#clojure log - Sep 27 2011

The Joy of Clojure
Main Clojure site
Google Group
List of all logged dates

0:23 andar__: How can I improve this function? Is there a way to use doto with a sequence of args? http://pastebin.com/PnnCDcK7

0:25 amalloy: andar__: off the top of my head it looks like you could simplify to (loop [[[x y] & others] xy-coll] (... (recur others)))

0:26 or probably turn the whole thing into a doseq with a similar binding

0:27 ie, more like https://gist.github.com/1244341

0:27 brehaut: andar__: also, nil is one of the two falsy values in clojure, so you dont need to test (nil? x)

0:29 andar__: thanks amalloy and brehaut

0:32 brehaut: andar__: more generally you use a reduce just about anywhere you would use primitive recursion with loop / recur.

0:32 andar__: although doseq is clearer in this case because its indicative of side effecting code

0:32 amalloy: brehaut: i don't know that i would say that. in many cases you would use map, not reduce, for example

0:33 ie, loop/recur can implement a lot of patterns, and while of course so can reduce, it's not always the right "upgrade"

0:33 brehaut: andar__: but (reduce (fn [series [x y]] (doto series (.add x y)) (XYSeries. name) xy-coll)

0:33 amalloy: thats why i set primative recursion

0:33 which is the case that reduce is equivalent to

0:33 amalloy: uhh

0:34 brehaut: i think is probably more haskell assery

0:35 amalloy: *chuckle*

0:35 brehaut: i mean, you can implement map as a reduce, provided you either have a lazy language or don't mind strictness

0:35 brehaut: im also having a typing fail today. sorry about that

0:35 amalloy: definately, map in a lazy language is fairly trivial example of primative recursion

0:36 amalloy: no worries, my comparative languages class in college had a section on "sleepy typos"

0:36 brehaut: hah

0:36 its for the best

0:38 i should go cook dinner

0:39 amalloy: huh, i'm always learning something from 4clojure. it finally occurred to me to do bounds-checking with (every? true? (map < [-1 -1] [y x] [h w]))

0:39 taking advantage of the multi-arity versions of < *and* map, neither of which i ever use

0:39 technomancy: that is really slick EXCEPT for how every? requires a predicate. that part is dumb.

0:40 amalloy: technomancy: isn't a change to that on the horizon?

0:40 technomancy: amalloy: open ticket; chouser approves, but no discussion so far

0:40 I guess I could give it a poke again now that 1.3 is out

0:40 amalloy: chouser approves! it's practically 1.0 already

0:41 technomancy: well... he suggested the same thing like two years ago. I guess that doesn't imply he still approves.

0:41 amalloy: *laugh*

0:42 technomancy: i forget, did you want to extend any of these things to 3+ args as well, or just allow a 1-arg version?

0:42 technomancy: amalloy: just using identity as the default predicate

0:43 3+ args would be map-style for multiple-argument predicates?

0:43 amalloy: technomancy: i dunno. that seemed viable but possibly confusing, and i haven't thought much about it, so i hoped you'd tell me whether you'd already figured it out

0:44 eg, a map-style filter makes only marginal sense, since there's no element to return. but a multi-arg not-any? seems to make sense

0:44 technomancy: haven't thought that through all the way

0:45 amalloy: then i wouldn't even need a default predicate - i could write (every? < [-1 -1] [y x] [h w])

0:45 technomancy: handy for that, but I'm not sure how generally-applicable it'd be

0:45 amalloy: nor am i

0:45 technomancy: the only drawback I can see with 2-arg filter is that I like it a lot more when the optional arg can be last.

0:46 but that's certainly not a hard-and-fast rule

0:49 amalloy: i think a hard-and-fast rule should be that when you write (every? true? ...) you have to try to pronounce it out loud

0:52 technomancy: in Mandarin, question-ness is indicated by appending "ma" to the sentence since you can't use tonality.

0:52 CL's whatever-p always reminded me of that for some reason.

0:53 if I ever invent a joke lisp dialect I will be sure to use -ma as the convention for predicate naming.

0:53 or should I say... WHEN I invent a joke lisp dialect.

1:18 TheBusby: just FYI, it's "ka" for Japanese...

1:18 anyone have any luck in getting clj-http to ignore self-signed certs?

2:11 amalloy: technomancy: link to the ticket? i might as well kick the tires

3:10 cark: anybody knows how to type hint for an array of objects ?

3:15 ah there it is : ^"[Ljava.awt.Color;"

3:15 was missing the last ;

3:16 michaelr525: kool

3:46 pyr: ibdknox: still around ?

3:48 ibdknox: pyr: for a min, what's up?

3:51 pyr: ibdknox: pe/on has a very weird behavior

3:51 ibdknox: for me in pinot

3:51 ibdknox: most of the time it doesn't catch events

3:52 ibdknox: setting aside my own code, if you take the todo code for instance

3:53 ibdknox: it will only remove the last item which usually gets 3 calls

3:54 ibdknox: (using the snapshot you posted yesterday)

4:27 ibdknox: pyr: hm, I just tried it locally and it worked fine

4:27 pyr: ah

4:27 ibdknox: pyr: to confirm, the call looks like this, right?: (pe/on todo-item :click ...

4:28 pyr: yep

4:28 ibdknox: and what is it doing for you?

4:28 pyr: (pe/on (dom/query ...) rather)

4:29 (pe/on (dom/query foo) :click some-func)

4:29 rather

4:29 ibdknox: yeah

4:29 that doesn't delegate

4:29 https://github.com/ibdknox/pinot/blob/master/examples/todo.cljs

4:29 you wanna do it like that

4:30 with it that way, anything ever created using the todo-item partial

4:30 will have that event bound on it

4:30 pyr: so i need to create partial even for my links

4:30 ibdknox: you don't have to, no

4:31 pyr: binding to dom/query doesn't seem to work right

4:31 ibdknox: mkay

4:31 pyr: the array return and handled in nodelist->coll seems to be empty

4:32 i'll try with partials

4:32 (also, wasn't i supposed to use the reorg branch ?)

4:33 ibdknox: I merged it all into master :)

4:33 pyr: ah, ok

4:33 will switch

4:33 ibdknox: pyr: yeah I'm seeing weird behavior. I'll debug it tomorrow, I'm dead tired

4:33 pyr: np

4:33 cool to have it confirmed :)

4:34 ibdknox: thanks for the catch :) I'll let you know when it's fixed!

4:35 Blafasel: Hmm.. Is clooj usable?

4:35 michaelr525: what is clooj?

4:35 Blafasel: Just started the latest version (eclipse/ccw is not helpful) and it seems to do ~nothing~

4:35 michaelr525: One of the 'IDE' options linked to from GettingStarted

4:36 A clojure ~ide~ develped in clojure it seems.

4:36 amalloy: Blafasel: i have heard of people using it with every indication of enjoyment

4:37 when i turned it on just for fun, it seemed to work okay, but i'm happy with emacs

4:37 michaelr525: yeah, i'm happy to learn emacs, it really gives me satisfaction ;)

4:38 Blafasel: amalloy: Hmm.. The repl doesn't work for me (it just repeats my input, 1 -> 1, (1) -> (1), (println "foo") -> (println "foo") .. And it goes down from there. :( So maybe I need to give CCW another try then.

4:38 michaelr525: yesterday started stabbing paredit - and this kind of completes the picture

4:40 robermann: about Emacs / paredit: is it possible to have matching parentesis of different colors?

4:41 raek: there is a rainbow-paren-mode

4:41 robermann: wow - where is it?

4:42 raek: could be this one http://dishevelled.net/elisp/rainbow-parens.el

4:42 kjeldahl: robermann: I'm on emacs24, and it looks like they are "rainbow" colored by default...

4:42 raek: I tried it, but I don't use it.

4:43 robermann: kjeldahl: I'm on GNU Emacs 23.1.50

4:44 for Windows... :) Also Aquamacs does not color them

4:44 amalloy: i used rainbow-parens for a while. it looked reasonably nice but wasn't actually very useful

4:44 xian: Hi. I can't seem to run jars built with 'lein jar' or 'lein uberjar'. I get a NoClassDefFoundException with the following message: Could not find the main class: match1.core. Program will exit.

4:44 Upon inspecting the jar I found out that there was no class named match1.core in the jar.

4:45 robermann: kjeldahl: I mean in the REPL

4:45 Pupeno: Any recommendation on a body of Clojure samples to use to test syntax highlighting?

4:46 robermann: amalloy: when I am on the REPL and I'm editing an existing function (M-p) I find difficult to remember all the matching parenthesis

4:46 kjeldahl: robermann: In repl, I'm not seeing rainbows either...

4:47 amalloy: yeah, i can see that being handy. i don't do much typing into the actual repl; i usually edit the source file (or *scratch* buffer) and eval stuff from there with C-M-x and friends

4:48 kjeldahl: robermann: But doing "highlight-parenthesis-mode" in repl gives me rainbows (at least if activated after paredit-mode like I just tested - not sure if paredit is needed at all)

4:48 kzar: Is there a way to have clojure.repl used by default when you're connecting to the REPL with Emacs?

4:49 michaelr525: i also found this, but did't try it: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2413047/how-do-i-get-rainbow-parentheses-in-emacs

4:49 robermann: kjeldahl : how do I turn on highlight-parenthesis-mode? M-x + tab does not show it

4:50 kjeldahl: kzar: Add a ":repl-init my-namespace.clj" in project.clj which pulls it in...

4:50 kzar: Oops, minus the .clj extension (just the namespace name, not filename).

4:50 robermann: Could be emacs24... Shows up automatically here.

4:51 michaelr525: robermann: i have it being loaded from .emacs. found it somewhere on the internetz. do you want it?

4:52 kzar: kjeldahl: Ah right thanks

4:52 kjeldahl: kzar: I was wrong. It's in my elisp directory. Points to http://nschum.de/src/emacs/highlight-parentheses/

4:53 kzar: Should work fine for your version as well.

4:53 michaelr525: robermann: http://pastie.org/2598687

4:54 kjeldahl: Ha ha, mixed up kzar and robermann. Sorry guys, but you got it I guess.

4:54 robermann: thank you all men, I'm going to try :)

4:54 kjeldahl: robermann: Prepare for unicorn land!

4:56 robermann: :)

5:42 kjeldahl: now I'm in the unicorn land!

5:43 michaelr525: about this script http://pastie.org/2598687

5:43 I had to remove the load-path stuff

5:44 and copy highlight-parentheses.el into d:/mannai/ClojureBox/emacs/EmacsW32/lisp/

5:44 (clojurebox laod it: "Adding d:/mannai/ClojureBox/emacs/EmacsW32/lisp/ to load-path")

5:45 BTW michaelr525 , 'load-path can also load single files, aside from directories ?

6:09 I tried also http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/RainbowDelimiters, now I'm using that

6:10 cark: robermann: isn't it slowing down your emacs too much ?

6:11 robermann: mmm no

6:11 I compiled it: M-x byte-compile-file <location of rainbow-delimiters.el>

6:11 cark: cool

6:11 i might try that some day

6:11 robermann: yes, nice setup instructions: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/RainbowDelimiters#toc2

6:12 they work for me too, a newbie on Emacs

6:13 cark: i was just worried about performance

6:13 it's already slow enough as it is =P

6:14 robermann: well, as for now it is the best IDE for clojure (holy war starts.. :D )

6:14 IMHO (stop war)

6:14 cark: agreed

6:27 srid: can I make 'cake deps' automatically reload swank?

6:27 (so there is no need to reconnect from emacs)

6:38 miclorb_: hrm... can you use multi methods as a way to dispatch based on literal values?

6:38 (thinking like erlang def's and matching)

6:41 clgv: miclorb_: well, you can dispatch via a custom function

6:41 miclorb_: clgv: oh?

6:42 I am dealing with command line args (ie single word - whihc kinda matches up with function name)

6:52 clgv: miclorb_: can you give an example for what you want to do?

6:53 miclorb_: clgv: hrm.. it is as simple as a string (from user) "foo" - to dispatch to a function (defn foo ...)

6:53 cemerick: kzar: FYI, a new clutch 0.2.5-SNAPSHOT has been pushed that should resolve the issue you hit yesterday

6:53 kzar: cemerick: Awesome, thanks :)

6:53 miclorb_: I thought I should learn multimethods (reading about them - I still don't get what they are about - so it was a stab)

6:53 cemerick: kzar: let me know if it works or not; I'd like to do a 0.2.5 release today or tomorrow if possible

6:54 kzar: cemerick: How do I make sure lein re-downloads it?

