#clojure log - Jun 07 2010

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0:00 rava: ty

0:01 trptcolin: sure

0:38 _brian2_: hi, is there a way to convert a string, say "{:foo "bar"}" to its clojure form?

0:39 tomoj: ,(doc read-string)

0:39 clojurebot: "([s]); Reads one object from the string s"

0:39 _brian2_: ok, thnks!

1:39 jartur: Hello, everyone. I have another thrilling question.

1:39 Does anybody know of a way to connect REPL to the running app?

1:39 Is there a way at all?

1:49 Looks like No =)

1:51 Okay

1:51 clojure.contrib.server-socket should be it

2:00 It's so easy, I feel embarrassed. But google didn't want to show me the way.

4:27 LauJensen: Morning all

4:39 robink: LauJensen: Good morning.

4:43 TheBusby: morning

4:46 _exterm: morning

5:03 LauJensen: There's still a few seats left for the next Conj Labs (http://conj-labs.eu) so let me know if you're interested

5:13 * lypanov would love to go but a) would have to convince his boss, b) is on holiday then.

5:23 esj: Morning Good People.

5:35 LauJensen: lypanov: Where there's a will there's a way

5:35 :)

5:36 lpetit: Morning all

5:36 LauJensen: Morning Mr. Petit

5:37 esj: wotcha.

5:37 lpetit: counterclockwise users in the room ?

5:42 apparently no ... :-(

5:45 esj: lpetit: I used it briefly but the lack of paredit drove me back to the dark god Emacs.

5:48 zmila: lpetit, me :) as usual

5:49 lpetit: esj: the force is with counterclockwise nowadays = 80% of paredit has been ported to it!

5:50 esj: It's called "Structural Editing Mode" (because paredit means nothing to eclipse users), and comes in two flavors: "default" (does not get in your way, e.g. does not prevent you from deleting single open or close paren), and "advanced mode" (my preferred) which tries hard (as paredit does) to prevent you from breaking the structure of your code

5:50 zmila: ! :)

5:50 zmila: did you update to the last version ?

5:50 esj: lpetit: Great news! I'll give it a spin then :)

5:51 zmila: i have 57.stable

5:52 lpetit: zmila: if you're a windows user and are annoyed by the bug on windows concerning "cannot delete file" .., I encourage you to upgrade to 58.stable and give feedback !

5:54 zmila: lpetit, i did not see this bug

5:54 till now I deleted no clj file :) only adding

5:55 lpetit: zmila: bug occured when you launch the REPL, and while the REPL is running, you edit and save clojure files

5:56 LauJensen: Im very fond of Emacs, especially with par-edit disabled

5:57 lpetit: LauJensen: ccw paredit tries to be more user friendly in the "default" mode

5:59 LauJensen: But its like training wheels - Its a habit you need to grow out of

6:00 How have you improved it lpetit ?

6:02 lpetit: LauJensen: separated the features which "surprise you". e.g. when you try to delete a paren, intentionally wanting to temporarily break the structure of your code, but paredit doesn't let you do so, "for your own good". In default mode, this command is not active.

6:03 LauJensen: and there's a note in the status bar indicating if you're in the default mode or in the status mode. And jumping from one to the other can be made by keyboard shortcut, entry in the contextual menu of the editor, or by clicking on the message on the status bar.

6:04 LauJensen: stopped working on porting paredit features yet. Working on improving the overall perf.

6:04 LauJensen: Ah ok, especially the 'non babysitter feature' is nice

6:05 lypanov: LauJensen: if you have another session at a later date i'll have better luck :)

6:05 esj: LauJensen: i like my babysitter, she's cute

6:05 very curvy

6:07 LauJensen: lypanov: We are working on some, still Europe but perhaps a little different in scope :)

6:09 lypanov: hopefully our company will grow a bit and i'll be able to join. at this point i'm still 100% on forging ahead full speed. no time for clojure :(

6:09 stuck in RoR land. (though its not that bad with v 3)

6:10 LauJensen: lypanov: I've never dug into RoR - Can you recommend any projects for scouting out the basics?

6:11 lypanov: LauJensen: ror 2 stinks frankly. but there are a few good presentations on 3 by the lead. not sure about canonical good projects alas.

6:12 ror 3 is still not out, so not much yet available on it alas. :(

6:12 its the first version that doesn't make we want to weep though.

6:13 LauJensen: if i spot a talk that doesn't assume existing ror 2 knowledge will pass it along. can't find anything with a very quick google.

6:14 anyone know how clojure in clojure is coming along?

6:14 LauJensen: k

6:14 lypanov: no idea, cgrand might have a clue

6:14 lypanov: i'd still love to replace jquery + js with lots of clojure code.

6:15 LauJensen: lypanov: via scripjure, clojurescript, what?

6:17 lypanov: LauJensen: via clojure itself. currently doesn't exist.

6:18 i like the gwt model of single language for server / client.

6:18 having the same for clojure would make web app devel so much more fun.

6:19 LauJensen: basically i'd want aot js compilation

6:20 LauJensen: k

6:33 lypanov: does anyone have any opinions / knowledge on good visually orientated code editors much like the self environment but a bit more modern?

6:34 being the complete apple ho that i am, i'd just love to hack out clojure on an ipad.

6:34 LauJensen: haha

6:34 lypanov: (html5, touch, no app store)

6:34 LauJensen: I would like to shake your hand sir, you're the first I've ever met who wants an Ipad

6:35 "Uuuh I wish my Iphone was too big for my pocket and that I was unable to make calls from it"

6:35 Or that my websites looked like this: http://bradcolbow.com/archive/view/the_brads_test_how_your_site_looks_on_the_ipad/

6:35 lypanov: LauJensen: i was in a room last week with 5 of them.. and this was in .nl. freaky.

6:35 * lypanov wants but does not yet have

6:36 unfo-: LauJensen, ahahahhaha :D

6:36 lypanov: LauJensen: it looks terrible at an angle, but straight on, i can't see the smudges.

6:36 (nor the light, but i'm used to reflective screens now also)

6:37 LauJensen: seriously, Steve must be laughing his butt off that people are actually buying his products - I wish I could be paid to have so much fun

6:37 lypanov: you have a mac right?

6:37 LauJensen: No - I've gotten rid of all of my Mac gear

6:37 lypanov: ah. ;)

6:38 honestly, i understand where you're coming from. i just wish that someone else would have products worth buying.

6:38 (not talking about laptops here)

6:38 LauJensen: hmm, actually ipad did win one comparison, I wasnt aware before now

6:38 http://techcrunch.com/2010/01/30/ipad-v-a-rock/

6:38 lypanov: :P that ones great.

6:39 ah, saw a better one. this ones silly.

6:39 the other one said "battery: unlimited"

6:39 eevar2: apple's releasing new stuff today, no?

6:39 lypanov: eevar2: yeah but not h/w.

6:39 well, other than iphone.

6:39 anyway. as i said, i'm an apple ho.

6:39 i verily admit to insanity.

6:39 LauJensen: I wish I could get my hands on the prototype: http://img.hexus.net/v2/news/apple/ipad-joke-1.jpg

6:40 lypanov: LauJensen: have you used one?

6:40 LauJensen: No of course not

6:40 lypanov: k.

6:40 LauJensen: Do I look like an iTard? :)

6:41 lypanov: you used to be, did you grow a beard recently? :)

6:41 * lypanov grew a beard when he installed linux but has since shaved

6:41 LauJensen: hehe

6:41 lypanov: anyway. i regret my mention of apple ho.

6:41 LauJensen: Why, did I hurt your feelings?

6:42 lypanov: should i say "OMG I WANT A CLOJURE APP ON MAH ANDROID PAD :("

6:42 LauJensen: naah, just that it got off topic.

6:42 LauJensen: Ok :)

6:42 lypanov: i was more interested in actual movement on touch interfaces for programming.

6:42 i think they could really kick ass.

6:42 syntax free langs are the only ones that its possible with.

6:43 LauJensen: Well, in terms of development, anything from Apple is truely uninteresting

6:43 lypanov: *nod* but i'm talking about a website.

6:43 and the ipad is the only readily available large multi touch device atm.

6:43 but lets say something else does come out, and i'm talking about that.

6:43 lets call it the LauPad

6:44 i still think that visual touch orientated development is a progression that would afford many things we currently can't do easily without a fair bit of interaction.

6:44 eevar2: the iphone store is supposedly a lot better than android et al. in terms of making actual sales

6:45 lypanov: yeah. but as i said, i want a clojure dev env.

6:45 LauJensen: eevar2: Due to the large user base no doubt

6:45 lypanov: i'm not interested in selling it. nor in native apps.

6:45 apple would block any app i wrote anyway.

6:45 eevar2: LauJensen: and willingness to pay

6:46 lypanov: i won't touch a non open sourced editor again in a few life times, and wouldn't want to force it upon others either.

6:46 imagine where textmate could have been by now if it was open.

6:47 * lypanov aiming this at eevar2 assuming he's a mac user, not at LauJensen who he knows would rather not touch textmate

6:47 lypanov: anyway. i'll go off and look for some papers. someone must have done something interesting in the area.

6:48 eevar2: LauJensen: then again, the people telling me android users won't buy stuff are into add based revenue ;)

6:48 lypanov: ad based < closed source < open source

6:48 nothing is worse.

6:48 eevar2: lypanov: and gpl < mit/bsd

6:49 lypanov: yup.

6:49 well, for applications sometimes i disagree.

6:49 but plugins must always be bsd/mit and libs also.

6:50 even agpl is nice. i just wouldn't ever want to be the consumer of it ;)

6:50 i'm gonna disappear as #clojure hasn't been more offtopic in a while :P

7:41 rhickey: anyone with examples of Java APIs that require your class have a particularly named static method?

7:43 telmich: hello

7:44 LauJensen: hi telmich

7:47 karmazilla: rhickey: in spring, you can instantiate beans by specifying a static factory method

7:48 rhickey: karmazilla: must it have a particular name?

7:48 karmazilla: rhickey: no

7:49 rhickey: I'm interested in the case where an API says, you must have a static method called "___"

7:51 esj: clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection calls for equiv. Any pointers on what this is and how it differs from Object.equals ?

