#clojure log - Jun 17 2011

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0:27 seancorfield: promise/deliver vs delay - if you know what the resulting expression is going to be but you just don't want it available at initialization time (because it depends on some as yet uncomputed value), is there any reason to use promise (and deliver it when said uncomputed value is computed) vs delay (assuming you know it will never be accessed until after said value is computed?

0:27 it feels like using promise/deliver is "side-effecty" and not very functional...

0:37 ViciousPlant: \/join #python

1:16 zakwilson: I got to talk about Clojure to a .NET meetup I randomly went to because its organizer said it would be about things other than .NET. I wish I'd been more organized.

2:32 Scriptor: is there a nice way to view all the clojars besides http://clojars.org/repo? Alternatively is there a clojure lib for scraping clojars?

2:42 raek: seancorfield: I'm curious... what lead to the cyclic dependency?

2:46 tomoj: can you generate an efficient permutation on longs using a seeded Random? or do you need a skippable random?

3:26 nathanmarz: tomoj: i don't think so -- the docs for random say it won't generate all possible longs. I think you can do it by using the lower or upper half of a UUID

3:28 tomoj: hmm

3:28 that will give me one piece of one permutation

3:30 but how to generate the UUIDs repeatedly when you don't know which longs you'll need?

3:30 s/repeatedly/repeatably/

3:30 nathanmarz: oh you want it to be repeatable

3:30 no idea there

3:33 tomoj: actually..

3:33 I think the problem is finding f so that (f seed) returns a pseudorandom bijection on the longs

3:34 but since it's the longs, I bet having (f seed) just be a hash function would work well enough

3:35 tsdh: If there is some java method setFoo(Map<String, Integer>), can I call that from clojure with (.setFoo my-obj {"One" 1, "Two" 2})?

3:38 raek: tomoj: it might be possible to use a Linear Feedback Shift Register: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_feedback_shift_register

3:39 I think I have read somewhere that you can configure the polynom so that for x bits, it will step through each of the 2^x states once, except for the all-zero one

3:42 tomoj: http://www.cs.rit.edu/~ark/pj/doc/edu/rit/util/DefaultRandom.html

3:42 I wonder if that one has that property

3:42 if so it would be especially convenient

3:43 because it can skip to any step very quickly

3:45 wow, it's so simple https://gist.github.com/85e0c07a7cbfe7367d75

4:17 that supposedly has a period of about 2^64, but you pass a positive long to skip ahead

4:17 so you need two skips to exhaust the period?

4:24 indeed

4:29 TobiasRaeder: Morning :)

4:44 tsdh: Is clojure.org down?

4:47 Hm, works again...

4:52 Is there some conversion utility to convert clojure collections to java collections? Like [1 2 3] ==> ArrayList<Integer>, {"1" 1, "1" 2} ==> HashMap<String, Integer>,...

4:58 sids: tsdh: clojure collections already implement the java collection interfaces

4:59 ,(isa? (type []) java.util.List)

4:59 clojurebot: true

4:59 tsdh: sids: Yes, but that doesn't help when you need to set java attributes of Collection/Map types.

5:01 Oh, wait. My test was wrong...

5:02 sids: you can get an an ArrayList from a vector like: ##(java.util.ArrayList. [1 2 3])

5:02 sexpbot: ⟹ #<ArrayList [1, 2, 3]>

5:05 tsdh: Hm, but that doesn't work recursively. ,(java.util.ArrayList. [ [1 2 3] [4 5 6] ])

5:05 ##(java.util.ArrayList. [ [1 2 3] [4 5 6] ])

5:05 sexpbot: ⟹ #<ArrayList [[1 2 3], [4 5 6]]>

5:05 fliebel: tsdh: check clojure.walk

5:07 tsdh: fliebel: Yes, I've already used it. Just wanted to be sure there's no existing solution.

5:07 raek: tsdh: why is it not enough to use the clojure data structures directly in your case?

5:09 tsdh: I work with some java lib, and when I invoke some java setFoo(List<String>) from clojure, it will most probably work, but as soon someone tries to use getFoo().add("Hi there"), he'll get an UnsupportedOperationException.

5:10 raek: ah, you need the mutation...

5:10 tsdh: Not *me*, *they*. :-)

5:11 raek: a recursivly define function would be very easy to write

5:11 -d

5:12 but protocols would be nice here

5:13 tsdh: raek: Yeah, I already have some defmulti for the other way round. Unpacking some java union-like type into native clojure structures.

5:24 raek: tsdh: my idea: https://gist.github.com/1031113

5:25 tsdh: raek: Hey, very nice!

5:32 raek: Plugged it in, tested it, and it works fine.

5:49 raek: tsdh: this might not work. there is an ambiguity in the dispatch since a PersistentList is both a ISeq and an Object. maybe a multimethod with a default implementation is better

5:51 tsdh: raek: Anything is an Object. Does the order of classes in extend-protocol not determine the exact dispatching?

5:54 raek: tsdh: it does not

5:58 tsdh: raek: Hm, ok. We support only a small range of attribute types, so I guess I would be fine if I delete Object and add Number, String, Boolean explicitly instead, right?

6:02 raek: tsdh: drop-in replacement with multimethods: https://gist.github.com/1031156

6:02 tsdh: mm, yes. I think so

6:05 tsdh: raek: I think I go with the modified protocol version. It might be faster and I get an error if I've forgotten some type.

6:06 raek: (discussion: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/fb3a0b03bf3ef8ca/2b5701b57a28236b)

6:08 ilyak: Is there something like (map but not lazy?

6:09 something that eagerly applies a function to each seq element

6:10 raek: ilyak: (doall (map ...))

6:10 tsdh: ilyak: (doall (map ...))?

6:10 Haha!

6:11 :-)

6:11 raek: You were faster, but I typed in one more char.

6:11 raek: ilyak: if you don't care about the values, use (dorun (map ...)) or (doseq [element coll] ...)

6:12 doseq has the same syntax as for and can be defined as (dorun (for ...))

6:13 ilyak: raek: That's two levels of indentation

6:13 I guess I have to do my own domap

6:15 raek: ilyak: doseq is only one level

6:17 ilyak: nope, doseq is at least five

6:17 because "coll" gets really really pushed right

6:18 the problem with let-style [bin dings]

6:18 is that they indent really bad if there's something complex in there

6:29 raek: then you can break up the complex stuff in with helper functions or let some of the parts

6:34 tsdh: In clj 1.3, is the doc function gone?

6:37 clgv: tsdh: not that I heard of

6:38 tsdh: Got it. It's in the clojure.repl namespace which is not used by default.

6:39 clgv: tsdh: it's used in the repl by default I guess ;)

6:41 tsdh: clgv: No, that's the problem. At least not in the REPLs I get with "lein repl" or SLIME.