6:54 clgv: miclorb_: ok then have a look at multimethod examples first ;)

6:54 cemerick: kzar: just `lein deps` should do it — I think it always checks for new snapshots

6:55 miclorb_: clgv: - it looks close, will play a bit more, my spider sense tells me they are pretty cool

7:01 TallAdam: hi guys - any reason that (class (Integer/parseInt "1")) returns java.lang.Long in Clojure 1.3

7:02 cemerick: TallAdam: because starting in 1.3, Clojure boxes all primitive integers as Long, and all primitive decimals as Double.

7:02 TallAdam: cemerick: is that for performance reasons?

7:03 cemerick: TallAdam: Mostly, it simplifies the numerics model in Clojure-land.

7:03 TallAdam: cemerick: thanks for that

7:04 cemerick: Well, I was going to explain further, but…

7:04 robermann: explain explain please

7:04 :)

7:05 zoldar: yes, we're all ears

7:05 robermann: I read the 1.3 changelog, but this news surprise me

7:06 cemerick: robermann: you have to keep going, and read the links linked in the changelog: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.txt#L75 :-)

7:07 Basically, if you have a primitive value somewhere (bound in a let form, for example), then Clojure will leave it alone (so you can pass it to e.g. Java methods without a problem), but if you use it as an argument to a Clojure function that is not declared to accept primitive values, then the value will be boxed to Long or Double prior to being passed.

7:09 You can declare functions to accept and return primitive longs and doubles though, so your primitive int (or short or float, etc) will be coerced to a long or double before being passed to such a function.

7:11 The long and short of it is that Clojure math always uses long and double and Big* (when necessary). If you want an int or short or float, then you either need to create it explicitly, or if it's an interop situation, use the coercion hints.

7:14 kzar: cemerick: I found and deleted my local copy of the jar to force it to downloaf and yep it's working now. It does give me a bunch of warnings when I first load clutch though: http://paste.lisp.org/display/124879#2

7:15 cemerick: kzar: That's expected — those are caused by libraries clutch depends upon. None of those vars should ever be rebound, though (I've never hit a code path that causes an issue).

7:15 Thanks for verifying the new build fixes that problem for you. :-)

7:15 FYI, I'm hoping to get an 0.3.0 release out that will replace the libraries that cause those warnings.

7:15 s/out/out soon

7:15 lazybot: <cemerick> FYI, I'm hoping to get an 0.3.0 release out soon that will replace the libraries that cause those warnings.

7:16 Zolrath: I'm trying out Pinot and the pinor.dom library doesn't seem to actually get provided. The other pinot libraries work but even the example code won't compile as it tries to use pinot.dom

7:20 kzar: cemerick: Gotya OK

7:27 Zolrath: Hm maybe the version on clojars isn't compiled properly, that file is missing from the .jar

7:33 michaelr525: sleepy afternoon

8:27 manutter: lovely, my machine was compromised by the drive-by download malware someone installed on mysql.com yesterday. Guess I know how the rest of my day is going to go.

8:33 michaelr525: manutter: the rest is going to be great!

9:24 crazyFox: hi everyone. i'm installing emacs and the emacs-starter-kit from technomancy. Now i'm trying to download the emacs 24 sources. When using https://github.com/emacsmirror/emacs/zipball/master the download file is named emacsmirror-emacs-EMACS_23_3-8876-g6cda373.zip. Meaning version 23. How can i get version 24?

9:25 ok. never mind. the file name is misleading. it DOES contain version 24. tss...

9:29 robermann: thanks to you :) I even didn't know there was such a "starter kit"

9:44 Blafasel: Hmm.. I find myself in need of a 'yield' of some sorts. Probably doing it wrong again.

9:46 Menthy: In clojure.set there's a join fn, is there any support for other joins than natural (left, right, cross, outer?)

9:57 joegallo: you can do a cartesian product with for, i suppose

9:57 clgv: Blafasel: what do you mean`

9:58 fdaoud: Blafasel: as in call the function you were passed as arg? Just call it :)

9:58 as in (defn something [passed-in-fn] (if true (passed-in-fn) "or else"))

9:59 duck1123: Is there any official guide as to when you're supposed to use vectors and when you use lists within a ns form?

9:59 kzar: Blafasel: Yield runs the given block, in Clojure you would just pass a function as a parameter and then call it

9:59 Blafasel: You could even call the parameter yield if you wanted

9:59 neotyk: Good morning everyone

10:00 fdaoud: duck1123: my understanding is that you could use lists, just that vectors look nicer

10:00 Blafasel: yield as in C#/F# lazily generating values. Trying to wrap my head around lazy-cat right now..

10:00 neotyk: can you help us spreading word about clj meetup? https://twitter.com/#!/amsclj/status/118684755804946432

10:01 clgv: Blafasel: lazy-seq could be what you are looking for

10:02 kzar: Blafasel: Sorry I thought you meant in the Ruby sense

10:02 clgv: duck1123: there is the suggestions to use vectors where all contained elements are equal and to use lists where the first element is special. like in (:use (clojure set zip)) and (:use [clojure.set :only [f1 f2]])

10:03 Blafasel: clgv: Hmm.. Looking for both ~yield~ (generate and return one value) and ~yield!~ (lazily consume/concat a list). The latter seems to be lazy-cat? Need to look at lazy-seq

10:04 clgv: Blafasel: lazy-seq is used to build a lazy sequence via a recursive description

10:05 Blafasel: Okay. Learning :)

10:10 shep-home: technomancy: sorry, was asleep :-)

10:11 do you mean, where did I get clojure-mode? or where dif I get the error? or ... ?

10:11 did*

10:14 crazyFox: roberman: ur welcome ^^ - i also just found it rather by coincidence. i generally find all the various places with clojure ressources of some sort confusing...

10:22 fdaoud: kzar: me too

10:35 robermann: BTW: does anyone know why a 4clojure execise is scored as "easy" rather than "medium"? For example, it's quite funny to see that "Cartesian Product" (http://4clojure.com/problem/90) is as easy as Pascal's Triangle (http://4clojure.com/problem/97)

11:14 timvisher: hey all

11:14 anyone know what happened to clojure-jack-in in emacs 24?

11:14 well, emacs HEAD?

11:15 specifically, it used to use locate-dominating-file but now it appears not to

11:28 TimMc: robermann: Cartesian Product being, in your view, harder or easier?

11:29 robermann: very easier

11:29 TimMc: ok

11:30 robermann: just one-line

11:30 TimMc: yeah

11:31 robermann: the other, well, I had to think about it :)

11:33 TimMc: robermann: OK, yeah -- Pascal's Triangle involves actually using recursion (or doing some math!)

11:33 I suppose it depends on where the cut-off between Easy and Medium is.

11:35 nkoza: mm.. kilim + clojure will make a better erlang than erlang

11:37 TimMc: robermann: amalloy solved it with math, I solved it with recursion.

11:38 robermann: I used recursion, too

11:50 see you people, bye

11:58 technomancy: shep-home: I mean where did you get clojure-mode

12:08 pyr: ibdknox: around ?

12:25 shep-home: technomancy: package.el (says version 1.10.0)

12:33 I just updated to 1.11.1 (but package still lists the old version as obsolete)

12:42 but the same issue exists

12:52 I /do/ have the getRoot / getRawRoot hack added manually for clojure 1.3

12:53 technomancy: did it happen before you upgraded clojure-test-mode?

12:55 shep-home: technomancy: sorry I was confusing... I've had the same version of -test-mode throughout. I did update -mode, but that was *after* the problem popped up.

12:56 I swear that the "change" that caused it was just writing more code :-)

12:58 kzar: Can exceptions inside futures stall them? So that we're waiting for this thread to come back but it just never will

13:09 technomancy: derefing should re-throw the in-future exception

13:09 ,@(future (/ 1 0))

13:09 clojurebot: #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero>

13:12 kzar: technomancy: Would there be any ways that the exception wouldn't be re-thrown?

13:13 wink: anyone got a sample project on github or whatever where I can have a look regarding test layout (which files where, etc)

13:14 manutter: wink: you mean just how the test dirs are set up and stuff?

13:15 joegallo: lein new this-is-an-example

13:15 :)

13:15 wink: hmm, yeah

13:17 manutter: Pick almost any of the clojure tools at clojure-toolbox and look at their github repos, should be a good guide

13:17 I'm partial to midje testing myself

13:17 joegallo: here's one that's built up on that a bit: https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire

13:17 wink: thanks

13:17 kzar: technomancy: (We're working on this, https://github.com/marktriggs/xml-picker-seq/blob/master/src/xml_picker_seq/core.clj and when I messed up the extract-fn the thread hung forever with no exception. I think Mark's going to figure it out but it just made me wonder.)

13:17 manutter: I was geeking out last night: figured out how to integrate midje testing with slingshot exception handling

13:17 kzar: gotta run anyway

13:18 manutter: I'm like "Dang, it's this easy? Seriously?"

13:19 wink: think I'm switchin languages too fast lately. I don't even have clojure on this machine...

13:20 plus I had written tests already. counterclockwise just ignored the test dir. doh

13:28 neotyk: Has anyone used clache successfully ?

13:28 I'm having problems getting FIFOCache to work

13:29 I initialize it with: (FIFOCache. {} [] 100)

13:29 shep-home: technomancy: could I be causing myself problems by trying to use clojure 1.3.0 when swank-clojure pulls in 1.2.1?

13:30 neotyk: and get 'Can't pop empty vector' in clache.clj:62

13:34 technomancy: shep-home: it should be ok; swank pulls 1.2 only for standalone swank sessions outside a project

13:36 neotyk: now it works: (FIFOCache. {} clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 100)

13:37 shep-home: technomancy: sure enough, I moved the version down and still see the same issue

13:37 technomancy: shep-home: something about process filter arguments?

13:41 shep-home: technomancy: error in process filter: Wrong number of arguments: nil, 11

13:44 pyr: getting the gist of cljs and pinot

13:44 cool stuff

13:47 dnolen: pyr: yes it is.

13:49 pyr: i had feared i would be trapped in google closure layout hell

13:51 dnolen: pyr: nah, it seems so far that google closure is good about providing functionality a la carte.

13:51 pyr: yep, was able to reintegrate my previous layout quite easily

13:52 duck1123: So with pinot, can you define your view once and use it in both places?

13:52 pyr: you can do that

13:52 although

13:52 i just do client-side hiccup now

13:52 duck1123: I converted all of my views to soy, but haven't used them from js yet

13:53 so you're sending hiccup over the wire?

13:53 ibdknox: you *could* send hiccup over the wire

13:53 but you don't need to

13:53 it depends on how you organize your web app

13:54 duck1123: oh, I get it. You're doing all your generation client side, right?

13:56 pyr: ibdknox: does my dom/replace make sense ?

13:56 ibdknox: pyr: it does, though it needs to be a bit more complicated, sadly

13:56 pyr: take for instance, being in the middle of a list

13:57 pyr: ah, yeah

13:57 it would not retain the position

13:57 i use it for changing "pages"

13:57 my pinot fork now has dom/toggle-class too

13:58 ibdknox: pyr: yeah, I need to add those functions too :)

13:58 pyr: useful for modals, menus, stuff like that

13:58 ibdknox: pyr: definitely

13:58 dnolen: did I miss any discussion on how we could make a file readable as both clj and cljs?

13:59 that would solve duck1123 issue completely

13:59 you could just use the same file with partials in it in both places

14:01 duck1123: That would be nice

14:02 Actually, using Closure Templates hasn't been that bad. It's a lot slower to type, but easier to just move things around

14:02 ibdknox: another nice solution would be to wrap mustache.js

14:03 and use stencil on the server

14:03 duck1123: It's a lot better now that I'm using lein. Under maven I had to re-process the resources and re-eval the template ns

14:03 ibdknox: then you can just use mustache templates both client-side and server side

14:03 duck1123: good to hear you're using lein :)

14:04 duck1123: most of the things that were keeping me on maven have been fixed, and I got sick of not being able to use the cool plugins

14:05 dnolen: ibdknox: I haven't heard any progress on that front. Anything interesting would require changes to Clojure.

14:06 ibdknox: dnolen: why not just meta-data in the ns decl of .clj files?

14:06 dnolen: then the cljs compiler reads any .clj that has that meta in it

14:08 duck1123: You would have to be very careful. It would be too easy to make a change that doesn't work in one or the other.

