#clojure log - Dec 09 2009

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0:00 hiredman: http://gist.github.com/252269

0:02 cp2: hiredman: nifty!

0:06 hiredman: rewriting findClass in asm means I need to figure out try/catch and for loops

0:06 and most likely casting since I decided to ignore generics

0:09 cp2: write examples in java and then just run asmifier over it

0:09 them*

0:10 hiredman: I'd have to figure out how asmifier works

0:10 how to use it, I should say

0:10 cp2: http://asm.ow2.org/doc/faq.html#Q10

0:12 hiredman: we'll see, maybe tomorrow

0:13 cp2: you could always just plow through the jvm spec with a few cups of coffee :D

0:14 hiredman: I do have a few redbulls in the fridge

0:15 yeah! who needs ASM, I'll generate the bytes myself!

0:16 cp2: all the cool kids are doing it

0:17 interferon: i have an array of the form [["x" 4] ["x" 5] ["y" 6]] - what's a good way to convert it to {"x" [4 5], "y" [6]}

0:17 hiredman: ,(apply hash-map (apply concat [["x" 4] ["x" 5] ["y" 6]]))

0:17 clojurebot: {"x" 5, "y" 6}

0:18 hiredman: hmmm

0:18 ,(map (partial apply hash-map) [["x" 4] ["x" 5] ["y" 6]])

0:18 clojurebot: ({"x" 4} {"x" 5} {"y" 6})

0:18 interferon: i was heading down the merge-with path

0:19 but not getting anywhere

0:19 hiredman: ,(apply merge-with #(if (list? %1) (conj %1 %2) (list %1 %2)) (map (partial apply hash-map) [["x" 4] ["x" 5] ["y" 6]]))

0:19 clojurebot: {"x" (4 5), "y" 6}

0:19 interferon: ,(apply merge-with conj (map (partial apply hash-map) [["x" 4] ["x" 5] ["y" 6]])

0:19 clojurebot: EOF while reading

0:20 interferon: ,(apply merge-with conj (map (partial apply hash-map) [["x" 4] ["x" 5] ["y" 6]]))

0:20 clojurebot: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection

0:20 hiredman: you know

0:20 ,(apply merge-with conj {} (map (partial apply hash-map) [["x" 4] ["x" 5] ["y" 6]]))

0:20 clojurebot: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection

0:20 hiredman: bah

0:20 interferon: :)

0:22 chouser: ,(reduce (fn [m [k v]] (assoc m k (conj (m k []) v))) {} [["x" 4] ["x" 5] ["y" 6]])

0:22 clojurebot: {"y" [6], "x" [4 5]}

0:22 konr: I need to include an image in .jar, but I'm not sure how. Must I do this with leiningen?

0:23 interferon: wow

0:23 chouser: i'm going to spend a few minutes picking that apart :)

0:23 cp2: chouser: stop hacking

0:23 ^_^

0:24 chouser: more fun than writing English

0:25 interferon: that's a very nice use of reduce

0:26 hiredman: what do you think merge-with uses?

0:27 * chouser guesses loop/recur

0:27 chouser: bah. wrong!

0:27 hm, into does though.

0:27 hiredman: :P

0:42 dnolen: _ato: you there?

0:44 or technomancy as well, so my travails with leiningen led me to discover another issue on the master branch. lein swank no longer properly loads the classpath, I did a git bisect to figure out the commit where things stopped working: http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/#issue/5

0:49 polypus: i've been wondering about how clojure's structural sharing would fare if it's vectors were used for genetic algorithms. if every generation were composed of vectors concatenated from two vectors in the previous generation. would access performance really no degrade?

0:49 chouser: pop quiz

0:49 polypus: s/no/not

0:49 chouser: (->> {:a 1, :b 2} (map #(conj % (first %))) (apply concat) (apply hash-map))

0:49 guess the return value before you try it!

0:50 polypus: 'concat' is not fast for two subvectors. It's essentially O(n) where n is the length of the second vector.

0:50 devlinsf: chouser: {1 :a 2 :b}

0:50 chouser: devlinsf: nice try! but no.

0:51 devlinsf: dammit

0:51 chouser: it's pretty twisted. don't beat yourself up. :-)

0:51 devlinsf: Let's see....

0:52 chouser: polypus: actually, the 'concat' function doesn't return vectors at all. you'd use 'into' to add one vector to the end of another.

0:52 * chouser adds an 'concatonating vectors using into' section

0:53 devlinsf: (let [& comp p partial] ((& (p apply hash-map) (p apply concat) (p map #(conj % (first %)) {:a 1 :b 2}))

0:54 chouser: :-)

0:54 it's like algebra. No need to understand it even if you need to rearrange it.

0:55 devlinsf: Your form didn't make sense

0:55 :-p

0:55 chouser: I can't imagine when it would be useful, that's for sure.