6:41 clgv: tsdh: oh ok.

6:41 I had clojure 1.3 running in CCW

6:42 but I don't know if there is a possible scenario of a clojure 1.2 repl implementation running 1.3 inside

6:42 clojurebot: Alles klar

6:42 clgv: clojurebot: aber sicher doch

6:42 clojurebot: I don't understand.

6:43 tsdh: clgv: What version? I've seen some discussion on the net that said only version of clojure 1.3 starting with alpha4 are affected.

6:45 clgv: tsdh: what exactly do you mean? I ran the current CCW with a clojure 1.3 alpha8 1-2 weeks ago

6:48 tsdh: clgv: Hm, ok. I use a very recent git version which I frequently update. But I'm pretty sure I have that clojure.repl is not loaded behavior since I've switched to 1.3 a few month ago.

6:49 clgv: Maybe CCW knows about this and executes (use 'clojure.repl) for you.

6:50 clgv: tsdh: likely. they don't simply start a clojure.main/repl but use nrepl

6:57 jonasen: Another proof reading / feedback request: https://github.com/jonase/mlx/wiki/Lottery

7:32 fliebel: Reading this, I'm wondering, will the work for Clojure, or is the JVM to bloated for that? http://www.lowendbox.com/blog/yes-you-can-run-18-static-sites-on-a-64mb-link-1-vps/

7:33 Running Clojure rockets to 80MB instantly, but even before Android, phones ran Java, so what gives?

7:34 Is it just a matter of choosing a smaller heap size?

7:40 * raek thinks that re-matches has a confusing name

7:40 * fliebel agrees with raek

7:41 raek: (re-find #"^...$" s) == (re-matches #"..." s)

8:46 mattmitchell: is it possible to have a defmacro define multiple argument sets?

8:46 stuartsierra: sure, just like a function

8:47 pdk: (doc defmacro)

8:47 clojurebot: "([name doc-string? attr-map? [params*] body] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params*] body) + attr-map?]); Like defn, but the resulting function name is declared as a macro and will be used as a macro by the compiler when it is called."

8:47 pdk: (defmacro foo ([arg1 arg2] ...) ([arg1 arg2 arg3] ...))

8:48 mattmitchell: strange, what do you guys think the problem might be with this: https://gist.github.com/1031351

8:53 raek: mattmitchell: you don't syntax-quote the single-arg version

8:54 so you call the macro itself during macro expansion time

8:54 ([body] `(with-server default-core ~body))

8:55 pdk: if one of the arguments in the 2 arg version is optional

8:55 it's not gonna have an easy time telling which to run :p

8:55 mattmitchell: ahh ok!

8:55 that makes sense

8:55 pdk: yeah, i thought about that too

8:56 pdk: maybe using a pre condition on the server-name arg?

8:59 raek: ,((fn ([_] :one) ([_ & _] :many)) 1)

8:59 clojurebot: :one

11:42 * raek wrote about what the re-matches function and friends actually do: http://blog.raek.se/2011/06/17/the-re-functions/

12:10 * clgv always wanted a clojar slingshot :D

12:10 clgv: s/clojar/clojure/

12:10 sexpbot: <clgv> always wanted a clojure slingshot :D

12:16 * gfrlog hates OWL. hates it.

12:17 clgv: hmmm is it safe to use 'use multiple times?

12:17 gfrlog: what would be unsafe about it?

12:17 clgv: I mean multiple times for the same namespace in the same file?

12:18 gfrlog: why would you do that? normally you utilize (:use) within the (ns) declaration anyhow

12:19 I don't think I've ever written (use ...) within a clojure file

12:20 clgv: I build a DSL where I only want to have one (:use ..) in (ns ..) to keep it short, but I will have to load some other files which I want to do via a setup macro that I have to use anyway.

12:20 but it seems safe to call 'use multiple times for the same namespace

12:21 gfrlog: it might well be that calling it the second time has no effect unless you give it the :reload option

12:21 clgv: &(doc use)

12:21 sexpbot: ⟹ "([& args]); Like 'require, but also refers to each lib's namespace using clojure.core/refer. Use :use in the ns macro in preference to calling this directly. 'use accepts additional options in libspecs: :exclude, :only, :rename. The arguments and semantics for :exc... http://gist.github.com/1031738

12:22 clgv: ,(doc use)

12:22 clojurebot: "([& args]); Like 'require, but also refers to each lib's namespace using clojure.core/refer. Use :use in the ns macro in preference to calling this directly. 'use accepts additional options in libspecs: :exclude, :only, :rename. The arguments and semantics for :exclude, :only, and :rename are the same as those documented for clojure.core/refer."

12:22 clgv: there is a :reload option?

12:23 gfrlog: yeah it's weird that it's not mentioned there. I use it in the repl all the time.

12:23 I bet the emacs folks don't need to bother with all that, so I can see how you might never need to know about it

12:24 clgv: I dont use emacs ;)

12:24 gfrlog: ~guards

12:24 clojurebot: SEIZE HIM!

12:24 * gfrlog is sorry

12:25 technomancy: ~botsnack

12:25 clojurebot: thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)

12:25 gfrlog: clojurebot needs to eat after a good seizing

12:26 arohner: does anyone have experience using c.c.lazy-xml on documents larger than RAM?

12:27 no_mind: is it possible to convert a lazy sequence to a list ?

12:28 gfrlog: ,(class (list* (range 10)))

12:28 clojurebot: clojure.lang.ChunkedCons

12:28 clgv: xml documents larger than RAM: for that document I wonder what the average information per symbol is

12:28 gfrlog: no_mind: for most purposes there's no distinction

12:29 clgv: 1/100 of a bit? :)

12:29 clgv: &(type (doall (range 10)))

12:29 sexpbot: ⟹ clojure.lang.LazySeq

12:29 clgv: humm no list obviously...

12:29 gfrlog: still a lazy seq, just already realized

12:29 ,(class (list* (range 100000000000)))

12:29 clojurebot: java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError

12:29 clgv: gfrlog: lol @ 1/100 bit ;)

12:29 gfrlog: ,(class (list* (range 1000000)))

12:29 clojurebot: clojure.lang.ChunkedCons

12:30 gfrlog: hmmmm

12:30 ,(class (list* (range)))

12:30 clojurebot: clojure.lang.ChunkedCons

12:30 gfrlog: weird

12:30 no_mind: gfrlog: I am generating nodes for enlive. Where I use map to geenrate nodes, I get clojure.lang.LazySeq@905c02 in the output

12:31 gfrlog: no_mind: if you're converting to string, try pr-str instead of str

12:31 ,((juxt pr-str str) (range 10))

12:31 clojurebot: ["(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)" "clojure.lang.LazySeq@9ebadac6"]

12:32 no_mind: gfrlog: nah, I need list not str

12:32 arohner: clgv: I can tell you the doc is 6GB compressed, 30GB uncompressed. that should give you an approximation :-)

12:33 gfrlog: 8/5 bits of info per byte of xml

12:33 clgv: arohner: uhhh less than 1/5 bit already ;) but probably much more

12:33 scgilardi: :reload is mentioned in the doc for require

12:33 clgv: err less^^

12:34 gfrlog: no_mind: I'm not sure what you mean by "get clojure.lang.LazySeq@905c02" then

12:35 scgilardi: ah hah -- right, because the doc for use refers to require

12:36 no_mind: gfrlog: the output shows clojure.lang.LazySeq@905c02 instead of html tags. Which means the lazy-seq is not returning the maps contained

12:37 gfrlog: no_mind: what is "the output"?

