#clojure log - Nov 21 2011

The Joy of Clojure
Main Clojure site
Google Group
List of all logged dates

0:11 alex_baranosky: do you all think colorization of Midje console output should be togglable, or would it be ok to just have colorization be the only option?

0:11 ibdknox_: alex_baranosky: I added that stuff to colorize btw

0:12 alex_baranosky: if you think the former, what do you think is a good way to specify not desiring colorization?

0:12 amalloy: alex_baranosky: it needs to be togglable so that you can (eg) write it to text files or devices that don't support ansi color, right?

0:12 alex_baranosky: ibdknox: thanks!

0:12 ibdknox_: amalloy: those extra bytes won't hurt anyone, right? ;)

0:13 alex_baranosky: amalloy: makes sense, so then the question moves onto the second step of what is the best medium for togglability

0:13 amalloy: ibdknox_: i sure enjoy reading ^[[67A in my logfiles :P

0:14 ibdknox_: is midje used outside of the context of lein?

0:14 alex_baranosky: as far as I know it is only used from cake and lein...

0:14 amalloy: ibdknox_: there's a midje-mode for emacs that at least marick uses; dunno who else does

0:14 ibdknox_: project file

0:14 hm

0:15 Project file still probably makes the most sense as a default place

0:15 devn: seancorfield: the pprint issue was damned simple -- just a rename from earmuffed *code-dispatch* to code-dispatch

0:15 seancorfield: it looked worse on the surface -- now I'm onto a new issue, (recur) within a (try ...)

0:15 some hairy code, taboot :|

0:15 amalloy: devn: whattttt? surely that should be setting *code-dispatch* to be dynamic

0:16 well, i guess i don't actually know that

0:16 but it sounds like the sort of thing that wants to be dynamic

0:16 devn: amalloy: I moved from clojure.contrib.pprint where it was earmuffed

0:16 clojure.pprint => no earmuffs

0:16 yes, it is ^:dynamic

0:16 ibdknox_: if it's dynamic it should have earmuffs :p

0:16 alex_baranosky: ibdknox_: maybe set a midje-colorize property based on what's in the project file?

0:17 ibdknox_: alex_baranosky: yep

0:17 devn: ibdknox_: that's not a thing anymore

0:17 ibdknox_: devn: oh? The convention itself is not endorsed anymore?

0:17 amalloy: alex_baranosky: ideally you would query the output pipe/console and ask if it supports color - that's what grep does. but that's probably a lot of work and might not be possible in java anyway

0:17 devn: ibdknox_: i dont think it was ever endorsed TBH

0:17 ibdknox_: i did it though :)

0:17 amalloy: ibdknox_: fairly sure devn is talking nonsense here

0:17 alex_baranosky: I might have to roll my own colorization code then to bake the property check into the function/macro calls

0:17 devn: amalloy: wha?

0:18 amalloy: dynamic vars and earmuffed vars probably don't correspond 1:1, but they're closely tied

0:18 ibdknox_: devn: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Library+Coding+Standards

0:18 amalloy: and you should usually have one iff you have the other

0:18 ibdknox_: devn: that seems endorsed to me :p

0:18 devn: err, yeah, you can say I'm talking nonsense

0:19 that's what I was saying

0:19 the code I'm fixing is using *earmuffs* for constants

0:19 hiredman: pre-1.3's release there was a trnasition period where earmuffed vars were automatically made dynamic, which is no longer the case

0:19 amalloy: alex_baranosky: project.clj isn't very flexible though, right? maybe i usually want color but this time i'm writing to a log file

0:19 devn: and yes, that.

0:19 amalloy: you might take a hint from lein and use an environment variable

0:19 ibdknox_: actually

0:19 amalloy: MIDJE_COLOR=false lein midje

0:19 ibdknox_: an env var makes sense

0:19 you can then have the lein plugin set it

0:20 based on the project var if it exists

0:20 otherwise, amalloy can write his log files by setting it explicitly at the start of the command :p

0:22 devn: ibdknox_: to your original point, I'm wrong again. code-dispatch used to be earmuffed, it's not anymore, but the whole structure of pprint is quite different, code-dispatch is now a multimethod

0:22 ibdknox_: devn: haha

0:23 no one knows what's going on anymore! :D

0:23 it's a mad house

0:23 devn: I've been a bit out of the loop.

0:25 now...need to figure out how to refactor this code to not use a (recur) inside (try)

0:25 * devn grumbles

0:25 alex_baranosky: ibdknox_: amalloy: thanks for the great ideas, I've jotted down some notes and will think about it tomorrow. It's getting later here.

0:26 amalloy: devn: it's a bit gross that that doesn't work anymore

0:26 ibdknox_: wait

0:26 hiredman: devn: letfn

0:26 ibdknox_: that doesn't work at all?

0:26 amalloy: you can probably fix it by turning (loop [] (recur)) into ((fn [] (recur)))

0:26 hiredman: it doesn't work to recur across a try

0:27 ibdknox_: ah

0:27 amalloy: hiredman: there was a bug about this a while ago where it wasn't possible to recur even entirely-inside of a catch clause. is that still an issue?

0:27 hiredman: amalloy: I believe the issue is still open

0:27 e.g. for (catch E e (loop [] (recur)))

0:28 amalloy: right

0:28 ibdknox_: if it's in a function it's fine though?

0:28 hiredman: I think so, I forget

0:31 devn: https://gist.github.com/1381725

0:32 That's what I'm looking at^

0:36 scottj: is there a pretty dates lib ("2 hours ago", "yesterday")

0:39 hiredman: devn: seems like you can just hoist the try/catch outside of the loop/recur

0:41 devn: hiredman: ill give it a try -- clojure-refactoring is not light reading

0:41 hiredman: loop recur seems kind of disgusting there

0:41 looks like a reduce

0:42 report is some horrible macro that lexically captures report-fn?

0:47 devn: hiredman: i think it was from clojure.test

0:47 amalloy: clojure.test is nothing but horrible macros

0:47 hiredman: inc

0:48 devn: the ns was (when (= (class clojure.test/report) clojure.lang.MultiFn) (eval '(do (require 'clojure.test) (ns clojure.test) (def old-report clojure.test/report))))

0:48 wtf?

0:48 hiredman: :(

0:49 monkey patching the reporting for clojure.test

0:49 amalloy: that's a really bad way to monkey-patch, even

0:49 devn: I'll give Tom the benefit of the doubt -- I think he wrote this back in 1.0

0:49 but yeah, agree

0:49 amalloy: i helped marick replace some code in midje that looked exactly like this. the result is still bad but at least doesn't use eval

0:50 hiredman: the reporting stuff for clojure.test get's monkey patched a lot

0:50 devn: I really like midje

0:50 hiredman: makes you wonder if someone should just provide a nice extension mechanism for it

0:52 it's kind of a shame clojure.test went it to clojure proper, then no further developement

0:54 I guess there have been some commits in 2010

0:56 devn: I haven't used clojure.test a whole lot

0:57 I'm going to go ahead and take your word for it

0:58 hiredman: clojure.test is what we use at work actually

0:58 devn: oh right, you're one of those lucky assholes who gets to write clojure all the time at work

0:58 ;)

0:58 hiredman: and it is mostly fine, we had some trouble here and there with conflicting monkey patching of the reporting function

0:59 different lein plugins that format test output in different ways

0:59 the few, the proud, etc

1:00 devn: hiredman: yeah, that sounds nasty

1:01 hiredman: I've gone all avant garde recently, and used 'are' in a test or two instead of 'is'

1:01 devn: hhahahaha, that's so postmodern

1:02 we need to fuse the two worlds: iares

1:02 hiredman: be

1:02 devn: not-to-be

1:02 technomancy: clojure-test-mode had a truly awful monkey patch

1:02 for clojure.test/report

1:02 but I wrote that like three months after I started with clojure

1:02 hiredman: maybe that is what I was thinking of

1:03 technomancy: anyway, it's much better now

1:04 devn: I wish I could claim all of the clojure I write was created three months after I started

1:04 * devn should probably find a clojure job at some point

1:05 devn: we've been talking about starting a clojure practice-- i'm in the process right now of rewriting an app we did that should have been done in clojure to show off what clojure is good at

1:06 it's hard for me to explain clojure, i think. "it's different than what you're used to" doesn't seem to be getting the message across. ;)

1:06 ibdknox_: devn: we're hiring ;)

1:07 devn: ibdknox_: meetup?

1:07 * devn realizes he probably has the wrong guy

1:07 ibdknox_: you do :p

1:07 https://www.readyforzero.com

1:08 devn: where are you guys located?

1:08 ibdknox_: San Francisco

1:08 downtown

1:08 devn: if it's san francisco the whole debt thing should work out well for me as a service

1:08 amalloy: hahaha

1:08 ibdknox_: haha

1:08 it's true

1:08 :)

1:09 devn: they always say to eat your own dog food

1:09 but this is ridiculous

1:09 ibdknox_: all kidding aside, looks cool

1:15 slyphon: there's gotta be a better way to do this:

1:15 (let [s {:a 1 :b 2}] (and (contains? s :a) (contains? s :b)))

1:16 amalloy: &(every? {:a 1 :b 2} [:a :b])

1:16 lazybot: ⇒ true

1:16 amalloy: fails iff you have nil/false values in the map

1:17 slyphon: hrm

1:17 ok, bad example then

1:17 i have a list that can contain :a or :b and optionally :c

1:17 :a and :b is an error

1:18 hiredman: ,(every? true? (map (partial contains? {:a 1 :b 2}) [:a :b]))

1:18 slyphon: (which is what i'm trying to detect)

1:18 clojurebot: true

1:18 amalloy: slyphon: a list?

1:18 slyphon: let's say, yes

1:18 a seq

1:18 i'm not sure what the caller is going to provide, so i'd coerce into what i need

1:20 * slyphon still loves the name 'future-cancelled?'

1:21 hiredman: (constantly promise)

1:22 slyphon: :D

1:22 technomancy: (do (not deliver))

1:23 slyphon: hah

1:24 (require shorts)

1:24 too bad no "shoes"

1:24 devn: (deliver us "from evil")

1:24 technomancy: "There is no try" actually works semantically since try is a special form that doesn't exist as a var.

1:24 slyphon: hah

1:27 amalloy: i have to confess, after that bizarre ML post asking people to stop saying "idiomatic", i'm noticing that word used in some pretty absurd places

1:28 slyphon: (complement shorts)

1:28 hiredman: amalloy: the solution to that is to stop reading the normal ml, and just read -dev

1:28 amalloy: a comment on an old SO answerR: "I don't like reimplementing core functions, it's not idiomatic."

1:30 hiredman: so :(

1:30 amalloy: hiredman: -dev is not terribly fun reading most of the time

1:30 hiredman: the regular list is mostly junk

1:31 at least there haven't been any blog posts to the list recently

1:34 R4p70r: I was reading this http://stackoverflow.com/q/8199046 and was wondering.. Why does Clojure have an "update-in" for nested associative structures but no plain "update" for updating "flat" associative structures?

1:35 hiredman: what would update do?

1:35 (and how would it differ from update-in?)

1:39 Raynes: &(update-in {:foo 0} [:foo] inc)

1:39 lazybot: ⇒ {:foo 1}

1:39 Raynes: R4p70r: The only thing you'd gain from 'update' is two less square brackets.

1:42 devn: I have a buy order out for square brackets.

1:43 It's like Cash4Gold, but for syntax

1:43 slyphon: hah

1:44 devn: ming slyphon?

1:44 slyphon: at one point

1:44 devn: slyphon: cool to see you in here -- I think you were the first nice guy I met on IRC

1:44 slyphon: hah

1:44 devn: seriously. :)

1:44 slyphon: well, i try :)

1:45 devn: slyphon: still hacking the rubies?

1:45 slyphon: yeah, mostly

1:45 R4p70r: Raynes I can see that... But why is it like that in the first place? Is it more common to use this on nested structures somehow? I guess it's just more inconvenient than (assoc (get (get coll 3) 4) (f (get (get coll 3) 4)))

1:45 slyphon: i try other things, but i keep coming back

1:46 devn: slyphon: clojure might turn you! :D

1:46 Raynes: What do you mean 'why is it like that'? What other way could it be?

1:46 amalloy: there are support groups for that

1:46 slyphon: hah!

1:46 devn: I don't need a support group. I came out to my coworkers a year or two ago.

1:46 amalloy: R4p70r: that is not equivalent

1:46 slyphon: my friend just said about ClojureScript "that's so fucking nerd-trendy that somewhere a cobol programmer just died"

1:47 devn: I never want to go back. This is who I am now, and everyone will need to learn to accept it. :)

1:47 amalloy: because of immutability; it looks equivalent if you imagine this is python, but it aint

1:47 slyphon: devn: hahahah

1:47 devn: slyphon: only a hipster would say something like that

1:48 or a nerd with an axe to grind

1:48 slyphon: devn: he's actually a crusty sysadmin type

1:48 "haggard"

1:48 devn: a filthy neckbeard is he?

