#clojure log - Mar 21 2012

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0:03 amalloy: aperiodic: (comp not not x) is (comp boolean x)

0:06 aperiodic: amalloy: indeed it is. thanks for the tip.

0:26 fhd: I'm migrating an older project to Clojure 1.3 but can't find a replacement for clojure.contrib.duck-streams/to-byte-array, ideas?

0:28 jayunit100: hi ::>

0:28 not sure what :main does in leiningen.

0:28 wmealing: says which function is the one to start ?

0:29 when you execute the jar ?

0:29 (just taking a punt, from what ive seen so far)

0:29 s/execute/run

0:29 jayunit100: oh ok

0:30 well... kinda

0:30 jeremyheiler: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L77

0:30 jayunit100: ahhh

0:30 ok

0:32 oh ... and another silly question.

0:33 how do you exit the repl to restart it ? I am starting to feel bad about overusing Ctrl-C....

0:37 _ato: nothing wrong with using Ctrl-C

0:38 amalloy: Ctrl-D, though, just like any well-behaved console app (Ctrl-Z on windows probably works)

0:44 arohner: jayunit100: you can also do (System/exit 0) if it makes you feel better. (but there's nothing wrong w/ Ctrl-c)

0:46 jayunit100: cool.

0:48 hmmmm okay.. heres another low hanging fruit :)

0:48 if I have a list... than clearly, each element is a clojure.lang.Symbol

0:48 (type (nth '(a v c) 0))

0:49 now -- can i search for a string which "looks" like one of those symbols ?

0:55 wmealing: jayunit100, you can iterate over them with a few different functions and write your own compare.. i guess

0:59 amalloy: jayunit100: your if/then strikes me as nonsensical

0:59 jayunit100: ?

1:00 oh haha

1:00 yeah... my bad.

1:00 if I have a list '(a b c) ... than clearly, each element is a clojure.lang.Symbol

1:00 better @amalloy ?

1:01 amalloy: yep, sounds accurate

1:15 emezeske: Arrgg, I know the answer is "no" but can someone *please* un-moderate me on the clojure google group?

1:15 I just biffed the tab and enter keys and posted half a message

1:15 But I don't get to see it for ??? hours, so I can't post a reply that contains the rest of my message

1:16 * emezeske beats his head against the table in frustration.

1:18 wmealing: we've all done something equally stupid if not more so, don't be too hard on yourself.

1:19 emezeske: I'm not being hard on myself, I'm just frustrated that my message goes into a black hole for like 20+ hours now

1:19 So I can't fix it

1:19 wmealing: ah

1:39 slyrus: is there a better svg lib then the freehep stuff these days?

1:39 technomancy: you'll be pleased to hear that I finally got clojure-jack-in working :)

1:44 lynaghk: slyrus, if you just want to write svg itself, check out c2: http://keminglabs.com/c2/

1:45 (or just use hiccup directly)

1:52 slyrus: lynaghk: thanks, but I need freehep's SVGGraphics2D

2:24 sorenmacbeth: is there a way to enumerate all of the bound vars in a namespace from the repl?

2:30 emezeske: ,(doc ns-publics)

2:30 clojurebot: "([ns]); Returns a map of the public intern mappings for the namespace."

2:30 emezeske: sorenmacbeth: ^ might be helpful?

2:31 aperiodic: there's also ns-aliases

2:31 hmm, that's not what i thought it was

2:33 (doc ns-maps)

2:33 clojurebot: Gabh mo leithscéal?

2:33 aperiodic: ,(doc ns-maps)

2:33 clojurebot: Excuse me?

2:34 hiredman_: (doc ns-map)

2:34 clojurebot: "([ns]); Returns a map of all the mappings for the namespace."

2:34 aperiodic: thanks, hiredman_

2:47 sorenmacbeth: hiredman: cheers

2:50 jtoy: hi tomoj I'm still playing around with your example, i get different results for some reason

3:11 tomoj: jtoy: are you using different data?

3:11 jtoy: tomoj: yeah

3:13 tomoj: all my final results print out to 1, I saved the first query to file and did some counts by hand and see the correct data though, still investigating

3:16 tomoj: good luck, gotta go

3:16 jtoy: tomoj: nice, i rechecked all my data and found the error is with my data

3:16 thanks!

4:22 muhoo: muaahahaha https://refheap.com/paste/1247

4:23 DerGuteMoritz: Raynes: thanks!

4:59 jtoy: how can I run a single command that I normally run in the repl and have it exit immediately? I just want to be able to do "time leon repl command" so i can see how long it takes to run

5:04 andrew_kndrtvch_: you can check http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/time

5:11 jtoy: andrew_kndrtvch_: thanks

5:30 why if i run lein repl on 1 machine it downloads data to lib and loads the repl, on another machine it doesn't create a lib dir and my code doesn't run

5:31 the code is exactly the same, both pulled from git

5:31 ejackson: usually you need to run lein deps to get the lib dir populated

5:31 then lein run will work

5:32 raek: jtoy: maybe you have an old version on the second machine

5:32 deps is performed automatically if lib is empty in more recent versions

5:32 versions of lein

5:33 jtoy: i just upgraded lein on both machines

5:33 and still don't get lib on one machine

5:33 raek: do you get an error?

5:34 jtoy: no, just return immediately

5:34 hmm

5:34 raek: which command? "lein repl"?

5:34 jtoy: the broken machine gives me a much newer version: Leiningen 2.0.0-preview2 on Java 1.6.0_31 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM

5:34 raek: in leiningen 2 the lib dir is not used

5:35 the jars are used directly from .m2 instead

5:35 but the program should behave the same

5:35 jtoy: hmm, how can i downgrade to the older one to see if that fixes it

5:36 raek: there are some breaking changes in lein 2

5:36 that's why I think most people keep both versions around

5:37 jtoy: im a clojure newbie

5:40 I'm copying my old one over, thanks

5:41 babilen: jtoy: You essentially want to follow the installation instructions on https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen not on http://leiningen.org/ -- The difference is that the former asks you to download https://raw.github.com/technomancy/leiningen/stable/bin/lein (i.e. the stable version) not https://raw.github.com/technomancy/leiningen/preview/bin/lein (i.e. the preview/development version of leiningen *2*)

5:42 raek: version 2 has not officially been released yet, so it can be wise to stay with version 1 until it is released

5:42 jtoy: i had previsouly just followed the instructions on github

5:49 twem2: the github instructions pointed to the preview version as well for a bit

5:54 Raynes: raek: lein 2 is generally stable enough for use.

5:55 People using lein 1 just means more people that are confused and more projects to move when lein 2 final is released.

5:56 The best bet is to install them both side by side and use lein 2 whenever possible, especially for new projects.

5:56 But anyways, I need sleep.

7:48 pandeiro: is there an analog of filter, something that takes a fn and coll and returns any items that gave nil/false?

7:52 Hali_303: hi! what is the easiest way to copy the sexp at the cursor to the clipboard in emacs?

7:53 xeqi: pandeiro: remove

7:53 Hali_303: also, is there a shortcut for auto-formating?

7:53 dan_b: i use C-M-k C-y

7:53 cursor at beginning of sexp

7:54 also - C-M-t (transpose sexp) is the best thing ever

7:54 jakemcc`: Hali_303: if you are using emacs-starter-kit C-c n for indenting

7:54 dan_b: once you've acquired the habit, you will curse life evey time you're using a non-sexpy language that doesn't support it

7:55 Hali_303: ok, i take that as a warning :) thanks!

7:56 pandeiro: xeqi: never woulda found it, thanks

8:03 clgv: $findfn odd? [1 2 3 4 5 6] [2 4 6]

8:03 lazybot: [clojure.core/remove]

8:03 clgv: pandeiro: ^^

8:12 pandeiro: clgv: neat trick, findfn

9:03 yoklov: anybody know what: "recur arg for primitive local: horizontal_QMARK_ is not matching primitive, had: Object, needed: boolean, compiling:" means? I can fix it by wrapping the indicated argument with (boolean), but that's hardly ideal...

9:09 nDuff: Do sorted maps allow fast random access? I'm looking for a data structure where I can quickly find the keys which sort both immediately before and immediately after a given item if there's no exact match.

9:14 yoklov: i don't really know the details of the implementation, but i'd be surprised if they favored access from any particular area over another. They are still maps after all...

9:19 so yeah, i'd assume quick random access. iirc, what you're talking about is known as the nearest-neighbor problem, so you might want to look into that if you run into performance issues (there could be a fast algorithm that applies to what you're doing).

9:25 clgv: nDuff: Clojure's sorted-map is implemented as PersistentTreeMap

9:26 yoklov: you have a primitive binding in your loop-statement

9:27 yoklov: and that means I need to continuously cast to boolean when calling recur?

9:28 I'm binding initially with "(= (rand-int 2) 0)", and call recur with "(= (rand-int 10) 0)". if one of those is a primitive, i would have assumed both were...

9:31 clgv: yoklov: can you ~paste the whole snippet?

9:31 ~paste

9:31 clojurebot: paste is http://gist.github.com/

9:33 yoklov: its a fairly beastly function but here: https://gist.github.com/2146893

9:35 clgv: yoklov: are you using clojure 1.3?

9:35 yoklov: yup

9:37 changed it so it should be runnable, but honestly i'm not that concerned

9:38 its annoying because wrapping (not= …) with (boolean) is ugly but if its whats needed thats fine.

9:38 andrew_kndrtvch_: how to run lein2 on windows ? with script from github i have got this https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6802923/gyazo/1332336452.png

9:40 jkkramer: yoklov: just a guess, but it might be due to = being inlined while not= is not

9:40 clgv: yoklov: ok, looking at the source of 'not= and '= - I see that '= is an inline function and hence returns a primitive boolean. 'not= is no inline and and thus can only return a boxed boolean

9:40 jkkramer: jinx

9:41 clgv: :P

9:42 yoklov: huh.

9:42 presumably not can't either?

9:42 hrmmmm. nope

9:43 clgv: yoklow: 'not is no inline function either

9:43 pandeiro: searching through a large collection of maps for a value - is there a better way than filter?

9:43 yoklov: oh

9:43 fixed it

9:43 (= 0 (rand-int 2)) is the same as (not= 0 (rand-int 2)), but isn't a primitive

9:44 awesome, thanks

9:44 jkkramer: yoklov: see 'zero?'

9:44 yoklov: oh, right

9:45 but then it's (not (zero?…))

9:45 clgv: hmmm, imo the doc-string should indicate :inline

9:45 jkkramer: forgoing zero? isn't a sin

9:45 yoklov: also zero? gives me the same problem as before

9:46 jkkramer: it's inlined too

9:46 yoklov: then i can't use it here

9:46 for whatever reason

9:47 in my defense this is a port from some oldish scheme code i wrote, where there's no 'zero?'

9:47 clgv: yoklov: (not= % 0) is equivalent to (> % 0) if you have only positive integers

9:47 yoklov: of course, but you don't think the first is slightly more readable?

9:47 when that really is what you're checking

9:48 clgv: but '< and '> are inlined ^^

9:48 jkkramer: pandeiro: filter or for are probably what you want, but depends on the circumstance

9:48 clgv: I guess there should be ticket to point at that issue.

9:50 yoklov: hm. i can fill one out later today, i actually have to run right now

9:50 thanks for the help!

9:51 andrew_kndrtvch_: so.. now can anybody help me ?)

9:51 how to run lein2 on windows ? with script from github i have got this https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6802923/gyazo/1332336452.png

9:55 clgv: andrew_kndrtvch_: maybe you can add the leiningen standalone jar to your classpath manually. have you checked if it was downloaded?

9:58 andrew_kndrtvch_: yes

9:58 but it doesn't really contains this class

9:58 so .. or there are some dependency exists or the script is wrong

10:01 clgv: andrew_kndrtvch_: the script seems wrong. in preview 2 of lein there is no leiningen/core.clj indeed

10:03 andrew_kndrtvch_: so this seems wrong then >> clojure.main -e "(use 'leiningen.core)(-main)"

10:04 andrew_kndrtvch_: the linux script has >> clojure.main -m leiningen.core.main

10:05 ericmoritz\0: is there a easy way to read n bytes from a bufferedreader?

10:10 raek: ericmoritz\0: use a BufferedInputStream. readers are for textual data and input streams are for binary data.

10:13 pandeiro: jkkramer: I'm cleaning up typos in collections of 5000+ maps, referencing them against another large collection, so i am iterating through the reference collection for every word to remove matches

10:46 Scorchin: Is there a curses-like library for Clojure available? E.g. to build my own REPL-like app

10:50 fdaoud: I'm starting out with ClojureScript and one thing I find very appealing is to use Clojure data structures instead of JSON to communicate data between server and client. I'm finding a ton of CLJS stuff but I can't seem to find a simple example of this.

10:50 ohpauleez: lynaghk: ping

10:50 fdaoud: the data still has to go "over the wire"..

10:50 and it is still ajax..

10:50 so I'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around how that would work.

10:51 ejackson: fdaoud: I give an example of this on my blog: http://boss-level.com/?p=102

10:53 fdaoud: no, I'm lying.... it was somewhere else....

10:53 TimMc: You just print/read, right?

10:53 ejackson: sorry: http://boss-level.com/?p=119

10:54 fdaoud: ejackson: thanks, I was going to say, doesn't seem to be what I am looking for.. nice tutorial though, definitely looking at that too sometime soon

10:54 ejackson: Yeah, the second link is, I think, what you're after. Now I'll stop with the shameless self promotion.

10:54 fdaoud: TimMc: as a hello world maybe, but eventually want to render a view from the received data

10:55 TimMc: Not sure what you're asking, then.

10:55 How is pr-str/read-string any different architecturally from toJSON/readJSON or whatever?

