#clojure log - Nov 10 2011

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0:11 mindbender1: $findfn :stu

0:11 lazybot: []

0:14 mindbender1: $(defrecord Person [fname lname address])

0:15 ,(defrecord Person [fname lname address])

0:15 clojurebot: #<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>

0:19 mindbender1: what's the equivalent of java interface in clojure?

0:29 terom: mindbender1: protocol (IIRC, haven't used them yet)

1:01 brehaut: mindbender1, terom: multimethods, protocols and interfaces all exist in clojure and perform related but different things

2:27 tsdh: Does anyone have an example on how to use `name-with-attributes' from the tools.macro contrib lib?

3:07 I figured it out and added an example to clojuredocs: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_contrib/clojure.contrib.def/name-with-attributes

4:31 Fossi: somebody know why appengine-magic uses jetty directly and not ring.adapter.jetty?

4:31 feels wrong to reimplement ssl connector handling

6:12 Blkt: (a late) good morning everyone

7:24 drguildo: can somebody help me solve problem 28 on 4clojure? i don't want the solution, just some pointers as i'm not making any progress.

7:24 "write a function that flattens a sequence"

7:25 apparently it's "easy"

7:30 i've tried using cons but that requires cons'ing with something which produces a new sequence so i still end up with sub-sequence

7:30 i tried using map but that just produces a sequence

7:38 i guess not so easy that anyone can offer some advice

7:39 fronx: drguildo: mapcat and recursion may be useful to you.

7:39 fliebel: Are any of the Clojure books available in mobi?

7:39 drguildo: I missed the question?

7:40 clgv: drguildo: humm there is an elegant way that uses a certain function - but that would be at least 66% of the solution

7:40 drguildo: all my solutions so far have used recursion and i took a quick look at mapcat but dismissed it quite quickly so i'll look at it some more

7:40 clgv: :-/

7:41 clgv: drguildo: you have to decide whether I should tell you the function name

7:42 drguildo: probably not at this point, thanks. i really want to solve this properly. the only reason i asked now is because i hit a point where i'm making literally no progress.

7:43 i guess part of the problem is my knowledge of the various functions is very poor (i'm a total beginner) and so i've been trying to hammer a nail with only a saw.

7:44 clgv: drguildo: than you should have a look at e.g. http://clojure.github.com/clojure/branch-1.2.x/index.html

7:44 drguildo: i should but i'm desperate to solve this problem before i move on to doing something else as it's bothering me now

7:47 clgv: drguildo: a little hint: if tail-recursion becomes too complicated, you might as well try the lazy way

7:48 drguildo: is this problem really "easy" if it requires the use of tail-recursion and laziness?

7:48 i mean i've had no real problem with previous ones up to this point

7:48 but this one has stumped me

7:50 clgv: I dont remember all of the previous one but their is a light increase in diffculty from fibonacci to palindrom to this flatten

7:51 drguildo: i solved those previous ones without much difficulty

7:52 maybe i'm weird or there is some huge gap in my knowledge

7:52 clgv: why does your recursion approach fail?

7:53 drguildo: because i've been trying to use cons and map and both of them produce sequences

7:53 so i still end up with nested sequences

7:54 i need to somehow make it produce nested cons calls but with a []/'() when it reaches the final element of the top-most sequence but i have no idea how

7:55 i guess a distinct initial call to the function before doing recursive ones... maybe

7:55 i'm at the point where i've tried lots of different things with varying degrees of success (failure?) and now my head is a bit of a mess

7:57 clgv: maybe you should tak a break and continue later on

7:57 drguildo: well i went to sleep and woke up not long ago

8:00 lucian: drguildo: i think i used concat for mine

8:04 drguildo: i need to find a way of dealing with the recursive call that passes in (rest xs) where it's an empty seq. hrmmmmm...

8:05 lucian: i do an if sequential?

8:06 drguildo: i still get a stackoverflowerror

8:07 clgv: drguildo: the stackoverflow is due to not using loop-recur aka tailrecursion

8:08 drguildo: i don't see how because there would have to be a lot of nested sequences for that to happen and right now i'm just testing on an already flat one

8:08 clgv: oh, then your recursion stop criterion is wrong

8:08 drguildo: exactly

8:09 (rest xs) is, at the end of a list, going to be a []

8:09 so it'll just go into an infinite loop

8:09 so i need to figure out how to avoid that

8:10 this code seems far too verbose but i guess something that just works is a good start

8:11 lucian: my solution is also pretty verbose

8:12 clgv: SO NOW YOU GOT ME TO OPTIMIZE MY GOLFSCORE ON THAT PROBLEM ;)

8:12 ups. damn key^^

8:12 drguildo: how much did you reduce it by?

8:12 clgv: 19

8:12 to 43

8:12 drguildo: excellent

8:13 clgv: could be a few more if there was a shortcut for recursive usage in a #() statement

8:16 lucian: how can you see this "golfscore"? and what is it?

8:16 clgv: lucian: it's the number of characters you used and you have to enable it in the options

8:16 lucian: ah, ok

8:16 drguildo: is there a way to do a conditional bind? like if (rest xs) is empty then bind a variable to [], otherwise bind it to the result

8:16 lucian: so pointless, and wisely hidden by default :)

8:17 drguildo: if-let might do what you want

8:17 acutally, it doesn't bind conditionally, it just binds the condition

8:17 clgv: lucian: ah well it's interesting to see how short your solution is in comparison

8:18 lucian: clgv: what's your handle on 4clj? so i can follow you

8:18 clgv: lucian: I didnt do much there. only 37 of the easier problems so far ;)

8:18 lucian: i haven't done much either, 71

8:19 clgv: its the same as here

8:19 lucian: clgv: really? search must be broken or something

8:20 yeah, yours is way shorter :)

8:21 clgv: but not minimal it seems form the chart - I wonder whats the last trick

8:21 lucian: mine's from the time i was reading "the little schemer"

8:30 drguildo: urgh

8:30 still no further forward

8:31 i have two options: unflattened list or stack overflow

8:32 am i right in thinking it's impossible to get an unflattened list while using cons?

8:32 erm

8:32 am i right in thinking it's impossible to get an flattened list while using cons?

8:32 lucian: drguildo: try conj

8:32 i use concat if it's a sequence and conj if it's not

8:33 drguildo: because of the cons problem?

8:35 lucian: drguildo: sure. and it's more general

8:47 kzar: Is there a Clojure / Java library that splits up a URL into it's component parts? I was hoping to get a map back ideally

8:48 drguildo: is it just me or are clojure error messages practically useless?

8:51 clgv: can you tell me the name of that function?

8:52 tsdh: kzar: Doesn't the standard Java URL class have getters for the individual components?

8:53 clgv: drguildo: you can do it via tree-seq. that was my first one. but now I changed it to reduce size and its using basic lazy primitives only

8:53 kzar: tsdh: Oh yea, you're right

8:53 ,(.getHost (java.net.URL. "http://google.com"))

8:53 clojurebot: "google.com"

8:53 drguildo: clgv: which ones?

8:54 clgv: drguildo: lazy-seq coll? mapcat

8:54 fliebel: drguildo: What are you trying to do? I've seen you ask seq related question all morning :)

8:54 clgv: though coll? works on the examples but maybe not in general for all flatten cases

8:54 drguildo: write a function that flattens a sequence

8:55 fliebel: drguildo: 4clojure? Because there is just a flatten function in core.

8:55 drguildo: yeah

8:55 babilen: kzar: (bean (URL. "http://www.clojure.org"))

8:58 fliebel: drguildo: If you want to do fancy, you could as well use http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.zip-api.html#clojure.zip/next

9:03 drguildo: i want to do "something i can actually get to work" ;-)

9:09 clgv: drguildo: the read about tree-seq and try that approach

9:10 TimMc: drguildo: Which problem?

9:11 fliebel: TimMc: flatten a seq

9:11 drguildo: 28

9:14 TimMc: Oh, huh -- chouser's solution is mine, but inside out.

9:15 I think it is a little better in efficiency that way, maybe.

9:19 cemerick: kzar: that's what the url fn in com.ashafa.clutch.utils does, actually :-)

9:19 obviously built for clutch's purposes, but it might help you

9:20 kzar: cemerick: I switched back to 0.2.5 because I couldn't get the watch for changes feature working with 0.3.0. Again I posted on the group but my reply didn't show up

9:20 TimMc: drguildo: So you tried a recursive solution, but it didn't work?

9:20 kzar: cemerick: Right I ended up writing my own, using clj-url.core/parse and then just renaming :path to :name pretty much (and stripping the "/" )

9:21 cemerick: kzar: google caught your emails as spam :-( I whitelisted you.

9:21 kzar: cemerick: Hey that's weird, I use google apps for my email too! cheers

9:22 cemerick: yeah, groups' spam detection isn't so great

9:22 kzar: I'll have to reply later, but maybe you could send (another) email with your watch-changes call(s), or a gist to the same?

9:24 kzar: cemerick: Sure, that's totally fine. I reduced it down to simply adding a hook like (clutch/watch-changes db :test println :include_docs true) and I still found it to not work, then when I switched back it was working again. Might be me but I suspect the feature's buggered in the new version

9:25 drguildo: TimMc: yeah

9:26 cemerick: kzar: the tests pass, but, well, stranger things have happened than tests passing while a bug is floating about

9:26 I'll definitely look at it some time this week

9:26 kzar: cemerick: Hey I meant to ask, what's your talk going to be about? Or is it secret?

9:26 abedra: cemerick: I believe somebody said something about tests passing and bugs

9:26 cemerick: can't quite place it though ;)

9:26 kzar: abedra: That _does_ ring a bell, heh

9:27 cemerick: abedra: I heard something like that somewhere.

9:27 ;-)

9:27 kzar: http://clojure-conj.org/schedule#emerick

9:27 * cemerick is going to get torn apart in Q&A ;-)

9:28 technomancy: so is clojure.test.generative quickcheck ported to clojure?

9:28 abedra: cemerick: that's a good thing

9:28 technomancy: without type inference? =)

9:28 abedra: technomancy: not quite

9:28 technomancy: it doesn't have narrowing

9:28 * ibdknox prepares his evil questions for cemerick.

9:28 redinger: cemerick: you have time for Q&A?

9:28 kephale: cemerick: i do a fair amount of machine learning so your talk looks pretty cool. any chance you'll post your slide somewhere?

9:28 abedra: technomancy: but it is done in the spirit of qcheck

9:29 TimMc: drguildo: Can you gist your (broken) solution?