12:37 to me that implies you're converting the lazy seq to a string at some point

12:37 no_mind: gfrlog: leave it

12:39 gfrlog: ,(let [x (range 10)] (map str [x (list* x)]))

12:39 clojurebot: ("clojure.lang.LazySeq@9ebadac6" "(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)")

12:47 * gfrlog is disappointed in text-based communication

13:07 amalloy-: raek, tsdh: you can defmethod Object without worrying about order/overriding, because the multimethod dispatch will check isa? and find the most specific impl

13:16 Cozey: good day. Is there a way to add system-scoped jars to cake project?

13:18 amalloy-: Cozey: there might be, but you shouldn't

13:18 hm. my bouncer seems to be stealing the plain "amalloy" nick

13:19 gfrlog: well that was fun

13:19 amalloy-: gfrlog: that's bizarre. it won't let me. this is like being homeless

13:19 gfrlog: yes, just like it

13:19 halfprogrammer: gfrlog: amalloy: wat u guys up to?

13:19 Cozey: ok so how should I do this: I will deploy to a container, which provides javax.mail.* classes, but for running tests etc i should have this jar somehow added to the project.

13:20 gfrlog: halfprogrammer: mischief?

13:20 justinko: how do I get a symbol's id?

13:20 halfprogrammer: swapping identities

13:20 justinko: the "unique identifer"

13:20 dnolen: justinko: ?

13:20 amalloy: you can do anything with juxt

13:20 justinko: dnolen: the hash id

13:21 amalloy-: gfrlog: i guess i don't understand irc at all. i have that nick registered, even

13:21 dnolen: ,(hash 'foo)

13:21 clojurebot: -1634041172

13:21 dnolen: ,(hash 'bar)

13:21 clojurebot: -1634229906

13:21 gfrlog: amalloy-: I don't think the NickServ asked me for a pw; but I'm in ERC so I'm not really sure of anything

13:22 dnolen: justinko: I don't think those are guaranteed to be unique tho.

13:22 justinko: do you just want to check for object equality?

13:22 justinko: dnolen: sorry, I meant its function representation

13:22 halfprogrammer: gfrlog: you started using emacs!

13:23 gfrlog: amalloy-: I guess the only reasonably way to deal with this is for you to consider me your voice from this point forward. If you ever want to say anything, just let me know.

13:23 halfprogrammer: so far just for IRC

13:23 dnolen: justinko: ?

13:23 justinko: dnolen: the stuff that looks like adfs@fUre74s

13:23 gfrlog: man my fingers are always typing "reasonably" for "reasonable"

13:23 dnolen: justinko: that's just Clojure munging to generate class names for fns.

13:23 halfprogrammer: gfrlog: have fun

13:24 kryft: Are there fancier repls available than the standard + jline?

13:24 dnolen: kryft: cake

13:24 amalloy-: emacs

13:24 gfrlog: halfprogrammer: I gotta do things like google for how to switch buffers :(

13:24 hiredman: https://github.com/hiredman/Repl

13:25 justinko: dnolen: fns?

13:25 dnolen: justinko: functions.

13:25 hiredman: http://www.thelastcitadel.com/images/Screenshot-Repl.png

13:25 dnolen: ,(fn [])

13:25 clojurebot: #<sandbox$eval142$fn__143 sandbox$eval142$fn__143@92d6d2>

13:25 dnolen: justinko: every function generates a class.

13:25 halfprogrammer: gfrlog: ha ha ha. There is a w3m mode available in emacs for web surfing. use that :P

13:26 gfrlog: oh heavens

13:26 kryft: dnolen: Thanks.

13:26 justinko: dnolen: (def a "foo") <-- is there a unique identifier (or id) for this?

13:26 dnolen: for "a"

13:26 kryft: hiredman: Your repl attained perfection in January 2010?-)

13:27 hiredman: Yes

13:27 dnolen: justinko: if such a thing a did exist, what would it be useful for?

13:27 Cozey: ok, this is the answer to my question: http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-coping-with-sun-jars.html

13:27 hiredman: (fyi it spins up 23 threads at start)

13:27 chouser: justinko: like this? ## (var a)

13:27 sexpbot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: a in this context

13:27 * gfrlog thinks 23 threads sounds like a constant of string theory or something

13:28 chouser: bleh. #'user/a

13:28 gfrlog: ,(let [a 10] (var a))

13:28 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: a in this context

13:28 gfrlog: what are function parameters?

13:28 chouser: locals

13:28 not vars

13:28 amalloy: gfrlog: not easily accessible

13:28 gfrlog: locals is the formal term?

13:29 chouser: well. formally they're variables in the mathematical sense

13:29 gfrlog: but if we're discussing what (let ...) does, we would talk about locals?

13:29 chouser: but locals highlights both that they're immutable and that they always have lexical scope

13:30 That's the term Rich suggested once, and I like it.

13:30 gfrlog: sounds good to me

13:30 kryft: chouser: I love the final version of JoC, by the way. It inspired me to resume my learning project which was temporarily shelved before Christmas.

13:30 justinko: in Ruby, you can call .object_id on any object, and it is guaranteed to be unique

13:30 chouser: kryft: excellent!

13:31 hiredman: justinko: ick

13:31 justinko: (I ordered JoC last night)

13:31 amalloy: justinko: that doesn't really exist

13:31 hiredman: doing things that rely on pointer identity is icky

13:31 kryft: chouser: Actually that's what inspired my repl question, as I was just about to try the interactive examples in chapter three. :) (Or, er four, or whatever it was. I've had too much work and too little sleep.)

13:32 amalloy: hiredman: meh. often that's true, but eg keywords are interned and that's useful

13:32 seancorfield: raek: sorry i missed you re: cyclic dependency last night

13:32 dnolen: justinko: but what do people use actually .object_id for?

