#clojure log - Feb 08 2012

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0:44 akhudek: If col is a sorted-set with custom comparator, having (disj col (first col)) not change col must mean that the comparator is buggy right?

0:46 amalloy: mmmm, not necessarily. it might be an empty set

0:47 akhudek: definitly not empty :/

0:47 amalloy: then i think it must be broken somehow

0:48 akhudek: ok, thanks

1:16 muhoo: what does lein trampoline actually do? jump execution to a vector in ROM?

1:16 only time i've heard the term trampoline used was in embedded microcontrollers

1:32 sgronblo: Is there some pattern/function for getting the first true value returned by a list of functions?

1:35 ibdknox: ,(first ((apply juxt [true? false? coll?]) []))

1:35 clojurebot: false

1:35 ibdknox: ,(first (filter identity ((apply juxt [true? false? coll?]) [])))

1:35 clojurebot: true

1:35 ibdknox: lol

1:35 not what you wanted

1:36 I wanted juxt in there, but I guess not

1:36 ,(first (filter identity (map #(% []) [true? false? coll?])))

1:36 clojurebot: true

1:38 ibdknox: sgronblo: the not retarded answer: (first (filter #(% []) [true? false? coll?]))

1:39 Raynes: ~amalloy

1:39 clojurebot: amalloy is <amalloy> just use juxt, it'll be great

1:40 ibdknox: actually, you wanted the value so the previous one is correct

1:40 that last one returns the function

1:40 Raynes: ibdknox: Bed time, perhaps?

1:40 ibdknox: yeah

1:40 I stayed up way too late and got up far too early

1:43 muhoo: #(% []) ? so, (true? []) why the empty list there?

1:43 ibdknox: the vector represents some value you might execute the function against

1:43 muhoo: ah

1:43 ibdknox: if they're all zero arg functions you could remove it

2:04 sgronblo: ibdknox: Yeah, but I was more interested in if this is a widely used pattern in clojure/FP?

2:13 scottj: sgronblo: have you seen some-fn?

3:43 Blkt: good morning everyone

3:50 seancorfield: hi Blkt

3:58 Blkt: hi seancorfield :D

4:31 seancorfield: I'm not usually online in the middle of the night (for me)... it's kinda quiet here...

4:33 ejackson: yeah, the euro/UK crowd is not so big yet

4:33 perhaps EuroClojure will raise pulses som

4:41 clgv: I think there are fewer IRC using Clojurians in Europe.

4:42 lucian: i'm un the UK

4:42 s/un/in/

4:42 i don't use clojure much, though

4:44 ejackson: these kids and their bookface.

4:45 lucian: ejackson: i had to google bookface ...

4:45 ejackson: glad to hear it. welcome, grey hair.

4:46 lucian: ejackson: i'm 22...

4:47 ejackson: like I said

4:47 gramps

4:50 seancorfield: I'm from the UK but live in San Francisco (well, about 35 miles SE).

4:51 I did some Lisp and FP stuff at University (Surrey) back in the *cough* early 80's...

4:51 ejackson: I'm from SA but live in the UK. Love postmodernity !

4:52 seancorfield: One of the UK ThoughtWorkers has just moved over here and is asking about running Clojure dojo events which would be cool.

4:52 Fossi: well, i guess most of the people from europe idle :)

4:53 seancorfield: I run the San Francisco Clojure meetup and the members have asked for more hands on stuff so that would fit in really well... He used to organize the London Clojure dojo events... Lucky for us :)

4:53 Wish I could be in the UK for EuroClojure... it would be fun to see how the european Clojure community compares...

4:54 clgv: oh, there is a EuroClojure event?

4:54 * lucian is too poor for even europython :)

4:54 Fossi: no there is no eureclojure event

4:54 clgv: lol, that site is broken: http://euroclojure.com/2012/

4:54 Fossi: at least not unti l i booked my cheap ticket :>

4:56 seancorfield: How much Clojure in production is there in Europe then?

4:57 ejackson: seancorfield: For me it will be nice to be non-jetlagged as well as exhausted, like at the Conj

4:57 seancorfield: not a lot

4:57 Fossi: i know about 10ish in germany

4:57 ejackson: in the UK some of the banks have desks doing it, and there are a few of us indies scattered about the place

4:57 Fossi: depends on how you count "production" though

4:59 lucian: ejackson: banks? really?

4:59 ejackson: the Thoughtworks guys know it, but as far as I know, haven't found a client willing to use it

4:59 seancorfield: ejackson: I'll be in the UK at the end of September - my wife is judging a cat show in Stevenage on September 22/23 and two weeks later she's judging in Moscow so we'll hang out with friends and family in between... Hoping for a tech conference in London or Amsterdam in that period too so I can turn it into a business trip :)

5:00 ejackson: lucian: yeah, at least two (from the calls I get from recruiters desperate to find anybody who speaks this.... what's it called again ?)

5:00 lucian: ejackson: really? i know some clojure :)

5:01 ejackson: seancorfield: aah yes... expenses :)

5:03 seancorfield: She's judging a cat show in Australia in August but we're paying for those flights ourselves. At least the Stevenage / Moscow clubs will cover her airfare to England / Russia. But not mine.

5:04 ejackson: also, the guys at metail.co.uk have some Clojure in production

5:05 seancorfield: Seems to be a lot more Clojure sneaking into production over here...

5:05 lucian: the java angle seems to be paying off

5:06 seancorfield: That's how we started using Clojure - we're already on the JVM... we tried Scala but it didn't really fit the team's "culture"...

5:07 lucian: also, scala's syntax is disgusting

5:09 seancorfield: LOL, I got into trouble for saying that in public...

5:09 lucian: seancorfield: how so? it's quite an obvious fact

5:09 it's almost as stupidly complicated as C++'s

5:09 Fossi: no

5:09 it's far more stupid

5:10 lucian: (also, i'm saying this as a pythonista, not a list weenie)

5:10 s/list/lisp/

5:10 * seancorfield was on the ANSI C++ Standards Committee for eight years :(

5:10 lucian: Fossi: you must not know C++ syntax particularly well :)

5:10 Fossi: the method-binding-changing: alone makes me *RAGE*

5:10 on the other hand

5:10 if i ever have to use scala i can make a lispish dialect

5:11 by only using : methodnames and putting paranthesis everywhere :>

5:11 lucian: i see only one advantage with scala: more similar to java (which also implies easier to interact with java machinery)

5:12 Fossi: that's also quite a big downside too

5:12 pandeiro: anyone know why GClosure's History fires event callbacks twice on every hash change? i am using cljs one's wrapper but it seems straightforward enough