1:48 amalloy: (update-in m [3 4] f) is roughly (assoc m 3 (let [m2 (get m 3)] (assoc m2 4 (f (get m2 4)))))

1:48 slyphon: hahaha

1:48 indeed

1:48 devn: well then, lisp should be right up his alley

1:48 :)

1:48 slyphon: kind of guy you want there when shit goes down

1:48 in production, on a friday

1:48 devn: so he carries a gun?

1:49 "have gun, will admin"

1:49 slyphon: indeed

1:49 zakwilson: Never know when you might need to headshot a zombie process.

1:49 devn: "kill all the children

1:49 slyphon: sometimes you need to be a little more persuasive than normal

1:50 devn: haha. i think for a lot of the heavy-duty neckbeards the beard does most of the talking

1:50 like: "Hello I resemble PLATO. Ever heard of him?"

1:50 R4p70r: amalloy, Well ok. My point was it's more way concise. And that's probably why clojure has update-in in core.

1:51 devn: slyphon: there's a large overlap. "philosopher beard" and "unix beard"

1:52 R4p70r: amalloy, But you're right my version was bogus.

1:52 amalloy: yes. it's more concise, but also much easier to manage/understand. basically the same reason any function gets written

1:52 daaku: anyone familiar with clj-time/joda time? i can't seem to figure out why the 'T in this doesn't work: (parse (formatter "yyyy-mm-dd'Thh:mm'Z") "2011-11-21T05:51Z")

1:52 amalloy: i imagine it got into core because it's an operation that frequently needs to be done, given clojure's emphasis on immutable hashmaps

1:56 devn: daaku: what are you trying to get with T

1:57 daaku: devn: i want to define a formatter that has a literal T in it

1:57 R4p70r: And since updating a non-nested structure take less code we don't really need an "update" I guess. But I see how update-in can be used with only one key... Anyways I was just a bit curious about the choice of built-in.

1:57 amalloy: daaku: you're using mm in two places. that sounds wrong

1:58 devn: daaku: what is the output?

1:59 daaku: amalloy: ah, that was definitely wrong

1:59 but fixing that didn't help: (parse (formatter "yyyy-MM-dd'Thh:mm'Z") "2011-11-21T05:51Z")

1:59 gives: IllegalArgumentException Invalid format: "2011-11-21T05:51Z" is malformed at "T05:51Z" org.joda.time.format.DateTimeFormatter.parseDateTime

2:00 hiredman: 'T' is most likely what you need

2:02 daaku: hiredman: ah, i didn't realize it was not just a escape prefix

2:02 thanks

2:05 slyphon: why is it that (vector :a) returns [:a] but (seq :a) and (set :a) throw exceptions?

2:05 hiredman: because that is what they do

2:06 amalloy: vector creates vectors from items; seq and set create seqs and sets out of seqs

2:06 slyphon: hrm

2:07 i kind of want (flatten (vector arg))

2:07 amalloy: nooooo, you don't

2:07 hiredman: uh

2:07 slyphon: right, i know that

2:07 hiredman: why would you possibly want that?

2:07 what do you think that does?

2:08 brehaut: ~flatten

2:08 clojurebot: flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.

2:08 brehaut: wow. thats larger than i remember

2:08 amalloy: brehaut: dangit, i always forget i taught him that

2:08 hiredman: clojurebot: mapcat is useful

2:08 clojurebot: Roger.

2:09 slyphon: so, i have a function that will take a map, one key is :flags, which I want to treat as a set, but someone may hand me a single value

2:09 :flags [:a :b] or :flags :a

2:09 hiredman: (if (coll? ...) (set ...) #{...})

2:10 slyphon: ah

2:10 yeah, or, that

2:10 :)

2:10 thanks

2:12 R4p70r: slyphon, the closest equivalent to set and seq in your example would be "vec" not vector

2:12 slyphon: ah

2:13 scottj: slyphon: hash-set is the equiv of vector

2:13 slyphon: ah

2:13 ok

2:14 * slyphon is learning vocabulary

2:14 slyphon: (again)

2:27 georgek: hi, I'm using emacs, lein, and swank-clojure, and up to now when I add something to the project.clj I have to M-x clojure-jack-in again to get the changes to take effect. Is there an easier way? Trying C-c C-k in project.clj just says that it can't resolve the symbol defproject

2:28 seancorfield: according to technomancy no, there's no easier way at present

2:28 hiredman: that is how you do it

2:28 georgek: OK thanks, good to know

2:28 amalloy: clojurebot: classpath is <reply> You can't add things (libraries, dependencies) to a running JVM process. Java doesn't like it, and we just have to live with that.

2:28 clojurebot: In Ordnung

2:29 seancorfield: if you have :checksum-deps true in project.clj you don't have to run lein deps which is one less step

2:29 make sure you have clojure-mode 1.11.4 tho' - earlier versions barf on lein output when it fetches deps

2:30 hiredman: cemmerick has a project that is supposed to save us all from it

2:30 seancorfield: i look forward to that :)

2:31 georgek: cool, that'll be nice, thanks for the tips in the meanwhile

2:31 hiredman: well, we'll see if it does

2:31 seancorfield: now if i can just persuade my team mates to switch to emacs...

2:31 georgek: I'm just happy I have a remote emacs, Ring and nginx finally working :)

2:32 hiredman: https://gist.github.com/a1f737bfe0d70a385d4c

2:32 seancorfield: yeah, i need to try this whole remote emacs thing... i only found out about the client / server aspect recently...

2:33 * seancorfield thinks this build might actually pass... after a mere FOUR HOURS wrestling with Java / Tomcat classpath issues :)

2:34 seancorfield: gah, are there any good examples out there of how to use clojure.test.junit?

2:36 "locate-dominating-file" - really? *boggle*

2:36 hiredman: elisp, it's fun

2:37 amalloy: hiredman: i didn't know about locate-dominating-file. very handy

2:38 hiredman: me neither, cribbed from clojure-mode

2:38 devn: I wonder: Does github have a limit on the number of times you can clone/pull repos?

2:39 amalloy: devn: planning to strike it rich by running git-backed rapidshare site?

2:39 devn: hahahha

2:39 No just trying to pull down every single recognized clojure repo

2:40 so I can start parsing ns macros 3:)

2:52 slyphon: <cartman> I hate you java </cartman>

3:00 scottj: devn: do you have a list of all clojure repos?

3:05 amalloy: scottj: i'm pretty sure github's api will give you that

3:20 scottj: amalloy: was only able to find repositories matching a search term in the api, no equivalent of https://github.com/languages/Clojure/created that would filter out forks

3:22 amalloy: sorry, i guess by "pretty sure" i mostly meant "random guessing"

3:23 scottj: devn: did you run slamhound on clojure-refactoring?

5:38 * daaku is annoyed by the extremely verbose default logging in clj-http / org.apache.http

6:57 babilen: Hi all. I am looking for a project that exemplifies good midje practices and welcome any pointers. (Or is adopting midje a bad idea?)

7:00 The most obvious answer seems to be: "Take a look at midje itself!" :) *sigh*

8:29 What is a good way to write tests that read/write external files? How do I read them in a portable way?

8:34 michael_campbell: what kind of portable; across different OS's, or different environments (production, dev, beta, ...), or something else?

8:35 babilen: michael_campbell: I was merely thinking about different OS's and absolute paths

8:36 michael_campbell: ugh, yeah. always a pita. I don't know enough clojure to give you solid advice here, but there are generally os-level "create a temp name for me" calls somewhere that you can use to make a temp directory and put stuff in there.

8:36 babilen: michael_campbell: The first is not hard at all, but I am unsure how to actually find the files. I've seen plenty of examples of .clj files being read which relies on setting the CLASSPATH correctly.

8:37 michael_campbell: or the cheesy way out, which is what I'm all about, is to "mkdir c:\tmp" on any windows box I have, then use /tmp for most everything, since it'll damn sure be on any *nix boxen. (Well, rather, I've never seen one that doesn't have /tmp)

8:37 babilen: michael_campbell: I have a bunch of files that contain data that I need for testing. As I would also like to test the actual reading of the files I don't want to define their content in a variable.

8:38 michael_campbell: <nod> Were it me, I'd just put them in /tmp. But I may be misunderstanding your needs here, and as I said I'm way, way too new at clojure to be depended on for anything =)

8:41 babilen: michael_campbell: Sure. I could put them in /tmp, but that would require that I still keep their content in a variable. I would much rather use a PROJECT/resources/test directory that contains all the files. Just not sure how to actually figure out the PROJECT path.

8:43 mdeboard: Is Josh out sick today

8:43 wrong window

8:47 jkkramer: babilen: (clojure.java.io/resource "test/data.txt"), which returns a file URL, which can be passed to io/reader, etc

8:49 babilen: jkkramer: Wonderful, that sounds as if it is exactly what I was looking for. Lets test it

8:57 raek: babilen: also, 'resource' always uses forward slash as the path separator

8:58 to join non-classpath paths in an OS-independent way, use c.j.io/file

8:59 you can also use the java.io.File class directly to create temp files, among other things

9:00 babilen: raek: I'll do that, thanks.

9:01 raek: babilen: 'resource' will look for files on the classpath (a good fit for resource files bundled with the application), so (io/resource "foo/bar.txt") can resolve to src/foo/bar.txt or resources/foo/bar.txt etc

9:01 resources/ is generally preferred for non-code files

9:09 samaaron: things are a little quiet in here :-)

9:12 TimMc: samaaron: East coast of US is just getting to work.

9:12 or just finished settling in

9:13 * ejackson scratches around for ascii art of a dirty sawtooth wave

9:13 ejackson: bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

9:13 samaaron: hahaha

9:13 ejackson: when are we grabbing that lunch?

9:14 ejackson: how's your tomorrow looking ?

9:14 TimMc: ejackson: "Are We There Yet?" was great.

9:14 ejackson: TimMc: Yeah, it blew me away,

9:14 Glad you liked it

9:14 TimMc: I sent a few notes to my work mail address. :-)

9:14 samaaron: ejackson: tomorrow is grand

9:15 ejackson: samaaron: sorted, we're on :)

9:19 TimMc: the other videos that I really enjoyed were these http://vimeo.com/seandevlin

9:22 TimMc: ah, those

9:23 Thanks for reminding me -- I'll download some to watch at the airport. :-)

9:54 zerokarmaleft: yeesh, someone implemented a jvm in js

9:55 chouser: ooh, so now we can compile ClojureScript in the browser?

9:56 zerokarmaleft: theoretically? heh

9:58 joegallo: can you run rhino in it?

9:58 apgwoz: zerokarmaleft: was it just compiling the openjdk via emscripten?

9:58 or actually wrote a jvm in javascript?

9:59 zerokarmaleft: https://github.com/notmasteryet/jvm-js <= actually wrote a jvm

10:02 joegallo: ouroboros!

10:03 apgwoz: woah. this is awesome

10:04 zerokarmaleft: https://github.com/nurv/BicaVM <= also this

10:05 apgwoz: pretty crazy

10:06 someone should implement a JVM in clojure...

10:12 michael_campbell: and run clojure in it?

10:15 fbru02_: hi all

10:17 Saturnation: pretty disappointed in the "Clojure in Action" index thus far... :(

10:21 correction, I'm pretty disappointed in MY ability to remember what I'm looking for... :)

10:34 fliebel: How does meta data work with macros? (a-macro ^:foo argument)

10:37 TimMc: zerokarmaleft: Pretty cool! The JVM isn't perfect yet, but it basically works.

10:38 fliebel: I half expected to get an expanded with-meta form, but not so.

10:55 AWizzArd|work: fliebel: because you used a reader macro. As soon Clojure read it, it's gone.

10:56 reads

10:57 fliebel: AWizzArd|work: oh, okay, so I just get a symbol with meta on it, nice. :)

11:03 raek: hrm. a bit off topic: I think I saw a presentation (probably FP-related) where it was mentioned that a certain language had "reactors"... anyone heard about such a language?

11:03 is it a widely known concept?

11:09 fliebel: Is a workoing version of this in core? ie like partition-by, but taking parts up to a predicate returns false: (defn partition-with [f s] (lazy-seq (cons (take-while f s) (partition-with f (drop-while f s)))))

11:18 R4p70r: raek, Isn't a reactor pattern something the direct I/O events to various callbacks?

11:20 s/a reactor pattern/the reactor pattern/

11:22 duck1123: doesn't scala web dev make use of reactors? I seem to remember the words 'scala' and 'reactor' used in the same sentence multiple times

11:25 klauern: I think you guys are talking about this paper: http://lamp.epfl.ch/~imaier/pub/DeprecatingObserversTR2010.pdf

11:42 fliebel: This is impossible. 2 projects, both have the same core.match in lib, entering the same command on the repl, I get a different result.

11:44 tcj: I'm using clojure 1.3.0 and want to use some contrib.string (http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/string-api.html) stuff. How do I add this to a leiningen project?

11:44 lazybot: Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/string-api.html) and try to stop linking to rich's repo.

11:45 apgwoz: ... why doesn't rich just remove his repos if they're so out of date?

11:45 duck1123: also. all the string stuff is in clojure.string now

11:45 cemerick: amalloy_: well done :-)

11:45 tcj: Will have a look, lazybot :)

11:45 cemerick: apgwoz: Unknown.

