#clojure log - Jun 18 2010

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0:02 hiredman: actually, it works for me

0:02 are you using a recent snapshot?

0:16 ceptorial: does anyone recommend a way to decide whether to use (:key map) or (map :key)?

0:35 rdsr: Hi all, on creating a table with a text data type I receive a sqlsyntaxexception

0:35 here's the gits http://gist.github.com/443235

0:35 *gist

0:35 I'm using the c.c.sql lib

0:36 The error mesg received is Syntax error: Encountered "" at line 1, column 91.

0:37 cemerick: hiredman: yeah, it works fine for me everywhere else too. I only created the gist because it sounded like you didn't think finally was supposed to work in conjunction with a recur in the try block.

0:42 hiredman: I can't say I am surprised though

0:43 rdsr: I'm using Derby as my DB

0:43 is text datatype not supported in that?

0:44 hiredman: try/catch/finally is a linked set of gotos and recur is a goto, so mixing them is bound to be interesting

0:44 rdsr: I'd check the derby docs

0:44 http://db.apache.org/derby/manuals/reference/sqlj123.html

0:45 rdsr: thks hiredman, doing that right now

0:46 hiredman: man, tail calls will be so much fun

0:47 rdsr: thks hiredman, I'm using CLOB instead now and it seems to work

1:27 zakwilson: clojure.xml/parse can't seem to handle the character \# in a filename.

2:20 daaku: i have this odd issue where `rlwrap clj` gives me reverse-i-search (Ctrl-r) correctly, but it doesn't work (nothing get's triggered) with `rlwrap lein repl` (i'm on a mac, with clojure 1.1) -- anyone have any ideas on why this might be?

2:21 hmm.. it seems like `lein repl` actually has it's own readline equivalent

2:26 oh, lein 1.2-snapshot has this fixed. cool

3:11 is there anything that offers real tab completion (live, not precomputed) in the command line repl?

3:13 raek: slime in emacs autocompletes vars in the current namespace

3:15 daaku: raek: i'm not invested enough yet to use/setup/learn emacs :(

3:15 wwmorgan: daaku: enclojure has decent autocompletion

3:16 daaku: wwmorgan: is that netbeans only?

3:16 wwmorgan: daaku: yes

3:17 daaku: i'm a vim user, i guess ideally i'd like to keep the repl separate and keep using my vim/screen setup

3:17 raek: was it enclojure that hade something similar to paredit?

3:23 daaku: interesting.. enclojure has support for a "standalone repl" mode

5:34 cad_from_austin: test

5:36 I was hoping for insight into an elusive clojure.contrib.sql problem. I have a read function that works when I load the code into a repl within the defining namespace, but that throws and error when the code is executed from another namespace with (:use defining.namespace). I actually get a jdbc error - check syntax

5:47 Fossi: test

5:47 DarthShrine: Test failed.

5:58 gerryxiao: ,(clojure-version)

5:58 clojurebot: "1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT"

5:58 gerryxiao: hello

5:59 cad_from_austin: I'd appreciate any help on the above, even "you don't understand namespaces"

5:59 gerryxiao: how to know whether the number is boxed?

5:59 ,(let [a 3] (class a))

5:59 clojurebot: java.lang.Integer

5:59 gerryxiao: ,(let [a (long 3)] (class a))

5:59 clojurebot: java.lang.Long

6:02 gerryxiao: (defn ^:static fib ^long [^long n] nil)

6:03 ,(defn ^:static fib ^long [^long n] nil)

6:03 clojurebot: DENIED

6:15 mikem: I see some symbols used inside macros which end with a # -- what does that signify?

6:16 LauJensen: mikem: thats gensym, gives it a unique name in the expansion

6:16 mikem: LauJensen: ok, that makes sense. thank you!

6:17 hoeck: cad_from_austin: please paste your code somewhere (and maybe the exception you get)

6:18 cad_from_austin: Mikem: I've actually just now resolved the problem, but have another question

6:18 I wound up just restarting swank. Is there something I should know about copy and pasting files from my source to the repl?

6:20 mikem: cad_from_austin: I think you meant hoeck :)

6:20 hoeck: cad_from_austin: basicall not, if the namespace has been previously loaded into the repl

6:20 *basically

6:22 cad_from_austin: do you copy whole files literally into the repl?

6:22 cad_from_austin: (require 'the.namespace :reload) should be more convenient

6:22 cad_from_austin: Pretty often, yes.

6:24 LauJensen: hoeck: or :reload-all

6:36 cad_from_austin: Where should I put the reload-all?

6:38 Christ, nevermind. I got it.

6:39 LauJensen: cad_from_austin: Sorry - I had that line on my screen the whole time, but because there was no highlighting, my mind seemed to have filtered it out ... scary :)

6:40 Raynes: Likewise, actually. :|

6:40 I was playing tetris. :)

6:46 LauJensen: Raynes: The penumbra version? :)

6:46 Raynes: Not a Clojure tetris.

6:46 I suck at graphics programming.

6:46 cad_from_austin: LauJenson: Which line?

6:47 Raynes: cad_from_austin: The line where you asked where to put reload-all

6:47 cad_from_austin: Ah.

6:51 Holy crap this is useful. Thanks guys.

6:51 Raynes: Reload is a gift from the great brackety gods.

8:01 eevar2: icfp starting now-ish

8:14 LauJensen: Raynes: Doesnt matter if you suck. Tetris is in one of the demos that come with Penumbra :)

8:16 Raynes: LauJensen: Oh.

8:36 Licenser: hmm reading the page about statics it looks impresive!

8:36 LauJensen: Licenser: When will you learn, its just a prank, clojure will never be statically typed

8:37 Licenser: LauJensen: I'm vaxinated against learning, it was a long and painfull process, including torture, brainwashing and humiliation - I think they called it school

8:38 LauJensen: Ouch - Just say no

8:38 Anyway, Im kidding of course, statics are cool

8:38 Licenser: :P

8:58 I start to dislike all that meta annotation stuff :( it gets to look more complicated then useful

8:59 LauJensen: Because they changed #^ to ^ ?

8:59 Licenser: No but reading the code in the example it starts to look odd

9:00 too much of ^ in there

9:00 LauJensen: But you so rarely need it, its not a general thing

9:00 Licenser: yes but it'd look cooler if it were a macro/special form/function

9:00 Twey: Isn't it deprecated for (meta …) anyway?

9:00 Licenser: like (static ...)

9:00 Twey: Oh, right, I see.

9:01 LauJensen: I disagree

9:01 Licenser: what I mean is we start to have many many many special character combinations

9:01 Twey: (with-meta …)?

9:02 Licenser: reader macros are kind of cool on the one hand but if we end up with perlish charcter chaos it gets ugly

9:03 also the whole macro syntax can be quite cryptic

9:03 with @,~,` and '

9:03 now we also got $, and always had #(whatever behind it)

9:04 does it make any sense what I mean, i talk about readability here, it is code lengthy effective but can get cryptic quite quick sadly

9:16 raek: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/8c9b0574a83f6c77576325b724c837cf4143eb33/src/clj/clojure/java/io.clj#L263

9:16 shouldn't this be "make-output-stream"?

9:17 Licenser: one think I don't understand about the static stuff, will the static branch break the fact that numbers 'just work'?

9:20 raek: (output-stream (Socket. "clojure.org" 80)) throws "Cannot open <#<Socket Socket[addr=clojure.org/,port=80,localport=52729]>> as an OutputStream." for me...

9:20 but (input-stream ...) works fine...

9:21 Socket does not seem to be extended to IOFactory correctly

9:24 Licenser: raek: an output stream is a stream you can write to

9:25 and I might be mistaken but I don't think you can write to clojure.org's webserver

9:26 raek: that was just an example of something that yields a working socket

9:26 I'm aware of how HTTP works

9:26 Licenser: well but it is a read socket I think

9:26 not a write socket, at least I think

9:26 or wait no you should be able to write to it

9:26 raek: you need to send the request...

9:27 Licenser: oh details :P

9:27 but perhaps you need to wrap it in something before that?

9:27 I am confused but you may be right

9:27 raek: I think I can make a fix for this myself

9:28 but I haven't signed the CA yet

9:28 cemerick: rhickey: I tripped all over recur last night. Two problem cases: https://gist.github.com/e9bb4c44adf8d9a195dd

9:29 If I had a magic wand, recur from within the try block, regardless of target, would run the finally block. That may be too complicated to implement though.

9:30 raek: Sockets have two methods called getInputStream and getOutputStream

9:30 cemerick: In that case, recur out of a try should be disallowed.

9:30 However, it seems like recur whose target doesn't leave the try/catch/finally should be allowable.

9:30 raek: Socket is extended to clojure.java.io/IOFactory

9:31 but only half of the protocol is implemented

9:32 Licenser: heh

9:32 rhickey: cemerick: yes, recur + try needs work

9:34 cemerick: rhickey: Shall I open a ticket or is this a 10 minute quickie?

9:34 Licenser: hmm when I understand the mailing list correctly the new branches will remove automatic overflow to bigint? I find that a huge step backwards even for the sake of performance, I personally would not trade a easyer syntax / working for performance for the 'it just works' effect

9:34 rhickey: cemerick: it's a huge job and there are already tickets I think

9:35 cemerick: ok, I'll double check

9:35 tcrayford: cemerick: I keep on wanting to work on adding your "ideal clojure ide" features to intellij, but getting it build really sucks, and the guy who runs it is not good for help :(

9:36 I'm pretty sure I can implement most of them pretty quickly, just doing so outside of emacs looks like a right pain

9:36 cemerick: rhickey: If it's any easier, a temporary change to disallow recur from try entirely would be preferable to the silent dropping of the finally IMO.

9:37 rhickey: cemerick: you are talking about case #2, yeah, I don't know why that's not caught

9:37 cemerick: rhickey: right, that's really painful

9:37 rhickey: currently it's mostly draconian about it

9:37 cemerick: you really wrote something like #2?

9:39 cemerick: rhickey: yes, I had a recur in the try, with a loop target outside the try, and a finally block that was deleting the temp files that were being looped through after they were processed in the try. I kept running out of disk. :-)

9:39 whoa, I botched that sentence :-O

9:40 mikem: what's the easiest way to launch a clojure script from the command line without compiling it first?

