#clojure log - Feb 20 2011

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0:01 brehaut: ekoontz: may i suggest also alias emacs="/Applications/Emacs.app/Contents/MacOS/Emacs -nw"

0:01 so that your terminal emacs is the same as your gui emacs

0:02 ekoontz: hmm it's still showing 22.3.1

0:04 oh i still had one running in a terminal duh

0:04 Patrick-DC: Hey guys, who uses SLIME with swank-clojure?

0:17 * scottj raises a hand

0:22 Patrick-DC: are you able to compile from emacs

0:22 using C-c C-k?

0:22 scottj: yeah

0:22 Patrick-DC: for some reason it's not working for me

0:22 I can eval

0:22 but not compile

0:22 scottj: what version of slime?

0:22 Patrick-DC: 1.2.0

0:22 i think

0:23 scottj: that's probably a swank-clojure version num

0:24 anyway, try using latest swank-clojure and whatever slime version is recommended in the readme

0:24 ekoontz: going to set up swank-clojure right now

0:25 Patrick-DC: it's an unofficial slime from github

0:25 nablaone's

0:25 tomoj: the version of slime in elpa works with swank-clojure 1.3.0-SNAPSHOT

0:26 scottj: Patrick-DC: if it has a commit 605f930 from oct 15 2009 that's what I'm using as my head

0:31 Patrick-DC: I just figured out how to use emacs package manager

0:31 this is heaven

0:32 before I was linking in the emacs lisp files for

0:32 swank-clojure and slime via .bashrc

0:32 it was so inelegant

0:32 this is utterly beautiful

0:32 scottj: via .bashrc not .emacs?

0:32 Patrick-DC: I was using both

0:33 ekoontz: Patrick-DC can you install swank-clojure through the emacs package manager?

0:33 scottj: install swank clojure through lein

0:33 Patrick-DC: Hell yea

0:33 tomoj: there is a swank-clojure package in elpa, but you probably don't need it

0:33 ekoontz: scotty: yeah i did lein install swank-clojure 1.3.0-SNAPSHOT

0:33 tomoj: slime and slime-repl there work with clojure, though

0:34 it also has a decent clojure-mode

0:34 but the paredit is too old

0:34 Patrick-DC: haha there's a facebook package for emacs

0:34 ekoontz: that's cool

0:34 brehaut: does it say 'stop procreating and code!' ?

0:35 Patrick-DC: but unfortunately no lein with the emacs package manager

0:35 (haha (brehaut))

0:35 tomoj: lein install is just a wget and chmod and doesn't really have anything to do with emacs, does it?

0:35 Patrick-DC: yep

0:36 just link it in with .bashrc

0:36 scottj: what do you mean by linking with .bashrc?

0:37 Patrick-DC: well, since it isn't in my distro repository

0:37 I wgeted it

0:37 ekoontz: yeah so i followed https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure

0:37 Patrick-DC: and added:

0:37 ekoontz: but emacs (M-x slime-connect) doesn't work

0:37 Patrick-DC: export PATH=$PATH:~/opt/leiningen

0:38 to my .bashrc file in my home folder

0:38 tomoj: ekoontz: did you run `lein swank`?

0:38 Patrick-DC: ya

0:38 ekoontz: tomoj: or is it ~/.lein/bin/swank-clojure

0:38 tomoj: I don't have that

0:39 Patrick-DC: they're different setups, but they both work

0:39 ekoontz: that's what https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure says to do

0:39 scottj: that will be ok for basic testing but not for developing a project with dependencies

0:39 tomoj: oh, didn't know it could do that

0:39 Patrick-DC: https://github.com/jochu/swank-clojure

0:40 scottj: tomoj: fairly recent i think

0:40 tomoj: do you see "user=> Connection opened on local port 4005" etc?

0:40 scottj: ekoontz: did M-x slime-connect say slime was there and had problems or is slime not loaded?

0:40 ekoontz: scottj: M-x sl<tab> doesn't give you slime-connect

0:40 scottj: ekoontz: you installed it with elpa?

0:40 ekoontz: no match

0:40 elpa? what's that

0:41 scottj: how did you install slime?

0:41 Patrick-DC: elpa is the emacs package manager

0:41 ekoontz: oh ok that's what i'm missing i think (slime)

0:41 trying installing slime through elpa

0:41 scottj: ekoontz: read connecting with SLIME in readme of url you posted

0:41 Patrick-DC: http://tromey.com/elpa/

0:41 ekoontz: that's a lot guys, i'm just a noob here

0:41 tomoj: looks like the readme has a better package.el

0:41 ekoontz: s/that's/thanks

0:41 sexpbot: <ekoontz> thanks a lot guys, i'm just a noob here

0:42 tomoj: I've just been using the one from tromey.com

0:43 ekoontz: awesome, i never knew i could evaluate lisp code in *scratch*

0:44 that's probably been in emacs since forever

0:44 scottj: maybe try C-h t while y're at it

0:44 ekoontz: haha yeah

0:48 i did http://tromey.com/elpa/install.html

0:48 now i can see a bunch of packages

0:49 no slime tho

0:49 scottj: ekoontz: read connecting with SLIME in readme of url you posted (gh swank clojure)

0:50 ekoontz: scottj: this url? http://tromey.com/elpa/install.html

0:50 nothing about slime there

0:50 scottj: https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure

0:50 ekoontz: ok thanks

0:53 "Install the "slime-repl" package using package.el" what does that mean

0:54 oh ok

0:54 scottj: so when you run M-x package-install it doesn't have slime-repl there?

0:54 ekoontz: no i see, need to put (add-to-list .. ) in my .emacs

0:56 argh that causes an error when i start emacs

0:56 scottj: I'm not sure if that's only meant for emacs 23

0:56 ekoontz: but i am using emacs 23

0:57 "Symbol's value as variable is void: package-archives"

0:57 maybe that's why technomancy gives a link to an updated package.el

0:57 scottj: well one option is to clone https://github.com/technomancy/slime and then checkout 605f930 and then add it's path to your load-path then (require 'slime)

0:58 ekoontz: tring that

0:58 scottj: yeah try that first

0:59 ekoontz: saving that as ~/.emacs.d/elpa/package.el

1:01 yay no startup errors :)

1:06 package-install still can't find slime-repl tho

1:10 oh..i think the problem was my .emacs was preventing .emacs.d/ from being read

1:10 i moved it, restarted emacs and a huge bunch of .el files got compiled

1:11 now it's installing slime-reply whohoo

1:14 scottj: eclipse ain't lookin so bad now is it? :)

1:15 ekoontz: lol

1:15 i was thinking the same thing but intellij's clojure thingy

1:15 scottj: the eclipse plugin seems to be the most actively developed/featureful of the big 3

1:15 ekoontz: ok, crap, i installed slime-repl before slime

1:16 scottj: hmm ok

1:16 i prefer intellij for java development but will consider eclipse for clojure, thanks :)

1:18 scottj: oh if you already use intellij I'd probably just use that

1:18 ekoontz: ok

1:18 scottj: whatever you want, notepad maybe :)

1:18 ekoontz: yeah

1:25 i dunno i just always liked emacs for editing lisp code

1:26 and i want to learn clojure so it seems like a natural fit

1:26 tomoj: http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit-beta.el that's good

1:28 ekoontz: will take a look

1:28 thanks tomoj

2:23 just tried M-x butterfly in emacs 23..mystfied

2:24 Derander: ekoontz: xkcd reference

2:24 ekoontz: lol http://xkcd.com/378/

2:25 very cute

2:25 thanks for the clue Derander :)

2:25 Derander: mmhmm

2:43 ekoontz: anyone using compojure?

2:44 scottj: lots of ppl

2:44 sexpbot: anyone?

2:44 ,anyone?

2:44 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: anyone? in this context

2:44 scottj: $anyone

2:44 ekoontz: lol

2:44 i love the bots

2:44 scottj: #emacs has two nice bot things I like ,salespitch and ,anyone

2:55 rata_: does anybody know if there is a multiset implementation in clojure? or if there is an easy way to implement one?

3:11 ekoontz: scottj, so how do you interact with these bots

3:11 ,salespitch and ,anyone

3:11 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: salespitch in this context

3:12 ekoontz: wow there's a clojurebot

3:13 brehaut: clojurebot, salespitch?

3:13 clojurebot: I don't understand.

3:14 scottj: ekoontz: /msg fsbot ,anyone

3:14 brehaut: you need to address clojurebot by name for most tasks; prefix comma only works for evaluation

3:14 ekoontz: ok thanks guys

3:14 brehaut: clojurebot #21

3:14 clearly i dont know clojurebot very well

3:15 clojurebot, #24

3:15 clojurebot: 24. Perhaps if we wrote programs from childhood on, as adults we'd be able to read them.

3:15 ekoontz: lol @ "Please do not ask if anyone uses, knows, is good with, can help you with <some program or library>. Instead, ask your real question and someone will answer if they can help."

3:16 anyone know about foo

3:17 brehaut: its a metasyntactic variable that has been used in computing for basicly ever

3:17 ekoontz: hahah sorry, i was trying to trigger the bot

3:18 brehaut: clojurebot is intentionally pretty reserved

3:18 and sexpbot has most of his really noisy features disabled for @clojure

5:19 kjeldahl: I'm doing some JSON serialization, which fails whenever Clojure encounters java class instances that can't be converted to strings automatically. Is there a simple way in clojure to figure out if a var is such a "class" (any class), and simply replace it with (str (class somevar))?