5:12 Fossi: as in: in reallife projects styles get mixed up like *hell*

5:12 it's a major pita

5:12 you never know where a functional part starts and where it will end suddently

5:13 seancorfield: lucian: i actually think clojure's java interop is better than scala's

5:13 Fossi: pandeiro: i think some browsers actually do that

5:14 lucian: seancorfield: maybe. it's still easier to extend a java class in scala, and then furter extend in java

5:14 Fossi: yeah, like that's a good thing :>

5:15 lucian: Fossi: only if someone enforces java

5:15 pandeiro: Fossi: thanks for the lead, hadn't considered that

5:15 seancorfield: lucian: yeah, but in scala it's real easy to get munged class names unless you steer clear of nearly all of scala's useful features

5:16 lucian: yeah, i guess

5:16 Fossi: pandeiro: just a hinch

5:16 * lucian wished for (defclass a couple of times

5:21 * seancorfield is watching the 1986 SICP lectures

5:21 ejackson: seancorfield: The one where he gets his Fez out is my favourite thing ever

5:22 lucian: seancorfield: ah, good idea. i've been reading the book and having to re-read paragraphs a lot

5:23 pandeiro: seancorfield: for the awesome intro music, right?

5:27 seancorfield: pandeiro: it'll drives me nuts by the end of the course, i'm sure...

5:27 sussman has really animated eyebrows... :)

5:27 pandeiro: but by then you'll be that wizard so...

5:28 seancorfield: he was great at the conj... covered a lot of ground in an hour... took me back to my university days at times :)

5:29 lucian: we did java at uni ...

5:30 ejackson: i did assembly only, don't complain

5:30 :P

5:31 lucian: heh

5:33 seancorfield: java didn't exist when i was at uni ... heck, c++ didn't exist until i was doing my phd!

5:34 (not that i did c++ at uni... didn't start that until '92)

5:35 ejackson: i remember being super excited one day to get my hands no a C compiler for my chip. SO HIGH LEVEL !

5:36 java did exist though :P

5:38 seancorfield: This is turning into the Four Yorkshiremen sketch... :)

5:39 lucian: heh

5:48 ejackson: hehe, in snow this deep !

5:52 pandeiro: Fossi: you were right btw, issue with double firing of hash-change events is Chromium-specific. I would never have thought...

5:57 Fossi: pandeiro: i had a similar problem lately, that's why i suspected it :)

5:59 pandeiro: Fossi: actually Firefox does same... b/c there's a onpopstate event and an onhashchange event and GClosure's history watcher fires on each for some reason... so you always get a double navigation event

6:01 lucian: pandeiro: sounds like a bug in GClosure's history watcher. i'm using Backbone to do the same thing and it fires one of the two

6:03 pandeiro: lucian: good to know... i could fall back to GClosure's History (not Html5History) ... tbh probably easiest to just write it with plain JS

6:03 lucian: pandeiro: if i were you i'd write my own history watcher in cljs, i think

6:09 pandeiro: lucian: yeah, that's what I meant... I'd also like to submit an issue to GClosure but have no idea how/where or even what version I am using

6:09 lucian: curious, are you using backbone from cljs?

6:10 lucian: pandeiro: no, CoffeeScript

8:39 clgv: consider the following: (import 'java.lang.management.ManagementFactory) (ManagementFactory/getOperatingSystemMXBean) on a linux java I get a UnixOperatingSystemMXBean from the second form. what do I get on windows? can anyone try?

9:20 jkdufair: any of the authors of any of the clojure books here, by chance?

9:24 clgv: can someone with windows and java 6 (or 5) try the following (import 'java.lang.management.ManagementFactory) (ManagementFactory/getOperatingSystemMXBean) and tell me if the returned object has a getProcessCpuTime method?

9:28 jkdufair: clgv: it seems to

9:29 i'm on java 1.6.0_30 on windows 7

9:30 clgv: ok

9:30 thx

9:30 jkdufair: np. curious: what are you writing?

9:32 clgv: I need the used cpu time to estimate parallel execution ratio

9:32 jkdufair: ah cool

10:18 Fossi: any word yet on who wants to give talks at euroclojure?

10:21 cemerick: I'm sure they're going to get a pile of proposals.

10:22 Fossi: guess so too :)

10:24 dsabanin: hey guys

10:24 I wonder what is a good way to make this: (contains? ["abc"] "abc") to return true

10:25 I mean, is there something other than contains? that would work the way I expect?

10:26 ordnungswidrig: dsabanin: ,(some #{"needle"} ["hay" "needle" "hay"])

10:26 cemerick: ,(some #{"x"} ["x"])

10:26 clojurebot: "x"

10:27 dsabanin: nifty! thanks :)

10:30 should that work if my collection is clojure.lang.ArraySeq?

10:30 this is args array I get in main func

10:30 ordnungswidrig: should work with any sequence

10:31 dsabanin: I get Exception in thread "main" clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$-main$fn

10:31 on: (some #("--client") args)

10:31 ouch

10:32 sorry :)

10:32 I'm newbie :D

10:54 jkdufair: can anyone suggest why 'read-line seems to work in a repl (and even in slime when wrapped in 'swank.core/with-read-line-support but does not work via "lein run"?

10:55 humasect: :dev-dependencies ?

10:56 jkdufair: i have swank-clojure in :dev dependencies

10:56 but i tried it without the wrapper

10:57 humasect: hmm. i use emacs

10:57 jkdufair: i do too :-)

10:57 humasect: clojure-jack-in ? =)

10:57 jkdufair: works great there

10:58 trying to build a standalone app

10:58 humasect: ahh standalone with repl? how come ?

10:58 jkdufair: standalone w/o repl

10:58 hence the lein run

10:58 humasect: lein repl should work if clojure-jack-in works

10:58 jkdufair: lein repl works fine. just not lein run

10:59 humasect: ah hmm.. if using swank there, perhaps move to :dependencies if lein run doesn't look at :dev-dependencies

11:01 jkdufair: not using swank

11:02 commented it out. same issue

11:05 humasect: what i mean to say, that lein run does not use dev-dependencies

11:05 if using the dependencies in the app itself, perhaps add them there instead.

11:06 jkdufair: i took the deps out of the app altogether

11:07 humasect: those are needed

11:07 raek: jkdufair: there is another bug/problem with read-line and lein run. it is actually a bug in ant

11:07 jkdufair: ah fun. any workarounds?

11:08 humasect: to be clear, my suggestion is to move dev-dependencies to dependencies. and see what happens after lein deps; lein run

11:08 raek: jkdufair: there are some threads on the leiningen google group about this

11:09 jkdufair: ok. i'll look. thx

11:28 gf3: technomancy: hola, I'm having an issue starting the latest swank-clojure standalone → http://cloud.gf3.ca/E25Z

11:29 technomancy: and `lein swank` dies after a few seconds → http://cloud.gf3.ca/E1K8

11:46 brett_h: how can I list the available methods on an instance at the repl?