9:29 cemerick: ibdknox: all bark, no bite ;-)

9:29 * technomancy can't wait for a heckle clone

9:29 technomancy: http://ruby.sadi.st/Heckle.html

9:29 ibdknox: cemerick: probably. :D

9:29 abedra: technomancy: that would be interesting

9:29 technomancy: and actually really easy

9:29 cemerick: redinger: fair point. we'll see

9:29 kephale: cemerick: given that i'm still in MA instead of conj

9:30 technomancy: abedra: easier with CinC though

9:30 cemerick: kephale: slides, code, etc.

9:30 abedra: technomancy: yes

9:30 technomancy: well, maybe not; hmm

9:30 cemerick: kephale: where in MA?

9:30 kephale: yay

9:30 abedra: technomancy: didn't Ryan convert ruby into sexps to make Heckle?

9:30 technomancy: abedra: pretty much

9:30 abedra: technomancy: well we are already there :)

9:30 kephale: cemerick: waltham at the moment, but often in amherst hanging out with Lee

9:31 kzar: technomancy: Oh, I meant to say; I couldn't get that buildpack working it said it wasn't found. I ended up doing this: `heroku config:add LEIN_NO_DEV=1` which just set the environment variable manually and that worked fine

9:31 cemerick: kephale: right, right; couldn't place your handle at first :-)

9:31 abedra: technomancy: the cool thing would be to have a repl that replaced the reader with the reader + a heckler

9:31 * cemerick has bad memories of waltham

9:31 kephale: cemerick: Brandeis to be precise. good luck on your talk though

9:32 cemerick: Thanks!

9:33 technomancy: kzar: ah, bummer. I'll see if I can get it working after the conj

9:33 abedra: yeah, going upstream of the compiler would sidestep the cinc issue

9:34 abedra: technomancy: yeah, the reader is the place for now where this would have to happen

9:37 lnostdal_: is it possible to extend deref and @ so it can work with other non built-in things?

9:37 ibdknox: lnostdal_: yes

9:38 TimMc: IDeref, right?

9:38 ibdknox: yep

9:38 lnostdal_: yeah, i need to do some java interop?

9:38 ibdknox: no

9:38 you can just do deftype

9:39 and implement IDeref

9:39 TimMc: that is sort of interop

9:39 lnostdal_: ok, cool

9:39 ibdknox: fair enough

9:39 it doesn't really *look* like interop :)

9:39 lnostdal_: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2944108/implementing-custom-data-structures-using-clojure-protocols

9:39 mjwhitt: are clojure conj slides online anywhere?

9:40 abedra: lnostdal: Make sure to look at how deref works in the current set around blocking when being printed

9:40 mjwhitt: they will be

9:40 and the videos should be as well

9:41 redinger: mjwhitt: They'll be here when we get them: https://github.com/relevance/clojure-conj/tree/master/2011-slides

9:41 ibdknox: lnostdal_: so you'd do that with clojure.lang.IDeref

9:41 mjwhitt: thanks

9:41 redinger: We'll announce them and the videos later

9:43 lnostdal_: ibdknox, awesome; thank you

9:56 kzar: technomancy: Should futures work OK on Heroku?

9:56 technomancy: absolutely

9:56 you can do "heroku run lein repl" to experiment

9:57 kzar: oh, good point I'll use that

9:57 thanks

10:00 melipone: I have a question about Java interop. I'm using lein repl and I am putting a jar file into the lib directory so it's in my classpath. I do (import '(net htmlparser jericho)) to access the jar file but I get a class not found exception. I can access the jar fine through a Java program that I import, so WTF?

10:01 technomancy: (import 'net.htmlparser.Jericho) maybe?

10:01 drguildo: TimMc: i don't even have a solution right now because i've had about 2^2809423 varies attempts none of which have failed so i just deleted it all with the aim of starting over

10:01 srid: do we have an IRC channel specific to clojure/conj?

10:01 danlarkin: wow @fakerichhickey is really tweeting up a storm

10:02 TimMc: srid: Like, a backchannel?

10:02 drguildo: https://gist.github.com/1355036

10:02 that's the last one i tried

10:03 i don't actually even understand why it doesn't work heh

10:03 TimMc: drguildo: You'll probably have better luck using map.

10:03 drguildo: i've tried using map

10:03 redinger: srid: I debated that, I am in #clojure/conj, but didn't think everybody in here would mind if we just hung out here :)

10:03 drguildo: same problem: i get back the exact same sequence

10:03 well, apart from the outer one being a list

10:04 TimMc: drguildo: ##(seq [1 2 3])

10:04 lazybot: ⇒ (1 2 3)

10:04 TimMc: ,(seq? [1 2 3]) rather

10:04 drguildo: my problem is i can't use map or cons/conj without getting back another list

10:04 clojurebot: false

10:05 drguildo: so any recursive call to them is going to result in another list leading to nested lists

10:05 by lists i mean sequences but whatever

10:05 lucian: heroku have nice graphics

10:05 TimMc: drguildo: so you want to concatenate them

10:06 drguildo: so wait

10:06 what do i use instead of seq? i thought vectors were sequences

10:06 gtrak: /join #clojure/conj

10:06 TimMc: drguildo: If you have '[[1 2 3] [a b c]] how do you turn that into '[1 2 3 a b c]?

10:06 drguildo: coll?

10:06 drguildo: TimMc: if i could answer that i'd be able to solve this problem

10:06 TimMc: vectors, lists, maps, sets, and sequences are all colls

10:06 and are all seqable

10:07 clgv: drguildo: I suggest structuring your code so that if you know your argument is a collection than you apply your function on every element and concatenate the result

10:07 redinger: Alright, let's take the clojure/conj talk over to #clojure/conj

10:07 drguildo: i think i solved it

10:07 https://gist.github.com/1355050

10:07 clgv: coll? works on the 3 examples but not necessarily on all flatten use cases

10:07 drguildo: TimMc: why does seq? return false on a vector?

10:08 clgv: drguildo: since it doesnt implement ISequential ##(doc seq?)

10:08 lazybot: ⇒ "([x]); Return true if x implements ISeq"

10:08 TimMc: drguildo: Because a vector is a collection, but not a sequence. (seq some-vector) is a sequence.

10:08 clgv: Iseq rather

10:08 drguildo: hrmm, ok

10:08 i thought they were all sequences by default

10:08 TimMc: It is seq-able -- you can get a seq of it -- but it itself is just a collection.

10:08 drguildo: It's the other way around -- sequences are themselves collections.

10:09 but it is very easy to work with any collection as a sequence.

10:09 drguildo: i think i need to sit down and read an actual book sequentially (pun intended) because i get the impression there are basic things i should know that i don't

10:09 raek: drguildo: the functions in clojure that expect a sequence as an argument will call (seq ...) on the argument first before using it

10:09 TimMc: seq vs. coll is a bit complicated.

10:09 abedra: ,(= '(1 2 3) [1 2 3] #{1 2 3})

10:09 clojurebot: false

10:10 drguildo: what should i do to understand it? is there something i should read? is it important to know?

10:10 TimMc: ,(= '(1 2 3) [1 2 3])

10:10 clojurebot: true

10:10 raek: IMHO, it would have been more intuitive (but more verbose) if the core function would not have called 'seq' automatically

10:10 abedra: TimMc: yes, sorry, I got carried away

10:11 TimMc: ,(vec (seq #{1 2 3}))

10:11 clojurebot: [1 2 3]

10:11 TimMc: ,(vec (seq #{3 2 1}))

10:11 clojurebot: [1 2 3]

10:11 pjstadig: ,(= '(1 2 3) [1 2 3] (seq #{1 2 3}))

10:11 clojurebot: true

10:11 raek: drguildo: most of the time, you just use sequences and use vectors as sequence literals

10:11 TimMc: ,(ancestors (class #{2 1 3}))

10:12 drguildo: yeah but right now trying to use a vector as a sequence literal bit me in the ass so i need to have a more precise understanding than that

10:12 TimMc: oh, clojurebot

10:12 &(ancestors (class #{2 1 3}))

10:12 lazybot: ⇒ #{java.util.Set clojure.lang.IMeta clojure.lang.IObj clojure.lang.IFn java.util.concurrent.Callable clojure.lang.IEditableCollection java.lang.Runnable clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection clojure.lang.Seqable java.lang.Object java.lang.Iterable java.util.Collection ... https://gist.github.com/1355062

10:12 drguildo: i wasted hours because i was using seq? on a vector

10:12 raek: drguildo: how did it bite you?

10:12 drguildo: and it was returning false

10:12 read the last 2 gits i pasted

10:12 raek: also, to remove one level of nesting of sequences, use (apply concat ...)

10:13 drguildo: the first fails and the second works

10:13 raek: ,(apply concat [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]])

10:13 TimMc: clojurebot is down

10:13 suddenly

10:13 raek: &(apply concat [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]])

10:13 lazybot: ⇒ (1 2 3 4 5 6)

10:13 abedra: TimMc: you killed it

10:13 TimMc: maybe pj did

10:13 he was the last to poke it

10:14 abedra: true

10:14 TimMc: drguildo: ##(if (seq [1 2 3]) "It's seqable" "It's not seqable")

10:14 lazybot: ⇒ "It's seqable"

10:14 pjstadig: who me?

10:14 nah

10:14 clojurebot: #{clojure.lang.IPersistentSet clojure.lang.AFn java.util.concurrent.Callable clojure.lang.IObj clojure.lang.IMeta ...}

10:14 (1 2 3 4 5 ...)

10:14 drguildo: right, but it isn't a seq

10:14 TimMc: haha

10:14 Oh, clojurebot

10:15 ,(seqable? [1 2 3])

10:15 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: seqable? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>

10:15 TimMc: &(seqable [1 2 3])

10:15 lazybot: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: seqable in this context

10:15 TimMc: &(seqable? [1 2 3])

10:15 lazybot: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: seqable? in this context

10:15 TimMc: What am I missing?

10:15 pjstadig: seqable? doesn't exist?

10:15 raek: seqable? is in contrib (and does not always work)

10:15 TimMc: Oh! It's a contrib thing?

10:16 ibdknox: yes

10:16 drguildo: sequential?

10:16 hiredman: no

10:16 TimMc: Not quite.

10:16 abedra: &(apropos 'seq)

10:16 lazybot: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: apropos in this context

10:16 TimMc: apropos is a repl util

10:16 raek: the clojure collections are seqable, so you can use 'coll?'