5:22 Licenser: greetings everyone

5:28 kjeldahl: Ok, maybe class? predicate works.

6:27 edoloughlin: Confused by http://bit.ly/gDcHpF - why does ({"fred" 1} "fred" 0) return 1 but ({} "fred" 0) return 0?

6:32 tomoj: maps as functions take two args: the key to look up and the default return value

6:32 (also one arg with nil default return value)

6:33 if the key you pass is in the map, it will return the value for that key

6:33 &({"fred" 23 "bob" 25} "bob" 0)

6:33 sexpbot: ⟹ 25

6:33 tomoj: &({"fred" 23 "bob" 25} "bill" 0)

6:33 sexpbot: ⟹ 0

6:34 edoloughlin: tomoj: Thanks. Must read docs in future.

7:02 _ulises: morning

7:42 shortlord: is there an emacs command for swank that evaluates the whole form that the point is in? (like the whole function instead of only the current line)

7:51 _ulises: shortlord: C-x C-e

7:51 (if I remember correctly)

7:53 shortlord: _ulises: but that command evaluates from the point where I am currently at to the end of the form. which means if I'm inside a function, it does not evaluate the whole function, but only the the form I'm currently in

7:54 _ulises: sorry, I meant C-c C-c

7:55 that should compile the whole function (for instance), if it's a def or an expression then it should eval it

7:55 (I could be very wrong here or simply misunderstanding your question though)

7:58 shortlord: _ulises: that seems to compile the form, but not evaluate it

7:58 could be my fault though, I'm totally new to emacs

7:58 I guess I should read up a bit on clojure development with emacs...

7:59 _ulises: well, it depends on what you're after

8:00 shortlord: ah, C-M-x evaluates a whole form

8:02 _ulises: a whole def form

8:02 (not being pedantic, just saying what's on the assembla wiki)

8:02 :)

8:02 shortlord: ah, right

8:03 _ulises: if you're at the end of the form you can do C-x C-e, but I suspect you want to do this from within the form?

8:04 shortlord: yes, exactly

8:05 _ulises: hrm, well, I don't know then :(

8:06 shortlord: _ulises: well, C-M-x seems to work for everything I want. normal function calls seem to be def forms as well, so it works pretty well

8:07 _ulises: ah, very good then :)

10:03 raek: does anyone know how to stop emacs-starter-kit from rendering "fn" as "ƒ"?

10:06 incandenza: raek: there is a little section in starter-kit-lisp.el that turns it on; I just commented it out

10:07 * raek just discovered C-c p (provided by the starter kit)

10:08 incandenza: huh... is that better than C-x =?

10:08 raek: incandenza: found it too. I was hoping that there was some way of "tweaking" it off rather than commenting it out

10:08 what does C-x = do?

10:09 all I get is "Char: C-j (10, #o12, #xa) point=1646 of 1646 (100%) column=7" in the minibuffer

10:09 incandenza: hmm... what does C-c p do then?

10:09 I thought it did the same thing but with less info

10:10 raek: for me C-c p evaluates the expression before the point, pretty-prints the result and shows it in a new buffer

10:11 incandenza: oh, I see. he has both a custom global binding and slime binding on that key

10:11 raek: I found it in starter-kit-lisp.el, where the "fn" code lived

10:11 incandenza: you should be able to turn it off with font-lock-remove-keywords as well

10:14 raek: incandenza: ah, thanks

10:28 siefca: what development environment / editor for Mac OS X supports Clojure?

10:31 mids: siefca: I use MacVim, some clojure vim plugins and leiningen (via cli)

10:33 Aquamacs seems to be a nice pick; http://stackoverflow.com/questions/257333/clojure-editor-ide-recommendations-on-mac-os-x http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2120533/how-to-setup-aquamacs-for-clojure-development

10:55 siefca: mids: thx

10:55 mids: trying aquamacs but it foults

10:55 faults

10:55 2011-02-20 16:48:03.850 Aquamacs[48128:903] *** Terminating app due to uncaught exception 'NSInternalInconsistencyException', reason: 'AHLookupAnchor failed'

10:56 i have to reset launchservices, google tells

11:10 Cozey: Hi..why is vector not a seq?

11:11 ok.. It's not an ISeq implementation, but still a List

11:11 no.. not a list either

11:22 raek: Cozey: it is similar to why Java ArrayLists are not Iterators. A seq is a sequential view of a collection and can be seens as a link of a linked list, bit with unspecified implementation. Most of the time the collectoin is not itself a seq. An exception is lists, which are their own seqs.

11:23 *but with

11:23 *In most of the cases a collection

11:28 edoloughlin: This is driving me nuts - I just can't work it out. How do I turn [(:email_addr "x@x.x") (:name "X") (:id 3)] into [:email_addr "x@x.x" :name "X" :id 3] ??? Any help most appreciated.

11:31 dnolen: ,(apply concat [(:email_addr "x@x.x") (:name "X") (:id 3)])

11:31 clojurebot: ()

11:32 mids: ,(flatten ['(:email_addr "x@x.x") '(:name "X") '(:id 3)])

11:32 clojurebot: (:email_addr "x@x.x" :name "X" :id 3)

11:32 dnolen: oops

11:33 edoloughlin: Thanks - I just realised that I need to quote the ( in the REPL. That explains why everything was coming back as variations of nil!

11:33 dnolen: ,(apply concat '[(:email_addr "x@x.x") (:name "X") (:id 3)])

11:33 clojurebot: (:email_addr "x@x.x" :name "X" :id 3)

11:34 Cozey: dnolen: why does the quote matter with vector?

11:34 dnolen: Cozey: keywords are functions

11:34 Cozey: ah of course

11:34 dnolen: Cozey: nothing to do w/ vector specifically

11:34 Cozey: :-)

11:34 right - this is kind of a trap

11:37 dnolen: flatten is more general I think, so quite a bit slower than (apply concat ...) which in turn looks slower than (reduce concat ...)

11:38 edoloughlin: dnolen: Thanks, must try it out. Can't use flatten as I want to preserve embedded vectors.

11:58 thorwil: hmm, why do i get a lazyseq out of this? (str (map #(str % "ix") ["aster" "obel" "idef"]))

12:01 raek: thorwil: the result of map is a lazy sequence. do you want to turn the data structures into a readable string? use pr-str

12:02 ,(pr-str (for [word ["aster" "obel" "idef"]] (str word "ix")))

12:02 clojurebot: "(\"asterix\" \"obelix\" \"idefix\")"

12:02 raek: ,(print (pr-str (for [word ["aster" "obel" "idef"]] (str word "ix"))))

12:02 clojurebot: ("asterix" "obelix" "idefix")

12:03 raek: hrm. (comp print pr-str) is more elegantly written as 'pr'

12:03 thorwil: i'm using map not for this case, it's just a reduced example

12:04 raek: map and for both behave the same way in this case

12:04 ,(str (map #(str % "ix") ["aster" "obel" "idef"]))

12:04 clojurebot: "clojure.lang.LazySeq@d8e802df"

12:04 raek: ,(pr-str (map #(str % "ix") ["aster" "obel" "idef"]))

12:04 clojurebot: "(\"asterix\" \"obelix\" \"idefix\")"

12:05 raek: (I just personally prefer 'for' over 'map' and an anonymous function when mapping over one sequence)

12:05 thorwil: and map itself on the repl does print the words, so that adding str to the mix would then switch to this opaque lazyseq befuddles me

12:06 dnolen: thorwil: that because the repl knows how to print lazy-sequences. but no reason for str to know about them.

12:06 thorwil: ah! thanks

12:16 pdk`: ok, riddle me this

12:16 i have a multimethod (defmulti emit (fn [chain & [max-length]] (:order (meta chain))))

12:16 and dispatch methods defined for 0 1 and :default

12:17 and 3 testing objects with respective orders of 0 1 and 2 in their metas

12:17 it correctly picks the 0 method for the object with order 0

12:17 but for the object with order 1 it dispatches to :default

12:18 raek: pdk`: have you changed the 'defmulti' recently?

12:18 pdk`: it used to be a fn that returned keywords

12:18 pauldoo: is (def foobar "hello world" 10) the correct syntax for adding a docstring to a def ?

12:18 pdk`: :order-0 if order was 0 and nil otherwise but it didn't have a case for returning :order-1 earlier

12:19 gives an error pauldoo

12:19 raek: if you reevaluate a defmulti form, nothing will happen (like with defonce)

12:19 pdk`: hm

12:19 maybe since i was reloading repeatedly from a repl with load-file

12:19 should probably restart clojure

12:19 raek: so you need to (def emit nil) or (ns-unmap 'the-ns 'emit) to clear it out first

12:19 pdk`: aha

12:19 i was wondering what the equivalent to unintern was

12:19 raek: and after evaling that, you have to evaluate all defmethods again

12:20 pauldoo: pdk`: so is clojure.org wrong? http://clojure.org/special_forms#Special Forms--(def symbol doc-string? init?)

12:21 pdk`: ,(def x "hi" 10)

12:21 clojurebot: DENIED

12:21 raek: I wonder that too. I get "Too many arguments to def" in clojure 1.3.