7:54 powr-toc: I've just update slime to 20100404 (from elpa) and tab completion has stopped working in the REPL buffer... It just says "No dynamic expansion found for user> foo"

7:54 any idea how to fix it?

7:56 telmich: I'm wondering, how to get the zip-reader running

7:57 I'm trying to get this file running http://github.com/panter/edu/blob/master/clojure/imdb/src/imdb/movies_by_years.clj and installed clojure via lein

7:58 when removing the comment and having downloaded the required files before, I get the error "java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: zip-reader in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:50)"

7:59 where lein is downloaded from http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/raw/stable/bin/lein

8:44 rhickey: cemerick: got any examples of Java APIs that require your class have a particularly named static method?

8:46 cemerick: hrm

8:48 rhickey: cemerick: you were suggesting injecting a static method with a particular name might interfere with interop requirements

8:49 cemerick: oh, I was just saying that if you also want to allow the definition of static factory fns, then you'd want to push any automatically-generated statics into some "safe" mangled territory, e.g. Foo/_record, Foo/_ctor, etc.

8:50 rhickey: cemerick: so they have to be then wrapped in order to not be ugly?

8:51 cemerick: rhickey: we're still in the context of the map factory fn?

8:51 rhickey: yes

8:53 cemerick: no, the "wrapping" would be there so as to present a consistent interface, and get out of the territory of Foo-from, etc.

8:54 The static factory fn that happens to be a static method is an impl detail.

8:56 rhickey: cemerick: unless you have a recipe for avoiding ongoing non-modular accumulation in (record ::Foo ...), it's definitely on the ropes

8:56 its not an implementation detail, it's an implementation impediment

8:57 cemerick: I missed what the modularity issue is. (record Foo ...) just becomes a macro to (Foo/_record ...), no?

8:58 rhickey: if macro, can't be applied

8:58 cemerick: ah, right

8:58 rhickey: can't be used in data-driven manner

8:58 cemerick: well, that's separate from this modularity issue

8:59 rhickey: not really, if you didn't care about apply or data-driven use the macro wouldn't have modularity issues

9:01 cemerick: back in a sec

9:51 rhickey: from left field: perhaps the most sensible thing would be to determine how factory fns should work in general, and then figure out how these various default/standard factory fns fit into that.

9:54 rhickey: cemerick: I have pages of notes around this already, just trying to shake out the (record Foo ...) option. If I thought it was the nicest thing ever but couldn't implement well, it won't go in

9:55 conceptually, they are very simple - they are functions that call the ctor, but take arguments that differ from the ctor's

9:56 cemerick: rhickey: I understand, but stepping back, those "userland" factory fns presumably wouldn't fit into the (record Foo ...) regime, and they wouldn't fit into a Foo-from option either. The key is not in the implementation, but in the UI, as it were.

9:57 rhickey: cemerick: what do you mean by userland?

9:57 cemerick: factory fns for which the impl is user-defined, as opposed to canned / provided by default

9:58 rhickey: cemerick: having the generated either target or be replaced by user code is easy

9:58 cemerick: couldn't parse that :-)

9:59 rhickey: it is easy to make the canned/provided version either target or be replaced by the user-impl

9:59 cemerick: ah

10:00 sure

10:00 what I'm driving at is that these canned factory fns should probably be handled just like those userland factories -- in terms of where the vars live (if any) where the static methods are (if any), etc.

10:05 hugod: rhickey: could the data-driven use be covered by (record (some form) ...) expanding to (invoke-factory-using-reflection (some form) ...)? or am I misunderstanding "data-driven"?

10:05 rhickey: hugod: there will be no reflection based things

10:06 so data driven implies some sort of self registration by the record into some sort of dispatcher

10:08 chouser: to be modular, that implies the registration is held at the classloader? which suggests a static method of the class itself?

10:08 hugod: to prevent modularity issues, each namespace could maintain some registration data for the dispatcher?

10:09 rhickey: chouser: I'm not sure modular and dispatcher are compatible at all

10:09 a_strange_guy: just a stupid question: What was the original reason to switch from 'Foo as a fn living in a Var to 'Foo beeing a auto-imported java classname?

10:09 cemerick: a_strange_guy: only java.lang.* stuff is auto-imported.

10:10 rhickey: cemerick: no, defrecord Foo imports Foo

10:10 chouser: is modularity a general problem for multimethods dispatching on type?

10:10 cemerick: oh, didn't think a_strange_guy's Q was related to records, my bad :-/

10:11 rhickey: a_strange_guy: because deftype started generating named classes, so too confusing to have user.Foo and user/Foo

10:11 chouser: yes

10:12 chouser: but not inherent, as with factories, who's fn itself refers to the type

10:13 cemerick: back to basics, perhaps. Strawman time: https://gist.github.com/a455d0afd7478092b141

10:13 * chouser starts imagining namespaces arranged in a tree that mirrors the classloader tree, an multimethod dispatch that walks the tree to find all dispatch maps.

10:13 cemerick: apply is nice, but direct usage is probably 90% of the game, and is needed for the interop story anyways.

10:14 rhickey: cemerick: ick

10:14 a_strange_guy: bleh, dont like static factories

10:15 cemerick: rhickey: interesting, I thought that's what you were aiming for for user-defined factories anyway.

10:15 rhickey: a_strange_guy: vs what?

10:16 a_strange_guy: static factories and constructors mean that I have to re-eval not only the defrcord form but all it's users

10:16 else they keep producing the old version of the record

10:17 cemerick: without static factories *and* ctors, I think you're left with vanilla maps. :-)

10:17 rhickey: well, the dynamism is an important point, and a difference between (record Foo ...) and (record ::Foo ...)

10:18 you can always build dynamic things on static, but not vice-versa

10:18 so, I understand a_strange_guy's point

10:19 a_strange_guy: well i really don't think that static things are needed at all

10:19 except maybe for Interop

10:19 rhickey: a_strange_guy: what about performance?

10:20 a_strange_guy: is there one?

10:20 rhickey: a_strange_guy: one what?

10:20 a_strange_guy: calling a fn wrapping the ctor or calling the ctor directly?

10:21 rhickey: a_strange_guy: a perf difference? yes

10:22 a_strange_guy: meh, I put too much hope into the JIT ^^

10:23 rhickey: the JIT is awesome, but saying something is dynamic makes it volatile, which inhibits inlining

10:27 a_strange_guy: and what about direct binding?

10:28 rhickey: a_strange_guy: avoids that by taking the value out of the var, remembering it, and thus making it non-dynamic

10:29 a_strange_guy: this would be IMHO preferrable

10:29 making the default record construction dynamic

10:29 rhickey: a_strange_guy: same result, must re-eval

10:30 a_strange_guy: sure, but only where we have perf bottlenecks

10:31 making the default static seems like premature optimization

10:32 rhickey: a_strange_guy: I don't se what you mean by default. The dynamic must be built upon the static

10:32 if you don't want to call the ctor, don't

10:32 if it didn't exist, then what?

10:33 a_strange_guy: the way i understand the JIT is:

10:34 static -> full inlining

10:34 wrapper fn in a var -> no inlining

10:35 wrapper fn in a var + directly bound at callsite -> full inlining?

10:35 rhickey: only if there is something static to inline to

10:36 a_strange_guy: the wrapper fn would call the native ctor

10:36 rhickey: defrecord now provides an accessible named ctor. Don't use it if you want dynamism

10:36 a_strange_guy: I understand all this, sheesh

10:37 the class exists, it has the name you gave it, the constructor has the same name. These are baseline facts. You want a function, you can write one that calls these things. You want one generated by defrecord, propose a name

10:39 a_strange_guy: looking at the IRC logs i don't think that i could provide a better name

10:40 rhickey: not auto-importing the class and commandeering its name for the factory fn would preclude importing it

10:41 a_strange_guy: LISP-1: you only have one namespace, so use it wisely xD

10:42 Twey: Haha

10:43 a_strange_guy: my proposal would be to return to Foo beeing a fn in a var, but having metadata on the var to find the correct class

10:43 and some magic for extend and type-hints

10:44 but I don't think that this is thought throgh till the end

10:45 my english sucks :-)

10:49 that would mean that (Foo "some" "args") calls the fn dynamically,

10:49 cemerick: a_strange_guy: we've been there already

10:50 a_strange_guy: hmm

10:50 cemerick: that is, that's what records started with

10:50 Joreji: Hey guys, I have a java app from which I start a new thread which itself loads a clojure class. Is there some way to set the COMPILE_PATH variable before the class is being loaded (i.e. from the java code with something like Var.pushThreadBindings)

10:51 ?

10:51 cemerick: Joreji: why do you care about *compile-path* if you've already got a classfile?

10:52 a_strange_guy: jeah, i just liked that simplicity

10:54 cemerick: The current state is strictly simpler than if Foo were a fn. Now you have easy access to the generated class, and using it is just like using any other class.

10:55 rhickey: admittedly hosty and less dynamic

10:55 cgrand: on Foo/record and apply, what about not making Foo/record a static method but a static field pointing to a IFn? (this would require modifying the compiler to support calling a fn in a static field)

10:55 Joreji: cemerick: Well, I want other classes to be compiled before loading the class. Basically during start-up of clojure.

10:56 a_strange_guy: cgrand: there ist still a problem with redefining the defrecord

10:56 Joreji: I've modified clojure to do that, however I need a way to set the COMPILE_PATH to something different before the clojure start-up.

10:56 cemerick: a_strange_guy: the same "problem" exists with macros. *shrug*

10:56 rhickey: cgrand: it complicates the semantics of (Foo/bar ...) quite a bit

10:56 cemerick: Joreji: do you need to compile a class, or *load* a class?

10:57 Joreji: cemerick: compile.

10:57 cemerick: Joreji: this is in a deployment environment?

10:57 Joreji: cemerick: ... and then load, I guess.

10:57 cemerick: It's on android.

10:58 Not sure what you mean by deployment environment.

10:58 cemerick: Joreji: then I'm really confused -- don't you need to AOT-compile everything you want to get onto the device?

10:58 a_strange_guy: rhickey: is making Foo a fn in a var again completely out of question?