10:56 sparkleshy: why is throw a special form? ...couldn't it just be implemented with a bit of java?

10:56 ejackson: TimMc: saves you writing the serialisation functions more than once

10:57 fdaoud: ejackson: thanks! that's exactly what I was looking for. s/stop shameless self promotion/please continue helpful contributions/ !

10:57 ejackson: trust me I googled.. just not for the right terms I guess :/

11:06 TimMc: sparkleshy: If it were a function, it would itself show up in all the stack traces.

11:07 hhutch: fdaoud: the fetch library lets you do this pretty easily

11:08 fdaoud: hhtutch: from ibdknox?

11:08 hhutch: https://github.com/ibdknox/fetch the example there are passing clojure structures not json

11:09 fdaoud: hhutch: thanks-- and btw from all my googling I found your cljs-clojure-demos, thanks for putting those up

11:09 hhutch: fdaoud: :)

11:09 i need to finish them

11:13 fdaoud: hhutch: definitely will look at fetch, but want to learn the core first.. just like I found it better to learn ring before learning compojure before learning noir :)

11:13 Lajla: You're tearing up my heart when I'm with youuuuu

11:13 but when we are apart I feel it tooooo

11:13 And no matter what we do I feel the paaain

11:14 with or without you

11:14 raek: sparkleshy: I guess you could delegate throw to a clojure function (implemented in java) or to a java method. you couldn't do that with catch, though.

11:15 but why not let the compiler generate the bytecode instruction for throw instead of a call to the throw funcion/method?

11:16 Lajla: raek, my love.

11:16 &"I worship His Shadow"

11:16 lazybot: ⇒ "I worship His Shadow"

11:17 raek: but yeah, I guess you could have throw as a function and let the compiler optimize it the way it optimizes plus, minus, and friends

11:21 edw: This may seem weird, but I'm at a start-up in NYC as the product lead and I'm looking for a CTO, VP of eng., or "just" someone who's talented at stats and big data. Clojure love would be a big plus.

11:28 fdaoud: ejackson: what are pr-str and read-string?

11:28 TimMc: fdaoud: doc 'em

11:29 edw: Cool. What industry?

11:30 ohpauleez: edw: Where in NYC are you? Tutorspree is all about the Clojure love

11:30 also, the Clojure community here is pretty big

11:31 fdaoud: TimMc: yeah it wasn't working in my cljs repl

11:31 TimMc: sparkleshy: Actually, throw *can't* be a function, because it needs to have control over the evaluation of its body.

11:31 fdaoud: (use 'clojure.repl)

11:31 Are you in SLIME?

11:31 edw: Our office is in SoHo. (I live in West Village.)

11:32 TimMc: Advertising, of course.

11:32 fdaoud: TimMc: no, just straight-up command line

11:32 edw: ohpauleez: Who/what is Tutorspree?

11:33 ohpauleez: We're a YC-backed startup here in NYC (our office is in tribeca). I just finished up a talk at Clojure/West on Clojure-powered startups

11:33 TimMc: fdaoud: Huh. Leiningen's repl should include that by default...

11:33 fdaoud: TimMc: no biggie. Anyway, I think I get it, but obviously you still need a string representation to go over the wire. So pr-str and read-string could be json-str and read-json and it wouldn't change much, or am I missing something?

11:34 TimMc: fdaoud: Anyway, pr is the Clojure serializer and read is the deserializer. pr-str and read-string are the string counterparts (instead of streams).

11:34 ohpauleez: edw: ^ and I'd go to the Clojure Meetups at Google. You'll get connected to a lot of people. Are you personally using Clojure now? Why have you selected Clojure to tackle your problem?

11:34 TimMc: fdaoud: Using json limits your expressiveness and may require custom (de)serialization.

11:36 fdaoud: TimMc: I see. So they are just more powerful and clojure-adapted ways to make the data go through. Once back into Clojure data format, you can use them as regular data structures in ClojureScript instead of (not as powerful) objects in JavaScript.

11:36 very nice.

11:37 TimMc: thank you for your patience, I am just trying to wrap my head around it all..

11:37 TimMc: fdaoud: More precisely, this is the native string representation of Clojure.

11:37 &(pr-str '[1 2 (a :b #{c})])

11:37 lazybot: ⇒ "[1 2 (a :b #{c})]"

11:37 edw: ohpauleez: I use Clojure for most of my problems (unless the problem needs to be solved in a web browser, in which case I'm still using JS) because I'm a Lisp guy and the JVM host gives me access to a huge ecosystem. But we're not actually using Clojure right now; we're doing development in Java, which is due to working with a consulting shop.

11:37 raek: TimMc: does it? isn't <expr> in (throw <expr>) evaluated like any other expression?

11:38 ohpauleez: edw: Also TimMc is an AWESOME consideration is he's available :)

11:38 edw: Awesome!!!

11:38 TimMc: raek, sparkleshy: Augh, I was thinking try for a moment instead of throw. Never mind...

11:38 fdaoud: TimMc: I see. And you're right, lein repl works properly.

11:39 for some reason I thought pr-str and read-string were clojurescript, not plain clojure, thus my confusion.

11:39 ejackson: edw: if you're interested in consultants, I might be able to help you out, check your PM

11:41 edw: ejackson: Will do. (I'm IRCing through a soda straw here, dealing with my META key not working.) That said, we're looking to hire someone to be my peer; I intensely dislike contractor situations.

11:41 ejackson: no sweat, i intensely dislike employment situations :)

11:42 edw: Hey, I feel the same way about being employed anywhere but at a start-up.

11:42 Otherwise, consultant city.

11:43 TimMc: My dad has been self-employed for a large portion of his life.

11:43 Seems prety happy with that. :-)

11:44 ejackson: I've bene self employed only 18 mnths, but I'm loving it

11:44 TimMc: Does starting heirloom seed companies and selling them off count as being "in the startup business"? :-P

11:45 ejackson: most def'

11:45 TimMc: Even if it takes like a decade for each?

11:46 edw: I grew up in my parents' small business and that ruined me for working anywhre that I have to deal with people who I have to connect the dots for. That and almost twenty years of working in my own design firms, for new companies, as a consultant.

11:46 TimMc: I'd like my _next_ "start-up" to be like that, more of a 37signals affair.

11:53 patrikkarlin: hej i used the new? clojure-jack-in function in clojure-mode and it connects fine and i can eval expressions but the repl dosent open. Anny one had the same problem?

11:56 TimMc: edw: Have they actually sold anything off?

11:56 raek: patrikkarlin: what do you mean by "the repl dosent open"? didn't the repl buffer pop up when you got connected? where did you eval the expressions?

11:57 patrikkarlin: from the file buffer

11:57 no it did no open

11:57 cap10morgan: morning dakrone. thanks again for the noir demo last night.

11:58 dakrone: cap10morgan: thanks for coming :)

11:59 clgv: cap10morgan, dakrone: did you talk about noir and cljs? is there any material online?

11:59 edw: TimMc: I was at Half.com from nearly day one. We sold to eBay for $350 million or so.

11:59 dakrone: clgv: noir on heroku, not much material; it was mostly a coding-example walkthrough

12:00 clgv: dakrone: ah ok.

12:00 raek: patrikkarlin: for me the buffer is called *slime-repl nil*. do you see any buffer like that if you press "C-x C-b"?

12:00 edw: TimMc: And I had a boutique consulting firm that I founded and sold to my partners back in late '08.

12:01 patrikkarlin: raek: no i have a slime events buffer tho and it dosent give me anny errors :(

12:01 ejackson: edw: busy man !

12:02 tmciver: patrikkarlin: do you see a *swank* buffer?

12:02 patrikkarlin: tmciver: yea

12:03 raek: patrikkarlin: what does the *Messages* buffer contain? a bunch of lines like "Loading (...)slime(...)done", "Connecting to Swank on port (...)..", "Connected. Lemonodor-fame is but a hack away! (or some other quote)"

12:04 patrikkarlin: also, what clojure related stuff have you installed in emacs? just clojure-mode?

12:05 patrikkarlin: Starting swank server...

12:05 Connecting to Swank on port 63441.. [2 times]

12:05 error in process filter: Symbol's function definition is void: slime-output-buffer [2 times]

12:05 Connected. May the source be with you!

12:05 theres an error

12:05 replaca_: Q: does someone know how to do (def ^:dynamic ...) without using a reader macro?

12:05 raek: replaca_: like from a macro?

12:05 replaca_: no, I want something that will work in all versions of clojure

12:06 pandeiro: patrikkarlin: i vaguely remember that being a version issue? look in ~/.lein/plugins?

12:06 patrikkarlin: i installed clojure-mode and clojurescript mode and lein-clojure i think

12:06 lein-clojurescript-1.1.0.jar swank-clojure-1.3.2.jar

12:07 raek: (having slime installed is known to cause problems. you don't have to install it when using clojure-jack-in, since it the swank server you connect to provides a matchin version for you)

12:07 replaca_: although, I could use a macro, if I could find a way to make it work

12:07 raek: replaca_: is this for maintaining compability with Clojure 1.1 and earlier?

12:08 patrikkarlin: raek: dosent seme logical that that whuld void out a function tho??

12:08 lazybot: patrikkarlin: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?

12:08 replaca_: raek: yeah, in autodoc

12:08 raek: oh, I see

12:08 pandeiro: patrikkarlin: ls -l your .emacs.d?

12:09 raek: maybe you could consider running autodoc in the leiningen clojure instance

12:09 patrikkarlin: 06 *** benares_98 JOIN

12:09 17:06 <replaca_> raek: yeah, in autodoc

12:09 > init.el package package.el places swank

12:09 raek: it will be >= 1.2

12:10 pandeiro: patrikkarlin: swank has the slime elisp files?

12:10 i think i had that problem when i accidentally deleted that folder or its contents

12:10 replaca_: raek: that doesn't work for documenting, e.g. clojure itself

12:11 raek: replaca_: anyway, you can construct a symbol with {:dynamic true} metadat like this: (let [sym (acquire-symbol-somehow)] (vary-meta sym assoc :dynamic true))

12:11 replaca_: raek: yeah, that's about where I'd gotten to and I think it's the right approach

12:11 raek: thanks

12:12 patrikkarlin: it has slime files in it i asume this whas installed by the package maneger i dident install swank manualy

12:12 raek: replaca_: is the problem that the reader autodoc uses might not be able to read the source?

12:12 sounds like a hard problem to solve

12:13 replaca_: raek: at the core, autodoc is usingg whatever version of clojure that is involved in that program

12:13 raek: if the syntax changes is the only problem, maybe maintaining a separate 1.1 version is simpler

12:13 replaca_: once I've dig out all the vars, protos and types, I switch back to clojure 1.3

12:13 raek: ah

12:14 replaca_: *dug

12:14 mostly it works pretty easily, at the cost of some copy and paste pattern

12:15 raek: patrikkarlin: have you seen this? https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/issues/92

12:15 pandeiro: patrikkarlin: weird, sorry i don't remember exactly what i had to do but you might just remove swank of .lein/plugins and .emacs.d/ and lein install swank-clojure 1.3.3

12:16 raek: from that page it looks like there was a problem in swank-clojure 1.3.2, and that 1.3.3 should work

12:16 1.4.3 seems to be the latest stable version, though

12:18 patrikkarlin: try removing all you installed plugins first (as pandeiro suggested, using "rm ~/.lein/plugins/*")

12:18 and then "lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.4.3"

12:19 also check that you _don't_ have swank-clojure mentioned in your project.clj file

12:20 patrikkarlin: i got a artifact missing error is that version not on clojars?

12:22 raek: hrm, did I spell it wrong?

12:22 patrikkarlin: i dident find it on the site

12:22 using the 1.5.0-SNAPSHOt

12:23 raek: ah, it's called lein-swank now

12:24 patrikkarlin: "lein plugin install lein-swank 1.4.3"

12:25 (I tested that on my box too, just to be sure)

12:25 sparkleshy: is there any way to overload + without damaging performance in the normal case?

12:26 patrikkarlin: THADA

12:26 raek: :)

12:26 patrikkarlin: kisses and hugs everyone who helped :D

12:27 raek: lycka till!

12:27 replaca_: raek: so it turns out that vary-meta was the wrong tree up which to bark. By the time you have a var, it's already pulled from the meta. But (.setDynamic #'foo) seems to do the trick

12:27 dunno if it works in 1.1 though

12:28 but I think I was conditionalize that

12:28 *was=>can

12:28 raek: are you generating code?

12:28 or making code that should be readable in any clojure version?

12:29 .setDynamic sounds like an invention of 1.3

12:30 replaca_: the latter

12:30 I agree that it sounds like a 1.2 or 1.3 thing, but I don't know for sure

12:30 but that's what macros are for :)

12:33 raek: replaca_: maybe you could (ab)use the eval reader macro: (def #=(vary-meta '*some-var* assoc :dynamic true) 123)

12:34 then you can have metadata in the code without using "^" or "#^"

12:36 eggsby: Hi guys, I have question. I was looking over the implementation of sort-by in clojure.core and I was puzzled by the line "(sort (fn [x y] (. comp (compare (keyfn x) (keyfn y)))) coll)))

12:36 "

12:36 melipone: what's the clojure library that has the trace tools in 1.3.0?

12:36 eggsby: So it's sorting the result of applying the anonymous function to the collection

12:37 replaca_: raek: oh, that's an interesting idea

12:37 eggsby: But what i'm confused about is the use of the java interop "." . It uses the clojure compare on the result of applying the keyfunction to x and y

12:37 but where does the java interop come in?

12:37 it's saying (. compose (comparison of x and y)) right?