12:21 (alpha 2)

12:21 which is old...

12:21 pdk`: yeah getting that here

12:21 on 1.2

12:21 raek: pdk`: you can always do (def ^{:doc "The docstring."} foobar 10)

12:22 pdk`: yeah looking at the docs there it leans toward that and doesnt indicate any other way

12:23 pauldoo: raek: that other syntax works fine, but unfortunately Marginalia doesn't pick it up

12:28 wtetzner: is there a way to extend a byte array with a protocol?

12:51 joshua__: chouser, can I talk to you in IMs for a minute?

12:56 anthony__: I'm trying to create a fn/macro for a directory monitor. What's the best (idiomatically) way to do the parameters? I have a function now with [path evt key fn], where fn will be executed whenever the evt (:create :modify :delete) happens on path.

12:56 But you should be able to have a fn execute for multiple evts on multiple paths.

12:57 (does this make any sense?)

13:03 TimMc: Huh. I find myself needing something like a dependency manager for my graphics app.

13:04 There are a number of bits of state and GUI components that can become "dirty" (their dependencies have changed) and can propagate their own dirtiness to other elements.

13:04 I think a DSL is called for.

13:18 anthony__: You could certainly allow path and evt to be seqs, and treat non-seqs as collections of one item.

13:20 anthony__: TimMc: Thanks, Tim. But, you might want to monitor path1 for :create and :delete, and path2 for just :modify. Won't be too common, but something I want to support.

13:20 So I need a way to do path-evt associations. Is a vector best?

13:20 (add-fs-watch [path1 :create :delete path2 :modify] key fn) ?

13:20 TimMc: You could ask relying code to do that for you.

13:21 anthony__: TimMc: I'm not sure what you mean.

13:21 TimMc: Change the order of params to (key fn evt path) and then clients can (map (partial add-fs-watch ...) ...), etc.

13:22 Or (defn add-fs-watch [key fn & watchers] ...) where watchers is a series of evts and paths.

13:23 That might be more idiomatic.

13:23 anthony__: That makes sense.

13:23 How would I iterate through the watchers?

13:23 watchers = [path1 :create :delete path2 :modify]

13:23 I suppose it wouldn't be hard to do that manually, nevermind.

13:24 TimMc: You would call it like (add-fs-watch key fn path1 :create :delete path2 :modify)

13:24 Or (apply add-fs-watch key fn watchers)

13:24 anthony__: Perfect.

13:25 TimMc: Internally, watchers would be a collection of some sort, could e a vector.

13:25 dnolen: anthony__: also agents have built in support for watching, if you don't want to build the machinery yourself.

13:26 anthony__: dnolen: Is it possible to watch a filesystem directory for changes using agents?

13:27 dnolen: anthony__: no agents just support propagation. watching a filesystem directory in Java is not even possible w/o NIO/2 as far as I know.

13:28 anthony__: dnolen: Yeah, not possible without NIO/2. I'm running it using jdk1.7 (just a personal project running on my machine)

14:17 cobol_expert: hi, i've got a stackoverflow emacs-related question that's been nagging me if anyone wants to take a stab: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5058963/how-do-i-associate-a-mode-to-a-particular-file-or-a-set-of-files-based-on-extensi

14:17 much appreciated

14:38 pdk`: jesus christ

14:38 i went to a search bar on a website

14:38 and the first thing i typed was (doc

14:42 bmh: Can I get better stack traces out of the repl? I'm getting a null pointer exception from an invocation of an incanter function and I can't tell where it's being called from

14:47 joshua__: pdk`, yea, your suppose to use (find-doc

14:48 pdk`: oh you!

14:57 ok this'll probably sound dumb but

14:57 say i have a seq of seqs like [[2]]

14:57 and given another seq to prepend [1] and another to append [3]

14:57 i'd want to go from those to [[1] [2] [3]]

14:58 TimMc: pdk`: Does it matter that the outer seqs are storing other seqs?

14:58 pdk`: the seqs [1] and [3] in this case aren't going to be nested

14:59 TimMc: (concat [v1] v2 [v3])

14:59 pdk`: but i want to add them literally

14:59 hm

14:59 there's an idea

14:59 TimMc: Just off the top of my head. May not be the best way.

14:59 pdk`: ,(let [main [[2 3]] to-prepend [1] to-append [3]] (concat [to-prepend] main [to-append]))

14:59 clojurebot: ([1] [2 3] [3])

15:00 pdk`: i just tried `(~to-append ~@main ~to-prepend) and it seems to give me what i want

15:00 i dunno if using ` is frowned upon outside of macros/returning a form literally

15:01 TimMc: good question

15:01 pdk`: it gives correct results at any rate

15:01 ,(let [main [[2] [3]] to-prepend [1] to-append [3]] (concat [to-prepend] main [to-append]))

15:01 clojurebot: ([1] [2] [3] [3])

15:01 pdk`: as does that apparently

15:02 dnolen: pdk`: TimMc: that'll work but careful with concat, it's lazy so easy to build up thunks and upon realization stack overflow. best to add a doall. note that might be unweildly performance-wise for large seqs.

15:02 also note:

15:02 ,(macroexpand '`(~to-append ~@main ~to-prepend))

15:03 clojurebot: (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list to-append) main (clojure.core/list to-prepend)))

15:03 dnolen: converts to a concat.

15:03 pdk`: wowzers

15:04 dnolen: ,'`(~to-append ~@main ~to-prepend)

15:04 clojurebot: (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list to-append) main (clojure.core/list to-prepend)))

15:08 pdk`: symbol soup is the best

15:08 this is why i want canned lisp alphabet soup

15:08 a hearty bowl of ( ) ~ and `

15:09 TimMc: pdk`: I'm pretty sure ou can get that just by breaking up spaghetti into short pieces.

15:10 joshua__: $findfn [[2]] [1] [3] [[1] [2] [3]]

15:10 sexpbot: []

15:10 joshua__: $findfn [1] [[2]] [3] [[1] [2] [3]]

15:10 sexpbot: []

15:11 TimMc: $findfn :NP :P

15:11 sexpbot: []

15:11 TimMc: :-(

15:11 I guess that settles it.

15:13 joshua__: $findfn :P := :NP true

15:13 sexpbot: [clojure.core/not= clojure.core/distinct?]

15:14 joshua__: I like how not= and distinct are the two that pop up.. very fitting

15:15 Whats the best idiomatic way to do decorators in Clojure?

15:16 brehaut: joshua__: in what sense?

15:17 joshua__: I'm making a login-required decorator. Figured I'd ask if there is a preferred way to do it (like in python there is a special syntax).

15:17 brehaut: also ##(sort (conj [[2]] [1] [3]))

15:17 sexpbot: ⟹ ([1] [2] [3])

15:18 lucian: joshua__: not really in clojure, afaik

15:18 brehaut: joshua__: just use a function

15:18 ring's middleware is idomatic decoration

15:18 (defn mydecorator [f] (fn [& rest] (apply f rest)))

15:18 lucian: brehaut: in python it's also just a function, joshua__ was probably wondering if there was anything to make it nicer

15:19 joshua__: lucian, yep

15:19 brehaut: you can use ->

15:19 (-> fn (decorate-b) (decorate-a))

15:20 if you are using moustache it automatically reverses middlewares for you

15:23 lucian: theres no special syntax because throwing functions around is every day in clojure; rather than special case

15:23 thorwil: how can i turn a " " into \space (and "." to \.)?

15:23 lucian: brehaut: yeah, python's decorators aren't very much needed either. it's @decorator instead of func = decorator(func)

15:24 brehaut: lucian: sure, but thats not idiomatic python

15:24 lucian: brehaut: not anymore, yes

15:25 i think the idiom was used quite a bit even before syntactic decorators

15:25 nowadays it's just weird

15:25 brehaut: thorwil: ##(map first [" " "."])

15:25 sexpbot: ⟹ (\space \.)

15:26 lucian: btw, i was wondering if reader macros are planned

15:27 joshua__: '(char " ")

15:27 dnolen: lucian: nope.

15:27 joshua__: `(char " ")

15:27 lucian: dnolen: any particular reason?

15:27 brehaut: joshua__: comma

15:27 joshua__: &(char " ")

15:27 sexpbot: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number

15:27 joshua__: brehaut, ;p

15:27 dnolen: lucian: rhickey said so. more nuanced than that, but search the mailing list if you want more detail.

15:27 joshua__: ,(char " ")

15:27 clojurebot: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number

15:28 lucian: dnolen: right. i was wondering if it's a technical no because of the java reader (and temporary) or an ideological one

15:28 dnolen: lucian: ideological.

15:28 lucian: dnolen: ok, thanks

15:31 thorwil: eek, Debugger entered--Lisp error

15:31 gotta be careful with ticks and commas, it seems :)

15:31 brehaut: thorwil: you dont need then normally. comma, ## and & have special meaning in IRC though

15:32 pdk`: they're just used to trigger the bots in the channel

15:33 i don't think ## is part of clojure itself but , is whitespace and you'd use & in argument lists

15:34 TimMc: ## is just a trigger for sexpbot

15:34 thorwil: i got that much. i'm not sure what exactly catapulted me into the debugger

15:34 TimMc: ah

15:35 brehaut: what expression were you evaluating?