10:59 rhickey: cemerick: I've made that argument also (same re-eval as macros), but people expect otherwise. I feel we are approaching a real divide between people needing perf and those desiring dynamism at all times

10:59 Joreji: cemerick: No. Android has its own compiler for the dalvik vm which compiles java vm bytecode code to dalvik vm bytecode. I can thus do: .clj (clojure source) -> .class (compiled java) -> .dex (compiled dalvik)

10:59 bartj: reading russian data present in a mysql table and spewing it to the output, all I get is garbage

11:00 cemerick: Joreji: right, I understand that, but doesn't that workflow need to happen before the app is loaded onto the device?

11:00 rhickey: cemerick: putting a good knob/swithc on that is tricky

11:00 bartj: using clojure.contribl.sql -> does that take an encoding parameter?

11:01 Joreji: cemerick: Not really. All required components are available on the device, so it is possible to do it there.

11:01 cemerick: rhickey: I'm not particularly sympathetic to those that push for hardcore dynamism. That makes a lot of stuff really hard across the board, it seems (and again, you're tied up with macros anyway).

11:01 bartj: nope, none of the clojure.contrib.sql takes any encoding parameters?

11:01 a_strange_guy: it's more a divide between "perf as default and dynamism when needed" and "dynamic as default and perf when needed"

11:02 cemerick: Joreji: Interesting. Well, anyway, yes, you can use pushThreadBindings from Java. Grep the clojure source for how to do that. :-)

11:02 (not a very common requirement)

11:03 rhickey: if people have to annotate every thing explicitly in order to be fast, then fast programs will be very ugly (see CL)

11:03 Joreji: cemerick: Hmm. I've already tried using: Var.pushThreadBindings(RT.map(Compiler.COMPILE_PATH, path));

11:03 cemerick: Alas that didn't work, so I expected it to require clojure already being initialized.

11:04 cemerick: a_strange_guy: perf must be the default. No one puts up with slow anything for very long.

11:04 Joreji: well, yes, clojure must be fully initialized for that to work, I'd presume.

11:04 Although just referencing RT should do that.

11:04 candera: cemerick: Rubyists might say otherwise

11:05 cemerick: candera: exactly! :-P

11:05 a_strange_guy: cemerick: The reverse argument is also true

11:05 candera: :)

11:05 a_strange_guy: The python and ruby people rewrite stuff in C to make it fast

11:05 Joreji: cemerick: As in: import clojure.lang.RT ?

11:06 cemerick: a_strange_guy: no, it's not. You can always layer on dynamism if you really need it, as rhickey has said. You can't make a heavily-dynamic system as fast it it would be if it were static, no matter how hard you try.

11:06 candera: "Make easy things easy and hard things possible"

11:06 cemerick: Joreji: Probably on first reference (i.e. RT.map will init the class, not the import)

11:07 though I suppose dalvik might be different in subtle ways

11:07 Twey: Python doesn't any more so much… you've got Cython and RPython and stuff instead

11:07 a_strange_guy: ^

11:09 hugod: Joreji: *compile-path* is initialised from the clojure.compile.path property - is that what you want?

11:10 a_strange_guy: cemerick: sure you cant make a dynamic system as fast as a static one, but that is a straw man. The goal is to provide the knobs to make a dynamic system more static, so that it can become as fast as a static system

11:12 and adding dynamic layers on a static system isn't always a good idea

11:12 cemerick: a_strange_guy: I'll refer to rhickey's comment about CL. Further, defaults matter a lot. You should not have to work harder to get a system that performs to its fullest. Advanced users that want über-dynamism can be expected to jump through a few hoops though.

11:13 Besides, are you looking for macros to operate at runtime? If not, then referring to defrecord ctors aren't a problem either.

11:13 fogus: candera: I think that the Ruby guys have made a conscious decision to trade speed in execution for speed in development time.

11:14 a_strange_guy: there is a big difference between macros and static ctors

11:14 macros do stuff that can't be done at call time, only at compile time

11:14 Joreji: hugod: I'll try that out now, thanks for pointing it out!

11:15 Twey: fogus: False dichtomy

11:15 fogus: In doing so, they throw away the chance to do both

11:15 candera: fogus: Yep. My point was simply to counter cemerick's statement, as it's dependent on what you're doing. I'm actually happy to have a language that defaults more in the perf direction.

11:15 cemerick: a_strange_guy: the point is that if the macro definition changes (or if a defrecord class changes) you need to reload all your usages in order to get the new behaviour/classes.

11:17 fogus: Twey: It's only a false dichotomy if you think Ruby can be fast. ;-)

11:17 Twey: Haha.

11:17 It probably can, though. Haskell manages to be pretty fast, after all, and it's much higher-level than Ruby.

11:17 candera: Wasn't someone in here the other day claiming that JRuby was going to get faster than Clojure "pretty easily"?

11:17 fogus: Twey: But my point was not that severe. I think speed in development time is just as legitimate as speed of execution... thankfully Clojure allows both.

11:17 Twey: Aye

11:17 a_strange_guy: I just don't accept the "macros and ctors are similar cases" argument

11:18 normally your code isn't littered with macros everywhere

11:18 cemerick: heh

11:18 Chousuke: well

11:18 not with macros that YOU wrote :P

11:18 cemerick: I was going to say. :-)

11:19 a_strange_guy: having many defrecords in a namespace is realistic

11:19 cemerick: The whole point of them is that they *are* classes with fields, permitting host-esque performance. There's a tradeoff there compared to regular maps.

11:20 a_strange_guy: yeah

11:20 but you can't use regular maps instead

11:20 because they don't allow protocols

11:20 cemerick: right, because regular maps can only be dispatched dynamically

11:20 that's what multimethods are for

11:21 a_strange_guy: Protocols are dispatched dynamically too...

11:21 cemerick: no, they're dispatched based on the static type of the first argument

11:22 a_strange_guy: s/dynamic type/static type/

11:22 sexpbot: Protocols are dispatched dynamically too...

11:24 lypanov: fogus: heya. just wondering if manning has said anything about epub editions of the clojure book? i only read on my iphone and it hates pdf's :(

11:24 * lypanov asked them already but got no response

11:24 fogus: lypanov: I think epub will be available when the book is finally published.

11:24 a_strange_guy: IMHO you shouldn't be punished to reloading your code if you wan't to do explorative programming with defrecords

11:24 candera: lypanov: I've been reading on iPod as well. It's not an awesome experience, no. But GoodReader's text mode does reasonably well with it.

11:25 lypanov: fogus: :( *nod* thought so.

11:25 fogus: lypanov: Sorry.

11:25 cemerick: a_strange_guy: punished?

11:25 lypanov: candera: it seemed to really mess up the text i was reading. example code was seriously messed up for example.

11:25 maybe i should try latest stanza.

11:26 candera: lypanov: Yeah, I have to flip back over to the regular view for code.

11:26 lypanov: fogus: not your issue. just hope they change the way they publish meaps in the future.

11:26 a_strange_guy: cemerick: I fix a typo in a defrecord form

11:26 lypanov: if the dang ipad was here already i'd be reading :)

11:26 candera: lypanov: +1 on both

11:27 a_strange_guy: but have to reeval every defn where the type gets created

11:27 cemerick: a_strange_guy: again, same situation as with macros. Again, defrecord and its kin generate a class.

11:27 lypanov: candera: i even wrote a new app to do it. but the width of the content is just slightly too high to fit in landscape even with pixel tweaking.

11:27 candera: (pdf reader with page turn via swipe)

11:28 great for papers though. but i'd prefer an ipad or higher res iphone to most content on the iphone currently.

11:28 candera: lypanov: PDF on iPhone is definitely suboptimal. iPad would be perfect if a) I could fold it up to fit in my pocket, and b) someone other than Apple made it. :)

11:28 a_strange_guy: cemerick: most macros just wrap some forms in a thunk, and expand to a call to a fn

11:29 so you can actually fix most macros by just fixing the underliing fn

11:29 cemerick: some are like that yes -- many, many others are now

11:29 not*

11:30 lypanov: candera: yeah... god the m$ thing looked beautiful.

11:30 a_strange_guy: I don't want to get in an argument here, but most people try to make macros fixable at runtime

11:30 cemerick: a_strange_guy: FWIW, absolutely no one here is against dynamic development. I think the consensus is that we'll accept a dent in dynamism for maximal perf, though.

11:31 There's massive classes of macros that exist to do work at compile time rather than runtime. That's not a hit on them, that's their entire purpose.

11:33 a_strange_guy: what I am trying to say is that static constructors are a big pain in the ass in Javaland

11:34 cemerick: heh, along with all manner of other things! :-D

11:34 a_strange_guy: they try to work around that stuff with all the DI bullshit

11:34 cemerick: indeed

11:34 a_strange_guy: so why import static constructors fom Java

11:34 cemerick: Because we want to be fast.

11:35 a_strange_guy: xD

11:36 cemerick: There's lots to hate in the JVM world. Lots more to love IMO. One of the biggest parts to love is that the JVM is smokin' fast. If you didn't want to take advantage of that, then there's far, far less of a reason to use the JVM.

11:36 a_strange_guy: nobody stops you fom writing (new namespace.Foo <args>) if perf is needed

11:36 cemerick: Same with the CLR, BTW.

11:37 Sure, but defaults matter. You line everyone up, and they'll care about perf far, far, far more than development-time dynamism.

11:37 a_strange_guy: actually 'new could do some magic and allow (new Foo <args>)

11:37 cemerick: Again, macros present the same issues.

11:37 Oy.

11:38 magic == indirection

11:38 a_strange_guy: indirection == bad?

11:39 actually this would seem logical

11:39 cemerick: I remember when I suggested (a long time ago) to rhickey that some conditional be added to new. I got taken to school. :-D

11:40 indirection has a perf penalty

11:40 Twey: (= 'indirection 'abstraction)

11:40 cemerick: The language should not get in people's way.

11:40 a_strange_guy: 'new is a special form that allows fast and hosty object creation

11:40 Twey: And abstraction is good

11:40 cemerick: Twey: actually, that's not true. Macros are a good abstraction, but need not introduce any indirection.

