but my question is, why would you use it?

20:21 dnolen: muhoo: to prevent clashes.

20:21 muhoo: keywords are also used to create hierachies for multimethods.

20:22 muhoo: thanks

21:03 kenneth: whoops

21:03 accidentally added 10 million records to the wrong db

21:03 damnit congomongo

21:07 muhoo: damn hammer keeps hitting me in the thumb :-)

21:18 rhc: sorry for the noob question, but how do you switch from the repl buffer to the clojure buffer in emacs? i'm trying C-c C-z like this says https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/blob/master/README.md

21:18 kasterma: C-x b is the switch buffer function.

21:19 rhc: ah, thanks

21:19 figured it was finally time to learn emacs :)

21:25 muhoo: it's good to know emacs, but you can use clojure from a bunch of other editors/ide's too, fyi

21:28 huh, that's weird. org.openid4java:openid4java-consumer:jar:0.9.6 supposedly depends on org.apache.maven:super-pom:pom:2.0, but super-pom 2.0 is not in maven central?

21:30 kenneth: woohoo

21:30 all this work has paid off

21:31 my clojure importer is getting like 2x the performance than the php script did

21:31 septomin_: kenneth: what were the main bottlenecks?

21:32 kenneth: in clojure or php?

21:32 septomin_: in the clojure version

21:32 kenneth: i was getting 100x worse in clojure when i started

21:32 the json parsing library i was using was ridiculously slow

21:33 (data.json from contrib)

21:33 muhoo: oh, that's old. you've switched to cheshire?

21:33 kenneth: no, using clj-json

21:33 muhoo: supposdely cheshire is e'en better

21:33 kenneth: seemed equivalent from the mechmark on cheshire's page

21:34 the other thing was monger is also ridiculously slow

21:34 no idea why, but switched it for congomongo

21:34 and had to rewrite some funky code, i think i was not understand (seque …) right

21:34 so i'm doing it sequentially now, instead of attempting to parallelize

21:34 muhoo: great, good to know!

21:37 alex_baranosky: if I want to call a private function I can just access the var

21:37 kenneth: this is the final code btw. i'm sure i could probably shave off a couple more issues if i tried, but i don't know enough to—https://gist.github.com/df78a51e447c3a7f80bf

21:37 alex_baranosky: that approach seems to be failing me when trying to use a private macro

21:38 gfredericks: alex_baranosky: if you do it that way you end up calling the macro as a function, right?

21:38 at runtime rather than compile-time?

21:38 ,(#'and false false true)

21:38 clojurebot: true

21:38 alex_baranosky: yeah I figured... Is there any way to get at this code without copy-n-paste?

21:39 ,(#'let [x 3] x)

21:39 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>

21:39 gfredericks: you might be able to def a local macro that defers to the other one

21:39 alex_baranosky: let me try that

21:40 gfredericks: or maybe there are some plumbing commands for macroexpansion that you could call manually... :/

21:40 alex_baranosky: be careful that you pay attention to the first two args, which are special

21:40 &env and &form I think?

21:40 lazybot: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: env in this context

21:41 alex_baranosky: don't see &env and &form being useful here

21:41 gfredericks: alex_baranosky: right but the first two args to a macro are those two things

21:41 thus ##(#'and false false true)

21:41 lazybot: ⇒ true

21:41 gfredericks: whereas ##(and false false true)

21:41 lazybot: ⇒ false

21:42 alex_baranosky: oh, funky

21:42 I see

21:43 gfredericks, there seems to always be something new to learn

21:43 gfredericks: so you could maybe pass them through (though not sure which order), but since your private macro probably doesn't use them it probably doesn't matter

21:43 alex_baranosky: heck yes there does.

21:44 muhoo: sorry for the stupid question, but why not make the macro public then?

21:44 alex_baranosky: I didn't realize you could call a macro as a function like that

21:44 gfredericks: usually I learn by saying something and then amalloy corrects me

21:44 muhoo: probably not his code

21:44 alex_baranosky: yeah, dude's a machine

21:44 not my code

21:44 I could copy and paste

21:44 but I hate doing that

21:44 plus, I'm learning stuff now :D

21:45 gfredericks: calling a macro as a function might be secret unsupported behavior; but if you're trying to call private things that's probably not something you care about

21:45 alex_baranosky: I'm doing somethign wrong

21:45 gfredericks: wut ur macro look like

21:46 alex_baranosky: (defmacro defnilsafe2 [a b c]

21:46 (list #'incubator/defnilsafe nil nil a b c))

21:46 gfredericks: I think if you remove the word list it'll work

21:46 you're probably trying to emit code that calls the other macro, when you really want to actually call the other macro

21:46 and return the result of that from your macro

21:46 alex_baranosky: that makes sense, since it is happening at compile time

21:47 BAM!

21:47 gfredericks: BAM!

21:47 alex_baranosky: thanks

21:47 that did the trick

21:47 gfredericks: ~bam

21:47 clojurebot: Pardon?

21:47 gfredericks: clojurebot: bam is BAM!

21:47 clojurebot: Ack. Ack.

21:47 gfredericks: ~bam

21:47 clojurebot: bam is BAM!

21:47 muhoo: emiril iin the house

21:47 gfredericks: hmmm

21:47 I've forgotten how to make him leave off the first part

21:47 alex_baranosky: feels great to learn that new piece of Clojure tonight

21:48 gfredericks: clojurebot: forget bam

21:48 clojurebot: Gabh mo leithscéal?

21:48 alex_baranosky: do you know if &form or &env comes first?