9:40 cemerick: similar to (loop [[file & files] files] (when file (try (process-file file) (recur files) (finally (.delete file))))), but with a lot more stuff going on :-)

9:42 tcrayford: mikem: there's a bash script included in contrib

9:42 http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/master/launchers/bash/clj-env-dir

9:43 mikem: tcrayford: ok, looking at it now

9:43 cemerick: tcrayford: hrm, yeah, I've heard similar things. :-( I had high hopes when IDEA open-sourced the base, but there doesn't seem to have been a lot of traction on any IntelliJ open-source projects that I've heard of.

9:43 tcrayford: cemerick: I emailed the author about it in april, and still haven't got a response

9:44 I already know how to write most of the stuff you've requested, might just go and do it in emacs and then ask the people who write the IDEs to steal it

9:46 cemerick: tcrayford: I don't think there's a lot of stuff there that's truly difficult, the tough part is getting it in one place and making it accessible to a broad audience.

9:46 danlucraft: tcrayford: I would steal anything you wrote for Redcar if you OKed it

9:47 tcrayford: danlucraft: if I do this, the first thing in the readme is going to be a note for IDE writers to steal everything and anything they want

9:47 danlucraft: brill

9:49 tcrayford: though note that most of my stuff requires access to a running repl which has all of the source code loaded into it

9:49 (for whatever project is being worked on)

9:50 cemerick: danlucraft: what's the UI toolkit you're using?

9:50 danlucraft: swt

9:51 cemerick: it is written in jruby then?

9:51 danlucraft: cemerick: yep. almost entirely

9:51 cemerick: ah, ok

9:51 you should change your FAQ :-)

9:52 danlucraft: hmm

9:52 cemerick: to say it's written in JRuby?

9:52 done!

9:53 cemerick: I read your posts on ideal clojure env

9:53 made some notes

9:53 I saw you said "Textmate (!)" :)

9:53 cemerick: I think I only made one, but sure. :-)

9:53 Yeah, TM is an oddball choice for sure.

9:53 danlucraft: what's the ! for?

9:53 tcrayford: danlucraft: the problem for him is that redcar won't have amazing java support like the other ides

9:53 cemerick: IMO, anyway

9:54 danlucraft: cemerick: I mean, I think I get it, but why would you say ™ is no good for clojure?

9:54 * tcrayford gives up on doing the icfp contest to write ide stuff for clojure

9:55 cemerick: danlucraft: Well, there's not much to the bundle, and TM is a bit of a dead-end until someone writes a replacement. ;-)

9:55 tcrayford: cemerick: a bunch of the stuff you have in there is already in swank (find usages, go to declaration), and the IDE people could definitely yoink that

9:57 cemerick: tcrayford: Yeah, but actually implementing the functionality isn't the hard part.

9:57 integrating it into the IDE is.

9:57 tcrayford: very true

9:57 cemerick: e.g. getting discovered namespaces recognized as "types" is a good example

9:58 danlucraft: what's a discovered namespace?

9:59 as opposed to a regular namespace?

9:59 mikem: tcrayford: ok, I got the clj-env-dir script working, however it seems my .clj file needs an explicit call to (main) in order to run. is it possible to invoke main from the command line somehow?

9:59 tcrayford: mikem: I don't know, I just use lein for everything :/

9:59 cemerick: danlucraft: one that your editor or build tool has recognized as a namespace to support navigating to it or compiling it.

10:00 mikem: tcrayford: hehe ok, no worries :)

10:00 thanks for the help

10:03 danlucraft: cemerick: ok

10:07 rhickey: cemerick: you haven't weighed in yet on the ggroup re: enhanced primitives. More naysayers right now.

10:08 djpowell: hmm, would it be good for clojure.main to support running the (-main) function somehow?

10:09 cemerick: djpowell: there's a ticket for that, I think technomancy opened it

10:09 rhickey: I'll dig in a little later -- but, I'm on very shaky ground there. I fail forward when it comes to mathy stuff. :-(

10:16 rhickey: looks like 4:1 against, if I can summarize so callously. And here I was focusing on equality semantics.

10:16 mmarczyk: incidentally, I wonder if the introduction of the num/prim/equal branches means that 1.2 is settled and basically in testing?

10:17 (surely this stuff isn't meant for inclusion at this stage)

10:18 cemerick: thanks for prodding me along re: the ca, by the way, should arrive sometime soon (today? Monday?) :-)

10:18 cemerick: mmarczyk: excellent :-) I'm already using the multi-comparator :-)

10:18 mmarczyk: cemerick: oh cool, happy to hear that :-)

10:19 cemerick: mmarczyk: apparently it is intended for 1.2

10:19 * mmarczyk gasps

10:20 Licenser: so I might hold a short presentation of clojure on a ruby meeting, I know some of you already did some presentations, are there any advice what are good points to tacke?

10:21 mmarczyk: am I correct in estimating that this would make 1.1 -> 1.2 a bigger deal than Python 2.6 -> 3.1 ? :-)

10:22 cemerick: yeah, it's already a pretty huge release compared to 1.1

10:23 mmarczyk: I would have thought that the new numeric stuff would require a pretty significant testing effort before release, while the other stuff is probably pretty well tested already

10:23 cemerick: well, there's a fairly large body of automated tests

10:24 but yeah, I think adding the prim, static, etc stuff will extend the stewing period

10:24 note there's not been a beta release yet *shrug*

10:24 mmarczyk: true

10:24 * tcrayford wants 1.2 to be released so that c-in-c gets started

10:24 cemerick: hanging out in #clojure makes one think everything's just around the corner

10:24 Licenser: heh

10:25 tcrayford: you can start c-in-c already :P

10:25 * mmarczyk was pretty sure 1.2 was just around the corner

10:25 tcrayford: hah :P

10:25 mmarczyk: ;-)

10:25 Licenser: I mean many of use are already using 1.2 I guess

10:25 mmarczyk: I know I do

10:26 protocols / records are really pretty helpful

10:26 Licenser: yap

10:26 tcrayford: man this is sorta confusing

10:26 Licenser: tcrayford: what is?

10:26 tcrayford: ,(= '() (map identity '()))

10:26 clojurebot: true

10:26 _fogus_: Someone started a 1.1 REPL and I felt physically ill. I wondered how they got along without types/protos/records

10:26 tcrayford: that

10:27 mmarczyk: tcrayford: huh?

10:27 tcrayford: (= empty-seq empty-list)

10:27 mmarczyk: _fogus_: so, prudence (staying on the stable boat &c.) has adverse effects on your health? ;-)

10:28 not to say I wouldn't feel similar, though I'm afraid I have a sillier reason (how could we live with #^ in place of ^!?) :-)

10:29 silveen: Does anyone know of a bb2html'ish PHP script that handles code syntax highlight for different languages?

10:29 tcrayford: I can sorta understand why the empty seq is equal to the empty list (they print the same), but its still somewhat weird

10:31 djpowell: ,(= '() (sequence nil))

10:31 clojurebot: true

10:31 mmarczyk: ,(= [] ())

10:31 clojurebot: true

10:31 tcrayford: ah

10:32 that makes sense

10:32 _fogus_: equality partitions ftw

10:32 rhickey: _fogus_: got slides?

10:33 _fogus_: for the talk last night?

10:33 rhickey: yes

10:33 _fogus_: I will have them up today

10:35 it was a fun talk. but I think I talked too fast :(

10:35 * _fogus_ bad public speaker

10:36 tcrayford: practice gets you better

10:36 liebke: _fogus_: You did a great job, I enjoyed it a lot!

10:37 _fogus_: liebke: Thanks! I thought the Q&A was pretty thoughtful

10:37 liebke: I agree

10:37 _fogus_: People seemed genuinely excited about Clojure/core also

10:38 rhickey: liebke: want to clean up the incanter test failures on equal branch? mostly things of the (= 113.0 113) variety. Would need to become (= 113.0 113.0) or (== 113.0 113) Any such fixes would be backward compatible

10:39 liebke: I think they were more excited about trying to improve Clojure's out-of-box experience :-)

10:39 rhickey: liebke: it's breaking my argos tests

10:39 liebke: rhickey: will do

10:39 rhickey: liebke: thanks

10:39 liebke: I told them about how I kept breaking your argos tests :)

10:40 rhickey: heh

10:40 I love having argos

10:40 liebke: I love you having argos

10:40 _fogus_: love fest

10:42 technomancy: group hug!

10:43 liebke: technomancy: we also talked about your keyboard pants, and the future of wearable computers :)

10:45 technomancy: sweet.

10:45 liebke: I'm considering making mouse-shoes

10:45 technomancy: clojurians have a nose for futurism

10:46 liebke: I am actually considering a foot pedal for mic mute to assist with voip pairing

10:46 would make it easier to work in noisy coffee shops with bean grinders going off in the background

10:46 liebke: you are the future :)

10:46 _fogus_: treat him well

10:46 liebke: ah, you're pairing at coffee shops, that's cool

10:47 technomancy: hehe

10:49 rhickey: so, only inc, dec, +, -, * have overflow issues. If you are in favor of the default being throw on overflow, what suffix would you suggest for the promoting versions, and vice versa, if the default was promote, what suffix for the throwing versions?

10:51 Licenser: static-inc static-dec static-+ static-- (looks ugly) static-* (or stat- or just s-)

10:51 rhickey: e.g. things like +n for generic [n]umeric addition, or +o for addition with [o]verflow or [o]ptimized

10:51 Licenser: or inc! +! -! *!

10:52 vu3rdd: _fogus_: is your capclug presentation available somewhere for download?

10:52 rhickey: Licenser: ! for 'hurry up!' ?

10:52 Licenser: ! for hurry up! for watch out! for might throw!

10:52 generaly for need to look at this!

10:52 mmarczyk: I'd go with prim-add / fast-add or something for fast math

10:53 Licenser: and it'd be consistant with the transistant things ! functions are faster but need special care

10:53 mmarczyk: but Licenser's idea is pretty cool :-)

10:53 oh, that's true (the parallel to transients)

10:53 Licenser: and it also says 'I freaking know what I'm doing!!!!'