13:32 justinko: I'm just playing around in the repl and just wanted to see how things relate to each other: (def a "foo") (def b a)

13:32 gfrlog: amalloy: that's a performance thing, not a functionality thing

13:33 amalloy: gfrlog: i could probably be convinced, but that was not my previous understanding

13:33 seancorfield: the cyclic dependency was compiling file A (a log4j appender) which depended on file B which depended on ... which imported c3p0 which relied on log4j which tried to load the appender in its initializer (while it was still being compiled)

13:33 gfrlog: justinko: oh man, now you're going to have to find out about vars

13:34 justinko: dnolen: If there is an array of "foo"'s, and I want to get a specific "foo", I can find it via its object_id

13:34 gfrlog: amalloy: what was your understanding? My assumption is they are interned for faster comparisons

13:34 amalloy: justinko: you can use ##(identical? 'a 'a) to test for that sort of thing

13:34 sexpbot: ⟹ false

13:34 dnolen: justinko: but doesn't Ruby have an object identity equality operator?

13:34 gfrlog: ,(let [x "foo"] [(identical? x x) (identical? x "foo")])

13:34 clojurebot: [true true]

13:35 amalloy: gfrlog: i guess maybe that's all it is

13:35 i can't think of any other specific benefits

13:35 gfrlog: amalloy: although the results of that last call to clojurebot are making me question everything

13:35 justinko: yes, you don't really need to ever use object_id, I just use it to look at things "under the hood"

13:36 amalloy: gfrlog: java interns strings in some circumstances but not all

13:36 gfrlog: amalloy: compiler optimization?

13:36 gko: How to I change the value of clojure.java.javadoc/*core-java-api* in user.clj?

13:36 gfrlog: ,(let [is-foo? #(= % "foo")] (is-foo? "foo"))

13:36 clojurebot: true

13:36 amalloy: &(let [x "foo" y (str "fo" "o")] (identical? x y))

13:36 sexpbot: ⟹ false

13:36 dnolen: justinko: yeah there's nothing like that in Clojure, tho as you say, it's not really a useful feature.

13:36 gfrlog: ah hah

13:36 there it goes

13:36 chouser: sybols aren't interned the way keywords are, because they support metadata

13:37 but Java is free to intern strings

13:37 amalloy: gfrlog: iirc java interns any string that appears as a constant in a source file, basically

13:37 gfrlog: that is sensible

13:37 amalloy: strings you compute on the fly aren't interned

13:37 chouser: if anything, all this shows why you generally don't want to be using 'identical?'

13:38 justinko: ,#(symbol "foo")

13:38 clojurebot: #<sandbox$eval154$fn__155 sandbox$eval154$fn__155@67e92a>

13:38 dnolen: chouser: except when you need to ;)

13:38 chouser: right-o

13:38 amalloy: justinko: just the , will do. or & if you want to talk to sexpbot; no #

13:39 the ##(+ 1 2) notation is for evals embedded in conversation, and needs two #s

13:39 sexpbot: ⟹ 3

13:40 justinko: ,#(keyword "foo")

13:40 clojurebot: #<sandbox$eval158$fn__159 sandbox$eval158$fn__159@b11287>

13:40 justinko: that's guaranteed to be unique, right?

13:40 amalloy: uh

13:40 as long as, again, you stop putting # in there

13:40 #(...) is defining a new anonymous function and then throwing it away, so it will be different every time

13:40 justinko: amalloy: I meant to do that

13:41 gfrlog: Object#hashCode says it usually returns the object's address, if not overridden

13:41 justinko: ohhh okay

13:41 amalloy: ,[#(keyword "foo"), #(keyword "foo)]

13:41 clojurebot: EOF while reading string

13:41 dnolen: justinko: but it's generally overidden in Clojure.

13:41 amalloy: ,[#(keyword "foo"), #(keyword "foo")]

13:41 clojurebot: [#<sandbox$eval162$fn__163 sandbox$eval162$fn__163@157011e> #<sandbox$eval162$fn__165 sandbox$eval162$fn__165@ac8360>]

13:41 gfrlog: ,(.hashCode (new Object))

13:41 clojurebot: 3411100

13:41 amalloy: dnolen: you can get at it anyway though

13:42 i think it's in System

13:42 hiredman: justinko: are you sure you just don't want to call gensym?

13:42 gfrlog: ,(System.identityHashCode :foo)

13:42 clojurebot: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: System.identityHashCode

13:42 gfrlog: ,(System/identityHashCode :foo)

13:42 clojurebot: 25476649

13:42 amalloy: &(let [x "test"] [(hash x) (System/identityHashCode x)])

13:42 sexpbot: ⟹ [3556498 2933385]

13:42 gfrlog: how do I browse my previous statements in ERC?

13:43 amalloy: M-p, M-n

13:43 gfrlog: like up-arrow in other clients

13:43 very good

13:43 thx

13:43 amalloy: gfrlog: that's another nice thing about emacs. i don't use erc, but M-p is used all over so i figured it'd be right

13:44 Scriptor: previous/next sentence

13:44 gfrlog: funny I can loop back to the beginning of the history with M-n

13:44 amalloy: Scriptor: except when it does something else :P

13:44 gfrlog: see stuff I said yesterday

13:45 Scriptor: ooh, that reminds me

13:45 is there a nice way to view all the clojars besides http://clojars.org/repo? Alternatively is there a clojure lib for scraping clojars?

13:45 technomancy: Scriptor: there's lein-search

13:45 clojurebot: Huh?

13:46 technomancy: it uses lucene rather than scraping in recent versions

13:46 https://github.com/technomancy/lein-search/tree/lucene if you are not on the latest from git

13:46 works with other mvn repos too

13:46 halfprogrammer: gfrlog: C-h m - This will list down all the possible key combinations for the current buffer

13:47 gfrlog: C-h k - Takes a input key combination and will tell you what it will do.

13:47 amalloy: halfprogrammer: untrue

13:47 Scriptor: technomancy: thanks!

13:47 amalloy: C-h m displays mode-specific bindings; C-h b displays all

13:48 halfprogrammer: I said for the current buffer. So whatever is applicable for the current modes :)

13:49 amalloy: halfprogrammer: that wouldn't list C-b, for example

13:49 granted he might not want that

13:49 halfprogrammer: hmm

13:52 gfrlog: can I use VIM from emacs?

13:52 Scriptor: supposedly

13:52 arunkn: why would you want that?

13:52 gfrlog: then I would know how to use emacs

13:52 amalloy: gfrlog: (1) M-x shell, (2) vim, (3) cry

13:53 arunkn: gfrlog: (4) use emacs again

13:53 gfrlog: I use vim because an old mathematician/CS-prof told me to

13:53 justinko: dnolen: you're right, hash isn't guaranteed to be unique: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/909843/java-how-to-get-the-unique-id-of-an-object-which-overrides-hashcode

13:54 amalloy: srsly though even if you love vim that would make you cry. emacs/shell will mess up all the vim bindings

13:54 &(hash "x")

13:54 sexpbot: ⟹ 120

13:54 amalloy: &(hash 120)

13:54 sexpbot: ⟹ 120

13:54 Scriptor: isn't there an emacs plugin for vim?