14:08 ibdknox: that's true regardless of the solution

14:08 shep-home: technomancy: Created a new project with lein, it doesn't have the same problem

14:08 so it must be something about my code

14:09 time to binary-comment things out :-)

14:11 amalloy: TimMc: i've also solved it with lazy seqs; i have a gist somewhere

14:12 https://gist.github.com/1140970

14:14 ibdknox: amalloy: pascal's triangle I assume?

14:14 amalloy: ibdknox: quite a coincidental output if not

14:14 ibdknox: haha

14:15 bah, should've looked at the name of the file :-p

14:15 neat solution

14:16 amalloy: yeah, it was kinda neat not to have to treat the outer edges specially, just shove some imaginary 0s in there

14:16 shep-home: technomancy: narrowed down the cause

14:16 https://gist.github.com/1245810

14:16 well, a reproducible case

14:16 who knows why it's really wrong :-)

14:17 dnolen: nice, http://scriptstoprograms.wordpress.com/2011/09/27/javascript-shared-state/

14:17 technomancy: shep-home: cool; can you open an issue on clojure-test-mode?

14:18 shep-home: technomancy: sure thing, it is the same git repo, as clojure-mode, right?

14:18 technomancy: right

14:21 shep-home: technomancy: done

14:21 thanks :-)

14:22 technomancy: great

14:33 TimMc: amalloy: Nice use of "for partition" in there.

14:34 * amalloy 3 (for) and (partition n 1)

14:34 TimMc: I also used the imaginary zeros, but mapped + across the two colls.

14:34 amalloy: *nod*

14:35 TimMc: Three? I thought you less than three.

14:36 amalloy: er

14:36 so did i

14:41 wink: back to testing, I've looked a bit and didn't really find any uptodate info on code coverage. anyone got some pointers? :) (sorry if I'm being annoying)

14:41 technomancy: ~radagast

14:41 clojurebot: I don't understand.

14:42 technomancy: ~radagast is a simplistic test coverage tool: https://github.com/seajure/radagast/

14:42 clojurebot: Ok.

14:42 wink: thanks

14:42 technomancy: it's not particularly good

14:44 wink: my code's most probably worse :)

14:45 seanm_: how do I find the name/artifact/version for :dependencies in leiningen? I'm trying to get javax.xml so I can use XPath

14:45 amalloy: any package starting with "java" is already in the jre

14:46 hiredman: not so for javax

14:46 seanm_: yeah not for javax =)

14:46 amalloy: hiredman: really? i guess it's been too long since i did that

14:47 hiredman: lein uses [groupid/artifactid "version"] which you can get from the maven info

14:47 amalloy: eg, javax.swing *is* in the jre; i thought the javax packages were "standard extensions" or something

14:47 hiredman: javaxmail is not

14:48 seanm_: hiredman: thanks!! It's working now

14:48 joegallo: many javax packages are available in the jre by default

14:49 in those situations, the javax is an indication that it was at one time not available by default, but was later included (without changing the package, though)

14:49 TimMc: It may depend on whether you have JRE or JDK, I think.

14:50 jeremyheiler: Much of the javax packages are in Java EE

14:50 Which is completely separate from the JDK/JRE

14:51 http://java.sun.com/javaee/6/docs/api/

14:53 joegallo: in this case, though, javax.xml is available in the jre (at least, it is in version 6, for which i'm looking at the classes in rt.jar)

14:54 amalloy: they got added in 1.4, i think. kinda weird that you could have an environment without them

14:56 jeremyheiler: seanm_: The javax.xml.xpath package is in the JRE

14:56 foodoo: how can I create a string from a list of chars using only the functions in clojure.core? (4clojure)

14:56 jeremyheiler: amalloy: it makes sense to keep the EE stuff separate, as not all environments need JPA, mail, servlets, etc.

14:57 You can even pick and choose what parts of EE you need

14:57 tsdh: Is it intended that clojure allows symbols containing whitespace?

14:57 ##(symbol "faa bar")

14:57 lazybot: ⇒ faa bar

14:57 tsdh: ##(type (symbol "faa bar"))

14:57 lazybot: ⇒ clojure.lang.Symbol

14:57 hiredman: foodoo: why use 4clojure at all if you are not going to figure it out?

14:57 technomancy: tsdh: I think it's intentional

14:58 foodoo: hiredman: I suppose there is some built-in function for that. But I can't seem to find it

14:58 technomancy: there was an open issue for it for a while, I had a patch that got rejected.

14:59 foodoo: hiredman: and I suppose that's really not part of the main challenge. But I could be wrong

14:59 tsdh: technomancy: I know that CL does (|foo bar|), but I don't see a way to use such a symbol in, say, def...

14:59 amalloy: tsdh: macros would work. but don't :P

15:00 tsdh: btw, the print representation is ("foo bar") here at my 1.3 repl...

15:00 So there's no way for the reader to distinguish a symbol with whitespace from a list with a string...

15:00 foodoo: hiredman: https://www.4clojure.com/problem/102 dropping the - and making a character uppercase is already done. Now I need to glue the pieces together

15:02 TimMc: foodoo: How did you get to problem 102 without first encountering a whole bunch of problems that tell you how to glue chars together into a string?

15:02 tsdh: amalloy: Yeah, I don't. :-)

15:03 * fdaoud grimaces

15:03 foodoo: TimMc: I'm not sure if I really did them in order. I remember one time resorting to (. foo toString) but this seem to work this time

15:04 I mean it doesn't seem to work this time

15:04 technomancy: ,(let [x (bean [])] (prn (class x)) (:foo x))

15:04 clojurebot: clojure.core.proxy$clojure.lang.APersistentMap$0

15:04 #<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>

15:04 technomancy: ...!

15:04 fdaoud: foodoo: why not just (str foo)

15:05 ibdknox: fdaoud: you mean (apply str foo)

15:05 TimMc: well, there's the answer

15:05 fdaoud: ibdknox: yes, you're right, to concat.. I meant instead of (. foo toString)

15:05 amalloy: ~source bean

15:06 fdaoud: ,(apply str [\b \o \n \j \o \u \r])

15:06 clojurebot: "bonjour"

15:06 foodoo: fdaoud: (= "foobar" (str (concat "foo" "bar"))); is false

15:06 (using 1.3 if that matters)

15:06 TimMc: foodoo: concat takes colls

15:06 ,(concat "foo" "bar")

15:06 clojurebot: (\f \o \o \b \a ...)

15:07 TimMc: Erm, I guess it takes seq-ables.

15:07 ibdknox: yeah

15:07 ~source concat

15:07 fdaoud: ,(apply str (concat "foo" "bar"))

15:07 clojurebot: "foobar"

15:07 TimMc: ,(str "foo" "bar")

15:07 clojurebot: "foobar"

15:07 foodoo: thank you all :)

15:08 TimMc: ,(ancestors (class {}))

15:08 clojurebot: #{java.util.concurrent.Callable clojure.lang.Counted clojure.lang.IObj clojure.lang.IPersistentMap java.util.Map ...}

15:08 tsdh: Can't I test if a fns :pre fails? (is (thrown? AssertionError (foo "bad input"))) errors with an AssertionError...

15:08 TimMc: &(ancestors (class {}))

15:08 lazybot: ⇒ #{clojure.lang.IObj :clout.core/request clojure.lang.AFn clojure.lang.IFn clojure.lang.IMeta java.io.Serializable clojure.lang.IPersistentMap clojure.lang.Counted clojure.lang.MapEquivalence java.lang.Runnable java.lang.Object java.util.concurrent.Callable clojure.... https://gist.github.com/1245930

15:12 pyr: ibdknox: i have a nicer alternative

15:12 ibdknox: to replace

15:13 ibdknox: pyr: oh?

15:14 fwiw, I think replace should exist no matter what

15:19 pcavs: what's the way to use rest args in a shorthand anonymous function? like #(apply + %&) but %& doesn't work...

15:19 bhenry: but %& does work...

15:19 pcavs: or nvm, it does =\

15:20 ibdknox: lol

15:20 amalloy: ...have you actually tried %&?

15:20 pcavs: <— stupid

15:20 pyr: ibdknox: let me prepare a gist

15:20 pcavs: thank you thank you, I'm hear all week, try the lamb

15:20 ibdknox: pyr: okidoke

15:20 pyr: https://gist.github.com/1245966

15:21 (I love emacs gist-mode!)

15:21 it's a different approach

15:21 ibdknox: pyr: yeah, that's basically the same as JQuery's html()

15:21 pyr: yup

15:22 but it doesn't use innerHTML (so no wiping out of the event binding tree)

15:22 TimMc: pcavs: I bet you used &% by accident. I keep typoing it.

15:22 pcavs: TimMc: I think the fact I'm dumb is a simpler more elegant explanation

15:22 ibdknox: pyr: mhm

15:22 TimMc: >_<

15:22 ibdknox: lol

15:23 tsdh: Ah, stupid me. The assertion error was in another test...

15:23 hugod: pyr: which gist mode?

15:23 pyr: https://github.com/defunkt/gist.el

15:23 hugod: thanks

15:23 pyr: you get gist-region and gist-buffer

15:24 with private alternatives

15:24 very useful

15:24 ibdknox: off to lunch

15:24 amalloy: yep. gist.el: useful enough to get one of my C-c bindings

15:26 Blafasel: *sigh* "java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Parameter declaration letfn should be a vector (utils.clj:8)" .. I'm hooked but the error messages are confusing me all the time

15:28 amalloy: Blafasel: you forgot the arglists to a function

15:28 (defn foo (letfn ...)) instead of (defn foo [x y] (letfn...))

15:30 Blafasel: It's a file with 11 lines. I - can't see it. I'm already in the 'blindly shuffle things around' mode, now I get 'Parameter declaration let should be a vector' - and I know I had that problem in the past, passing a list or forgetting it. But now? Don't see it.

15:30 And especially not in the line mentioned..

15:30 TimMc: The error *should* say, "expected a vector, found symbol 'letfn"

15:30 amalloy: TimMc: that's not accurate though

15:30 TimMc: +param decl

15:30 amalloy: "expected a vector, found list beginning with symbol letfn"

15:30 TimMc: ah, right

15:31 Blafasel: Ah.. Got that. Now I just need to make lazy-seq happy..

15:31 hiredman: amalloy: well (fn [] ...) and (fn ([] ...)) are both legal

15:32 scode: Is the order preservation of literal maps co-incidental or a documented guarantee?

15:32 amalloy: ah, interesting point. i hadn't thought of it from that perspective

15:32 hiredman: scode: implementation detail for literal maps with less than N entries where N maybe 8 right now

15:32 Blafasel: I'm trying something like (letfn [(foo [args]) ...... (lazy-seq (cons something (foo newargs))]) and foo cannot be resolved. Stupid Ben?

15:33 scode: hiredman: Thanks!

15:34 amalloy: hiredman: i think it's 10

15:34 Blafasel: On a sidenote: Thanks for this (patient, friendly) place to get started.. Helps a lot to lurk around here or cry for help, occasionally.

15:34 Vinzent: Blafasel, should it be (letfn [(foo [args] ...... ...)?

15:35 Blafasel: Vinzent: Ah. It is. My bad.

15:36 Vinzent: Method, couple things, branch to a) recur or b) (lazy-seq (cons computedThingy callToSelfHere))

15:37 I hope that makes sense...

15:41 dans: is everyone who uses vim still using vimclojure or is there a better option?

15:42 foodoo: dans: I'm still using vimclojure. But the REPL ist broken for 1.3

15:42 dans: ok foodoo

15:58 babilen: dans: same here (although I am still on 1.2)

15:59 dans: You might want to take a look at slimv though (or at least use its paredit implementation in vimclojure)

15:59 elderling: ,(clojure-version)

15:59 clojurebot: "1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT"

16:02 dans: babilen, thanks

16:02 actually im doing just that, installing both with vundle

16:03 for some reason :set ft? still returns filetype= (not recognising clj files) so syntax highlighting isnt working

16:06 Blkt: good evening everyone

16:11 babilen: dans: Same setup here, but ft works for me. (cf. https://github.com/babilen/dotfiles/blob/master/vim/vimrc)

16:14 tsdh: Is there something that helps writing complex argument destructuring for macros like defmacro itself?

16:14 I mean, where you have optional docstrings, option maps, plus varargs parameters...

16:16 srid: I add `:exclusions [clojure.contrib]` to project.cl, then `rm -rf lib classes build`, but `lein deps` will still fetch clojure-contrib jar in lib/. why?

16:16 dnolen: tsdh: no but it's come up before and other people are interested in it. Just need someone to actually do the work.

16:16 amalloy: clojure.contrib is not clojure-contrib?