15:35 thorwil: variations on `(char " ")

15:35 brehaut: well char doesnt work on a string

15:35 it raises an exception

15:35 thorwil: i just closed emacs, found no other way out

15:36 brehaut: ,(first " ")

15:36 clojurebot: \space

15:36 brehaut: its a bit weird but it works

15:36 (uses string's implementation of seq as a seq of chars)

15:37 thorwil: btw, what's the reason behind character literals being something different from length 1 strings (expect for space and newline, where special casing is no surprise)?

15:38 brehaut: thorwil: primary reason is that they are different in the JVM

15:38 and JVM strings are made of chars so native interop with strings as first class clojure requires it

15:38 secondly, if you are actually working at the char level its a bunch faster

15:39 thorwil: ok, thanks

15:40 brehaut: personally, i think it makes sense too; if i told you that actually, all numbers are just lists of numbers that only one item long, you'd look at me like i was mental ;)

15:49 pdk`: java has separate classes for Character and String

15:49 so when you do java interop

15:49 sometimes you have to bite your teeth and put up with java brain damage

16:57 rata_: hi all

17:01 why doesn't c.c.generic.math-functions/abs work for ratios?

17:01 isn't it supposed to be generic?

17:14 why lein says "*jure names are no longer allowed"?

17:16 brehaut: because that pun got old fast

17:20 rata_: that means too many people were naming their projects as *jure?

17:20 Adamant: de jure?

17:20 brehaut: compojure, scriptjure, etc

17:20 Adamant: trial by jure

17:21 rata_: but is there any problem that there are so many projects named *jure?

17:21 brehaut: its pretty horrible

17:22 rata_: what's pretty horrible? the restriction or *jure names?

17:22 brehaut: *jure names

17:22 KirinDave: Wait...

17:22 Leiningen has code to reject project creation with *jure?

17:22 brehaut: yup

17:22 has done since about 1.1 i think

17:23 rata_: KirinDave: yes

17:23 KirinDave: Wow.

17:23 rata_: I find pretty horrible the restriction

17:23 what the hell has leiningen to say about how ppl want to name their projects

17:23 brehaut: im happy not having to wade through a sea of extremely similar names

17:23 rata_: is it a tool?

17:24 brehaut: you had come up with a *jure pun and just got burnt by lein ?

17:24 rata_: fuck leiningen... has cake the same stupid restriction?

17:24 KirinDave: technomancy: Ha. Hahaha.

17:24 rata_: I don't want a moralist tool

17:24 KirinDave: technomancy: That's fsckin' awesome

17:25 rata_: *opinionated tool

17:25 I want a tool that does the job

17:25 Adamant: rata_: it's not morality, it's a programmer with an option

17:25 KirinDave: technomancy: I mean, it's turrible. But it's awesome.

17:25 Adamant: *opinion

17:25 yah

17:25 KirinDave: rata_: then clojure may not be your community.

17:26 rata_: brehaut: I got that name 3 months and didn't create the project using leiningen, I did it "by hand"

17:26 KirinDave: who are you to say I don't belong here?

17:26 KirinDave: rata_: I AM THE CLOJURE POLICE>

17:27 rata_: Adamant: it's not an option, it's a restriction

17:27 Adamant: rata_: opinion

17:27 yes it is a restrictin

17:27 KirinDave: rata_: But seriously, idiosyncrasies and opinionated projects are the norm in the clojure community.

17:27 morphling: rata_: fork leiningen if you have strong opinions about it..

17:27 KirinDave: rata_: You will see it _a lot._

17:27 Adamant: morphling: or just have a patch that unfucks it.

17:28 markskilbeck: KirinDave: those are qualities of most programmers/communities.

17:29 KirinDave: markskilbeck: I think the Clojure community is by far the most idiosyncratic I interact with

17:29 Adamant: I am hardly an expert on the Clojure community, but I've seen worse and more annoying than that

17:29 in fairly mainstream communities

17:29 markskilbeck: I haven't noticed.

17:29 * markskilbeck is not disagreeing, however.

17:29 rata_: KirinDave: I don't think opinions should get into restrictions, just maybe suggestions, at least in this case

17:30 KirinDave: Adamant: We leave Python out of it. Python's sanctimony really throws off the mean. ;)

17:30 Adamant: KirinDave: ha ha, Python isn't even as bad as some I am thinking about.

17:31 rata_: well, let's try out cake

17:31 KirinDave: Adamant: hah. Am I sensing a veiled haskell community reference?

17:31 Adamant: KirinDave: no

17:32 __name__: KirinDave: What's sanctimony about Python?

17:32 brehaut: the whitespace rule?

17:32 Adamant: Haskell is idiosyncratic and opinionated, but not especially fascist

17:32 KirinDave: __name__: OPen up the python shell, type "import this"

17:32 brehaut: though shall not do fp?

17:32 KirinDave: But have a barf bag ready

17:32 __name__: KirinDave: I know.

17:32 KirinDave: Because it's like I just told you, "This smells really bad. Smell it."

17:33 "our 15 year outdated ideas, lets all stroke them."

17:36 Adamant: __name__: mostly Guido deciding to do half-ass FP support then annoying people who work in the FP style by removing and shuffling around random shit to fit with his programming ideology

17:37 or at least stating he's really gonna do so

17:37 __name__: Adamant: Python is not really FP

17:37 Adamant: __name__: it's not, but they do partially support it

17:37 and in a horribly ugly way

17:37 __name__: yeah, i think it's not a good idea

17:37 to partially support it.

17:37 Adamant: I agree, they should fully support it

17:38 :P

17:39 benevolent dictators are nice until they get behind the power curve.

17:48 rata_: thanks cake! you don't have that annoying restriction =)

17:59 technomancy: KirinDave: the thing is since that restriction has been in place so long people forget how annoying it was

17:59 but then someone created a project called "couveraejure" or some such and I was like "you shall not paaaaaaass"

18:00 KirinDave: Hahah.

18:01 technomancy: Well I approve. :D

18:01 shortlord: woah, functions like filter and map automatically dereference a ref? neat

18:01 technomancy: http://www.jtbourne.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/you-shall-not-pass.jpg

18:03 mrBliss`: shortlord: how do you mean? ##(let [r (ref [1 2 3])] (map inc r))

18:03 sexpbot: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Ref

18:06 technomancy: ,(map (atom [:a :b :c]) [1 2 3])

18:06 clojurebot: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Atom cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn

18:07 technomancy: ,(map (ref [:a :b :c]) [0 1 2])

18:07 clojurebot: (:a :b :c)

18:07 technomancy: curious

18:10 shortlord: well it seems that you can use a ref directly as a function without dereferencing it first. that's really nice, any other situations where something is automatically dereferenced?

18:10 technomancy: shortlord: vars are too

18:10 ,(#'+ 1 2 3)

18:10 clojurebot: 6

18:11 technomancy: no idea why atoms aren't

18:13 ossareh: hola all

18:14 rata_: technomancy: is kapjure (for kappa + capture + clojure) a wrong name?

18:16 technomancy: rata_: there's already a library called capjure

18:18 rata_: technomancy: well, that's sad... even so, I've been calling my project kapjure for 3 months, so it's too late to change it

18:20 jjido: rata_: how about "kapjura"?

18:20 rata_: jjido: it doesn't sound good I think

18:21 anyway, I don't think my project will be famous, so the similarity between capjure and kapjure is not a real problem probably

18:22 technomancy: well whatever you do, don't write a third book called "Programming Scala"

18:22 rata_: ok

18:23 technomancy: but really, that restriction is pretty annoying

18:23 technomancy: KirinDave: have you given any thought to a Clojure wrapper for Akka?

18:23 I was looking over it, but it looks like the docs for Java are still being fleshed out, and I couldn't make sense of the docs for Scala.

18:26 might be a strategic project for BankSimple's polyglotism to tackle, hint hint.

18:53 KirinDave: technomancy: Ha

18:53 technomancy: I have, though. Yes.

18:53 technomancy: 1.1 is the place to start that tho

18:55 TimMc: Any better way to modify each value of a map than (into {} (for [[k v] ...] [k ...]))?

18:56 into+for doesn't allow me to preserve the type of the associative object

18:57 brehaut: TimMc: (let [m (hash-map :a 1 :b 2) f (juxt type identity)] (f (into (empty m) (map identity m))))

18:58 KirinDave: technomancy: It's hard tho. Akka feels like erlang actor stuff because of the DSL capabilities of scala. That specific kind of turtle-shell DSL and the pattern matching that goes with it is not so natural in cojure.

18:58 technomancy: Orrrrrrr... "insufficient symbol-macrolet" :)

18:59 TimMc: brehaut: hum... I'll have to digest that.

18:59 brehaut: TimMc: the part you care about is (empty m)

18:59 TimMc: yes

19:00 brehaut: its not necessarily a good solution

19:01 TimMc: brehaut: Thanks! That looks like it will work.

19:01 I have to build up an entirely new object anyway, so this is fine.

19:01 brehaut: TimMc: im not convinced it actually does ;) eg, array-maps turn into hash-maps at a certain size

19:02 TimMc: How is that a problem?

19:02 I'll be building it back up to the same size.