10:16 abedra: thought it might be available here

10:16 ibdknox: &(require 'clojure.repl)

10:16 lazybot: ⇒ nil

10:16 TimMc: ,(coll? "foo")

10:16 clojurebot: false

10:16 ibdknox: &(apropos 'seq)

10:16 lazybot: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: apropos in this context

10:17 ibdknox: &(clojure.repl/apropos 'seq)

10:17 lazybot: ⇒ (seq-test if-seq-error seqable? chunked-seq? sequential? doseq sequence rseq seq? xml-seq seque rsubseq seq re-seq resultset-seq file-seq tree-seq enumeration-seq iterator-seq lazy-seq line-seq subseq seq-zip parsed-seq parsed-smile-seq)

10:17 TimMc: drguildo: Basically, colls and seqs and so forth are best represented with a Venn diagram that no one was drawn yet.

10:17 *has

10:17 drguildo: so a string is sequable even though it isn't a coll?

10:17 raek: yes

10:17 TimMc: yeah, it's a special case of sorts

10:17 raek: doesn't support conj, for instance

10:17 TimMc: &(seq "hello")

10:17 lazybot: ⇒ (\h \e \l \l \o)

10:18 pjstadig: which means you can't...

10:18 drguildo: so seqs are the union of collections and some other stuff?

10:18 abedra: and other behavior you might not expect

10:18 &(reverse "hello")

10:18 lazybot: ⇒ (\o \l \l \e \h)

10:19 melipone: (import 'net.htmlparser.jericho) does not work either ...

10:19 raek: anyway, flatten is a bit weird function to have since the line between collection and "atom" is a bit fuzzy in clojure

10:19 (I have never used it)

10:19 pjstadig: ,(into "hello " (seq "world"))

10:19 clojurebot: #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection>

10:19 pjstadig: ^ a sad fact

10:20 tsdh: raek: Why is it fuzzy? No collection is an atom, isn't it?

10:20 raek: melipone: the part after the last dot must be a class (you cannot import every class in a package)

10:20 technomancy: pjstadig: I wonder if that's just waiting for more seq stuff to get moved to protocols

10:20 TimMc: drguildo: Point of clarification: "atom" is an overloaded word here.

10:20 abedra: oh wow, did both bots die?

10:20 pjstadig: technomancy: maybe

10:20 TimMc: there are only so many good names

10:20 &(+ 1 1)

10:20 lazybot: ⇒ 2

10:21 TimMc: &(println "still alive")

10:21 lazybot: ⇒ still alive nil

10:21 clgv: ,(println "still alive")

10:21 clojurebot: still alive

10:21 hiredman: /win 22

10:22 whoops

10:23 raek: melipone: (import 'net.htmlparser.jericho.Attribute) or (import '(net.htmlparser.jericho Attribute Config))

10:24 but use (:import net.htmlparser.jericho.Attribute) or (:import (net.htmlparser.jericho Attribute Config)) in a 'ns' form

10:28 TimMc: drguildo: Makin' a spreadsheet of this stuff.

10:30 fliebel: Huh... How can I access the TO field? http://download.oracle.com/javaee/5/api/javax/mail/Message.RecipientType.html

10:31 d'oh javax.mail.Message$RecipientType/TO

10:32 ibdknox: in case anyone finds this useful: https://github.com/ibdknox/watchtower

10:32 duck1123: fliebel: did you look at the postal library?

10:32 fliebel: duck1123: Not yet. I first wont to familiarize myself with the Java way.

10:32 drguildo: TimMc: ok, thanks

10:34 duck1123: fliebel: I just started using it myself yesterday, but so far, it seems pretty easy. I had to do crazy things like attach a file to the email, and postal made that way easier than using the java lib directly

10:34 fliebel: duck1123: Huh, I remember someone showing me some project wrapping javamail, but I seem to remember it was way less mature

10:36 duck1123: fliebel: https://github.com/drewr/postal

10:36 fliebel: duck1123: yeayea, did you show that to me before? Or was that someone else with a different library?

10:37 duck1123: fliebel: I don't think it was me. I just found it yesterday

10:38 alexbaranosky: I've gotten by with: (:import [org.apache.commons.mail SimpleEmail])

10:38 fliebel: duck1123: It was the same probable, or at least it also does not include receiving mail.

10:39 drewr: fliebel: yes, postal is currently send-only

10:40 or just Message contruction if you want to take care of sending yourself

10:41 fliebel: drewr: So it can map to and from maps to javax.mail.Message?

10:43 drewr: fliebel: yes

10:43 or at least it should!

10:44 open a ticket if there's a deficiency and I'll fix quickly

10:44 fliebel: drewr: So I "only" need to find a nice api for mailboxes and such.

10:45 drewr: fliebel: for imap et al?

10:46 fliebel: drewr: yea

10:48 drewr: I'll add those eventually

10:48 the main thing I constantly needed was a one-liner for sending out a message (for monitoring, etc.)

10:54 TimMc: $findarg (map % [true 5 "" nil false]) [true true true false false]

10:54 lazybot: []

10:55 bhenry: seq

10:56 (boolean (seq %))

10:56 oh that's wrong too

10:56 ,(boolean nil)

10:56 clojurebot: false

10:56 bhenry: just boolean i guess.

10:57 duck1123: ,(boolean 5)

10:57 clojurebot: true

10:57 TimMc: &(= (map boolean [true 5 "" nil false]) [true true true false false])

10:57 lazybot: ⇒ true

10:58 TimMc: lazybot, you fail

10:58 duck1123: ,(map identity [true 5 "" nil false])

10:58 clojurebot: (true 5 "" nil false)

10:58 meteorfox: , (print "Hello")

10:58 clojurebot: Hello

10:59 meteorfox: hi, can anyone explain the bots? what's the difference between the clojurebot and the lazybot?

10:59 pyr: hi

10:59 is there a way for leiningen to use repos with credentials ?

10:59 i.e if a maven repo is protected by a htaccess

11:00 duck1123: pyr: have you tried setting up whatever you have to do in ~/.m2/settings.xml for the same thing in maven?

11:01 pyr: duck1123: yep, this works

11:01 duck1123: i just want to know if there's a way to keep the config in project.clj

11:01 duck1123: it doesn't seem to accept the http://user@password:... scheme

11:02 i meant http://user:password@host/path

11:03 duck1123: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/1.x/sample.project.clj#L136

11:03 :username and :password flags

11:04 pyr: thank!

11:04 thanks, rather :)

11:07 TimMc: $findfn "<" "&lt;"

11:07 lazybot: []

11:07 TimMc: ah well

11:10 pjstadig: &(System/exit 0)

11:10 lazybot: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission exitVM.0)

11:10 ibdknox: lol

11:10 :p

11:16 TimMc: technomancy: Hey, isn't "[1.3.0,1.4.0)" not supposed to pick up 1.4?

11:17 technomancy: TimMc: not sure exactly. it may allow everything up to but not including the release, and the snapshots are considered prior to the release.

11:18 TimMc: I didn't understand that/ :-(

11:18 technomancy: (< 1.3.0 1.4.0-SNAPSHOT 1.4.0) ; basically

11:19 TimMc: ew ew ew

11:19 duck1123: [1.3.0, 1.3.∞-1]

11:19 technomancy: 1.4.0 is not included in that range, but the snapshot is "under" the release.

11:19 TimMc: Any way to say "1.3.*" then?

11:19 technomancy: not sure off the top of my head

11:20 TimMc: I see this as one of the things holding back large-project robustness (not just in Clojure.)

11:20 technomancy: well generally applications should never use version ranges, just libraries

11:21 TimMc: That's what I mean.

11:21 When libraries depend on libraries...

11:22 duck1123: TimMc: but you can just lock down the transitive dependencies in your project, that way you're sure

11:23 technomancy: more details here: http://docs.codehaus.org/display/MAVEN/Dependency+Mediation+and+Conflict+Resolution#DependencyMediationandConflictResolution-DependencyVersionRanges

11:28 TimMc: OK, so [1.3.0,1.3.999] for now.

11:36 seancorfield: amalloy: Raynes comment about juxt made me check the WS codebase... 13 occurrences of juxt in ~3kloc :)

11:44 pjstadig: &(deref (future))

11:44 lazybot: java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! future-call is bad!

11:51 lnostdal_: couldn't ref-set, reset! and others be replaced by a generic setter facility now? .. with all the new stuff added to clj recently

11:53 vijaykiran: Hi .. I'm experimenting with enlive templating with compojure webapp - when I change the html file - the application doesn't reload it unless I stop and start it again ..

11:53 is there anyway I can make it dynamically loaded whenver there's file change?

11:54 lnostdal_: vijaykiran, re-load the resourc (xml-resource, html-resource) on every call to your templating code

11:54 resource*

11:55 at least that's what i do; on production i have (let [resource ...] (defn my-handler [] ...)) while developing i have (defn my-handler [] (let [resource ...] ...))

11:55 raek: vijaykiran: if you have a repl you can reload the namespace that contains the deftemplate with (require ... :reload)

11:56 there is middleware for reloading .clj files automatically, but that wouldn't trigger if you change a .html file

11:57 seancorfield: i had to solve that problem in fw/1 so i have a dev mode (that reloads the namespaces and resets the html node cache on every request) and a url param (configurable) that lets you force a reload

12:09 frem: I'm lazy. Is there a version of Clojure Box updated for 1.3?

12:29 rplevy: Raynes: OAKFOREST / CJ4MMF

12:36 Raynes: rplevy: Gotcha. Thanks.

12:36 wawa: ii

12:41 scottj: cemerick: when are you releasing your bayes lib? during/after your talk?

12:42 cemerick: scottj: sometime after

12:42 scottj: cemerick: best estimate?

12:42 "when it's ready" :)

12:42 cemerick: on review, someone pointed out a relatively significant flaw in my treatment of continuous variables, so I want to fix that before letting people trip up on it

12:42 Next week, I'm hoping.

12:42 scottj: cool

12:42 * cemerick shoulda taken more math classes ;-)

12:43 cemerick: gd integrals

12:43 nuclearsandwich: cemerick: I am taking those math classes. Even we trip up on stuff like that all the time. ;)

12:44 ibdknox: ewwww math.

12:44 scottj: people at conj: are they recording this year? (have they announced it/do you see a camera?)