10:54 _fogus_: how about +slow -slow *slow :p

10:54 Licenser: heh

10:54 vu3rdd: _fogus_: sorry, didn't read the conversation above. Looking forward to go thru it

10:54 mmarczyk: Licenser: yeah!

10:54 (inc Licenser)

10:55 _fogus_: vu3rdd: It should be (back) up later today. I took it down to move it but had to run

10:56 Licenser: we could also make it +§

10:57 which reminds me, clojure is the perfect language for lawyers you can call variables §3

10:59 Chousuke: I'd rather have + and - etc. be the fast ones

10:59 mmarczyk: just out of curiosity -- why?

10:59 Chousuke: If you anticipate that overflows will be a problem, you can prepare for it

11:00 mmarczyk: if you anticipate anything of the sort, you know what you're doing

11:00 Chousuke: meanwhile, anyone else writing regular maths code will get speed.

11:00 Licenser: Chousuke: but that is an expert decision and the default one should be what is surely good for non experts too

11:00 Chousuke: well, of course. Programmers can be expected to know what they're doing.

11:00 Licenser: Chousuke: In what world do you live?!? :P

11:01 just think bout it, when people start to write stuff and start with simple things as fact and boom things go down and they wonder why and have to figure out how to typehint and and and

11:01 AWizzArd: Hehe, can one translate it that directly from german to english?

11:01 Licenser: that isn't nice

11:01 mmarczyk: Chousuke: ah, that's just not true

11:01 Chousuke: Licenser: Except they won't need to typehint anything

11:02 mmarczyk: Chousuke: people should be expected to know enough about what they're doing

11:02 Chousuke: Licenser: they'll just need to use bigint literals.

11:02 Licenser: but finding out that there are two versions of +

11:02 mmarczyk: the smaller "enough" is, the better

11:02 Licenser: even worst o.O

11:02 mmarczyk: for the parts of the spectrum everyone touches upon

11:02 high performance math is not really something everyone touches upon

11:02 Licenser: I guess very little people do

11:02 mmarczyk: in particular, cemerick's State of Clojure has 53% of Clojurians do web apps

11:03 in which way is having fast math relevant to building a web app?

11:03 Licenser: and just to make sure people don't get it wrong, I do need fast math but I'd rather go the extra length to write +! where I know I can do it then having to write +n or whatever when I'm in doubt

11:03 mmarczyk: now not having exceptions because of maliciously formed numerals or whatever

11:03 might actually be relevant I guess

11:03 Licenser: an (inc) to that too

11:04 cemerick: mmarczyk: FWIW, maths are #2 in that list :-)

11:04 Chousuke: I'm not convinced that this would be a problem.

11:04 Licenser: yes #2 :P

11:04 mmarczyk: cemerick: yup, I remember :-)

11:04 Licenser: there is nothing worth more then 'it just works'

11:04 mmarczyk: cemerick: with what, around 1/3 of the community declaring an interest?

11:04 cemerick: 39%

11:04 mmarczyk: some of those guys might be Konrad Hinsen-types :-)

11:04 I mean, they want it slower :-P

11:05 see clojure.contrib.generic

11:05 Licenser: iPods are the most sold music players, Ruby went hugely up in the last years, apple computers in general did. And all of them because 'they just work'

11:05 Chousuke: Licenser: except when it doesn't, and you end up getting weird behaviour because some of your numbers are bigints and some aren't :P

11:05 cemerick: Licenser: all of which have nothing to do with a design decision in a programming language

11:06 Licenser: of cause

11:06 * cemerick says this without having a real position yet

11:06 mmarczyk: the present state of arithmetic in Clojure does mostly "just work" though


11:06 Chousuke: Licenser: Ruby still had broken strings in 1.8; how does that count as "just working" ;P

11:06 Licenser: at least ruby, last time I checked was a programming language, but let me fire up IRB and see if it starts to play songs but I think it will still be a programming language

11:07 Chousuke: it was ruby's goal and in a lot of cases it did, now we, when going for performance over promotion, are moving knowingly and willingly away from a it just works

11:07 cemerick: nope not playing songs, still a programming language

11:08 but that aside, yes all of them are totally relevant. In the end if a programming language 'does not sell' it is not worth squat

11:08 Chousuke: Licenser: Except it'll still just work in the vast majority of use cases :/

11:09 Licenser: well I think we won't know in how many cases it will not just work.

11:10 point is, when people get a odd exception (and sadly clojures are not very expressive) they'll be confused like hell

11:10 technomancy: that was 39% of "data analysis / math"

11:10 Chousuke: Licenser: an Integer Overflow exception is not very odd

11:10 * technomancy for one fell in the former

11:10 Licenser: Chousuke: when you don't delcare types it is :P

11:11 if it is statically typed it would be obviouse

11:14 Chousuke: for the record, I think ! would be a horrible suffix for the faster functions :P

11:14 it's as if you were mutating the numbers

11:15 Licenser: well that depends on how you definate !

11:15 mmarczyk: for the record, I'd still be fine with prim-add despite liking +! just fine ;-)

11:16 Licenser: Let me tell you a tale

11:16 Chousuke: I don't think prim-add is that good either. It works with bigints too doesn't it?

11:16 Licenser: back when I was at the university I decided to learn some programming languaegs - odd enoguh I know

11:16 mmarczyk: Chousuke: ah, fast-add than

11:16 something modelled on unchecked-add anyway

11:16 Licenser: the first and most important one I learned well started, was Smaltalk - a I think utterly dead and not used language

11:17 Chousuke: I don't think Smalltalk is dead, it's just hiding well :P

11:17 kinda like common lisp

11:17 Licenser: Not because I liked the concept, or the syntax or the ideas, back then I didn't cared. But because it had nice easy arithmetics. I could just implement RAS without importing classes for BigInt, BigNum or any other library specially for big numbers

11:18 now I did not learn Java, even so I could have done the same, or other languages, I found Smaltalk did that and weeeh I was happy

11:18 and I kind of want people to have the same happy feeling when they start clojure, that things just work when they write simple code and let experts worry for performance if it matters

11:18 rhickey: there are also people forced out of using languages they love because they aren't fast enough, and end up using C/Java

11:19 Licenser: but seriousely we need the fresh blood and everything that icks them is a bad move in my eyes, they should be given cookies, petted on the head and cared for, not scared off with people prim-add

11:19 Chousuke: so if we went with non-fast math by default, then what exactly would it require to be fast?

11:19 mmarczyk: rhickey: if there is an actual possibility of having a set of fast-add etc. operators, this shouldn't be the case here even without + defaulting to the new math behaviour, right...?

11:20 Licenser: rhickey: don't get me wrong, I don't say lets be slow but as I understand the tradeoff is 'it just works' vs 'it is just fast' right? In both cases everything is possible if 'it just works' we still can make things exactly as fast as 'it is just fast' just with extra effort for that code, and if we go for 'it is just fast' we still can write the tings that not just work any more just again with extra effort on that code right?

11:21 mmarczyk: anyway, I guess if + does default to fast, but there is a very clear path to safe, I'd just use the latter when unsure and be perfectly happy...

11:21 clojurebot: add-classpath is Fraught with Peril!

11:21 rhickey: mmarczyk: well, it's a case of how much work is it to be fast. If it is too much work, or too difficult to get right enough to be actually fast, then it won't be perceived as fast

11:21 Licenser: As I understand the question is not simple or fast but what should be the 'default' behaviour

11:22 what about a (fast) macro

11:22 rhickey: Licenser: there are many many programs that will 'just work' without ever creating a BigInteger

11:22 mmarczyk: rhickey: but if it is too much work or too difficult to avoid funky exceptions, than I have a feeling it won't be perceived as "safe", even if it technically is

11:22 Licenser: it is crazy but you could write (fast (defn bla [x y] (+ a b))

11:22 cemerick: yeouch

11:22 Licenser: rhickey: I know many many will but some will not, and 'just works' is a thing that either is or not 'it just works somethimes' is not 'it just works'

11:23 rhickey: mmarczyk: yes far less safe things, like Java will be used instead

11:23 cemerick: Licenser: for some, being fast is their version of "just works"

11:23 lpetit: I was wrong in my ml post. Having clojure throw an exception when there is an overflow will still preserve my data. So I'm OK with the suggestions. Java, in the other hand, will silently corrupt my data, giving me a false sense of security ( System.out.println(2 * Integer.MAX_VALUE) returns -2, for the record )

11:23 rhickey: cemerick: true also, performance as part of the acceptance criteria

11:23 Licenser: so what is about the deal with a fast macro - that would just work in both cases

11:24 Chousuke: and with the fast functions, you'd still be able to have "just works" math by using biginteger literals, right?

11:24 so (+ n 10N) will "just work"?

11:24 rhickey: fast macro etc definitely not going to happen

11:24 Chousuke: no matter what n is

11:24 Licenser: okay was just an idea

11:24 mmarczyk: rhickey: actually that's possible (though ridiculous), another possibility is, say, Ruby

11:24 Chousuke: and functions that do (+ n m) will just work as long as either n or m is a bigint

11:25 mmarczyk: not trying to sound like I understand the implications of all this better than I actually do, by the way, just trying to share what I'm worried about

11:25 qbg: With regards to the bigint issue, why not have a piece of metadata that you can put on a function definition that will enable aggressive use of primitives?

11:25 Licenser: qbg: I think that is the same as the fast macro

11:26 mmarczyk: I'll be happy to be put at my ease by an excellent story (a new one or possibly the current one at a new level of my comprehension)

11:26 Licenser: mmarczyk: one upon a time there was a cookie, this cookie was laying and the desc and then, oh horror a human came and eat it untill it was eaten.

11:27 Chousuke: :P

11:27 lpetit: Licenser: ^^^^ (that is, it works in both cases, if you consider the goal of data integrity)

11:27 mmarczyk: Licenser: I love the style, though I honestly can't figure out what you mean by that ;-)

11:27 Licenser: mmarczyk: I'm hungry

11:29 hmm rhickey don't get me wrong I'm all for fast, but I think it might annoy people who are new if they have to learn an extra layer of functions if they want to make things always work.