12:38 replaca_: I've got it working now with the .setDynamic, so I think I'll go that way (it's a yak shave anyway to get some debug printing in)

12:39 raek: you're right, .setDynamic was a 1.3 innovation

12:39 but I have a macro that covers that based on the clojure version

12:41 vijaykiran: eggsby:I think the comp in that line is Comparator

12:41 eggsby: you are talking about this line - https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L2713 .. right ?

12:42 eggsby: yes vijaykiran

12:43 vijaykiran: eggsby: AFAIU - it is like java.util.Comparator#compare(keyfn x, keyfny)

12:43 eggsby: so comp here isn't clojure.core/comp :)

12:43 eggsby: oh? how confusing!

12:43 so it has to do with the ^notation ?

12:44 vijaykiran: eggsby: yeah .. ^blah is a "type hint"

12:44 eggsby: I'm a bit confused though because I thought the . notation you had the java method as the last parameter, in this case it is the first?

12:44 like (. 1 toString)

12:44 and here it is (. toString 1)

12:45 oh, I see. comp is clojure comp and compare is java's compare?

12:45 vijaykiran: eggsby: nope, (. target member)

12:45 lucian: and the shorthand is (.method ...)

12:45 (.method target ...)

12:46 eggsby: where target is our parameter to pass to the java method as 'member'?

12:46 clgv: &(.toString 1)

12:46 lazybot: ⇒ "1"

12:46 clgv: &(. 1 (toString))

12:46 lazybot: ⇒ "1"

12:46 eggsby: so 'compare' in that context is java compare, right?

12:46 vijaykiran: eggsby: yeah, almost - comp is java.util.Comparator and compare is the method from java.util.comparator

12:46 eggsby: :o

12:46 okay, so one is done by typehinting, and the other is done by the java interop function?

12:47 comp by typehinting and compare by java interop "." ?

12:50 Zoka: Hi guys - have a look at http://noirmon.herokuapp.com/ringmon/monview.html It is a web based interface to nREPL server running within a Noir based app on Heroku. It has color syntax editor (CodeMirror), command history and persistent sessions. Comcurent web users can communicate to each other using simple built in chat.

12:50 clgv: eggsby: you can rewrite to: (sort (fn [x y] (.compare comp (keyfn x) (keyfn y))) coll)

12:50 eggsby: that makes sense clgv

12:51 and in that context comp is typehinted as the java comp from the line [keyfn ^java.util.Comparator comp coll], correct?

12:51 or rather 'comp as java.util.Comparator'

12:51 clgv: Zoka: where is te chat?

12:51 nDuff: Are there any suggestions re: minimally-invasive workarounds for CLJ-855 (wrapping of checked exceptions making them unhandleable without catching RuntimeException and unwrapping)?

12:53 clgv: Zoka: seems you could use a sandbox ;)

12:54 Zoka: You just type in REPL window and press 'Send'

12:54 clgv: hmm but it restarted at least ;)

12:54 patrikkarlin: do whe se each others code executions?

12:54 or only chat?

12:55 clgv: execute something^^

12:55 patrikkarlin: i se my own

12:55 clgv: I think I killed it with (System/exit -1) ;)

12:55 Zoka: No, just chat, but you ca

12:56 pandeiro: clgv: that's a feature, you can turn off the server if it's bothering you while you're chatting

12:56 patrikkarlin: :D

12:57 Zoka: It just comes back :)

12:57 clgv: Zoka: you should consider using clojail ;)

12:57 pandeiro: it uses nREPL right?

12:57 Zoka: Thi is just a demo for development tool

12:58 So it needs to be full featured

12:58 And Heroku apps are indistructable

12:59 clgv: if I had some time I'd see which parts of the filesystem are accessible ;)

12:59 patrikkarlin: think you can only read

12:59 on heroku ..

13:00 technomancy: patrikkarlin: that's actually only true of earlier heroku stacks

13:00 the ruby-only ones

13:00 Zoka: Ephemeral file system - you can kill it bit it comes back

13:04 You can write in your app current directory on Heroku, but those changes are gone on restart

13:08 pandeiro: (count (map ... coll)) should always be the same as (count coll)?

13:09 patrikkarlin: have you seen something else?

13:09 clojurebot: Titim gan éirí ort.

13:09 pandeiro: i am doing some processing on a fairly large collection and i can't seem to realize it afterwards, the Thread dies, then when I count the number is different

13:11 patrikkarlin: the thread where the collection whas behing "changed" died yet you have access to it?

13:12 ldh: i'm having trouble with clojure.data.json. read-json is throwing this error: IllegalArgumentException No implementation of method: :read-json-from of protocol: #'clojure.data.json/Read-JSON-From found for class: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap

13:12 patrikkarlin: or do you mean died as in it whas done not crached

13:12 ldh: code here: https://gist.github.com/2149600

13:12 technomancy: well, the semantics of what happens when a lazy seq can't be realized are kind of funny

13:12 pandeiro: well the map returns a lazy collection so i can map it fine but i can't realize it

13:12 technomancy: how do i know when to give up?

13:13 technomancy: I guess you could argue that count should throw an exception every time if realizing the seq can't happen

13:14 it doesn't make sense to retry the function generating the seq, but I don't think it makes sense to return an empty seq either

13:15 the best thing would probably be to attach the exception to the seq and re-throw it every time the seq is attempted to be realized

13:16 pandeiro: weird, when i kill the thread and count again the number is different... maybe that's a sign i just need to wait?

13:23 cemerick: Zoka: looks like you're building a bit of a fanbase with ringmon :-)

13:23 Zoka: yes

13:23 * cemerick is working on a proper HTTP transport right now

13:24 Zoka: It eouild not work without nTRPL

13:24 I mean nREPL

13:24 cemerick: Yeah, hopefully shortly you'll be able to get rid of the hacks you needed to do in order to work around the lack of HTTP support.

13:25 Zoka: No problem, I am very happy with it as is - everything work as advertised

13:26 * technomancy has been meaning to look into this

13:26 technomancy: right now there's no command-line client that speaks HTTP yet, is there?

13:27 cemerick: it's simple enough that any HTTP client (curl, clj-http, etc) should do just fine

13:28 The existing nREPL client is general enough that clj-http slips right underneath.

13:28 technomancy: curl by itself isn't very repl-ish though

13:29 cemerick: oh *command line* client

13:29 no

13:29 Zoka: If you want to use nREPL on heroku tthere is problem of one server socket per web app restriction, so it goed browser->ajax->ring middleware->custom trasport (in JVM) -> nREPL

13:29 cemerick: I'm going to try to get Colin to add it as a connect option to reply (and therefore lein)

13:29 technomancy: slick

13:30 cemerick: Zoka: right, the server side of the HTTP transport I'm working on is just another ring handler

13:30 technomancy: cemerick: I may be able to help with that next week if needed

13:30 Zoka: yes. it jist inject a web page and ajax uti

13:31 s /uti/uri/

13:33 cemerick: technomancy: it's working fine already for simple interactions. I'm trying to figure out how fancy to get re: binary returns (multipart responses vs. some kind of scheme to refer to temporarily-cached auxiliary resources)

13:33 technomancy: multipart on the CLI? I would have figured that for a lost cause.

13:34 cemerick: well, reply can not opt into such things

13:35 but simple stuff is totally doable without a GUI

13:42 tomoj: marginalia's choice of `foo` over <tt>foo</tt> makes me happy

13:56 TimMc: Markdown: It's almost a real markup language!

14:22 muhoo: what would you recommend for a simple, local-ish datastore?

14:22 i don't need datomic, and i don't want to have to deal with sql and schemas and jdbc, this is just clojure maps

14:22 and storing it all in a flat file kind of sucks

14:23 aperiodic: sqlite?

14:23 RickInGA: mongo?

14:24 muhoo: maybe mongo, i'll have to try it.

14:24 i'd rather avoid sql and jdbc

14:24 RickInGA: I have only done the simplest of examples, but congomongo looks pretty easy to use

14:24 pandeiro: muhoo: couchdb is pretty easy with clutch

14:24 muhoo: ah, thanks.

14:25 technomancy: another vote for couch

14:25 muhoo: thanks, that looks like the winner!

14:25 patrikkarlin: not redis :(

14:25 technomancy: mongodb worries me

14:25 pandeiro: muhoo: check out the clojurian semantics cemerick added wait i'll find a link

14:26 muhoo: this? https://github.com/ashafa/clutch

14:26 RickInGA: technomancy: pandeiro: what is the motivation for couch over mongo? (I don't know enough to have a preference either way)

14:26 aperiodic: hmmm, repl-y doesn't work at all for me

14:26 technomancy: RickInGA: mongo's defaults are optimized for microbenchmarks over safety

14:27 it's like mysql; it "wins" all the speed comparisons done by people who don't know any better, but as soon as you turn on all the features you need to actually make it a good database, it's no faster.

14:27 antares_: technomancy: what are you voting on?

14:27 RickInGA: technomancy: thanks, that is a pretty good answer :)

14:28 antares_: RickInGA: if you have reasons to use mongo, try https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger

14:28 technomancy: TBH mysql now has better defaults, but that's the stereotype it has from the early 200Xs

14:28 mk: what is a macro?

14:28 antares_: RickInGA: but mongodb java driver has crazy unsafe defaults (monger in part fixes that) and it is very fast only with low concurrency

14:28 muhoo: i'm not concerned with seped

14:29 speed eithher

14:29 i just want one step better than (spit (print-dup somestructure) "somefile.clj")

14:29 mk: that is, are there any nice articles out there explaining what a macro is, and when they should be used?

14:29 antares_: ok. Well, query and secondary indexes in mongo are nice. But I personally will try to think hard about using PG and Riak in combination for some of my next projects.

14:30 patrikkarlin: anny one here have a project using core.logic on github i can look att

14:30 cemerick: muhoo: pandeiro was looking for: https://github.com/clojure-clutch/clutch — look under "Experimental" for the Clojure-native type that makes interacting with a couch db feel like working with a map.

14:30 mk: the articles I've seen either lose me, or claim it's too difficult to explain using a simple example

14:30 muhoo: cemerick: thanks!

14:30 technomancy: mk: this one is pretty decent: http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html

14:30 pandeiro: that's the one

14:31 * cemerick always recommends cloudant for CouchDB usage; no ops, damn fast, secondary indices, full text search, etc.

14:31 technomancy: muhoo: recently postgres added hstore, which gets you schemaless tables and is pretty badass

14:31 muhoo: nice

14:31 technomancy: I would be all over that except it's too new for the shared DBs on Heroku

14:31 RickInGA: interesting

14:31 antares_: mk: macros are a way for your code to extend Clojure compiler, in Clojure itself.

14:31 technomancy: but if your postgres is 9.1+ then you should definitely give it a look

14:32 RickInGA: technomancy: do you expect heroku will support that in the future?

14:34 jayunit100: hi guys

14:34 (:require [clojure.set :as set])

14:34 technomancy: not in the current implementation of shared DBs, but it might be possible in the future without a dedicated DB? I know apart from the fact that they understand it's something people really want

14:35 mk: I read that article before and it was very informative, but I think that when I came to the macros section it didn't all come together - I think I found it a bit brief

14:35 jayunit100: -----> java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set (NO_SOURCE_FILE:17)

14:35 (at the repl , i cant load a dependency that lein loads just fine in my normal clojure program).

14:36 mk: antares_: I think I get that part, but I'm not sure how it works, or what it's used for

14:36 RickInGA: technomancy: is there any extra cost to using couchdb for a small project on heroku as opposed to shared postgres (not that that would be my only factor)

14:36 technomancy: RickInGA: https://addons.heroku.com/cloudant it's free under 250MB

14:37 RickInGA: technomancy: awesome, thanks!

14:37 antares_: mk: in simplest cases, for "code generation" that you do in clojure itself. Any intermediate uses all lead to DSLs

14:37 technomancy: jayunit100: (:require [...]) only works inside ns

14:37 antares_: mk: take a look at query DSL example here: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger

14:37 jayunit100: oh...... ok

14:37 antares_: mk: it is done via macros, there is no other way to have this kind of DSL with just functions

14:38 jayunit100: so should i do (in-ns) when i fire up my repl?

14:38 cemerick: RickInGA: Cloudant is also free for some amount, heroku or not

14:38 jayunit100: or should i import set some other way ?

14:38 cemerick: meh, you'd think I was getting a cut :-P

14:38 antares_: jayunit100: (require '[clojure.set :as cs]) should work

14:38 technomancy: clojurebot: the ns macro?

14:38 clojurebot: Cool story bro.

14:38 technomancy: clojurebot: ns?

14:38 clojurebot: ns is unfortunately more complicated than it needs to be, but http://blog.8thlight.com/articles/2010/12/6/clojure-libs-and-namespaces-require-use-import-and-ns may be helpful.

14:39 technomancy: jayunit100: ^^ highly recommended

14:39 mk: what's the distinction between intermediate and non-intermediate uses?

14:39 antares_: mk: basically, newcomers see it as a way to do "code generation at runtime"

14:39 mk: more experienced people build DSLs with it that drastically raise level of abstraction and declarativeness of your code

14:40 mk: is the code generation view something to avoid, or a needed step?

14:40 antares_: mk: so, you can build much more complex things quickier. Of course, DSL development takes effort and is not trivial either but it is a huge productivity boost in the end.

14:40 mk: I think it is a needed first step

14:41 jayunit100: some one should write a machine learning algorithm that randomly adds/removes ' and : chars from .clj files to get them working :)

14:41 antares_: mk: I would say, see monger, korma and clojure.java.jdbc for various uses of macros

14:41 muhoo: is there a way to get the lein repl to listen on a different interface? i.e. not on localhost, or on * instead of just localhost?