11:45 apgwoz: cemerick: ok. :)

11:46 cemerick: a message to clojure-dev would probably be worthwhile

11:46 duck1123: tcj: So here are the new clojure.string stuff http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.string you don't need to add anything for them, just require (not use) clojure.string

11:46 apgwoz: i'm sure if someone asked him nicely to remove the repos, or put a big warning in the readme with instructions on where to go, he'd comply

11:47 tcj: duck1123: Thanks

11:47 dnolen: fliebel: sounds strange, what command?

11:48 fliebel: if it seems like a bug, it would nice to have a very small set of instruction to reproduce.

11:48 fliebel: dnolen: something without a vector, so one throws an exception, while the other does not.

11:48 dnolen: No, certainly a environment issue :(

11:48 hugod: dnolen: I am trying to match a map with a constrained set of keys, some of which are optional. I can't see a way of doing this with the current :only. Also :guards can not be or'd (I wanted a guard that matches if a key was not found or a predicate matches).

11:50 fliebel: dnolen: When was the vector-less binding introduced?

11:51 dnolen: hugod: ok, enhancement tickets please to at least get the discussions started.

11:51 hugod: dnolen: will do

11:51 fliebel: Both have 0.2.0-alpha6 in lib.

11:52 dnolen: fliebel: hmm, I think that landed in alpha5.

12:01 R4p70r: I've just seen this headline on Hacker News "GCC 4.7 adds transactional memory extensions for C/C++" http://goo.gl/kvUee Haven't read the article yet but I'm kind of curious about it.

12:05 That page doesn't say much.

12:11 fliebel: dnolen: http://pastebin.com/CKdhBgud http://pastebin.com/WGg1QGyb

12:11 tcj: I'm using compojure. Is there a way to assign a default value to a parameter using the compojure destructuring syntax. I read this page https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/wiki/Destructuring-Syntax and didn't see anything. I like to do something like

12:11 (defrouts name (GET [p1 (or p2 "none")] "My response here"))

12:12 dnolen: fliebel: is that the same jar, did you try replacing w/ the jar that works?

12:13 TimMc: R4p70r: Looks less powerful than Clojure's STM,

12:14 since it probably locks pessimistically.

12:16 fliebel: dnolen: hm, will try...

12:16 dnolen: match does not include a version number in the source, does it?

12:17 dnolen: Are you sure it landed in alpha5? because I figured out I still had a copy hanging around in checkouts.

12:18 *doh*

12:20 ah, now it is at least consistently broken :)

12:23 dnolen: Is there any way to get something more recent than 0.2.0-alpha6 via maven?

12:25 dnolen: fliebel: ah sorry, the fix is in HEAD, but release for that yet

12:25 fliebel: I was hoping to get some bigger tickets in before cutting another alpha, but who am I kidding? :) I'll cut alpha7 tonight.

12:46 hugod: dnolen: is this expected? (let [x [:a 1 :b 1]] (clojure.core.match/match [x] [{:a _ :b _}] true)) => true

12:54 dnolen: ,(bases (type []))

12:54 clojurebot: (clojure.lang.APersistentVector clojure.lang.IObj clojure.lang.IEditableCollection)

12:54 dnolen: ,(supers (type []))

12:54 clojurebot: #{clojure.lang.Seqable clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection clojure.lang.ILookup java.lang.Comparable clojure.lang.Sequential ...}

12:55 dnolen: hugod: the interface I test for is clojure.lang.ILookup, not sure if there's a better one.

12:56 gfredericks: the weirdest thing about that is that [:a 1 :b 1] is not a list of pairs

12:56 dnolen: gfredericks: that has nothing to do with it, Vectors support ILookup

12:56 gfredericks: dnolen: I know, I mean from a user-expectations perspective

12:57 dnolen: those map pattern keys are wildcards, so they aren't even tested

12:57 gfredericks: oh hm

12:57 so (match [x] [{:a 1 :b 1}] true) would not match?

12:57 dnolen: gfredericks: it would not

12:58 gfredericks: kay that's good

12:58 dnolen: I used match seriously for the first time yesterday, it went quite well.

13:01 dnolen: hugod: I suppose I could add an additional type constraint - java.util.Map. But seems odd since hardly anyone would go through the hassle to implement that.

13:02 hugod: dnolen: java.util.Map?

13:02 dnolen: hugod: but I don't like that idea. You might for example want to match a vector with map pattern syntax!

13:03 (match v [{0 3 13 :Foo}] ...)

13:03 is kinda nice

13:03 instead of [3 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ :Foo]

13:04 hugod: I just mean check for some other thing to ensure map-like-ness, but I'm not convinced it's much of an issue.

13:05 ,(let [{a 0 b 5} [:a :b :c :d :e :f :g :h]] [a b])

13:05 clojurebot: [:a :f]

13:05 fliebel: dnolen: yay for release :)

13:05 dnolen: I rest my case

13:06 hugod: I can always use a guard, but just wanted to check that it was expected behaviour - I found it surprising.

13:07 dnolen: hugod: was kidding about "I rest my case". If you got better ideas - I'm listening.

13:11 TimMc: dnolen: So {:a _} means "lookup on key :a and confirm that any value is returned"?

13:11 as opposed to (contains? :a)

13:13 fliebel: Is nil a value?

13:13 hiredman: what else would it be?

13:14 dnolen: TimMc: no, wildcards might not be tested.

13:15 {:a _} is next to useless

13:15 {:a a} at least will force extraction of the value.

13:17 tcj: I'm trying to create a jar from clojure code to use in a Java application. I've done ~10min of googling and see a few different solutions (Clojure.RT, and :gen-class). Is there a "preferred" way to go? I tried the gen-class method, but couldn't get it going (only spent ~5min... for some reason lein jar does not seem to create .class files in my output jar).

13:20 raek: tcj: you need to either add a ahead of time compilation entry for the namespace to the project.clj like ":aot [the.ns]" or declare the namespace as main like ":main the.ns". in both cases you need to add :gen-class to the ns form like (ns the.ns (:gen-class))

13:20 tcj: the clojure.lang.RT way is a bit simpler

13:21 tcj: raek: Thanks!

13:22 dnolen: hugod: as far required keys, got something shorter than :required ?

13:26 hugod: dnolen: :mandatory, :at-least or :enforce are the only things that spring to mind

13:27 gfredericks: :has

13:27 dnolen: gfredericks: nice

13:28 hugod: dnolen: so in the meantime, to enforce the presence of a key requires a guard expression on it's value, checking for c.c.match/not-found?

13:28 dnolen: hugod: hmm, have you tried that?

13:29 gfredericks: dnolen: also :contains would be consistent with the core function name

13:29 hugod: dnolen: nope

13:30 dnolen: gfredericks: good suggestions ticket updated.

13:30 hugod: I don't think that will work.

13:30 hugod: I think I feed c.c.match/not-found only for :only

13:31 gfredericks: dnolen: has it been suggested to have a similar modifier without an argument that requires all the keys listed in the pattern? e.g., :has-all

13:32 ({:a 1 :b 2} :has [:a :b]) <==> ({:a 1 :b 2} :has-all)

13:33 dnolen: gfredericks: not a bad idea though sugary stuff I hope other people will send patches for, I really need to tackle the remaining big things :)

13:34 gfredericks: dnolen: I just took a glance at the jira issue, did you mean to include the :has/:contains inside the map?

13:36 dnolen: gfredericks: oops thx fixed

13:36 gfredericks: sadly we can't put things in the map since we can't reverse keys like destructuring does.

13:36 tcj: I'm trying to use Clojure from Scala (just using the Scala repl to test using Clojure from Java). One problem I've run into is that clojure.lang.RT.var conflicts with Scala's var keyword. Am I just out of luck here?

13:36 hugod: dnolen: :has/:contains still doesn't allow the restriction of which keys are present without enforcing their presence, iiuc.

13:37 dnolen: hugod: you want not-contains?

13:37 gfredericks: I suppose that's because destructuring has the luxury of requiring that keys be symbols for normal usage, whereas match allows arbitrary keys?

13:38 robbrit: is there a good clojure "package manager" like cpan or rubygems?

13:38 dnolen: gfredericks: arbitrary anything, which might mean duplicate keys

13:38 tcj: Here's what I'm seeing:

13:38 scala> RT.var("clojure.core", "require").invoke(Symbol.intern("cfr.web.core"))

13:38 <console>:1: error: identifier expected but 'var' found.

13:38 RT.var("clojure.core", "require").invoke(Symbol.intern("cfr.web.core"))

13:38 gfredericks: dnolen: the reader will allow duplicate keys?

13:38 raek: robbrit: Leiningen (which uses Maven for dependency resolution and fetching)

13:39 dnolen: gfredericks: it won't that's why we can't reverse keys like destructuring does

13:39 hugod: dnolen: more like :may-contain-only

13:39 tcj: Sorry, should have googled first. I found the solution: http://www.scala-lang.org/node/8471

13:40 gfredericks: :may-not-contain-any-keys-other-than-these

13:40 robbrit: raek: great, thanks!

13:40 hugod: gfredericks: :)

13:40 dnolen: hugod: oh, that whatever keys are there, below to a specific set

13:40 belong

13:40 hugod: dnolen: yes

13:40 raek: robbrit: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/doc/TUTORIAL.md

13:42 dnolen: hugod: ok, noted on the ticket

13:43 ajsharp: i don't understand why i'm getting a tail recursion error here -- I think I'm misunderstanding something about recur

13:43 https://gist.github.com/1383464

13:44 hugod: dnolen: thanks - though :has/:contains certainly looks useful too :)

13:46 gfredericks: ajsharp: your recur isn't in tail position

13:46 you can't use recur that way

13:46 raek: ajsharp: tail position is basically the "top level" of a function or a branch of an 'if'

13:47 ajsharp: raek: gfredericks so i can't use recur inside an if?

13:47 gfredericks: ajsharp: it has to be such that the recursive call is the last thing the function does

13:47 ajsharp: ah

13:47 right

13:47 raek: ajsharp: in your example 'recur' is not in tail position since the call to (:created_at ...) remains to be evaluated after the "recur" would have returned

13:47 gfredericks: you can inside an if, the issue is you have it inside a vector

13:47 and the :created_at that raek just mentioned

13:48 raek: ajsharp: so the important thing is that whatever (recur ...) returns should be the result of the function

13:48 then it's a tail call

13:48 ajsharp: raek: gfredericks: got it, thanks much

13:49 TimMc: dnolen: Interesting. So matching against x with {:a _} where (:a x) would produce an error... might not throw an exception?

13:49 because match might not even bother asking?

13:50 gfredericks: TimMc: why would (:a x) produce an error when x passes the type requirements?

13:50 a funky implementation that throws exceptions?

13:50 TimMc: Because x might be a bastard lying piece of reified fraud.

13:50 right

13:50 dnolen: TimMc: what I mean is {:a _} without some qualifier is non-information. this could be changed, but I haven't heard anything convincing.

13:50 gfredericks: TimMc: oh those darn BLPORFs

13:50 TimMc: dnolen: Oh, I think it makes sense. I'm just curious. :-)

13:51 GIGO

13:51 or "Ask a stupid question..."

13:54 gfredericks: Yesterday I had a collection of objects that were either {:foo x} or {:bar y :baz z} and wanted to differentiate them with pattern matching, but ended up changing them to [:foo x] and [:bar y z]

13:54 since it seemed to fit core.match better

13:55 may have been a better representation of the data anyhow

13:56 dnolen: gfredericks: hugod: all this is good feedback, stuff to ponder ...

14:06 TimMc: gfredericks: So you needed to find out if they had a certain key?

14:06 Or you could have an additional field :type -> :foo

14:11 gfredericks: TimMc: yeah, a :type field would have worked. Certainly I could have done it with guards, but that was more verbose than I wanted.

14:12 doing the vector thing ended up being a lot more syntactically distinct, and it wasn't important enough code to care how readable it is next week

14:12 s/distinct/succinct

14:12 * gfredericks misses lazybot

14:13 duck1123: I find that lazybot actually doing that replacement is usually a bit much

14:14 I'm perfectly capable of doing a simple word replacement in my head

14:16 amalloy: duck1123: yeah, that's why we turned it off

14:17 * technomancy still wants to implement it inside his IRC client

14:18 hiredman: technomancy: google wave, it's the future

14:19 srid: no more clojure; need to rewrite my project in python (thinking of using gevent - to replace lamina-based code)

14:20 technomancy: hiredman: I'm all for retro-futurism

14:20 hiredman: technomancy: you've seen http://www.paleofuture.com/ ?

14:20 well, I guess they moved

14:20 http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/paleofuture/

14:21 technomancy: yeah, a while ago, but I had forgotten it; thanks

14:21 TimMc: amalloy: I just got in the habit of putting a space in front of my s/.../.../

14:23 Raynes: amalloy: No, we turned it off because people whined like baby pigs. I'm not going to sugarcoat it.

14:23 licenser: cemerick: I finished the translation :)

14:24 cemerick: licenser: nice, send a pull req :-)

14:24 Raynes: cemerick: I demand that my conversation be posted immediately.