11:49 mdeboard: brett_h: You mean like the clojure equivalent of dir()?

11:51 brett_h: ching chong potato

11:51 raek: brett_h: if you use emacs you can use C-c I

11:51 brett_h: thanks

12:01 technomancy: gf3: sure, if the port is taken try specifying another (lein swank 4006) or better yet, use M-x clojure-jack-in

12:01 gf3: technomancy: it, unfortunately, fails for every port

12:02 technomancy: also unfortunate, but I must use the standalone because I am using Slimv

12:03 amalloy: wow, i don't think i'd have the patience to try all 64k ports

12:05 gf3: amalloy: ಠ_ಠ

12:06 technomancy: if Java is reporting "Address in use" for every single port on your machine it seems like swank not working is the least of your worries =)

12:06 seriously though; I've never heard of that

12:08 amalloy: i bet it's not the swank port that's in use, it's port 80 which he tries to listen to at compile-time via an init.clj or something

12:08 hiredman: amalloy: I like it

12:10 amalloy: though the stacktrace sure looks like it's from swank, now that i look closer

12:16 technomancy: I love how the exception message doesn't even tell you which port had the conflict

12:17 gf3: technomancy: it's very helpful

12:41 technomancy: jkdufair: you probably want lein trampoline run

12:41 gotta head off, but try lein help trampoline

12:42 jkdufair: technomancy: funny i was literally just reading that in the docs

12:42 thanks so much

12:43 argh. cygwin vs. java = jkdufair fail

12:44 probably time to just install linux in a vm on my computer

12:44 or save my pennies for a mac

12:44 anyone doing clojure on windows with emacs/slime/swank/lein?

12:53 romain_p: Hi everyone, could someone point me to a good korma tutorial?

12:53 (without lobos or such...)

12:53 brett_h: more than http://sqlkorma.com/docs ?

12:54 romain_p: brett_h: yup, in particular I would like to understand the mapping between tables and korma entities

12:57 brett_h: there is a blog post that describes a blog engine that uses korma, but it also uses lobos to create the DB schema...

13:00 jaley_: I'm getting a stack overflow error with 1024 visible lines in the stack trace, all in clojure.core... any suggestions as to how i could've caused that to happen? :s

13:01 TimMc: Nothing obvious from that description.

13:01 yawNO: wrong recursion?

13:01 just guessinh

13:02 jaley_: yawNO: well, I'm using loop and recur

13:03 yawNO: recur must be in trailing position

13:03 jaley_: yawNO: for 20,000 iterations

13:03 yawNO: (am i right?)

13:03 jaley_: yawNO: yeah well it won't compile unless it is, right?

13:03 AimHere: I think clojure detects if it's in tail and complains

13:03 yawNO: no clue

13:03 i think AimHere is right though

13:05 TimMc: &(fn [x] (recur 6) 7)

13:05 lazybot: java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: Can only recur from tail position

13:05 TimMc: jaley_: Paste your stacktrace on refheap.com

13:06 jaley_: TimMc: ok will do. I've canned it right now because it makes emacs die somewhat, but I'll get it back and ping in here when it's read (takes a few minutes, processing more data than my laptop can handle)

13:17 TimMc: not sure if there's really any information in this... https://refheap.com/paste/682

13:18 TimMc: is the problem possibly that I just have too many next lazy seqs?

13:18 TimMc: I meant *nested*, not next

13:18 amalloy: $google stackoverflow clojure prime dbyrne

13:18 lazybot: [recursion - Recursive function causing a stack overflow - Stack ...] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2946764/recursive-function-causing-a-stack-overflow

13:19 amalloy: jaley_: same problem as that one

13:19 except you're calling concat rather than filter/remove

13:20 jaley_: amalloy: yeah i have a remove

13:20 amalloy: nice guess! :)

13:20 amalloy: &(first (reduce concat (repeat 2000 '(1))))

13:20 lazybot: java.lang.StackOverflowError

13:20 amalloy: not a guess; the stacktrace has all the information i need :P

13:21 jaley_: amalloy: will doseq with :when work?

13:21 amalloy: uh

13:21 it won't do the same thing? i can't answer that question

13:22 like, doseq is for mutation and side effects over an existing sequence; remove and concat are for building sequences

13:23 jaley_: amalloy: sorry yeah I was forgetting you can't actually see my code for a minute there... whoops. OK thanks for the help, problem solved

13:37 jsabeaudry: Is there a way to programmatically obtain a list of all libraries loaded in the current project and their version? (from within the project)

13:37 TimMc: &(loaded-libs)

13:37 lazybot: ⇒ #{cd-client.core cheshire.core cheshire.factory cheshire.generate cheshire.parse clj-config.core clj-http.client clj-http.cookies clj-http.core clj-http.util clj-time.core clj-time.format clojail.core clojail.jvm clojail.testers clojure.contrib.zip-filter clojure.con... https://refheap.com/paste/683

13:38 TimMc: Oh, version? Dunno.

13:39 jsabeaudry: You mean, get the deps listed in project.clj?

13:40 jsabeaudry: TimMc, Yes, recursively

13:40 TimMc: recursively...

13:40 jsabeaudry: well, not recursively is a nice first step

13:42 ibdknox: so basically you want the dependency graph?

13:43 jsabeaudry: ibdknox, Yes, well a flattened version of it would be fine, just libraries loaded and their respective versions

13:49 TimMc: jsabeaudry: `lein pom; mvn dependency:tree`

13:50 For some reason I thought you wanted to do this from inside Clojure.

13:56 hagna: so if I don't declare a variable dynamic what's the big deal?

13:57 jsabeaudry: TimMc, I do want it to do from clojure, from the project itself, think of an about page where you could see all the libs that are used in the project

13:58 TimMc, I guess (loaded-libs) is the closest thing and I'll have to let go the versions...

13:58 TimMc: hagna: Then you don't get to use (binding ...) on it, or some other value-altering operations.

13:59 No biggie.

13:59 ibdknox: TimMc: Are you starting the NoBiggie movement?

14:01 jsabeaudry: ibdknox, Found out about jayq yesterday, I think that lib is going to be very popular, is it the death of pinot?

14:01 TimMc: ibdknox: what

14:02 ibdknox: jsabeaudry: not the death :) The rebirth, all the other parts of pinot are in their own libs

14:02 TimMc: NoSQL, NoOps, NoBiggie?

14:04 technomancy: this heroku survey should allow you to check multiple boxes :p

14:05 technomancy: ibdknox: the leiningen one?