11:41 Twey: cemerick: Macros are indirection by definition

11:41 They introduce an extra layer between the code you write and what actually happens

11:41 cemerick: only at compile time :-)

11:41 candera: "There is no problem in CS that cannot be solved by adding a layer of indirection. There is no problem in performance engineering that cannot be solved by removing one."

11:41 a_strange_guy: new could do this 'magic' at compiletime

11:41 Twey: candera: Hehe

11:42 a_strange_guy: if the first form is not a class but a Var

11:42 Twey: In some cases, abstraction can lead to better performance

11:42 Good abstractions add semantic information to operations, which allows the compiler to make optimisations based on it

11:42 Also, see lazy evaluation

11:43 a_strange_guy: ill sketch my idea up...

11:44 cemerick: a_strange_guy: so you're going to propose radically changing one of the core host interop operators?

11:45 a_strange_guy: there is no change, 'new still performs fast, hosty and direct object creation

11:46 cemerick: a_strange_guy: in any case, my hat's off to you. Good luck. :-)

11:46 * cemerick isn't being sarcastic, just in case that came off that way. Damn irc.

11:50 a_strange_guy: no offence taken

11:54 hugod: cgrand: to run the enlive tests, I had to add clojure-contrib as a dev-dependency in project.clj

11:55 cemerick: contrib isn't a direct dep anyway?

11:55 hugod: feh, nm, I thought we were in #pallet :-P

11:56 cgrand: hugod: thanks, I should update the tests to use clojure.test too

11:58 rhickey: poll: if you had to qualify a defn with some metadata tag in order for it to have these characteristics: direct-linked, could take/return primitives, non-closure, no self-reference as object/HOF (self-call ok), what tag would you use?

11:58 :static?

11:58 :fast?

11:59 AWizzArd: :static is okay, and it will remind people of static typing

11:59 cgrand: :static

12:00 a_strange_guy: :static

12:01 rhickey: note that you could still use the resulting fn as a HOF/IFn

12:01 a_strange_guy: although i wouldn't use defn to define it

12:01 AWizzArd: I would be glad about any optional information that is known at compile time.

12:02 candera: I've always thought static was a horrible keyword. The semantics for those of us who have been doing C-family programming for 20 years are right, but in and of itself I think there must be something better.

12:03 cgrand: rhickey: is that an asnwer to my kludgy defhintedfn?

12:03 rhickey: cgrand: perhaps, I'm measuring the difficulty now. But it covers a lot of things, including the 'knobs' for direct-linking, etc

12:03 hiredman: :metal

12:04 hugod: :native

12:04 candera: :bare?

12:05 a_strange_guy: I would like :native, but that would confuse Java-people

12:06 so :static or :statically-linked-and-really-fast-do-not-use-if-not-needed xD

12:06 Twey: Haha

12:06 AWizzArd: Well, I think this is all about static information, that won't change at runtime, and are known at compile time.

12:07 rhickey: also static as in the opposite of dynamic

12:07 AWizzArd: As long this is optional it's great.

12:07 rhickey: it would be an important difference in direct linking, moving the decision to the fn definition and away from the caller. Not that you have control over that right now, that's the current architecture

12:09 a_strange_guy: meh...

12:09 rhickey: cgrand: I've had statics and defstatic on the todo list for a while, this would unify several things and deliver in the context of fns.

12:09 AWizzArd: Whatever the key is, be it :static or whatever, what is the value? Just a true/false? Or a record of information?

12:09 rhickey: true

12:10 AWizzArd: ah ok

12:10 Well, in that case :fast is also fine.

12:11 rhickey: :fast was a joke

12:11 cgrand: I guess that most of core fns would be marked as :static then and the special-case for direct-binding removed

12:11 rhickey: cgrand: exactly

12:13 since primitive args/return would only be supported for :statics, using them without saying :static could either: A) be an error, B) be implicitly :static true

12:13 lpetit: rhickey: what would happen if someone tries to rebind such a var ?

12:14 rhickey: lpetit: nothing. you might do this as part of fixing code interactively, with the caveat that you must re-eval any consumer code to see the effect, just like with macros

12:14 AWizzArd: A) ==> the compiler should signal an error

12:16 lpetit: rhickey: new semantic (direct linking, non closure, no self reference apart from itself) => new "public API" keyword ? that is why not :static as the metadata , but the preferred usage be via e.g. defstatic / defnstatic ?

12:17 s/keyword/command/

12:17 sexpbot: rhickey: new semantic (direct linking, non closure, no self reference apart from itself) => new "public API" command ? that is why not :static as the metadata , but the preferred usage be via e.g. defstatic / defnstatic ?

12:17 a_strange_guy: lpetit: agreed

12:17 rhickey: lpetit: I'm not quite sure I understand

12:18 a_strange_guy: defn shouldn't hve a semantic change

12:18 if you see that a corefn is defined with defstaticfn or similar

12:18 rhickey: I'm sure people will get tired of (defn {:static true} foo ...) just like with :private

12:19 lpetit: rhickey: yes, defn having a semantic change seems odd to me. Maybe internally (or for power users), why not have the :static keyword metadata, but for "normal" users, having defstatic will *clearly* prompt in their mind that they are dealing with a new kind of definition

12:20 rhickey: this looks more like a new kind of definition than a variant to me

12:20 rhickey: :private was ok, a variant with a different scope. But once you have the var in your hands, everything happens like usual.

12:21 a_strange_guy: rhickey: do you plan to compile this down to static methods?

12:22 rhickey: lpetit: well, we're back to layering. It is a variant, and I'm not opposed to a defsomethingshort, but lots of things yield defns, and metadata flows...

12:22 a_strange_guy: I'm not planning anything yet

12:24 lpetit: lpetit: just like defmacro is a defn with a :macro true metadata, but nobody in current code writes it with anyhting but defmacro, I would see defstatic, with still (as for defmacro) the :static metadata keyword. Oh this would be really consistent: defmacro / :macro , defstatic / :static

12:25 rhickey: lpetit: but defmacro could turn into something completely different tomorrow

12:25 the fact that a macro is a fn is an implementation detail

12:26 lpetit: rhickey: wouldn't it be the same for defstatic ?

12:26 rhickey: No, the things inside defstatic vars would be guaranteed to be IFns

12:26 lpetit: rhickey: with some constraints at definition time, but not visible to the caller

12:27 rhickey: but the need to reeval user code if the definition changes ...

12:27 rhickey: right, and some linkage directives

12:27 higher-order usage would go through the var, as would (#'my-static-fn ...)

12:33 lpetit: rhickey: higher-order function via the var would then "loose" the "no boxing" property ?

12:33 rhickey: lpetit: right

12:38 lpetit: does somebody know if there is a version of try-clojure.org which works with 1.2.0 snapshot ?

13:14 LauJensen: (clojure-version)

13:14 ,(clojure-version)

13:14 clojurebot: "1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT"

13:24 bartj: reading this string - "Детские сады, детские центры, дошкольное образование, прогимназии, ясл" from a MySQl database prints jibberish in Java

13:24 I am using the clojure.contribl.sql library

13:25 does one have to decode UTF-8 strings while displaying on the console?

13:25 what I see is this - "Абразивные инструмент оптом

13:25 "

13:26 mefesto_: bartj: can you read the value in the database by some other means to make sure it was inserted w/out error?

13:26 bartj: mefesto: yes, I am able to do so in Perl

13:27 with no charset supplied...

13:32 mefesto_: bartj: have you tried manually specifying the character encoding in the jdbc url connect string?

13:33 bartj: mefesto_: no, I will look in the documentation right now...

13:40 mefesto_: yes, retried specifying the encoding as follows - "useUnicode=true&characterEncoding=utf8"

13:40 mefesto_: does not work as expected...

13:40 mefesto_: bartj: and you are sure that the server itself is using utf8 too?

13:41 bartj: mefesto_: er, you mean the mysql server?

13:41 mefesto_: yeah

13:41 bartj: mefesto_: yes

13:42 bartj: "CHARSET=utf8" is specified while creating the mysql tables

13:43 mefesto_: I am able to read the db values from a Perl program....

13:44 mefesto_: bartj: yeah, i was just thinking that maybe for some reason connector/j wasn't able to auto detect the correct encoding but perl was...

13:45 bartj: mefesto_: which should not be the problem, since we have specified the encoding in the URL string?

13:45 mefesto_: bartj: yeah

13:53 tcrayford: is printing it out the problem?

13:54 iirc slime/swank might not work that well with utf8 (it works, but needs some configuration set up_

13:54 bartj: tcrayford: no, because, I am able to print it out in Perl?

13:54 tcrayford: when you display the string in the repl I mean

13:54 chouser: good question. Since the String should be unicode-aware, it would be helpful to know if it made it correctly into the String or not.

13:54 bartj: This URL quite nicely explains what the problem is - http://linux.kieser.net/java_pg_unicode.html

13:54 though the problem and the solution both are for PostgreSQL

13:55 tcrayford: that's somewhat nasty :/

13:55 chouser: bartj: maybe check the length of the string to see if it is right or not?

13:56 candera: You should be able to write it to a file and view it, no? That will bypass display-related issues.

13:57 chouser: if the length is right, the problem is in printing the string. If the string is too large, the problem is getting it from the db into the string.

13:57 bartj: no, writing to a file doesn't help

13:58 tcrayford: you refer to the URL I pasted?

13:58 candera: Meaning I'm wrong and that doesn't tell you anything, or you tried writing it to a file and it's still garbage in the file?

13:58 tcrayford: bartj: yes

13:59 bartj: candera: I tried writing to a file and it's still garbage

13:59 candera: Are you sure the editor you used to view it knows what the encoding of the file is?

13:59 e.g is there a BOM at the beginning

13:59 chouser: that doesn't prove much, if the thing writing the file or the thing reading the file chooses the wrong encoding.

13:59 bartj: candera: BOM?

14:00 candera: Byte Order Mark. Seen often when serializing XML. A couple of bytes that help readers of the file detect the encoding.

14:00 chouser: I'd check the length of the string while it's still in java, no IO having been done since reading from the db connection.