14:24 licenser: aye aye :)

14:24 Raynes: Or I withdraw your rights to my beautiful voice.

14:24 Your rights? Some legal thing.

14:25 cemerick: Raynes: are you having a conversation with yourself now? ;-)

14:25 Raynes: I hope not.

14:25 cemerick: I was going to combine yours and Chris' into one, since they were on the shorter side.

14:25 Raynes: That sounds good.

14:25 cemerick: Wasn't planning on it until next week.

14:26 Raynes: I was kidding about immediately.

14:26 You can have a week. ;)

14:26 cemerick: That's good, 'cause it wasn't gonna happen this week. ;-)

14:26 Raynes: You would have given in.

14:27 licenser: also Raynes clj-highlight is updated to clojure 1.3.0

14:28 Raynes: Neat

14:28 devn: How would one implement "method_missing" using multimethods?

14:28 Raynes: devn: :default

14:28 hugod: dnolen: c.c.match/not-found seems to be getting passed to the guard quite happily. I'm finding (defn key-found? [x] (not= x :clojure.core.match/not-found)) to be useful.


14:28 devn: Raynes: ah yes, thanks

14:28 cemerick: Raynes: most other times, probably. :-)

14:28 devn: also, fastest way to take {:a 1 :b [2 3 4]} and get (:a 1 :b [2 3 4])

14:29 I'm doing something silly

14:29 TimMc: &(apply concat {:a 1 :b [2 3 4]})

14:29 lazybot: ⇒ (:a 1 :b [2 3 4])

14:29 devn: duh. I was even using concat

14:31 dnolen: hugod: ok, good to know :)

14:31 TimMc: devn: I'm probably complecting some things there. :-P

14:32 gfredericks: TimMc: the simple way to do it is (constantly '(:a 1 :b [2 3 4]))

14:32 TimMc: haha

14:32 You've been doing too much 4clojure.

14:32 gfredericks: no reason to complect output with input

14:33 TimMc: nice

14:47 gfredericks: I'm thinking about writing tests for an existing java web app. Is the simplest method to deploy it to a server (tomcat?) and test it as a black-box HTTP server?

14:48 and if I go that route, do I want to use enlive?

14:48 (not very familiar with it)

14:48 TimMc: I'm finding enlive's documentation problematic.

14:48 The lack of it, you see.

14:48 tcj: I'm trying to run a some Clojure code from Java. I ran 'lein uberjar' to create a jar file (all my files are .clj files in the resulting jar). I can then us this using clojure.lang.RT in a Scala REPL. Now I'm trying to use this in Tomcat and getting a FileNotFoundException saying it can't find a .clj file on my classpath. I'm stuck... The jar is in the correct place for Tomcat to see it. Any...

14:48 ...idea why Tomcat doesn't fine my .clj file?

14:49 gfredericks: TimMc: I don't imagine you have an alternative in mind?

14:50 TimMc: gfredericks: Not yet. :-(

14:50 tcj: I thought uberjar AOT'd all the clj.

14:50 ibdknox: hah korma ended up on HN again.. For those wanting to hear more about why I wrote it despite ClojureQL's existence: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3261479

14:51 tcj: TimMc: There are .class files for everything except for my files

14:51 I'm still confused why this works in a Scala REPL, but not in Tomcat

14:53 hiredman: tcj: tomcat != scala repl

14:53 the environments are different (the most likely do different kinds of classloader tricks)

14:54 tcj: hiredman: Thanks. Understood. I guess I'm looking for somebody that has experience running Clojure from Tomcat using clojure.lang.RT

14:54 hiredman: the fact that code behaves differently in different environments should not be surprising

14:55 tcj: I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of Tomcat's classloading... Anything in WEB-INF/lib should be in the app's classpath

14:56 I guess i'll dig into the RT code to see how it uses the CP to load files

14:56 hiredman: tcj: what makes you say that? (about WEB-INF/lib)

14:56 tcj: ibdknox: You wrote korma? Thanks! I've been using and like it.

14:57 ibdknox: tcj: you're quite welcome :)

14:57 tcj: hiredman: the docs at tomcat.apache.org

14:57 hiredman: tcj: WEB-INF is a war thing, you mentioned jars

14:58 devn: ibdknox: extra korma love from me

14:59 tcj: hiredman: thanks.

15:07 mefesto: tcj: i've used tomcat to load some clojure code from java ... been a while though.

15:08 tcj: have an example of how you are working with the clj files?

15:09 Raynes: devn: So, is pair.io awesome?

15:09 I bet it's awesome.

15:10 tcj: mefesto: RT.var("clojure.core", "require").invoke(Symbol.intern("cfr.web.core")); return RT.var(ns, function);

15:10 devn: Raynes: It's pretty great.

15:10 * Raynes is jealous.

15:10 devn: I could show it to you later if you'd like to pair

15:11 Raynes: I don't have an account.

15:11 tcj: mefesto: it blows up with this message: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate cfr/web/core__init.class or cfr/web/core.clj on classpath:

15:11 devn: You don't need one Raynes. You wont be able to administer the instance, but I could invite you to pair

15:11 Raynes: Oh. Awesome!

15:11 Sure then, ping me.

15:11 devn: will do

15:11 back to work for now :)

15:12 Raynes: Likewise.

15:12 mefesto: tcj: and that file is definitely bundled in your war? either in WEB-INF/classes or in a jar under WEB-INF/lib ?

15:12 tcj: mefesto: Yes

15:12 I've triple checked it

15:12 inspected the jar

15:14 mefesto: tcj: just for debugging to make sure that resource is available, in your java code can you log the result of something like: Thread.getCurrentThread().getContextClassLoader().getResource("path/to/clj/file");

15:16 tcj: mefesto: I think this may be something wrong on my end (surprise! :) The (uber) jar has clojure.lang.RT.class in it, but that class it not found. I discovered this after I removed clojure.jar from my classpath (it should be redundant with the uber jar, I think).

15:17 mefesto: tcj: so you have the clojure.jar in tomcat's shared lib dir?

15:18 tcj: mefesto: No, it was in my app's WEB-INF/lib dir

15:18 mefesto: the error message you pasted earlier doesn't complain about RT not being there ... instead it's specifically complaining about the clj file you are trying to load: cfr/web/core.clj

15:19 tcj: mefesto: I found the problem

15:19 INFO: validateJarFile(/home/ian/work/cfr/target/cfr-0.0.36/WEB-INF/lib/cfr-1.0.0-standalone.jar) - jar not loaded. See Servlet Spec 2.3, section 9.7.2. Offending class: javax/servlet/Servlet.class

15:19 I'm using compojure, which I'll be included the Servlet.class

15:19 Teach me to look at my logs :)

15:20 mefesto: Thanks for the help debugging!

15:20 mefesto: you shouldn't be bundling the servlet api classes with your war files ... is that what you think is happening?

15:20 ibdknox: tcj: you should try out Noir ;)

15:20 technomancy: that's twice in an hour I've wished for :when-let inside a for call

15:20 * mefesto loves noir :)

15:20 technomancy: wonder what that means

15:20 tcj: mefesto: I agree. I didn't realize I was..

15:21 gfredericks: given I have a generic java web-app which I've been able to deploy to tomcat easily, should it also be straightforward for me to use jetty to test it?

15:21 (instead of tomcat, which I imagine would be a lot more sluggish)

15:21 mefesto: tcj: maybe you have the servlet api listed under :dependencies instead of :dev-dependencies ?

15:21 tcj: if you're using leiningen ... not sure if that's the case

15:22 amalloy: technomancy: i want it fairly often. it'd be nice to have but probably not worth the syntax pollution

15:22 mefesto: tcj: i think you said you were using lein uberwar so maybe so :)

15:22 technomancy: amalloy: pollution is more onerous when it results in new top-level vars

15:23 tcj: mefesto: No servlet API, just compojure and some other stuff. I'm pretty sure it's compojure. I'll just do a normal jar and include the necessary jars in my Tomcat app

15:24 ibdknox: does anyone know of a simple way to format currency? (add commas and such)

15:24 amalloy: technomancy: i agree, but it's still more complexity/load to remember and document inside of for

15:24 tcj: ibdknox: I'll prolly eventually go to noir, but I want to start from the beginning. From what I understand, Noir builds on ring and compojure?

15:24 ibdknox: tcj: it does indeed

15:24 technomancy: amalloy: I agree enough to just gripe about it on IRC and not open a jira ticket

15:24 mefesto: gfredericks: it should be. you might find jetty to be nicer :)

15:24 brehaut: ibdknox: i *think* format should be able to do that with the right gibberish

15:24 ibdknox: brehaut: I see... *goes to read more about format*

15:25 amalloy: good, good. we're on the same side then. as you were

15:25 gfredericks: mefesto: kay, cool. Also I was making sure I wasn't ignoring any easier option.

15:25 * gfredericks swapped the "was" and "wasn't" the first time he typed that out.

15:26 ibdknox: or there's also java.text.NumberFormat :D

15:27 mefesto: is clj-http top of the heap as far as clojure http clients go?

15:27 amalloy: ibdknox: yeah, java has a built-in currency formatter somewhere

15:28 hiredman: mfoemmel: yes

15:28 ibdknox: yep, for future reference: (.format (NumberFormat/getCurrencyInstance) 32049852)

15:29 brehaut: i wonder if format should be extended to take a string or a java.text.Format instance?

15:32 scottj: does clj-http support just downloading the headers, not the actual content? (idk, does http support that?)

15:33 mefesto: scottj: that would be an http HEAD request

15:33 brehaut: scottj: although HEAD is only a GET without the content; theres no provision for a POST without content beside what the server implements itself

15:34 (because that would be meaningless)

15:34 scottj: ahh so clj-http.client/head

15:42 brehaut: ibdknox: i think the gibberish for format i was thinking of was (format "%,(.2f" (double 32049852)) and its not workable because if the number is negative, then you cant get the $ sign inside the parens as best i can tell

15:53 oreills: Hi all

15:55 gfredericks: ,(println "oreills: hi.")

15:55 clojurebot: oreills: hi.

15:56 oreills: Haha, very nice!

15:56 ,(println "Hello, world")

15:56 clojurebot: Hello, world

16:01 ibdknox: dsantiago: Got a stencil question for you

16:01 oreills: Has anyone had any luck setting up http://clojars.org/org.clojars.ibdknox/lein-nailgun with Clojure 1.3?

16:03 ibdknox: oreills: I haven't had any issues

16:03 oreills: Heh, seems like I asked that at a good moment. =P

16:04 When I install it as a leiningen plugin, lein starts kicking up errors and refuses to work until I delete the plugin from .lein/plugins/

16:04 ibdknox: what version of lein?

16:05 oreills: Installed from bootstrap: Leiningen 1.6.2 on Java 1.6.0_22 OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM

16:06 ibdknox: oreills: and what are the errors you're getting?

16:06 oreills: Hangon, I'll stick it in pastebin

16:06 devn: Anyone here running the new Java release for OSX?

16:07 I thought I'd hold off for a bit until I knew it didn't break muh clojures.

16:07 hiredman: the beta?

16:07 runs fine

16:07 devn: hiredman: iyes

16:07 hiredman: cool, thanks

16:07 hiredman: haven't tried any ui stuff

16:09 chouser: technomancy: emacs starter-kit is fantastic. That plus evil and about one week of usage and I'm pretty productive in emacs.

16:10 oreills: ibdknox: http://pastebin.com/cncs0Gvv

16:11 ibdknox: likely due to the JVM mismatch

16:12 try to clone the repo and install it, then plugin install

16:12 oreills: Ok, thanks very much, will give it a try. =)

16:15 scgilardi: ah, specific evil. cool.

16:16 technomancy: chouser: sweet; glad to hear it

16:16 gfredericks: is enlive not appropriate for http testing? Glancing through the code suggests it just does GETs?

16:18 TimMc: devn: What is pair.io?

16:18 brehaut: gfredericks: (enlive/html-snippet (:content (request something))) i think ?

16:18 TimMc: gfredericks: Use something else to get the data; feed the string to enlive.

16:19 devn: TimMc: Pure unadulterated awesome?

16:19 brehaut: enlive just uses the (not particular sophisticated) java url plumbing to fetch remote resources

16:19 technomancy: TimMc: http://pair.io has a video that explains it pretty well

16:19 gfredericks: TimMc: okay, so clj-http for the http part and enlive for the assertions?

16:19 devn: TimMc: heh, it's zkim's (clojuredocs) setup for spawning AWS instances with default templates

16:20 TimMc: on top of that you can invite github users to your repo, it imports their pubkey into the instance

16:20 TimMc: finally, you can save off an image for use later, or save the full current state of the image so you can resume where you left off

16:20 TimMc: technomancy: Call me old fashioned, but I prefer to skim over several paragraphs of text rather than subject myself to a forced audio/video linearization of a topic.

16:21 devn: So, um... what does it *do*?

16:21 Run websites?

16:22 technomancy: Also, no headphones.

16:22 gfredericks: like heroku for tmux?

16:23 TimMc: or vice versa

16:23 gfredericks: or something

16:27 I just realized this app is a client-heavy javascript app :|

16:28 * gfredericks was thinking what

16:29 gfredericks: dangit I need some kind of crazy browser simulator. There's nothing clojure-oriented in that arena is there?