14:06 ibdknox: technomancy: no, I suspect you actually had nothing to do with this one :) I got some developer survey this morning

14:06 from Heroku

14:06 technomancy: oh, heh

14:06 TimMc: ibdknox: Hah! Got it.

14:06 ibdknox: :p

14:06 technomancy: my survey's way better

14:07 ibdknox: the one you had a bit ago? I filled that one out

14:08 apparently people are getting interested in CLJS: https://github.com/languages/Clojure lol

14:09 emezeske: ibdknox: the exhibitionist!

14:09 ibdknox: lol

14:10 I often find lots of neat things people are working on through that list

14:11 emezeske: how're the libs working out?

14:11 y3di: has anyone built anything noteworthy in clojurescript yet?

14:12 ibdknox: y3di: not quite ready for the public yet, but in the next month or so I'll be releasing something sizable

14:12 emezeske: ibdknox: great! I have 90% of my stuff transitioned from my ad-hoc stuff to your libs now

14:14 y3di: ibdknox: can you say what we should be expecting? or is it a surprise?

14:14 emezeske: ibdknox: crate is very nice, hopefully I will contribute to it soon with more page/form helpers

14:15 ibdknox: y3di: a fun way to play with/learn a little clojure :)

14:15 emezeske: cool

14:15 I was just lazy and didn't port all of them over :)

14:16 TimMc: From "Most Watched Overall": richhickey / clojure-contrib

14:16 :-(

14:16 emezeske: ibdknox: should not be hard to do with the foundation you have in place.

14:16 ibdknox: TimMc: I know :(

14:16 emezeske: yeah, should be super easy :)

14:17 about 100 more watchers and Noir will kick it off the list

14:18 emezeske: ibdknox: hopefully I'll release this thing I made with fetch soon. It's a macro that lets you create a google app engine datastore record with validation and a full CRUD API, in maybe 5 lines of code

14:18 ibdknox: sweet

14:19 emezeske: It used to build the CRUD API out via a bunch of REST-ful routes in compojure

14:19 But with fetch, like 50% of that code melted away

14:19 ibdknox: RPC ftw

14:19 emezeske: mmmhmm!

14:20 muhoo: where is fetch?

14:20 googling fetch is.... unsatisfying.

14:21 ibdknox: http://github.com/ibdknox/fetch

14:21 muhoo: thanks

14:21 see, all i needed to know is who wrote it, then it'd have been easy to find :-)

14:21 ibdknox: hehe

14:22 muhoo: do you accept patches for readme's ?

14:23 pandeiro: ibdknox: webapp clojurescript ide? :)

14:24 ibdknox: pandeiro: haha a little, but that's not the real thing

14:24 muhoo: depends on the patch ;) I didn't mean for these to be fully released quite yet

14:24 hence why they're not my normal level of documented

14:24 muhoo: i was just enjoying the README.md

14:25 yeah, if it abstracts AJAX away with clojure, that will be very helpful

14:25 pandeiro: ibdknox: a cljsfiddle would be pretty sweet...

14:26 ibdknox: pandeiro: That wouldn't be too hard to build

14:26 pandeiro: i was thinking about it yesterday

14:26 ibdknox: TimMc: what ended up happening with the CLJS repl?

14:26 pandeiro: i even went down the websocket rabbithole

14:26 TimMc: ibdknox: It's in the freezer.

14:26 ibdknox: lol

14:26 TimMc: I don't feel like beating my head against namespace issues.

14:27 muhoo: i'd rather have somethig more like slime

14:27 which, iirc, cljs already has

14:28 pandeiro: muhoo: i don't think cljs works with slime

14:28 ibdknox: there's some way to run the cljsrepl in emacs

14:28 I couldn't get it to work with vimclojure :(

14:28 pandeiro: totally yeah but slime is something else

14:28 ibdknox: ah

14:28 pandeiro: slime has... AUTOCOMPLETE

14:28 ibdknox: oh

14:29 pandeiro: and a bunch of other stuff

14:29 but it got me at autocomplete

14:30 muhoo: heh, with M-/, everything has autocomplete :-P

14:39 jkdufair: so cljs is feature-complete and runs on the js vm and does not require the jvm?

14:40 pandeiro: jkdufair: requires jvm to compile, still

14:40 jkdufair: ah ok. pretty cool, nonetheless

15:13 TimMc: brehaut: We were talking about 'reverse and conjugation the other day. If I write (defn assoc-meta [metable & kvs] (with-meta metable (apply assoc (meta metable) kvs))), is that a conjugation on assoc?

15:15 amalloy: (aside: you know about vary-meta, right?)

15:16 * technomancy was just the other day needing vary-non-meta

15:16 technomancy: actually that's not true; nm

15:17 brehaut: TimMc: let me get my brain engaged

15:17 TimMc: amalloy: Looks about right, thanks.

15:22 brehaut: TimMc: yeah i think it might be a conjugation

15:25 TimMc: brehaut: I was unsure because reverse is self-inverse.

15:25 brehaut: TimMc: its a little confused because a bunch of the functions take multiple args

15:26 TimMc: the example that made it really clear for me was lines and unlines in haskell forming a dual

15:27 jcrossley3: if i have an object from a 3rd-party lib that implements java.util.Map, can i "extend" it to implement clojure.lang.IPersistentMap as well?

15:33 amalloy: jcrossley3: no; you can read it like a regular map but you can't "assoc" it

15:33 if you want to, just dump it into a clojure map with into (easy, since you can read it as if it were one already)

15:35 jcrossley3: amalloy: thanks

15:37 amalloy: would that be lazy? or is there a fn i could call that would turn it into a map without realizing everything?

15:37 amalloy: maps ain't lazy

15:38 brehaut: TimMc: https://gist.github.com/1773494

15:39 alexyk: so what's up with textmate-clojure? it still wants cake

15:39 brehaut: wow, thats still maintained in any form?

15:40 alexyk: brehaut: cake?

15:40 brehaut: textmate-clojure

15:41 alexyk: brehaut: that's what I'd like to know. The world stops in the summer of 2011, for cake and all cake-based things. Did leon took over completely and is a superset of cake now?

15:41 lein

15:42 brehaut: lein and cake are in the process of merging

15:42 i believe the expression (merge-with (comp technomancy raynes ninjudd) lein cake) is taking some time to evaluate

15:43 alexyk: ah, flatland/cake is updated 1/23/2012

15:43 lancepantz

15:43 so enlighten me, lein shows a server port now when I say leon repl. Is it doing two JVMs as cake did?

15:48 jsabeaudry: Is there a way to tell lein to optimize for speed when creating a uberjar?