0:55 devlinsf: Okay, my final answer

0:56 {:a 2 :b 2}

0:56 cp2: like algebra its. even you rearrange undertand need no to it to if it.

0:56 chouser: devlinsf: strike two.

0:56 actually, I just realized...

0:57 devlinsf: I'm not sure about this conj

0:57 chouser: there are two possible answers if literal maps aren't guaranteed to maintain their original order.

0:57 devlinsf: yes, that's the crux of it.

0:58 ,(first {:a 1})

0:58 clojurebot: [:a 1]

0:58 chouser: ,(class (first {:a 1}))

0:58 devlinsf: Oh

0:58 clojurebot: clojure.lang.MapEntry

0:58 chouser: ,(class (conj (first {:a 1}) 2))

0:58 clojurebot: clojure.lang.PersistentVector

0:58 devlinsf: Okay.

0:58 polypus: chouser: but even with into you have both 'ends' of the vector structurally shared with the vectors they were split-at'ed from in the previous generation right?

0:58 chouser: polypus: no, only the first half

0:59 devlinsf: Here comes the pitch

0:59 chouser: polypus: into's second arg is taken as a seq, so the structure of that second vector is lost.

1:00 devlinsf: {:a :b :b 2}

1:00 And here comes clojurebot...

1:00 ,(->> {:a 1, :b 2} (map #(conj % (first %))) (apply concat) (apply hash-map))

1:00 clojurebot: {2 :b, :a :b}

1:00 devlinsf: DAMMIT

1:01 ,(map #(conj % (first %)) {:a 1 :b 2})

1:01 clojurebot: ([:a 1 :a] [:b 2 :b])

1:01 devlinsf: Ah, okay

1:02 chouser: devlinsf: thanks for playing! :-)

1:02 devlinsf: I'll have one for you someday

1:02 chouser: my pop quizes are no fun when I'm the only one who answers them. :-P

1:02 devlinsf: Okay, I've got a riddle for you

1:02 polypus: it's be cool if you could go:

1:03 ~quiz (blah blah ...)

1:03 clojurebot: Gabh mo leithscéal?

1:03 polypus: and then:

1:03 ~answer (foo bar)

1:03 clojurebot: Foo is not Baz.

1:03 polypus: where clojurebot would tell you if you were right or wrong

1:03 devlinsf: Remember my talk of a map visitor?

1:04 chouser: polypus: ooh, neat!

1:04 devlinsf: yes!

1:04 devlinsf: I found a legitimate used of (keys-pred take-while ...) and (keys-pred drop-while ...)

1:04 cp2: polypus: fork clojurebot work on it :)

1:05 polypus: k

1:05 cp2: i missed an 'and' somehow

1:05 devlinsf: See if you can find one in two days :)

1:05 cp2: this keyboard sucks :)

1:06 chouser: a legitimate use of (keys-pred take-while ...)? hm...

1:06 devlinsf: Yup

1:07 There's a hint in sun's javadocs

1:08 I'll post my case to the dev list thursday night

1:08 chouser: that's the same as visit-keys-pred ?

1:08 from your email?

1:08 devlinsf: Yes, that function

1:10 chouser: Well, time for me to be responsible

1:11 chouser: See if you can post it to the list before me

1:16 somnium: chouser: how did you implement TCO in clojurescript?

1:16 chouser: the same way rhickey didn't in JVM clojure. :-)

1:16 oh, do you mean loop/recur?

1:16 somnium: chouser: yeah

1:17 chouser: while loop, I think.

1:17 cp2: oh what, how come i didnt know about clojurescript

1:17 chouser: stop being so awesome

1:17 somnium: ok, im writing a mini-special form compiler

1:17 chouser: do{}while() actually

1:18 somnium: right labeling blocks and using continue seems least painful

1:18 right now, I mean

1:18 chouser: recur can only go to the enclosing loop (or fn) form

1:20 somnium: right, ii it encounters loop* or fn*, it gensyms a label and puts a continue on recurs in tail positions

1:20 chouser: somnium: you can look at clojurescript's compiler -- each special form is a just a defmethod, with the emitted javascript right in there.

1:20 it's only about 350 lines of code

1:21 somnium: for javascript, or something else?

1:21 somnium: Im yrying using deftypes to build the ast, so more breathing room

1:21 dawm dvorak

1:22 no runtime like clojure script, but all non-concurrent special forms

1:22 then deftype can operate on prototypes

1:23 what comes first, deftype, var, or ns?