12:44 ibdknox: yes

12:44 cemerick: yeah, it's all being recorded

12:44 scottj: cool

12:44 nuclearsandwich: scottj: yeah they have I think confreaks doing it. High quality in my past experiences

13:28 TimMc: $findfn name [:a :b] {:a "a" :b "b"}

13:28 lazybot: []

13:29 Bronsa: ,(into {} (map (juxt identity str) [:a :b]))

13:29 clojurebot: {:a ":a", :b ":b"}

13:32 mabes: According to the docs on extend (clojure 1.2) I should be able to provide interfaces (not just protocols), however this fails: (extend Foo clojure.lang.IFn {:invoke (fn [foo n] (if (= n 0) (.a foo) (.b foo)))})

13:32 it says "interface clojure.lang.IFn is not a protocol"

13:33 the same happens with the extend-type macro since it just expands to use extend

13:33 however, if I inline the interface functions in the deftype it does work

13:33 any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong?

13:44 semperos: I'm new to logic programming, and obviously to core.logic; I'm converting some "regular" functions into ones that return goals

13:44 take this code for example: https://gist.github.com/1354083

13:45 I have a function that relies on some Java interop under the hood and returns a boolean

13:45 but I've not seen any example of unifying a function's return value with `true`, as I've done in that gist

13:45 is this the "right" way in this situation?

13:48 fliebel: semperos: iirc, you need to use project to mix up regular and goal functions.

13:49 Imagine what would happen is foo was unbound.

13:50 So project walks the var, and binds the ground value, so you can use it in normal functions.

13:50 semperos: ok

13:52 fliebel: thanks, I'll try to get my head around project more, I had seen it used in a simple arithmetic example

13:57 callen: do you guys think the community needs a blog that documents common foibles and confusions that noobies run into when learning Clojure?

13:57 klauern: YES!

13:57 ibdknox: the community needs a starting point in general

13:58 klauern: I'm just learning Clojure now and I have had lots and lots of problems that amounted to simple things like (quote) and REPL behavior

13:59 semperos: one of the challenges in documenting such a starting point is the diversity of "skills" required to get started

13:59 klauern: I've even got this link bookmarked because I keep tripping up with it: http://blog.8thlight.com/colin-jones/2010/12/05/clojure-libs-and-namespaces-require-use-import-and-ns.html

13:59 semperos: JVM experience, Lisp development, functional programming...

14:00 ibdknox: semperos: yeah, I think part of what would be helpful is starting from no framepoint

14:00 semperos: because then you're forced to explain yourself in plain english in a way that could be universally understood

14:00 semperos: ibdknox: possibly, but then you're reading 100+ pages of material before you're really started :)

14:01 ibdknox: semperos: not if it's written right ;)

14:01 semperos: agreed

14:01 ibdknox: I've been thinking about taking that up as a project soon

14:01 cemerick: ibdknox: how many projects do you need? ;-)

14:02 ibdknox: cemerick: 27 at least ;)

14:02 cemerick: sounds about right

14:02 as if I should talk :-P

14:02 semperos: another possible approach is what Rich did with the videos, in terms of detailed introductions for folks coming from Java, Lisp, etc. backgrounds

14:02 ibdknox: absolutely, I think both are extremely useful

14:03 and necessary!

14:03 technomancy: there's this site, but it kinda sputtered out: http://learn-clojure.com/

14:03 semperos: I know for myself that I "got" Clojure in multiple phases, spending large swaths of time focusing on those individual skills until one day a critical "grok mass" was reached

14:04 ibdknox: technomancy: yeah, it needs work... lots of work.

14:08 callen: sooooo

14:08 is it something I should do?

14:08 I have a clojure project I am working on already

14:08 it would simply be a matter of documenting as I go.

14:09 I've been writing Clojure for 1-1.5 years but still feel stoopid. :|

14:09 technomancy: maybe you could contact the site's maintainer and see if he wants help

14:09 callen: heh, I've gone down that route before

14:09 trying to pick up on poorly maintained stuff

14:10 it turns into a shit-show.

14:10 unless they're prepared to hand over the site and the domain, I'm not going to do that.

14:10 technomancy: maybe. there are a lot of independent efforts for things like this and not much coordination.

14:10 callen: that's not in the slightest my fault that people are too lazy to work with me.

14:10 ibdknox: hm

14:10 callen: HN Office Hours is derelict because I couldn't get the guys I worked with to stop sitting on it and let me code.

14:10 technomancy: well there's always the wiki

14:11 callen: I worked with the original weekend hackathon crew to get it deployed.

14:11 technomancy: no bottlenecks there

14:11 callen: I'm sharing anecdote

14:11 puredanger: klauern: I have argued for a while now that the content on Colin's blog you reference should be on one of the prominent pages on clojure.org instead of what is currently on http://clojure.org/libs but I never got a blessing to do it. I catalogued a bunch of similar ideas here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/clojure.org+TODO+list

14:11 callen: not authoritative wiki content.

14:11 technomancy: puredanger: that absolutely should happen

14:12 puredanger: technomancy: well I have edit rights on the wiki. :) But I am typically delicate in changes on those pages unless blessed by Stu or Rich.

14:12 callen: that's the thing

14:13 I'm not in the mood to debate, or argue, or try to make an encyclopedia of Clojure

14:13 I just want to share anecdotes that will be relevant to noobies.

14:13 "here's why my classpath was fucked"

14:13 "here's what I misunderstood about namespaces"

14:13 technomancy: puredanger: I can see if I can corner one of them

14:13 ibdknox: that's a very different kind of content

14:13 callen: that's not wiki content.

14:13 ibdknox: and a very good kind of content

14:13 callen: that's my point.

14:13 it's not wiki relevant at all

14:13 ibdknox: go for it

14:14 puredanger: clojure-docs is a good place for stuff like that example stuff but it is function-focused

14:14 callen: that's not a good place for what I'm talking about.

14:14 puredanger: yeah

14:14 callen: this is why I just do what's in my head normally.

14:14 okay, so we're back to where I started

14:14 making a blog.

14:14 got it.

14:14 puredanger: things like "contains? doesn't do what you think it does. try some."

14:14 ibdknox: puredanger: cleaning up clojure.org would definitely make a huge difference. Just making it less like a PhD candidate's website is a good start.

14:15 technomancy: I don't necessarily think a "Pitfalls" page would be out of place on the wiki

14:15 ibdknox: technomancy: that's fair

14:15 puredanger: ibdknox: my best thoughts after collecting and distilling ideas on the web site a year ago are on that referenced to do list.

14:16 callen: technomancy: I don't want my content to be subject to the whims of the community.

14:16 technomancy: I'm just making a blog.

14:16 puredanger: ibdknox: they are mostly not radical changes though, just cleaning and improving organization. I'm not a web site designer

14:16 klauern: Well, one thing that still trips me up is when walking through a tutorial and they have me type (ns foo) or something equivalent, I then try using (doc) (find-doc) or whatnot and realize that it doesn't work anymore

14:16 This is in the REPL

14:16 ibdknox: puredanger: yeah, I would want to do something a little more radical :)

14:17 puredanger: ibdknox: if someone wanted to take over and do whatever to learn-clojure, I'm sure Kyle would be happy to let people hack on it

14:17 klauern: Part of the problem I have is that I don't feel like when I'm in the REPL as a n00b I know enough about anything to be effective or useful. There's not (help) command, for instance, or (help ns) (help import), etc., that would be different from (doc ns)

14:17 semperos: what would folks consider to be the "most successful" non-clojure.org Clojure reference website? (informal poll)

14:17 ibdknox: puredanger: interesting...

14:17 mdeboard: klauern: What language are you coming from?

14:17 klauern: Java primarily

14:17 callen: semperos: github.com

14:17 klauern: Ruby on the side

14:17 TimMc: semperos: clojuredocs.org

14:18 puredanger: klauern: there is an api to get examples from clojuredocs at the repl

14:18 TimMc: It's the only one I know of.

14:18 puredanger: i find the core docs to be both wonderfully (and painfully) concise - clojuredocs plugs a hole there in providing examples

14:18 ibdknox: yeah, I have a sample size of one :/

14:18 examples are the key to language acqusition

14:18 klauern: puredanger: what is that? I usually flit between clojuredocs and my REPL to figure things out

14:19 technomancy: the docstrings that just say "please see clojure.org" are always fun to hit when you're on a plane

14:19 TimMc: haha

14:19 ibdknox: :(

14:19 puredanger: technomancy: :) special forms ...

14:19 TimMc: good times with bad docs

14:19 semperos: my thought was clojuredocs.org as well, and even though an API/examples reference site, distilling what makes that so successful would be a first-step in standing up a proper and comprehensive "learning Clojure" site, from a usability and reliability-of-information standpoint, imho

14:20 puredanger: if anyone out there uses DuckDuckGo as their search engine (try it!) you can do "!clojure" in searches to search clojuredocs

14:20 lambdanaut: (reduce * (range 1 101) ) gives me an int overflow. What do?

14:20 TimMc: (inc DuckDuckGo)

14:20 puredanger: klauern: the lib to access clojuredocs from the repl is at https://github.com/dakrone/cd-client

14:21 semperos: lambdanaut: (reduce *' (range 1 101))

14:21 is one way

14:21 TimMc: Is this a 1.2 vs. 1.3 thing?

14:21 klauern: puredanger: excellent!

14:21 semperos: yep

14:21 TimMc: ,(doc *')

14:21 ibdknox: ,(doc *')

14:21 semperos: lambdanaut: the return value of that is a clojure.lang.BigInt

14:21 lambdanaut: Oh thanks! What does that apostraphe do?

14:21 ibdknox: lol

14:21 clojurebot: "([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns the product of nums. (*) returns 1. Supports arbitrary precision. See also: *"

14:21 "([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns the product of nums. (*) returns 1. Supports arbitrary precision. See also: *"

14:21 TimMc: lambdanaut: It's part of the name.

14:22 semperos: lambdanaut: gives you 1.2-style auto-promoting arithmetic

14:22 TimMc: ,(name '*')

14:22 clojurebot: "*'"

14:22 lambdanaut: Oh ok

14:22 TimMc: &(type (+' 1 2))

14:22 lazybot: ⇒ java.lang.Long

14:23 TimMc: &(+ Integer/MAX_VALUE 1)

14:23 lazybot: ⇒ 2147483648

14:23 TimMc: &(+ Long/MAX_VALUE 1)

14:23 lazybot: java.lang.ArithmeticException: integer overflow

14:23 TimMc: &(+' Long/MAX_VALUE 1)

14:23 lazybot: ⇒ 9223372036854775808N

14:25 puredanger: re the previous discussion on better pages on clojure.org... IF you have a concrete page you would like to improve, then please write alternative text and file a jira. /core can bless and I'd be happy to do the work to change the page but I am lacking in time to do the writing itself.