14:41 antares_: mk: they vary from DSLs to much simpler code generation/duplication elimination uses

14:41 technomancy: muhoo: in lein1, you can bind LEIN_REPL_HOST I think

14:42 muhoo: thanks

14:43 mk: antares_: I don't immediately follow what's going on with monger (under "powerful query dsl"), since I don't know what the alternative is or what exactly is being done (or as you say, why it can't be done in any other way)

14:43 is there a clean example of when I'd need to generate code?

14:44 antares_: mk: take a look at mongodb shell or query docs, it will make it clearer

14:44 mk: you are building a query that has conditions, limit, offset and so on

14:44 mk: like, what sort of problem usually makes a lisp programmer think "I'm probably going to have to do some code gen here"?

14:44 antares_: mk: and those parts can be reused and compound

14:45 mk: when you see a lot of duplication, often structural duplication that a function won't help with

14:45 mk: or when you want to create a DSL for some particular problem. I believe last chapter in Clojure in Action explains that pretty well, with examples.

14:46 mk: what is structural duplication?

14:46 y3di: has anyone used c2?

14:47 technomancy: only the wiki

14:47 mk: I use if statements, and nested loops to iterate over 2d arrays - do those count?

14:49 antares_: mk: structured duplication is where you clearly see duplication between some piece of code but you cannot extract it using a function (or it won't make things any easier to understand).

14:49 mk: take a look at two examples here: https://gist.github.com/1a0449ded8ecded286d4

14:50 technomancy: I'd recommend learning more Clojure basics before picking up macros.

14:50 antares_: mk: this form of "first use let, then when/if on its only binding to do-something" is so common (regardless of what you do or what local name is) that clojure.core has a when-let and if-let macros

14:50 technomancy: once you've used them a bit, writing them will make a lot more sense.

14:50 course if you're lucky, you won't need to.

14:51 RickInGA: antares_: not to nitpick, just making sure I understand in your example (do-something) actually should be (some-fn) right?

14:51 antares_: mk: this is a simple example where extracting this duplication with a function will only make things more complicated, but since your code structure is almost identical, you can make this piece more concise using a macro.

14:52 RickInGA: no

14:52 RickInGA: (some-fn) just returns a value of a

14:52 RickInGA: it can be anything

14:52 RickInGA: antares_: thanks

14:53 antares_: mk: another common example of basic macro usage is "with X" kind of macro

14:54 mk: consider a case when you want to store a value of, say, default DB connection, then change it to something, run some code and return to the original value

14:54 mk: say to use a separate DB but just once, w/o making it default

14:55 mk: with-* macros do exactly that, very concisely. Almost all clojure database and messaging clients have them in some shape or form, like here: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/src/monger/core.clj#L88

14:56 mk: another case to consider. Imagine a code like this: (:street (:address (:profile person)))

14:56 that returns a street in person's profile address

14:56 it is a bit backwards, right?

14:56 a macro lets you make it more readable: (-> person :profile :address :street)

14:56 pandeiro: y3di: i'm starting to use it now

14:57 mk: I'm looking through the when-let example, I think I'm hung up on the fact that both let and when are themselves macros

14:57 antares_: mk: libraries like clj-time make things even more readable with it, for example (-> 2 hours ago) is probably self-explanatory to even not-so-technical people

14:57 jayunit100: hmmm this is another strange one :

14:57 ive removed ------ :main run.run ------- from project.clj

14:58 and am trying to simply launch the same project with

14:58 antares_: mk: yeah, don't focus on that part right now. Macros that use macros (deep macroexpansion) is possible and not uncommon but will only distract you

14:58 jayunit100: (user=> (use 'run.run :reload true)

14:58 but i get a dependency error in one of the clj files.

14:58 i guess lein's :main does more than just load a class

14:58 antares_: jayunit100: (use …) won't run your function

14:59 mk: technomancy: you're probably right that it'll make more sense after working with the language for a bit, but it'd be nice to have that reward now, since understanding that would probably motivate

14:59 antares_: jayunit100: yes, it compiles it and executes it

14:59 jayunit100: i dont want to run it... just load run into the class path so i can run it manually.

14:59 antares_: mk: you will come to understand all aspects and features of Clojure over time

14:59 technomancy: mk: macros are over-hyped by some

14:59 RickInGA: mk: I am in that situation to some extent, Graham tells us macros are awesome, but we have to go deep into lisp to grok them

15:00 technomancy: there are many more compelling features in Clojure that are much more practical for everyday use

15:00 RickInGA: mk: but as I have been learning Clojure, I am loving it and the way it is designed, and I don't know squat about macros

15:00 antares_: mk: don't rush or try to use features you do not fully understand. Each feature has a purpose and you will see the need for it later. When you think that something should be already available or trivial or common, ask here. Almost always there is something in clojure.core to help you or do exactly what you want.

15:01 I totally agree with technomancy. I do use macros quite a bit but I use things like protocols and higher-order functions much more.

15:01 a lot of macros make Java interop much more pleasant, like doto

15:01 but you don't have to be a macro writer to benefit from them

15:01 jayunit100: i wonder - why would ('use run.run) break in the repl even though (:main run.run) works fine?

15:02 TimMc: jayunit100: Because you're quoting the wrong thing.

15:02 technomancy: jayunit100: neither of those will work

15:02 jayunit100: i mean (use 'run.run :reload true)

15:02 antares_: jayunit100: use does soemthing very different from what you think it does

15:02 muhoo: ok, this nesting insanity is starting to look like jquery. https://refheap.com/paste/1258 i feel like i'm doing something wrong.

15:02 pandeiro: technomancy: how can i run a clj file as a script from a lein project? is it possible?

15:03 eggsby: if I have a vector of hashmaps and I want them sorted by the reverse of the first value in the hashmap, is (sort-by #(val (first %)) < coll) the idiomatic way to do that?

15:03 antares_: jayunit100: use imports (technically, refers) functions from a given namespace into the current one

15:03 jayunit100: it does not call functions

15:03 technomancy: pandeiro: lein run -m my.ns # as long as you have a -main defn

15:03 amalloy: antares_: i don't like -> for that, most of the time. a macro can make things more readable (and -> often does), but here i really prefer (get-in person [:profile :adress :street])

15:03 technomancy: not having a -main is sketchy as hell

15:04 TimMc: technomancy: FOr executable projects.

15:04 pandeiro: technomancy: and i will be able to take from stdin like that?

15:04 or do i need to use trampoline?

15:04 amalloy: eggsby: the "first" value of the hashmap? those aren't really ordered, unless what you're saying is you don't actually care about the order at all

15:04 mk: yeah, the reason I'm asking about macros is because of pg's lisp advocacy

15:04 antares_: amalloy: sure, it's just an example

15:04 jayunit100: oh ok. so why would the import fail ? Im in a proper lein project. and ... as mentioned, the project.clj file has a :main entry with the same class as the one which im *Trying* to load functions from.

15:05 antares_: mk: PG was describing a different Lisp. While Clojure is a great Lisp, it has many other nice aspects that make macros slightly less commonly used (compared to other lisps)

15:05 jayunit100: (and - when i launch the repl with the :main entry, i can run the program)

15:05 mk: the (poor) understanding of them that I have is that you can define various novel programming structures

15:05 RickInGA: mk: I am crawling my way through pg's 'On Lisp', the first few chapters are why functional programming is awesome. Translating those examples into Clojure, I have a new appreciation of how much better clojure is

15:05 jayunit100: Land of Lisp is good to

15:05 eggsby: well amolloy I have a structure like [{:a 1} {:c 3} {:d 6}] and I want to sort-by the value of the map entry. since there is only one map entry in each hashmap in the vector I need to get at it by 'first' right?

15:06 dnolen: mk: are you familiar with HTML templating?

15:06 mk: if so, macros are like HTML templates, but for your code.

15:06 TimMc: and beyond

15:07 mk: (sorry - I'm still replying to things said a page ago)

15:07 muhoo: the important thing i learned about macros is that i don't need them :-)

15:07 mk: those comments about the other language features of clojure are reassuring

15:08 higher-order functions are functions which take functions?

15:08 RickInGA: mk: take or return

15:08 antares_: mk: correct, take or return (possibly create, too)

15:10 RickInGA: mk: if you want a good overview great clojure features, this video is really good: http://vimeo.com/10896148

15:10 eggsby: will watch, ty RickInGA

15:10 mk: dnolen: that seems to be a helpful analogy

15:13 I think my main issue with understanding macros is that I don't see how they do something that can't otherwise be done, but like the channel's been saying, this is probably best solved by actually working with clojure more

15:14 jonasen: dnolen: Thanks for your comment on kibit#20. I'm writing a response but it might take a while. It's difficult to talk about core.logic when I know so little about it.

15:14 Bronsa: mk: take cond

15:14 mk: RickInGA: thanks for the video

15:14 Bronsa: you couldn't implement it as a function

15:14 dnolen: jonasen: np

15:15 TimMc: mk: Macros do not make otherwise impossible things possible.

15:15 fliebel: jonasen: That's what logic programming does to your brain. You think endlessly about what to ask, rather than how to solve a problem.

15:15 pandeiro: can anyone show me a barebones example of reading from stdin?

15:15 mk: right - well, they make things easier, or clearer?

15:15 fliebel: pandeiro: (readline)

15:16 or, (read-line) actually

15:16 TimMc: mk: Basically.

15:16 emezeske: mk: Macros are the last-resort boilerplate removal tool. Like when you have a bunch of code duplicated in two places and you just can't think of any other way to factor it out, macros might help.

15:17 jonasen: dnolen: One quick (silly) question: What's created with (defne ...)? It's not a function - is it a "relation"? Is there a anonymous version of it like "(fn ...)"?

15:17 emezeske: mk: So in that sense, yes, they can make things easier/clearer.

15:17 TimMc: mk: Sometimes they make things possible that aren't *practical* with regular functions.

15:18 s/make things possible/allow you to do things/

15:18 pandeiro: ok so (read-line) doesn't work from lein...

15:18 mk: Bronsa: hmm, that's a good example. I'm imagining passing in pairs of functions or something to a cond, but that seems ugly and not right.

15:18 fliebel: jonasen: It's like (defn foo (matche ...)) me thinks

15:19 pandeiro: and trampoline sorts me out, great

15:20 dnolen: jonasen: what fliebel said. it's just sugar over tedious unifications.

15:20 jonasen: dnolen: fliebel: so it's not wrong to call it an ordinary function

15:20 dnolen: jonasen: define (matche) expands out into a conde.

15:21 jonasen: ordinary function that contains a conde

15:21 mk: all the explanations are very helpful, thanks. I won't worry so much about macros as a major reason to use clojure

15:21 jonasen: so it must be run in the (run* ..) macro

15:22 dnolen: jonasen: yes

15:22 jonasen: dnolen: ok. Thanks.

15:25 jayunit100: sorry to bump my question but ......

15:26 Im in a proper lein project. and ... the project.clj file has a ((((:main run.run))) entry, and i can run it by launching a repl from the project root directory. But... If I try to (use 'run.run)

15:27 at the repl --- than I get a "Unable to resolve symbol: cell in this context (myfile.clj:71)" error.

15:28 patrikkarlin: core.logic question :D i have a "relation" (my-rel q) how do i easily make a list of that relation?

15:28 jayunit100: so its interesting b/c although run.run is loadable from repl ... I can't actually use the functions in run.run from the repl. maybe its a namespace issue.

15:29 dnolen: patrikkarlin: what do you mean?

15:30 patrikkarlin: say i have a number n and i whant a list of n numbers of items where they all are of my relation

15:30 might not have my termenaligy right :p

15:35 dnolen: patrikkarlin: if you query that relation you'll get back everything in it - (run [q] (rel q)), if you want n things, (run n [q] (rel q))

15:36 tmciver: jayunit100: will it run if you do 'lein run' in the project directory?

15:36 patrikkarlin: o i dont whant n things i whant q to be a list of fresh variables bound to my real

15:37 w8 for some sudocode

15:37 jayunit100: good point

15:37 @tmciver

15:38 patrikkarlin: (defn list-of [list n]

15:38 (== list (take n (repeat (rel <fresh-variable>)))))

15:38 yazirian: jayunit100: it sounds like you might have specified too deeply, try (use 'run) which imports the 'run' function from the 'run' module. this might be more obvious if your main module and function name aren't both the same word :)

15:38 tmciver: jayunit100: so does it? If not, it sounds like you just have a bug in your code relating to the var/local 'cell'.

15:39 jayunit100: oh ok

15:39 tmciver : its a bug in the code

15:39 very sorry to spam you guys with my own mistake

15:39 :(

15:40 what is a "module" in clojure ?

15:40 TimMc: It isn't.

15:41 yazirian: jayunit100: if you started from 'lein new myproject' then you would have had a 'src/myproject/core.clj' file created for you

15:41 importing myproject.core, that's a module

15:41 dnolen: patrikkarlin: that's not going to work, I probably need some context to understand what you're actually trying to do.

15:43 TimMc: jayunit100, yazirian: Clojure has namespaces, not modules.

15:43 jayunit100: ok

15:43 TimMc: Perhaps it will get a module system in the future.

15:43 jayunit100: and what is a clj file ?

15:43 what place does that reserve in clojure code

15:44 TimMc: jayunit100: As far as you need to know at the moment, one file = one namespace. :-)

15:44 jayunit100: Like in java --- class files have a specific role - they define a static namespace, etc...

15:44 ok

15:44 antares_: jayunit100: namespaces are very similar to Java packages

15:45 patrikkarlin: dnolen: so im trying to write a sudoko solver and i have a rel that is the number #{ 1 .. 9 } so my next step whuld be to make a row of items whit that rel and apply the != betwen them and by that have a valid row rel

15:45 jayunit100: but i think, with namespaces, they can be physically spread apart, unlike packages.