13:54 arunkn: I use vim when I am not using lisping.

13:54 mostly

13:54 amalloy: Scriptor: viper

13:54 gfrlog: Object#hashCode isn't even guaranteed to be the address; docs just say it probably is

13:54 amalloy: oh, the other way around

13:54 kryft: Any vimpulse users here?

13:54 gfrlog: arunkn: it is possible to do both?

13:55 Scriptor: gfrlog: it's weird when you switch back

13:55 and you'll always be worse at one than the other, I think

13:55 halfprogammer: somewhat

13:55 gfrlog: Scriptor: it strikes me as being similar to trying to maintain qwerty and dvorak skills

13:55 or ruby and python :)

13:56 halfprogammer: sometimes i confuse the key bindings. but mostly I am okay with it

13:57 Scriptor: gfrlog: or xbox and ps3? :)

13:57 gfrlog: yes

13:57 or....pants and kilts?

13:57 halfprogammer: ha ha ha

13:57 Scriptor: but yea, I definitely still prefer vim for non-lispy stuff

13:57 (non-lispy coding)

13:58 gfrlog: Scriptor: what advantages does it have? I don't know of any, I'm just locked in

13:58 other than familiarity when shelling into an HPUX machine

13:58 amalloy: gfrlog: the main thing i hear cited is modal editing

13:59 aaelony: what is the most idiomatic way to "loop" over 2 or more collections in a nested fashion? Is something like (map #(myfn) %1) list) extensible to not only an i from 1 to n but also i & j, or even i & j & k ?

13:59 Scriptor: gfrlog: for emacs? The best sum-up I've heard is that emacs is a better dev environment, while vim is the better text editor (in terms of actually moving around making edits)

13:59 halfprogammer: gfrlog: you can edit things very fast. Has excellent plugin support. And as amalloy said, it has modal editing.

13:59 amalloy: aaelony: ##(doc for) is great

13:59 sexpbot: ⟹ "Macro ([seq-exprs body-expr]); List comprehension. Takes a vector of one or more binding-form/collection-expr pairs, each followed by zero or more modifiers, and yields a lazy sequence of evaluations of expr. Collections are iterated in a nested fashion, rightmost ... http://gist.github.com/1031908

13:59 gfrlog: if I abandon vim I could quit binding my capslocks to escape

14:00 amalloy: gfrlog: and bind it to ctl instead

14:00 gfrlog: haha

14:00 halfprogammer: gfrlog: it is especially useful when you are doing a ssh over a 56kbps line where echoing back the key you pressed takes abt 1 sec

14:00 amalloy: &(for [x (range 4) y (range 4)] [x y]) ; aaelony

14:00 sexpbot: ⟹ ([0 0] [0 1] [0 2] [0 3] [1 0] [1 1] [1 2] [1 3] [2 0] [2 1] [2 2] [2 3] [3 0] [3 1] [3 2] [3 3])

14:00 Scriptor: heh, one nice thing about windows-on-macbook is that my thumb is always on C

14:01 aaelony: excellent, thanks! I like avoiding loop & recur :)

14:01 amalloy: aaelony: for is extremely powerful. read the docstring to see its other cool features

14:02 halfprogammer: am not too familiar with common lisp myself. but why does clojure not have CL style loop?

14:02 aaelony: amalloy: thanks, re-reading the documentation. Often the docs are written in a way that takes me a while to truly understand what the docs are intending to describe.

14:02 technomancy: halfprogammer: mostly because working with sequences is just more pleasant

14:04 halfprogammer: Its funny when CL books (land of lisp and practical common lisp) dedicate one full chapter to describe what a loop construct can do

14:04 amalloy: halfprogammer: probably not enough chapters

14:04 hiredman: can cl's loop execute in parallel?

14:06 dnolen: halfprogammer: from what I understood CL's loop is there because TCO is not a requirement for CL. Clojure has lazy-sequences / recur.

14:06 halfprogammer: hiredman: no idea

14:06 hiredman: answer is: no because the cl spec doesn't deal with threads at all

14:07 setting aside the imperative nature of cl's loop

14:07 amalloy: dnolen: that seems overly specific; i think it's there because it lets you express a lot of notions compactly, much like clojure's for

14:07 my main gripe is its imperative nature, as well

14:08 dnolen: amalloy: why? loop does what map/filter/reduce does in Clojure in constant space.

14:08 hiredman: clojurebot: what can the hyperspec tell us about this problem?

14:08 clojurebot: hyperspec is not applicable

14:09 hiredman: clojurebot: please solve my problems using the knowledge contained in the hyperspec

14:09 clojurebot: hyperspec is not applicable

14:11 chouser: When suggesting new features for 'for' or 'doseq', rhickey has at times pointed to the size of the docs for CL's LOOP as sufficient reason for why we don't want it.

14:12 hiredman: mmmm

14:12 chouser: hm. that was pithy and succinct in my head. oh well.

14:12 halfprogammer: hmm

14:13 amalloy: chouser: pithy, succint, concise, and terse?

14:13 chouser: amalloy: and also short

14:19 jweiss_: in a construct like (take-while #(not (zip/end? %)) (iterate f root)), where f does stuff with the tree and returns zip/next, the seq stops one too soon. it doesn't process the last node. anyone know how to fix that?

14:20 hiredman: have f return [node (zip/next node)]

14:22 gfrlog: amalloy: how'd you get your nick back?

14:22 amalloy: gfrlog: went around znc and logged into freenode directly

14:22 when Raynes wakes up or whatever, i'll make him explain irc to me again

14:24 amalloy-`: amalloy: maybe you could have used juxt?

14:24 gfrlog: so sorry

14:24 arohner: chouser: did your lazy-xml improvements get published anywhere?

14:25 halfprogammer: gfrlog: http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/irctutorial.html

14:25 amalloy: i hope there's an etiquette section in there :P

14:26 gfrlog: halfprogammer: earlier amalloy was on the alternate nick "amalloy-" and for some reason I was able to switch to "amalloy" but he wasn't

14:26 Scriptor: gfrlog: it didn't ask you to auth with nickserv?

14:26 gfrlog: Scriptor: not that I noticed, which I thought was weird. But I'm on ERC so it's possible I didn't see it

14:27 Scriptor: the promp will show up in the mini-buffer thing at the bottom

14:29 chouser: arohner: they're wip in clojure.data.cml

14:29 clojure.data.xml

14:29 halfprogammer: gfrlog: http://www.magic-league.com/play/register_nick.php

14:29 gfrlog: ^ how to register your nick

14:29 gfrlog: halfprogammer: yeah, both amalloy and I have done that

14:29 amalloy: halfprogammer: i get the feeling you're providing helpful advice to people who aren't here

14:30 gfrlog: amalloy: ?