16:29 ajsharp: is there a way to see in the docs or otherwise all the functions available to say, a hash map?

16:30 gfredericks: ajsharp: there's that whatsit-doohicky what cemerick made

16:30 ajsharp: http://www.clojureatlas.com/

16:30 cemerick: gfredericks: that's what I should've called it from the start

16:30 ajsharp: haha

16:30 whatsit-doohickey

16:30 brehaut: cemerick: was the domain already taken?

16:31 cemerick: brehaut: that's *always* the problem

16:31 brehaut: saw you released. Congrats, looks nice. :-)

16:31 brehaut: cemerick: thanks :)

16:31 gfredericks: cemerick: I had the complementary problem. I snagged lolwaffle.com but had not a clue how to make a million dollars with it.

16:31 brehaut: i feel the need to make a better CSS file for it now ;)

16:32 gfredericks: ajsharp: the clojure cheatsheet can be helpful too

16:33 ajsharp: gfredericks: aren't there ways to introspect on types in clojure?

16:33 cemerick: gfredericks: I have about a dozen domains like that :-)

16:33 brehaut: cemerick: id like to have a few people bash on it in the wild before trying to get it onto wordpress

16:34 cemerick: brehaut: understood.

16:34 brehaut: the domain registration industry would collapse if nerds stopped speculating on random fun domains

16:34 gfredericks: I think becausetheluckystiff.com might be still available

16:34 cemerick: brehaut: I'd help, but I can't let my yak-shaving descend into running a blog myself, etc.

16:35 gfredericks: ajsharp: the functions that you'd typically use to handle maps are not instance methods of the map type

16:35 brehaut: cemerick: thats no problem

16:35 gfredericks: ajsharp: so it depends on what exactly you're after

16:35 brehaut: i send a pull request to marginalia; no idea if they will accept it

16:35 ajsharp: gfredericks: right, but like, for ruby, i'll often look at the docs for the Enumerable module

16:36 brehaut: and seancorfield has expressed interest in getting it going himself

16:36 cemerick: brehaut: fixed that for you: https://twitter.com/#!/cemerick/statuses/138730619369816064

16:36 brehaut: cemerick: awesome :)

16:37 gfredericks: ajsharp: I guess things aren't really organized that way. There are the two resources I mentioned, and also lazybot's findfn feature can be quite useful

16:37 ajsharp: i see

16:37 gfredericks: $findfn {:foo "bar"} :baz :bang :bang

16:37 lazybot: [clojure.core/if-not clojure.core/dosync clojure.core/sync clojure.core/with-loading-context clojure.core/with-redefs clojure.core/condp clojure.core/get clojure.core/and clojure.core/locking clojure.core/io! clojure.core/when clojure.core/trampoline]

16:37 ajsharp: cemerick: i presume this is why you're building clojureatlas??

16:37 lazybot: ajsharp: Definitely not.

16:37 gfredericks: haha weird

16:38 ajsharp: hrm

16:38 wilkes: ajsharp: you can also checkout http://clojure.org/sequences and http://clojure.org/data_structures

16:38 cemerick: ajsharp: this, being?

16:38 The project's rationale is below the fold.

16:38 Sadly falling behind at the moment. seancorfield is going to whack me one if I don't get 1.3 up there, pronto.

16:39 ajsharp: yea, so far what i see looks interesting

16:39 i'm definitely finding myself missing the introspection of ruby as a way to discover what i can do with an object / type

16:40 gfredericks: ajsharp: also I believe basic questions are welcome in #clojure. Especially hairy questions about manipulating data structures people seem to have fun with.

16:42 cemerick: ajsharp: the operations available for a particular type of value in Clojure are an open set. The tradeoff is that you have very, very few base types, and tons of operations that work with them, so composition is natural and *expected* in Clojure, rather than something you need to design for explicitly.

16:42 gfredericks: (inc cemerick)

16:42 lazybot: ⇒ 8

16:42 cemerick: That's not actually a tradeoff, more like just one way that Clojure is OP. :-P

16:42 gfredericks: ^ I knew there was something to say along those lines, but didn't know what it was :)

16:43 cemerick: The actual tradeoff is that you can't just do (dir some-value), and instantly know what operations can be used with values of that type.

16:43 hiredman: ~#9

16:43 clojurebot: 9. It is better to have 100 functions operate on one data structure than 10 functions on 10 data structures.

16:43 ajsharp: cemerick: awesome, thanks, that's very helpful

16:44 wilkes: ajsharp: it's a big part of the learning curve. It's disorienting at first but a fair tradeoff in the long run

16:44 cemerick: hiredman: you should have clojurebot emit "— Perlis, http://www.cs.yale.edu/quotes.html" at the end of each quote.

16:45 That may be the most useful bot command ever, though.

16:45 ~#119

16:45 clojurebot: 119. Programming is an unnatural act.

16:45 cemerick: That takes care of a lot of the others.

16:49 oreills: ibdknox: Still no luck, am I meant to plugin install ibdknox/lein-nailgun or scott/lein-nailgun? The lein install creates a file in ~/.m2 called scott/lein-nailgun : http://pastebin.com/C4nh3tJz

16:49 TimMc: ~#55

16:49 clojurebot: 55. A LISP programmer knows the value of everything, but the cost of nothing.

16:50 nickik: cemerick: Have you seen the Standford-Class on Probabilistic Graphical Models. I have read your conj slides and I hope this class will help me understand them :)

16:52 TimMc: (inc hiredman)

16:52 lazybot: ⇒ 6

17:01 mebaran151: I'd like to teach lein to use a 32 bit jvm. I have both Java 1.6 and Java 1.7 installed. What's the best way to set up a project to use the 32 bit jvm (have to interact with an old school ODBC database...)

17:02 cemerick: nickik: I did. Her book is very good.

17:02 TimMc: mebaran151: It can't do 32-bit by default?

17:02 technomancy: mebaran151: set the JAVA_CMD environment variable

17:02 cemerick: Or, I should say, very good from my thumbing through it. I happened to choose the Darwiche, but either will likely do just fine.

17:02 technomancy: or use update-java-alternatives if you use a debian-based system

17:02 TimMc: Oh I see, you just want to select a JVM.

17:09 nickik: cemerick: Have you been to Standford? I will have to stuide up on math befor I can take the class. I will do the algorithems class for sure (im only self taught and lack some basics) and I hope I will have time for one other class. Either ML or PGM (or AI but thats not jet offered). Not sure witch one is preferable.

17:10 cemerick: nickik: nope, never been to Stanford

17:11 I'm self-taught too.

17:11 Though, I hope people take that as a cautionary tale and not a recommendation. :-)

17:15 nickik: cemerick: I wanted to go to collage next year but the will trie to get me to programm everything in java or c++. So maybe Ill to an Experiment on my self and embrace chances offered by standford.

17:16 gfredericks: is there a way with leiningen to do "provided" dependencies?

17:16 nickik: Thats more of a creazy idea then a plan.

17:16 cemerick: nickik: learning how Java works isn't the worst thing in the world if you really want to understand Clojure top to bottom.

17:18 mebaran151: technomancy: thanks! anyway to tell that directly to the lein project?

17:19 rather than polute the environment (I'm running off of Windows Powershell)

17:20 gfredericks: maybe that's not really what I want anyhow

17:20 or maybe it is

17:20 technomancy: no, it can't be checked into the project

17:20 gfredericks: if I want to avoid (Class/forName ...) everywhere

17:20 technomancy: usually JAVA_CMD is specific to the machine you're on anyway

17:23 gtrak: gfredericks, you could do the eval approach

17:24 gfredericks: gtrak: eval! dang thing is so shunned I forgot it existed.

17:25 gtrak: they do that trick in clojure.tools.logging to compile at runtime, with a class that might not exist in the classpath

17:26 gfredericks, https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging/blob/7694fd2067e3366b63b50dc698c32da17488ea10/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/logging/impl.clj#L82

17:26 oreills: How do I install a lein plugin after cloning the repo? I've tried lein install and it's created a folder in ~/.m2/repositories, but how do I now point lein plugin install at that location rather than the central repos?

17:27 mebaran151: technomancy: thanks, yeah this project is weird; I have to interface with an old 32 bit odbc sybase db, so I'm little bit pickier with regard to my jvm than I usually would be

17:28 technomancy: yeah, leiningen doesn't really attempt to manage system-level dependencies

17:28 it's outside the scope

17:29 gfredericks: gtrak: looks right

17:29 gtrak: oreills, when you do a lein plugin install, it copies it to a folder whose name escapes me

17:29 duck1123: ~/.lein/plugins

17:29 clojurebot: Excuse me?

17:29 gtrak: oreills, ~/.lein/plugins$ ls

17:29 lein-eclipse-1.0.0.jar ritz-0.1.7.jar swank-clojure-1.3.2.jar

17:30 oreills: lein plugin install seems to fetch from clojars/maven repos and copy to ~/.lein/plugins

17:30 I've tried copying the jar generated from lein install there manually

17:30 But it's giving me lein errors still

17:30 technomancy: oreills: you should be able to do "lein plugin install" if you've done the regular "lein install"

17:31 R4p70r: Does anyone have an idea for a simple Clojure project that can benefit the community? Look into some bug or develop a simple lib maybe.

17:32 oreills: technomancy: Using the original url? e.g. lein plugin install org.clojars.ibdknox/lein-nailgun "1.1.1"

17:32 technomancy: it's not a URL, but yeah

17:33 mebaran151: ah technomancy, I found a cleverer hack: I just launch lein from a 32 bit version of powershell and Windows handles the rest

17:33 technomancy: just match whatever's in project.clj

17:34 oreills: Yeah, it seems to install, but then it makes lein throw "java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.KeywordLookupSite.<init>" errors for every task after that

17:34 I guess I haven't got the right environment for the plugin

17:35 technomancy: sounds like the plugin is broken

17:35 oreills: ibdknox said I should clone the repo, install it and then install plugin because of a JVM mismatch

17:36 Am I causing problems using openjdk?

17:36 Should update-java-alternatives to sun and then reinstall lein?

17:36 technomancy: nah, openjdk works fine

17:37 oreills: Hm. =/ Could it be a 64bit thing then?

17:37 technomancy: I don't think so

17:38 oreills: Hm, ok, I'll just submit a bug report on github, then, unless you have any other advice?

17:41 technomancy: you'll have to run it by him

17:41 oreills: Ok, thanks very much for your time.

17:42 Also, thanks very much for leiningen, it's brilliant. I was dreading getting clojure set up on another laptop and the bootstrapping made it take about 5 mins. =)

17:44 technomancy: heh; great

17:45 gfredericks: if I do (eval '(new foo.bar.Baz)) and nobody has loaded Baz yet, will it still work?

17:45 oreills: Am off, see you later

17:45 Thanks again

17:47 gfredericks: hm, eval doesn't see locals :/

17:48 hiredman: clojure doesn't have reified environments

17:48 (at runtime)

17:49 gfredericks: Guess I can pass something in with a dynamic var?

17:49 hiredman: best to think on it

17:49 you most likely don't need eval

17:50 gfredericks: hiredman: I'm using classes not available at compile time

17:50 so else I could do Class/forName

17:50 hiredman: and?

17:50 gfredericks: which I mentioned earlier and it was suggested I do eval instead

17:50 hiredman: right, you could just use reflection

17:50 gfredericks: so I suppose you're saying eval is worse instead of better

17:51 hiredman: well, I dunno, possible whoever it was the suggested it have more information available

17:51 you could also consider using clojure.lang.Reflector directly

17:51 basically you are using eval as a wrapper for it

17:53 gtrak: hiredman, I suggested it, I pulled it out of my ass :-)

17:53 gfredericks: Reflector/invokeConstructor I suppose is what I need

17:53 still will be doing Class/forName, but oh well

17:53 the var trick didn't even work for some reason

17:53 hiredman: var trick?

17:54 gfredericks: (def ^:dynamic eval-arg)

17:54 then (binding [eval-arg ...] (eval '(new Foo eval-arg)))

17:55 gtrak: gfredericks, i think what you want there is a macro

17:55 gfredericks: maybe it has to be fully qualified?

17:55 gtrak: eh?

17:55 gtrak: ah, that might work

17:56 amalloy: gfredericks: ` is way better than ' here

17:56 if you're going to be eval-ing

17:56 gfredericks: amalloy: good tip

17:57 amalloy: wait will that not trip up on the non-existent class?

17:57 if the class isn't available and my method is never called then nothing should break

17:57 amalloy: well Foo wouldn't work anyway

17:58 but com.bar.Foo would probably be unaffected by whether you use ' or `

17:59 gfredericks: ah right

17:59 of course

17:59 mebaran151: I'm having a little bit of swank trouble; installed the lein swank plugin but clojure-jack-in fails with an invalid unicode escape

17:59 maybe my emacs is out of date?

18:00 I just resurrected my Clojure environment for this new project, so the toolkit got a little rusty

18:00 gfredericks: dang. Creating a jruby array doesn't seem to be as simple as you'd expect

18:02 headius: gfredericks: how so?