14:27 and if someone wants to take the initiative to hack on learn-clojure, I'd be happy to talk to Kyle (he's here in St. Louis) and I'm sure he'd be happy to have that happen.

14:27 his original intention was to have it be that kind of resource but he is also busy running a company and other boring things like that :)

14:28 ibdknox: puredanger: I think I'd like to do that, but I'll need a bit of time before I'll be ready to really do the work

14:28 puredanger: ibdknox: I'll connect you

14:28 ibdknox: puredanger: great, thanks :)

14:28 puredanger: ibdknox: or did you mean clojure.org or learn-clojure ?

14:29 ibdknox: puredanger: learn-clojure

14:30 TimMc: Is there a way I can get '(1 2 3) to print as '(1 2 3) instead of (quote (1 2 3))?

14:31 or (1 2 3)

14:31 ibdknox: pr

14:31 mdeboard: ,("'(1 2 3)")

14:31 clojurebot: #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>

14:31 mdeboard: darn :(

14:31 ibdknox: ,(pr '(1 2 3))

14:31 clojurebot: (1 2 3)

14:32 mdeboard: ,(prn "'(1 2 3)")

14:32 clojurebot: "'(1 2 3)"

14:32 mdeboard: :o

14:32 gfredericks: TimMc: printing source code?

14:33 ibdknox: ,(pr-str '(1 2 3))

14:33 clojurebot: "(1 2 3)"

14:33 gfredericks: TimMc: you want a reader-macro-writer? :)

14:33 TimMc: gfredericks: Sort of. I am making an HTML page that shows the results of evaluating various functions on various bits of data.

14:33 gfredericks: I bet you want (fn [%] (foo %)) to be printed as #(foo %) too, don't you?

14:33 :)

14:33 TimMc: heh

14:33 just the data, ma'am

14:34 kephale: ,(pr (clojure.string/replace (clojure.string/replace `'(1 2 3) "(quote " "'") "))" ")"))

14:34 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.string>

14:34 gfredericks: TimMc: the repl prints lists without quotes...

14:34 TimMc: yeah

14:34 kephale: : P

14:34 TimMc: https://github.com/timmc/seqs/blob/master/src/seqs/core.clj

14:35 licenser: ibdknox: I was told by swanky people you are clojurescript smrt?

14:35 TimMc: My data examples are at the top.

14:35 kephale: ,(use 'clojure.string)

14:35 clojurebot: WARNING: replace already refers to: #'clojure.core/replace in namespace: sandbox, being replaced by: #'clojure.string/replace

14:35 WARNING: reverse already refers to: #'clojure.core/reverse in namespace: sandbox, being replaced by: #'clojure.string/reverse

14:35 ibdknox: licenser: lol potentially

14:35 clojurebot: nil

14:35 kephale: ,(pr (clojure.string/replace (clojure.string/replace `'(1 2 3) "(quote " "'") "))" ")"))

14:35 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: replace already refers to: #'clojure.string/replace in namespace: sandbox>

14:35 melipone: how do I find a character in a string?

14:35 kephale: err

14:35 ibdknox: uh oh

14:35 kephale: eep

14:35 * kephale smacks self… always require clojure.string

14:35 abedra: ,(require '[clojure.string :as str])

14:35 ibdknox: hiredman: clojurebot is toast

14:35 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: replace already refers to: #'clojure.string/replace in namespace: sandbox>

14:36 technomancy: ibdknox: he should restart himself every 10m iirc

14:36 dakrone: melipone: (.indexOf "aoeu" "e")

14:36 ibdknox: haha that's an awesome failsafe

14:36 gfredericks: TimMc: my thought is that if you're displaying data, lists should be printed with bare parens, just like the repl does.

14:36 licenser: heh :) ibdknox I was just bothering technomancy about lein handling clojurescript deps he told me you're the go to gut - then he might just wanted to get rid of me :P

14:37 TimMc: gfredericks: I'd like to hide the implementation detail of seqs as lists. Maybe I should just use strings and eval. -.-

14:37 ibdknox: licenser: ah, well it actually handles cljs as jars just fine already

14:37 licenser: the only "tough" part is making sure that when you run the compiler, they're on your classpath

14:37 gfredericks: TimMc: that sounds like a separate issue...

14:37 why is '(1 2 3) any less of a list that (1 2 3)?

14:37 ibdknox: licenser: if you use cljs-watch it should just work

14:38 kephale: &(do (require '[clojure.string :as s]) (pr (s/replace (s/replace `'(1 2 3) "(quote " "'") "))" ")")))

14:38 lazybot: ⇒ "'(1 2 3)"nil

14:38 gfredericks: s/that/than

14:38 licenser: ibdknox: that means we can just toss clojurescript libs in clojars and all is fine and fluffy?

14:38 TimMc: gfredericks: Because (1 2 3) does not evaluate to itself whereas [1 2 3] does.

14:38 ibdknox: licenser: yessir

14:38 * technomancy wonders if that is the kind of thing you would use classifiers for

14:38 gfredericks: TimMc: I thought it was data -- why would you be evaluating it?

14:39 licenser: ibdknox: technomancy did not promise too much when recommending you :P

14:39 TimMc: gfredericks: I want to show that (coll? (seq [1 2 3])) gives true -- and that involves being able to print "(seq [1 2 3])".

14:40 ibdknox: licenser: that's because I can't do much ;)

14:40 licenser: lol

14:40 gfredericks: TimMc: ah, okay, so it's not just data

14:41 TimMc: right

14:41 gfredericks: I'm not sure where I got that idea, I may have made it up.

14:41 TimMc: I may have said it.

14:41 gfredericks: if the problem is hard, invent something that simplifies it.

14:47 seancorfield: technomancy: why is the swank-clojure switch repl to namespace command bound to C-c M-p? that seems hard to type and C-c C-n seems more intuitive ('n' for namespace) and didn't seem bound to anything else (at least for me)

14:49 danlarkin: p is for package

14:49 from common lisp

14:49 technomancy: yep

14:49 callen: I prefer the Count, rather than learning the alphabet.

14:50 THREE! AH AH AHHH

14:50 hiredman: looking for tests for syntax quote

14:50 https://github.com/hiredman/syntax-quote/blob/master/test/syntax_quote/core_test.clj

14:50 callen: hiredman: for what?

14:50 hiredman: thats what I got, but I am sure there are cases that I have missed

14:51 callen: hiredman: what...is this?

14:51 hiredman: what's with the backticks?

14:56 TimMc: "clojure's syntax quote as a macro"

14:56 hiredman: Nested quoting.

14:58 hiredman: You might also consider checking that gensym for the same symbol is different in different quotes.

14:59 seancorfield: danlarkin: thanx, that makes sense now

15:00 i've rebound it to C-c C-n which makes more sense for me with clojure (and is way easier to type / press!)

15:00 * seancorfield is slowly building his init.el file :)

15:01 scottj: what % of the time do you go to the repl after doing C-c M-p?

15:02 seancorfield: you're going to tell me there's an easier way? (he asks, hopefully!)

15:02 scottj: well I have C-c C-S-z do C-c M-p and C-c C-z

15:03 jlf: seancorfield: C-c C-<letter> bindings are reserved for major modes, so that may get you into trouble later -- C-c <letter> bindings are reserved for users

15:03 see http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/elisp/html_node/Key-Binding-Conventions.html

15:07 hiredman: seancorfield: https://gist.github.com/1355999

15:08 seancorfield: jlf: good to know... but i find C-c <letter> harder to type than C-c C-<letter> - i already bound something else to other-window because C-x o was too awkward (i kept pressing C-x C-o by accident)

15:10 very nice hiredman thanx!

15:12 wwmorgan: how would you download an image from a URL to a file? The first 2 or 3 things I've tried either give me an empty file, or only download half the image.

15:14 hiredman: (clojure.java.io/copy (URL. ...) (clojure.java.io/file ...))

15:14 (that may or may not work)

15:16 drewr: (URL. ...) => (io/file "http://...")

15:16 in case that's easier

15:16 * technomancy was thinking io/input-stream

15:17 puredanger: Re the earlier discussion on improving Clojure docs, I blogged some ideas and links here: http://tech.puredanger.com/2011/11/10/improving-clojures-docs/

15:17 wwmorgan: aha. You're using io/file for the destination, I was using io/output-stream. That might explain it

15:19 OK I think I'm in business with (with-open [is (.openstream (java.net.URL. url))] (io/copy is (io/file dest))). Thanks hiredman, drewr, technomancy!

15:20 danlarkin: you can io/copy an url itself

15:21 drewr: danlarkin: you're right... io/copy promotes its args doesn't it

15:22 wwmorgan: darlarkin: can you? I tried a string URL and a java.net.URL. The first one just gave me the contents of the string itself and the second gave me a no multimethod error

15:22 danlarkin: yeah it's implemented as a bunch of multimethods so it munges its args until it's in a form that it can actually copy bytes

15:22 oh really?

15:23 well I know that the String defmethod copies the bytes of the string, but I thought there was a java.net.URL version

15:23 maybe there isn't

15:23 hiredman: there may not be one for http urls

15:24 wwmorgan: no dice on (io/copy (java.net.URL. "http://clojure.org/file/view/clojure-icon.gif") (io/file "/tmp/logo.gif"))

15:24 hiredman: might only work with file http urls

15:24 er

15:24 file urls

15:25 wwmorgan: but I can wrap the URL in io/input-stream and everything works again

15:25 hiredman: yeah, well

15:26 drewr: wwmorgan: don't bother with the URL constructor

15:27 try (io/file "http://...")

15:27 or io/reader

15:27 danlarkin: no no don't use io/reader if you don't want it sucked into a String

15:28 which ballses binary data

15:28 raek: use io/url if you want a url...

15:28 and as danlarkin says, reader is for text, input-stream is for binary data

15:29 wwmorgan: I've got (io/copy (io/input-stream url) (io/file dest)), which works

15:29 drewr: danlarkin: that's right he's dealing with an image isn't he

15:29 wwmorgan: nice

15:30 wwmorgan: the final solution was entirely too simple for me to struggle for so long. Thanks again!

15:30 danlarkin: that will leak an inputstream, won't it?