14:30 amalloy: gfrlog: in the sense that this would be cool stuff to know but isn't really relevant to the issues you and i were having

14:30 gfrlog: gotcha

14:31 arohner: chouser: thanks

14:31 halfprogammer: amalloy: I thought you have not registred your nick and gfrlog was able to use your nick. My bad.

14:31 amalloy: halfprogammer: my nick is registered

14:31 which is why i don't understand that gfrlog could use it

14:31 and i couldn't :P

14:32 gfrlog: halfprogammer: the weird parts are 1) he IS registered and 2) he couldn't switch to it himself

14:32 Scriptor: I think gfrlog just missed the nickserv password prompt, it's not very obvious

14:32 gfrlog: anybody know any registered nicks I could try?

14:32 Scriptor: you can switch to a registered nick but only temporarily, I think

14:32 amalloy: Scriptor: if you can "miss" the password prompt it's not really securing anything, is it?

14:32 i see

14:32 halfprogammer: try mine

14:33 gfrlog: halfprogammer: somebody not in the room I mean

14:33 erc automatically appends a punctuation apparently

14:33 halfprogammer: hmm

14:33 Scriptor: gfrlog: try Scriptonomicon

14:33 alt nick of mine

14:33 I think

14:33 Scriptonomicon: hmm

14:33 halfprogammer: hey, try rhickey :P

14:33 Scriptonomicon: I think something happened

14:34 Scriptor: alright, now is there a prompt at the very bottom?

14:34 Scriptonomicon: nothing obvious

14:34 lemme check the buffer list

14:34 Scriptor: hmm, maybe I forgot to group it

14:34 Scriptonomicon: or just wait a minute and see if it kicks me out :)

14:34 C-x o doesn't switch to anything...

14:34 no_mind: I have a map expresion which calls a function f returning map. The result of map expression is a sequence of maps as required. The problem is, for certain conditions, the function f called by map returns a sequence of maps instead of map. How do I ensure that the maps in the sequence of maps returned by f are merged with other maps ?

14:34 Scriptor: Scriptonomicon: that switches windows

14:34 try C-x b

14:35 jcromartie: How do I make "binding" play well with parallelized routines

14:35 Scriptonomicon: not seeing anything

14:35 gfrlog`: dangit

14:35 amalloy: no_mind: make it always return a sequance of maps, sometimes only one item long

14:35 jcromartie: hypothetically: I have a web app, and I want to render parts of it in parallel, and I use (binding [*user* current-user] (pmap render parts))

14:36 Scriptor: gfrlog`: you do see a horizontal blank space right below your buffer, right?

14:36 amalloy: "sequance". incredible

14:36 jcromartie: instead of passing all of the interesting "global" (really per-request) special variables in to each function that might be interested in them

14:36 jweiss_: hiredman, sorry, your earlier suggestion you meant (take-while (fn [[i j]] (not= i j)) (iterate f root))

14:36 gfrlog`: Scriptor: yes

14:36 no_mind: amalloy: ok

14:36 Scriptor: and nothing showed up in there?

14:36 gfrlog`: no

14:36 amalloy: &(doc bound-fn) is often helpful for that, jcromartie

14:36 sexpbot: ⟹ "Macro ([& fntail]); Returns a function defined by the given fntail, which will install the same bindings in effect as in the thread at the time bound-fn was called. This may be used to define a helper function which runs on a different thread, but needs the same bindings in place."

14:37 Scriptor: weird

14:37 jcromartie: awesome, amalloy

14:37 gfrlog`: there's a "[i]" thing in the buffer status bar that I think highlighted when I first switched to Scriptonomicon

14:37 jcromartie: also http://cemerick.com/2009/11/03/be-mindful-of-clojures-binding/

14:37 Scriptor: gfrlog`: right click it and it'll switch you to that

14:37 gfrlog`: amalloy: that is a terribly interesting function

14:37 Scriptor: I'm using emacs over SSH, not sure right-clicking will be effective

14:37 halfprogammer: halfasleep. bfn

14:37 gfrlog`: didn't do anything

14:38 Scriptor: ah

14:42 gfrlog: so I guess it's probably my fault with ERC. still doesn't explain why amalloy couldn't switch though

14:42 amalloy: gfrlog: i assume that's an issue with my znc config somehow

14:47 arohner: chouser: I'm still seeing memory usage go up when doing (dorun (pull-parser/lazy-source-seq))

14:52 amalloy: arohner: of course memory usage will go up. it's using memory. but it will be memory that's eligible for garbage collection, in theory

14:57 zerokarmaleft: https://gist.github.com/1032035 <= is this a result of floating point error or what?

14:57 opqdonut: no

14:58 the latter predicate is false for 2.725

14:58 so no numbers are taken

14:58 you might've been looking for filter

14:58 zerokarmaleft: oh derp

14:58 opqdonut: or (take-while #(<= % upper) (drop-while #(< lower %) measurements))

14:59 chouser: arohner: I've got unit tests in there that are meant to demonstrate that xml events and nodes are not being help unnecessarily.

15:00 arohner: if you can find or write a test like that which fails, that would be a huge help.

15:01 arohner: I haven't gotten around to testing large inputs yet, but in the small it seems to be working in several cases where it used to hold onto too much.

15:04 zakwilson: Is there a way to get ClojureQL to use fully qualified column names all the time? I want to be able to joins on tables that have columns of the same names and get back maps that aren't too hard to use in updates.

15:28 mattmitchell: how do i test if a variable is bound or unbound?

15:28 amalloy: &(doc bound?)

15:28 sexpbot: ⟹ "([& vars]); Returns true if all of the vars provided as arguments have any bound value, root or thread-local. Implies that deref'ing the provided vars will succeed. Returns true if no vars are provided."

15:29 chouser: huh. seems weird that's variatic

15:29 amalloy: mattmitchell: just too simple sometimes, eh?

15:29 chouser: you'd prefer [vars], or [var]?

15:31 mattmitchell: amalloy: :) well I tried that, but seeing the docs there, I noticed that it takes a var, so I had to do (bound? (var my-un-bound-var))

15:31 amalloy: indeed, or #'my-var

15:31 mattmitchell: amalloy: ahh ok coo

15:32 cool that is

15:32 hiredman: only one usage in src/clj with a single arg

15:35 clojurebot: unix vm is http://www.cs.gmu.edu/cne/itcore/virtualmachine/unix.htm

15:35 clojurebot: You don't have to tell me twice.

15:36 gfrlog: hiredman: does clojurebot keep old bindings?

15:36 hiredman: old bindings?

15:37 gfrlog: you just gave it a definition right?

15:37 bound "unix vm" to that url?

15:38 hiredman: yes, clojurebot stores them in a derby db on disk

15:38 gfrlog: and they can be overwritten?