21:48 gfredericks: nope

21:48 easy to find out though now that I think about it

21:48 muhoo: cloujurebot never forgets :-)

21:48 gfredericks: form then env

21:49 alex_baranosky: I'm adding nilsafe arrows to the swiss-arrows project

21:49 gfredericks: wtharetheswiss-arrows

21:49 alex_baranosky: final macro: (defmacro defnilsafe2 [docstring non-nilsafe nilsafe]

21:49 (#'incubator/defnilsafe &form &env docstring non-nilsafe nilsafe))

21:50 gfredericks, https://github.com/rplevy/swiss-arrows

21:51 gfredericks: oh man I've wanted some tricked out arrows before

21:51 alex_baranosky: I'm falling in love with the diamond wand

21:53 gfredericks: oh crap that diamond wand is slick

21:54 I was imagining you'd give an index but that was a terrible idea

21:55 alex_baranosky: I feel like it makes code like this clearer: https://github.com/marick/Midje/blob/master/src/midje/ideas/facts.clj#L80

21:55 I don't think it is the normal solution, but sometimes ->>/-> aren't as easy to read imo

21:56 gfredericks: yeah I think otherwise you'd use an outer (->) with a single ->> on the fourth line

21:56 alex_baranosky: or wrap a funciton in #( ... % ...)

21:56 gfredericks: yeah it's ewy :(

21:56 alex_baranosky: and even then in long forms like that it becomes confusing where the arguments are getting put

21:57 gfredericks: <<- looks interesting too

21:57 muhoo: i am very glad to have <> for cases where i can't gerrymander the args i want to thread into the first or last

21:57 though, i have to say, rhickey seems to have put a LOT of work into making functions threadable by either first or last arg

21:58 gfredericks: there are some things arrows can buy. for everything else, there's the diamond wand.

21:58 alex_baranosky: I agree I do -> then ->>, then -<> when the first two don't look clean

22:00 gfredericks: welp. I'm using this from now on.

22:01 alex_baranosky: I just submitted a pull requesto adda nilsafe wand, -?<>

22:01 gfredericks: -<?> will have some other behavior presumably

22:01 perhaps questionable behavior

22:02 alex_baranosky: -?< would fork to a random path

22:02 gfredericks: yeah I was just thinking of a randomized version

22:04 lisp has existed for decades but we still don't have vertical lists

22:29 jayunit100: howcome you cant dereference a list outside a macro ?

22:29 @(list 3)

22:29 ,@(list 3)

22:29 clojurebot: #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IDeref>

22:30 jayunit100: ooops i meant

22:32 the thingy where you "unlist" a list... i.e. bring all its elements up one level.

22:32 gfredericks: splice-unquote?

22:32 alex_baranosky: you can

22:32 jayunit100: splicing yup

22:32 alex_baranosky: it just has to be done inside of syntax quote:

22:32 gfredericks: ,`(foo bar ~@[4 5 3] haha)

22:32 clojurebot: (sandbox/foo sandbox/bar 4 5 3 ...)

22:32 alex_baranosky: ,`(~@[1 2 3])

22:32 clojurebot: (1 2 3)

22:32 jayunit100: hmm okay i was doing '

22:33 alex_baranosky: ' is quote

22:33 jayunit100: (~@'(list 3))

22:33 ,(~@'(list 3))

22:33 clojurebot: #<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'clojure.core/unquote-splicing>

22:33 alex_baranosky: quote is much less complicated

22:33 ,'foo

22:33 clojurebot: foo

22:33 jayunit100: ,(~@(qoute (list 3)))

22:33 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: qoute in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>

22:33 yoklov: ,`(~@'(list 3))

22:33 clojurebot: (list 3)

22:34 yoklov: ,`(~@(list 3))

22:34 clojurebot: (3)

22:34 jayunit100: Ah oops okay

22:34 alex_baranosky: misspelled quote there jayunit100

22:34 jayunit100: :)

22:34 yup

22:36 Why do we need that syntax quote.

22:36 I mean, in a normal macro it makes sense, but in this case, I would think that the splicer should still work

22:36 macro or not, splice should... splice ? right.

22:37 ibdknox: it is

22:37 what does that splice turn into?

22:37 (list 3) => 3 :)

22:37 gfredericks: syntax quote and normal quote are two different kinds of quoting

22:37 the difference between them is independent of whether or not you're using them in a macro

22:38 syntax quote has splicing, normal quote doesn't

22:38 ibdknox: ~@(list 3) => list 3

22:38 clojurebot: No entiendo

22:38 ibdknox: and then you wrap it in parens

22:38 causing it to execute

22:40 nm, that's not really true

22:51 alex_baranosky: ibdknox, so how far is LightTable from being usable :)

22:52 gfredericks: and what will be the monthly cost for using HeavyTable

22:54 alex_baranosky: also, will it come with paredit?

23:00 yoklov: wait, syntax-quote is different than quote?

23:00 i thought it was just like quasiquote

23:00 (from scheme)

23:00 oh, it also resolves symbols?

23:01 gfredericks: resolves symbols and does the insertion thing and also the foo# symbols

23:01 &['foo# `foo#]

23:01 lazybot: ⇒ [foo# foo__6774__auto__]

23:01 yoklov: oh, didn't know the foo# only worked in syntax quote

23:03 still makes lists though.

23:04 (unlike rackets syntax-quote, which make syntax objects, which are like lists but the compiler yells at you _much_ more)

23:05 gfredericks: that sounds...strange

23:23 yoklov: its really annoying, to be honest. it's for hygene, i guess.

23:26 another reason i'm happy to be writing clojure :p

23:53 muhoo: ibdknox: congratulations, you win HN today

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