15:31 wwmorgan: danlarkin: It would appear so. I'll use with-open

15:31 drewr: ah, io/file is only for File (derp)

15:35 seancorfield: emacs/lein workflow question: if you update project dependencies in project.clj, how do you go about running lein deps and refreshing your repl?

15:36 right now i'm using an eshell to run lein deps, then running clojure-jack-in (and killing the previous process)

15:36 technomancy: seancorfield: you should be able to use pomegranate for that, but for some reason it doesn't work with swank

15:36 open issue, for now just re-jack-in

15:36 if you set :checksum-deps true in project.clj you don't need to run deps manually

15:37 seancorfield: ah, right, i remember reading about that the other day

15:37 is there a page that documents all of the stuff that can appear in project.clj?

15:37 technomancy: lein help sample

15:39 seancorfield: ah good point technomancy thanx

15:40 technomancy: sure

15:40 seancorfield: holy %$@& that's a lot of options!

15:41 duck1123: seancorfield: it might be easier to read on the github page

15:42 technomancy: lein help sample > #<buffer sample.clj> # C-x b sample, M-x clojure-mode

15:42 if you're in eshell

15:42 and you want highlighting

15:50 _ulises: I suppose nobody here knows how to reset ones clojars password?

15:52 melipone: ,(.indexOf "aeoa" "e")

15:52 clojurebot: 1

15:53 melipone: ,(.indexOf "aeoa" "a")

15:53 clojurebot: 0

15:53 _ulises: sod it

15:53 * _ulises registers again

15:56 technomancy: _ulises: I think you need to contact alex osborne

15:56 _ulises: technomancy: thanks. I've registered again. I'll let him know anyway to avoid username pollution

16:00 TimMc: $mail drguildo I'm writing up an explanation of seqs and colls, starting here: https://github.com/timmc/seqs (just playing around so far)

16:00 lazybot: Message saved.

16:17 _ulises: eep

16:18 gfredericks: _ulises: you went to the profile page and it wouldn't work?

16:18 _ulises: gfredericks: I couldn't log in as I didn't remember my password

16:18 gfredericks: oh. haha. of course.

16:18 duck1123: keepass

16:19 _ulises: :)

16:27 gfredericks: duck1123: beanbag?

16:28 duck1123: also don't want the name to imply that it has anything to do with EJBs and spring and all that :/

16:28 duck1123: that could work. Took me a second to figure out wft you were talking about though

16:29 gfredericks: I know :)

16:29 maybe a name centered around class generation

16:30 settlers.

16:30 brehaut: gfredericks: ##(apply str "lib-" (repeatedly 4 #(rand-int 10))) have you forgotten your own rules already‽

16:30 lazybot: ⇒ "lib-2367"

16:30 gfredericks: lib-2367 it is.

16:31 "The 2367 is for the future!"

16:33 brehaut: do you have a keyboard shortcut for the interrobang or something?

16:33 brehaut: gfredericks: os x text replacement

16:33 gfredericks: slick.

16:44 klauern: in leiningen, if you've defined a project as 'foo', how are the .clj files and (ns) definitions parsed under the src/ directory?

16:45 can I have a (ns bar) inside of the src/ directory even if the project is 'foo' ?

16:45 can I have a src/bar/thing.clj file or do I have to keep everything under src/foo ?

16:45 brehaut: klauern: im pretty sure the namespaces provided by the project are completely seperate to the project (and thus package) name

16:45 klauern: ok

16:46 I keep tripping up with the REPL because I use one leiningen project for alot of scratch files and they don't follow the same structure as the project

16:46 I'm still learning, so I'll have a foo.clj file in the src/ directory and not know why I can't (require 'foo) properly

16:47 brehaut: does it have (ns foo) in it?

16:47 klauern: that's what I'm still experimenting with

16:47 technomancy: clojurebot: single-segment namespaces?

16:47 clojurebot: single-segment namespaces is unsupported. (foo instead of foo.core) they may work in a few circumstances, but you shouldn't rely on them.

16:48 hiredman: is?!

16:48 brehaut: english must be clojurebot's second language

16:49 hiredman: ~english

16:49 clojurebot: English is the official language of the universe

16:50 brehaut: i expect us in color and the correct spelling of aluminium from now on

16:51 technomancy: bring it on

16:51 gfredericks: duck1123: https://github.com/fredericksgary/lib-2367

16:51 brehaut: technomancy: no apropos comic?

16:52 gfredericks: lol :)

16:52 technomancy: oh snap

16:52 brehaut: technomancy: is the queens english your kryptonite?

16:52 technomancy: brehaut: nah I'm all about lifts and carparks and so forth

16:53 just none of my comic authors appear to be

16:53 brehaut: stalemate then

16:54 technomancy: what would you call a carpark if you didnt call it a carpark?

16:54 technomancy: brehaut: "parking lot" ಠ_ಠ

16:54 it's pretty lame

16:54 brehaut: yeah

16:56 seancorfield: technomancy: just saw that eshell trick of redirecting output to a buffer! awesome! i seem to learn something new about emacs every day that makes it even more powerful and cool :)

16:56 gfredericks: I once talked to an Argentine who thought it was completely ridiculous that we didn't have a word for "traffic light".

16:57 technomancy: you can pipe to elisp functions too

16:58 seancorfield: technomancy: oh boy... my brain will explode :)

16:58 just learned how to hide join / part messages in erc too (thanx google)

16:58 technomancy: s'okay, clojurebot can usually clean up the mess

16:59 brehaut: how many of you are at the conj at the moment?

17:00 gfredericks: I doubt anyone will be bothered by my taking the group name 'lib-2367' on clojars.

17:00 callen: I'm at work.

17:00 ya bums.

17:01 technomancy: brehaut: M-| wc on /names in #clojure/conj says 21

17:01 * seancorfield puts his hand up

17:01 seancorfield: at the conj, listening to stuart halloway on "power"

17:01 brehaut: technomancy: are you trying to expand my mind with emacs tricks again?

17:01 * brehaut wishes he was at the conj

17:01 technomancy: couldn't hurt

17:02 brehaut: technomancy: very soon im going to have more emacs tricks pinned to my wall than wall

17:03 seancorfield: brehaut: i'd rather have them "pinned" to my brain... but there may not be enough room :(

17:04 brehaut: seancorfield: likewise. they keep falling out of my mind

17:04 seancorfield: maybe i just need more pins...

17:21 callen: seancorfield: get a voodoo doll.

17:21 seancorfield: someone, somewhere, will start learning Clojure. Painfully.

17:21 seancorfield: "BWAHAHAHA, HOW YOU LIKE MY NAMESPACE NOW?!"

17:24 damn, tough crowd.

17:24 y'all some haters.

17:25 technomancy: everybody's busy watching the conj talk

17:25 callen: technomancy: rink?

17:25 mjwhitt: and it's a good talk

17:25 callen: RINK

17:26 technomancy: http://clojure-conj.org/schedule#halloway

17:26 callen: that is *not* a video.

17:26 :(

17:26 brehaut: where did this assumption that there would be live streams come from?

17:26 callen: I assumed a lack of communism.

17:26 clearly I should've quit my job and shown up.

17:27 aperiodic: are they being filmed for later uploading?

17:27 michael_campbell: yes

17:27 aperiodic: *all* of them?

17:27 callen: well then.

17:27 I will asynchronously process the talks.

17:28 michael_campbell: Camera's been going since the first talk, near as I can see.

17:28 aperiodic: awesome

17:28 callen: <3

17:28 duck1123: it's a minor consolation

17:28 aperiodic: thanks to whomever's in charge of that

17:28 better than nothing!

17:29 callen: BY FAR

17:29 duck1123: oh yes, thank you to whoever is filming, I still really wish I was there

17:30 michael_campbell: talks are over for the day; time to go drink.

17:31 erldave: I have a basic question on function arguments:

17:31 (defn another-fn [& {:keys [id] }] {:ty :link :id id })

17:31 (defn add-link [& args] (println "Answer of another fn" (another-fn args)))

17:31 (add-link :a-ns "ns1" :id "testlink" :from-obj rq :to-obj qs)

17:31 why doesn't the above work?

17:32 I assume is because the variable args in add-link is not of type map any more

17:32 how should I solve this?

17:32 brehaut: erldave: add-link collects its arguments as a seq

17:32 aperiodic: args is a sequence contianing all the arguments passed to add-link

17:32 brehaut: erldave: but another-fn wants a map

17:32 erldave: yes, so how would I forward the call on?

17:32 brehaut: apply

17:33 erldave: how do I "gather" the map into a variable so I can call another-fn ?

17:33 brehaut: but you might want to reconsider you API design

17:33 duck1123: (apply another-fn args)

17:33 erldave: thanks

17:34 apply - perfect, thanks

17:40 nickmbailey: anyone around use leiningen and also build debian packages of their projects?

17:41 i'm not extremely well versed in either debian packaging or maven but the two refuse to play nice

17:41 basically 'fakeroot lein deps' refuses to work

17:42 jodaro: isn't there a lein-deb plugin?

17:42 duck1123: I was just thinking the same thing

17:43 jodaro: https://github.com/travis/lein-deb

17:43 nickmbailey: hmm interesting

17:43 jodaro: never used it, but you might take a look

17:43 nickmbailey: i doubt i'll be able to use it but it certainly might help me figure out whats going on

17:43 thanks

17:43 duck1123: In my experience, using lein with anything other than the way it says in the readme is destined to fail

17:44 jodaro: i haven't built debian packages before but our ops guys require rpms for everything

17:44 and i've been able to get most wacky build tools to deal with it since all you really need is to be able to run a shell command

17:45 nickmbailey: yeah i have no trouble building rpms

17:45 debian packages have so much fancy tooling around them though

17:45 duck1123: huzzah! My last test passes. I have now officially replaced clj-record with Korma in my work project

17:45 jodaro: nice

17:45 brehaut: duck1123: awesome :)

17:46 jodaro: ibdknox will be proud of you

17:46 duck1123: although I'm really starting to think there might still be room for a level of abstraction on top of korma

17:50 brehaut: duck1123: there probably is

17:51 duck1123: something like django's admin + south on top of korma would satisfy a particular niche quite nicely

17:51 duck1123: brehaut: doubtful there's much yet

17:52 I'd like to see something where the queries return the maps back as records, that way I could extend protocols and dispatch on types. I'm sure I can do it with the :transform flag, just haven't gotten there yet

17:53 brehaut: duck1123: ive been quite happy with multimethods and plain maps from couchdb for my site

17:54 i can see the value in protocols, but i think id want a much more involved datamodel than most the sorts of websites i buld

17:55 duck1123: how do you determine the type of the map? I had a fork of clj-record a couple of years back (that old) that attached metadata to the records, and I use karras for my mongodb work because it gives me a record to use

17:55 brehaut: duck1123: a combination of a :type member and keys

17:56 TimMc: $mail drguildo I moved it to https://github.com/timmc/seqs-and-colls

17:56 lazybot: Message saved.