16:17 chouser: amalloy: hey, you around? I have a proposition for you.

16:17 amalloy: well, i just betrayed my presence, i guess

16:17 tsdh: dnolen: Ok, thanks.

16:18 chouser: oh, indeed. so, what if 4clojure used a different golf scoring method?

16:18 khaliG: i've got some code generating some html - http://paste.lisp.org/display/124909 - and i need to run a counter through the loop for setting up the rows and columns of a table. What's the best way to achieve that?

16:19 amalloy: chouser: counting number of forms, i bet?

16:19 chouser: yessir. http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/0ff2be94aef767dd

16:20 granted: any kind of golf will have goals that diverge from what you use when writing "real code"

16:21 amalloy: *nod* there are two issues. one is that it's (slightly) harder to educate users about how this works. the other is that, of course, we already have one scoring method, and taking it away will annoy people

16:21 chouser: but if golf is to have any real value at all, it would be to encourage learning the target platform.

16:21 amalloy: when i built the charts, i actually wanted to have "count characters" and "count forms" scores separate, both on the graph

16:21 khaliG: all i can think of atm is using a closure which i call each time to get a new value (probably by calling swap! atm inc) - any other ideas?

16:21 chouser: amalloy: what would be fantastic!

16:22 of course then you'd want to be able to submit two (or more) solutions. :-)

16:22 hiredman: real value?

16:22 of golf?

16:22 chouser: hiredman: right. for learning.

16:22 hiredman: sure

16:22 *eyeroll*

16:22 chouser: :-P

16:22 amalloy: chouser: have you played spacechem? i wanted to mimic their charts exactly, since they look great and score you on multiple axes

16:23 chouser: amalloy: no, I haven't.

16:23 amalloy: i put up a screenshot somewhere but sadly it's not in my logs at work and i can't produce another one

16:23 but the frontend stuff - making a pretty graph with incanter, figuring out how to work it into the page - was just too much for me

16:24 chouser: amalloy: ok

16:24 amalloy: i'd love to accept a patch, though, from any interested parties, such as yourself

16:25 Blafasel: Any https://gist.github.com/1246123 - some feedback for improvements of non-idiomatic usage? This is a more or less straight port from F#. I understand that this is the nth function to do this, but - I'm just fooling around/exploring and just using contrib is boring.

16:27 amalloy: chouser: aha, of course someone else has put up a screenshot already. http://downwithshooters.blogspot.com/2011/05/not-chemistry-i-remember.html

16:28 Blafasel: this is mis-indented

16:29 newTable should be new-table

16:29 dans: hmm everything works fine if i :set ft=clojure, i wonder why it doesnt automatically recognise .clj

16:29 amalloy: (assoc m k (conj (get m k) v)) is just (update-in m [k] conj v)

16:31 rata_: hi

16:31 Blafasel: amalloy: indentation is something I have to learn from scratch for lisps, I guess. Any guides, specific remarks? (and thanks for the rest!)

16:32 terom: Blafasel: I believe the docstring should be before (empty) argument vector.

16:33 amalloy: Blafasel: https://gist.github.com/1246161 is a stylistic rewrite

16:34 i added a number of newlines you might not agree with, but i think it helps to clarify what goes with what

16:34 Blafasel: I've no trouble with the formatting. In fact, I've no clue how to format these things yet.

16:34 just read about update-in: Didn't know that at all. And you're right of course, exactly what I do there.

16:35 terom: Thanks! He fixed that as well :)

16:36 shep-home: Blafasel: If you find a good reference on idiomaticness, I'd love to see it :-)

16:36 In a protocol, can you declare a method twice, with different arguments?

16:36 Blafasel: shep-home: Heh. Guess this channel is as close as I could get to anything clojure so far, so...

16:37 technomancy: ~style guide?

16:37 clojurebot: style is http://paste.lisp.org/display/81021

16:37 technomancy: what

16:37 amalloy: $google mumble scheme style

16:37 lazybot: [Riastradh's Lisp Style Rules - mumble.net main page] http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt

16:37 technomancy: there we go

16:38 Blafasel: ^^

16:38 shep-home: technomancy: no big differences for Clojure-specific whatnot?

16:38 technomancy: not much

16:39 clojurebot: why do we not place losing parens on their own line is <reply> because the parentheses grow lonely if their closing brackets are all kept separated and segregated.

16:39 clojurebot: Alles klar

16:40 Blafasel: Funny response, clojurebot..

16:40 ibdknox_: he's half German

16:40 Blafasel: technomancy: amalloy: Thanks a lot! Reading material :)

16:40 ibdknox_: ;)

16:41 technomancy: and half gaelic, and half greek, and half...

16:41 shep-home: technomancy: you lost your 'c' in "closing"

16:43 Blafasel: Looking at that gist I'm more confused than before, I guess, regarding indentation.. But maybe that link will provide some insights. Some things that are on the same ~depth~ for me are now using different indentation.

16:44 Weird. New.

16:50 srid: duck1123: i noticed that you ported aleph to clojure 1.3; may I ask how you would specify your fork as a lein dependency?

16:53 Blafasel: Is there any way to get a diff between gists? That webinterface is confusing...

16:54 The new version doesn't work, 'nth not supported on this type: Integer'. No line information, nth is not (directly) part of the code -> Hard.

16:54 amalloy: Blafasel: sorry, i messed up the update-in

16:54 should be [key], not key

16:55 Blafasel: Ahhh.. Makes sense now.

16:55 Thanks

16:55 amalloy: you would get line information if you put this into a file and loaded it; the only reason you don't is you typed it into the repl

16:56 and gist's styling isn't always perfect; if you copy this to a source file of some kind you should see that it's never the case that two things on the same depth have different indentation

16:56 Blafasel: Ah, ok. Loaded a file into a repl, but probably the tool in use just pipes text, 'pastes' or something

16:58 I copied the raw version. I especially don't get the indentation around the (lazy-seq) call, the cons below is indented 'funny', that is exactly one space. Most things are aligned to a 2 space boundary?

16:59 Not sure if that's a glitch (manually on your side, with the gist thing) or correct. Since I'm trying to learn I want to confirm that this is something I should get used to :)

17:01 cfa: hey guys -- quick swank-clojure question: if i add a dependency to project.clj and run lein deps, i there any way of continuing work in my existing repl or do i need to kill swank and clojure-jack-in again?

17:01 (apologies if i'm missing something really obvious here)

17:01 technomancy: cfa: currently no way to do that

17:01 just M-x clojure-jack-in again

17:01 cfa: will clojure-jack-in safely kill off the old swank? (i've been manually killing the swank buffer so far)

17:02 technomancy: it will if you have the latest version

17:02 cfa: i believe i do; installed from the official instructions last week

17:02 amalloy: Blafasel: that's correct

17:02 usually if you put a newline immediately after the function/macro/operator, you indent the next form by only once space

17:03 and that's how emacs does it automatically, of course

17:03 Blafasel: Heh..

17:03 Okay, thanks for the patience. No, emacs is not an option right now :)

17:10 mabes: arg.. marmalade is down... it would appear that marmalade is written in node.js using mongodb... that is what I gather from the error I just got

17:11 technomancy: marmalade is ... not the most stable

17:11 * technomancy curses node.js and mongodb in parallel

17:12 mabes: I was able to even infer the guy's github name from the stacktrace which led me right to the code :) https://github.com/nex3/marmalade

17:12 I don't think I'll try and fix it though

17:12 cfa: technomancy: thanks

17:13 hmm, the second time i did this: "error in process filter: Symbol's value as variable is void: java\.lang\.RuntimeException:"

17:13 technomancy: cfa: sounds like an old version of clojure-mode

17:14 cfa: hmm, let me check how i fetched it

17:14 technomancy: cfa: if you reinstall without updating the package list you will pull in old versions

17:14 M-x package-refresh-contents; analogous to apt-get update

17:14 cfa: i might have forgotten to do that

17:14 currently running 1.10.0

17:15 technomancy: 1.11.1 is the latest

17:16 cfa: right, fetched

17:18 is it safe to M-x unload-feature?

17:18 technomancy: great question; I've never tried that

17:18 or even heard of it, actually =)

17:19 it's probably safe

17:19 cfa: :) trying now

17:19 i explicitly called package-load-all-descriptors and -archive-contents

17:19 so hopefully the new version will get picked up

17:20 also, for reference: i've unloaded -autoloads too

17:22 Blkt: good night everyone

17:22 cfa: hmm

17:22 not only did that not work; starting a fresh emacs is still pulling in 1.10 (even though 1.11 is downloaded)

17:23 oh, wait

17:23 clojure-mode-version returns "1.10.0" in v1.11 :/

17:23 technomancy: cfa: oh no; oops!

17:24 cfa: now i'm very confused

17:24 well, might as well try clojure-jack-in again

17:24 technomancy: M-x package-list-packages is the one you should trust

17:25 cfa: same error when i try to jack in, but who knows which version i'm using :)

17:25 okay -- the elpa dir is definitely 1.11

17:25 perhaps i should just restart emacs

17:27 technomancy: just reloading the defun for clojure-jack-in would do it

17:29 I wonder if the byte-compilation isn't overriding the old version that's already loaded

17:32 cfa: technomancy: so 1.11 will re-use the old repl unlike 1.10, right?

17:33 duck1123: srid: you still around? I just noticed your question

17:34 technomancy: cfa: there's still a bug where sometimes it opens *slime-repl nil* that I haven't tracked down yet

17:34 duck1123: My fork isn't on clojars, but I push a copy to my repository at build.jiksnu.com

17:35 cfa: technomancy: ah okay. well, thanks for the help.

17:47 carllerche: Is there a way to apply a java static function that takes varargs to a vector?

17:47 amalloy: dump the vector into an array

17:49 Clojurific: Is anyone here actively contributing to the Leiningen project?

17:50 technomancy: Clojurific: sure

17:50 amalloy: technomancy claims to be, but he's a tricky one

17:50 technomancy: clojurebot: are all cretans liars?

17:50 Clojurific: Cool :] technomancy, what are your future plans for Lein?

17:50 clojurebot: Cool story bro.

17:51 technomancy: Clojurific: here's a thread discussing the plans for 2.0: http://groups.google.com/group/leiningen/browse_thread/thread/1223cd092b83f007

17:52 cfa: night all

17:52 technomancy: there are a few things I'd like to add to the 1.6 series, but they are pretty boring (see TODO.org on the 1.x branch)

17:53 Clojurific: Very nice

17:53 No, boring is very necessary sometimes

17:53 It's an awesome tool; thank you for all your work

17:54 technomancy: great; glad it's helpful

17:55 gfredericks: Let's say I have a function that returns a canonical version of an object. And it's expensive. So if it gets called with an arg that has already been canonicalized, I'd prefer it not go through all the computation to return the same object. My question is: Is this use case an idiomatic use for metadata? (i.e., tag the return objects with {::canonized true} and check the args for it). Or unidiomatic?

17:55 I've nearly never used custom metadata.

17:55 dnolen: gfredericks: sounds like a use case for memoization

17:55 ,(doc memoize)

17:55 clojurebot: "([f]); Returns a memoized version of a referentially transparent function. The memoized version of the function keeps a cache of the mapping from arguments to results and, when calls with the same arguments are repeated often, has higher performance at the expense of higher memory use."

17:56 gfredericks: dnolen: I know about memoization. What if I don't want to worry about the memoization map hogging the memory?

17:56 dnolen: gfredericks: hook up your own memoize to unk

17:56 https://github.com/fogus/unk

17:57 cark: btw, is there a memoization like function that would only remember one set of arguments and only one result value ?

17:57 gfredericks: dnolen: so you think metadata is such a bad idea that using an entire library is better?

17:57 I don't mean that critically, I'm just trying to figure out what metadata is good for

17:58 kharrington: cark: memoize on the clojure.org/atoms page with an if statement?

17:59 amalloy: gfredericks: i dunno, seems like a reasonable case for metadata. i don't think memoization is a great choice

17:59 cark: yes i guess that's an easy one, just wanted to make sure it's not already in the bow

17:59 dnolen: gfredericks: since I don't know the details of your problem I can't say which approach is better. But it sounds like memoization to me.

17:59 technomancy: cark: unk can do that with fifo of depth 1

17:59 cark: box*

18:00 dnolen: gfredericks: metadata is cool, though I've found it most powerful in conjunction w/ macros.