11:30 AWizzArd: Let's say I have a (defrecord Foo [a b c]). Now I have the Symbol 'Foo and the vec [10 20 30]. I would like to create a Foo instance out of those two objects. What is the right approach to do so without using eval? (apply (reolve 'Foo) [10 20 30]) won't work.

11:30 reolve ==> resolve

11:30 mmarczyk: do I understand correctly that (fn fact [n] (if (zero? n) 1 (* n (fact (dec n))))) is broken in prim/num ?

11:31 qbg: For definitions of "broken"

11:31 mmarczyk: if so, how does one write a function which computes the n! where the status of n as a primitive is left up to the caller to decide?

11:31 qbg: The writer coerces n to a bigint?

11:31 mmarczyk: (trying to understand exactly what is happening...)

11:32 rhickey: mmarczyk: with that definition:

11:32 user=> (fact 20)

11:32 2432902008176640000

11:32 user=> (fact 42)

11:32 java.lang.ArithmeticException: integer overflow (NO_SOURCE_FILE:73)

11:32 user=> (fact 42N)

11:32 1405006117752879898543142606244511569936384000000000N

11:32 user=> (fact 42.0)

11:32 1.4050061177528798E51

11:32 mmarczyk: hm, I see

11:32 Licenser: rhickey: so how if I make a clculater that gets a number from a input field

11:33 do the user has to type 42N in there or how do I handle it?

11:33 lpetit: AWizzArd: I guess you'll have to use reflection, but also to have the fully qualified named of the class ('Foo just gives you the class name, not the package)

11:33 rhickey: (bigint x)

11:34 Licenser: but then I'm back at where we started or even worst since it always is a bignum

11:34 so I lost speed, and added complexity which is in my eyes a loose loose situation

11:34 AWizzArd: apply does not work on new

11:34 qbg: new is a special form

11:34 AWizzArd: yes

11:34 rhickey: Licenser: everyone else lost speed to make you happy in the first place

11:35 lpetit: AWizzArd: of course. You have to use java API reflection. Maybe there's something in contrib masking it, hmm

11:35 Chousuke: AWizzArd: Use .newInstance on the class object to create objects dynamically

11:35 AWizzArd: Licenser: for a calculator bignums are the right objects, better not static longs.

11:36 hugod: do rationals work with primitives?

11:36 Licenser: rhickey: my point was there, if the inputs are not entirely controlable chances are good we will resort to casting everything to bignum in the first place - just to be sure

11:36 AWizzArd: .newInstance sounds good.. (apply #(.newInstance (resolve 'Foo) %&) [10 20 30]) ?

11:36 Licenser: that is whenever user input happens

11:36 rhickey: Licenser: and yet another trumped up theoretical example. Your calculator will be whole numbers only? If not, you were out of the integer space already

11:37 Chousuke: AWizzArd: I think it takes an array of objects as the constructor argument though.

11:37 AWizzArd: check the docs

11:38 Licenser: rhickey: it was an example to demonstrate a problem I see, I know it is not the perfect solution but working with inputed (may it be read from a file, database, or whatever) integers and then there will be the question

11:38 lpetit: ,(#(.newInstance (resolve 'String) %&) ["hello"])

11:38 clojurebot: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: newInstance for class java.lang.Class

11:38 Chousuke: I suppose a calculator would use BigDecimal

11:39 lpetit: an array, not a vector

11:39 Licenser: okay another question how, when we don't force primitives would we have to adjust fact up there to make it use promitevs?

11:39 Chousuke: lpetit: annnoying, isn't it :(

11:39 Licenser: (fn ^:static fact ^long [^long n] (if (zero? n) (long 1) (* n (fact (dec n))))) like that?

11:41 qbg: What about boxing a long as a FastBigint (or something similar) when passing a primitive long to an IFn?

11:43 mmarczyk: rhickey: tbh, asking for elaborate examples of code which breaks/benefits significantly is a bit much at this stage...

11:43 AWizzArd: Seems that .newInstances takes no args at all.

11:43 lpetit: Chousuke: more annoying is that you must first get the list of constructors and find the good one, also ...

11:45 cemerick: rhickey: there's that island dynamic playing out in real time http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2010-June/079044.html

11:45 AWizzArd: rhickey: would it make sense to teach apply to do (apply SomeClass [10 20 30]) ==> (SomeClass. 10 20 30) ?

11:46 mmarczyk: cemerick: amazing link

11:46 lpetit: AWizzArd: clojure.lang.Reflector to the rescue: ,(clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeConstructor (resolve 'String) (to-array ["lolo"]))

11:46 ,(clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeConstructor (resolve 'String) (to-array ["lolo"]))

11:46 clojurebot: "lolo"

11:46 mmarczyk: http://www.xent.com/pipermail/fork/Week-of-Mon-20070219/044101.html

11:46 ^ reminds me of this one

11:48 cemerick: mmarczyk: yours is a helluva lot stranger in the first 4 lines! :-P

11:48 AWizzArd: That works, but it is very inefficient.

11:50 mmarczyk: cemerick: yeah, it's fantastic :-)

11:50 rhickey: seriously though, I'm looking for appendable suffixes for either promoting or throwing ops

11:51 mmarczyk: maybe a sigil of some sort? +&, +: ?

11:51 qbg: What about %?

11:51 (For throwing ops)

11:52 mmarczyk: +_ for add which stays on the level it starts at...

11:52 qbg: (probably best as a prefix?)

11:53 Licenser: I think pre/suffixing both would be the worst to do, leave one as the default and the other as a suffix

11:53 mmarczyk: incidentally, what happens when the call goes through the Var?

11:53 rhickey: mmarczyk: which call?

11:54 mmarczyk: #'+ could be an unpleasant way of saying "slow down, mate"

11:54 rhickey: (#'+ 1 2)

11:54 rhickey: no, same semantics

11:54 mmarczyk: ah, I see

11:54 rhickey: not fast, but same operation, will throw on overflow or promote whatever wins as the default

11:55 Licenser: again what would be the extra effort to make things fast if we'd stay with promoting by default, I'm not entirely sure how the syntax had to look for that :(

11:55 mmarczyk: hm, I'm reading into the proposal more and more and sort of beginning to see the wisdom of the 'fast' side... not totally sold on it yet, but this goes to show the amount of trust Clojure's design has accumulated with me thus far -- I actually expect to be wrong when feeling uneasy :-)

11:56 Licenser: and at what level is it decided, argument level function level or return value level? or all of them

11:57 qbg: mmarczyk: Same here; I like the idea of the num branch, it just feels like I'm losing an old friend...

11:57 mmarczyk: qbg: fortunately the friend is a phoenix and his new plumage might be even more splendid :-)

11:57 Licenser: even I do like it I'm just not sure if it's worth it entirely and if there isn't a better way

11:58 mmarczyk: p+ / +p for "promoting +" ?

11:58 arkh: java interop question - this works '(.. (Thread. fnname) start)' but how do I do the equivalent of this (.. (Thread. fnname arg1) start) ?

11:58 Licenser: +^ ?

11:59 mmarczyk: ,(read-string "+^")

11:59 clojurebot: +

11:59 mmarczyk: Licenser: so no go...

11:59 Licenser: yuck why that?

11:59 cemerick: arkh: not entirely sure what you're trying to do, but perhaps (Thread. (partial fnname arg1)) will do.

11:59 mmarczyk: I guess the symbol ends before ^, which is not a symbol char

11:59 cemerick: arkh: you really want to be using a future or agent though...creating threads is usually unnecessary.

12:00 mmarczyk: arkh: (-> arg1 fnname Thread. .start) or sth?

12:00 Licenser: but I'd still like to see what the verbosity trade of of making a function fast would be when using promoting by default

12:00 mmarczyk: Licenser: me too, absolutely

12:01 arkh: cemerick: I was scolded for using agents and futures in ways they weren't meant to be used ; ) I have a function I want to kick off in another thread but don't care about it's return value

12:01 mmarczyk: ,(macroexpand '(-> arg1 fname Thread. .start))

12:01 clojurebot: (. (clojure.core/-> (clojure.core/-> arg1 fname) Thread.) start)

12:02 cemerick: arkh: I abuse futures for that :-)

12:02 mmarczyk: ah, won't work of course... try it with macroexpand-all (from contrib) maybe at your repl

12:02 Licenser: (doc send-off)

12:02 clojurebot: "([a f & args]); Dispatch a potentially blocking action to an agent. Returns the agent immediately. Subsequently, in a separate thread, the state of the agent will be set to the value of: (apply action-fn state-of-agent args)"

12:02 hoeck: arkh: (.start (Thread. #(fnname arg1 ... argn)))

12:02 rhickey: what about +' dec' *' ?

12:02 arkh: mmarczyk: looking into that ... otherwise I'll abuse futures

12:03 AWizzArd: Sounds like Ocaml...

12:03 Licenser: rhickey: that doesn't look bad

12:03 arkh: hoeck: I had tried that but thought it didn't work ... maybe it was my code : (

12:03 rhickey: AWizzArd: what does?

12:03 qbg: rhickey: That looks good

12:03 mmarczyk: rhickey: +' looks good to me

12:03 AWizzArd: Different operators that basically do the same thing on diferent types.

12:03 mmarczyk: rhickey: which variant would you use it for?

12:04 AWizzArd: But that seems to be the price for very fast execution.

12:04 * cemerick winces at (more) syntax expansion

12:04 Licenser: AWizzArd: it is not about doing different things but using some different logic for the same types

12:04 rhickey: cemerick: where's the syntax expansion?

12:04 hoeck: rhickey: please not, how should this be distinguished from a plus and a real quote?

12:05 cemerick: rhickey: ok, right, just another idiom

12:05 mmarczyk: rhickey: btw, there's no possibility of doing the equivalent of Haskell's (Num a) => a -> ..., is there...?

12:05 Licenser: a missing space?