15:45 antares_: and most apps follow Java-like convention of "one namespaces per file"

15:45 jayunit100: correct

15:55 sjl: So I made the mistake of running leiningen without an internet connection, and now it's blacklisted Central and Clojars. How do I tell it that that's probably not a good idea?

15:55 mk: amusing. That should be a bug report.

16:01 TimMc: sjl: Poke around in .lein I guess.

16:02 sjl: TimMc: yeah, I don't see anything in there that looks like a blacklist

16:02 jayunit100: wow

16:03 mk: my .lein is empty

16:04 arohner: sjl: I don't that has any permanent side effects. It just means maven won't check that repo for the rest of the run

16:06 rudyl313: how can I download a specific version of lein?

16:06 sjl: arohner: hmm, maybe, but lein plugin install is definitely failing when trying to install cljs-template, and not checking clojars

16:07 wait a second

16:07 ugh, it *says* "unable to find resource" but I think it actually succeeded

16:19 TimMc: yep

16:19 Fails on one repo, succeeds later on another.

16:19 patrikkarlin: logic people is conde the best way to make multiple gools in a function or is there a simpler macro?

16:24 muhoo: or multiple gaols

16:24 dnolen_: patrikkarlin: if by multiple goals you mean disjunction - yes.

16:24 patrikkarlin: and that macro is ?

16:24 dnolen_: patrikkarlin: I mean yes, if you want disjunction you need conde.

16:25 patrikkarlin: i dont need branshing

16:25 (defn dist [i [h & t]]

16:25 (conde

16:25 ((!= i h)

16:25 (if (nil? t)

16:25 succeed

16:25 (dist i t)))))

16:25 dnolen_: patrikkarlin: please use gist, lisppaste, refheap, etc.

16:25 patrikkarlin: i only have on branch but it has multiple goals

16:25 kk

16:26 dnolen_: patrikkarlin: you can put multiple goals in fresh: (fresh [] g1 g2 g2)

16:26 patrikkarlin: o so i dont need to make new variables

16:27 dnolen_: patrikkarlin: no, you can also use all: (all g1 g2 g3 ...) which just sugar for (fresh [] ...)

16:27 technomancy: sjl: yeah, repo blacklisting is just for a single run

16:27 patrikkarlin: nice

16:27 technomancy: i think in lein2 we'll have more control over output like that; a lot of the messages maven emits in lein1 are garbage

16:29 hugod: dnolen_: in core.match should ([& _] :seq) match a seq with arbitrary elements, or is there some other way to do that?

16:30 dnolen_: hugod: that should probably work, still mulling over seq / vector matching. but I need like a whole free week to sort it out.

16:31 hugod: dnolen_: it gives "No method in multimethod 'to-source' for dispatch value: class clojure.core.match.RestPattern" at the moment

16:32 I guess I'll try and find a work-around

16:32 dnolen_: hugod: feel free to open a ticket, that's probably an easy one.

16:32 hugod: ok, will do

16:34 dnolen_: hugod: if it's easy I'll go ahead and fix that and cut a release.

16:35 hugod: dnolen_: thanks :)

16:36 dnolen_: hugod: note there will be a breaking change in the release, in prep for predicate dispatch. there are now predicates and guards.

16:36 code that uses :when will need to declare their predicates with defpred before using them.

16:37 mk: I just watched halloway's http://vimeo.com/10896148 - where can I find the second part presentation where he talks about state?

16:37 hugod: oo, I'll need to do some checking then

16:37 dnolen_: you can optionally switch :when to :guard to get the old behavior

16:37 hugod: ok

16:38 kalle__: hey, I want to use rabbitmq from clojure. is there a suitable lib for that? clojure-rabbitmq hasn't had any commits in about two years as far as i can tell...

16:39 mk: found it: http://vimeo.com/8672404

16:39 dnolen_: I'm realizing predicates will could be really. I think they can support arbitrary combinations of :and, :or, and :not

16:39 antares_: kalle__: github.com/michaelklishin/langohr is well maintained

16:39 dnolen_: really cool I mean.

16:39 melipone: I have a lein question. Is there a way to rename a project? Should I just change the name of the directories?

16:39 kalle__: antares_: i'll take a look. thanks mate

16:40 TimMc: melipone: That's what I do. :-/

16:40 hugod: dnolen_: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/MATCH-55

16:40 antares_: kalle__: I am the maintainer in case you have questions. Sorry about the lack of docs but the README explains how Langohr learns from other clients and embraces AMQP model.

16:40 hugod: dnolen_: predicates sound interesting :)

16:41 arohner: melipone: just rename the directories and change the name at the top of the defproject

16:41 antares_: kalle__: tests should work reasonably well as examples

16:41 dnolen_: hugod: yes, you could put a :not, and we can rewrite the following logical expression.

16:41 arohner: melipone: and at the top of each ns

16:41 melipone: arohner: okay, thanks. Just checking if there was a better way.

16:41 dnolen_: hugod: thx

16:42 kalle__: antares_: great, thanks. I'm still learning clojure so I'm sure i'll get stuck on something. learning is half the fun... tests is usually where i look first anyway so i'll start there now as well.

16:46 patrikkarlin: dnolen_: https://gist.github.com/2152689 there is a bether way to do this one right?

16:47 melipone: I didn't get an answer for my (easy) question earlier. Which library has the trace tools now for clojure 1.3.0?

16:48 fliebel: melipone: "the trace tools"?

16:49 melipone: fliebel: those that were in clojure.contrib.trace I guess

16:49 fliebel: deftrace

16:49 fliebel: melipone: there is a wiki page with the new names.

16:50 melipone: fliebel: url please?

16:50 hugod: dnolen_: is defpred the best name for something that doesn't declare a top level var?

16:50 fliebel: $google clojure new contrib

16:50 lazybot: [Clojure Contrib - Clojure Documentation - Clojure Development] http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Clojure+Contrib

16:51 melipone: fliebel: okay, thx.

16:52 dnolen_: hugod: well at the moment it is a global lookup - kinda like default hierarchies for multimethods

16:53 antares_: melipone: https://github.com/clojure/tools.trace

16:53 dnolen_: hugod: do you have a better name in mind?

16:54 hugod: whatever we come up w/ should probably at least consider the possibility of multiple hierarchies.

16:54 hugod: dnolen_: not really, maybe just predicate

16:54 I am likely to want to use them in a non-global context

16:55 dnolen_: hugod: predicate is kind of a lot to type :) I'm imagining that core.match will ship with a large number of obvious predicates and derivations, also that you can load entire Java hierarchies.

16:55 hugod: I can easily live with defpred

16:56 dnolen_: hugod: I'll ruminate on it, I'll less concerned w/ changing the name later, we're still alpha and that's just a search & replace.

16:56 hugod: sure

17:02 edw`: Has anyone made any progress on an Emacs-in-Clojure? The time is ripe.

17:03 technomancy: edw`: waiting for the concurrency branch to get merged into emacs trunk

17:04 edw: technomancy: Are you joking? I asked the question partially in jest.

17:04 dnolen_: huh, sounds like Source Mapping in Chrome is 6 only weeks out, good news for CLJS

17:04 technomancy: edw: I haven't decided yet

17:05 I don't have to decide whether I'm joking until the branch is actually merged.

17:06 edw: Looking at emacswiki.org. Contains e-mail excerpts from 1994...

17:07 Is Emacs-in-Scheme going anywhere? technomancy, you thinking of writing an elisp interpreter/compiler in Clojure?

17:08 (I like the sly lazy evaluation semi-joke, btw.)

17:08 technomancy: edw: I can't imagine it would be that difficult to adapt Nathan Sorensen's clojurescript for to elisp

17:08 except for mutable strings; I have no idea what to do about those =\

17:08 but at least it has integers! so it's a wash I guess.

17:09 cemerick: are there any cases where (not= (aget js-obj "foo") (.-foo js-obj))? (assuming "-foo" is a valid symbol, no spaces, etc)

17:09 * cemerick talking about cljs, in case it wasn't clear

17:09 edw: What got me thinking about this is that I have half of a browser Clojure data structure editor written, and I was going to support Emacs (and paredit) key bindings for it.

17:10 But it's in JS...

17:11 technomancy: well if you beat me to it, I won't be disappointed

17:12 edw: I think an Emacs-in-the-browser-in-CLJS would be pretty easy, for a generous definition of easy.

17:13 technomancy: oh, never mind

17:13 you're talking about going the other way

17:13 edw: And when I say "Emacs" I mean _an_ Emacs, something that acts like Emacs.

17:13 technomancy: yeah, I'm talking about elisp as a compilation target

17:14 mk: do you mean an editor that is hooked up to clojure?

17:15 (as html is to javascript)

17:15 Raynes: In technomancy fantasy you'd be able to hack Emacs with Clojure.

17:15 sjl: Anyone know of any still-maintained clojure templating libraries I've missed here? https://gist.github.com/2022375

17:15 edw: mk: I mean an editor written in Clojure (or CLJS) that is to its core a structural editor. I've been thinking about this since I saw the video of the "Principle-based Development" talk.

17:16 fliebel: technomancy: It seems only "cosmetic changes" are required to hack cljs to compile to scheme, since elisp is also lisp, you're only a few more "cosmetic changes" away.

17:16 technomancy: fliebel: except for mutable strings

17:16 TimMc: edw: Someone had better get a surface-syntax reader going.

17:16 technomancy: that's a disaster that's just not going away =(

17:16 amalloy: sjl: (fn [s] (str "<html><body>" s "</body></html>")) is a feature-rich one i just invented

17:16 mk: edw: link to talk?

17:16 eggsby: edw: great talk

17:17 TimMc: amalloy: Needs moar doctype.

17:17 eggsby: mk: vimeo.com/36579366

17:17 edw: eggsby: Thanks. Beat me.

17:17 TimMc: surface-syntax?

17:17 jimduey: We need a structural editor with Vim key bindings written in Clojure. :)

17:17 technomancy: elisp strings are so crazy

17:18 they're fixed-length, but you can still aset on them =(

17:18 TimMc: &(pr-str (read-string "#()")) ; edw: This does not preserve surface syntax.

17:18 lazybot: ⇒ "(fn* [] ())"

17:19 edw: Ah. Yes, I was planning on supporting that.

17:20 TimMc: A reader that can preserve comments, whitespace, and reader macros would be useful in many projects.

17:20 pandeiro: is there a clever way to know the index with doseq?

17:20 edw: TimMc: But that's where I was going to lean on the browser: encoding the surface syntax in a DOM.

17:21 TimMc: I think there's a mismatch between those, nesting or not.

17:22 edw: Hmm?

17:22 TimMc: That is, I think the data models have a false similarity.

17:23 I'm not prepared to defend that assertion, though.

17:25 edw: TimMc: I'm not thinking of a one-for-one mapping. For example, my toy version uses a pair DOM element inside of map elements to hold a key and a value element because I've noticed that odd numbers of elements inside a map are a problem I create. Similarly, I have a string element that holds strings; I don't depend on a bare text node.

17:29 mk: why is it worth pursuing such an editor in clojure, given that there are many other available editors?

17:29 edw: mk: There is one decent editor for Clojure.

17:29 mk: is it the repl?

17:29 edw: No, it is Emacs.

17:30 mk: right :)

17:30 what's the problem with emacs?

17:30 rhc: edw: with respect to editing clojure, how is it better than vim?

17:30 Raynes: I'm fine with Vim.

17:31 edw: I love BBEdit--I'm even in the credits page--but it's just not up to structural editing.

17:31 rhc: Paredit.

17:31 rhc: i was talking here yesterday about learning emacs

17:31 aperiodic: paredit.vim

17:31 Raynes: edw: Vim has paredit.

17:31 edw: Ah. OK. In that case...

17:31 rhc: keeps track of your parens or what?

17:31 lypanov: ah maybe i need to try that was missing it.

17:31 * lypanov likes rainbow parens but shall try paredit

17:31 Raynes: edw: If you want to argue Emacs vs Vim, complain about VimL.

17:32 edw: But Riasstradh would be the first to admit, paredit is ghetto.

17:32 * lypanov needs a "finish )'s in current function" shortcut

17:32 Raynes: Compared to elisp it is pretty atrocious.

17:32 Well, compared to anything really.

17:32 edw: I'm not a vi hater; I didn't realize "you" had paredit on vi.

17:32 lypanov: Raynes: i'd like to port vim to in browser clojurescript just as i once did for ruby

17:32 TimMc: lypanov: paredit will blow your mind

17:33 amalloy: lypanov: paredit does better than that

17:33 lypanov: (though for ruby i did that with curses not in browser)

17:33 amalloy: it takes some getting used to, though. as soon as you type (, the matching ) appears

17:33 lypanov: neat. thats what i need.

17:33 edw: Once you have a sorta-structural editor, you want a real one.

17:34 lypanov: i'd actually like to "invent" a visual form of clojure so that ()s just disappear. but for the moment i'll just stick to paredit.vim

17:34 muhoo: wow, couchdb is fantastic. thanks.

17:34 * TimMc mumbles something obscene about pretty-lisp

17:34 edw: I still manage to fuck up my buffers occasionally through improper killing and/or yanking.

17:35 TimMc: undo undo undo

17:35 mk: visual representations of languages are interesting, but I've never seen it done well

17:37 edw: mk: The value of structural editing isn't that it's visual (ignoring for a moment the inherent visual nature of text...) but that it enforces syntax at all times.

17:37 Or if not syntax, at least form.

17:37 "Syntax...that'll take a while."

17:39 mk: edw: why is that important?