14:01 candera: bartj: are you on Windows?

14:02 bartj: candera: No, Linux - Ubuntu

14:02 regarding the string length, doing a length(column) on mysql gives a value of 261

14:03 candera: Ah. I don't know the editor landscape there. On Windows at least, some editors fail to deal with encoding and some get it right.

14:03 bartj: and doing a .length() after reading it from the Db in Java gives a 42

14:03 chouser: whoa

14:03 bartj: I mean 52

14:03 chouser: so there's definitely something broken there. too short? maybe it's tripping over a null or something.

14:03 bartj: candera: It displays quite nicely when I output it on the bash command line using a Perl progam

14:03 chouser: not a display issue

14:04 bartj: candera: so, I am pretty certain it is not a display issue

14:04 candera: Yeah, if the length is goofed up, that's not it.

14:04 Sorry for the red herring.

14:05 chouser: bartj: you don't have a .getBytes() method you can try instead of .getString() or seomthing?

14:06 bartj: you've seen this page? http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/connector-j-reference-charsets.html

14:08 bartj: chouser: yes

14:08 I suspect the problem is that I am encoding characters twice!

14:09 but decoding the db output (in Java) does not seem to solve it... :(

14:09 chouser: not if it's already too short

14:10 bartj: chouser: I am not sure if the comparision I did is apt?

14:11 chouser: the column is a string in the db, not bytes or something else?

14:11 if so, then length(col) should be your gold standard.

14:12 Java strings can contain nulls and such without the .length() method failing, so whatever chars make it into the string will be counted.

14:13 the question being then the format of the data sent by the server to the jdbc driver, and then how the driver interprets that to create the Java string. Surely those are the only two places left to mess it up.

14:15 bartj: the string length of this is - "Детские сады, детские центры, дошкольное образование, прогимназии, ясли": 71

14:15 chouser: I see nothing but blanks and commas between those quotes. :-)

14:16 bartj: chouser: ha

14:16 chouser: but we're not trying to solve my IRC client's unicode problems, so that's ok.

14:18 neotyk: ,(count "сады")

14:18 clojurebot: 4

14:20 neotyk: ,(.length "сады")

14:20 clojurebot: 4

14:20 KirinDave: well played, java

14:20 neotyk: bartj: what's the problem?

14:21 I had quite some problems with PL encoding while ago

14:22 bartj: neotyk: I am unable to display unicode strings (russian for now) from mysql database

14:22 neotyk: what is your connection string? do you set client encoding (jdbc driver)?

14:24 bartj: jdbc:mysql://localhost/db?useUnicode=true&characterEncoding=UTF-8

14:24 neotyk: yes

14:25 the string size is 71, but when I read it from the mysql database it shrinks

14:26 neotyk: and you see those characters in mysql client

14:26 bartj: , (count "Детские сады, детские центры, дошкольное образование, прогимназии, ясли")

14:26 clojurebot: 71

14:26 bartj: yes, absolutely

14:30 mozinator: hi guys, fetching clojure from leiningen doesnt seem to work anymore for me, anyone else noticed this ? [WARNING] repository metadata for: 'snapshot org.clojure:clojure:1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT' could not be retrieved from repository: clojure due to an error: Error transferring file

14:32 lancepantz:

14:32 chouser: mozinator: Can you fetch it from build.clojure.org instead?

14:34 mozinator: chouser, I can download it from here: http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/org/clojure/clojure/1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT/

14:34 chouser, maybe its the same error I encountered in the past on debian linux, a missing java keystore

14:35 ysph: mozinator: i am able to fetch with [org.clojure/clojure "1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT"]

14:36 mozinator: strange.... openjdk works, but sunjdk does not work on debian linux

14:36 zakwilson: Ahh... a channel that isn't full of Apple stuff.

14:36 Should I be using 1.1 or 1.2 for my personal project?

14:36 chouser: 1.2

14:36 zakwilson: No hesitation there. Alright, I'll switch over.

14:36 ysph: mozinator: what version of sunjdk?

14:37 chouser: :-)

14:37 mozinator: sun-java6-jdk 6.20-dlj-1

14:37 ysph: 1.6.0_12-b04 here

14:37 the new oracle vms are known to reject previously valid signatures

14:37 zakwilson: What's the appropriate contrib version to go with that?

14:37 ysph: may or may not be a factor

14:38 mozinator: ysph, I am going to check if I can reproduce the problem with a manually downloaded jvm

14:38 chouser: zakwilson: latest snapshots of each should be ok

14:41 mozinator: ok, I can reproduce the problem with a manualy downloaded JVM from oracle

14:41 ysph, I think your theory is right

14:44 * technomancy rubs his hands together gleefully

14:45 LauJensen: Im wondering what happens under the hood when I do (drop 150000 (read-lines "log"))

14:46 contrib.io.read-lines

14:48 ysph: LauJensen: how far under the hood?

14:48 mozinator: it seems plausible, our Eclipse RCP build stopped working after a routine upgrade to 6.20 because of rejected certs

14:49 LauJensen: ysph: Far enough to see how wasteful it is

14:49 kotarak: LauJensen: it opens a reader on log

14:50 LauJensen: kotarak: Sure, but what goes on with the 15000 lines?

14:50 chouser: technomancy: ?

14:50 kotarak: LauJensen: they are obviously read when you call seq on it

14:50 technomancy: chouser: we have a game at work where every time we run into issues with Oracle's JVM, I get a point, but whenever there's a problem with OpenJDK, they get a point.

14:50 chouser: so far we are tied.

14:50 chouser: heh

14:51 ysph: technomancy: this latest round might put you over the top

14:51 technomancy: ysph: it does sound pretty wretched

14:51 zakwilson: After upgrading to Clojure and contrib 1.2, I cannot connect to Swank on a remote machine. I don't think I changed anything else.

14:52 LauJensen: kotarak: So drop doesn't have any tricks for lazy-seqs where it moves the line-pointer instead of actually consuming each dropped line

14:52 ?

14:52 chouser: zakwilson: oh, man, I'm sorry -- I should have qualified my recommendation. I don't use swank, and it often lags a bit. I dunno if 1.2 works properly there yet or not.

14:52 kotarak: LauJensen: how could it know how far to read into the file for line without knowing in advance where the linebreaks are?

14:53 LauJensen: Good point :)

14:53 zakwilson: chouser: no problem. I'll poke at it a bit and if it doesn't start working, it won't be hard to downgrade.

14:54 LauJensen: kotarak: But I just dont get it, its currently getting to the last line of a 65MB file in 400ms

14:55 ysph: zakwilson: there is a swank-clojure 1.2.0 in the repos that works for me locally

14:56 zakwilson: ysph: I have 1.2.1. Starting it with lein swank works locally, but I can't connect to the remote.

14:56 kotarak: LauJensen: do you have it in cache? (read: memory)

14:56 LauJensen: no

14:56 zakwilson: Wait... maybe I did something stupid.

14:57 Nope. Connection refused

14:57 LauJensen: ~source group-by

14:58 zakwilson: nmap of local from remote shows port 4005 closed. nmap of remote from remote shows port 4005 open. I have not changed any firewall settings on remote.

14:59 kotarak: zakwilson: did you start with to listen?

14:59 a_strange_guy: I think that #'ns-unmap -ing imported classes has some wierd consequences

14:59 http://gist.github.com/429027

15:00 zakwilson: kotarak: I ran "lein swank". If it takes any options, I'm not aware of them.

15:01 tomoj: zakwilson: don't you want to look at nmap of remote from local?

15:02 zakwilson: tomoj: Uhh... yes. I said it backwards, but did it forwards. nmap of remote from local shows port 4005 closed

15:02 tomoj: do you really want it to be open, anyway?

15:02 ysph: zakwilson: what does netstat -tln on remote say regarding 4005?

15:02 zakwilson: tomoj: both machines are on my LAN. I do want it open.

15:03 tomoj: ah

15:03 zakwilson: ysph: netstat -tln|grep 4005 comes up blank.

15:04 ysph: I should note that remote is running Mac OS and might have a slightly different netstat than you expect.

15:05 ysph: if you run it without grep is should say something like "Active Internet connections (only servers)"

15:06 zakwilson: how about netstat -l -p tcp

15:08 zakwilson: ysph: that doesn't show a line with 4005, but it does show the active ssh connections. netstat -an does show a line with 4005:

15:08 tcp4 0 0 *.* LISTEN

15:11 ysph: zakwilson: this looks somewhat promising, http://github.com/hugoduncan/lein-remote-swank

15:13 zakwilson: ysph: I tried that when using Clojure 1.1 and it failed to start Swank on the remote machine.

15:14 troutwine: Would someone be so kind as to comment on this: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/6225680aad195dc0

15:14 I swear that lein was working just fine not but a few days ago. :/

15:14 cschreiner: sudo?

15:15 mozinator: troutwine, I just had the same error

15:15 troutwine, its the new oracle jdk

15:15 Twey: troutwine: Looks to me like it can't download swank-clojure-1.2.1.jar from anywhere

15:15 jdmmmmm: troutwine: try this: :dev-dependencies [[swank-clojure "1.2.1"]]

15:15 troutwine: Oh good, I've not gone mad.

15:16 jdmmmmm: I'll give it a go.

15:16 mozinator: How is the new Oracle JDK causing this?

15:16 hugod: zakwilson: I haven't tried the lein-remote-swank plugin in a while - I'll take a look to get it working with 1.2

15:17 mozinator: troutwine, I am not really sure , but when I switch between openjdk and the new oracle jdk things go from working to not working

15:17 TimMc: LauJensen: I took a look at your website's code... I guess what I really need to look at is a dynamic site's code.

15:17 zakwilson: hugod: cool. Currently, it's failing to rsync.

15:17 troutwine: jdmmmmm: That did it. I don't understand why, though. Can you explain the difference?

15:18 mozinator: troutwine, ok, clearly you have another problem :)

15:18 TimMc: LauJensen: I'm interested in finding a site that uses data from the DB to generate HTML pages based on templates.