12:05 rhickey: hoeck: no spaces

12:05 ' would be allowed as a constituent character

12:05 AWizzArd: maybe add/plus/mul/multiply

12:05 mmarczyk: hm, wait, that definitely needs rephrasing :-P

12:06 rhickey: 'fred's => fred's , on my machine

12:06 cemerick: Still, more otherwise-meaningless chars for core functionality.

12:06 Licenser: ,(type 'fred's)

12:06 clojurebot: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$type

12:06 rhickey: cemerick: it's not anything more than allowing those chars in names, not special, you can use it yourself

12:06 AWizzArd: ['fred's]

12:07 Licenser: wow is clojurebot slow today?

12:07 $eval 'fred's

12:07 sexpbot: => fred

12:07 AWizzArd: ,['fred's]

12:07 clojurebot: [fred s]

12:07 Licenser: or is it me that is slow

12:07 cemerick: rhickey: I get it. I guess I'd just rather have the language have a settled default than trying to satisfy all constituencies maximally.

12:08 mmarczyk: I'm used to ' -- "prime" -- signifying alternative semantics when used at top level...

12:08 rhickey: cemerick: there will be a default. These functions will still need to exist, and have names, and be easy to change code written in terms of the default into these names

12:08 Licenser: I think allowing ' is cool since you can do nice mathematical notation with that f f' f'' ...

12:09 hoeck: ' is such a ubiquitious character in lisp code

12:09 rhickey: mmarczyk: alternate semantics at top level in which lang?

12:09 mmarczyk: rhickey: Haskell, e.g. foldl'

12:09 rhickey: hoeck: not in non-macro clojure code

12:09 mmarczyk: which is strict, vs. the lazy foldl

12:09 AWizzArd: +2 *2

12:10 qbg: If +' was for throwing +, then + -> +' would be like assoc -> assoc! for transients

12:11 mmarczyk: ...which sort of brings us back to +!, which is a no-go only if ! is to be reserved for mutation

12:11 rhickey: cemerick: else, e.g. people will be catching the exception from + as part of normal program flow of control, or coercing to bigint possibly needlessly

12:11 hugod: is putting the alternate semantics in different namespaces a non-starter?

12:12 mmarczyk: the idea with suffixed names for one class of arithmetic ops leaves open the possibility of reversing the choice -- as with #^ vs. ^ -- possibly with an intermediate stage with a third set of names...

12:12 rhickey: hugod: I think so - what does this code do? (+ x y) ... change ns declaration ... and this: (+ x y) ?

12:12 mmarczyk: might be useful if "most frequent usage" turns out to be something different to whatever 1.2 will bet on

12:12 cemerick: rhickey: I'm butting out for now, I don't grok all the issues yet. The presence of multiple mathematical fns seems mildly frustrating on spec though, and "mere mortals" will absolutely flip.

12:12 Licenser: we could do a (promoting ) macro :P

12:13 * cemerick just elevated himself above 'mere mortals' :-/

12:13 Licenser: cemerick: ylou ment you promoted yourself above mere mortals?

12:13 cemerick: same thing?

12:13 qbg: Why wouldn't a fast macro work, rhickey?

12:13 mmarczyk: cemerick: that might be a reason to have suffixed functions for the elevated numeric crowd and not for those who aren't concerned :-)

12:14 rhickey: qbg: no

12:14 arkh: cemerick: I'm a mere mortal. You can use me as a litmus test ; )

12:14 rhickey: qbg: oh, why

12:14 liebke: rhickey: I cleaned up the numeric types in Incanter's tests, and argos with the prim branch seems happy (although the latest version of clojure.contrib.jmx seems to have a bad test). Let me know if you need me to fix anything else.

12:14 cemerick: arkh: *no one* in #clojure is a mere mortal, by definition

12:14 rhickey: qbg: because it is too contexty, and what does it mean?

12:14 liebke: what bad test, did you pull contrib?

12:14 arkh: cemerick: if that were only true! I won't delude myself :D

12:15 cemerick: The guy who needs to calculate interest and shove it back into a DB via hibernate is the one I'm thinking of.

12:15 Licenser: cemerick: depends on what * function you used the promoting one or the non promoting one, if you used the non promoting one you might get a Human Overflow Exception

12:15 rhickey: qbg: I don't want the compiler to have math modes, these are just ordinary function calls

12:15 hugod: rhickey: I think if you are writing code that you want to rely on one behaviour or the other, then being able to decide that at the namespace level, rather than checking every use of every operator, is a win

12:15 liebke: I did pull contrib. the test for jmx/guess-attribute-typename is calling (Long/valueOf 10) instead of (Long/valueOf "10")

12:17 Licenser: hugod: I'd say on function or expression level not on namespace level otherwise this will mean you'll get often 2 namespaces

12:17 rhickey: liebke: should be (Long/valueOf (long 10)), my bad

12:17 liebke: only tested with num

12:17 liebke: rhickey: ah cool

12:17 rhickey: where that works

12:17 Licenser: http://gist.github.com/442044 <- the second version, would that be what it would take to make a function fast in a otherwise promoting environment?

12:18 hugod: Licenser: get 2 namespaces?

12:18 qbg: rhickey: In my idea of a fast macro, code inside its lexical scope would have contagious primitive math, but fair enough

12:18 Licenser: hugod: yes one for functions that require promoting and one for functions that do not

12:18 * dnolen thinks fracturing Clojure numerics is a horrible idea. unification. set peoples expectations moving forward, and people just have to live with it.

12:19 dnolen: If people leave over lacking autopromotion of BigInt they weren't that invested anyway.

12:19 cemerick: dnolen: that's my intuition as well

12:19 mmarczyk: dnolen: you could turn that around, you know

12:20 "if people leave over having to write a lil' macro to add hints" etc.

12:20 rhickey: liebke: fixed

12:20 dnolen: mmarcyzk: not true, we're meeting in the middle

12:20 mmarczyk: dnolen: hopefully

12:20 dnolen: marczyk: BigInt folk are conceding a tiny amount of ground.

12:20 liebke: rhickey: great, I'm re-testing

12:20 mmarczyk: dnolen: the present discussion would be about where the middle is and how useful it is

12:20 hugod: Licenser: so you are worried about my-lib-promoting/some-fn vs my-lib-nonpromoting/some-fn?

12:20 Licenser: hugod: yap

12:21 dnolen: mmarczyk: while bring fast math people to the party.

12:21 Licenser: I would understand if you have a promoting-fn and a nonpromoting-fn

12:21 mmarczyk: dnolen: I wonder if that is the case.

12:21 Licenser: perhaps with a idomatic syntax

12:21 the same that +, -, * ... shoud use

12:22 dnolen: mmarczyk: I'm not going anywhere if this stuff doesn't make it in, but it does seem to me future work in pure Clojure suffers.

12:23 Licenser: dnolen: I think noone wants fast math to not be implemented, I think the discussion going on is which mode should be default and which one explict

12:23 dnolen: Licenser: no modes

12:24 mmarczyk: dnolen: so you'd rather there were no auto-promoting ops at all? whoever might conceivably bump into bigint space should stay on that side all the time?

12:24 Licenser: dnolen: with default mode I mean, what will happen without extra effort and what will happen only with extra effort

12:24 qbg: If one really wants to, they could in theory write a (promoting ...) macro if bigints all the time don't work for thme.

12:24 *them

12:25 hugod: Licenser: I wouldn't expect too many cases where a lib would provide promoting and non-promoting versions - and you could still qualify the symbols to provide promoting-fn and non-promoting-fn

12:25 Licenser: hugod: no but I can see many cases where some functions are promoting and others are not

12:25 dnolen: Licenser: the current system creates a lot of incidental complexity. modes just move it somewhere else.

12:26 mmarczyk: people working with BigInts are working with BigInts. people working with primitive math, working with primitive math. num works seems to address that just fine.

12:26 rhickey: +#, -#, dec# ? the # seems to dominate the op a bit

12:26 Licenser: dnolen: again you missunderstood me, with modes I mean, what is the behaviour you get 'for free' and what is the behavior you have to add some extra code

12:26 I don't mean modes as in switching

12:26 mmarczyk: dnolen: they (modes) might also make it smaller if instead of adding a pile of hints all over the place you can just pick your operators wisely

12:26 Licenser: rhickey: dominating isn't bad if the thing is important to notice and to know about

12:26 rhickey: Licenser: it is if you can;t see the algorithm through the #s

12:27 mmarczyk: rhickey: might conflict with # = autogensym

12:27 qbg: If integer literals could be either longs or bigints based on what is the right thing at the time (no suffixes needed), then the current approach in num could be nice

12:27 * rhickey likes +', dec' best so far

12:27 Licenser: rhickey: true

12:27 mmarczyk: though "no autogensyms for +" is of course an option

12:27 rhickey: agreed

12:27 rhickey: mmarczyk: yes, would have to work that out

12:27 * Licenser agrees there too

12:27 rhickey: mmarczyk: without special rules like that :)

12:28 mmarczyk: :-)

12:28 Chousuke: people'll look at ' and think it's a quote though

12:28 Licenser: I don't think if it s in the end

12:29 rhickey: Chousuke: really? - (+' (fib (dec' n)) (fib (-' n 2)))

12:29 Chousuke: I suppose it's just me.

12:29 Licenser: (+! (fib (dec! n)) (fib (-! n 2)))

12:29 Chousuke: and allowing ' in symbols would be nice anyway.

12:30 mmarczyk: (+_ (fib (dec_ n)) (fib (-_ n 2))) <- just testing... is this too ugly?

12:30 * dnolen could live with +', etc.

12:30 mmarczyk: but +' is nice

12:30 qbg: (%+ (fib (%dec n)) (fib (%- n 2)))

12:30 rhickey: or +`, -`, dec` etc

12:30 Licenser: % is guly it looks too much like #

12:30 mmarczyk: fits in with math practice etc.