17:39 lypanov: mk: aye thats why i haven't bothered yet. i haven't even finished joy of clojure yet so i have no right making a visual rep of it :)

17:40 rhc: lypanov: how do you like "joy of clojure"?

17:40 edw: Because doing it manually is a huge PITA. And it allows what people who write in Blub call "refactoring" to be done very efficiently.

17:40 mk: I'm thinking of changing code from one arrangement to another - in between the two, it doesn't seem important that the code is coherent

17:40 lypanov: mk: i previously wanted it so that i could make an touch / iPad based ui for editing source but realized its a stupid idea eventually as no touch ui could ever allow quick data entry for known tokens, only exploration.

17:41 rhc: loving it.

17:41 rhc: but actual coding is getting in the way alas ;)

17:41 mk: edw: but refactoring can be done as long as there is a point in time when the syntax is fine - it doesn't have to always be enforced - or so it seems to me

17:42 lypanov: do you have any examples of what sort of visual exploration you're thinking of?

17:42 lypanov: for lisp, why not enforce. nothing lost. semantically it can be incorrect but loss of syntax is silly with such minimal syntax.

17:43 for e.g. ruby yes, i agree.

17:43 ivan___: lypanov: i got the original ipad, which I used a lot as I just left my laptop at work, but then I changed jobs, and laptop is at home, and ipad sits there doing nothing... i will never git another tablet in the foresable future

17:43 edw: I can "write" a novel by clicking on pixels to spell out word with the pencil tool in MacPaint...or I can use a word processor.

17:43 ivan___: get*

17:43 lypanov: ivan___: i have and hate my original laptop because the browser is just slow enough to make the device basically unusable. i've since bought a kindle and loooooove it.

17:44 i'll buy an iPad 7 or whatever when they have e-ink. until then i don't want headaches anyway so won't touch one.

17:44 um, original ipad*

17:44 ivan___: lazybot: well, i have a quad core i7 in my laptop, its faster than my equally expensive desktop heh

17:44 or

17:44 lol

17:44 oh*

17:44 mk: I'm thinking of cases where you break syntax while moving between two valid versions of code. Imagine pasting one half of a snippet in, and then the other half

17:45 ivan___: lypanov: all this stuff about tablets replacing tv's, utter bs

17:45 patrikkarlin: i dont have a tv ;P

17:45 edw: mk: I'm simply arguing that the tools we're using are deeply retarded.

17:45 ivan___: until they come up with a method to input via thinking in a fast and efficent way, tablets, wearable computers etc are all going to be limited in use

17:45 lypanov: edw: agreed.

17:46 mk: edw: I'm with you there, and I agree with your point about structure-awareness helping with that

17:47 sjl: So of all the many "Clojure version of Parsec" projects out there, are there any that are actively maintained?

17:47 dnolen: cemerick: you have to be careful with aget vs. property access, google advanced compilation will rename "static" properties making aget not work as expected.

17:47 eggsby: mr losh

17:47 parsotron or w/e, right?

17:47 nate youngs project

17:47 sjl: Parsatron is the one that looks like it has some recent activity a few months ago...

17:47 eggsby: yeah

17:48 eggsby: I would say that is your best bet

17:48 cemerick: dnolen: that makes things more interesting; I have an (aget obj "foo") that always works, and a (.-foo obj) that always returns nil.

17:48 mk: as for visual editors, yes, text is visual, but sometimes it just doesn't compare with a picture of some sort

17:48 sjl: eggsby: ok, cool, that's what I guessed. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing one

17:50 TimMc: edw: Structure-awareness gives you basic syntactic correctness, yes -- but much more importantly it allows you to think in structures, not strings.

17:50 sjl: eggsby: wasn't there a talk about it somewhere online, or am I thinking of something else?

17:50 eggsby: sjl: ya nate young gave a talk on it at strangeloop iirc

17:50 sjl: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Parser-Combinators

17:50 sjl: aha, found it http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Parser-Combinators

17:51 eggsby: :)

17:51 sjl: ha

17:51 mk: TimMc: how does one think in strings?

17:51 TimMc: When editing JS, etc.

17:52 mk: like, passing to an eval?

17:52 eggsby: structure seems more like the OO approach, doesn't it? Where engineering is likened to architecture, how would you visualize lisp?

17:52 mk: eggsby: a tree

17:52 eggsby: How would you visualize *verbs*

17:52 mk: that would be really cool, ya

17:53 If you could see the tree visualized real time

17:53 mk: eggsby: well, as far as the code goes, you somewhat do (you have the source)

17:54 eggsby: ya the code structure does mirror the tree structure, but I just mean visually the way we are used to seeing trees

17:54 mk: but there are all sorts of interesting things missing - the data, various thread interactions, performance metrics

17:55 eggsby: http://joelneely.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/foldtreeplain.jpg?w=312&h=271

17:55 like if I could visually see something like this rendered alongside my editor

17:55 mk: eggsby: or if it was your editor

17:56 edw`: Right, that's where I was going. I want to be able to e.g. select a chunk of code and extract it into a named function.

17:57 lypanov: eggsby: while i like this for a repl. i don't think anything that departs from the presentation you edit in makes sense.

17:57 mk: lypanov: make it the presentation you edit in

17:58 edw`: you're thinking via mouse drag and drop?

17:58 lypanov: mk: i was more thinking nested rectangles with function name in the corner

17:59 imo layout of the params can provide a sufficient differentiation that most code could be layer out

17:59 actual layout is a bitch yes. heuristic hell. but still i believe its good enough.

17:59 mk: lypanov: well, outlining functions in a way that you can pick out the 'visual space' the function takes up is a good thing

18:00 this is what paren coloring does, but you have to scan around for the other paren yourself. With a box around the whole thing it's much easier

18:00 lypanov: *nod*

18:01 though you don't actually need outer level boxes, they can be collapsed.

18:01 edw`: mk: I'm thinking of an Emacs-like approach (M-x extract-expr-as-func) for now; I don't really care about crap like DnD.

18:01 lypanov: only structurally separating boxes need to actually be rendered. most can be delineated by color.

18:01 (fill color i mean)

18:02 * lypanov just started playing with raphael/clojurescript (for something utterly different) so should try the above some time

18:02 mk: it can be cursor sensitive. The point is that you lose something when you take a few milliseconds to scan for the other paren

18:02 lypanov: or when you screw up the parens ( as i'm doing frequently ) because indent isn't enforced.

18:03 does paredit.vim enforce indent?

18:03 mk: edw`: gotcha

18:04 aperiodic: lypanov: VimClojure has good indenting rules for clojure

18:05 lypanov: aperiodic: i use vimclojure but it doesn't really seem to enforce them.

18:05 i think i'd like completely auto-indent/style

18:06 mk: something that's definitely missing is a mapping between what a programmer sees on the screen, and what's actually running

18:06 aperiodic: lypanov: mine auto-indents, but i can modify the indentation if i choose. not sure if that's what you want or not.

18:07 lypanov: aperiodic: yeah i mean after a ) having the entire block autoindent.

18:07 TimMc: Have y'all seen the code overview pane in Dr Racket?

18:08 mk: at this point, you start blurring the line between interface design and coding - if what you see is some sort of advanced repl, then what you do when you code is you design a programmer's interface to the process

18:08 Raynes: lypanov: =ab

18:08 TimMc: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gJUvnpacURg/SI-cUBJB31I/AAAAAAAAADw/k434suYJVQI/s320/Picture%2B5.png

18:09 Not the best pic of it, but good enough.

18:09 lypanov: Raynes: thank you.

18:10 Raynes: for debugging wtf i did wrong that'll save me an insane amount of time. double thank you.

18:10 mk: yeah, that's in that... black-themed editor that occasionally pops up on hn. Seems like you'd no longer need the scroll bars

18:11 TimMc: OK, better version: http://plt-scheme.org/screenshots/drscheme-env.jpg

18:11 mk: furthermore, why show all the code, anyway? Just show a heatmap of where you've been looking, and typing.

18:11 clojurebot: Gabh mo leithscéal?

18:11 lypanov: mk: sublime text.

18:11 mk: lypanov: yep, that's the one

18:12 lypanov: my favorite editor, though not for a language i care for, is the code bubbles ui.

18:12 jaen: This one java ide experiment?

18:12 lypanov: imo that sort of interaction, plus some touch ui is the "future".

18:12 jaen: *nod*

18:13 mk: the problem with the outlines is they tell you nothing about what the code is doing. You can't look at part of that code and say "that's probably something that messes with the data here"

18:13 jaen: It looked pretty cool in vids, haven't tried that though; in fact I thought there was no publicly available version

18:16 lypanov: jaen: they went vs-y http://blogs.msdn.com/b/camerons/archive/2012/01/31/debugger-canvas-1-1-released.aspx

18:16 sritchie: cemerick: figured it OUT

18:16 lypanov: (makes sense tbh given the reach)

18:16 sritchie: it's a really odd bug

18:18 jaen: Huh, vs-y? Are those the same guys?

18:19 I had an impression code bubbles was for java. Did they switch the sides or I just had wrong impression?

18:19 photex: holy crap… power went out at work… workstation is back up, but now clojure-jack-in fails with SIGFPE :(

18:19 sritchie: ibdknox: you offered critical help here, asynchronously

18:19 photex: lein repl works

18:19 sritchie: ibdknox: with a little comment down here: https://github.com/ibdknox/live-cljs

18:19 photex: something in .emacs.d perhaps?

18:19 lein swank works

18:19 arrrrrrrrg

18:20 mk: lypanov: I saw that a while ago, and it was interesting, but I think a lot of it was just rearranging various components of e.g. eclipse

18:20 photex: stupid southern california brown outs

18:20 sritchie: cemerick: it looks like the Clojurescript compiler gets AOT compiled under some conditions w/ Leiningen 1.7.0

18:20 not sure sure how

18:20 but when it happens, the first time you try to save a view you get "assertion failed: can't recur here"

18:20 and from then on the cljs compiler produces malformed cljs

18:20 s/cljs/javascript

18:20 lypanov: sritchie: possibly unrelated but noir-cljs disables aot

18:21 emezeske: sritchie: The clojurescript compiler will not work when AOT-ed

18:21 lypanov: ah sorry now i see your ibdknox commentns

18:21 photex: error is raised in clojure-mode.el

18:21 sritchie: emezeske: I needed to AOT compile my main method,

18:21 photex: from clojure-jack-in-sentinel

18:21 emezeske: sritchie: There's a bug where some metadata is not saved in the AOT files that the compiler needs to work correctly

18:21 sritchie: A clojure bug that is

18:21 sritchie: which is transitively aot compiling the cljs compiler after a couple of hops

18:22 lypanov: jaen: they worked with m$ research on it. yes it was previously eclipse

18:22 emezeske: sritchie: Yeah, that is the exact thing that prompted me to write lein-cljsbuild

18:22 lypanov: jaen: m$ are doing f'n crazy crap lately.

18:22 sritchie: emezeske: the issue here is the cemerick is using the compiler to generate views for CouchDB

18:22 and that happens in-project

18:22 lypanov: (visual studio 11 beta has things like "inspect element" like hover over in web apps -> shows view code)

18:22 jaen: Well, I prefer C# over Java language-wise and quite the contrary VM and ecosystem wise.

18:23 Yeah, the web stuff in new VS is crazy ; d

18:23 sritchie: emezeske: lein-cljsbuild is great, I use it for my cljs

18:23 emezeske: sritchie: Ah, well then you're in a bind :/

18:23 sritchie: emezeske:

18:23 yup

18:23 luckily views only have to be created once....

18:23 so I can just rm -rf classes/cljs

18:23 emezeske: good to know, though, now I know what's up

18:24 emezeske: sritchie: I'm trying to track down the bug that breaks everything

18:24 sritchie: emezeske: it's a combo of that bug you described and clojure AOT compiling deps

18:25 emezeske: sritchie: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-130 is related I think

18:26 sritchie: Yeah, exactly

18:27 lypanov: jaen: im(ns)ho m$ is getting a lot right lately.

18:28 jaen: i was pushing for more of a binding style approach for apps when i found knockout which led to finding the major m$ push for functional reactive

18:28 i'd really like to an idiomatic knockout port for clojurescript

18:28 bsteuber: they better start doing something right :)

18:29 jaen: m$ is pushing for FRP? Now, that I didn't expect.

18:29 lypanov: jaen: majorly.

18:29 *massive* push for async lately.

18:30 bsteuber: they are. IE10. WP7. W8. etc. no clue what changed. but somehow...

18:30 jaen: Though they do have their ocaml knockoff

18:30 lypanov: f# 3.0 is adding some really sweet stuff.

18:30 jaen: So maybe they do feel some functional vibe

18:30 bsteuber: to be fair, .net already moves into a good direction for quite a while

18:30 lypanov: c# is getting more and more functional.

18:30 jaen: Any lsit of the sweet stuff?

18:31 bsteuber: f# is pretty neatr, too

18:31 oh you already said that ^^

18:31 lypanov: jaen: i started watching http://channel9.msdn.com/, that has most of it

18:32 jaen: Uh, videocasts : D I'm always looking for "transcript" buttons on such pages : D

18:32 lypanov: still i wouldn't want it on my server platform. just think they have good ideas wrt languages and application building.

18:32 jaen: i use mplayer at 1.7x while i tidy.

18:33 bsteuber: lypanov: Windows Phone is good now? hard to imagine..

18:33 lypanov: bsteuber: just bought a nokia lumia and really loving it. everything that iPhone sucks for lacking that android couldn't make usable.

18:33 jaen: As for knockout.js - it seems like a really nice thing to me from cursory glances I had at it

18:33 bsteuber: I'm not sure whether I should be sad or confused M$ now makes more money from android than their own OS

18:33 jaen: And yes, it would be a nice thing to have a similar framework in idiomatic cljs

18:34 lypanov: jaen: using it in production and it led to 2x js code decrease.