18:00 amalloy: eg, if the canonical form of 7 is 8 (nearest power of 2, say), then you'll compute it once for 7. if you then try to canonicalize that again, you'll have to do it over because 8 isn't in the memo cache

18:00 gfredericks: amalloy: ah hah! excellent point :)

18:00 dnolen wants to double my computation :)

18:00 technomancy: gfredericks: it's not always obvious what operations persist metadata, so if you do a bit of transformation to your object it may or may not consider itself still canonical.

18:00 amalloy: ie, memoization doesn't do (all of) what you want, because you have special knowledge about what (f (f x)) is

18:01 gfredericks: technomancy: I figured that might be the case

18:01 jedahu: The following error occurs when I run lein and clojure-1.3.0.jar is in lib/dev/. I am at loss as to what to do given it is required by my dev-dependencies. Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.KeywordLookupSite.<init>(ILclojure/lang/Keyword;)V

18:02 gfredericks: dnolen: amalloy: technomancy: thanks for the thoughts

18:02 technomancy: jedahu: that's expected; clojure 1.3.0 should never be a dev dependency with lein 1.x.

18:02 dnolen: amalloy: seems like you could do 7 - 8 as part of the cache policy, no?

18:02 jedahu: so upgrade to lein 2?

18:02 gfredericks: dnolen: that must be a special feature of unk?

18:02 technomancy: jedahu: if only. it hasn't been written yet. =(

18:03 try to find what's placing 1.3.0 in lib/dev

18:03 dnolen: gfredericks: https://github.com/fogus/unk/blob/master/src/fogus/unk.clj#L41

18:03 seriously, unk should get promoted to contrib ASAP

18:03 gfredericks: technomancy: so for now it's (not (and 1.3 lein))?

18:03 technomancy: dnolen: why?

18:03 gfredericks: you can use 1.3 in your projects, just not in your plugins

18:04 dnolen: technomancy: because tweaking memoization is not uncommon, and the protocol is something everyone can standardize against.

18:04 gfredericks: technomancy: ah ha -- sense it makes

18:04 jedahu: technomancy: so I should make any leiningen plugin I write depend on clojure 1.2?

18:04 gfredericks: ~second

18:04 clojurebot: Motion seconded and carried. Next agenda item.

18:04 gfredericks: dnolen: ^

18:05 clojurebot: so that means you just promoted it to contrib?

18:05 clojurebot: Pardon?

18:05 technomancy: jedahu: all plugins implicitly depend on everything leiningen depends upon, so don't declare any additional dependencies unless they aren't in lein already

18:05 gfredericks: dnolen: I've often thought core/memoize's unconfigurability was a bit ugly.

18:06 technomancy: jedahu: you should read Leiningen's doc/PLUGINS.md

18:06 dnolen: gfredericks: many people have complained - yr not the first.

18:06 technomancy: it's like two lines to expose the memoization atom, but it got shot down

18:06 * technomancy grumblecakes

18:06 gfredericks: technomancy: as metadata?

18:06 jedahu: technomancy: thanks, will do

18:06 technomancy: gfredericks: yep

18:06 * gfredericks notes that the conversation has come full circle

18:08 amalloy: isn't this because "memoize" specifically means what core/memoize actually does? if you want a configurable cachine library, then write one (as fogus did); i don't think making core/memoize configurable makes sense

18:08 gfredericks: amalloy: maybe it's an unfortunate name then?

18:08 hiredman: amalloy: I concur

18:08 technomancy: amalloy: it's not about configuration as much as it is about reversibility

18:09 amalloy: technomancy: reversibility?

18:09 hiredman: gfredericks: memoizing is exactly what it does

18:09 technomancy: irreversible memoization makes tests very difficult

18:09 amalloy: ah

18:09 gfredericks: hiredman: right, I mean it should do something more useful

18:09 hiredman: it is useful

18:09 gfredericks: hiredman: and perhaps therefore be called something else as well

18:09 hiredman: I didn't say it wasn't. I said it should do something _more_ useful :)

18:10 hiredman: you want caching, what is a very complex issue, and there are libraries like unk which provide it

18:10 gfredericks: hiredman: as technomancy said, it'd be a two line change to make the memoize function be a mildly more useful caching function

18:10 amalloy: technomancy: i usually (let) a memoized version of the function for testing of that sort; i'm sure you have some use case where that's no good, and i'm curious what it is

18:11 technomancy: a common pattern is (alter-var-root #'my-fn memoize) immediately following a defn

18:11 cark: haha ok i didn't understand that unk is a library name, just thought technomancy was having keyboard mishaps

18:11 technomancy: heh

18:12 amalloy: technomancy: but that's horrible and evil, right? i mean, if you don't *really-really* mean that the function itself should be memoized, then don't do that

18:12 dnolen: gfredericks: others have pointed out that memoize isn't really meant for creating top level fns anyhow. if you want something top level you need a caching policy.

18:12 gfredericks: exposing it means encouraging people to using a broken cache policy by default.

18:12 technomancy: amalloy: it should always[1] be memoized. [1] - for certain values of always which do not include the test suite.

18:13 there are lots of things you should never[2] do [2] - for certain values of never which do not include the test suite

18:13 amalloy: technomancy: so make a :private non-memoized function, and (def public-version (memoize private-version))

18:13 technomancy: what, with no docstring?

18:13 amalloy: feh

18:14 but i see where you're going, yes

18:15 jedahu: When I run lein, I get this in the listing. I've looked in core.clj and in myplugin.clj but I can't see what I'm doing wrong. leiningen.myplugin Problem loading: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (4) passed to: core$assert (core.clj:186)

18:16 gfredericks: dnolen: hiredman: you are both persuasive.

18:18 cark: allright this hunk library is golden

18:19 gfredericks: cark: it would let me cache in a DB?

18:19 hiredman: cache in sunyata!

18:19 cark: gfredericks: i'm not yet done reading the code

18:20 but looks like you can plug any memoization scheme you want

18:20 * gfredericks knows what hiredman means heck if

18:21 hiredman: https://github.com/hiredman/sunyata

18:21 gfredericks: hiredman: ah hah. I expect that will be much more informative than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81

18:21 hiredman: or, like, I guess you could just use inifinispan

18:21 dnolen: gfredericks: the whole is built ontop of well defined protocols, so swapping in a DB won't be much work.

18:21 hiredman: without the training wheels

18:23 it's a joke, cause "what are you relying on to store your data?" "nothing"

18:23 gfredericks: :)

18:23 hiredman: it's much funnier in sanskrit

18:23 gfredericks: what isn't?

18:24 srid: duck1123: I'm thinking of using your fork, but I cannot fetch the dependencies from your maven repo: https://gist.github.com/1246439

18:24 technomancy: the ineffable emptiness of the void... is it or is it not web scale?

18:24 srid: duck1123: btw, have you considered opening a pull request for ztellman to merge your 1.3 support?

18:24 technomancy: srid: ding! correct question.

18:25 srid: ,+1 srid

18:25 clojurebot: 1

18:25 srid: ,+1 srid

18:25 clojurebot: 1

18:25 duck1123: He's merged some of my changes, I need to send another one for the rest

18:25 technomancy: (inc srid)

18:25 lazybot: ⟹ 1

18:25 srid: always 1?

18:25 gfredericks: srid: not if it happens again

18:25 technomancy: clojurebot doesn't handle karma, and lazybot won't let you inc yourself

18:26 Moominpapa: Hi, I wanted to ask about scope.

18:26 gfredericks: (inc gfredericks)

18:26 lazybot: You can't adjust your own karma.

18:26 gfredericks: hmm

18:27 Moominpapa: I've been trying to write a hook that adds to #'leiningen.ring/ring

18:27 gfredericks: maybe the tilde got ignored

18:27 Moominpapa: And it works.

18:27 Unless I remove lein-ring from the lib directory

18:27 Then it stops deps from working, which is rather bad.

18:28 Can anyone tell me how to get around this?

18:28 srid: duck1123: n/m i fixed the deps issue by browsing the repo; wrong lamina version

18:28 i hope it gets merged to upstream soon.

18:29 duck1123: I'm about to push out a new copy, and then I'll put in a pull request

18:29 srid: excellent

18:29 duck1123: of lamina at least, need to check aleph

18:30 * srid is trying to port to clojure 1.3 for clojurescript goody

18:31 technomancy: Moominpapa: sounds like you need to wrap with some try/catch

18:32 Moominpapa: although hook loading is already wrapped in try/catch if you use :hooks in project.clj

18:33 Moominpapa: Ah, that's cool. I'll look that up.

18:33 I was hoping there was a way to detect if "require" would throw.

18:33 technomancy: hm; elisp has that

18:34 optional noerror arg

18:34 clojure does not

18:34 Moominpapa: But even then, I can get compilation errors. Thinking I need to wrap more stuff in eval.

18:34 Pity.

18:34 Thank you! :)

18:36 hiredman: ugh, really?

18:36 why are you wrapping stuff in eval?

18:38 Moominpapa: OK, simplest version

18:38 (add-hook #'leiningen.ring/ring (myns.watch/watch))

18:39 Problem is, if my deps aren't there, myns.watch doesn't compile and everything falls over in a heap.

18:39 hiredman: (when-let [v (resolve 'lein....ring)] (add-hook v ...))

18:39 technomancy: :hooks loading actually has a special case where it doesn't even report errors if lib/ is empty

18:47 Moominpapa: ok, so :hooks specifies a list of namespaces that add hooks?

18:49 technomancy: yup

18:49 Moominpapa: Cool, I will try this tomorrow. Thankyou very much :)

18:59 duck1123: srid: Ok, I've updated those 3 libraries and pushed them to my repository. I also got around to sending in the pull requests for 2 of them, but gloss' tests are failing on me

18:59 looks like a ratio vs. floats issue

18:59 srid: duck1123: yea, just saw them :-) i've been using your fork, except for one lamina "closed channel" warning everything is working.

19:00 duck1123: yeah, I've been getting that one too. Not sure what's up on that.

19:02 srid: your snapshot releases are based on ztellman's HEAD or his latest public release?

19:02 duck1123: off of head

19:03 I can push a rebased version if you want. It's the same few commits over and over again

19:05 When I get a chance, I want to try to replace the use of prxml with data.xml. Those few dynamic warnings drive me nuts

19:16 shep-home: Is there a common meaning for a function that ends in a hyphen?

19:17 * gfredericks is curious

19:17 dnolen: shep-home: like what?

19:17 gfredericks: clojure.core/- :)

19:17 shep-home: Well, now I'm worried I'm imagining things

19:17 dnolen: heh

19:18 shep-home: there's defn-

19:18 shep-home: I felt I had seen some function pairs like foo and foo-

19:18 technomancy: it means someone was typing a function name and paused to think of the right word and forgot to start typing again

19:18 gfredericks: if I saw it I would imagine it's similar to foo and foo*

19:18 duck1123: actually, I just saw on in gloss, let me find it

19:18 shep-home: gfredericks: what would that mean then?

19:19 dnolen: shep-home: foo will often be defined in terms of foo*.

19:19 gfredericks: shep-home: My interpretation is that foo- is a private simpler version of the function and foo is some wrapper around it

19:19 shep-home: also what dnolen said

19:19 shep-home: and it would be unexpected for an outside user to call the * or - version

19:19 gfredericks: yes

19:20 shep-home: I ofter have a macro-function pair where the function ends in *

19:20 s/ofter/often

19:20 lazybot: <gfredericks> shep-home: I often have a macro-function pair where the function ends in *

19:20 gfredericks: shep-home: I suppose in that case it wouldn't be unheard of to call the * version

19:20 shep-home: but it would still be more of a "you know what you are doing by calling this"

19:21 gfredericks: yeah. not the standard interface.

19:24 shep-home: defn- nicely answers the related question I was going to ask, so thanks for pointing it out :-)

19:24 gfredericks: in #clojure we always try to answer your current question and your next question in one go

19:25 napping: are there any examples of long polling with ring?

19:25 shep-home: gfredericks: is your *answer-seq* of length 2, or do i need to take more?

19:25 :-)

19:26 gfredericks: shep-home: nil

19:26 napping: is aleph not appropriate?

19:26 napping: never heard of it, thanks

19:26 gfredericks: np

19:27 napping: I found https://github.com/mmcgrana/picard

19:28 gfredericks: you'd think if I search for "mmcgrana picard" in github's search box that something would come up :|

19:28 duck1123: Aleph works great for that

19:29 * gfredericks is fiddling with an aleph app right now

19:29 duck1123: in aleph, you get a channel. When you're ready to send, just enqueue the channel

19:30 ibdknox_: the reason aleph is good for long polling is primarily that it's built on netty

19:30 which is important for long running connections

19:40 gfredericks: I'm using aleph TCP and frequently get nil messages coming through the channels...does anybody know what that means?