15:49 TimMc: jsabeaudry: You can avoid the AOT compilation entirely with the lein-jit plugin I wrote.

15:50 Somelauw: I am bored

15:55 jsabeaudry: TimMc, Interesting, didn't know that existed, however I'm am not concerned about portability, I'm investigating cheap ways of improving performance, I already have the warn on reflection setup for example

15:56 TimMc: jsabeaudry: Oh, you want the resulting jar to be fast, not the creation process.

15:56 Yeah, definitely give lein-jit a miss, then!

16:04 arohner: in 1.3, can I declare a var :dynamic after the fact?

16:05 Raynes: arohner: You can call setDynamic on it.

16:06 arohner: yeah, I just realized that

16:06 thanks!

16:11 romain_p: stupid korma question: if I want to put each defentity in its own namespace (foo.models.user, foo.models.post) how do I avoid circular dependencies when declaring relationships ? (post belongs to user, user has many posts)...

16:11 mebaran151: ure

16:11 romain_p: stupid korma question: if I want to put each defentity in its own namespace (foo.models.user, foo.models.post) how do I avoid circular dependencies when declaring relationships ? (post belongs to user, user has many posts)...

16:11 mebaran151: sorry about that; emacs buffer switch fail :(

16:11 romain_p: oops

16:11 Raynes: Double fail.

16:13 ibdknox: romain_p: I stick the entity definitions in one file usually, and then have all my logic for them in their own files

16:13 romain_p: ibdknox: OK, will try that way

16:16 TimMc: ibdknox: Yeah, just put them all in a .h files...

16:16 romain_p: ibdknox: do you ever think about porting noir-blog to korma? That would make a nice tutorial

16:17 ibdknox: romain_p: seems like something someone in the community could do :) If I manage to find some free time, there are a few things like that I'd like to do though.

16:18 TimMc: Oh god... header files? it pains us. :p

16:18 ~guards

16:18 clojurebot: SEIZE HIM!

16:19 TimMc: It's funny because it's true.

16:19 ibdknox: I know :( Unfortunately, I'm not sure of a better solution to get around circular dependencies in that case. They are inherently interdependent

16:20 the only thing you can do is factor the common bits out, which would be the entities.

16:21 it's not often that the single pass nature of Clojure bothers me, but when it is an issue, it ends up being a bit ridiculous

16:31 TimMc: Everything in one file. Done.

16:32 I hope you like scrolling.

16:32 Raynes: TimMc: Have you seen jedahu's story?

16:32 TimMc: nope

16:32 Is that the doc app?

16:32 Raynes: https://github.com/jedahu/story/blob/master/src/story/core.clj

16:32 megafile

16:33 TimMc: Can't be longer than clojure/core.clj

16:33 Raynes: It isn't, but give it a couple of months.

16:33 ibdknox: I start getting antsy at around 500 lines

16:33 TimMc: which I don't even try to open in Firefox

16:33 Raynes: jedahu lives by the file, dies by the file.

16:41 seancorfield: longest file at World Singles is 600 lines

16:41 we have one at 316 lines, another at 247, everything else is below 200

16:43 romain_p: 849 lines? That's a small ocaml file by their standards :(

16:43 seancorfield: just under 4kloc, of which just over 700 is unit tests

16:43 ibdknox: what'd you use for project level lines?

16:50 hiredman: our utils namespace at work is 1,056 lines

16:51 seancorfield: ibdknox: do you mean "how did (i) count lines?" - i just used wc

16:51 ibdknox: I see

16:51 jedahu: Raynes: hey, that's not fair! not all my work is like that, and it was written in one hackety session :-)

16:52 Raynes: jedahu: Hehe. :)

16:52 That's pretty cool for one session.

16:52 Regardless of massive files. :P

16:53 jedahu: well, perhaps one session is a wee exaggeration. the reality is that I needed it quickly and couldn't afford to spend much time on the niceties

16:57 TimMc: whoa

16:57 "niceties" is an anagram of "nice ties"

16:58 (It must be about the end of the work-day...)

16:58 hagna: space isn't a character?

16:58 Raynes: &(seq "1 2 3")

16:58 lazybot: ⇒ (\1 \space \2 \space \3)

16:58 TimMc: Raynes: No, in the "anagram".

16:58 hagna: :)

16:59 Raynes: Oh.

16:59 ibdknox: OMG space exists?

16:59 * Raynes continues sneezing and coughing.

16:59 ibdknox: ,\space

16:59 clojurebot: \space

16:59 TimMc: &\newline

16:59 lazybot: ⇒ \newline

17:00 ibdknox: ,\awesome

17:00 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported character: \awesome>

17:00 ibdknox: :(

17:01 I have end of the work-day syndrome too, obviously. Unfortunately it's the middle of the day

17:03 brehaut: TimMc: the latest firefoxes can display core.clj with only a minimal amount of beachballing

17:05 jondot1: hi guys. any advice on what to use for image processing? i'd like to get image properties such as width,height and exif data. typically i'd use imagemagick (on ruby/node/anything native)

17:06 mebaran151: jondot1: Java actually has pretty good image support baked in

17:06 brehaut: jondot1: java2d is pretty decent. you'll get height and width no problem. cant say about exif though

17:07 mebaran151: jondot1: http://commons.apache.org/sanselan/ actually looks right up your alley

17:08 jondot1: mebaran151, thanks

17:09 ibdknox: lol

17:10 I love this: "This library is pure Java. It's slow, consequently, but perfectly portable."

17:10 Raynes: Hah

17:10 jondot1: hm, i'd rather have something fast but not portable, in this specific usecase i'm looking at.

17:12 mebaran151: jondot1: java2d is probably as close to the metal as you're gonna find, but I can't speak for its EXIF support

17:12 jondot1: good enough.

17:14 mebaran151: btw, does anybody here know of a good tutorial for JGoodies or Mig

17:14 I'm trying to make some Swing dialogs that don't look completely awful

17:17 jondot1: for general knowledge, this might be good http://rsbweb.nih.gov/ij/features.html

17:47 faust45: is it simple way in clojure to implement: one process put data to queue, another watch queue and proceeds items one by one ?

17:48 technomancy: faust45: sure; you mean in-process or over a network?

17:48 both are easy enough

17:49 emezeske: faust45: you might also look at agents, they're not exactly what you describe, but may be applicable: http://clojure.org/agents

17:49 faust45: technomancy: one process listen http feed and parse it and put items to queue, another watch queue and processed them

17:50 technomancy: faust45: sure, the most common way is to use rabbitmq; it's pretty straightforward

17:50 https://github.com/technomancy/die-roboter

17:52 faust45: technomancy: rabbitmq? i want use only native clojure java stuff

17:53 technomancy: rabbit has a native java client

17:53 unless you're talking about in-process queues

18:00 faust45: if i what run some action and not waiting to finished i can use agents ?