15:38 hiredman: they can be deleted and added to

15:38 gfrlog: hmm

15:38 hiredman: (it is effectively a multi-map)

15:39 gfrlog: ah, so it gives a random value?

15:39 ~unix vm

15:39 clojurebot: unix vm is http://www.cs.gmu.edu/cne/itcore/virtualmachine/unix.htm

15:39 hiredman: yes

15:39 gfrlog: okay. then my question is less important.

15:39 I thought it would be worrying that good information gets overwritten

15:39 hiredman: and you and specify other relations besides 'is'

15:40 clojurebot: two things |are| more than one thing

15:40 clojurebot: You don't have to tell me twice.

15:40 gfrlog: clojurebot: unix vm isn't http://www.yahoo.com

15:40 clojurebot: it's a UNIX system! I know this!

15:40 hiredman: clojurebot: two things?

15:40 clojurebot: two things are more than one thing

15:40 gfrlog: ~two things

15:40 clojurebot: two things are more than one thing

15:40 hiredman: for relationships besides 'is' you use the pipe syntax

15:40 gfrlog: so just for grammar?

15:41 hiredman: for now

15:41 gfrlog: cool

15:42 Evious: Are there any good guides/tutorials/references about functional programming in Clojure? Specifically, the macros/conventions/tricks developed for said purpose?

15:42 hiredman: clojurebot's data layer is kind of disgusting

15:42 gfrlog: :)

15:43 Scriptor: wait, clojurebot can be trained?

15:43 gfrlog: clojurebot: Scriptor |doesn't| know you can be trained

15:43 clojurebot: You don't have to tell me twice.

15:43 gfrlog: clojurebot: Scriptor?

15:43 clojurebot: Scriptor doesn't know you can be trained

15:44 gfrlog: aw dang

15:44 Scriptor: gfrlog: sit

15:44 * gfrlog is already sitting

15:44 Scriptor: I guess you might need to indicate what 'you' is referring to

15:45 gfrlog: it's got a bit of templating I think...at least for nicks

16:00 cemerick: hiredman: derby? How quaint. :-)

16:01 I remember killing myself trying to get cloudscape working back in the day.

16:10 mattmitchell: I need to write a test, that proves that a clojure fn calls a method on a java object. How can I do this?

16:11 opqdonut: produce a mock object that logs calls and then delegates them to the real object

16:11 and inject it

16:12 tsdh: Are java enum constants not constant things I can use with `case'?

16:12 mattmitchell: opqdonut: how can i create a java mock in clojure?

16:12 opqdonut: use, e.g., reify

16:12 hiredman: tsdh: java enums are, if I recall, ints

16:13 but there are a couple of different ways to use them together with case

16:13 tsdh: hiredman: No, they are basically singleton objects I think.

16:13 hiredman: tsdh: incorrect

16:14 tsdh: hiredman: Really, I mean you can have enums with constructors and methods...

16:14 hiredman: sure, but each "constant" is infact an int

16:15 tsdh: hiredman: Hm, but then, why does my (case Foo/BAR 1 Foo/Baz 2 (throw (RuntimeException))) always throw?

16:17 amalloy: hiredman: those statements stopped being true in java 1.5, or else you're being misunderstood

16:18 hiredman: amalloy: no kidding

16:18 amalloy: java has enums, which are basically classes with N "singleton" instances, one for each enum constant

16:18 tsdh: From the JLS: An enum constant defines an instance of the enum type.

16:19 hiredman: well, then, carry on

16:19 amalloy: they're kinda a pain to use from clojure though, i believe

16:19 tsdh: Ok, so that means I cannot use enum constants in case, right?

16:19 amalloy: tsdh: there's an open ticket on jira somewhere discussing that

16:21 cemerick: Enum support will probably never land in case

16:21 tsdh: you can get around it to some extent by doing something like: http://cemerick.com/2010/08/03/enhancing-clojures-case-to-evaluate-dispatch-values/

16:22 amalloy: cemerick: when is the SoC survey closing? i need to see the results!

16:22 cemerick: amalloy: Monday

16:22 Got to give the weekend tinkerers time to get in

16:22 tsdh: cemerick: Oh, great! I'll use that.

16:23 gfrlog: ls

16:23 whoops

16:23 well that could have been worse

16:23 cemerick: tsdh: Heed the note at the top of that post. :-)

16:23 amalloy: [sudo] Password for gfrlog:

16:23 gfrlog: iamrhickey123

16:23 Bronsa: llol

16:23 mattmitchell: hmm, so I have an instance of a java object. Using reify, I'm not sure if that will allow me to mock a method on that object?

16:23 gfrlog: aw dang

16:24 amalloy: mattmitchell: reify only supports interfaces

16:24 mattmitchell: amalloy: ahh ok. Is there a way to mock a java class instance?

16:24 cemerick: tsdh: it works fine for me for enums, but if you AOT code that uses case+ and attempt to run it with a different version of an enum class on the classpath, bad things may happen

16:24 tsdh: cemerick: My enums come from an external java library that is in a jar. So no AOT here.

16:24 amalloy: your path of least resistance is probably to proxy the class, but someone else probably knows a "better" way

16:24 mattmitchell: amalloy: rather, a method on a java object?

16:25 cemerick: tsdh: AOT of your Clojure code; has nothing to do with the Java library

16:25 raek: mattmitchell: if the code you need to test accesses the object though an interface, it's very easy to make a mock object that implements the same interface

16:25 amalloy: &(.size (proxy [java.util.ArrayList] [] (size [] 10)))

16:25 sexpbot: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var null/null is unbound.

16:25 cemerick: So, if you AOT your Clojure with v1 of the java lib, but then run the AOT'd classfiles with v1.1 of the java lib, things *may* break

16:25 amalloy: ,(.size (proxy [java.util.ArrayList] [] (size [] 10)))

16:25 clojurebot: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var null/null is unbound.

16:25 tsdh: cemerick: I only compile one different namespace containing only gen-classes for some custom exceptions. That's ok, isn't it?

16:26 amalloy: hrm. anyyway mattmitchell, that's kinda-vaguely how you might mock out a method

16:26 opqdonut: mattmitchell: unfortunately there's no easy way if the method is not in an interface

16:27 cemerick: tsdh: Sounds like it — just make sure the code that's using case+ isn't being transitively included in the AOT.

16:27 mattmitchell: ok yeah, this is just a class with no interface

16:27 http://lucene.apache.org/solr/api/org/apache/solr/core/CoreContainer.html

16:27 opqdonut: but being able to unit-test things like that means that you need to structure your code in a specific way

16:27 tsdh: cemerick: I added a notice so that I'll never forget.

16:27 cemerick: heh

16:29 fliebel: cemerick: Do you have any fancy visualization plans for the survey?