19:53 Zolrath: I'm trying to use pinot to add elements to the DOM but nothing I try seems to actually… do anything?

19:54 (dom/append (dom/query "body") (ph/html [:p "Test"])) results in no change, but from what I can tell that should add <p>Test</p> into the body tags on my page

19:54 ibdknox_: Zolrath: are you including the script file after the body tag is loaded?

19:54 Zolrath: If I do a (js/alert "Test") it appears so the javascript is getting loaded

19:54 oooooh

19:54 No I'm not

19:54 ibdknox_: :)

19:54 Zolrath: Thank you very much

19:54 ibdknox_: that got me too

19:54 lol

19:55 gfredericks: what's all this? the <script> goes after the <body>?

19:56 ibdknox_: <body>..content... <script> </body>

19:56 it's a common pattern in JS

19:56 gfredericks: presumably just barely uncommon enough that I've never heard of it

19:56 is that an alternative to the dom:ready event?

19:57 ibdknox_: there is no dom ready in gclosure

19:57 sadly

19:57 gfredericks: thus the <script> positioning?

19:57 ibdknox_: yessir

19:57 brehaut: gfredericks: older browsers would also wait for scripts to load and compile before loading other resources

19:57 ibdknox_: though there are other benefits

19:57 yeah

19:57 brehaut: which would block images and css

19:58 ibdknox_: it allows all your content to come in before the script loads/runs

19:58 gfredericks: in the newer browsers it would slightly delay the request for the script?

19:59 brehaut: modern browsers have much more sophisticated heuristics on how and when to load scripts

19:59 i dont tihnk you could make a blanket statement about them

20:00 gfredericks: brehaut: I just meant that it wouldn't even know about the script until it had at least read through the page

20:00 brehaut: sure

20:00 gfredericks: I'm sure it's not a big deal though

20:00 thx for educate

20:00 I learn something new every time I asks questions about topics I'm ignorant of.

20:00 ibdknox_: gfredericks: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2024018/using-domcontentready-considered-anti-pattern-by-google

20:01 gfredericks: ibdknox_: thx

20:02 brehaut: i think yahoo's yslow agrees with that too

20:02 upwardindex: Yes, I'm pretty sure I read putting scripts at the very end in yahoo's recommendation for web dev

20:03 gfredericks: From now on I'm doing <script> ...content... <body></script>, just to be controversial

20:03 I'm sure the browsers will figure it out

20:04 upwardindex: gfredericks: http://developer.yahoo.com/performance/rules.html might want to check this (also "Put scripts at the bottom" section

20:11 gfredericks: I'm using (.readLine *in*) in a program, and have found that `java -jar my-uber.jar` works while `lein run` doesn't -- anybody know the difference?

20:11 amalloy: gfredericks: one of those uses lein

20:11 ~rimshot

20:11 clojurebot: Badum, *ching*

20:12 napping: Is there some way to pick up new dependencies in project.clj without restarting slime?

20:12 gfredericks: I'll switch to make immediately!

20:12 amalloy: seriously though, there's something i don't understand which makes it hard to get stdin when running through lein or cake

20:12 napping: I've run lein deps in a shell, which copied in more files, but they don't seem to be visible in the repl

20:12 amalloy: napping: no

20:13 (sorry, that's just the way it is)

20:13 technomancy: gfredericks: try lein trampoline run

20:14 napping: Ok, that's what I was doing anyway

20:15 technomancy: amalloy: tempted to add code to swank that shells out and runs add-classpath or something absurd like that

20:15 gfredericks: technomancy: that totally worked.

20:15 (inc technomancy)

20:15 lazybot: ⟹ 14

20:15 technomancy: gfredericks: finally, a use for that task! =)

20:16 gfredericks: well wuddayaknow.

20:18 ibdknox_: what does lein trampoline do?

20:19 gfredericks: ibdknox_: A: There's a bug in the Ant library that Leiningen uses to spawn new processes that blocks access to console input. This means that functions like read-line will not work as expected in most contexts, though the repl task necessarily includes a workaround. You can also use the trampoline task to launch your project's JVM after Leiningen's has exited rather than launching it as a subprocess

20:19 ^ quoted from lein readme

20:20 ibdknox_: I see

20:20 technomancy: it's like clojure.core/trampoline, but operating on tasks instead of functions

20:20 sorta

20:20 gfredericks: technomancy: if my task returns a function, will it launch another jvm?

20:20 ibdknox_: is read-line really the only use for it?

20:20 technomancy: gfredericks: no

20:20 well

20:21 really it just runs all the tasks you specify but with eval-in-project replaced with something that just records what should have been run, then passes control back to the shell script

20:21 and the shell script can invoke java with the project's own classpath directly

20:21 ibdknox_: so you can also use it to save memory since it allows leiningen's own java process to exit

20:22 ibdknox_: technomancy: gotcha

20:22 technomancy: basically it's to make up for the fact that java's posix support is a joke and it doesn't implement exec.

20:23 * gfredericks laughs at java's joke

20:25 amalloy: mmmm, trampoline. sounds super. i've been vexed recently by that extra jvm sticking around forever

20:26 technomancy: actually vexed or just a bit irritated?

20:27 amalloy: technomancy: i don't think vex is inherently a stronger word than irritate, is it?

20:28 vex can mean puzzlement as well

20:28 technomancy: hmm... I think of vex as being along the lines of keeping one up at night, but I don't know if that's accurate.

20:28 amalloy: it's a pretty flexible word

20:29 gfredericks: ,(let [vex inc] (vex 12))

20:29 clojurebot: 13

20:29 gfredericks: indeed

20:29 amalloy: things seem to be okay now, but for a week or two 4clojure was having sporadic OOM issues (our fault, probably not lein's), and the extra memory of the lein jvm was problematic

20:30 technomancy: you use "lein run" in production?

20:30 amalloy: our server deploy tools are embarrassingly primitive, yes

20:30 technomancy: I used to advise against that until mcgrana convinced me otherwise.

20:30 do you know about LEIN_NO_DEV?

20:30 amalloy: no

20:30 technomancy: it'll keep dev deps and test off the classpath

20:30 amalloy: does that matter?

20:31 gfredericks: for class load latency maybe?

20:31 technomancy: depends on what you keep in test I guess =)

20:31 we put lots of config in there that isn't appropriate for production

20:31 amalloy: nobody who knows how to do deploys/admin better is interested in contributing, so we just use lein

20:31 technomancy: in test-resources, rather, but same idea

20:32 maybe hugod would be interested in making it an example for pallet =)

20:32 arohner: technomancy: what are the arguments for and against lein run in production?

20:32 technomancy: arohner: well... they are mostly addressed by LEIN_NO_DEV and lein trampoline =)

20:32 the arguments against, anyway

20:33 the main remaining one is that dependency resolution happens at deploy time, so if remote repos go down or if new snapshots sneak in you lose repeatability.

20:33 heroku solves that with the slug compiler, 4clojure probably solves it by not needing repeatability by virtue of having only a single server. =)

20:34 arohner: I like to solve that one with a private maven repo

20:34 technomancy: yes, that's even better

20:34 arohner: someone needs to build a lein plugin for creating maven repos in S3...

20:35 technomancy: it can still let through newer snapshots, lein will try to talk you out of cutting releases that depend on snapshots anyway

20:35 arohner: it'll probably be me that ends up making that...

20:35 technomancy: arohner: I've actually been considering making clojars store its artifacts on s3

20:37 j941: trying to convert (map second soaps (mapcat keys)) to thrush operator, but i failed...

20:37 (-> (map second soaps) (mapcat keys))

20:37 more like, (apply (partial conj #{}) (mapcat keys (map second records)))))

20:38 amalloy: ->>

20:38 j941: I want to convert it so that its linear, thrush style... but it won't work :(

20:38 amalloy: oh, nm

20:38 (->> (mapcat keys) (map second soaps))

20:39 j941: yay! --> 2nd arg, -> is the first ?

20:39 amalloy: ->> is last

20:39 also, your partial there is unnecessary

20:39 j941: ok

20:39 amalloy: (apply conj #{} (...))

20:39 j941: im reverse engineering code from this post http://www.magpiebrain.com/2010/08/10/creating-sparse-tabular-data-with-clojure/

20:41 amalloy: wow, why is he trying to turn this stuff into strings?

20:43 oh, he's trying to...create a csv? man, this is so much more complicated than it would be if he flipped the table 90 degrees - a column per day, and a row per show

20:43 j941: yeah it seems nuts.

20:44 amalloy: i advise against reverse-engineering things which are nuts

20:45 napping: should this code be serving empty pages http://pastebin.com/CiTe3PLh ?

20:45 j941: haha well. i just want to tabulate this http://pastebin.com/Dy401Br6

20:46 amalloy: $google clojure csv

20:46 lazybot: [davidsantiago/clojure-csv - GitHub] https://github.com/davidsantiago/clojure-csv

20:46 j941: #

20:46 brehaut: napping: it shouldnt return a blank page

20:46 napping: it works as expected if it's (run-jetty app {:port 8080})

20:46 brehaut: napping: also, you have c-itus with your closing braces and parens

20:47 amalloy: napping: loading your namespace has the side effect of trying to launch a jetty server

20:47 and wrap-reload will load your namespace often

20:47 napping: ah

20:47 j941: oh wow i just saw clojure0csv that looks good.

20:47 ibdknox_: napping: noir would take care of all this basic stuff for you, if you're just trying to get started

20:47 amalloy: i don't know if that's the cause of your problem, but you shouldn't do it

20:47 brehaut: napping: (defonce server (run-jetty…

20:50 j941: but im wondering -- how can i transpose the data in clojure ?

20:50 i will pastebin it ... hold on ...

20:51 brehaut: ,(apply map vector [[:a 1] [:b 2] [:c 3]])

20:51 clojurebot: ([:a :b :c] [1 2 3])

20:52 brehaut: for a simple case

20:53 j941: http://pastebin.com/8Sgb2AeN

20:54 So the idea is, that, i want a lists columns to become headers in the file.

20:55 so taking a list with several 4-tuples in it, and then turning it into a 2D list where the entire tuple is the value of any x,y point.

20:56 napping: defonce doesn't seem to work well enough - and it still comes up blank.

20:56 at least it gives me a server handle, I didn't realize there was a meaningful result

20:56 brehaut: napping: defonce just stops it being redefined on reload

20:57 napping: are you testing this from a browser or a repl?

20:57 napping: it seems C-c C-l does something more then

20:57 j941: are there 2d data structures in clojure?

20:57 napping: testing from a browser, running from slime

20:57 j941: like 2d lists ?

20:57 or map w/ two keys ?

20:57 brehaut: ,{[1,2] :a [4,5] :b}

20:57 clojurebot: {[4 5] :b, [1 2] :a}

20:58 brehaut: ,[[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]]

20:58 clojurebot: [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]]

20:58 j941: @brehaut , so [4 5] is a key pointing to "b" ?

20:58 (thanks)

20:59 brehaut: j941: to :b

20:59 (keyword, rather than a symbol)

20:59 napping: what's that about braces? some are where paredit put them, and some are there to make it easier to add more items

20:59 j941: ok but it could easily be {[1,2] "a" [4,5] "b"} , right ?

20:59 brehaut: j941: yes

21:00 napping: ok. just as long as you realise that its unidiomatic to have closing parens etc hanging on their own line

21:00 j941: cool. so is there a Lispy way to convert A_6546_p_100_c_10/final.pdb,CA,3.7584383 into such a list element ?

21:00 or just roll up elbows and use java split it

21:01 brehaut: ,(split "ab,c,d" #",")

21:01 clojurebot: #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: split in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>

21:01 napping: what do you do? C-M-f?

21:02 j941: oh ok cool clojure has a split . thanks.

21:02 brehaut: ,(use 'clojure.string)

21:02 clojurebot: WARNING: replace already refers to: #'clojure.core/replace in namespace: sandbox, being replaced by: #'clojure.string/replace

21:02 WARNING: reverse already refers to: #'clojure.core/reverse in namespace: sandbox, being replaced by: #'clojure.string/reverse

21:02 nil

21:02 duck1123: ,(clojure.string/split "ab,c,d" #",")

21:02 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: replace already refers to: #'clojure.string/replace in namespace: sandbox>

21:02 gfredericks: does clojurebot reboot regularly?

21:02 brehaut: yikes im sorry

21:02 duck1123: whenever someone breaks it :)

21:03 * brehaut whistles nonchalantly

21:03 gfredericks: how does it know when it's been broken?