15:18 hugod: zakwilson: probably a host key checking problem, or maybe invalid rsync options for your os

15:19 ysph: apparently lien swank as of 1.2 takes args such as lein swank 4005 "localhost"

15:19 LauJensen: TimMc: check out templates.clj. All the templates take arguments, they can come from a DB if you prefer. There's really nothing more to it

15:19 troutwine: mozinator: Hanging out as I do on Debian Stable, I don't think I'm using Oracle's Java yet.

15:19 LauJensen: And the dynamic bit is in admin.clj/webview.clj where all the urls served are dynamic

15:19 ysph: ref: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2752720/how-to-reconnect-to-slime-swank-clojure-session

15:20 zakwilson: hugod: It stopped working after I rewrote project.clj. I may have somehow broken something with remote-user and remote-path, but I'm not sure how I'd do that as they seem pretty simple.

15:21 Problem solved, I think. Just before ysph posted that, I looked up the source for lein-swank and tried specifying a host. Evidently, it was using the loopback interface.

15:21 jdmmmmm: troutwine: I have no idea. It could have been uploaded with a different groupId previously and then removed. I just go with what's in clojars.

15:24 TimMc: LauJensen: Oh, the admin stuff... I'll take a look as soon as my work machine stops crapping itself.

15:25 troutwine: jdmmmm: I believe I understand. I was instructing lein to request swank-clojure from clojure.org, rather than from where-ever availiable.

15:26 zakwilson: My problem had nothing to do with the Clojure version. I ran lein clean to get rid of the old Clojure version and also got rid of the old lein-swank version.

15:26 jdmmmmm: troutwine: It's all based on how it's identified (groupId/artifactId in clojars or other public maven repos).

15:32 zakwilson: New problem: "lein swank" doesn't seem to be honoring jvm-opts

15:34 korre: zakwilson: what is jvm-opts?

15:35 zakwilson: A project.clj key that supposedly passes arguments to the java command line

15:35 korre: a ok

15:36 whell so you can patch swank or use a shell script to start upp swank

15:37 zakwilson: Or I can edit the leiningen shell script, which is what I've done in the past. Still, that option was created to avoid having to do so and I'd like to use it.

15:39 korre: so what are you using the comand line args for in swank mode?

15:40 bartj: to all the kind souls who helped with the encoding issue, thanks! - the problem is solved

15:41 Licenser: hello my lispy friends

15:41 LauJensen: Hi Licenser

15:41 Licenser: greetings LauJensen

15:41 korre: who told you i had a lisp?

15:41 Raynes: korre: McCarthy.

15:41 He sensed it.

15:42 a_strange_guy: cemerick: you remember us dicussing new+dynamic-fns-in-vars+defrecord?

15:42 this was my idea: http://gist.github.com/429080

15:42 zakwilson: korre: the one I need is -Xmx2048M, but I've been playing with other optimizations to see if I can get more speed.

15:42 a_strange_guy: horray for metadata in clojure

15:44 bartj: chouser: The primary problem with the encoding issue was that the database and the 'server' were not utf8...

15:45 chouser: in mysql you could do - "show variables like '%char%';"

15:46 korre: zakwilson: i thought lien started up new process's... if that is the case then modifying the script shouldnt help

15:47 chouser: so it was stored right in the table, but the server was putting it on the wire wrong.

15:47 zakwilson: korre: I killed the old one first

15:49 cemerick: a_strange_guy: I'm sunk in elsewhere, can't look at that too closely atm. If you throw in some comparative benchmarks, and they're comparable with the existing way, you might want to run it by rhickey. I doubt he'll want to change defrecord so significantly (again), but anything's possible if your idea is better.

15:50 mmarczyk: good morning (ugt)

15:51 LauJensen: hurray on your open-sourcing of your site-baking code :-)

15:51 bartj: chouser: yes!

15:56 Licenser: fear! I'm bac!

16:04 LauJensen: mmarczyk: hooray :)

16:06 mmarczyk: lol, I misspelled hooray :-)

16:07 kotarak: well, it was almost hurry

16:07 hurra

16:07 mmarczyk: yup

16:07 and apparently "hurrah" is a word in English too

16:08 kotarak: hurra is german :)

16:08 mmarczyk: and also Polish :-)

16:09 LauJensen: and Danish

16:10 mmarczyk: well now, we've just found some linguistic common ground ;-)

16:11 Twey: Ah, but do you have ‘huzzah’?

16:12 mmarczyk: incidentally, how's ClojureQL coming along? I was thinking of providing a direct mapping from CQL query expressions to the internal structures I'm using in this project: https://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/adqc at some point

16:12 LauJensen: mmarczyk: Eventually 'hurra' will also be adopted into the Swedish language, but unfortunately they have been unsuccesful in teaching the population words with more than 4 letters. There's progress though.

16:12 mmarczyk: (that's Clojure in GSoC -- I'm going to post to the mailing list about this soonish, but probably after wrapping up the piece I'm working on right now)

16:13 LauJensen: mmarczyk: We're hit a small bump in the road, which Budu and I are trying to help kotarak resolve. Hard to give a deadline

16:13 (hard=impossible)

16:13 mmarczyk: oh, not really asking for that, just pinging for progress

16:13 LauJensen: progress is slow, but fortunately there's not many miles left

16:14 mmarczyk: sounds optimistic enough

16:15 LauJensen: Cynicism never had a chance :)

16:15 mmarczyk: well, s/slow/not happening/ would be worse :-)

16:27 mjg123: Hi. If I have a list of numbers-as-strings, how to convert it to a list of numbers?

16:27 something like: (map java.lang.Integer/parseInt ("1" "2" "3")) ?

16:27 a_strange_guy: ,(map #(Integer/parseInt %) ("1" "2" "3"))

16:27 clojurebot: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn

16:27 candera: ,(map #(java.lang.Integer/parseInt %) ["1" "2" "3"])

16:27 clojurebot: (1 2 3)

16:28 mjg123: oh, so the java call is not a function by itself?

16:28 candera: Correct.

16:29 LauJensen: (map read-string ["1" "2" "3"])

16:29 $(map read-string ["1" "2" "3"])

16:29 sexpbot: => (1 2 3)

16:29 mmarczyk: oh, welcome back, sexpbot

16:29 a_strange_guy: java calls expand to either the 'new or the '. (dot) special form

16:29 mmarczyk: and that's if the source the strings are coming from can be trusted

16:30 $(map read-string "#=(println :foo)" "2" "3"])

16:30 sexpbot: java.lang.Exception: Unmatched delimiter: ]

16:30 mmarczyk: $(map read-string ["#=(println :foo)" "2" "3"])

16:30 sexpbot: => :foo (nil 2 3)

16:30 mmarczyk: but, um

16:30 $(require '[clojure.contrib.java-utils :as ju])

16:30 sexpbot: java.lang.SecurityException: Code did not pass sandbox guidelines: (#'clojure.core/require clojure.contrib.java-utils)

16:30 mjg123: in fact I have lists of Character, not String...

16:31 mmarczyk: ouch. never mind

16:31 (that's was about the SecurityException)

16:32 a_strange_guy: $#=(String. "foo")

16:32 sexpbot: Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.

16:32 a_strange_guy: $[#=(String. "foo")]

16:32 sexpbot: Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.

16:32 a_strange_guy: $(vec #=(String. "foo"))

16:32 sexpbot: java.lang.Exception: EvalReader not allowed when *read-eval* is false.

16:33 LauJensen: $(map #(-> % str read-string) [\1 \2 \3])

16:33 sexpbot: => (1 2 3)

16:34 mjg123: annnd that's project euler #8 done, thanks :)

16:34 LauJensen: http://clojure-euler.wikispaces.com

16:35 mjg123: I thought you weren't supposed to do that!

16:35 LauJensen: Well...

16:35 mjg123: :)

16:35 I won't look

16:35 LauJensen: Gotta jet - Good night all

16:37 mmarczyk: good night!

16:40 ska2342: Reference types are supposed to hold one of Clojures datastructures. Has there been any discussion on holding e.g. POJOS, and what pitfalls await the programmer?

16:42 mmarczyk: mjg123: as an alternative solution, (require 'clojure.contrib.java) (for Clojure 1.2; used to be java-utils), then (clojure.contrib.java/wall-hack-method clojure.lang.LispReader :matchNumber [String] nil "123") => 123

16:42 ska2342: you're forgoing all the safety guarantees if you put something mutable behind a reference type

16:45 ska2342: mmarczyk: yes, thank you. Actually I am more interested in some readable material that sums the reasons for not doing so up. Ah, whatever, not so important, I gues..

16:50 mmarczyk: hm, you could do some rummaging around the google group, this does come up occasionally (although I regret to say I have no links at hand)

16:50 but basically, the whole idea behind the reference types is that they allow you to operate on snapshots of your data

16:51 ska2342: mmarczyk: it's OK, thank you. :-)

16:51 mmarczyk: for a Ref r, you can say, at any time, @r, and you're sure to get something consistent back; that's clearly no longer the case if that thing can change

17:27 chouser: it seems that dynamic typing allows me to solve problems that I don't undestand as fully as I would need to if I were to solve them with static typing

17:28 I suppose there might be differing opinions as to whether that's good or not.

17:28 Bootvis: the question is: is that a good thing?

17:28 chouser: :-)

17:29 TakeV: Is there a tutorial for using interfaces? I've seen a demo, but I don't quite understand them.

17:33 Er, *protocols

17:34 chouser: Halloway has a very good video on them.

17:34 TakeV: http://vimeo.com/11236603

17:35 TakeV: Thank you.

17:35 chouser: TakeV: let me know if that's sufficient for them to make sense to you

17:35 * TakeV nods

17:35 chouser: I'm considering doing a talk on protocols, but if that video is sufficient, maybe I need to find another topic.

17:37 ska2342: chouser: it is, if you are familiar with the expression problem. I had to read some other sources to get that and then it made sense to me.

17:43 zakwilson: I want to convert a number to its ascii equivalent. What's the Clojure version of CL's code-char?

17:46 Oh, it's simply char

18:07 TakeV: chouser: More information is always good.

18:37 Licenser: :)

19:22 vIkSiT: lo all. is there a way to pass "default" values to a fn definition?