19:03 brehaut: TimMc: its an it depends problem

19:04 if you care enough about preserving the original type, then having it change on you during the into process might not be ideal

19:04 i dont know your specifics though

19:04 TimMc: Ah! No, I don't care if changes from an array-map to a hash-map.

19:05 The original might be a record or a struct.

19:05 Maybe it doesn't matter -- I think I can rewrite my code to avoid having to care about preserving type.

19:07 brehaut: I have a set of API calls that all work on an associative object whose type is an implementation detail. I'd rather restrict the number of methods who care about that detail.

19:07 So, I'm using (create) instead of (empty obj). Then only create has to know.

19:11 $findfn true true true false true false

19:11 sexpbot: [clojure.core/distinct? clojure.core/= clojure.core/and]

19:11 TimMc: hrmf

19:13 ,(every? true? [true true false true])

19:13 clojurebot: false

19:13 TimMc: ,(every? true? [])

19:14 clojurebot: true

19:14 TimMc: nice

20:21 joshua__: TimMc, if you don't mind me asking.. what are you working on?

20:29 devn: (defn me? [] :me), (defmulti handle-command (fn [command nick channel message irc & args] command))

20:29 (defmethod handle-command "is that me?" [_ _ _ _ _] (me?))

20:30 (handle-command "is that me?") throws an exception for an invalid number of aguments which is fair

20:30 but in order to get that call to handle-command to work I need to (handle-command "is that me?" nil nil nil nil)

20:30 I must be doing something wrong there...

20:34 Stavros: hello

20:34 devn: maybe i shouldnt be using a multimethod here, but it solves a lot of my issues, the only one remaining seems to be that the arity varies quite a bit and passing in nils seems weird

20:34 Stavros: hola

20:34 Stavros: aren't purely functional languages not supposed to have something like the "do" syntax?

20:34 i'm just learning clojure, so i don't know, but it seems weird

20:34 devn: clojure isn't purely functional like haskell

20:34 Stavros: ah

20:35 devn: you can do I/O if you want

20:35 Stavros: is it a lisp?

20:35 brehaut: Stavros: it depends if you like to have a language that can do more than heat up your CPU

20:35 Stavros: brehaut: haha, i see

20:35 brehaut: yeah :)

20:35 devn: stuart halloway has referred to clojure as a "consenting adults" language

20:35 you can do IO -- it can be dangerous, but that's on you

20:35 Stavros: i'm just wondering whether i should avoid that and loops

20:35 devn: Stavros: i would avoid do and loops at first

20:36 Stavros: devn: ah, thanks

20:36 devn: check out project euler -- that will make you make good use of maps, reduce, filter, etc.

20:36 Stavros: devn: i am, i'm at the second problem

20:36 i'm trying to get all the fibonacci numbers by recursion up to 4 million

20:36 devn: :)

20:36 Stavros: which is tricky

20:36 devn: Stavros: are you using your REPL?

20:36 Stavros: i figured i can pass a list to each call and then append to it

20:36 devn: no, it doesn't work very well

20:37 i can't use the up/down arrows for history, etc

20:37 devn: one thing that i cannot recommend enough to people learning clojure is to leverage the power of the REPL to try lots of stuff quickly

20:37 Stavros: cake (the clojure build tool) has a better repl than leiningen

20:37 it has completion and such

20:37 what editor are you using?

20:37 Stavros: hmm, do i just apt-get that?

20:37 vim

20:38 devn: Stavros: https://github.com/ninjudd/cake

20:38 Stavros: ah, thanks

20:38 DespiteItAll: Stavros -- do you have vimclojure?

20:38 Actually, nevermind, if you're just getting started you need a real repl. Vimclojure can be painful.

20:38 Stavros: DespiteItAll: i'm not sure, i installed the plugins on the "getting started" page

20:38 devn: Stavros: depending on where you came from (language-wise), im guessing you'll have an initial reaction to using the REPL to drive development which (in my experience) was wrong

20:39 the REPL should drive your programming IMO

20:39 Stavros: devn: i come from python, so i'm used to a repl

20:39 devn: Stavros: can i make a really scary suggestion to a VIM user such as yourself?

20:39 Stavros: awww

20:39 devn: configure emacs /just enough/ to use slime as your REPL

20:39 Stavros: i knew you were going to say that :p

20:40 devn: it is not your mama's REPL

20:40 DespiteItAll: heheh

20:40 Stavros: is that hard to do?

20:40 i have emacs installed, but i've never touched it

20:40 devn: no not really -- i suggest getting technomancy's emacs-starter-kit

20:40 Stavros: let me do that now

20:40 devn: and then use M-x package-list-packages to install clojure-mode, slime, slime-repl

20:40 joshua__: Stavros, in my experience it was.. well that was easy.. wait its not working.. and than it started working by magic and I loved it

20:41 Stavros: joshua__: hopefully it'll be the same with me, let me install it because i literally have no idea what all this M-x stuff is :p

20:41 devn: Stavros: SLIME is an incredible tool -- after you're set up I will show you some stuff that will blow your mind

20:41 M-. is one that comes to mind :)

20:41 Stavros: let me install it

20:41 joshua__: devn, Blow my mind too! I haven't had my mind blown yet!

20:41 devn: also, paredit-mode, there is one for vim i believe, consider using it, structural editing is sweet for a lisp

20:42 joshua__: M-. is pretty awesome, have you used that?

20:42 DespiteItAll: What does it do?

20:42 devn: type this at your user> prompt: (defn|) | is your cursor

20:42 joshua__: OMG

20:43 devn: with your cursor in place type M-.

20:43 Stavros: okay, do i need to put it in .emacs.d/ or .emacs.d/some_subdir?

20:43 joshua__: Jumps to declaration.

20:43 devn: it's even better joshua__

20:43 TimMc: joshua__: https://github.com/timmc/CS4300-HW3/ <-- I'm working on a graphics app for a class.

20:43 devn: let's say you see a function you want to read the source of inside that first M-.

20:43 hit M-. again and you can jump down another level

20:43 hit M-, to go back up levels

20:43 Stavros: hmm, i think i installed it, how do i tell?

20:44 joshua__: Dude that is so awesome. Thank you.

20:44 devn: Stavros: when you launch emacs with it for the first time it should do a whole bunch of compilation and such

20:44 Stavros: hmm, no then

20:44 aha, now it is installed

20:44 okay, i have a repl on the right

20:44 devn: Stavros: you need a ~/.emacs that has a (load-file "/Users/username/.emacs.d/init.el")

20:44 Stavros: with clojure and all, that was fast!

20:45 Stavros: no, wait, it produced an error :/

20:45 devn: :D

20:45 how are you starting the REPL

20:45 brb 1s

20:45 Stavros: i just launched emacs, but it says it can't contact repo.technomancy.us

20:46 oh okay, retried and it's better now

20:46 it's compiling

20:46 joshua__: TimMc, "If you share either of these goals, you should probably steer clear of my code. :-P" hilarious!!

20:46 Stavros: how can i close an emacs pane?

20:47 joshua__: c-x 0

20:47 Stavros: thanks

20:47 DespiteItAll: did technomancy do a screencast about paredit? where can I find that?

20:47 Stavros: although it sort of looks like it's doing things

20:47 TimMc: joshua__: Actually, the prof has since said that we can look at each others' code for this assignment (since we each are doing a different thing), but the Clojure bit still holds.

20:48 devn: DespiteItAll: peepcode

20:48 DespiteItAll: it's a great beginner's screencast

20:49 once you grok a few bits of terminology and figure out the C-h f,k,a,etc. commands you can figure pretty much anything out yourself

20:49 DespiteItAll: ah, thanks

20:49 devn: M-x apropos FTW

20:49 Stavros: okay, starter kit is done doing things, i think

20:50 devn: Stavros: my suggestion is to quit emacs, relaunch it, M-x package-list[TAB] to autocomplete to package-list-packages

20:50 Stavros: devn: done

20:50 i'm trying to install slime-repl

20:50 but it's giving me a syntax error

20:51 devn: Stavros: it might just be warnings from the compilation

20:51 Stavros: well i'm clicking on it and pressing enter, neither will work

20:51 devn: oh, right, either type 'h' or '?'

20:51 Stavros: wrong number of arguments: called-interactively-p, 1

20:51 that seems to have worked

20:52 i pressed "i"

20:52 no reaction

20:52 devn: yes, press i on all of the things you want to mark for installation

20:52 then press x to make it all run

20:52 Stavros: ah

20:52 how do i select things? :(

20:52 devn: how do you mean?

20:53 Stavros: i place my pointer over the package name, press i, then i press x and it says "no operations specified"

20:53 so i assume i need to select a package in a different way

20:53 devn: put your pointer at the beginning of each line

20:53 Stavros: ah

20:53 that worked

20:53 yep

20:53 okay, it did things

20:54 now i have to launch the repl, i guess?

20:54 M-x slime-repl isn't there

20:54 devn: *nod*

20:54 Stavros: man, i feel like my users

20:54 devn: here's how i work with the repl Stavros

20:54 do you use leiningen or cake yet?

20:54 Stavros: i'm not sure, i just run "clojure"

20:54 it's not cake

20:55 devn: okay you should get lein or cake

20:55 Stavros: will do

20:55 devn: Stavros: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/raw/stable/bin/lein

20:56 Stavros: i only need this file?