21:03 brehaut: if you want to really have fun start setting functions to macros

21:03 j941: clojure bot doesnt like it.

21:04 i guess because missing import? Thats cool that clojure bot ... does it run everything we type?

21:04 gfredericks: j941: prefixed with a comma

21:04 brehaut: j941: no the bot is sandboxed, no eval, defs etc

21:04 gfredericks: ,(str \: \- \D)

21:04 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: replace already refers to: #'clojure.string/replace in namespace: sandbox>

21:04 gfredericks: ,(inc 38)

21:04 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: replace already refers to: #'clojure.string/replace in namespace: sandbox>

21:05 brehaut: it also helps if some twit didnt break the bot first

21:05 duck1123: It's not going to do anything

21:05 gfredericks: if I knew my ns functions well enough I'd try to set them back

21:05 ,(use 'clojure.core)

21:05 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: replace already refers to: #'clojure.string/replace in namespace: sandbox>

21:05 amalloy: hiredman: clojurebot needs someone to resurrect him

21:05 gfredericks: I would have guessed clojurebot would reboot itself every so often

21:05 clojurebot: I don't understand.

21:06 gfredericks: clojurebot: are you male?

21:06 clojurebot: Cool story bro.

21:06 duck1123: clojurebot: reload

21:06 clojurebot: _seanc_: Your files don't get reloaded when a request is made.

21:08 j941: why the # in split ? why not just (clojure.string/split "a,b" ",") ... is # making the stirng a function ?

21:08 gfredericks: j941: makes it a regex

21:08 brehaut: j941: split takes a regexp

21:08 gfredericks: &(type #"fubar")

21:08 lazybot: ⇒ java.util.regex.Pattern

21:11 duck1123: Is there a flag that'll make lein re-fetch all of the snapshots? (similar to -U in maven)

21:15 j941: how to get the 1st and 3rd elements of a list ? (nth [ 1 2 3 4 ] 1 3) doesnt work

21:16 brehaut: (map #(nth [1 2 3 4] %) [1 2])

21:17 err make that [1 3] at the end

21:17 or alternatively with destructuring (let [[a _ b] [1 2 3 4]] [a b])

21:17 j941: good call @brehaut

21:18 why _ in the middle ?

21:18 brehaut: so that you skip an element

21:18 _ is bound but we dont care about it

21:19 actually thats slightly wrong because, thats 0 and 2 rather than 1 and 3

21:19 j941: yup could be x y z got it

21:19 brehaut: (let [[_ a _ b] [1 2 3 4]] [a b])

21:19 joegallo: ,(vals (select-keys [1 2 3 4 5] [1 3]))

21:19 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: replace already refers to: #'clojure.string/replace in namespace: sandbox>

21:20 joegallo: oh well, anyway, that works if you don't care what order they're in

21:20 brehaut: j941: its hard to suggest a particular form without knowing what you are doing with it though

21:20 gfredericks: &(vals (select-keys [1 2 3 4 5] [1 3]))

21:21 lazybot: ⇒ (4 2)

21:21 * gfredericks had no idea you could use select-keys with vectors

21:21 gfredericks: even stranger that it comes back as a list...

21:22 oh never mind

21:22 duck1123: it's probably a lazy seq

21:22 gfredericks: it's a map actually

21:22 &(select-keys [1 2 3 4 5] [1 3])

21:22 lazybot: ⇒ {3 4, 1 2}

21:23 brehaut: select-keys uses find under the hood, i dont know if that impacts its performance profile compared to nth though

21:24 gfredericks: brehaut: my repl thinks nth and find on vectors are about the same

21:25 duck1123: isn't find special cased for vectors?

21:25 brehaut: no idea, its in the RT

21:25 so source doesnt tell me

21:25 gfredericks: I think it'd have to be, if it only works for vectors and maps

21:26 j941: is there a way to target thrush to specific args ?

21:26 (->X (f1 X) (f2 "hi" X) (f3 "hello" "again" X))

21:26 brehaut: -> isnt thrush, its a rewriting macro

21:27 if you want X to be threaded at the end of the forms, use ->>

21:28 &[(macroexpand '(-> 1 (a b))) (macroexpand '(->> 1 (a b)))]

21:28 lazybot: ⇒ [(a 1 b) (a b 1)]

21:29 gfredericks: what if ->> went to the second arg, and ->>> etc., and -< went to the last...

21:30 amalloy: gfredericks: you can make it happen

21:30 gfredericks: amalloy: I know, I've seen amalloy-utils :P

21:30 amalloy: har har

21:31 * gfredericks can't decide how to prononce 'amalloy'

21:31 duck1123: I don't think I've ever wanted to thread multiple functions on the second arg

21:31 gfredericks: duck1123: me neither

21:31 brehaut: gfredericks: im pretty sure you'll pronounce brehaut more incorrectly

21:31 gfredericks: duck1123: unless you were also talking about the last arg

21:31 duck1123: right

21:31 gfredericks: brehaut: I always pronounce 'brehaut' as 'amalloy'

21:32 brehaut: lol

21:32 amalloy: letter-A, muh, LOY

21:32 gfredericks: so not AH-muh-LOY

21:32 amalloy: hey, say whatever you want in the confines of your own head

21:32 everyone still calls you girlfrog anyway

21:33 gfredericks: it can't be helped

21:33 amalloy: (you're gfrlog, right?)

21:33 gfredericks: it's undeniable

21:33 brehaut: lol

21:33 gfredericks: who else interjects as much as I do?

21:34 amalloy: well

21:34 there was that guy yesterday

21:34 who put newlines every five words

21:34 he probly interjected more yesterday

21:34 than you have in your life

21:34 gfredericks: glad I missed that

21:35 irc haiku

21:35 amalloy: ~haiku

21:35 clojurebot: It's greek to me.

21:35 gfredericks: an opportunity!

21:35 amalloy: gfredericks: just /msg fsbot haiku, it's easier

21:36 gfredericks: the things I don't know about

21:36 they are numerous

21:37 I think I got this backwards

21:38 amalloy: that's not a haiku, is it??

21:38 lazybot: amalloy: What are you, crazy? Of course not!

21:38 gfredericks: this isn't how you trigger lazybot, is it?

21:38 amalloy: evidently not

21:38 gfredericks: must need the second question mark

21:39 amalloy: don't pretend you don't know all its secrets

21:39 amalloy: gfredericks: you think i wrote the darn thing, or something???

21:39 lazybot: amalloy: Oh, absolutely.

21:40 * gfredericks refuses to laugh

21:40 amalloy: ~guards

21:40 clojurebot: SEIZE HIM!

21:41 gfredericks: now get them to fall in love

21:41 amalloy: ~<3

21:41 clojurebot: <3 is </3

21:42 amalloy: i don't remember who taught him that, but it's sad that this is all he knows of love

21:42 gfredericks: is there a way to get him to return all values for a key?

21:42 amalloy: *shrug*

21:42 probably not, since it's not just k/v, it's search

21:42 gfredericks: ~love

21:42 clojurebot: Excuse me?

21:43 gfredericks: what? no song references at least?

21:43 amalloy: clojurebot: tell us about python

21:43 clojurebot: python is ugly

21:43 brehaut: opinionated SOB isnt he

21:43 gfredericks: clojurebot: ~haskell

21:43 clojurebot: Cool story bro.

21:43 gfredericks: only picks on the weaklings

21:43 amalloy: see, he doesn't have any special treatment for "tell us about", and python is at the end; he does some kind of search in his db

21:43 gfredericks: i think this implies that you are the weakling

21:44 gfredericks: clojurebot: where can I buy a python?

21:44 clojurebot: python is ugly

21:44 amalloy: clojurebot: what's the deal with haskell?

21:44 clojurebot: "you have to see features like that in the context of Haskell's community, which is something like Perl's community in the garden of Eden: detached from all shame or need to do any work." -- ayrnieu

21:48 j941: (-> (slurp "resources/hino.txt") (clojure.string/split "_") )

21:48 (->> (slurp "resources/hino.txt") (clojure.string/split "_") )

21:48 gfredericks: j941: you want #"_" instead of "_"?

21:48 j941: also fails ? REPL Complains about Regex cast.

21:48 ooops

21:50 jeremyheiler: clojurebot: tell us about ruby

21:50 clojurebot: Chunky bacon!

21:50 jeremyheiler: lol

21:51 amalloy: haha what

21:51 ~ruby

21:51 clojurebot: Chunky bacon!

21:51 amalloy: fascinating

21:51 gfredericks: better than being ugly I guess

21:51 brehaut: ~pascal

21:51 clojurebot: Excuse me?

21:51 gfredericks: at least it smells good

21:51 duck1123: makes perfect sense

21:51 jeremyheiler: (it's a reference to why's book i suppose)

21:52 brehaut: ~java

21:52 clojurebot:

21:52 brehaut: haha

21:57 j941: do i need let for this ? (let [[a _ b] [1 2 3 4]] [a b])

21:58 duck1123: you need a place where you can do destructuring

21:58 gfredericks: if you had a function called 'third' then you could do (juxt first third)

22:00 amalloy: didn't we do this with select-keys a minute ago?

22:00 oh, nm, wait

22:00 &(map [1 2 3 4] [0 2])

22:00 lazybot: ⇒ (1 3)

22:00 gfredericks: if he's got a vector

22:01 amalloy: gfredericks: he just said he did :P

22:01 gfredericks: well I didn't see it

22:01 amalloy: i mean, the question he asked has a vector

22:01 gfredericks: :P

22:01 brehaut: amalloy: nah, he quoted my code

22:02 i think i might have assumed it was a vector

22:02 or just used it for example

22:02 Zolrath: The examples for remote calls in pinot seem straightforward but even copying their example and trying to run it, none of the calls seem to actually happen

22:03 j941: oh ok @nm

22:03 Zolrath: I'm using the wrap-remotes middleware in Noir and I've tried defining the remote in multiple places

22:07 j941: hmmm ok almost working ... but .... still getting an error .

22:07 (-> (slurp "resources/hino.txt") (clojure.string/split #"_") (map #(nth % 1) ))

22:07 -> (slurp "resources/hino.txt") (clojure.string/split #"_") (map #(nth % 1) ))

22:07 "Don't know how to create ISeq from: user$eval297$fn__298

22:13 gfredericks: j941: map takes the function first and the collection second

22:13 your use of -> puts them in the wrong order

22:13 brehaut: j941: its not haskell, you dont need to feel obligated to point free everything ;)

22:15 j941: what is point free

22:16 i think the argument doesnt get into the map

22:16 gfredericks: j941: replace (map #(nth % 1)) with (->> (map #(nth % 1)))

22:17 the argument gets into the map fine, just in the wrong spot

22:17 you want it last

22:17 j941: oh ok.

22:18 i didnt know you could have --> and -> together!

22:18 gfredericks: j941: also you could repcale #(nth % 1) with second

22:18 j941: i know... im not thinking functionally

22:18 gfredericks: j941: a trick hiredman taught me

22:18 j941: im thinking in syntax. <-- naughty boy

22:19 gfredericks: j941: the fact that you can use them together is just a result of how they work, not something that's intentionally built into it

22:19 j941: now its returning some kind of function

22:19 (-> (slurp "resources/hino.txt") (clojure.string/split #"_") (->> map #(nth % 1) ) )

22:20 gfredericks: j941: you forgot a set of parens around map

22:20 (->> (map second))

22:22 ibdknox: pyr: pushed a fix for the event stuff you were seeing yesterday

22:22 j941: o ok. thats odd.... what is the diff made by adding the parens

22:23 i mean, shouldnt it "know" that im trying to run the map function ?

22:23 gfredericks: &(map macroexpand '[(->> coll map second) (->> coll (map second))])

22:23 lazybot: ⇒ ((second (clojure.core/->> coll map)) (map second coll))

22:23 ibdknox: you have to tell it how to group the parameters

22:24 gfredericks: j941: (->> coll map second) simplifies to (second (map coll))

22:24 which is not what you want

22:24 you want (map second coll)

22:24 which is what you get from (->> coll (map second))

22:25 * gfredericks goes to bed

22:29 j941: oh ok

22:30 srid: anyone wanting to participate in stanford's #ml-class?

22:30 companion_cube: what is it,

22:30 ,

22:30 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: replace already refers to: #'clojure.string/replace in namespace: sandbox>

22:30 companion_cube: oops

22:31 duck1123: great companion_cube you broke it :)

22:32 companion_cube: ,(+ 2 2)

22:32 clojurebot: #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: replace already refers to: #'clojure.string/replace in namespace: sandbox>

22:32 Zolrath: srid: I'm planning on it! I've gone through a few of the videos that they have up right now in preparation.