18:34 bsteuber: sad.

18:35 jaen: i'll start on it whenever i finish JoC :)

18:35 jaen: Sounds like a good plan ; )

18:36 bsteuber: knockout really seems cool

18:36 but weird to use html attrs for programming, though :)

18:36 lypanov: there are several others, e.g. backbone.

18:37 bsteuber: i want haml style clojure view syntax eg blah{html-attrs}[ko-attrs]

18:37 will extend hiccup whenever i get irrationally bored

18:38 bsteuber: lypanov: what's wrong with hiccup?

18:38 lypanov: lack of data-bind integration. don't want to see data-bind and its extra nesting level.

18:38 bsteuber: ah ok, thought sth. else in general

18:38 lypanov: no.

18:38 bsteuber: yes that would definitely rock

18:39 lypanov: i hated e.g. haml when i first saw it but eventually realized its the only sane pragmatic path

18:39 jaen: bsteuber: weird? From what I've seen recently everyone and his dog is using data attrs in JS since Rails proclaimed it the way ; D

18:40 lypanov: jaen: not just rails. its a html5 thang.

18:40 query was first imo.

18:40 jquery*

18:40 bsteuber: jaen: must have missed that - but my web dev carrier is quite young..

18:40 lypanov: (though maybe someone else was before even that)

18:41 bsteuber: in case you haven't already seen, i'd advise http://www.flapjax-lang.org/publications/

18:42 bsteuber: lypanov: thanks, I'll check it out

18:43 ah that's the scheme guy

18:43 shiriam krishnamurthi

18:44 jaen: As for haml, it's really cool if you consider the usual templating stuff

18:44 But since I've seen enlive I think it's even cooler

18:45 bsteuber: enlive always seemed too sophisticated for me

18:45 functions generating hiccup vecs are way simpler to use

18:46 well of course if you have to manipulate external html enlive is just great

18:46 so maybe it depends on whether or not you outsource the html to a designer

18:46 jaen: But then you loose all the potential webdesigners due to parenthesis angst ; D

18:46 bsteuber: ^^

18:46 jaen: Yeah, this.

18:47 bsteuber: well in our project, we provide the html, and our designer does just css

18:47 works pretty well

18:47 * lypanov currently does all but is a html purist, no code

18:48 muhoo: isn't cljs kind of the knockout/backbone thing?

18:48 lypanov: designers i know don't mind data-bind.

18:48 jaen: I find it really funny, that all the people at my university have parenthesis angst

18:48 lypanov: bsteuber: used to use pure.js

18:49 bsteuber: the funny thing is, even lispers have it

18:49 I found that when talking about Clojure with CL geeks

18:49 lypanov: overall i think designers dislike data-bind declarations with sane git usage less than they dislike having to add random class/id's on request

18:49 bsteuber: "uh, it has other types of parens, scary.."

18:49 jaen: I sort of have it too, I appreciate the power of LISP but still somewhat wish it to have the usual syntax ~~'

18:49 bsteuber: hahaha

18:50 bsteuber: jaen: for how long are you using lisps?

18:51 jaen: I have more of casual interest in lisp. I've read SICP but never used it for anything big.

18:51 lypanov: muhoo: cljs has very little in common with those projects. its just a different source language for generating javascript. much like coffee script for example.

18:51 bsteuber: at least for most people, it goes away after a while

18:52 lypanov: bsteuber: took around 8 months of which 5 were practical

18:52 jaen: Though I'll be using Clojure for my neural network project this semester hoping I can learn it as I go along ; )

18:53 lypanov: now clojure looks nicer to me than ruby. which since '00 has been my fave lang by far

18:53 sorry i mean 8 months / 5 *weeks*

18:54 bsteuber: lypanov: I did have some fun with haskell between ruby and clj

18:54 before of which I did common lisp

18:55 but clj is my favorite language for 2 years now, that's probably a record :)

18:55 lypanov: i played with factor and applescript (of all things) in between. and a bit of scala.

18:56 muhoo: i've put in, so far, about 150 hours on clojure, and i'm finally starting to almost start thinking in it.

18:56 bsteuber: ^^

18:56 lypanov: i actually had the experience of being 100% certain that scala was the Right Path.

18:56 then trying to use it practically and giving up after 3 days.

18:57 bsteuber: I couldn't decide whether to pick scala or clojure

18:57 lypanov: played with clojure again for the hell of it and everything Just Worked

18:57 mostly thx to lein and clojars

18:57 clojuredocs.org/ is also absolutely wonderful

18:57 bsteuber: funny how things work out

18:58 lypanov: helps that i don't believe in docs and prefer code.

18:58 bsteuber: or IDE's ^^

18:59 ok without emacs I'd probably be a sclarian now oO

18:59 lypanov: i do believe in IDEs else i wouldn't discuss visual representations. :)

18:59 i used intellij for scala.

18:59 bsteuber: but back to reactive gui programming in cljs

18:59 lypanov: but was able to stick with vim for clojure thanks to the wonderful work thats been done on the vimclojure project.

18:59 bsteuber: if I want that, which path would you recommend?

19:00 probably just pick one js lib for that and generate the attrs nicely?

19:00 lypanov: bsteuber: a) wait until i figure it out, b) figure it out and i'll wait and you tell me

19:00 bsteuber: harr

19:00 Raynes: Three cheers for Meikel Brandmeyer.

19:00 lypanov: atm i have jquery/raphael/closure library experience

19:00 Raynes: +++!

19:00 and lots of ko.js + javascript.

19:01 but i never fitted the two together.

19:01 thats my next step but a good 2-3 months away.

19:01 bsteuber: usually when I need something, ibdknox has it on github the next day

19:01 lypanov: :P

19:01 noir-cljs rocks.

19:01 bsteuber: so I'll just go to bed and check back tomorrow

19:01 ^^

19:01 * lypanov just added css reload support to a fork

19:01 bsteuber: nice

19:01 how do you do css gen?

19:01 we're still using compass

19:02 lypanov: i'm using less js

19:02 compass drives me absolutely crazy

19:02 bsteuber: but of course I'd prefer clojureland

19:02 jaen: I like stylus quite a bit

19:02 lypanov: our app is RoR + clojurescript

19:02 but i'm making the move to RoR + clojure + clojurescript the last 2 weeks

19:02 jaen: Sass/Scss put me off when I saw that variables don't have scopes in it ; d

19:03 lypanov: jaen: yeah thats ugly.

19:03 i put me off when i realized that basically it simply doesn't work.

19:03 :P

19:03 it*

19:03 i like lessjs. it does the job.

19:03 eggsby: less seems to have the most momentum

19:03 but I prefer stylus as well, I use less however :p

19:03 bsteuber: never heard of it before, interesting evening for me :)

19:03 lypanov: i'm going to play with https://github.com/edgecase/dieter in the near future.

19:04 not a fan of old sass. prefer sass so stylus also not for me.

19:04 like just pasting.

19:05 nDuff: I'm trying to use AOT compilation to implement a plugin interface for a 3rd-party tool. When loading plugins, it creates a classloader pointing to their jar, and calls Class.forName(className, true, classloader). However, clojure.Lang.Namespace.findOrCreate fails in clojure.lang.Namespace.<init> unless the uberjar is in the system classpath (not just the local classloader). What should be done differently?

19:05 bsteuber: somehow embedding stuff like css compilation into ring middleware still seems strange to me

19:06 I would always prefer to have my build tool do this kind of stuff

19:06 cemerick: emezeske: won't work, as in, under no circumstances?

19:06 lypanov: :cache-mode :development ; or :production. :development disables cacheing

19:06 weavejester: bsteuber: Clojure is compiled on the fly, so why not CSS? :)

19:06 lypanov: i'm assuming this means that dieter won't do it anyway on the actual production server

19:06 if you preload the resources

19:07 does something like unicorn exist for clojure?

19:07 cemerick: oh, namespace metadata

19:07 bsteuber: weavejester: not the clojure I deploy on our server :P

19:07 lypanov: allowing me to bind something to a socket and kill the old after a bit?

19:07 weavejester: Dieter's a little curious though, as it's basically a Ring wrapper around its own custom middleware system.

19:08 bsteuber: You AOT compile everything?

19:08 lypanov: i haven't any experience with it yet. it just popped up in search

19:08 emezeske: cemerick: Yeah, the clojurescript compiler inspects the :macros metadata on some Vars

19:08 lypanov: personally i use RoR assets at the moment and it precompiles all resources statically

19:08 bsteuber: weavejester: yes, but that's also because it's closed source

19:08 lypanov: (via closure compiler)

19:08 jaen: lypanov: stylus is pretty flexible about syntax - it can be anywhere between whitespace guided and css superset

19:08 emezeske: cemerick: Which apparently gets lost when AOTed

19:08 cemerick: emezeske: yup, http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-130

19:08 lypanov: jaen: ah, then i like :)

19:08 weavejester: bsteuber: Ohh

19:09 lypanov: jaen: superset is a real important feature for me

19:09 cemerick: reason #83 to avoid AOT

19:09 emezeske: cemerick: Yeah, that was my first real introduction to AOT pain

19:09 cemerick: It would be nice if it were fixed though

19:09 bsteuber: weavejester: but I admit it might be nice not having to launch my watchers

19:09 cemerick: weavejester: thanks for taking in that pull req

19:10 lypanov: i shall kick myself to work faster on FRP now that i know there is interest

19:10 at first it'll probably just be a lame externs file allowing knockout usage tho

19:10 cemerick: weavejester: I wonder if I can bug you enough to do an 0.6.2 release? That will make all the leiningen examples in the book compatible with 1.7 and 2.0. :-P

19:11 bsteuber: lypanov: so just using a plain js lib for this won't work?

19:11 weavejester: cemerick: I'll do it tonight.

19:11 lypanov: bsteuber: you still need an externs file for advanced closure compiler to work.

19:11 cemerick: emezeske: fixing AOT transitivity is probably an easier fix, though that's long-standing as well.

19:11 weavejester: my hero :-)

19:11 bsteuber: lypanov: that seems acceptable

19:12 well depending on the file size ^^

19:12 emezeske: cemerick: Yeah, that would be good too

19:13 sandover: anyone have a handy example of using parsatron to do something real?

19:15 lypanov: bsteuber: ko is teeny.

19:16 bsteuber: and we don't even locally have major issues with using non advanced as our base load never increases.

19:16 bsteuber: lypanov: so?

19:16 lypanov: bsteuber: (our site is a web app and not single-view driven)

19:17 but certainly for something else e.g. a content site you'll need full advanced setup.

19:17 wife tells me its 12:15 even tho for some reason my irc client says its 11:15 so apparently i have to go to bed.

19:18 bsteuber: lypanov: oh, also CET?

19:18 germany here

19:18 * nDuff finds CLJ-260, which looks about like what he's seeing.

19:18 lypanov: bsteuber / jaen et all: enjoyable chat. thx guys. will stick something on github at some point and mention something somewhere :)

19:18 bsteuber: .nl

19:19 bsteuber: I always wanted o drop by amsterdam clj group :)

19:19 maybe one day I will

19:19 * lypanov hasn't been yet so you'll probably beat him :P

19:19 bsteuber: ok, I'll go sleep as well

19:19 ^^

19:19 bye everyone and thanks for the interesting links

19:23 eggsby: Grr, I'm still struggling with java interop. In what ways are (. target member) and target/member notation different?

19:24 dedeibel_: eggsby: target/member is for static variable, like (Integer/parseInt "1")

19:24 eggsby: why can I call (. Math PI) and Math/PI and have it return the same thing, while (Character/isWhitespace \space) works though ((. Character isWhitespace) \space) returns a field not found error

19:25 tmciver: eggsby: target/member is for static member access.

19:25 muhoo: any ideas why this is giving me fits? https://refheap.com/paste/1265

19:25 it returns an seq of #<user$eval337$fn__338 user$eval337$fn__338@c67a88>

19:25 tmciver: you need (Math/PI) as PI is a static member of Math.

19:26 dedeibel_: eggsby: maybe (. can do more than / - Classes are just kind of objects too in some use cases

19:26 muhoo: what is that usr#eval337 actually?

19:26 <user$eval337$fn__337> yadda,

19:26 amalloy: you have a sequence of ten functions

19:27 muhoo: oh, they're not getting evaled

19:27 got it

19:27 amalloy: well, ten copies of the same function

19:27 &(doc repeatedly) ; muhoo

19:27 lazybot: ⇒ "([f] [n f]); Takes a function of no args, presumably with side effects, and returns an infinite (or length n if supplied) lazy sequence of calls to it"

19:27 muhoo: ok, what i'm trying to get to happen, is for that function to get executed 10 times and return a seq of those return values

19:27 Raynes: amalloy works faster when you use refheap. That should be incentive enough for people to use refheap.

19:27 muhoo: thanks!

19:28 (not (= repeat repeatedly)), doh!

19:28 perfect, thanks amalloy!

19:31 arohner: is there an inverse of bean?

19:37 TimMc: Someone was asking that...

19:37 arohner: Ask gfrederi`

19:39 arohner: https://github.com/fredericksgary/lib-2367 looks like it

19:39 arohner: TimMc: thanks, but not quite what I'm looking for

19:40 I have normal java classes that I call bean on, and I'd like to construct a new java instance from the map

19:44 TimMc: And that instance must implement certain interfaces, yes?

19:44 Oh, you want to use the same class, got it.

19:45 bean should be called unbean, and the inverse should be rebean

19:49 arohner: is there a non-special form for calling a java constructor?

19:52 TimMc: Making a macro?