18:01 dakrone: faust45: you could also check out channels in lamina https://github.com/ztellman/lamina

18:02 faust45: dakrone: thanks, but i just want wrap my mind around clojure features

18:02 brehaut: or anything implementing http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/BlockingQueue.html

18:03 LinkedBlockingQueue being a favorite

18:03 dakrone: ,(doc seque)

18:03 clojurebot: "([s] [n-or-q s]); Creates a queued seq on another (presumably lazy) seq s. The queued seq will produce a concrete seq in the background, and can get up to n items ahead of the consumer. n-or-q can be an integer n buffer size, or an instance of java.util.concurrent BlockingQueue. Note that reading from a seque can block if the reader gets ahead of the producer."

18:03 faust45: thanks

18:04 but can i use agents for not blocking? or agents not suitable

18:05 brehaut: agents dont block

18:05 if you use something like a BlockingQueue you will need to create the threads that consume or populate them yourself

18:27 hagna: hrm clojure-bitly 0.1.2 has errors about rebinding dynamic variables ...

18:29 Raynes: hagna: http://github.com/Raynes/hobbit

18:29 Relies on a godawful old version of clj-http, so if you want to update that be my wonderful guest.

18:30 hagna: Raynes: ok I guess I could try that

18:31 Raynes: isn't it odd that lein will let me use libraries that won't work?

18:31 Raynes: Not really.

18:31 hagna: yeah guess not

18:56 Raynes: how do I get import it (:require hobbit.bitly :as bitly) ?

19:00 aperiodic: hagna: almost, but the namespace and rename bit should all be in a vector: (:require [hobbit.bitly :as bitly])

19:00 hagna: if you're not renaming it, then you can omit the vector and just supply the namespace

19:01 hagna: and remember that in the repl, you'll need to quote the vector/namespace

19:01 hagna: aperiodic: I suppose after that I do (type bitly/bitly-url)

19:01 to see that it imported correctly?

19:01 aperiodic: yeah, that'll work

19:02 hagna: aperiodic: why do you have to quote the vector/namespace in the repl

19:03 TimMc: hagna: Because require is a function, not a macro.

19:03 aperiodic: hagna: because what require needs are symbols, but since require is a function, the symbols are evaluated before being passed to require.

19:03 kilorn: technomancy: hey, are you the maintainer of slime.el on marmalade?

19:04 amalloy: technomancy: quick, hide!

19:04 hagna: aperiodic: so (dir bitly) yields an error in the repl

19:04 kilorn: haha, no no, nothing like that, just a bigfix i'd like to offer

19:04 alexyk: technomancy: so does leon subsume all of the cake already?

19:04 lein dammit

19:04 hagna: aperiodic: but (type bitly/bitly-url) is String

19:04 kilorn: packaging bug more correctly

19:05 Raynes: alexyk: That isn't a question.

19:05 alexyk: Raynes: prev. line

19:05 Raynes: alexyk: It doesn't have any sort of persistence yet and that's pretty low-priority. As far as functionality goes, lein 2 is pretty close if not on par with cake.

19:05 All the way down to profiles and an awesome repl with completion and stuff.

19:06 Actually, lein's new repl is better than cake's wa.

19:06 was*

19:06 aperiodic: hagna: that's because the namespace-qualified symbol bitly/bitly-url refers to a string, so when it is evaluated, it evaluates to that string

19:07 technomancy: alexyk: the in-process classloader stuff isn't very well tested, and the background JVM process stuff is delegated to jark, but I think that covers most of it

19:08 if you're interested in background JVMs I encourage you to help test out jark

19:08 it's still in progress from what I can tell

19:08 alexyk: Raynes: so for practical purposes, textmate-clojure bundle wants cake. And expects that to start persistent JVMs, for self and project. Would renaming cake to lein there work?

19:08 technomancy: what's jark?

19:08 Raynes: No.

19:08 technomancy: clojurebot: jark?

19:08 clojurebot: jark is a clojure daemon for scripting: http://icylisper.in/jark/

19:09 Raynes: alexyk: My suggestion would be to remove all interactive stuff from the bundle.

19:09 dnolen has long since abandoned it anyways.

19:09 He was trying to make it not suck but eventually gave up.

19:09 technomancy: yeah, I don't think textmate is very suited for interacting with subprocesses

19:09 aperiodic: hagna: but when you call require, there's no var in your namespace that's mapped to by the symbol hobbit.bitly, so (require [hobbit.bitly :as bitly]) will complain that there's no var called "hobbit.bitly"

19:10 Raynes: technomancy: Sublime Text 2 is much better as far as extensions go and I think could handle that sort of thing.

19:10 hagna: aperiodic: ok

19:10 Raynes: technomancy: If only it didn't rely on textmate bundles and have completely worthless autoindentation, etc.

19:10 technomancy: kilorn: sort of. I'm trying to encourage people to move away from it towards M-x clojure-jack-in.

19:10 ibdknox: yeah ST2 is basically useless for Clojure

19:10 aperiodic: hagna: what you want pass to require is the symbol that tells require what namespace to import, so you need to quote the symbol/vector in order to prevent it from being evaluated

19:11 alexyk: Raynes: it's last edited last summer! Is it long abandonment in Internet age?

19:11 Raynes: ibdknox: Using textmate bundles was a huge mistake. If you, in the 21st century, do not have an editor that has syntax definitions that understands the structure of code at least a little, you've got a problem.

19:11 ibdknox: heh

19:11 Raynes: Even Vim does better than this. Emacs is bloody sentient with that stuff.

19:11 technomancy: well

19:12 Raynes: I've heard it whisper indentation rules into my ear.

19:12 technomancy: most emacs modes still rely on regexes, which is dumb

19:12 kilorn: technomancy: the slime.el package on marmalade references two functions from slime-contrib which are not packaged , so slime-eval-defun (*very* useful) doesn't work. may I offer a fix? https://gist.github.com/1775732

19:12 technomancy: but you can still write a real parser if you like

19:12 alexyk: ocaml client for clojure daemon! bestiality is next

19:12 technomancy: dude!

19:12 ocaml is awesome

19:12 alexyk: I love ocaml!

19:12 kilorn: technomancy: just copy pasted from the orig

19:12 ibdknox: Clojure is way more awesome :p

19:12 Raynes: I think I'd go with something else.

19:12 alexyk: it beat clojure for Twitter graph when I handled 5 million users

19:13 technomancy: it's good at all the things clojure sucks at

19:13 Raynes: I'd do a Haskell client for a clojure daemon. Or… a Rust client!!!