20:56 devn: put that on your PATH, chmod +x it, then run lein, it'll do it's thing, then do a `lein new myproject`

20:56 this created a project directory with a project.clj file

20:56 TimMc: Stavros: It's a self-installer. It loads itself into ~/.lein

20:57 devn: add this to the project.clj file after :dependencies [[foo "1.2.0"]]

20:57 :dev-dependencies [[swank-clojure "1.3.0-SNAPSHOT"]]

20:57 save it, run `lein deps`

20:57 you'll see it pull down swank-clojure, now you have a new `lein` task in that directory: run `lein swank`

20:57 in emacs type M-x slime-connect[RET]

20:57 Stavros: okay, just a second :p

20:57 devn: hit return for all of the questions

20:58 Stavros: do i need to put lein in /usr/bin, or will just running it be ok?

20:58 devn: it should show you a user> prompt, and there you are

20:58 Stavros: put it on your PATH

20:58 I have it in ~/bin/lein

20:58 Stavros: ah great

20:58 let me do the rest

20:58 devn: and have $HOME/bin on my PATH

20:59 i really should write a script or something to just set this up automatically for someone new to emacs and clojure

20:59 clojurebot: lisp is the red pill

20:59 devn: heh

21:00 TimMc: devn: yes yes yes yes yes

21:00 Stavros: okay, emacs says connected

21:00 devn: i wouldn't recommend a script, maybe an instructions page

21:01 i already learnt a few things from this :p

21:01 devn: Stavros: now type some stuff into that damn REPL and hack the Gibson :)

21:01 Stavros: oh wow, it adds automatic closed parentheses

21:01 devn: yeah i think technomancy added paredit-mode by default to the starter kit

21:01 Stavros: can i make it so the parentheses are a different color?

21:02 devn: or as a dependency of clojure-mode

21:02 Stavros: or the scopes

21:02 by the way, this seems to be a buffer

21:02 not a repl

21:02 even though i did connect

21:02 devn: hm? how do you mean?

21:02 Stavros: well there's no >

21:02 devn: like you "connected" in your terminal, or from emacs?

21:02 Stavros: and pressing enter just adds a new line

21:02 i connected from emacs to swank

21:02 it said connected, etc

21:03 but it didn't open a repl, it dropped me in my buffer again

21:03 devn: and you did a M-x slime-connect ?

21:03 Stavros: yes, it was successful

21:03 devn: try C-x C-b, see anything that says *slime clojure* or something like that?

21:04 Stavros: scratch, messages, completions, slime-events

21:04 devn: did you run lein deps, and lein swank from the project directory?

21:04 Stavros: yes

21:04 devn: after you added swank-clojure as a dependency

21:04 Stavros: yes, swank is runninng

21:04 devn: and what does your terminal say now where you ran lein swank?

21:04 Stavros: Connection opened on local port 4005

21:04 TimMc: I'm going to scroll back and follow along myself.

21:04 Stavros: #<ServerSocket ServerSocket[addr=localhost/127.0.0.1,port=0,localport=4005]>

21:05 devn: Stavros: could you quit emacs, and try a fresh M-x slime-connect?

21:05 Stavros: sure

21:05 now swank crashed, let me restart both

21:06 devn: kk

21:06 Stavros: connected again

21:06 is a repl supposed to open up, or what?

21:07 all i get is the scratch buffer

21:08 devn: Stavros: can you C-x C-b and open the messages buffer and the slime-events buffer

21:08 and tell me if you see anything that is an obvious error

21:09 Stavros: what version of emacs

21:09 Stavros: nope, slime-events seems to contain info about the connection, clojure etc

21:09 23

21:09 and messages says "updating buffer list" a few times

21:10 devn: Stavros: did you install slime-repl, slime, and clojure-mode via the package-list-packages?

21:10 Stavros: oh, let me check about clojure-mode

21:10 how can i search in an emacs buffer, like / in vim?

21:10 devn: C-s

21:10 Stavros: thanks

21:12 i installed clojure-mode now and restarted everything, but still no repl :/

21:12 devn: Stavros: could you try a M-x slime and see if that fixes anything for you?

21:12 Stavros: oh, should i also install swank-clojure?

21:13 M-x slime says it can't find lisp

21:13 devn: it's weird that it says you're connected but then doesn't open a buffer

21:13 ive never had that happen

21:13 DespiteItAll: I thought there was a command for that. slime-scratch or something

21:13 devn: ill screen share over skype with you if you want

21:13 err if you want to screen share with me

21:14 DespiteItAll: yeah, try M-x slime-scratch

21:14 oh wait, that's not what you want

21:15 Apage43: fff; Clojure is addictive. I'm supposed to be writing erlang, I am using Clojure with the erlang JInterface..

21:15 devn: Stavros: http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Emacs

21:15 err i dont think that's slime though

21:15 Stavros: let me read that

21:16 devn: it's not really worth your time, ive told you everything at the bottom basically

21:16 Stavros: hmm

21:16 devn: package-list-packages, install slime-repl, slime, clojure-mode, add swank clojure to your project.clj, lein deps, lein swank, M-x slime-connect [RET] [RET]

21:16 Stavros: oh there we go

21:16 i installed another package

21:16 slime-clojure i think?

21:17 devn: i think it's slime-repl you needed

21:17 Stavros: now it works

21:17 devn: wooo!

21:17 Stavros: yay

21:17 i had slime-repl, it was something with clojure in it for sure

21:17 devn: Stavros: do you know about clojuredocs?

21:17 Stavros: hm no

21:17 devn: http://clojuredocs.org/

21:17 they're your friend! :)

21:18 Stavros: oh, very nice

21:18 devn: Stavros: how about clojars? http://clojars.org

21:18 search for 'html' for instance, and click on a random library in the list

21:18 Stavros: i don't know enough to understand what clojars is yet, i think

21:18 oh

21:18 is it libraries i can include?

21:18 devn: Stavros: basically they're just libraries like swank-clojure was

21:19 Stavros: so i just add one to project.clj and do lein deps?

21:19 devn: you add them to :dependencies or :dev-dependecies depending on wha tyou want and lein deps

21:19 bingo

21:19 Stavros: don't i have to add the repo somehow?

21:19 how will clojure know where to get the packages from?

21:19 devn: nope, lein knows

21:19 Stavros: oh good

21:19 this looks very nice

21:19 devn: you can specify external repos if you'd like as well

21:19 Stavros: so what can i do with emacs?

21:19 aha

21:20 devn: Stavros: well, like i was saying earlier

21:20 at the user> prompt type: reverse| where | is your cursor

21:21 Stavros: okay

21:21 devn: type M-., put your cursor on the word "reduce" in that defn, type M-.

21:21 type M-, to go back

21:21 Stavros: haha, nice

21:21 hey, that's great!

21:21 devn: Stavros: it's not just for clojure-core or contrib either

21:21 this works for the third party libs i showed you on clojars

21:21 Stavros: ah

21:22 i'll need to learn how to open buffers and copy stuff between them first, though

21:22 devn: Stavros: are you on OSX or Linux?

21:22 Stavros: so i can copy things from the repl to a code file

21:22 linux

21:22 ubuntu

21:22 devn: and are you using emacs with GTK?

21:22 so it's a window and not in a terminal buffer?

21:22 Stavros: it's gtk, yes

21:23 i ran emacs in the terminal, but it popped up the gtk one

21:24 devn: okay well, the first thing you need to learn in emacs is how to navigate, 1. C-n, C-p, C-f, C-b, 2. M-f, M-b, 3. C-v, M-v

21:25 Stavros: ah, nice

21:25 i can see why people's pinkies hurt :p

21:25 devn: buffers: C-x b, C-x C-b, selecting text: C-SPACE M-f M-f C-SPACE M-x

21:25 TimMc: Stavros: Map CapsLock to Ctrl

21:25 Stavros: TimMc: i tried that, i couldn't get used to it easily

21:26 devn: Stavros: in emacs selection is "marking"

21:26 so C-SPACE begins a mark, C-SPACE closes a mark, then you take action upon the marked "region"

21:26 M-x is copy

21:26 C-y is paste

21:27 C-w is cut, C-k is vim's 'D', but in emacs when you do a C-k you add it to your killring

21:27 Stavros: okay this doesn't work in the repl

21:27 devn: Stavros: why doesnt what work?

21:28 Stavros: i did C-SPACE, marked things and C-SPACE again, but M-x only gave me the thing where i enter commands

21:28 devn: oh duh i mixed that up Stavros

21:28 Stavros: and pressing C-SPACE after marking says "mark set" but doesn't do much else

21:28 devn: M-w is what i meant

21:28 Stavros: oh

21:29 that works!

21:29 devn: :D

21:29 Stavros: how can i switch panes?

21:29 like, go to the left pane

21:29 devn: C-x o

21:29 Stavros: ah great

21:30 and how can i close the buffer in this pane?

21:30 devn: Shift + left,right,up,down arrows i think will also work

21:30 if technomancy added that to the starter kit

21:30 Stavros: ah they do

21:30 yep

21:30 devn: also, C-c C-z might work for you to switch between the repl and a clojure-mode buffer

21:30 Stavros: hmm no

21:30 it takes me back to the repl window

21:31 how can i close a buffer, though?