19:25 ysph: vIkSiT: typically you provide multiple defs as in (defn foo ([x] (foo x 5)) ([x y] (* x y)))

19:29 Raynes: ysph: He's gone.

19:29 ysph: snap

19:29 rather impatient eh?

20:04 kensanata: I have a little swing app that lets me draw tiles. When the user presses a key, the app should switch to a different tile. Coming from Emacs Lisp, I want to do something like this: (def current-tile FLOOR_TILE) (defn get-tile [] current-tile) (defn set-tile [tile] (set! current-tile tile)) -- what's the Clojure way of doing this?

20:05 I tried various variants resulting in IllegalStateException... :)

20:05 technomancy: kensanata: probably an atom, unless you need to be able to coordinate changes across threads.

20:05 atoms are the simplest of the reference types

20:06 kensanata: Ok, will read up on atoms. Thanks. :)

20:33 charliekilo: noob compojure question: is it ok to use agents in Compojure? ... I remember that creating threads (which to my knowledge agents do), is not allowed in containers like Tomcat, Jetty.

20:35 boredomist: How could I create an instance of a nested Java class? Say I want to use Y from some.package.X.Y where X is also a class, for example

20:39 lancepantz: you (import '[some.package X]') then refer to it as X$Y

20:40 err (import '[some.package x])

20:41 boredomist: Great, thanks :)

20:41 lancepantz: np

20:49 ataggart: charliekilo: so long as you do it properly, creating new threads from webapps running tomcat, etc. is fine.

21:23 herdrick: question: is there a way to make memoized functions ignore, for the purpose of memoization, some of it's arguments

21:23 i.e. have the cache be keyed only on certain args?

21:32 ataggart: not with the default implementation, but I recall a good post that made memoize a bit more flexible. lemme see if I can pull it up

21:34 http://kotka.de/blog/2010/03/The_Rule_of_Three.html

21:37 defn: Where would (identity form) give you something you don't necessarily expect?

21:39 tomoj: where you're expecting something strange?

21:39 defn: heh, cgrand had a little clojure riddle he posted on twitter

21:39 tomoj: primitives maybe?

21:39 defn: where is ((identity X) arg1 .. argN) equal to (X arg1..argN)

21:40 tomoj: oh, I see it

21:40 interesting

21:42 vIkSiT: hi all

21:42 tomoj: is his next tweet the answer?

21:42 hugod: zakwilson: I have brought lein-remote-swank up to date. Let me know if you have any issues.

21:42 vIkSiT: If I've got a fn called myfn, invoked as (myfn a b) - whats the best method to run this function with values of in (range 0 10)?

21:43 values of a*

21:43 (like, repeatedly run this function, sort of a test harness)

21:43 mmarczyk: well

21:44 taken literally, that's not a very difficult riddle :-)

21:44 no extra constraints?

21:44 vIkSiT: mmarczyk, none :) so, I can think of two ways of doing it..

21:44 tomoj: presumably only interesting answers will be accepted

21:45 mmarczyk: vIkSiT: map, for, doseq... :-)

21:47 for cgrand's riddle, there are two huge obvious classes of answers... it would be quite interesting to discover whether there are any possibilities outside those

21:47 vIkSiT: ah, is there a way to do it using loop?

21:47 tomoj: clojurebot: loop?

21:47 mmarczyk: vIkSiT: well, sure, but why?

21:47 vIkSiT: mmarczyk, ah, thats the one I couldn't get to work..

21:48 mmarczyk: (loop [i (range 0 10)] (myfn i b)), with b to be supplied by the surrounding lexical context

21:48 vIkSiT: (btw, which riddle was just referenced here?)

21:48 mmarczyk: ouch, I mean

21:48 tomoj: loop doesn't work that way

21:49 vIkSiT: mmarczyk, clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to java.lang.Number :) loop won't work that way..

21:49 thats what I was assuming too..

21:49 mmarczyk: yeah, typed a for form, then switched to "loop" by replacing the initial symbol :-P

21:49 vIkSiT: hehe

21:49 tomoj: vIkSiT: if you're throwing away the return values, use doseq

21:49 mmarczyk: (loop [i 0] (when-not (== i 10) (myfn i b) (recur (inc i))))

21:50 KirinDave: So we gotta write a clojure to objc combiler.

21:50 Err, compiler

21:50 mmarczyk: here you go, but it's best accomplished in a different way

21:50 KirinDave: So that we can get something resembling clojure onto the iPhone. :\

21:50 vIkSiT: tomoj, mmarczyk - ah in either case, the return value won't be available..

21:51 tomoj: if you want the return value, use for

21:51 mmarczyk: also, this is assuming you're throwing away the results; if you want, say, to build a vector of them, (loop [i 0 r []] (if-not (== i 10) (recur (inc i) (conj r (myfn i b))) r)) is one possibility, though for normally be better

21:52 vIkSiT: then doseq is indeed your best bet: (doseq [i (range 0 10)] (myfn i b))

21:52 vIkSiT: aaaah. that last loop is quite enlightening, thanks.. yes, the for and doseq are cool.

21:52 tomoj: ,(= (range 10) (range 0 10))

21:52 mmarczyk: tomoj: oh, right :-)

21:53 * tomoj pokes clojurebot

21:53 mmarczyk: KirinDave: that's not really going to work with the current wording of the dev agreement

21:53 KirinDave: mmarczyk: Can they tell?

21:53 Probably not.

21:53 mmarczyk: sure, if they care to

21:54 KirinDave: Well, I am not sure.

21:54 I've written code generating compilers that people couldn't tell before

21:54 For C++ even

21:54 Raynes: $(= (range 10) (range 0 10))

21:54 sexpbot: => true

21:54 KirinDave: Fairly complex.

21:54 mmarczyk: well, I'm wishing you luck, of course

21:54 vIkSiT: hrm, clj to objc sounds like fun :)

21:54 mmarczyk: I've seen some machine-generated code and it was always pretty obvious that no human's written it

21:54 Raynes: tomoj: When at first, clojurebot doesn't succeed, try, try sexpbot. :p

21:55 mmarczyk: but I'm not saying that you can't do better

21:55 the "common wisdom" seems to be that that's actually pretty hard

21:55 tomoj: I would be incredibly surprised if objc compiled from clojure looked anything like human-written objc

21:56 KirinDave: tomoj: It might not be idiomatic.

21:56 And it might require a very comprehensive library

21:56 mmarczyk: plus all this is without bringing up the feeling of insecurity I'd have if I knew I was consciously doing things in a way incompatible with the dev agreement for the platform I was working on

21:56 KirinDave: But guys, I'm blue skying here. Come on.

21:56 mmarczyk: Actually it's really unclear what apple wants to do there.. I mean, are they really gonna kill games using Lua?

21:56 They haven't done that entirely yet.

21:57 mmarczyk: not to say I don't believe such legal shenanigans as Apple is performing right now should be banned due to the way in which they complicate (make impossible?) interoperability, because I do :-P

21:57 Lajla: mmarczyk, how do you specy ranges in clojure.

21:58 tomoj: banned by whom?

21:58 Lajla: Something I, as the greatest programmer except the MCSA should surely be told.

21:58 Like, (range 0 10) does that work?

21:58 mmarczyk: tomoj: I meant "made illegal"

21:58 Lajla: ,(range 0 10)

21:58 tomoj: crazy

21:58 mmarczyk: where it's not illegal already.

21:59 Lajla: Oh, it's above there coindidentally.

21:59 $(range 10)

21:59 sexpbot: => (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)

21:59 mmarczyk: well, I don't care enough to really argue that particular point

21:59 Lajla: $(range 0 4 2)

21:59 sexpbot: => (0 2)

21:59 Lajla: What's with the new bot?

22:00 tomoj: if there's anyone I'd be more afraid of than apple/MS/google/whoever to have in control of such things, it's the government :)

22:00 herdrick: ataggart: thanks

22:00 mmarczyk: tomoj: not sure what you mean by this

22:00 herdrick: that is interesting

22:00 tomoj: Lajla: "specy" ?

22:00 Lajla: tomoj, oui

22:01 mmarczyk: the government mandating which languages we can use -- I don't even want to think about that

22:01 Lajla: We used to have a different one that worked by a comma

22:02 mmarczyk: but a law being passed to prevent companies from these kinds of outrageous interference with people targetting their platforms in languages they don't control seems rather different

22:02 tomoj: heh i

22:02 mmarczyk: to the point where I can't see that the two ideas are really related

22:02 tomoj: I imagine a C++ country, a clojure country, a ruby country, etc, all going to war in cyberspace

22:03 Lajla: C++ would win, stupid people are surprisingly powerful in large groups.

22:03 mmarczyk: in fact, isn't it already explicitly legal to reverse engineer where that is done for interoperability reasons, right? both in US and EU

22:05 of course the current trend is to prevent consumers from circumventing DRM even where this would be for purposes compatible with fair use... locking up content being sold to consumers in formats which might well become a problem in and of themselves (a server goes down and you can't play your track...) is apparently perfectly legal

22:05 I wonder if I should perhaps discontinue ranting at this point :-)

22:12 zakwilson: hugod: I will give it a try tomorrow. I'm currently away from my LAN.

22:32 vIkSiT: hmm. so I've got this tree traversal function here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/111243

22:32 is there an idiomatic way to conver this to loop/recur, and somehow conj the results into a seq?

22:32 convert*

22:33 mmarczyk: you don't need the do around the or, for one thing

22:33 also, how about in-order for a name :-)

22:34 vIkSiT: hehe, yes, the name will change ;)

22:34 ah yes the do is gone now.

22:35 mmarczyk: but, um, this will just print the leaves left-to-right, right?

22:35 vIkSiT: yes?

22:36 in-order should do left, root, right?

22:36 mmarczyk: yup

22:37 tomoj: won't that always return false?

22:37 mmarczyk: how about (->> bt (clojure.walk/prewalk (fn [{:left left :right right}] [left right])) flatten (map #(partial println "Visited"))) or some such thing

22:38 oh, sorry, that's (fn [{left :left value :value right :right}] [left value right])

22:39 Raynes: clojure.walk?