19:13 alexyk: in fact Haskell beat ocaml narrowly

19:13 technomancy: alexyk: cool

19:13 Raynes: If Rust had decent networking. It's too young. :(

19:13 alexyk: but I'm just curious why you guys say :"leon merges with cake" if you send me to mark for JVMs!

19:13 because until leon fully subsumes cake it won't do

19:14 ibdknox: lol

19:14 alexyk: merge means you do everything better

19:14 technomancy: kilorn: hmm... is this so you can use C-M-x from inside the slime-repl?

19:14 ibdknox: this mythical leon

19:14 Raynes: It was a team merge, not a code merge. :>

19:14 technomancy: it already works from within clojure-mode

19:14 alexyk: effin' lion corrects lein

19:14 Raynes: And by team, it apparently mostly meant "Hey, Raynes is gonna work on Lein now. k?"

19:14 alexyk: Raynes: it's like, cake folks said, we're tired of it guys!

19:14 technomancy: "Ponce de Lein"

19:14 kilorn: technomancy: the repl and slime-mode, yeah, have I stumbled on something known?

19:15 alexyk: Elton John's hit "Lein"

19:15 technomancy: kilorn: I guess I'm not sure what you're looking for

19:15 why would you use C-M-x in the repl; wouldn't RET be just as good?

19:16 alexyk: so the fact is, I can still get cake and it creates persistent JVMs, so it's what I like best, and until I can call lein2 with two JVMs I'm sticking with cake!

19:16 technomancy: is it for re-evaling something from up in the buffer's history?

19:16 alexyk: have you tried jark?

19:16 Raynes: alexyk: And that will work fine for you until you find yourself needing to use a lein plugin or find a cake bug that we refuse to fix. :p

19:17 kilorn: technomancy: it's not for the repl, it's for evaluating in the edit buffer. what it does is find the surrounding defun no matter where inside it you are, and send it to the swank server, I use it constantly.

19:17 * technomancy is genuinely curious about jark

19:17 alexyk: technomancy: not yet! I see it exists, but from the get-go, I turned back to Clojure in Klout again and I forgot all I knew, so I want things to work out of the box.

19:17 technomancy: yeah, it's definitely immature

19:17 alexyk: So if I need to like write plumbing for leon-cake, it's a no-go

19:17 lein dammit

19:17 I need to teach this Lion

19:17 to behave around spelling

19:18 technomancy: kilorn: so you're saying in clojure-mode C-M-x doesn't currently work at all?

19:18 kilorn: technomancy: it's broken in the version everyone gets by default from marmalade,I'd just like to have it work by default for new users.

19:18 technomancy: this is the first I've heard of this problem

19:18 kilorn: technomancy: it didn't for me, until I added these functions

19:18 technomancy: what's it bound to on your machine?

19:19 technomancy: it's slime-eval-defun

19:19 I mean, once I've connected to a slime server

19:20 emezeske: Anyone mind if I use them as a "Friend of Attendee" for $25 my Clojure West ticket?

19:21 s/\$25 my/$25 off my/

19:28 kilorn: technomancy: you're right, my bad, slime-eval-defun had an advice around it which had broken dependencies.

19:29 technomancy: aha, tricky

19:30 kilorn: technomancy: that's what I get for haphazardly stealing bits of people's .emacs

19:30 technomancy: it happens =)

19:31 hmm; one more =) and we'll have balance among the parens

19:31 (for as long as i've been connected to my bouncer anyway

19:31 )

19:32 kilorn: who on earth would name his project ciste?!

19:33 amalloy: why wouldn't you?

19:33 it's not a word with a meaning in english

19:34 kilorn: because "puss-bladder" has a much nicer ring

19:35 technomancy: maybe you meant to call it "cistern" but got bored 70% of the way through typing it

19:35 amalloy: (a) you're only looking for one S there, and (b) that's cyst. ciste makes me think of cistern, personally

19:35 kilorn: shall we compare edit-distance? =)

19:36 amalloy: ,(= 2 2)

19:36 clojurebot: true

19:36 kilorn: a true case of zero-sum potato-tomato

19:42 jweiss: https://refheap.com/paste/685 <- anyone recognize what's going wrong with the stdout stream here? it's a snippet of basically clojure.contrib.trace output. not sure how the stream is being written out of order when i'm calling println. shouldn't have anything to do with laziness, right?

19:43 hiredman: printing is not synchronized

19:43 jweiss: hiredman: but it's a single thread

19:43 hiredman: what makes you think that?

19:43 kilorn: amalloy: you're right, pus does have one 's'. I take it all back.

19:43 jweiss: hiredman: i don't have any code being executed that starts new threads

19:44 at least, not that i'm aware of

19:45 hiredman: so? I bet selenium creates threads

19:47 jweiss: hiredman: hm, i will dig deeper to see if that's it, but the selenium namespace is my own, not the actual selenium lib - that whole block hasn't even called into the selenium library yet

19:49 and the out-of-orderness is awfully consistent to be thread contention, but i suppose even that could come out the same every time

19:54 it sure looks like println is allowing thread execution to continue before the entire string is done printing but that doesn't seem possible. Maybe it's the emacs repl causing the issue

19:55 amalloy: it sounds more like laziness to me, if you're producing lazy sequences with a side effect of printing while trace is printing stuff.

19:56 &(lazy-seq (print 1) (cons 1 (lazy-seq (print 2) (cons 2 nil))))) ;; probably prints overlapping

19:56 lazybot: ⇒ (121 2)

19:56 jweiss: amalloy: it sure looked like laziness to me at first. just not sure how a println can print the open paren, allow more stuff to run, and then print the data it was given.

19:56 amalloy: if the sequence it's printing is lazy, then it's like "oh, this is a sequence: i'll print a paren. now, let's see what its elements are"

19:57 if the first element causes printing, then...

19:57 jweiss: amalloy: ah, you're right, that is what's happening

19:57 the calculation of the first element calls a traced function.

19:58 so... now to figure out how to force evaluation when i don't even know of the object is a lazy or even a sequence

19:58 *if

19:59 (if (coll? x) (doall x) x)

19:59 something like that i guess

19:59 but that isn't right either, that'll hang on infinite sequences

20:00 * jweiss not sure this is fixable

20:03 jweiss: i think if i call pr-str and pass the string to println that might help...

20:09 damn, well, at least i'm pretty sure the original contrib lib has the same problem.

20:35 lnes: how to solve this one? http://www.4clojure.com/problem/72

20:35 thanks

20:41 brehaut: lnes: if we tell you, you wont learn anything

20:41 and that really defeats the point

21:07 technomancy: anyone in here who's written a lein plugin?