18:01 duck1123: I wrote this big extensive macro system that would allow me to dispatch a record based on the combination of it's type, the response format used, and the transport protocol and then stopped using it

18:01 brehaut: oh

18:01 :/

18:02 duck1123: one other option that might be useful is core.match

18:02 duck1123: https://github.com/duck1123/ciste look at "sections"

18:03 brehaut: give me a minute, i dont want to miss the next book depository deail

18:04 duck1123: There was one place I tried to use core.match, then I learned it didn't work that way. It's staying on my classpath though. Just looking for a good place to use it

18:07 brehaut: back in a bit; lunch

18:13 callen: brehaut: hawaii?

18:24 brehaut: callen: new zealand

18:39 duck1123: are there any good examples of libraries that use macros to define functions and also change the metadata? (in my case, arglist)

18:39 I seem to be missing something

19:22 TimMc: http://www.brainonfire.net/files/seqs-and-colls/seqs-and-colls.html

19:25 (sorry, not a response to you, duck1123)

19:25 $mail drguildo http://www.brainonfire.net/files/seqs-and-colls/main.html

19:26 lazybot: Message saved.

19:53 gtrak: is there a way to seek into java code from slime/swank and emacs?

19:53 napping: I don't think there is

19:54 I was looking at things a bit and there are possibly appropriate slime/swank messages which the clojure mode doesn't implement

19:57 Actually, it's the disassemble message which isn't implemented, but could perhaps return bytecode for anything

19:59 For writing some small Swing code it seems inner defs is convenient for naming subexpressions: http://pastebin.com/NFJ8RM6H I'd like to avoid using def, but it seems I'd need to hardcode a lot of the allowed forms to get similar results with a macro.

20:00 Actually, it may only be the add method that other widgets can be nested inside

20:46 tensorpudding: hmm, running massive programs in swank which use up 1 gb of memory is a bad idea

20:46 because java won't free that memory until you kill swank, it seems

20:49 brehaut: java never frees memory that its acquired from the OS

20:49 tensorpudding: is it possible to tune the jvm to not take so much memory

20:49 brehaut: yes

20:50 lein has a project property

20:50 :jvm-opts

20:51 you can use that to pass a max heap size to use which will cause the collector to kick more readily and limit the total growth

20:51 tensorpudding: i didn't use lein that i know of, i just used clojure-mode to compile a piece of source code, which suddenly started running the program

20:51 brehaut: if you are using swank you are likely using either lein or cake

20:53 tensorpudding: i don't think i had to install lein to install clojure mode

20:54 brehaut: you dont need to use clojure mod

20:54 e

20:54 but clojure mode does not evaluator your code for you

20:54 perhaps you are using inferior lisp mode?

20:55 tensorpudding: no

20:55 a moment

20:55 oh wait, it is swank-clojure

20:56 i was running a slime command to compile it

20:56 of course...

20:57 brehaut: if you use -Xmx256m as a :jvm-opt then the heap size will be limited to 256 mb, causing the collector to be more aggressive

20:59 tensorpudding: i don't know how to configure the options sent to java, to be honest

20:59 brehaut: brb. rubbernecking

21:00 tensorpudding: well, it uses lein jack-in

21:00 so it's probably configurable through lein

21:03 though i don't see how

21:04 oh, the LEIN_JVM_OPTS variable maybe

21:04 brehaut: tensorpudding: as i said earlier, you can set the java options though your lein project file with the :jvm-opts key. it takes a vector of strings.

21:04 tensorpudding: this particular instance didn't involve a project

21:04 there was no project.clj file here

21:04 i just compiled a .clj file

21:04 and sent it to swank

21:05 well, i mean, there was the project that i used to jack-in, but that wasn't where the code that i compiled was

21:05 brehaut: the project that you used to jack in is the important part

21:06 tensorpudding: meh

21:06 i suppose so

21:09 leo2007: does the reference on clojure.org provide any more info than the doc-strings src?

21:11 brehaut: leo2007: it varies; often it has more conceptual or rational type docs, if not concrete examples

21:11 leo2007: clojuredocs.org is pretty solid for examples though

21:11 (where they exist)

21:11 ajsharp: so i'm a complete clojure newb -- am i heading down a sadomasochistic path by trying to program clojure in vim?

21:12 gfredericks: ajsharp: there's an embarrassed but significant minority of us.

21:12 ajsharp: gfredericks: good to know :)

21:12 gfredericks: I mostly try to get by by not thinking about what I'm missing.

21:12 ajsharp: sounds like emacs and SLIME is how the hardcore dudes work in clojure

21:12 tensorpudding: it's a good excuse to try emacs out

21:13 if you haven't yet

21:13 ajsharp: tensorpudding: also good to know

21:13 tensorpudding: though getting started through swank/slime is drinking from a big firehose

21:13 gfredericks: ajsharp: I also reassure myself by noting that nearly half of the issues brought up in #clojure are people having trouble with their swanks and their swines and their thing-modes.

21:13 tensorpudding: slime

21:13 not swine

21:13 ajsharp: the thing that always threw me about emacs was constantly keeping my pinky on the ctrl key, but i don't want to get into a vim / emacs discussion...

21:14 tensorpudding: i totally would find emacs unusable if i didn't bind caps lock as control a while ago

21:14 it helps in general

21:15 ajsharp: tensorpudding: yea, i do the same already

21:15 actually, i bind it as escape, but i use it exclusively for vim

21:15 anyway

21:15 i also have very limited experience with the jvm, so that said, what is nailgun?

21:16 brehaut: ajsharp: totally use vim if you know it

21:17 ajsharp: brehaut: yea, i'm definitely going to start with vim, and maybe i'll give emacs a try at some point before i get too deep

21:17 brehaut: ajsharp: i have heard good things about evil-mode for vim expats in emacs land

21:17 (which is apparently better than vyper?)

21:18 ajsharp: haha

21:18 that's awesome -- evil-mode

21:18 vim for emacs

21:18 so nailgun is a clojure development server?

21:25 gfredericks: nailgun is a generic jvm server

21:25 exists to circumvent the jvm startup time

21:31 ajsharp: gfredericks: oh ok, cool, thanks

21:34 leo2007: brehaut: thanks for that.

21:35 why (seq? [1 2 3]) is false?

21:36 brehaut: leo2007: many collections that are sequential are not seqs

21:36 ,(map (juxt seq? sequential) [[] () {} #{}])

21:36 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: sequential in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>

21:37 brehaut: ,(map (juxt seq? sequential?) [[] () {} #{}])

21:37 clojurebot: ([false true] [true true] [false false] [false false])

21:37 leo2007: brehaut: thanks again.

21:38 brehaut: leo2007: a seq is a particular abstraction; you hardly ever use seq? in real code, but you might use coll?

21:38 leo2007: brehaut: I see.

21:39 brehaut: leo2007: and to complete this pile of noise, vectors while sequential are implemented use trees (well, tries) internally

21:41 TimMc: brehaut: I'm trying to throw together a page explaining colls and seqs in clojure: http://www.brainonfire.net/files/seqs-and-colls/main.html

21:42 brehaut: TimMc: excellent

21:42 TimMc: Needs a lot more text and organization.

21:44 brehaut: and perhaps discussion of equality partitions?

21:44 TimMc: Good point!

21:50 aperiodic: wait, so vectors have lg(n) access time?

21:50 TimMc: base 32, I think

21:51 gfredericks: aperiodic: that means yes

21:51 aperiodic: well, that's not too bad

21:51 klauern: Are there any tips or strategies for making Clojure wrappers around Java libs?

21:52 In particular, how to do you wrap a method that returns an instance of a type or List<T> of something?

21:54 * TimMc mumbles something uncertain about type erasures

21:56 aperiodic: wait, is a vector just a map with integer keys?

21:56 brehaut: aperiodic: roughly

21:56 it is different

21:56 aperiodic: how so?

21:57 brehaut: ,(assoc {} 3 1)

21:57 gfredericks: {1 :foo, 10000000 :bar} would not go well as a vector

21:57 clojurebot: {3 1}

21:57 brehaut: ,(assoc [] 3 1)

21:57 clojurebot: #<IndexOutOfBoundsException java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException>

21:58 brehaut: vectors are required to have contigous keys

21:58 aperiodic: okay

21:58 brehaut: and you conj onto a vector with a single item, but you conj onto a map with a pair

21:58 gfredericks: aperiodic: I think most people associate them more closely with lists than with maps.

21:59 aperiodic: so it's a map with tight restrictions on the keys, and presumably some performance benefits resulting from that?

21:59 brehaut: yes

21:59 aperiodic: gfredericks: i always thought maps were more or less arrays (constant-access)

22:00 brehaut: klauern: timmc is right about type erasure; List<T> is a java langauge ficton that doesnt really exist in the JVM

22:00 gfredericks: in terms of performance you could maybe say that, but certainly having arbitrary objects for keys distinguishes maps from arrays rather drastically

22:00 napping: klauern: can you seq it?

22:00 aperiodic: s/maps/vecs/

22:01 brain fart

22:01 klauern: I would think so, but I'm new to Clojure, so I don't know how well clojure understands lists in Java

22:01 napping: It seems to work

22:01 gfredericks: aperiodic: and of course in any case the persistent-immutable thing is definitely not very array-like

22:01 pardon me if you're well familiar with that and I'm just nit-picking

22:02 klauern: I would think that returning whatever the Java call created is bad form as far as Clojure is concerned, and it'd be better to weave in a more Clojuresque return type

22:03 napping: klauern: Call seq on the result

22:03 maybe

22:03 brehaut: klauern: java interop is first class in clojure; dealing with java objects is not dirty

22:04 klauern: ah

22:04 napping: If it's just a collection like a list or something, converting it might be nice, but if it's more useful than that, you might as well expose it

22:04 aperiodic: gfredericks: i mean, i know they're not arrays in some very important respects, but my rough mental categorization was seq -> linked list, vec -> array, map -> hashtable

22:05 brehaut: ,(seq (doto (java.util.ArrayList.) (.add :a) (.add :b)))

22:05 clojurebot: (:a :b)

22:05 napping: unless you are going to a lot of trouble to rewrite a nicer interface. I guess you could say that's what clojure collections are already

22:05 brehaut: ,(map inc (doto (java.util.ArrayList.) (.add 2) (.add 1)))

22:05 clojurebot: (3 2)

22:05 klauern: Right now I'm hoping to learn Clojure idioms and just get a better feel for the language

22:06 if the library I create ends up being useful at the end, all the better I suppose

22:06 gfredericks: aperiodic: that's a decent rough mental categorization.