12:30 Licenser: nah ` is to hard to type

12:30 it makes horrible things in german keyboards :(

12:30 rhickey: Licenser: ah

12:31 mmarczyk: %+ isn't bad to my eye

12:31 Licenser: it wants to do something to the next character

12:31 mmarczyk: I've wanted to write a -%> macro a couple of times, would be nice to see this work

12:31 Licenser: I wanted to write @-->--- functions

12:31 qbg: I'm just use to %primitive-function style from CL

12:32 mmarczyk: Licenser: ah, but you can do that already ;-)

12:32 Licenser: I know

12:32 I also wrote a <3 function

12:42 so where are we at

12:45 qbg: Long literals have been ruled out?

12:46 rhickey: stay tuned

12:47 qbg: num branch + long literals + fast bigints by default would be more than sufficient for me

13:43 mmarczyk: http://disclojure.org/ has some rather amusing entries this time round :-)

13:43 "Every time you mention Scala and Haskell in the same sentence, a Java developer thumbs through a Clojure book at Borders."

13:58 nickik: Whats the best way to go from here {:a 1 :b 2} to here {:a 1 :b 3}. Cant find the right function.

13:59 hoeck: ,(update-in {:a 1 :b 2} [:b] inc)

13:59 clojurebot: {:a 1, :b 3}

14:40 raek: I have made a patch that fixes the broken clojure.java.io/output-stream implementation for java.net.Socket...

14:40 http://github.com/raek/clojure/commit/797d2ff22cd8a52707d52efb6a680d5ee0a788f1

14:41 the bug was probably just a typo or something

14:41 what can I do with this now?

14:44 TeXnomancy: raek: you need to sign a contributor's agreement; see http://clojure.org/contributing

14:46 raek: done that today :)

14:46 but the mail takes some time

14:46 TeXnomancy: gotta wait then. =\

14:47 MrHus: MrHus: reak: http://github.com/guides/pull-requests you could try this.

14:47 TeXnomancy: you can create a ticket, but patches won't get applied till it's in.

14:47 MrHus: rich doesn't like pull requests.

14:48 MrHus: I can imagine when getting about a 1000 a day.

16:25 rhickey: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commit/c79d28775e06b196ae1426f6c1446d00b621d2e1

16:45 Licenser: rhickey: nice :)

16:48 I like the ' syntax

16:48 rhickey: Updated: https://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/b4-TTcvBSr3RAZeJe5aVNr/Enhanced_Primitive_Support

16:53 Licenser: rhickey: is there a branch that combines the changes described in the link?

16:53 rhickey: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commit/c79d28775e06b196ae1426f6c1446d00b621d2e1

16:53 Licenser: ah okay that one combines things :)

16:54 hoeck: Licenser_: now we can use v, v' and v'' in our big physics simulations :P

16:54 islon: is there a simplified sintatic sugar to (def #^{:private true} x 1} in clojure 1.2?

16:55 hoeck: and that trailing ' is not that bad

16:55 Licenser: hoeck: yay!

16:56 hoeck: islon: (def ^:private x 1)

16:56 dnolen: rhickey: nice! even looks like there a perf boost for primitive long arithmetic with those changes?

16:56 hoeck: islon: at least in that branch that rhickey just posted

16:56 rhickey: dnolen: everything is better

16:57 dnolen: rhickey: good stuff.

16:57 islon: thanks, i'll try

16:58 rhickey: dnolen: and if escape analysis ever arrives, it could get better still

16:58 for the casual cases

17:04 * _fogus_ in case anyone is interested http://fogus.me/static/preso/magnificent7/

17:08 Licenser: okay I feel stupid I fail to clone http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commit/c79d28775e06b196ae1426f6c1446d00b621d2e1 :(

17:09 dnolen: silly question since you seem to have managed, how did you fetch the right version of clojure? :(

17:09 hoeck: Licenser: its in the equal branch

17:10 Licenser: :D

17:10 hoeck: you are my hero!

17:11 * hoeck actually clicked through all branches to find the commit

17:11 hoeck: :/

17:11 Licenser: yuck

17:32 mmarczyk: rhickey: the new equal looks fantastic, hurray! :-)

17:38 * Licenser is just compiling it and contrib so he can play around and get nuts with it :P

17:45 mmarczyk: I'll be doing the same in a minute :-)

17:45 Licenser: I think there is a regression in the commit:

17:45 user=> ((fn [x] (*' x x)) 2)

17:45 java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to java.lang.Number (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)

17:46 mmarczyk: ouch, this would mean that *' x is read as * 'x

17:46 as it used to be

17:46 Licenser: yap it is

17:46 that is badish

17:47 user=> (macroexpand '(*' 1 1))

17:47 (* (quote 1) 1)

17:47 rhickey: Licenser: seems like you have a bad build, that's 4 here

17:47 Licenser: hmm

17:48 rhickey: Licenser: you building with ant?

17:48 Licenser: rhickey: yap I suck :P sorry

17:48 I forgot to checkout equal as branch

17:49 serp_: are there any working guides for how to use emacs with slime, swank and clojure?

17:52 tcrayford: I think there's a guide around for lein

17:52 which is what you should be using anyway

17:52 dnolen: serp_: some tips on assembla

17:53 lancepantz: serp_: yeah, assembla has a guide i believe

17:53 Licenser: ah now it works nice!

17:53 tcrayford: assembla's guide doesn't cover slime iirc

17:54 dnolen: tcrayford: it does

17:54 tcrayford: my bad then

17:54 serp_: http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Emacs <- this one?

17:55 alpheus: This worked for me: http://github.com/jochu/swank-clojure

17:55 dnolen: serp_: yup

17:56 serp_: I'll give it a try, thanks

18:01 mmarczyk: argh... anybody else having swank woes after moving to equal?

18:03 dnolen: mmarczyk: swank has a bug that prim triggers

18:03 mmarczyk: dnolen: oh bother :-(

18:03 dnolen: mmarczyk: swank-clojure HEAD is patched

18:03 mmarczyk: do you use lein?

18:03 mmarczyk: dnolen: I see, thanks, will pull now

18:03 not for setting up repls

18:04 but I normally use HEAD of swank, just haven't bothered pulling in a while now

18:07 also, (defn fact [n] (loop [n n r 1] (if (zero? n) 1 (recur (dec n) (* r n))))) throws on (fact 40) -- that's with *, not *'

18:07 KirinDave: [n n ?

18:07 mmarczyk: KirinDave: ?

18:08 Licenser: mmarczyk: not for me

18:08 I just tested that

18:08 could do (fact 42)

18:08 mmarczyk: Licenser: really? let me check again

18:08 KirinDave: mmarczyk: Why two n's?

18:08 Licenser: wait not exactly for that code

18:09 dnolen: KirinDave: he's playing around with the new numerics stuff

18:09 mmarczyk: KirinDave: left one is the local name, right one is the initial value (taken from the parameter to fact called n)

18:09 KirinDave: Ah

18:09 Licenser: you're right it trhows here too - very dod

18:10 mmarczyk: but I can't find where it comes from

18:10 mmarczyk: Licenser: I wonder if loop/recur needs to know ahead-of-time whether it's going to be dealing with primitives or objects

18:10 Licenser: hmmm

18:10 mmarczyk: that would be the case with a local variable in Java, right?

18:11 Licenser: mmarczyk: but oddly enoguh for the simple version of fact it works

18:11 SirNick: what's the best way to set the character encoding with Ring or Compojure?

18:11 mmarczyk: incidentally, (fact 40N) doesn't work here either

18:11 Licenser: well the simple version has the function call boundary

18:11 which might present an opportunity for boxing

18:11 rhickey: mmarczyk: that's a broken definition, always returns one

18:12 Licenser: $((fn fact [n] (loop [n n r 1] (if (zero? n) 1 (recur (dec n) (* r n))))) 42)

18:12 mmarczyk: rhickey: ah, the middle 1 should be r

18:12 Licenser: ,((fn fact [n] (loop [n n r 1] (if (zero? n) 1 (recur (dec n) (* r n))))) 42)

18:12 clojurebot: 1

18:12 rhickey: the throw is because you have a primitive accumulator r

18:12 Licenser: yuck

18:12 that's bad

18:12 mmarczyk: rhickey: the 'old' arithmetic had no problem with it, but I suppose the r would have been a big-I Integer initially, right?

18:13 rhickey: mmarczyk: no, was boxed, now primitive

18:13 turn on *warn-on-reflection*

18:13 mmarczyk: that's what I meant, I think

18:13 rhickey: "recur arg for primitive local: r must be matching primitive, had: java.lang.Number, needed: long"

18:13 mmarczyk: boxed on master, primitive on equal

18:14 right

18:14 rhickey: you can get boxed accumulator by doing (num 1)

18:14 mmarczyk: just tried hinting with ^Object which doesn't work...

18:14 briancarper: SirNick: On responses? Add a header to the response, {:headers {"Content-Type" "text/html;charset=UTF-8"}}

18:14 Licenser: hmm hmm is there a way to make it just work?

18:15 rhickey: (defn fact [n] (loop [n n r (num 1)] (if (zero? n) r (recur (dec n) (* r n)))))

18:15 SirNick: briancarper: Can I set that up to be default?

18:15 mmarczyk: rhickey: ah, great, thanks!

18:15 Licenser: I wonder why * does not work correctly BigInt * int should become a bigint shouldn't it?

18:16 briancarper: SirNick: Yeah, wrap all of your routes with middleware that adds the headers. I think that's the standard way to do it.

18:16 mmarczyk: not sure if I prefer primitive as default, but I can see myself being perfectly happy with (num ...)

18:17 Licenser: Do I have to go back to my rant about how confusing this will be to newcomers?

18:17 SirNick: briancarper: Alright, so how do I handle requests? Or will that work by default by setting the response encoding?

18:17 Licenser: I mean even mmarczyk was confused

18:18 and why does (* 1 1000000000000000000N) work but not in the loop?

18:18 ah because r grows too big?

18:18 mmarczyk: yeah

18:19 thanks for your highly flattering use of 'even'

18:19 Licenser: the problem is not that * overflows but that the loop call gets confused with gettinga BigInteger Number

18:19 mmarczyk: don't take it personal I was about to write even I was confused but I figured that my usual arrogance won't help my case to get this changed :P

18:20 ;)

18:20 mmarczyk: :-)

18:20 briancarper: SirNick: Honestly not sure how it's handled in requests. I've never done anything special to set anything up.