22:39 mmarczyk: for loop/recur, you'd have to rewrite this in continuation-passing style

22:39 Raynes: :|

22:40 mmarczyk: Raynes: hi! nice to see sexpbot again :-)

22:40 vIkSiT: hmm clojure.walk. must look that up.

22:40 mmarczyk: what's wrong with clojure.walk?

22:41 Raynes: mmarczyk: <3 sexpbot :D

22:41 mmarczyk: Nothing wrong with it. I just have no clue what it is.

22:41 mmarczyk: oh :-)

22:41 vIkSiT: mmarczyk, hmm yes, was wondering if thats the most efficient or not. also, I wanted to re-learn consing recur resulsts :)

22:42 ,(doc clojure.walk/prewalk)

22:42 mmarczyk: I find it superbly useful in ast transformations where all disambiguation can be performed based on the looking down the tree :-)

22:42 $(doc clojure.walk/prewalk)

22:42 sexpbot: => ------------------------- clojure.walk/prewalk ([f form]) Like postwalk, but does pre-order traversal. nil

22:42 Raynes: mmarczyk: dysinger ran sexpbot out of #clojure for a while. sexpbot overcame and burned down his house. <3

22:42 mmarczyk: clojurebot's gone for a walk apparently

22:42 vIkSiT: aah

22:42 mmarczyk: Raynes: way to go! :-)

22:42 dysinger: are we still talking about this ?

22:42 vIkSiT: well, I guess I should look at how prewalk is implemented then :) trying to do this from first principle

22:43 Raynes: dysinger: sexpbot and I still love you. <3

22:43 mmarczyk: dysinger: no, by this point we're just sorry about your house ;-)

22:43 * dysinger rolls eyes "ok"

22:43 mmarczyk: vIkSiT: oh I can tell you that -- it's implemented in a wicked cool way :-)

22:43 dysinger: sorry guys I have real work to do

22:43 thanks for calling my attention though

22:44 Raynes: You're welcome.

22:44 Sourpuss. :(

22:45 vIkSiT: oh that IS nice

22:45 I like the inner outer implementation

22:45 Raynes: I should make sexpbot's doc special like clojurebot's. That line of -'s at the beginning is rather offputting, especially for long docstrings.

22:46 vIkSiT: Raynes, +1

22:46 Raynes: It's better if the documentation is longer than 300 characters though, because sexpbot gist's evaluation results that are over 300 characters (or is it 200?).

22:46 $(range 1 1000)

22:46 sexpbot: => (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 ... http://gist.github.com/429531

22:46 Raynes: gists*

22:47 vIkSiT: this is pretty cool too - http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Tree_traversal#Clojure

22:47 is the "walk" idiom a functional thing? or is that more clojurian?

22:48 tomoj: I wonder how deep your tree has to be to blow the stack

22:48 vIkSiT: tomoj, yes thats the reason I was trying to convert this into loop/recur

22:51 tomoj: not sure how that would be possible

22:52 mmarczyk: (loop [bt bt q (clojure.lang.PersistentQueue)] (let [{:keys [left right value]} bt items (drop-while nil? [left value right])] (condp == (count items) 1 (do (println "Visiting" (first items)) (if-not (empty? q) (recur (peek q) (pop q)))) 2 (recur (first items) (conj q (second items))) 3 (recur (first items) (into q (rest items))))))

22:52 hiredman: ~scala {((x: Any, y: Any) => (f: Function2[Any, Any, Any]) => f(x, y))(1, 2)((x: Any, y: Any) => x)}

22:52 mmarczyk: vIkSiT: I actually wrote this right here, no testing, but maybe you can give it a try ;-)

22:53 Raynes: cool idea with the gist, though I trust egregious misuse is being prevented somehowb :-)

22:54 Raynes: mmarczyk: How would someone misuse that?

22:54 mmarczyk: um, (range) ...?

22:54 Raynes: mmarczyk: It would time out.

22:54 hiredman: clojurebot: ping?

22:54 clojurebot: PONG!

22:54 mmarczyk: how large would it get though

22:55 Raynes: mmarczyk: If it times out, it doesn't give anything to gist.

22:55 mmarczyk: then you could use (range n) for just the right n

22:55 Raynes: And it still wouldn't be large enough to cause problems, I imagine.

22:55 And I could lower the timeout if necessary.

22:56 Oh noes, clojurebot is back. sexpbot's claim to fame has been interrupted. :p

22:56 mmarczyk: I wonder, ranges materialise pretty quickly

22:58 Raynes: mmarczyk: I could count the size of the output, if it was an actual problem, but that wouldn't be very efficient. Unless gist has a very low limit on what size a gist can be, it shouldn't ever pose a problem.

22:58 riddochc: Maybe if sexpbot choose a more risque name people would use it instead? ;)

22:59 Raynes: I was kidding. <3 clojurebot

22:59 But sexpbot does prove useful in situations like the one a moment ago where clojurebot disappeared briefly. :D

23:00 mmarczyk: Raynes: if you feel this way... I promise not to try to break it :-)

23:00 Raynes: mmarczyk: If you can break it, by all means, go for it. :p

23:00 clojurebot: forget Clarity of mind means clarity of passion, too; this is why a great and clear mind loves ardently and sees distinctly what it loves. -- Pascal

23:01 mmarczyk: Raynes: all of a sudden I feel evil :-)

23:02 $(doall (map #(* 2 #^Integer %) (range 4000000)))

23:02 sexpbot: Execution Timed Out!

23:03 mmarczyk: oh come on.

23:03 $(doall (map #(* 2 #^Integer %) (range 2000000)))

23:03 $(range 2500000)

23:03 sexpbot: Execution timed out.

23:03 java.lang.Exception: Thread stopped!

23:03 _brian2_: noob question > from the tree exmple, I m just trying to understnd the first function , what is f in (defn walk [node f order] ...

23:03 mmarczyk: Thread stopped?

23:03 $(range 2500000)

23:04 sexpbot: Execution timed out.

23:04 java.lang.Exception: Thread stopped!

23:04 mmarczyk: $(range 1000000)

23:04 sexpbot: java.io.IOException: Error writing to server

23:04 mmarczyk: ohhh, that's something new :-)

23:04 * danlarkin tires of this bot ego trip

23:05 mmarczyk: oh, alright... admittedly I should have queried the bot

23:06 _brian2_: were are you getting that from?

23:07 _brian2_: somebody just cited http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Tree_traversal#Java

23:09 Raynes: mmarczyk: I suspect that java.io.IOException: Error writing to server is the breakage you were looking for.

23:09 mmarczyk: _brian2_: apparently the idea is that node is a binary tree with data on interior nodes

23:09 a node looks like {:left left-branch :val value-at-current-node :right right-branch}

23:10 f is a function which you wish to call on every element of the tree

23:10 Raynes: mmarczyk: I'll catch that error and handle it specially. <3

23:10 mmarczyk: and order is a vector of keywords

23:10 possible entries: :left :visit :right

23:10 walk does these things in order at each node

23:10 :left means walk the left subtree, :right similarly

23:11 :visit means call the given function on the current node

23:11 Raynes: :-)

23:11 _brian2_: I take it its a clssic comp sci problem (?)

23:12 I never took a comp sci class

23:12 Raynes: danlarkin: I don't think I'm on a bot ego trip. :\ I just like to unsuccessfully mess with hiredman about clojurebot.

23:12 mmarczyk: _brian2_: it's also one of the basic day-to-day programming problems

23:12 _brian2_: ok, cool

23:12 mmarczyk: with all the stuff being represented as trees

23:12 _brian2_: thats better ;-)

23:13 mmarczyk: :-)

23:21 vIkSiT: http://gist.github.com/429563

23:22 here's a loop/recur-based tree walk

23:22 not pretty. :-(

23:25 _brian2_: danlarkin : I am having a problem with getting clojure-json write to file example

23:26 danlarkin: oh! yes I saw your issue

23:26 then I got distracted :)

23:26 _brian2_: ok, thanks

23:26 vIkSiT: mmarczyk, aah. looks interesting though :)

23:26 danlarkin: I think the problem is you're not opening the FileWriter in a with-open, so it never gets closed (which means the buffer isn't flushed)

23:27 at least in the example you pasted

23:28 _brian2_: ok, I dont see any with-open in your posted exmple code

23:29 danlarkin: it may be poor sample code :)

23:29 _brian2_: ;-)

23:35 vIkSiT: hmm how do I print out a clojure.lang.PersistentQueue?

23:35 mmarczyk -to debug?

23:36 danlarkin: _brian2_: let me know if that works out for you

23:36 _brian2_: ok

23:36 thnks!

23:38 vIkSiT: hrm.

23:39 mmarczyk: vIkSiT: just wrap it in a print(ln)

23:39 vIkSiT: mmarczyk, well, that just shows #<PersistentQueue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue@a2272bf8> :)

23:39 During my do, I do a (prn (peek q))

23:39 which works fine .. but just wanted to see the entire thing at once..

23:40 mmarczyk: vIkSiT: really? in that case, perhaps (println (str "#:PQ" (seq the-queue)))

23:40 vIkSiT: aha

23:40 mmarczyk: or skip the #:PQ if you're not worried about confusing it with a list

23:40 vIkSiT: (seq q) does the trick

23:40 mmarczyk: yup

23:40 vIkSiT: yes in my case its a nice tree

23:40 whew. level order is complex

23:41 https://gist.github.com/aa0a0095fe386f490b6f

23:43 interesting I didnt know cond could get a :done

23:46 tomoj: huh?

23:48 mmarczyk: vIkSiT: hm? :-)

23:48 (looking at the new gist now)

23:52 trptcolin: is there a way to use binding to replace Java methods?

23:53 mmarczyk: trptcolin: nope. you might be able to use proxy to mock them out though

23:54 not that that's likely to help a lot...

23:54 trptcolin: mmarczyk: it definitely confirms that i'm not crazy :)

23:55 mmarczyk: trptcolin: happy to hear that ;-)

23:56 _brian2_: danlarkin : is it supposed to look something like: (with-open [o (FileWriter.) ] (json/encode-to-writer [1 2 3 4 5] o "/tmp/foo.json"))

23:59 danlarkin: no, pass the path as an arg to the FileWriter constructor

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