21:10 arohner: technomancy: me

21:11 technomancy: how do you feel about testing it on lein2?

21:11 arohner: sure. I didn't know lein2 was ready for testing

21:12 technomancy: well, I'd like to ensure more plugins work before getting lots of users to try it out

21:13 mind if I pm?

21:13 arohner: please do

21:15 TimMc: technomancy: ~anyone :-P

21:15 technomancy: heh

21:15 TimMc: And I'd be happy to test it out on lein2.

21:16 Does lein2 have a self-installer yet, or do I have to use the shell script?

21:17 technomancy: TimMc: you have to bootstrap it with lein1

21:18 TimMc: k

21:21 technomancy: TimMc: getting my private messages?

21:28 TimMc: oops, yes

21:28 wandered off

21:29 Frozenlock: I'm trying (once again) to get started on clojure. In Emacs, I do the M-x clojure-jack-in while in my project.clj file, but I only get a *swank* buffer, with the whole swank code written in it. Any idea what I might be doing wrong?

21:30 technomancy: Frozenlock: try "lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.4.0" maybe

21:30 TimMc: Frozenlock: You might be better off just using lein run and lein test for now -- don't let tools get in the way of learning the language.

21:31 (Oh, and lein repl, of course.) I haven't bothered to get set up with swank-clojure yet.

21:33 Frozenlock: technomancy: Good catch, but I have already done it ;)

21:33 technomancy: Frozenlock: do you have the latest version I mean?

21:33 the old version spewed out a lot more code

21:34 Frozenlock: Urhm... let me check that

21:34 TimMc: you mean without Emacs????

21:34 TimMc: No, I use Emacs, just not an integrated REPL.

21:36 Frozenlock: Technomancy: I now have 1.3.0, 1.3.1 and 1.4.0 in my lein plugins folder. Still isn't working.

21:36 Those are the last line in my *swank* buffer: (provide 'slime-repl)

21:36 ;;; slime-repl.el ends here


21:36 (run-hooks 'slime-load-hook)

21:36 user=> Connection opened on local port 64903

21:37 #<ServerSocket ServerSocket[addr=localhost/,port=0,localport=64903]>


21:37 technomancy: Frozenlock: is it just a few lines (~20) or pages and pages?

21:37 Frozenlock: About 11k lines

21:38 technomancy: ok, try manually clearing out all but 1.4.0 out of ~/.lein/plugins

21:38 newer versions of lein do this for you, but you must have installed with an older version

21:38 Frozenlock: Oh I can't, because apparently I'm using the file I'm trying to erase. -_-

21:38 * Frozenlock kills all java process

21:39 TimMc: On Windows?

21:39 Frozenlock: Yes

21:39 Don't throw rocks at me

21:39 TimMc: No, I just keep forgetting that Windows doesn't allow you to delete in-use files.

21:40 Frozenlock: It isn't the case on other OS? I was taking this as a universal rule... Don't erase file in use.

21:40 TimMc: Sort of.

21:40 technomancy: IIRC it's like GC; the blocks won't be freed until there's really no one using it

21:40 TimMc: Linux (and Mac?) delete the path, but the process keeps hold of the file handle.

21:41 This can lead to a *different* sort of hilarity.

21:41 Frozenlock: technomancy: should I delete the snapshot.jar file too? (155 ko)

21:41 technomancy: sure

21:42 mebaran151: any guide to do pretty swing with clojure? I'm using seesaw, but I want to make pretty forms for this app. Any guideline would be appreciated

21:42 Frozenlock: Working!

21:42 Thanks guys!

21:42 technomancy: sweet

21:43 * Frozenlock feels like -starting- clojure is an achievement in itself.

21:51 TimMc: OK, would it be *terrible* etiquette to rename and move my lein-jit project to lein-otf?

21:51 Rationale: "JIT compilation" is ambiguous, and "OTF compilation" (on-the-fly) is not.

22:22 Ugh, lein-jit is currently broken, I think.

23:03 tacoman: newbie question: I've read that contrib is going away, yet things like vimclojure depend on contrib. Am I misreading something, or am I going to have to adjust my dependencies somehow to deal with this?

23:05 TimMc: tacoman: Many Clojure 1.2 project depend on monolithic clojure.contrib, and there is no monolithic contrib for 1.3. However, vimclojure is probably running in a different JVM from your code.

23:05 tacoman: so install vimclojure using clojure1.2, and use 1.3 for my own code?

23:06 and I won't run into any issues with multiple Clojures installed, right?

23:06 TimMc: technomancy: Has something changed in leiningen that would break lein-otf? I'm relying on :main pulling a dev-dependency into the uberjar, but I think that is no longer happening.

23:06 tacoman: Right, because you don't actually install Clojure -- it's just a dependency that happens to be a compiler and runtime,. :-)

23:06 tacoman: gotcha. cool stuff

23:07 how frequently do they make changes like this big, out of curiosity? I'd imagine frequently given the age of the language

23:08 arohner: tacoman: this has been the biggest (and most painful) change that's been made in clojure's history

23:08 and I've been here since '08

23:08 TimMc: tacoman: The big change in clojure.core was just numerics. contrib is a separate issue that totally overshadows the core stuff.

23:09 tacoman: good to know. is there a way to get an email subscription to the dev newsgroup just to read, without having to send in the contributor's agreement and add yourself into the group?

23:09 I'm curious, but I don't have enough experience to actually do much useful yet

23:09 TimMc: Monolithic contrib never should have happened -- it was a maintenance nightmare.

23:13 arohner: tacoman: you don't need a CA to read the dev newsgroup

23:13 you need a CA to submit patches

23:13 tacoman: well, I know it's on Groups, but I want it sent to my email. the form to do that asked if I'd signed an agreement

23:14 I mostly wanted to make sure I wasn't wasting someone's time by filling that out without one

23:36 technomancy: TimMc: yeah, sorry I must have missed that in my explanation

23:36 :dev-dependencies is replaced by :profiles

23:36 TimMc: also: thumbs up on a rename

23:44 TimMc: technomancy: No, I mean lein-jit doesn't seem to work in 1.6.2 (and 1.7) anymore!

23:44 Bah, I'll work on this tomorrow.

23:44 technomancy: oy

23:44 hrm

23:44 TimMc: I even tried a checkout-dep.

23:45 technomancy: well 1.6.2 hasn't changed. =)

23:45 wait, you mean using :plugins?

23:45 TimMc: Nope, when using :dev-dependencies

23:45 Should I be using plugins instead?

23:45 * TimMc is hauled off to bed

23:45 technomancy: eventually

23:53 k9quaint: anyone used JDO in clojure?

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