22:06 aperiodic: gfredericks: so it was just a bit weird to hear that vecs are actually tries

22:07 i might wanna look at the implementation to make sure i'm not doing anything too stupid with them

22:08 brehaut: ,(map #(java.util.Collections/frequency % 1) [[] [1] [2 1 0 1 0 3]])

22:08 clojurebot: (0 1 2)

22:08 brehaut: klauern: ^ as you can see, clojures operations know about java objects and clojrues collections fullfil the appropriate interfaces for java operations

22:09 klauern: That's good to know

22:09 gfredericks: aperiodic: that's because of the persistent-immutable part

22:10 brehaut: aperiodic: it means they are more naturally paralizable

22:10 gfredericks: else it'd be hard to have good performance for "changing" vectors

22:10 brehaut: aperiodic: and are cheaper for internal updates

22:10 aperiodic: yeah, that makes sense, because otherwise the entire vector would have to be copied whenever a single location was updated

22:11 which would be less than ideal

22:11 TimMc: brehaut: I got a start on equality partitions. Anything beyond the 4 coll types to cover?

22:11 brehaut: TimMc: interop ;) ?

22:11 TimMc: urgh

22:12 brehaut: i wouldnt worry about that

22:12 TimMc: I could mention the interfaces.

22:12 There's more basic stuff to cover first.

22:12 brehaut: TimMc: i think theres only three equality partitions though, so just those 4 should be fine

22:12 (sequentials, maps, sets right?)

22:12 TimMc: yeah

22:13 brehaut: you might want to note that sorted or not isnt relevate to identity ?

22:13 but meta data is?

22:14 err isnt

22:14 duck1123: metadata does not impact equality

22:15 brehaut: thats what i was trying to say, but failed at completely

22:16 TimMc: ,(= (sorted-set) (hash-set))

22:16 clojurebot: true

22:16 gfredericks: ,(= [] #{})

22:16 clojurebot: false

22:17 TimMc: gfredericks: This is the article I am working on: http://www.brainonfire.net/files/seqs-and-colls/main.html

22:17 gfredericks: ,(= () (new java.util.ArrayList))

22:17 clojurebot: true

22:17 aperiodic: so, let's say that i wanted a thread-local mutable array in clojure, for doing something like image processing (so the array's size would make the log_32 factor non-trivial)

22:17 what would i use?

22:17 brehaut: gfredericks: new? thats old school right?

22:17 gfredericks: aperiodic: a transient vector?

22:18 brehaut: aperiodic: for image processing? use an array

22:18 gfredericks: aperiodic: or just an array, if you want

22:18 brehaut: what's old school about it?

22:18 brehaut: gfredericks: its from before the (Constructor.) notation?

22:19 gfredericks: I like new. Constructor. looks like a typo.

22:19 it's just hiding there.

22:19 aperiodic: likewise

22:19 gfredericks: verbs go up front!

22:19 aperiodic: so easy to miss if you're not careful

22:20 and "new " is only 4 more chars

22:20 gfredericks: I don't want my eye to have to wander to the end of a long qualified classname just to figure out what we're doing with it

22:20 aperiodic: 3, since you save the "."

22:21 dang whippersnappers.

22:21 brehaut: i find the the lumbering CapitalCamelNames usually is sufficient to spot a constructor ;P

22:21 gfredericks: brehaut: vs static field access?

22:21 brehaut: but that always has a /fieldName

22:21 gfredericks: yeah but I can't tell that till I've gotten to the end of the thing

22:21 brehaut: i suspect this is my python roots showing through

22:23 aperiodic: http://dosync.posterous.com/lispers-know-the-value-of-everything-and-the

22:23 leo2007: Is -main special? I have seen something like (def -main start-repl) in a few projects?

22:23 brehaut: leo2007: - is the default prefix for genclass methods

22:24 -main the is compiled to a public static main method of the genclass class

22:25 aperiodic: brehaut: handy, thanks!

22:25 brehaut: (which if you are unfamilar with the jvm, is the entry point for a startup class)

22:25 aperiodic: dnolen's posterous is choc full of interesting stuff

22:26 aperiodic: brehaut: bookmarked

22:26 (inc brehaut)

22:26 gfredericks: (dec lazybot)

22:26 lazybot: You want me to leave karma the same? Fine, I will.

22:27 aperiodic: what a bum

22:27 gfredericks: lazybot: get a job.

22:27 brehaut: raynes really needs to fix that

22:28 aperiodic: &(inc 3)

22:28 lazybot: ⇒ 4

22:28 TimMc: ,(inc brehaut)

22:28 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: brehaut in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>

22:28 brehaut: lol

22:28 gfredericks: &(let [brehaut (rand-int 10)] (inc brehaut))

22:28 lazybot: ⇒ 9

22:28 aperiodic: is it a problem with karma in particular?

22:28 Raynes: Yeah, somewhere along the line the karma plugin got broken. Don't know why, don't know how.

22:28 brehaut: yeah, karma doesnt run through the evaluator

22:29 aperiodic: right

22:29 Raynes: But if somebody bitches about it after the conj, I'll definitely fix it.

22:29 * gfredericks bitches about it during the conj

22:29 brehaut: Raynes: i read through your slides; looked good

22:29 great cats

22:29 Raynes: Heh

22:29 aperiodic: i had a problem trying to setup lazybot the other week where it would only respond to evaluation commands

22:29 everything else it would ignore

22:30 Raynes: aperiodic: I bet you were mistaking your evaluation prefix with your command prefix.

22:30 aperiodic: Can I see your ~/.lazybot/config.clj file? Minus passwords and such.

22:31 aperiodic: Raynes: sure, one sec

22:32 brehaut: karma raynes

22:33 and i realise ive forgotten the command prefix

22:34 TimMc: $karma Raynes

22:34 lazybot: Raynes has karma 0.

22:34 TimMc: $inc Raynes

22:34 guess not

22:34 brehaut: $karma amalloy

22:34 lazybot: amalloy has karma 0.

22:34 brehaut: yeah its really borken

22:34 TimMc: hah

22:35 brehaut: maybe amalloy amassed so much karma that the bot couldnt track it any longer

22:35 aperiodic: Raynes: https://gist.github.com/1357108

22:35 gfredericks: Raynes: are the old karmas forgotten? If so, I'm going to stop being helpful.

22:36 Raynes: I'm getting it is a communication-with-database problem.

22:36 s/getting/thinking.

22:36 brehaut: Raynes: signs do point that way

22:36 gfredericks: Okay. I will tentatively continue trying to be helpful.

22:36 Raynes: https://github.com/flatland/lazybot/blob/develop/src/lazybot/plugins/karma.clj if anyone wants to take a look and be super cool and try to fix it themselves before I get a chance.

22:37 brehaut: Raynes: switched from mongo to dev null?

22:37 Raynes: Also, update congomongo while you're at it.

22:37 ;)

22:37 aperiodic: One sec.

22:37 aperiodic: Raynes: also, when i ran &(doc foo), all the "s"s in the docstring were removed. i have no idea how

22:37 Raynes: &(doc slurp)

22:37 lazybot: ⇒ "([f & opts]); Opens a reader on f and reads all its contents, returning a string. See clojure.java.io/reader for a complete list of supported arguments."

22:37 aperiodic: they were replaced with spaces

22:38 i felt crazy

22:38 Raynes: Are you using the latest from the develop branch on github.com/flatland/lazybot

22:38 ?

22:38 Like, the very latest? I seem to recall fixing that 100 years ago.

22:38 leo2007: brehaut: thanks

22:38 Raynes: (a couple of weeks ago)

22:39 aperiodic: Raynes: not the very latest, no

22:39 Raynes: Updating ought to fix that 's' problem.

22:39 So, how were you trying to evaluate commands?

22:39 Show me an example

22:40 aperiodic: Raynes: it was at a2ab9d

22:41 Raynes: "$fortune"

22:41 Raynes: aperiodic: Look at the ':prepends' key in your config.

22:41 Those are what the bot will respond to normal commands for.

22:41 aperiodic: ah, so that's what that is

22:41 Raynes: By default, that'd be @.

22:41 I need to rename that to 'prefixes'.

22:42 I don't think prepend is a word.

22:42 aperiodic: i think it is a word, but it's not obvious what it was for

22:42 Raynes: Agreed.

22:42 aperiodic: thanks for the help!

22:42 Raynes: No problem.

22:42 :)

22:43 Also, lazybot recently went under heavy renovation, including a move to 1.3. If any of the plugins don't work, let me know by creating an issue on the Github page.

22:43 * Raynes is off.

22:43 Raynes: Night #clojure!

22:43 brehaut: later Raynes

22:44 aperiodic: gnight!

22:51 leo2007: If I change project.clj do I need to restart swank?

22:51 brehaut: leo2007: it might depend on what the change is, but i suspect so?

22:52 leo2007: I just changed :dev-dependencies

22:52 brehaut: then yes

22:59 gfredericks: ,(:foo :bar :baz)

22:59 clojurebot: :baz

23:02 brehaut: lol

23:04 gfredericks: clojure: it just works.

23:05 (def identity (partial :foo :bar))

23:05 brehaut: classic

23:05 keywords also double as false then

23:06 gfredericks: how so?

23:06 brehaut: in lambda calc true is (fn [t _] t) and false is (fn [_ f] f)

23:07 gfredericks: aah

23:07 not if you pass them a map

23:07 brehaut: hah

23:07 true

23:07 gfredericks: (def true (comp first list)) (def false (comp second list))

23:08 okay on that note, I'm going to go dream about lambdas.

23:08 brehaut: brain fart time. i think and is (fn [a b] (a b a)) and or is (fn [a b] (a a b)) ?

23:09 gfredericks: which I assume are some kind of sheep/llama-type animal

23:09 brehaut: haha

23:09 night

23:58 woo enlive to the rescue

23:59 my atom feed is no longer the worst quality on the clojure planet

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