19:53 technomancy: it'd be kinda cool if you could use into for that

19:55 aperiodic: i remember someone providing an example of calling a constructor via the reflector

19:55 arohner: TimMc: yes, I'm writing unbean/rebean

19:56 aperiodic: as an alternative to (eval `(ctor. ~@ctor-args))

19:56 dnolen: huh, core.logic is nifty if you want to build wacky DSLs

19:56 arohner: aperiodic: I don't know the class name at compile time

19:56 dnolen: like a macro that takes english and generates Clojure code

19:56 aperiodic: arohner: ah, no dice, then

19:56 TimMc: arohner: "new"

19:57 but again, only helpful if you're writing a macro

19:58 oh hey

19:58 &(.newInstance String)

19:58 lazybot: ⇒ ""

19:58 TimMc: arohner: ^

19:59 arohner: TimMc: aha, thanks

20:00 looks like java.lang.reflect.Constructor.newInstance() is also possible, if arguments to the constructor are necessary

20:00 technomancy: any aleph pros know if aleph uses netty for framing?

20:00 amalloy: clojure.lang.Reflector has helper methods for that kind of thing

20:02 TimMc: $inc amalloy

20:02 lazybot: ⇒ 21

20:02 TimMc: haha, Util.sneakyThrow

20:08 &(.getMethod String "contains" (into-array Class [String]))

20:08 lazybot: java.lang.NoSuchMethodException: java.lang.String.contains(java.lang.String)

20:08 TimMc: &(.getMethod String "contains" (into-array Class [CharSequence]))

20:08 lazybot: ⇒ #<Method public boolean java.lang.String.contains(java.lang.CharSequence)>

20:09 TimMc: I see, I thought Class.getMethod did reflective matching for you. Now I see why c.l.Reflector exists.

20:19 RickInGA: style question, I am writing a game similar to tic-tac-toe. I am representing game state in an atom called board. Many of my functions have to read the state of the board. Is it most appropriate to pass board, @board or not pass either, read it from global state?

20:20 dnolen: wacky DSL parsing with core.logic, https://github.com/jonase/kibit/pull/20

20:20 * technomancy would pass board

20:20 amalloy: RickInGA: have you considered writing it with no state at all? for a game as simple as tic tac toe that's not hard, and might be instructive

20:21 * technomancy concurs

20:21 technomancy: well

20:21 keeping state on the stack, no atom at all

20:22 amalloy: well, "stack". i'd mostly keep it in lazy sequences

20:22 (drop-while not-done? (iterate next-turn the-board))

20:22 RickInGA: amalloy: never considered that. I am trying to envision it....

20:23 amalloy that will be a very interesting project.

20:24 technomancy: thanks for answer, going to stick with passing board for now.

20:25 technomancy: the other option is to (reduce next-move initial-board move-seq)

20:26 RickInGA: that is such a cool idea I am going to have to do it. Good learning experience

20:27 technomancy: spoiler alert: assoc-in is your friend for dealing with vector-of-vector boards

20:28 RickInGA: its been a long time since I have written something that I knew I would look back on in horror 6 months from now, but you have to start somewhere

20:28 technomancy: if you're lucky, it's a project you can throw away

20:29 some people end up haunted by it for years

20:29 RickInGA: good point…

20:32 muhoo: so when i connect to a repl using tcp, is that a separate thread of execution from the other repl in the shell?

20:45 ataggart: Has anyone actively used Avout? I've been working with it today, and my app will (randomly?) lock up after a number of swap!! calls.

21:06 Zoka: For those of you have not seen it yesterday here it is again with bit more backgtound info:

21:06 http://noirmon.herokuapp.com/ringmon/monview.html

21:06 A web based interface to Cemerick's nREPL server incorporated within a typical Clojure web based application

21:06 (in this case a Noir Blog sample app by ibdknox). Since Heroku, allows only

21:06 one server TCP port per web app, this port (80) has to be shared between

21:07 regular app traffic and nREPL server. The REPL interface at the browser is similar to CCW Eclipse Clojure plugin,

21:07 it has 2 windows, one for submitting the Clojure forms and other (read only one) for nREPL responses.

21:07 There is also a simple chat facility between active sessions.

21:07 The REPL sessions are persistent, so if user goes offline, all his chat messages and accumulated

21:07 Clojure script output belonging to his sesion will be delivered on next visit. Script execution in most of the cases can be

21:07 stopped by 'Interrupt' button. There also tree alike monitoring data display for assorted JMX values, CPU load, and

21:07 REPL sessions info.

21:07 Note: this is not restricted environment like a Clojail - it is meant to be development tool and has

21:07 a facility to hook in authentication function to control access in real-life usage. This is just a demo for

21:07 https://github.com/zoka/ringMon/ which is in fact just a Ring middleware.

21:07 You can kill it with one line of code, as somebody did yesterday :),

21:07 but it will come back again in less than a minute. You can use a script to erase writeable files in app curent directory,

21:07 but it will still come back again since Heroku uses ephemeral file system. Heroku apps are indistructable :)

21:07 Sorry for the long ramble.

21:07 emezeske: Zoka: I think you meant to put that in a blog post :)

21:08 Zoka: I will taje it from logs:)

21:08 s /taje/take/

21:08 lstoll: Zoka: that's awesome.

21:09 technomancy: Zoka: definitely looking forward to trying that out soon

21:09 Zoka: Thanks

21:09 technomancy: also, your nick reminds me of http://zokacoffee.com, which is delicious

21:10 Zoka: No relation

21:10 technomancy: too bad, but I won't hold it against you =)

21:11 RickInGA: technomancy I told my gf about you bringing press and thermometer to session. she was really impressed with the thermometer

21:11 brehaut: i find it really weird that press coffee is so popular in america

21:12 and that filter is run of the mill; over here its the other way round

21:14 tmciver: brehaut: where's 'over here'? England?

21:14 brehaut: New Zealand

21:15 tmciver: it's gotta be late for you. What time is it?

21:15 brehaut: 2:13PM

21:15 lstoll: middle of the day

21:15 brehaut: living in the future

21:15 * tmciver still cannot get his head around that.

21:15 lstoll: Living in the future is awesome

21:16 tmciver: you guys are so lucky. I can't wait till 2:13 tomorrow!

21:19 wmealing: lstoll, au ?

21:19 lstoll: wmealing: yeah, melbourne.

21:21 Frozenlock: Is there a way in seesaw/flow-panel to make a newline? I have multiple input boxes and they all are on the same line, which is really ugly.

21:22 I would like a new line between each item : (flow-panel :items [ item-1 item-2 item3..]

21:23 RickInGA: Frozenlock: I don't know your answer, but I do know that if you can't get an answer here, you can post to the seesaw google group. Dave Ray, keeps close tabs on that

21:24 bytechunky: Does the upcoming book "Clojure Programming" from Chas Emerick et al cover Clojure 1.3.0?

21:25 Frozenlock: RickInGA: Thanks!

21:26 RickInGA: bytechunky: yes, the book "expects 1.3.0 or higher"

21:28 bytechunky: RickInGA: that's excellent!

21:29 RickInGA: bytechunky I have only looked at parts of it, but what I have read has been very helpful and very clear

21:30 I didn't understand the namespace macro until I read the explanation there

21:31 bytechunky: RickInGA: i read the first chapters of Joy of Clojure which i found pretty awesome. But i wd like to read up on some of the new stuff like deftype, defrecord, futures, promises

21:41 TakeV: Is there a way to turn symbols into strings?

21:42 apwalk: name

21:42 RickInGA: I have a function with a let in it. If I write (let (fn1 … ) (for ….) (fn2…) fn1 and fn2 get called.

21:42 If I write (let (fn1 …) (for …) fn1 and teh for loop get called

21:42 TakeV: apwalk: Thank you.

21:43 RickInGA: but I can't seem to get fn1, for and fn2 to all get called

21:46 tmciver: RickInGA: I don't follow. Perhaps you can refheap some sample code.

21:48 sjl: Anyone know why this wouldn't work? https://refheap.com/paste/1269

21:48 Is this `thrown?` thing in a Clojure test magical and unable to be used in a macro or something?

21:50 amalloy: RickInGA: laziness

21:50 tmciver: sjl: I'm not very good with macros but have you tried macroexpand-1 on a call to the macro?

21:50 amalloy: sjl: yes

21:51 RickInGA: tmciver: it is verbose… but here it is: https://refheap.com/paste/1270

21:51 sjl: amalloy: hmm, is there any way I can do what I'm trying to do here (make a shortcut for ensuring that an exception is thrown) or am I out of luck?

21:51 RickInGA: amalloy: adding another function call after the 'for' causes the for to not be evaluated?

21:51 amalloy: not exactly

21:52 you're using `for` for side effects, which it is not designed for

21:52 you should use a doseq for that

21:52 (now don't you wish you'd taken the advice to do this with pure functions)

21:52 RickInGA: amalloy: thanks, I will try that

21:52 amalloy: hehe, do you think tic-tac-toe has an "explode" function?

21:53 amalloy: sjl: include the (is) in your macro

21:53 sjl: amalloy: I tried that -- same error (no such var: .../thrown?)

21:54 amalloy: oh

21:54 ~'thrown?

21:54 clojurebot: No entiendo

21:54 technomancy: brehaut: I actually like the (hand-poured) filter better, it just doesn't travel as well

21:54 RickInGA: technomancy: kemex filter?

21:55 technomancy: RickInGA: yeah

21:55 also, aeropress is a lot nicer than french press IMO

21:55 RickInGA: technomancy: too funny, when I told gf the story, she said "I am surprised he doesn't use kemex"

21:56 technomancy: heh

21:56 as long as you get the temp right aeropress is basically impossible to screw up; pour overs are a lot more temperamental.

21:56 RickInGA: damn, now I want coffee, and its like 10pm :(

21:57 pandeiro: is aeropress the italian style one that percolates up?

21:57 technomancy: pandeiro: no, that's siphon

21:58 brehaut: technomancy: yeah, hand poured filter is my preference too (ive got a small chemex)

21:59 and preferably with single origin beans

22:00 technomancy: that's the way to go

22:00 brehaut: definately

22:01 RickInGA: I hope next year Clojurewest is in Seattle so I can find out what technomancy's favorite coffee is!

22:01 brehaut: my local roaster gets 'cup of excellence' beans for particular farms

22:01 s/for/from/

22:02 technomancy: I had a travel grinder for this trip, so that was nice

22:02 pandeiro: here in brazil the siphon is popular, i had a french press back in the states, but for me nothing beats instant

22:02 technomancy: heh

22:02 brehaut: ~guards

22:02 clojurebot: SEIZE HIM!

22:03 RickInGA: should be able to pass a parameter

22:03 ~guards pandeiro

22:03 clojurebot: It's greek to me.

22:03 pandeiro: the guards all drink instant, too RickInGA it's no use

22:04 xeqi: sjl: that doesn't work because (is ..) has a special case when the first item in the list is 'thrown

22:04 technomancy: must be tough being an IRC guard

22:04 xeqi: and it does it as part of is's macroexpansion

22:04 technomancy: single-ply toilet paper, instant coffee... at least you get a fast network connection

22:04 xeqi: before parse-error would expand

22:04 technomancy: xeqi: that drives me nuts

22:04 sjl: xeqi: ahh

22:05 technomancy: thrown needs to be its own defmacro; it's stupid to special-case it

22:05 sjl: xeqi: is there any way around that?

22:06 brehaut: technomancy: what is siphon coffee like?

22:06 xeqi: looking/thinking

22:07 technomancy: brehaut: it's basically like a science experiment: https://twitter.com/#!/technomancy/media/slideshow?url=http%3A%2F%2Fyfrog.com%2Fo0s1ngj

22:07 bunsen burner and all

22:08 brehaut: technomancy: amazing

22:08 how does it taste?

22:08 pandeiro: wait how's it different from a kettle? it's just a kettle with a coffee filter in it

22:08 brehaut: sedimenty \thats a word

22:09 brehaut: it looks kinda like a stove top espresso but more complicated?

22:10 pandeiro: cleaning it is the only complicated part

22:10 technomancy: it tastes like SCIENCE

22:10 brehaut: bahaha

22:10 pandeiro: instant?

22:10 instant is science

22:11 brehaut: enough of this instant trollery

22:13 RickInGA: oh? is instant karma going to get him?

22:13 pandeiro: i actually drank the stuff for about 2 months straight when i started drinking coffee again... it was a gateway drug ... after i'd been off the stuff for a couple years

22:14 i think the reason paper is best is the smell, at least with the italian one it doesnt fill the kitchen the same way

22:18 RickInGA: amalloy: thanks, doseq worked!

22:19 Frozenlock: If I want to manipulate my local IP address (say to get a broadcast address), what would be the best way? (.getHostAddress (java.net.InetAddress/getLocalHost)) + some regexp replacement, or is there a more elegant way?

22:33 xeqi: sjl: you could do something like https://refheap.com/paste/1271

22:34 where you special case parse-error the same way as thrown

22:34 but thats all I can think of

22:34 sjl: xeqi: ah... seems a bit ugly, but it works...

23:14 technomancy: Zoka: lein pom && mvn dependency:tree should help you track down the hiccup dep

23:24 xeqi: technomancy: pomegranate can figure out a dependency tree; know anyone working on a plugin for lein 2?

23:25 might need to add that to my task list

23:28 technomancy: xeqi: cemerick has a gist, it's just not hooked up yet

23:28 I'd like to add it to the deps task; maybe "lein deps :tree"

23:51 rhc: question about developing in the repl, if i have some long running thread and i want to update some event handler in the thread, should i just use a clojure ref while i'm doing development and update the ref in the repl with (require .. :reload) (dosync (ref-set ..)), or is there a better way so i dont have to add this wrapper only for repl dev?

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