22:33 companion_cube: duck1123: no, i found a bug ;)

22:33 duck1123: no, someone tried to use clojure.string and killed him

22:35 j941: how can you have (->>) in the last function ? isnt the job of ->> to forward args?

22:36 duck1123: which one?

22:37 Zolrath: (-> thing (another one)) would result in (another thing one) but (->> thing (another one)) would be (another one thing)

22:38 duck1123: they both just rewrite the code

22:38 brehaut: j941: -> and ->> just rewrite the forms; its really easy to see with macroexpand

22:38 j941: ok

22:38 duck1123: I was so happy when I discoverd my little debug logging macro still worked with -> and ->>

22:39 amalloy: duck1123: it actually works even better, i suspect

22:39 mine is named ?, for maximum concision, and you can just slam it into a pipeline without even putting in parens: (->> data (stage 1) (stage 2) ? output)

22:39 duck1123: https://github.com/duck1123/ciste/blob/master/src/ciste/debug.clj

22:40 I like that name though

22:40 amalloy: duck1123: see also ##(doc pr-str)

22:40 lazybot: ⇒ "([& xs]); pr to a string, returning it"

22:40 amalloy: you really-really don't want to use print for debugging

22:41 duck1123: good point, I'll change that

22:41 amalloy: mostly because ##(map print-string ['a "a" \a]) all look the same

22:41 lazybot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: print-string in this context

22:41 amalloy: mostly because ##(map print-str ['a "a" \a]) all look the same

22:41 lazybot: ⇒ ("a" "a" "a")

22:42 duck1123: well, the point is I usually wrap a variable, and it prints that name and the pretty-printed value

22:43 amalloy: duck1123: right. and if you want to know whether its value is a string or a symbol?

22:43 &(map pr-str ['a "a" \a]) actually makes them print differently; you don't lose information

22:43 lazybot: ⇒ ("a" "\"a\"" "\\a")

22:43 duck1123: fair enough

22:45 devth: can anyone give me a little guidance here? i'm writing my first clojure app - a campfire chatbot - and my regular workflow is to write some code, send it to the repl and execute it. however, my listening handler is a blocking `with-open` expression that listens for chats, which takes over my repl and blocks all other input. i then need to ctrl+d, restart the repl, send all my code to it and proceed. suggestions?

22:47 brehaut: devth: im particularly familiar with with-open, but i think if you spawn a thread to contain that activity, and use #' (var quoting) to reference the functions that are going to be redefined

22:47 devth: your repl shouldnt block that way

22:47 devth: brehaut: ah, excellent. now i need to go learn how to spawn a thread :)

22:47 brehaut: devth: the cheating way is (future …)

22:48 devth: brehaut: thanks for the tip.

22:48 j941: size of a list ?

22:48 brehaut: devth: dont chuck it into your NS without wrapping it in a fn or defonce

22:48 devth: ok.

22:48 j941: i googled "length of list clojure" and it pulled up an article about tail-recursion. lol...

22:49 jeremyheiler: ##(count '(1 2 3))

22:49 lazybot: ⇒ 3

22:49 j941: duh count

22:50 tomoj: I was thinking "why not make lists counted?".. but they are :)

22:51 duck1123: j941: do you know about clojureatlas.com ? It's good whan you know what you want to do, but not what it's called

22:53 j941: clojure needs better error messages. is this under way for next version ?

22:57 clojureatlas never used it will check

22:58 brehaut: j941: its an ongoing process. depending what you mean by 'better'

23:01 devth: brehaut: worked like a charm :)

23:01 brehaut: devth: glad to hear :)

23:02 theres not many languages where just throwing a thread at the problem makes things better

23:02 j941: is there an idiomatic way to "fork" a list into 3 different functions ? I have a big pipe im building. its getting bigger now,

23:02 (-> (slurp "resources/hino.txt") (clojure.string/split #"\n") (->> (map #(clojure.string/split % #"_"))) (->> (map count) )) ;;

23:02 brehaut: j941: 'fork' ?

23:03 j941: i want to do 3 functions to the output of the 2nd to last func (a->b->c1, a->b->c2, a->b->c3)

23:04 duck1123: save the step before they split? (ie. let)

23:04 brehaut: ((juxt count (partial apply +)) [1 2 3])

23:04 &((juxt count (partial apply +)) [1 2 3])

23:04 lazybot: ⇒ [3 6]

23:04 brehaut: like that?

23:04 j941: what is juxt supposed to do i never really understood

23:05 brehaut: it juxtaposes some functions; ie, count and sum in that example

23:05 juxt returns a new function. the arguments to that function are passed to all the juxtaposed functions and a vector is returned with all the arguments

23:05 j941: processing <---

23:05 oh wow

23:06 brehaut: eg, (juxt inc dec) ~> (fn [x] [(inc x) (dec x)])

23:06 j941: well ... how come duck1123 didnt say juxt !

23:06 thats cool

23:06 brehaut: because your question was quite hard to follow?

23:06 j941: lol

23:06 brehaut: (i took a random guess)

23:06 joegallo: so, in this case, your example might resemble ((juxt c1 c2 c3) (b (a)))

23:06 j941: brehaut saves the day (again)

23:06 excellent

23:07 joegallo: j941: and duck1123's way was totally fine, too

23:07 j941: im trying to wean myself off vars

23:07 brehaut: joegallo: lets do this properly :P ((comp (juxt c1 c2 c3) b a))

23:07 duck1123: I don't use juxt as much as I should

23:08 j941: comp

23:08 not sure whats that do

23:08 brehaut: (comp a b) => (fn [& args] (a (apply b args)))

23:08 it composes some functions

23:08 j941: why compose ?

23:08 brehaut: j941: this is 'point free' programming; writing programs in terms of functions but without reference to their arguments

23:09 j941: oh ok

23:09 why "point" free

23:09 duck1123: use it when it feels right, but don't force yourself to it

23:09 j941: arg free

23:09 brehaut: j941: because discrete math :P

23:09 j941: ok

23:10 brehaut: its to do with fixed points of functions

23:10 duck1123: (comp a b) is easier than #(a (b %))

23:10 brehaut: blah blah haskell blah blah

23:10 joegallo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_programming

23:10 j941: less vars/args -> more logic -> cleaner data flow . makes sense.

23:10 duck1123 what do you mean ? are those equivalent ?

23:11 duck1123: roughly, yes

23:11 j941: yeah your right they are. cool . comp must be really important.

23:11 brehaut: j941: importantly point free programming describes the relationship between functions. there are situations where that makes things clearer (parser combinators are a great example). sometimes it just makes things messy though

23:12 Zolrath: Or maybe my issue is that I don't understand clojure/clojurescript interop

23:12 If I define a remote call that returns a string it works

23:12 But if I try to make the Clojure portion return a map and then call different portions of the map in clojurescript, no go

23:14 duck1123: Zolrath: is it picking it up as a map? or is it a string now?

23:15 Zolrath: duck1123: it doesn't seem to be returning anything when I send a map through the remote

23:16 If I do (:title result) in the clojure side and send that as the result I get the title

23:16 but if I just send the result to clojurescript and try calling (:title result) on that, nothing

23:16 duck1123: how are you sending it?

23:17 j941: it would be better if -> ->> could be order independant

23:17 Zolrath: The pinot defremote/remote macros

23:17 j941: like binded to some keyword or variable

23:18 brehaut: j941: i like to use -> and ->> as a seasoning rahter than a flavor. write small named functions to do various pieces, and then run then together with -> as needed

23:18 duck1123: isn't that what let is for?

23:18 brehaut: or go properly point free

23:19 j941: oh ok. this can be done point free ?

23:19 (-> (slurp "resources/hino.txt") (clojure.string/split #"\n") (->> (map #(clojure.string/split % #"_"))) (juxt (->> (map count) () )) ;;

23:19 napping: are servlets notified in any way if the client closes the connection before they are done?

23:19 j941: forget about juxt part thats just a WIP

23:19 brehaut: j941: just start with a let

23:19 j941: yeah let is what i normally do but i feel like if i overuse let, i might as well be programming in java.

23:20 nevertheless i see ure point

23:21 duck1123: either that, or breik pieces of this off into higher level fns

23:21 and then thread those

23:21 man, my typing is bad tonight

23:22 brehaut: &(find-doc "read-lines")

23:22 lazybot: ⇒ ------------------------- clojure.contrib.duck-streams/read-lines ([f]) Like clojure.core/line-seq but opens f with reader. Automatically closes the reader AFTER YOU CONSUME THE ENTIRE SEQUENCE. ------------------------- clojure.contrib.io/read-lines ([f]) L... https://gist.github.com/1246912

23:22 napping: also split-lines

23:23 brehaut: yeah, ignore read-lines

23:24 duck1123: so if you have read-lines, but you only consume the first, does it leave that open once it goes out of scope?

23:24 brehaut: (you can trivially define it as (def read-lines (comp split-lines slurp)) if you find yourself repeating it)

23:25 duck1123: im going to pretend that given its in old contrib that it doesnt exist at all

23:25 Zolrath: duck1123: Figured it out, had a Date object as a value to one of the keys which did not please Clojurescript

23:25 duck1123: yeah, I globally exclude old contrib in my projects

23:26 brehaut: my projects still rely on it a bit, but im working on getting them off it

23:27 duck1123: Good to hear. Pinot wasn't ready to use when I last looked at it, and I havn't gotten back around to touching up my clojurescript yet

23:27 brehaut: pinot is doing RPC?

23:27 duck1123: I had to patch just about every dependency I had at one point, but it's getting a lot better now

23:28 brehaut: my one publicly available (but thankfully not largely deployed as far as i know) library is still waiting on algo.monads

23:32 napping: how is (deliver blocked "Response!") not failing if other code has changed so blocked will always be a result of (ref "message")?

23:36 icefox: Anyone already report that paypal isn't letting you register for the clojure-conf class/conference?

23:36 brehaut: icefox: i did see something about them trying to organise more sets for the conj, so maybe its not letting you register atm because of that?

23:37 amalloy: napping: i don't think that's the case

23:37 icefox: Paypal says it can't process the order because the account isn't accepting at this time or something like that

23:37 amalloy: &(deliver (ref "message") "Response!")

23:37 lazybot: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn

23:37 icefox: paypal didn't lock the account did they?

23:38 napping: http://pastebin.com/w0hpStyt

23:39 amalloy: napping: i refuse to look at code with that much mutable state. that's gross

23:39 napping: I see refs piling up in the collection, and "/release" reporting numbers

23:39 amalloy: but the issue is that for is lazy - you're not executing any actual code in the body

23:39 napping: ah, that would do it

23:43 works much better with the doall

23:43 amalloy: ugh

23:43 doseq

23:44 Apage43: You could also just use doseq

23:44 amalloy: hm. i sound crabby, sorry. going to stop trying to be helpful for a bit

23:45 napping: well, I'm wondering if there is anything that delivers an exception to or otherwise eliminates servlet handlers if the client goes away while they haven't produced a response

23:46 technomancy: next time someone complains about how hard slime is to set up I am going to link them to http://ascarter.net/2011/09/25/modern-ruby-development.html

23:46 because *that* is complicated

23:46 I used to do ruby full time and I only understand about half of it

23:46 brehaut: whoa

23:49 Apage43: how did node.js get in here

23:50 brehaut: Apage43: who doesnt need more javascript in their enviroment?

23:50 technomancy: "now you have 1.999999999999999999999998 problems"

23:50 * brehaut actually loled

23:52 j941: "

23:53 Article Im reading about "juxt".

23:54 Apage43: just how much is there to say about it

23:55 brehaut: j941: careful, too far down that rabbit-hole and you'll hit arrows

23:56 technomancy: ow! my skin! http://p.hagelb.org/arrowed.jpg

23:56 brehaut: haha


23:56 duck1123: I'd worry more about my internal organs

23:57 brehaut: technomancy: do you have an endless supply of arrows related comics?

23:58 technomancy: brehaut: haven't you heard? my super power is the ability to link to apropos comics at will.

23:58 brehaut: i had not heard

23:58 amalloy: it's mostly either wondermark or haskell

23:59 brehaut: wondermark confuses the crap out of me

23:59 * technomancy was bitten by a radioactive Chris Onstad once upon a time

23:59 brehaut: that sounds bad

23:59 those kinds of storylines are riddled with teen angst

23:59 technomancy: could have been worse

23:59 could have been a spider

Logging service provided by n01se.net