18:02 mebaran151: exact error is non-hex digit used for unicode escape

18:02 gfredericks: headius: I'm looking at http://www.docjar.com/docs/api/org/jruby/RubyArray.html

18:02 headius: can't do anything without acquiring one of them Ruby objects

18:02 headius: that's correct; because we have a lot of runtime state, you need to associate it with some jruby runtime

18:03 gfredericks: headius: isn't there only one Ruby though?

18:03 headius: certainly not

18:03 there can be arbitrarily many with their own classes, etc

18:03 or just one

18:04 hiredman: how else would you get fast forking on the jvm?

18:04 headius: hah

18:04 gfredericks: oh I should have read through the second sentence in the docs there

18:04 headius: well, we can certainly spin up isolated ruby environments :)

18:04 mebaran151: also when I use slime-connect

18:04 it fails unexpectedly, without any error, as though it connected, but the slime buffer doesn't pop up

18:04 hiredman: clojure, sort of painfully, makes you fiddle with classpaths

18:05 gfredericks: headius: so is there a method here for getting the "default"? Do I even know what I'm talking about?

18:05 ah, I see a getDefaultInstance method :)

18:06 or maybe getCurrentInstance

18:13 hiredman: ~#68

18:13 clojurebot: 68. If we believe in data structures, we must believe in independent (hence simultaneous) processing. For why else would we collect items within a structure? Why do we tolerate languages that give us the one without the other? -- Alan J. Perlis

18:35 Raynes: dakrone: ping

18:35 dakrone: Raynes: pong

18:37 Raynes: dakrone: https://github.com/Raynes/tentacles/blob/master/src/tentacles/repos.clj#L214 is the stuff I was working on that requires multipart (I didn't know it at the time). Just something you can work with to test, if you so desire.

18:38 dakrone: okay, I'll take a look and see if I can get the multipart uploads working

18:45 Raynes: dakrone: In other news, thanks for the awesome work maintaining clj-http. It has been a total breeze to use.

18:46 dakrone: Raynes: glad to hear it, thanks for the feedback

19:01 patchwork: what repository can I get algo.generic from? it is not on clojars.org

19:01 hiredman: clojure.org stuff is all in the sonatype oss repos

19:02 patchwork: Hmm… this one?

19:02 hiredman: if it doesn't have a release it is in the snapshot repo, otherwise release

19:02 patchwork: :repositories {"sonatype-oss-public" "https://oss.sonatype.org/content/groups/public/&quot;}

19:02 hiredman: https://oss.sonatype.org/content/repositories/snapshots/ is the snapshot repo

19:02 patchwork: Aha

19:04 Hmm, lein still fails to find it:

19:04 [INFO] Unable to find resource 'org.clojure:algo.generic:jar:0.1.0-SNAPSHOT' in repository sonatype-oss-snapshots (https://oss.sonatype.org/content/repositories/snapshots/)

19:04 hiredman: is that a good version for algo.generic?

19:05 patchwork: Aha, it is at 1.1

19:05 I am trying to use a project that is including it

19:05 *requiring it

19:05 and apparently they have the wrong version in there

19:05 : (

19:07 So I can just override this in my local project

19:07 and it will figure it out

19:12 brehaut: how do i get emacs to recompile and reload elisp ?

19:23 moogatronic: I'm trying to perform an operation on each line of a file with (with-open … (doseq [line]) … but I also need to aggregate counts of things I find inside of each line I have a (reduce f {} col) going on in there. I'm a FN noob and am having trouble reasoning about how to "save" my map from line to line…

19:26 alex_baranosky: moogatronic: reductions, maybe?

19:28 moogatronic: in my mind I need to somehow preserve the map I generate in my reduce and pass it back into the next "iteration" of the doseq, but i don't know how to do that.

19:28 or if that's what i should really be doing. heh.

19:29 bhenry: moogatronic: is the file too big to hold the seq in memory?

19:29 hiredman: sounds like you want reduce

19:30 why do you have doseq?

19:30 moogatronic: (with-open [rdr (io/reader in)] (doseq [line (line-seq rdr)] …)

19:31 well, i guess i'm not really producing any output this time..

19:31 maybe i don't need doseq

19:31 hiredman: why do you have a doseq?

19:31 moogatronic: I have some more code in the body that is reducing maps that I create from the values in the Input file's line.

19:32 hiredman: why do you have a doseq?

19:32 moogatronic: hiredman: my answer is that i"m a noob and I found an example that had doseq and copied it.

19:32 because another part of my program had to produce output from simple text processing as well.

19:32 hiredman: unless you know why you are using something, stop using it

19:32 moogatronic: bhenry: yeah, way too big.

19:33 bhenry: moogatronic: (reduce your-fn-here {} (line-seq rdr))

19:33 moogatronic: hiredman: obviously, but I can't magically generate knowledge without trying thigns.

19:33 and reading, and trying and googling and asking ,etc.

19:34 bheary: yeah, i think that is probably what i need to do.

19:34 hiredman: moogatronic: yes, but unless you have a theory, you are just flailing around, you aren't learning

19:35 moogatronic: hiredman: I had an incorrect theory based on prior success at another task earlier in the day. that is all.

19:35 hiredman: ok, so you just didn't want to share your theory?

19:36 moogatronic: hiredman: dude, i'm not sure what your issue is? I pretty much described to the best of my ability what I was trying to do… Anyway, bhenry has assisted, no more discussion from you necessary.

19:37 hiredman: I mean, I asked, and I think the closest thing to a "I am using doseq because" was "y answer is that i"m a noob and I found an example that had doseq and copied it."

19:38 moogatronic: The expanded version is I used doseq to iterate over some lines to produce some sideeffects in code earlier, was adapting this code, and am a noob and don't fully understand every aspect of clojure AND/OR functional programming as I hail from imperative roots.

19:38 hiredman: so you were looking for an imperative for loop?

19:39 moogatronic: zomg.

19:40 * moogatronic applies troll armor, apparently this is necessary?

19:40 hiredman: how am I trolling?

19:41 ~fire

19:41 clojurebot: fire is “Give a man fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life”

19:41 bhenry: maybe if you answer the questions and receive the responses openly you will learn what is necessary to know which tool to use next time.

19:41 hiredman: you have a specific problem, which is a sympton of a general lack of understanding

19:42 in this case it seems like you were looking for a for loop

19:42 which in clojure you almost never want

19:42 you want sequence processing, map/reduce/filter

19:43 so now you know more about clojrue then you did from just "use reduce"

19:43 which was my first response

19:47 moogatronic: hiredman: I think what was happening was "the chicken and the egg problem" -- I'm not articulate enough currently to even undersand how to translate my deficiencies in undestanding.

19:48 But thanks for the continued explaination.

19:50 devn: man, mutlimethods are a blast

19:50 technomancy: is the new lein templating stuff getting into lein today?

19:50 technomancy: devn: yeah, as of ~4 hours ago?

19:51 devn: technomancy: cool, looking forward to using them

19:51 technomancy: I was imagining something sort of akin to gemsets like in rvm

19:51 tolstoy: Is there a discussion somewhere for using "hidden" name spaces? my.lib.internal, or something like that?

19:51 technomancy: devn: that's profiles, which is actually a completely different discussion

19:51 devn: technomancy: a skeleton project with a default gemset sort of thing

19:52 technomancy: interesting, didn't know that was on the table

19:52 technomancy: devn: not sure how much of that has made it to documentation beyond channel logs, but it's definitely in the planning stages

19:52 probably deserves its own wiki page at this point

19:52 devn: technomancy: I think a really great combination would be clojars.org/templates or something along those lines

19:53 an easy way to share templates

19:53 technomancy: devn: yep, templates are just mvn artifacts

19:53 lein plugin install lein-newnew 0.1.0 # <- to use it in lein 1.x

19:53 devn: technomancy: sorry I keep bringing this up whenever I talk to you, but what is the status on clojars being dev'able in a local env?

19:54 technomancy: should I remove lein-newnew if I'm upgrading?

19:54 technomancy: upgrading to master?

19:54 basically: you shouldn't upgrade to master right now

19:54 devn: ah, okay -- i was under the impression there was a full release ~4 hours ago

19:54 technomancy: oh, that was just the merge

19:54 devn: gotcha, nevermind! :)

19:55 technomancy: no progress on clojars, sorry

19:55 devn: technomancy: no need to apologize. is there anything I can do to push it forward? Is a rewrite worth considering?

19:56 technomancy: you can hack on it from my "heroku" branch, but it's likely that won't be merged into master, we'll probably just be taking code from that bit by bit over to master

19:57 devn: the primary force right now is "pull" from build tools -- would be nice to see clojars.org get some life of its own to push new capabilities back down

19:57 technomancy: if you want to get hacking, it would be great to investigate the viability of deploying to s3

19:57 actually you should be fine to do that off my heroku branch; the odds of conflict are low

19:58 once lein settles down a bit I'll try to put together a plan of action for clojars

19:58 * devn wonders if clojars.org donations are a good idea

19:58 technomancy: step-by-step for getting my new features into master

19:58 devn: would be good to look into github's pledgie integration for prior art

19:58 devn: technomancy: sounds good -- ill give it a look this evening

19:58 technomancy: which ISTR got disabled

19:58 devn: glad to have help with that, thanks

19:58 devn: Intl Society for Third-Sector Research?

19:59 Never heard of 'em. Seriously.

19:59 technomancy: ~istr

19:59 clojurebot: Gabh mo leithscéal?

19:59 technomancy: ~istr is I seem to recall

19:59 clojurebot: c'est bon!

19:59 devn: ahhh

19:59 sorry, I'm not up on the hip new lingo.

20:00 technomancy: that's why we have a bot

20:00 devn: technomancy: anyway, I'm going to get back to toying around with a REPL-driven documentation swiss army knife

20:00 but clojars is next.

20:00 technomancy: sweet

20:01 devn: cheers

20:02 technomancy: are there any lisps in existence whose readers allow preservation of comments?

20:12 TimMc: technomancy: Hmm. The reader would need to look ahead to know it was done.

20:12 technomancy: TimMc: already has to; you can't read off a reader unless it's a pushbackreader

20:12 TimMc: I guess that's needed for some literals.

20:16 amalloy: technomancy: so you'd want some kind of modal reader? like, (read-string :with-comments "(foo ;; is awesome\nbar)") => '(foo #<comment is aweomse> bar)?

20:17 technomancy: yeah, what good is code-as-data if you can't round-trip it through a file?

20:17 hiredman: yeah, I don't think metadata is a good a idea, just have comments as an object in the stream of objects

20:17 technomancy: just seems like things like marginalia and clojure-refactoring have to do a lot of extra work because the reader is missing this functionality

20:18 amalloy: technomancy: you'd want to keep whitespace as well

20:18 technomancy: amalloy: not as important as comments, but yes, you'd need it if you couldn't agree on a pretty-printer.

20:19 amalloy: technomancy: if you're round-tripping source code, you need to keep newlines., i don't trust any pretty-printer to decide where the newlines go in my function calls

20:19 technomancy: well, that's a personal matter. =)

20:20 brehaut: i think the rules for good lisp style are concrete enough that if there was a tool like this, the pretty printer could achieve that style consistently

20:21 (ie if everyones pretty printing efforts were focused on one project rather than 3)

20:22 amalloy: brehaut: i welcome emacs's indenter into my heart, but it can't have my newlines

20:22 TimMc: technomancy: What brings this up?

20:22 technomancy: TimMc: just fooling around with marginalia

20:23 TimMc: Ah.

20:23 That's an interesting point.

20:23 brehaut: technomancy: would a round tripping reader need to preserve map and set ordering?

20:23 gfredericks: kids these days and their newfangled drugs

20:23 technomancy: brehaut: interesting! probably.

20:24 well, maybe only for array-maps?

20:24 gfredericks: and metadata tag ordering

20:25 and reader macro info

20:25 brehaut: gfredericks: yes true. i made a prefix node type in my brush to handle that case

20:26 gfredericks: (let [s (slurp "source.clj")] (with-meta (read (str "(" s ")")) {:source s}))

20:26 ^ round tripping reader :)

20:27 oh and reader-eval?

20:27 technomancy: perhaps we've discovered the reason(s) why no other lisps do this!

20:28 gfredericks: are there any issues with back-quote?

20:28 brehaut: is this something that should be jumped on while the reader is only moderately complex though ?

20:30 gfredericks: number radices

20:30 brehaut: huh. the code that ` generates caught me by surprise

20:30 gfredericks: float forms

20:30 technomancy: brehaut: it does seem to jive with Rich's "knobs to turn down *and* up the dynamicity/richness level" talk.

20:30 brehaut: ,(read-string "`(1 2 ~@(map inc [1 2]))")

20:30 clojurebot: (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list 1) (clojure.core/list 2) (map inc [1 2])))

20:31 gfredericks: brehaut: ##(read-string "````````a")

20:31 lazybot: java.lang.StackOverflowError

20:31 hiredman: https://github.com/hiredman/syntax-quote *cough* *cough*

20:31 brehaut: technomancy: sadly, i havent seen that yet, so i'll take your word for it

20:31 gfredericks: hiredman: I like the word "smacros"

20:32 hiredman: it's fun

20:32 gfredericks: I would use a library by that name regardless of what it did

20:32 technomancy: more like smackros, am I right?