21:31 hmm, D

21:31 in the buffer list

21:31 devn: there are many ways

21:31 C-x k will "kill" a buffer

21:31 if you just want it out of your way you can "bury" it

21:32 C-tab

21:32 or C-c y

21:32 C-tab will let you cycle buffers quickly

21:32 it's like alt+tab

21:32 Stavros: aha, that looks like it cycles them

21:32 yes

21:32 TimMc: grah

21:32 Stavros: although C-tab is undefined for me

21:32 C-c y works

21:32 TimMc: I installed the starter kit, and now my menubar is gone.

21:33 devn: :D

21:33 Stavros: TimMc: mine too

21:33 TimMc: devn: :-(

21:33 devn: yeah i have to undo some of technomancy's hackerish changes

21:33 that's one of them

21:33 Stavros: not much of a *starter* kit :p

21:33 TimMc: Screw that, then.

21:33 devn: let me find the line in my config for you...

21:33 Stavros: how can i open the config in emacs?

21:33 TimMc: If it's a starter kit, don't take away starter tools.

21:33 Stavros: or any file

21:33 TimMc: Stavros: C-x C-f

21:34 devn: Stavros: i have a better way!

21:34 :D

21:34 C-x r j i

21:34 (i think this works by default in the starter kit)

21:34 C-x r[egister] j[ump] i[nit.el]

21:35 you can define more of those in starter-kit-registers.el

21:35 Stavros: aha, that works

21:35 although C-x C-f is the general way, so thanks

21:35 devn: C-x f will list "recent" files

21:35 which can be handy

21:36 Stavros: i've readded the menu bar and things, how do i save the file?

21:36 devn: C-x 5 2 will make a new frame or "window"

21:36 C-x C-s

21:36 Stavros: ah yes, new window

21:36 devn: Stavros: i have to say you're probably one of the only people ive met who weren't immediately dumbfounded and/or annoyed by picking up some basic emacs

21:36 Stavros: how do i quit emacs, by the way?

21:36 devn: C-x C-c

21:37 Stavros: devn: haha, thanks

21:37 okay i have a menu

21:37 so, C-x C-f project file

21:37 devn: Stavros: if you dont want to reload emacs, if you're in init.el and want to try something out

21:37 let's say you did (+ 1 2)| and | is your cursor

21:37 C-x C-e

21:37 boom, it's now live

21:37 Stavros: hmm let me try that

21:38 devn: so if you modify some setting for emacs in your init.el or another .el file and C-x C-e the s-exp

21:38 Stavros: hmm

21:38 devn: it will affect the whole environment immediately

21:38 Stavros: haha yes

21:38 that works

21:38 my menu is gone again, nice

21:39 although now i need to restart it

21:39 devn: it can be nice when you have 10 things open and you want to add a hotkey quick and dont want to have to restart to load it or make sure everything is "safe"

21:39 Stavros: because commenting the s-exp i can't C-x C-e it

21:39 yep

21:39 devn: im guessing it's a (setq ...) or something

21:39 Stavros: yep

21:39 devn: instead of it being (setq foo t), make it (setq foo nil)

21:40 and C-x C-e that

21:40 Stavros: that's okay, i just commented it out

21:40 how can i abort a command?

21:40 devn: C-g

21:40 Stavros: like, say i press M-x by mistake

21:40 then C-g?

21:40 devn: *nod*

21:40 Stavros: great

21:40 that's not so hard then

21:40 i can already edit my files in emacs

21:40 devn: C-h a is awesome

21:41 C-h a, then type buffer, and hit RET

21:41 Stavros: does that list all the commands?

21:41 are these commands also lisp functions?

21:41 devn: that match "buffer", so now you can read documentation about them, find the one you're looking for, map it to a hotkey, etc.

21:42 Stavros: ah, so can i defn my own function in my init.el and assign it to a hotkey or M-x it?

21:42 devn: not all of them Stavros, there are variables and functions,

21:42 Stavros: yes exactly

21:42 Stavros: ah, that's very nice

21:42 so this entire thing is programmable

21:42 devn: so if you select a region of text and you're like "how do i make this capitalized" or something

21:42 you can use apropos to search for a function that does that

21:42 then M-x myfunction on your selection

21:42 Stavros: aha, capitalize-region

21:42 interesting

21:43 devn: you're a natural

21:43 i dont need to teach you anything else

21:43 C-h t is the tutorial for what it's worth

21:43 but i find trial by fire to be a more interesting way to learn

21:43 Stavros: i think C-h a will be enough, thanks :p

21:43 yep

21:43 i hope i don't forget the basics, though

21:44 devn: I was relying heavily on the arrow keys as a crutch

21:44 Stavros: i like the arrow keys, even in vim

21:44 devn: so i did this: (global-unset-key [right])...etc.

21:44 to force me to use C-n, p etc

21:44 Stavros: i think i'll keep them, save my pinky :p

21:45 by the way, what's C-x?

21:45 devn: also, if you dont remap caps to control

21:45 you're insane

21:45 Stavros: haha, i might, later on

21:45 devn: IIRC C-x is a prefix for file operations mainly

21:45 but its not completely specific to them

21:45 Stavros: ah

21:45 yeah because C-x C-b is buffers

21:45 devn: ive seen things like: C-x ; r u

21:45 or something

21:45 Stavros: hmm now i have two repls

21:45 devn: where C-x ; is a prefix on its own

21:46 like C-x r j i

21:46 Stavros: ah

21:46 devn: C-x r j is the prefix

21:46 Stavros: yep

21:46 hmm, if i have a clojure file in there, can i run it?

21:47 devn: also, if you're a hardcore vim guy viper-mode will give you lots of vim-like functionality, but in my experience is a bigger pain because you still have to do some emacs stuff the emacs way

21:47 Stavros: or do i have to call clojure externally?

21:47 yeah, i think i better stick to the native stuff

21:48 devn: Stavros: how do you mean?

21:49 Stavros: a couple more slime tricks before i take off: in your REPL buffer type , and then TAB to see what is available

21:49 Stavros: haha

21:49 i typed s and it quit

21:50 devn: weird

21:50 Stavros: nah it's short for sayonara

21:50 devn: oh haha

21:50 Stavros: sayoonara, rather

21:50 devn: but yeah, basically C-x C-e will let you evaluate an (s-exp)| in the REPL from a clojure-mode file

21:51 C-c C-k will compile a whole file onto the repl

21:51 Stavros: oh, let me try that

21:51 devn: C-c M-p will let you se the namespace of the repl (autocomplete works there)

21:52 so if you have (ns foo.bar)| C-x C-e, C-c M-p foo[TAB][TAB], you'll see foo.bar, hit RET and now your namespace is foo.bar in your REPL

21:53 Stavros: oh, i think i'll forget that by the time i learn about namespaces

21:53 devn: Stavros: one more crazy one for you that blows my mind

21:53 Stavros: or need to use them, anyway

21:53 devn: in your REPL type reduce|

21:53 C-c C-w C-c

21:54 it shows you were reduce is called in clojure.core -- if you have third party libs it'd show you those places as well

21:54 Stavros: hahaha

21:54 devn: there's lots more but you'll discover them on your own

21:54 Stavros: fantastic

21:54 and if i pick one it shows the source in the other pane

21:54 devn: SLIME > *

21:54 best. development. tool. ever.

21:55 Stavros: i had a question but i forgot now :/

21:56 devn: Stavros: i idle pretty much all the time in here, if you ever need some help please msg me

21:56 TimMc: Still trying to get slime-repl.

21:56 Stavros: oh yes, it was this

21:56 if i have a command, can i find its hotkey?

21:56 like, deleteline

21:56 devn: yes

21:56 C-h k

21:56 type the hotkey

21:57 TimMc: devn: I think that's the opposite.

21:57 Stavros: no, i mean the other way

21:57 although that's also nice

21:57 oh C-h a <command> tells you what it's bound to

21:57 so undo is C-/

21:57 devn: C-h f will also work

21:57 for functions that are bound

21:58 Stavros: aha

21:58 devn: C-h m is helpful

21:58 it is the documentation for the mode

21:58 C-h a,m,f,k

21:59 and im probably missing a couple more, but those are the big ones

21:59 pdk`: yknow

21:59 Stavros: C-h is help?

21:59 pdk`: even though i know it's ugly as sin

21:59 realizing how i'm writing stufff like (-> seq (first) (first) (first)) now

21:59 devn: Stavros: *nod* it's a prefix command for the help commands

21:59 pdk`: kinda makes you want to reach for cdadr type fns

21:59 Stavros: devn: that's very useful

22:00 are there any more niceties to editing lisp?

22:00 like, making scopes different colors?

22:00 so i can see right away what's what?

22:00 devn: Stavros: i dont use that, but yeah im sure there's something like that

22:00 Stavros: what do you use?

22:00 just the default of no colors?

22:00 devn: and if there isnt there are two modes on the emacs wiki that could be put together

22:01 Stavros: in the REPL?

22:01 Stavros: no, in a buffer

22:01 devn: for a clojure file?

22:01 Stavros: yes

22:01 devn: you dont have syntax hilighting?