16:30 cemerick: fliebel: Nothing beyond what I did for the first one.

16:30 Unless someone has other grand ideas.

16:31 I remember seeing something equivalent to a mod_ring floating around a few months ago. Anyone have a link handy?

16:34 tsdh: cemerick: I get a compile error with your case+ (http://pastebin.com/CMzVs8G5)

16:34 Scriptor: tsdh: getting an unknown paste id on that

16:35 fliebel: cemerick: Really? Awesome! I need to compare that to ring-fastcgi.

16:35 tsdh: Scriptor: I don't. Maybe your IRC client copies the trailing ) ?

16:35 http://pastebin.com/CMzVs8G5

16:35 justinko: multi-methods are blowing my mind

16:36 cemerick: tsdh: funky; what if you pull (EdgeDirection/INOUT nil) out into two clauses?

16:36 tsdh: which version of Clojure?

16:36 tsdh: cemerick: Tried that, same error. I use 1.3 from git.

16:36 cemerick: State as of yesterday.

16:37 Scriptor: tsdh: oh, yes it does

16:37 damnit ERC

16:37 and damnit eyes for checking for that and still not seeing it earlier

16:37 tsdh: Scriptor: I use rcirc which DTRT.

16:37 cemerick: tsdh: hrm, I suspect the macro doesn't work under 1.3 — I've never seen an error like that before.

16:37 fliebel: cemerick: This was my answer to the all-in-one server: http://pepijndevos.nl/the-perfect-server/

16:38 Scriptor: cemerick: I found a link about using a WAR file and using apache as a proxy to tomcat, assuming that's probably not it though?

16:38 cemerick: fliebel: yours is what I was thinking of :-)

16:38 Scriptor: ^^

16:39 fliebel: cemerick: Oh, I thought you had something in the other half of the venn.

16:40 amalloy: justinko: i find myself wanting to replace every if/cond with a multimethod. kinda overdoing it though

16:40 Scriptor: ah, ring_fastcgi

16:42 gfrlog: fliebel: clever email obfuscation

16:42 fliebel: gfrlog: You mean the rot13? :) I had one in Clojure as well...

16:43 gfrlog: fliebel: I like it because to a bot it still looks like a plain email

16:43 fliebel: gfrlog: Yea, I figured I should write a DSL that can be expressed in valid email addresses.

16:44 gfrlog: unless it checks tlds...I've never heard of .pbz

16:45 fliebel: gfrlog: Would be fun to set up that as an email and see how much spam it gets :)

16:46 gfrlog: pbz is the cTLD of the country Peanut Butterz

16:46 * gfrlog doesn't think cTLD is actually a term

16:47 tsdh: cemerick: Really strange. The expansion looks correct to me. http://pastebin.com/THwz4N2S

16:48 cemerick: But haveing the code in front of me, I can at least understand the error message.

16:49 amalloy: tsdh: you can't put objects in code :P

16:49 ie, the expansion does NOT look good, because you would never type #<EdgeDirection INOUT> in code yourself

16:50 tsdh: amalloy: Exactly

16:50 and the solution is also provided in the error message...

16:50 fliebel: gfrlog: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.bz

16:50 gfrlog: ,(read-string "#<Foo BAR>")

16:50 clojurebot: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: Unreadable form

16:50 amalloy: yes, although i don't know that defining a print-dup resolves the issue?

16:51 gfrlog: ah ccTLD is the term

16:52 * fliebel is tempted to register http://tznvyp.bz/

16:52 amalloy: tsdh: fwiw, (fn [i] (normal-edge? i)) is just normal-edge?, and the next is just (complement normal-edge?)

16:52 tsdh: amalloy: indeed.

16:52 * gfrlog loves it when clojure does that

16:52 cemerick: tsdh: The more sane thing would be to, when it's clear that clauses are known to be enums, code is emitted to match on corresponding enums, and not the enum values themselves.

16:52 amalloy: gfrlog: does what?

16:53 gfrlog: amalloy: lets you refactor your code purely by deleting things

16:53 cemerick: I think that's how ataggart was making enums work in his early 1.3 case patches, anyway.

16:53 gfrlog: probably only the first of the two is an example of that

16:54 mattmitchell: is there a way to alias a var so that it points to another var in a diff namespace?

16:54 tsdh: cemerick: First I've thought wrapping a (binding [*print-dup* true] ...) around the case would help, but that's not true. What's a "corresponding enum"?

16:56 Ah, I need to add a (defmethod print-dup ...)

16:56 cemerick: tsdh: case+ would determine that the dispatch values evaluate to enums, and emit a case form that used symbols for those enums instead of the enums themselves. So an enum Foo/Bar would turn into 'some.package.Foo/Bar.

16:57 tsdh: I think the print-dup hint is a red herring rabbit hole in this case. :-)

16:57 tsdh: :-)

16:58 cemerick: tsdh: I have that blog post in my browser-tab-backlog; might take a whack at revising the code therein to be 1.3-friendly next week-ish.

16:58 tsdh: I'll check your blog.

16:59 mattmitchell: Hmm, I have a main ns. I want require other ns's and alias to a short name within the main ns. The problem is, my other ns's need a var in the main set in order to function. If I require the other ns's in the main ns, then "use" the main ns in the others, I get "java.lang.Exception: Cyclic load dependency"

16:59 cemerick: tsdh: what, you don't subscribe already?

16:59 mattmitchell: ^ I know that sounds confusing

16:59 * cemerick is broken-hearted

16:59 cemerick: ;-)

17:03 gfrlog: ah good now I'm not the only one doing that

17:04 speaking of TLDs, the internets say ICANN will approve commercial TLDs

17:06 hiredman: clojurebot: destructuring

17:06 clojurebot: destructuring is http://clojure.org/special_forms#let

17:09 gfrlog: amalloy: figure it out yet?

17:09 amalloy: gfrlog: yes

20:00 cwmaguire: Is there a function to run multiple functions with a parameter? e.g. (for [f [+ - *]] (f 1))

20:02 mids: cwmaguire: juxt? http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/juxt

20:03 cwmaguire: of course!

20:03 thanks

20:03 I'm rusty

20:05 mids: ,((juxt + - /) 4 3)

20:05 clojurebot: [7 1 4/3]

20:11 __name__: Everyone loves juxt.

20:17 amalloy: __name__: and if you don't, we'll (juxt draw quarter) you

21:08 davekong: I clojure-contrib.jar to my classpath but am having trouble loading the namespace at the REPL, what should I be typing to add e.g. the seq namespace or say all of them

21:10 amalloy: davekong: you can't require them all at once; you need to specify each *namespace* you want, not each *library* (whereas in project.clj you specify at a library level)

21:11 so eg (use 'clojure.contrib.seq) (separate even? (range 10))

21:16 davekong: amalloy: thanks

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