20:32 brehaut: gfredericks: i still havent managed to wrap my head around the nested concats stack overflow

20:32 TimMc: OK, so it would be interesting to have a surface-form reader.

20:33 gfredericks: brehaut: in this case I think it's just because the forms generated by nested backquotes grow exponentially, and I suppose the reader ties the stack to the nesting of the forms it generates

20:33 amalloy: technomancy: how would you do it, though? comments can't be actual "source code forms" in ordinary programs. if they were, then macros would get passed them, and would have to explicitly ignore them. so if your turned on a special comment-preserving reader, it would be returning objects that aren't "really" code

20:34 hiredman: well, concat eats the stack

20:34 TimMc: ```foo becomes (#<squo> (#<squo> (#<squo> (#<sym> "foo"))))

20:35 hiredman: adding layers of lazy seqs without realizing them means you have to call at least N methods on the stack for N layers of lazy seqs to realize a single item in the seq

20:35 amalloy: actually the compiler could discard them when doing macro expansion

20:36 TimMc: hiredman: I think I understand, but what's an example?

20:36 hiredman: but meh, yeah, sounds like an AnnotatedLispReader

20:36 brehaut: hiredman: ah right. for some reason in my head i had some magic trampolining in the realisation of lazy-seqs. clearly not matching with reality

20:39 gfredericks: ,(for [i (range 1 7)] (count (flatten (read-string (str (apply str (repeat i "`")) "a")))))

20:39 clojurebot: (2 8 41 221 1202 ...)

20:39 brehaut: ,(count (flatten (read-string "{:a 1 :b {1 2 3 4}}")))

20:39 clojurebot: 0

20:40 brehaut: ,(flatten (read-string "{:a 1 :b {1 2 3 4}}"))

20:40 clojurebot: ()

20:40 gfredericks: o_o

20:40 brehaut: maybe clojure is broken

20:40 brehaut: gfredericks: nah, flatten and maps dont mix

20:40 gfredericks: oh

20:40 brehaut: amalloy has a treeseq trick for it

20:41 hiredman: flatten just means you failed to use ->> and mapcat correctly

20:41 brehaut: ~flatten |just means| you failed to use ->> and mapcat correctly

20:41 clojurebot: Alles klar

20:41 gfredericks: ~shrimp

20:41 clojurebot: shrimp must be #=(str "super" "awesome")

20:42 fbru02: hi all, how do you use proxy ? my understanding is that you have to do : (proxy [ClassToReify] (at-least-one-method-to-override ... ))

20:42 amalloy: brehaut: well, not much of a trick, since i just copied the source of flatten and then made it behave more like i want

20:42 alex_baranosky: does anyone know of a way to set an environment variable from Clojure?

20:42 moogatronic: hiredman: crap. =) I have lots of flatten in my code too. =)

20:42 brehaut: amalloy: lol :)

20:42 fbru02: ?

20:42 hiredman: infered because shrimp are endofunctors, endofunctors are monads, and monads are #=(str "super" "awesome")

20:42 amalloy: &(count (remove coll? (tree-seq coll? seq {:a 1 :b {1 2 3 4}})))

20:42 lazybot: ⇒ 7

20:42 brehaut: the difference between flatten and mapcat is why coffeescript is a dead end ;)

20:43 hiredman: so says that guy who that blog post that one time

20:43 wrote

20:43 brehaut: indeed :P

20:43 technomancy: alex_baranosky: that would require the JVM not completely failing at unix

20:43 brehaut: and went and pissed off a bunch of coffee script fans apparently

20:43 alex_baranosky: technomancy: I'm working on adding colorization to Midje console output, and thought about using an environment variable for it

20:44 gfredericks: hiredman: holy crap. It was simpler for me to just misremember that amalloy had set shrimp to #=(str "super" "awesome") directly.

20:44 hiredman: I know, inference is sweet

20:44 technomancy: alex_baranosky: there's a heinous hack you can do with reflection, but it's probably better to think of another way

20:44 hiredman: the problem is all these complicated verbs, adjectives, and adverbs

20:45 TimMc: fbru02: Looks about right. What are you asking?

20:45 hiredman: and part of speech tagging slows everything down too much

20:45 alex_baranosky: I could just make people set the envirnoment variable manually if they want to turn colorization *off*

20:46 ajsharp: so i'm getting an OutOfMemory error from the jvm, but I thought I had written this pretty efficiently (not holding on to head position)

20:46 https://gist.github.com/1384628

20:46 fbru02: TimMc: actually i was asking for advice ... so if i override one method in my proxy then the other methods still call the superclass method ?

20:46 ajsharp: i'm passing the function a lazy seq of about 50,000 items

20:46 brehaut: ajsharp: puppies are injured whenever closing parens get their own line

20:47 TimMc: fbru02: Yes, it is basically like "extends" in Java.

20:47 ajsharp: brehaut: nice, good to know

20:47 fbru02: TimMc: thanks

20:47 amalloy: was awesome meeting in the conj

20:47 ajsharp: brehaut: still trying to figure out all the style rules and idioms

20:47 brehaut: ~style

20:47 clojurebot: style is http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt

20:47 TimMc: That's a decent guide.

20:48 ajsharp: brehaut: fixed ;)

20:48 amalloy: ajsharp: looks like you're rewriting merge-with

20:49 brehaut: ajsharp: ##(update-in {} [:a] (fnil inc 0))

20:49 lazybot: ⇒ {:a 1}

20:49 ajsharp: amalloy: looks like merge-with actually merges the values in the two maps, no?

20:49 TimMc: brehaut: fnil!

20:49 amalloy: (apply merge-with + (for [obj coll] {(str (year obj) "/" (month obj)) 1}))

20:49 brehaut: ajsharp: also, you still have one injured puppy

20:50 amalloy: fbru02: thanks, nice to meet you as well

20:50 ajsharp: brehaut: heh, you're right, fixed again

20:50 amalloy: oh, and of course this merge-with is actually just frequencies

20:50 alex_baranosky: technomancy: what do you think about simply making people set the environment variable manually if they want to turn colorization *off*

20:51 amalloy: &(doc frequencies) ; ajsharp

20:51 lazybot: ⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/frequencies ([coll]) Returns a map from distinct items in coll to the number of times they appear. nil

20:51 technomancy: alex_baranosky: I did something like that with lein-difftest; worked out fine

20:51 brehaut: ajsharp: did that update-in make sense above? (even though amalloy is showing you a generally better approach, that if pattern you used is generalised with update-in)

20:52 amalloy: Raynes: why is doc so ugly today?

20:52 ajsharp: brehaut: i'm trying it now, but i understand what it does

20:52 Raynes: amalloy: Dunno. It shouldn't be.

20:52 ajsharp: looks like it's often more concise than reduce

20:52 alex_baranosky: technomancy: its the most straightforward, which I can tweak if need be

20:53 Raynes: &(doc frequencies)

20:53 lazybot: ⇒ "([coll]); Returns a map from distinct items in coll to the number of times they appear."

20:53 brehaut: ,(frequencies "Hello, world!")

20:53 clojurebot: {\space 1, \! 1, \d 1, \e 1, \H 1, ...}

20:54 ajsharp: brehaut: or would i use the update-in inside the reduce?

20:54 bhenry: &(doc frequencies) ;with comment???

20:54 lazybot: bhenry: How could that be wrong?

20:54 ⇒ "([coll]); Returns a map from distinct items in coll to the number of times they appear."

20:54 brehaut: ajsharp: update-in is just a replacement for that (if (get …) (assoc … (get …)) …) soup you have

20:54 ajsharp: ah ok

20:54 brehaut: err you were using merge not assoc

20:55 ajsharp: yea, to continually build the accumulated map

20:56 brehaut: ajsharp: update-in lets you update a nested associated structure given a path through the structure (as a sequence of keys) and a function to apply to the value at the end.

20:56 ajsharp: fnil lets you wrap up a function that doesnt accept a nil argument so that it has a default if a nil is passed

20:57 ,(for [f [inc (fnil inc 0)], a [nil 10]] (f a))

20:57 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NullPointerException>

20:57 brehaut: haha fail

20:57 ((fnil inc 0) nil)

20:58 ,((fnil inc 0) nil)

20:58 clojurebot: 1

20:58 brehaut: ,(inc nil)

20:58 clojurebot: #<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>

20:58 technomancy: ,(into {} (map #(.split % "=") ["one=1" "two=2"]))

20:58 clojurebot: #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>

20:58 amalloy: ajsharp: https://gist.github.com/1384650 for what it's worth

20:58 technomancy: what's going on there?

20:58 TimMc: &(map (fnil inc 1) [2 nil 0])

20:58 lazybot: ⇒ (3 2 1)

20:58 TimMc: erm

20:58 &(map (fnil inc 0) [2 nil 0])

20:58 lazybot: ⇒ (3 1 1)

20:58 TimMc: much better

20:59 amalloy: technomancy: split returns a String[], which isn't a MapEntry?

20:59 technomancy: yeah, but it doesn't really require a mapentry

20:59 ajsharp: brehaut: wow, fnil is so simple but a really nice tool to have around

21:00 TimMc: ,(into {} [1 2])

21:00 clojurebot: #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>

21:00 TimMc: ,(into {} [[1 2]])

21:00 clojurebot: {1 2}

21:00 technomancy: ,(into {} ['(1 2)])

21:00 clojurebot: #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>

21:00 TimMc: ,(into {} '[(1 2)])

21:00 brehaut: ajsharp: theres lots of great little funs like that in the core lib. juxt is another #clojure favorite

21:00 clojurebot: #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>

21:00 amalloy: technomancy: no, but it doesn't do what you hope

21:00 TimMc: $source into

21:00 lazybot: into is http://is.gd/7toqQd

21:00 technomancy: just seems odd that it's so particular

21:00 the root is trying to conj on a tranisent hashmap

21:01 TimMc: ugh lazybot why 1.2.x?

21:01 technomancy: *root cause

21:01 amalloy: if the input to conj is seqable, then it assumes it's a seq of MapEntries

21:01 technomancy: ,(instance? clojure.lang.MapEntry [1 2])

21:01 clojurebot: false

21:01 amalloy: &(conj {} '([1 2]))

21:01 lazybot: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry

21:02 amalloy: the exception for vectors is only if they're pairs at the top level

21:02 TimMc: Irritating.

21:03 ,(into {} [[1 2 3]])

21:03 clojurebot: #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Vector arg to map conj must be a pair>

21:03 TimMc: Ah, *very* specific.

21:03 amalloy: eg, if you got a seq of pairs you could conj them all sequentially (as into does), but you can't just conj the whole thing (like you could if they were a seq of MapEntry)

21:03 TimMc: ,(into {} [[1 2] [4 5 6]])

21:03 clojurebot: #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Vector arg to map conj must be a pair>

21:04 technomancy: it just seems odd to make an exception for 2-element vectors and not 2-element lists

21:04 amalloy: technomancy: "the root is trying to conj on a tranisent hashmap" - i don't understand this. it's calling conj! on the transient, which works fine if it's passed a correctly-typed arg

21:04 technomancy: I'm just disputing the narrow definition of "correctly-typed"

21:04 amalloy: i agree about the silliness of the exception for two-element vectors, but i think it's probably practical

21:05 TimMc: Would there be anything wrong with accepting anything it can call first and second on?

21:06 amalloy: TimMc: i think it would break the *other* crazy exception conj makes

21:06 TimMc: What's that?

21:07 amalloy: that you can conj a seq of MapEntries instead of conjing them each individually

21:07 TimMc: ew

21:07 amalloy: it would make (conj x (list (MapEntry...) (MapEntry...))) ambiguous - is it a pair of objects, or two entries?

21:07 TimMc: This is in PersistentMap or whatever?

21:08 amalloy: APersistentMap.cons

21:08 TimMc: Sounds like a pretty bad idea in the first place.

21:08 amalloy: agreed

21:08 TimMc: Well, there's always 1.4... :-)

21:08 hiredman: APersistentMap.cons is sloppy with the case analysis

21:09 amalloy: yeah, rich was really enthusiastic about making sure that every future release has some breaking changes like 1.3

21:09 hiredman: i'm sure you're right, but what in particular are you referring to?

21:09 hiredman: do people really use conj that much?