22:01 Stavros: i do, the syntax is highlighted, but not scopes

22:01 although they are indented, so i guess it doesn't matter

22:02 devn: *nod* -- well, some folks like rainbow parens

22:02 oh Stavros on that not, technomancy added C-c n to the starter kit

22:02 that handles reindentation

22:02 Stavros: oh

22:02 haha it worked

22:02 devn: but Stavros there are a couple of things i suggest w/r/t to that point

22:02 1. paredit mode makes scopes less of an issue

22:03 and 2. without even googling i know for sure someone has done something like you're suggesting

22:03 i just dont know what it's called off the top of my head

22:03 im sure it's been done though, without a doubt

22:03 Stavros: what's paredit?

22:03 devn: structural editing

22:03 Stavros: hmm

22:03 devn: in your clojure source file do you see "Paredit" on the mode line?

22:04 Stavros: hmm no, [? clojure 1] Fill

22:05 devn: Stavros: M-x package-list-packages

22:05 do you see "durendal" in that list?

22:06 Stavros: yes

22:06 should i install it?

22:06 pdk`: [21:53] <Stavros> like, making scopes different colors? <- you can have parens be rainbowed at any rate

22:06 devn: yeah grab it

22:06 pdk`: colored differently based on how far nested they are

22:06 Stavros: done

22:06 devn: rainbow parens can get kind of nasty

22:06 Stavros: pdk`: hmm

22:06 pdk`: eg (((hello)))

22:06 devn: IMO

22:06 pdk`: you can have the parens in that case

22:06 go from the outermost level being red

22:06 to fading from red->orange->yellow as it goes inward

22:06 Stavros: aha

22:07 pdk`: and in the reverse on the )'s as it goes back outward

22:07 Stavros: i don't know if it's an issue, really

22:07 devn: Stavros: I have a hotkey I set

22:07 Stavros: i've only started learning lisp today

22:07 devn: (global-set-key (kbd "C-c C-(") 'mark-sexp)

22:07 Stavros: what does mark-sexp do?

22:07 pdk`: you'll start building up piles of ))))))))'s at the end of your fns fast :p

22:08 devn: if you're here: |(foo (bar (baz)))

22:08 Stavros: pdk`: ah :;p

22:08 devn: and you type C-c C-(

22:08 pdk`: you don't really end up with a lot of (((((( though since it's generally going to be a function that's the first item of a seq

22:08 devn: it selects the whole thing

22:09 Stavros: oh

22:09 devn: so you can be in some big composite (foo (foozle (bar (bazzle |(bob alice (cindy 1))))))

22:09 and it will select (bob alice (cindy 1))

22:09 Stavros: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PareditCheatsheet

22:11 the ones i use the most are M-s, C-), M-j, M-S, and a couple others

22:11 Stavros: that's very useful

22:13 devn: M-s is a huge help, you're in some expression, you realize you dont want it wrapped anymore, M-s, surrounding parens vanish, delete a couple bits, make a new sexp with those bits by typing ( which gives you (|), type C-) to slurp up the args

22:13 like (foo|) a b c d

22:13 C-u 4 C-)

22:13 C-u is like '10 j' in vim

22:14 C-u 10 C-f goes forward 10 characters

22:14 Stavros: oh

22:14 devn: Stavros: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PareditCheatsheet

22:14 oops wrong link

22:14 http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/KeyboardMacros

22:14 that one

22:14 Stavros: yep, i'm there

22:14 ah

22:15 that's quite overwhelming :p

22:15 devn: i generally use M-x and a healthy dose of autocompletion

22:15 Stavros: how do you autocomplete?

22:15 oh

22:15 you mean in M-x

22:15 devn: TAB like a sonofabitch :)

22:15 Stavros: yeah

22:16 is there autocompletion in the buffer?

22:16 for the code?

22:16 devn: yes and no

22:16 IIRC the starter kit comes with a basic form of completion that completes symbols that exist in all of the current and open buffers

22:16 M-/ is "hippie-expand"

22:16 it is /awesome/

22:17 but, there are lots of completion packages for emacs

22:17 Stavros: oh that works, thanks!

22:17 devn: also, you may already have completion

22:17 Stavros: i do

22:17 devn: type M-[TAB]

22:17 when you have something like "red|"

22:18 in your clojure-mode buffer

22:18 Stavros: alt-tab just switches windows :p

22:18 devn: try your windows key

22:19 or command key if its a mac

22:19 windows + tab

22:19 Stavros: hmm nope

22:19 M-/ works fine, though

22:19 devn: my guess is you need to wrangle your keyboard layout a bit with xmodmap

22:19 but that's a pain and dont do it until you realize you want it

22:20 seriously consider remapping CAPS to control

22:20 Stavros: i think it'll be fine, especially with M-/

22:20 i will, later on :

22:20 devn: if you can get this far in emacs on your first try

22:20 Stavros: :P

22:20 devn: you can do a control key in the CAPS position

22:20 using CAPS is for losers anyways! this is established fact!

22:20 Stavros: i tried, but i have a few reflexes mapped to that so it's harder

22:20 i always do ctrl+s while typing :p

22:21 devn: :)

22:21 Stavros: damn, it's 5 am

22:21 i better go to sleep and continue tomorrow

22:21 thanks a lot for your help!

22:21 devn: you're going to find yourself after a few months of doing C-x r j i in rapid speed

22:21 Stavros: i've always wanted to learn emacs

22:21 devn: Stavros: glad i could help you out -- i think im going to print this damned conversation and fix my typos and blog it

22:22 Stavros: you should, it was very helpful as a primer

22:22 plus i know i'll need to go back to it for things

22:22 devn: cheers, and enjoy the concurrency

22:22 :)

22:22 Stavros: thanks :)

22:22 bye!

22:23 TimMc: devn: I got a .emacs from a friend who writes Clojure for Akamai, I think I'll just start with that.

22:24 Now that I know open, save, undo, cancel, quit, and switchbuffer... I think I'm good.

22:24 The REPL can wait until I'm more familiar with emacs.

22:27 devn: TimMc: between #emacs and #clojure you should be all good

22:27 TimMc: heh

22:27 devn: :)

22:28 TimMc: The trick is remapping my fingers.

22:28 I am *very* used to CUA.

22:28 devn: the trick is aliasing all of your editors to emacs ;)

22:28 TimMc: eep

22:28 devn: dont let yourself give up -- it takes a little time, but i made the switch from vim and would never go back

22:29 TimMc: I *really* need to print a cheatsheet out.

22:29 A PDF isn't enough.

22:29 devn: write your own -- that's my suggestion -- lots of hotkeys are useless for me

22:30 TimMc: hmm

22:30 devn: i just go through a mode's documentation and write them down - take note of functions which arent mapped, and have built my own sheet

22:30 i take a pass through every couple of months and drop stuff ive internalized

22:30 rinse and repeat

22:31 TimMc: How do I switch to last active buffer?

22:31 Derander: c-x b ret

22:31 devn: :)

22:31 Derander: probably

22:32 devn: there's also (switch-to-previous-buffer)

22:33 TimMc: Derander: Ah, that works.

22:33 I hadn't noticed that they were in most-recently-used order.

22:34 dnolen: wow writing complex macros in Scheme r5rs is crazy.

22:35 TimMc: dnolen: I love syntax-rules.

22:35 (For when it is sufficient.)

22:36 devn: TimMc: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SwitchingBuffers

22:36 dnolen: hola, defn => devn

22:37 dnolen: TimMc: yes I like syntax-rules for the commoner tasks. Reading over this paper on Macros written in CPS to get more complex code transformations is a mind-bender. Thank god for Racket's Macro Stepper.

22:37 dev: hullo!

22:37 oops devn

22:38 devn: dnolen: how goes, buddy

22:38 TimMc: OK, g'night (UGT) folks. I'm gonna try to sleep on these emacs keybindings.

22:38 dnolen: not bad, not bad.

22:38 devn: dnolen: do you have any particularly awesome setup for emacs + scheme?

22:38 something on the order of swank-clojure etc.

22:39 dnolen: devn: Geiser rocks.

22:40 http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/

22:41 I actually use it for writing Racket source, but I fire up the IDE mainly for the Macro Stepper

22:43 joshua__: I'm getting: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.Exception: Release versions may not depend upon snapshots.

22:43 Set the LEIN_SNAPSHOTS_IN_RELEASE environment variable to override this. (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)

22:44 When I try try to use lein install on a dev server, but this doesn't happen on the local server..

22:44 Anyone have any clue whats going on?

22:47 DespiteItAll: I think if your deps include SNAPSHOTs it wants your version to be a -SNAPSHOT too

22:47 as to why it works on your local, i'm not sure

22:47 joshua__: I managed to do the equivalent of sudo to it by setting the variable and running the command on the same line.

22:48 and it worked

22:48 Thanks DespiteItAll, nice to know the 'why'

22:49 DespiteItAll: It seems to me, though, that too many libs are released only as snapshots for that to be a good rule

23:04 I swear, coming up with ideas is the hardest part of programming.

23:05 I want to mess with ring, but I have no idea what to do with it.

23:06 robink: DespiteItAll: Use it to port a FastCGI application written in C.

23:07 joshua__: DespiteItAll: You say that, but than you have to debug your bad ideas ;)

23:08 DespiteItAll: oh yeah, debugging stuff you didn't really want to write but wrote anyway because you couldn't think of anything better is the hardest part :)

23:11 Hmm, I should also be getting some experience setting up and managing a cloud environment. I could tie those two things together.

23:55 rata_: how do you use c.c.probabilities.monte-carlo?

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