18:21 mmarczyk: briancarper: I've been meaning to ask -- how's your RPG project coming along?

18:21 Licenser: is there any way in the world that the compiler can 'know' what we mean?

18:21 I mean the 1 part, when we mean a primitive and when we mean no primitive?

18:21 mmarczyk: Licenser: we can tell it :-)

18:21 briancarper: SirNick: One other potential place to set enoding is in the JVM opts, -Dfile.encoding=UTF8

18:22 Licenser: mmarczyk: yes but I opt again for 'it just works' as opposed to 'it works fasts if it does and throws odd and totally confusing exceptions if it does not'

18:22 mmarczyk: Licenser: apparently Rich has reversed the current situation with loop/recur... you need to hint to get boxing

18:22 Licenser: ava.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Value out of range for long: 158905670470170624000 does not exactly tell you 'you were using primitves you ape' but rather 'OMFG YOU'RE GOING TO DIE'

18:23 this is kind of a chrossorad and we need to decide which path to follow and I really hope we concider this very very carefully

18:24 briancarper: mmarczyk: My RPG has been on hold until Clojure 1.2 is released, I was too distracted porting a bunch of other code. But I plan to pick it up again very soon.

18:24 mmarczyk: briancarper: cool, I really enjoyed that post and the pixel art is cute :-)

18:24 Licenser: mmarczyk: for all bindings it seems

18:24 let does the same

18:25 okay now a very crazy suggestion how about adding let' and loop'?

18:25 I know I get shot for this sugestion but it would be, as crazy as it is, a logical way to go

18:25 Chousuke: nooooooooo

18:25 Licenser: whenever we have non NumberStack behavior we have a ' at the end

18:25 tomoj: bang

18:26 briancarper: mmarczyk: Thanks :)

18:26 Licenser: how about '' a quote that does primitves?

18:26 but seriousely this is evil, it will confuse the hell out of everyone but 5 people

18:27 well 7 since rhickey just told mmarczyk and me

18:27 we could make loop create overloaded jump points for different kinds of objects? longs and Numbers?

18:28 not sure if that is technically possible

18:28 mmarczyk: Licenser: ...3 of whom are the three-headed dragon who is a thousand years old and lately amuses him/herself by writing Clojure instead of casting spells

18:28 Licenser: well wizard spells get boring after you memorized all 9th level ones you know?

18:28 mmarczyk: Licenser: exactly! :-)

18:28 Licenser: and the other two are rhickey and his shadow I guess

18:29 mmarczyk: (whew, safer waters again ;-))

18:29 defn: hey all

18:32 Licenser: hi defn

18:32 join the fun of talking about clojure math

18:33 dnolen: mmm, colocated Mac Mini 4gb RAM running 1.2 equals branch makes a sweet 2010 64bit Lisp Machine

18:34 mmarczyk: Licenser: rhickey: took the liberty of posting about the primitive-by-default loop locals to the ggroup thread

18:34 defn: hi :-)

18:35 Licenser: mmarczyk: oi, as I did

18:35 but I added 5 lines speach to it :P

18:35 mmarczyk: Licenser: aye, just noticed :-)

18:35 Licenser: but you were a minute faster :P

18:35 I think rhickey wil hate us soon

18:36 SirNick: briancarper: Alright I'll see how that goes, thanks for the help

18:43 AWizzArd: rhickey: would it be possible to add some more branches to build.clojure.org?

19:06 mmarczyk: http://gist.github.com/444341

19:07 ^ how come the first (non-static, non-hinted) version seems to be faster than the second (static, hinted) version?

19:09 Licenser: mmarczyk: found another problem, floats

19:10 mmarczyk: Licenser: oh? how come?

19:10 Licenser: http://gist.github.com/444344

19:10 primitives don't change from one type to another :P

19:12 mmarczyk: oh, that looks buggish

19:13 Licenser: mmarczyk: it makes sense in the way it is implemented but it is horrible

19:13 mmarczyk: yeah, I guess I mean bug-inducing (or sth close)

19:14 Licenser: *nods*

19:15 mmarczyk: actually in this case the compiler could conceivably discover that the primitive participates in an arithmetic op with a floating-point literal as the other argument

19:15 although if the flonum came from another parameter to the function or a closed-over Var, that wouldn't help

19:17 rhickey: any chance of having a (num ...) hint, a (prim ...) hint (boxed vs. unboxed) and defaulting to prim in loop when the compiler can prove that that's alright (because of type hints on the enclosing function's parameters etc., say) and boxed otherwise?

19:19 (the etc. encompasses hints on the return type, :tag metadata on Vars participating in arithmetic ops inside the loop's body and whatever else I didn't think of)

19:25 riddochc: I'm curious, what's an appropriate use for the 'reductions' function? I'm sure it *is* useful, but aside from debugging the use of 'reduce', I'm not sure what sorts of problems I'd apply it to.

19:26 tcrayford: "ls ~/Projects/clojure | wc -l" => 24

19:26 * tcrayford thinks I have too many projects

19:27 riddochc: tcrayford: It's in the ballpark of my count, too... are you any better at finishing yours than I am? (wouldn't be too hard)

19:29 mmarczyk: riddochc: for one thing, reductions is lazy

19:30 (take 5 (reductions + (range)))

19:30 tcrayford: riddochc: I don't think *any* of those are anything like finished

19:31 riddochc: mmarczyk: I suppose reduce can't be lazy, by definition.

19:32 tcrayford: man lazytest is hella cool

19:32 mmarczyk: riddochc: Clojure's reduce is a left fold, so it can't be usefully lazy

19:32 riddochc: a right fold can be lazy in a lazier language (see Haskell) -- then it can work with infinite sequences

19:33 Raynes: Right folding in Haskell is insane.

19:33 Insane, I say. Insane.

19:34 mmarczyk: actually I suppose Clojure might be lazy enough to do some of the lazy foldr stuff, with a little extra effort expended here and there perhaps

19:34 Raynes: :-)

19:34 tcrayford: its funny how many core functions in haskell can be described usefully using fold and foldr

19:35 Raynes: I've done so much with foldr that I looked for it for a day straight in Clojure until I realized that reduce was the closest thing I could get.

19:35 AWizzArd: tcrayford: why do you find it funny/surprising?

19:35 mmarczyk: Raynes: got a good example of an interesting function using scanl? I can't think of one and I know I've seen some... would answer the question about reductions

19:35 Raynes: That was ages ago.

19:35 AWizzArd: reduce = fold

19:35 Raynes: I've never used scanl. I don't even know what it is.

19:35 AWizzArd: I know.

19:35 mmarczyk: AWizzArd: reduce = left fold

19:35 tcrayford: AWizzard: just a nice example of how powerful reduce is

19:35 Raynes: But not a right fold.

19:35 Licenser: well night people

19:35 AWizzArd: And reduce is the most basic looping construct.

19:36 map and filter are special cases

19:36 Licenser: mmarczyk: keep the fight up! ;)

19:36 mmarczyk: Licenser: good night

19:36 Licenser: heh :-)

19:36 AWizzArd: it would be as saying that you find it funny that for-loops are of such big use in C programs

19:36 Raynes: Night Heinzy.

19:36 Licenser: Night Raynes

19:36 tcrayford: I find reduce somewhat annoying to figure out still

19:36 mmarczyk: Licenser: I know you'll be back here with a flaming sword soon enough :-)

19:36 AWizzArd: tcrayford: what about for-loops in Java?

19:37 Licenser: mmarczyk: I'm not here tomorrow so you'll have to take the lead for the day

19:37 tcrayford: for loops in java are painful as well :(

19:37 too verbose

19:37 AWizzArd: ah ok

19:37 mmarczyk: Licenser: I'm no replacement for you, but I'll stay vigilant ;-)

19:37 Licenser: we should stop looping of every kind and just write iteratively

19:37 AWizzArd: Well, just think of reduce (or fold) as a very general looping construct

19:37 Licenser: heh

19:37 yea few people can be as annoing as I am :P

19:38 mmarczyk: tcrayford: www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~gmh/fold.ps

19:38 tcrayford: mmarczyk: already read, and translated into clojure

19:39 mmarczyk: Licenser: 'passionate' is not really 'annoying' :-)

19:39 AWizzArd: foldr you can get from (reduce f (rseq coll))

19:40 mmarczyk: tcrayford: well I guess that's mostly on foldr... foldl is equivalent for associative ops though

19:40 tcrayford: yeah, its interesting stuff

19:40 mmarczyk: AWizzArd: not really, that wouldn't work with infinite seqs, say

19:40 AWizzArd: what is the "right side" or last element of an infinite seq?

19:41 mmarczyk: AWizzArd: that's irrelevant to foldr

19:41 AWizzArd: the definition is

19:41 foldr f v xs = f (head xs) (foldr f v (rest xs))

19:42 foldr f v [] = v, of course

19:42 so if f can return something useful based on (head xs) alone without caring too much about (foldr f v (rest xs))

19:42 AWizzArd: Do you have a practical example for such a case?

19:42 mmarczyk: you've got a result, even though xs might be an infinite sequence (in Haskell, most likely a list)

19:43 map ?

19:44 AWizzArd: maybe I am confused, but why does this definition of foldr take (head xs)?

19:44 should it not be (last xs)?

19:44 mmarczyk: AWizzArd: nope

19:45 AWizzArd: so, what does the r then mean?

19:45 riddochc: It's about the order of function application.

19:45 AWizzArd: when it goes from the left side through xs’s right side?

19:45 mmarczyk: AWizzArd: if you expand this for an example list of xs, the parens will be in all the right places

19:45 * riddochc checks some notes...

19:45 mmarczyk: AWizzArd: (f x1 (f x2 (f x3 v)))

19:46 AWizzArd: vs?

19:46 clojurebot: use vs require is (:use [lib :only [a b c]) or (:require [lib :as alias]) -- (:use lib) is only for playing around

19:46 mmarczyk: AWizzArd: as opposed to (f (f (f v x1) x2) x3) for a left fold

19:47 AWizzArd: ah ok

19:48 riddochc: So, I think I had some scheme... (defun foldr (step zero x) (if (null x) zero (step (car x) (foldr step zero (cdr x)))

19:48 Er, define. Sorry.