21:09 brehaut: amalloy: poes law has just bitten me. i cant tell if you are joking

21:09 hiredman: I have seqs of maps, seqs use cons, maps use assoc or merge

21:10 amalloy: hiredman: i think conj mostly gets used "transitively" by into

21:10 brehaut: hah. well you'll just have to wait till the video comes out

21:10 * brehaut curses the pacific ocean

21:11 amalloy: (no. he said they want to avoid more breaking releases)

21:11 hiredman: amalloy: well, you can pass a pair (2 element vector) but not a vector of pairs, but you can pass a seq of pairs

21:11 brehaut: amalloy: thanks :)

21:12 hiredman: the utility of the last for loop there just seems questionable

21:12 TimMc: (into {} [[1 2] [3 4]])

21:12 ,(into {} [[1 2] [3 4]])

21:12 clojurebot: {1 2, 3 4}

21:12 amalloy: well, the whole thing is crazy, but it looks vaguely like it was designed to be crazy, so i'm not inclined to call it sloppy

21:12 hiredman: utility vs. errors from accepting to large a variety of input arguments

21:12 too

21:13 TimMc: ,(into {} [1 2] [3 4])

21:13 clojurebot: #<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$into>

21:13 amalloy: TimMc: you're looking for ##(conj {} [[1 2] [3 4]])

21:13 lazybot: ⇒ {[1 2] [3 4]}

21:13 TimMc: right

21:13 amalloy: vs ##(conj {} '([1 2] [3 4]))

21:13 lazybot: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry

21:13 amalloy: er, except those would have to be map entries

21:13 hiredman: also, into only take one thing to into is meh

21:13 amalloy: (inc hiredman)

21:13 lazybot: ⇒ 7

21:14 amalloy: that's one that actually impacts me sometimes, unlike the crazy options for conj

21:14 bobhope: If I'm writing a compiler in clojure, if I want to do typechecking, should I learn core.logic, or just implement the checks/unification/etc myself with zippers?

21:14 * amalloy had to write (reduce into x [a b c]) instead of (into x a b c)

21:15 hiredman: the pain

21:15 TimMc: amalloy: Are there two distinct inputs to conj that give the same result, just using vectors?

21:16 amalloy: TimMc: that's trivially true with something like (conj {:a 1} [:b 2]) vs (conj {:b 2} [:a 1])

21:17 but no, if the input map is originally empty, and the argument is a vector, no two vectors would yield the same map

21:18 gfredericks: would a clojure->jruby data converter be useful as a public lib? does it already exist somewhere?

21:19 hiredman: does it give you something beyond what you get via java interop?

21:19 gfredericks: hiredman: calling a clojure function from jruby just gives me a bunch of native-seeming objects

21:19 if there's an easy way to rubyize them I couldn't figure it out at the console

21:20 e.g. keywords don't become ruby symbols

21:21 so the point is that the jruby consumer does not have to do interop

21:21 hiredman: oh, I was just thinking, jruby can deal with java.util.Map maps

21:21 which clojure maps are

21:21 gfredericks: right

21:21 I'm writing this for ruby-coworkers who do not want to have to think about the jvm

21:22 hiredman: their loss

21:22 gfredericks: hiredman: indeed. but my question still stands.

21:25 headius: in general, utilities for the JRuby side to make Java types feel more like Ruby types would be preferable to anything language or library-specific

21:25 i.e. if the lists and maps you get back from clojure don't feel ruby enough, help us make them feel better

21:25 it will apply to any lists and maps coming in from java

21:26 gfredericks: headius: that's an interesting point

21:26 TimMc: Wow, that's annoying: Occurrences of ".cons" in the Java side of Clojure are really conj operations.

21:26 gfredericks: headius: keywords are kind of clojure-specific though

21:27 TimMc: Not confusing at all!

21:27 gfredericks: TimMc: you betcha!

21:27 headius: what exactly are keywords

21:27 TimMc: headius: interned thingies

21:27 gfredericks: headius: equivalent to ruby symbols

21:27 so ideally when the rubyist calls the clojure function the clojure keywords become ruby symbols

21:27 TimMc: headius: Globally interned no-namespace character sequences.

21:27 headius: mmm

21:28 if they're backed by interned strings in clojure, it wouldn't be too bad a conversion to do

21:28 but we'd never know going the other way if we should turn something into a clojure symbol or just a string

21:28 brehaut: (namespace :no.namespace.on/keywords) ; TimMc: really?

21:28 gfredericks: the basic use cases for both are the same

21:28 headius: RubySymbol just wraps an interned java.lang.String

21:28 brehaut: ,(namespace :no.namespace.on/keywords)

21:28 clojurebot: "no.namespace.on"

21:29 gfredericks: headius: the conversation is confused by the fact that clojure also has "symbols" which are different

21:29 headius: I wish other language implementers were more interested in interop...we could come up with a common set of interfaces we all implement for some of these "atoms" of the language

21:30 gfredericks: that'd be cool

21:30 are erlang atoms more like clojure symbols or keywords?

21:30 TimMc: brehaut: New in 1.3, right?

21:30 brehaut: nope

21:30 TimMc: hrmph

21:30 gfredericks: TimMc: ##::whats-this

21:31 dammit lazybot

21:31 &::foo-bar

21:31 lazybot: ⇒ :clojure.core/foo-bar

21:31 TimMc: gfredericks: I thought that was just a convenient shorthand for putting the namespace on.

21:31 *current namespace

21:31 gfredericks: TimMc: the point is that the keyword then has a namespace

21:31 TimMc: Right, but it's not as supported as Symbol.

21:31 I just don't remember how.

21:32 amalloy: "not as supported as"?

21:32 brehaut: ,(symbol "imagination!" "foo")

21:32 clojurebot: imagination!/foo

21:32 gfredericks: amalloy: I had no idea what he meant either but assumed it was my fault

21:32 TimMc: Argh, there was something about them that did not have parity re: namespaces.

21:33 brehaut: TimMc: it appears that keywords are actually interned symbols

21:33 (https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Keyword.java)

21:33 TimMc: Gonna have to go log-diving now.

21:35 headius: Anyway, yeah... they can have namespaces. -.-

21:35 gfredericks: which could just map to ruby symbols with slashes, if that happens to come up

21:36 brehaut: headius: the main difference between symbols and keywords in clojure is that symbols are often used to reference something else (ie, locals and vars), and keywords reference themselves

21:37 TimMc: I think the conversation that misled me was in the context of (derive) and the use of ::foo.

21:37 ,*ns*

21:37 clojurebot: #<Namespace sandbox>

21:37 TimMc: &*ns*

21:37 lazybot: ⇒ #<Namespace sandbox17060>

21:38 headius: keywords references themselves...

21:38 what a useful concept

21:38 :)

21:38 brehaut: headius: modulo poor wording on my part ;)

21:38 gfredericks: brehaut: I liked it

21:38 headius: sounds like symbols are probably closer to what we think of ruby symbols as being

21:38 they're generally used for symbolic lookup of variables, methods, etc

21:39 gfredericks: headius: I think clojure keywords are much closer to ruby symbols

21:39 brehaut: headius: keywords in clojure implement the IFn interface and are used as accessor functions on maps and records (just to muddy the waters)

21:39 headius: I guess I don't understand either

21:40 brehaut: ,(:foo {:foo 1})

21:40 clojurebot: 1

21:40 headius: geh

21:40 gfredericks: headius: half the reason symbols exist is the code/data thing. "Variables" in clojure are represented by symbols from the data perspective

21:40 class names are symbols

21:40 function names are symbols

21:40 etc.

21:40 TimMc: headius: Ruby's symbols probably complect named fields and binding.

21:40 :-P

21:41 *named lookup

21:41 Scheme languages also just have symbols, I think.

21:41 gfredericks: (foo bar baz) is a list of three symbols as data, but as code it is calling the foo function with arguments named bar and baz

21:43 brehaut: headius: i should have said 'evaluate to' instead of 'reference' above. http://clojure.org/data_structures#Data%20Structures-Keywords

21:43 headius: in Ruby, it's never really exposed how method names or classes are represented, but they're usually accessed by symbols

21:43 so whether they "are" symbols or not isn't relevant

21:43 clojurebot: symbols are kind of fun

21:43 gfredericks: headius: yeah, I think that's the most clojure-symbol-like use of ruby-symbols

21:43 headius: symbols are little more than a unique identifier

21:44 devn: technomancy: I fixed clojure-refactoring to work with 1.3 FWIW

21:44 gfredericks: headius: unlike ruby-symbols and clojure-keywords, clojure-symbols are not often used with data

21:44 unless the data is code, of course

21:45 headius: mmm yeah...in ruby symbols are often used to reflect named keys in data structures

21:45 [:foo, [:bar, 1]]

21:45 TimMc: headius: Clojure uses keywords for that (idiomatically).

21:45 headius: symbols can also be lifted to functions in a way that sounds like keywords

21:46 :foo.to_proc[1] == 1.foo

21:47 gfredericks: clojure keywords aren't really used that way, but neither are symbols. I think that usage is kind of specific to instance methods, so doesn't apply much in clojure

21:47 symbols name things the same way ruby variables do

21:47 amalloy: gfredericks: disagree, i think it's fairly symmetric

21:48 gfredericks: amalloy: to clj-kws or clj-syms?

21:49 amalloy: keywords

21:49 gfredericks: what usage of keywords corresponds to instance-method-reification?

21:49 there's even a clojure.core function for that isn't there?

21:50 $findfn will not help me here :/

21:50 amalloy: gfredericks: getting keys out of a map. in ruby there are (as i understand it) often objects which have a .foo method returning the value of their internal @foo variable

21:50 * brehaut really needs to get a better grasp on the defn. of 'reification'

21:50 amalloy: gfredericks: memfn?

21:50 gfredericks: amalloy: yep that's it

21:51 amalloy: I can see how you might make an argument out of that, but I don't think the typical use cases overlap much

21:51 every such instance I've seen in ruby is calling real methods, not just accessing data

21:52 I often do (apply concat ...) by .inject(:+), for instance

21:52 brehaut: I hesitated before I used it

22:14 R4p70r: blip.tv always displays totally irrelevant ads on the side when I’m watching Clojure videos.

22:15 How-To Cook a Turkey With Kat...

22:31 TimMc: I get "hot babe photoshoot" stuff.

22:31 gfredericks: TimMc: well at least that's related to clojure

22:31 TimMc: indeed

22:31 amalloy: based on prior internet activity, eh?

22:31 TimMc: amalloy: haha!

22:31 amalloy: cross-site cookies

22:31 TimMc: I doubt it.

22:33 amalloy: No, I'm getting the turkey ads now, in both browsers.

22:34 Raynes: In both browsers?

22:34 How many do you use at any given time?

22:35 gfredericks: I bet he has a meta-browser with tabs for each of his active browsers

22:35 that sounds like some kind of fantasy web developer's tool

22:35 * gfredericks waits for someone to point out that it exists

22:36 brehaut: gfredericks: a fantasy web developers tool removes internet explorer and ffx 3.5 from the world

22:36 TimMc: Raynes: I have about 5 Firefox profiles, 2 of which I use frequently. The main one has Flash disabled.

22:36 Raynes: You're insane.

22:36 gfredericks: brehaut: that already exists

22:36 Raynes: First the password stuff and now this.

22:36 gfredericks: Raynes: what's he do with his passwords?

22:37 brehaut: gfredericks: your world is a better place than mine

22:37 TimMc: Raynes: I do web dev sometimes, and it's important to test sites *without* all my extensions interfering.

22:37 Raynes: TimMc: P.S. I accidentally gave amalloy my password last night while demonstrating new tentacles features.

22:37 TimMc: haha

22:37 Raynes: It was fun.

22:37 I was due for a new one anyway.

22:37 TimMc: gfredericks: I don't hand them out, that's what. :-P

22:37 gfredericks: (str "hunter" (swap! pw-int inc))

22:39 TimMc: Raynes: Actually, a big part of the pain is that my passwords are mostly random ASCII, so it's annoying to retrieve them from Firefox's password manager. I either have to use Firebug to nab one from a login page (which may require logout) or I can do a "search" in the password box and type in the password incrementally until I can copy it.

22:39 A different password manager might help.

22:39 Raynes: I don't do password managers.

22:40 TimMc: amalloy is your password manager amirite

22:40 brehaut: my password manager is M-x butterfly

22:54 amalloy: brehaut: my password is M-x butterfly

23:08 aamar: Huh, M-x butterfly actually does something.

23:08 brehaut: http://xkcd.com/378/

23:16 amalloy: $learn some-key some-value

23:16 lazybot: My memory is more powerful than M-x butterfly. I won't forget it.

23:17 brehaut: amalloy: ??

23:17 lazybot: brehaut: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?

23:17 amalloy: just pointing out some more butterflies

23:17 brehaut: oh right

23:17 dhm: Anyone used an html parser in clojure? Worth using one of the clojure native libs over a java one?

23:18 brehaut: dhm: if you use enlive, its built ontop of the java tagsoup library

23:18 dhm: brehaut: thanks, does it parse html or just do transformations?

23:19 tmciver: I hope M-x butterfly doesn't actually flip any bits . . .

23:19 brehaut: dhm: both

23:19 dhm: brehaut: ah, totally sweet. thanks again.

23:21 devn: is there already some facility for doing a bunch of (derive ::foo ::bar)?

23:22 like passing a map to (build-hierarchy {::foo ::bar ::bar ::baz})

23:26 spoon16: technomancy: I'm getting an error in 1.6.2 on lein deps if I have a repositories entry for centeral

23:26 I'm trying to override with my own proxy server

23:26 something change, or should I file an issue and debug?

23:32 amalloy: devn: uh, i think that facility is doseq

23:32 devn: amalloy: sure, already did that, just curious if there was some contrib library or somesuch I didn't know about

Logging service provided by n01se.net