19:49 And (define foldl (step zero x) (if (null x) zero (foldl step (step zero (car x)) (cdr x))))

19:49 rbarraud: ,

19:49 clojurebot: EOF while reading

19:51 riddochc: Oh, now this is interesting. I hadn't run across it before: http://hyperpolyglot.wikidot.com/lisp

19:51 mmarczyk: AWizzArd: as for the map via foldr, map f xs = foldr (\x v -> (f x):v) [] xs

19:51 AWizzArd: yes

19:54 mmarczyk: riddochc: keywords are a PLT Scheme thing, though, r5rs doesn't have them

19:55 riddochc: plus this doesn't make clear the difference between the various vector literals

19:55 a nice list nonetheless, thanks for the link

19:55 briancarper: That site seems to have a lot of inaccuracies in the Clojure column. Defines "atom" as (not (list? x))

19:56 mmarczyk: briancarper: hm, indeed

19:56 actually, I'd be hard pressed to come up with a useful definition of atom in Clojure

19:56 riddochc: Yeah, I was noticing their "not possible" thing for "making a standalone executable" in clojure.

19:57 mmarczyk: I think there's "seqable?" is contrib

19:57 ^in... I wonder if it covers all the cases

19:59 riddochc: I thought there was some JIT stuff for java that'll actually make a standalone executable, unless I'm mistaken. I've never used it.

19:59 briancarper: mmarczyk: It couldn't cover all cases, could it? You can define your own seqable things by implementing the right interfaces.

19:59 mmarczyk: briancarper: there's instance? for that

19:59 briancarper: Ah, right.

19:59 Yeah, I just looked at the implementation of seqable?, it's not pretty.

20:00 mmarczyk: but then you have to decide if Enumerations and Iterators are seqable?

20:00 I guess enumeration-seq and iterator-seq don't count

20:00 so probably they're not

20:00 then again, because of e.-seq and i.-seq, they're not "atomic" in the traditional sense...

20:01 riddochc: I can't remember wanting to test for "atomness".

20:01 briancarper: Me neither, I'm happy to leave it undefined.

20:02 mmarczyk: me neither, and in fact the only way I might lose sleep over this is due to a purely academic desire to come up with an appropriate test :-P

20:02 go away!, go away! (the purely academic desire, I mean)

20:14 navandres: hi

20:15 I'm a dummy and I have a question for you

20:15 can I ask?

20:17 DarthShrine: navandres: Go ahead

20:17 navandres: I'm trying to make a simple recursive function

20:17 and something is wrong

20:17 (defn sumatory [n] (+ (sumatory (dec n)) n) )

20:18 mmarczyk: navandres: you need a terminating condition

20:18 navandres: It suppose to sum from n to 0

20:18 yes

20:18 I try this also

20:18 without luck

20:19 let me check that again

20:19 mmarczyk: navandres: a terminating condition as in (if (zero? n) (return-something) (+ ...recursive call happens here...))

20:20 navandres: mmm

20:20 mmarczyk: or use (defn s [n] (/ (* n (inc n)) 2)) :-)

20:20 navandres: I was trying that

20:20 (defn sumatory [n] (if (== n 0) 0) (+ (sumatory (dec n)) n) )

20:20 that is wrong?

20:20 mmarczyk: wrong paren placement

20:21 (if (zero? n) 0 ...no paren here... (+ ...)...)

20:21 where the final ...) means "close all parens"

20:21 navandres: ok

20:22 I'm a little confuse

20:22 but I will try that

20:22 thanks

20:22 mmarczyk: np

20:27 tomoj: recursion :(

20:28 navandres: have no luck

20:29 (defn s [n] (/ (* n (inc n)) 2))

20:30 with this function

20:30 s 5

20:30 What should I expect ?

20:30 tomoj: ,(+ 1 2 3 4 5)

20:30 clojurebot: 15

20:31 mmarczyk: ,((fn [n] (/ (* n (inc n)) 2)) 5)

20:31 clojurebot: 15

20:31 navandres: mmm

20:31 I'm getting this

20:31 #<user$s__4 user$s__4@739e8329>

20:31 5

20:31 tomoj: are you actually typing "s 5" to call it?

20:31 mmarczyk: ((fn sum-down-to-zero [n] (if (zero? n) 0 (+ n (sum-down-to-zero (dec n))))) 5)

20:32 navandres: yes

20:32 mmarczyk: ,((fn sum-down-to-zero [n] (if (zero? n) 0 (+ n (sum-down-to-zero (dec n))))) 5)

20:32 clojurebot: 15

20:32 navandres: :(

20:32 tomoj: type (s 5) instead

20:32 mmarczyk: incidentally, the latter idea is not efficient at all

20:32 navandres: ohhhh

20:32 I'm soooooo silly

20:32 mmarczyk: loop/recur would be ok... but that's besides the point, I guess

20:33 navandres: thanks

20:33 (s 5)

20:33 works

20:35 mmarczyk: ^beside :-/

20:35 navandres: all those definitions works now

20:35 thanks

20:36 is there a way of executing clojure that can load a file also

20:37 because I'm have to do the load-file every time

20:44 vIkSiT: hmm, what would be the best way of reading a file till EOF in some code like this : http://paste.lisp.org/display/111521 ?

20:47 mmarczyk: vIkSiT: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2961493/treating-a-file-of-java-floats-as-a-lazy-clojure-sequence/2963984#2963984

20:47 (some code by cgrand which does what you want, I think)

20:47 vIkSiT: mmarczyk, ooh good pointer, thanks

20:48 mmarczyk: navandres: using load-file is very unusual

20:48 navandres: maybe have a look at http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started

20:49 navandres: hehe

20:49 yes

20:49 I know

20:49 thank you

20:50 I have to install the eclipse plugin

21:37 rhickey: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/c8c850595c91cc11

21:56 qbg: If you have to ask for bigints, asking for a non-primitive in recur fits

21:56 rhickey: qbg: right, that mismatch was a remnant, it will match the default

21:59 AWizzArd: in my Clojure version when I have a (loop [x (long 1)] (recur (* x 0.5))) I get ==> java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: recur arg for primitive local: x must be matching primitive

22:00 That's a good solution too.

22:01 vIkSiT: hmm, whats a good way to serialize a protocol?

22:02 rhickey: AWizzArd: it isn't because there are plenty of times where the recur args is an object that could init the loop local just fine (loop [x 1] ... (recur (:foo bar)) - if (:foo bar) is an integer (even in a box) that will be fast and correct

22:02 qbg: vIkSiT: Why do you want to serialize a protocol?

22:02 vIkSiT: erk. I meant a *record*

22:02 ok stepping back a bit.

22:03 I've got a record that contains a list/vector/map of other records.

22:03 AWizzArd: rhickey: if the compiler can not prove that (:foo bar) returns a long it could warn, and so one could (recur (long (:foo bar))

22:03 vIkSiT: And I'd like to be able to serialize and store it on disk

22:03 qbg, ^ ..

22:03 AWizzArd: but another solution could be that x in [x 1] is a number

22:04 a general one, bigint

22:04 (num 1)

22:04 it would be confusing if (+ 1 0.1) ==> 1.1 but inside a loop then ==> 1

22:07 rhickey: AWizzArd: anf then you learn that loop locals take on the type of their initializer, and you are doing floating point so use a floating point init

22:08 AWizzArd: This may not be discovered always, people forget it, don't write test, don't use Coverage tools, etc.

22:09 rhickey: AWizzArd: And I should orient Clojure for those people?

22:09 AWizzArd: In my opinion the two best solutions would be: 1) using fast primitives but then also static type checking which will emit warnings or erros during compilation when type correctness can't be proven, or 2) having the boxed numbers as default where no errors could sneak in

22:10 rhickey: AWizzArd: static type checking is not going to happen any time soon

22:10 AWizzArd: Well, it is just more complex rule, if (+ 1 0.1) ==> 1.1 outside of loops, but inside loops just 1.

22:10 remleduff: My problem with making the loop initializer so magical is java interop. You basically would never feel save initializing a loop variable with an interop form unless you make sure to double-check every time what type the java code returns.

22:11 rhickey: but it could go back to being an error, causing more work for some correct code

22:11 AWizzArd: an error or at least warning would be nice imo

22:11 (recur (+ x 0.1)) ==> warning

22:12 (recur (my-static-add-that-returns-longs x 0.1)) ==> fine

22:12 I don't know if + is the version that returns long or +'

22:13 rhickey: AWizzArd: It's the same rule:

22:13 (defrecord Foo [^long x])

22:13 (:x (Foo. 4.2)) => 4

22:13 AWizzArd: When I explicitly specified long I expect that.

22:13 rhickey: AWizzArd: it prints warning right now on any mismatch

22:14 AWizzArd: warnings/errors are fine, I will be informed as early as possible, which is a good thing

22:14 rhickey: user=> (defn foo [] (loop [x 42] (recur 4.2)))

22:14 NO_SOURCE_FILE:2 recur arg for primitive local: x is not matching primitive, had: double, needed: long

22:14 #'user/foo

22:15 AWizzArd: yes, this is good behaviour

22:16 I just remember that in the equal branch that Licenser tested some hours ago we discovered that for (defn foo [n] (loop [n n r 1] (if (zero? n) r (recur (dec n) (* r 0.2))))) (foo 3) ==> 0 without that warning

22:17 in my (1+ month old) Clojure it returns 0.008

22:18 but when I specified r (long 1) then I got this useful warning

22:41 rhickey: AWizzArd: yes, the warnings used to go on with *warn-on-reflection*, now always on

22:44 remleduff: Is it a technical limitation that makes statics unable to be closures?

22:45 rhickey: remleduff: where would their closed-overs go?

22:49 remleduff: Oh, I was picturing them sitting there in the same generated Fn class and using the same closed-overs, but they wouldn't be accessible to static method. :)

22:53 I was wondering why all functions couldn't be implemented in terms of a var wrapping a static method call and then use VirtualMachine.html#redefineClasses to allow dynamicism.

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