1:23 chouser: hm. I've been thinking about the possibility of writing a converter to translate from the tree of Java objects Compiler produces to a tree of regular maps and vectors

1:23 the output would be interesting in its own right, for expressions you wanted to understand better

1:24 somnium: the asts its producing seem valid, hoping to put a demo on appengine this weekend

1:24 chouser: but it could also act as an eventual api for clojure-in-clojure. The compiler would eventually emit this format directly, and all the back ends would consume it to emit the appropriate output.

1:24 somnium: if it works then hopefully people smarter than myself can implement persistent vectors and goodies

1:25 chouser: what are you emitting?

1:26 somnium: first it walks the input lists and does some gensymming

1:26 then it emits a tree of deftypes

1:26 (bound-block, fn, etc)

1:26 chouser: huh.

1:26 I'm sorry, I don't think I see the purpose yet.

1:26 somnium: then those call eachother recursively with emit-js

1:27 hmm, mostly to help me organize my thoughts about the ast (the type system)

1:28 chouser: oh! ok, so you are producing javascript.

1:28 somnium: yes!

1:29 chouser: I think perhaps I didn't know about javascript labels when I did clojurescript.

1:29 somnium: tracking return values is tricky

1:29 chouser: I use a local flag variable everywhere instead. :-/

1:29 somnium: so the types help with that

1:29 the protocol handles ti as an extra arg

1:30 js is so squishy, cousd vars be defined in terms of deftype?

1:30 chouser: Clojure's Compiler does a bunch of type hint inference, tracking of locals for closures, and such.

1:30 somnium: js offers some convenient runtime features over java it seems

1:31 chouser: hm, we didn't have deftype...

1:32 somnium: well, its fun watching it produce gensym trees, if turns out to be useful too, all the better

1:33 just got chrome on linux today, js seems sooo fast now :)

1:33 chouser: Vars are mutable. deftype's are not. I'm not sure how you'd resolve that.

1:34 somnium: well, the goal is just to hit all special forms

1:34 chouser: though I guess since javascript isn't going to enforce 'final' for you, you could just use 'set!' on deftype fields.

1:35 somnium: then maybe a simple list, and hopefully thats enough to experiment with writing real stuff

1:36 ecmascript defines an immutable flag, but Ive never seen it used

1:36 chouser: well, have fun! I'd be happy to have use of something like clojurescript without having to write it. :-)

1:36 I should sleep.

1:36 somnium: cheers

1:36 more like a tool to help build a clojure-script I think

1:37 konr: Hmm, anyone has any idea of what would be the clojure equivalent of URL foo = this.getClass().getResource(bar)?

1:43 hiredman: (-> this .getClass (.getResource bar))

2:31 dnolen: technomancy: well I figured out a solution to both my problems and sent a pull request for the fix.

3:25 LauJensen: Morning gents

3:54 piccolino: I'm getting an exception thrown out of APersistentVector.invoke(), but I have no idea why that is called. What does invoke() do?

3:56 Oh, I see. Nevermind.

3:57 Chousuke: if you're on master, you can try using clojure.stacktrace to print more clojureish stacktraces

3:57 piccolino: What's being on master?

3:57 clojurebot: What is meta

3:57 Chousuke: piccolino: using the git repo master branch instead of the 1.0.0 release . :)

3:57 piccolino: Oh, right.

3:59 LauJensen: Chousuke: Haven't tried it yet, how to you enable that stacktrace?

3:59 piccolino: Wait, how does one use that?

4:00 Chousuke: there are functions in the namespace to pretty-print stacktraces

4:00 you need the exception object for it. usually *e

4:00 piccolino: But how do you give the arguemnt?

4:00 Oh, I see

4:00 Chousuke: (*e = last exception thrown)

4:02 piccolino: Thanks a lot.

4:02 LauJensen: And why isn't this just standard wrapping for backtraces?

4:04 Chousuke: I guess some tools depend on the java format?

4:04 I don't know :P

4:11 AWizzArd: btw, is there a way to access local variables for each stack frame?

4:11 And function parameters?

4:21 noidi: is there a way to call instanceof from Clojure code?

4:22 ah, instance?

4:29 LauJensen: AWizzArd: Recently Disclojure mentioned a little lib which lets you insert a repl instead of a prn for debugging, would that do ?

4:30 esj: morning all.

4:31 LauJensen: Morning

4:35 mee: I'm trying to write a libary, starting with setting the namespace and using the clojure.test functions, but (ns my-ns (:use (clojure test))) isn't working as expected. It seems in accordance with http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/ns to me. What am I missing?

4:36 I get "Could not locate clojure/test__init.class or clojure/test.clj on classpath"

4:37 Chousuke: are you using 1.0.0?

4:37 mee: yep, ubuntu package

4:37 Chousuke: then there's no clojure.test namespace :)

4:38 those docs are for the master branch

4:38 mee: which is post-1.0?

4:38 ah

4:38 Chousuke: which raises the question... where are then 1.0 docs?

4:39 * Chousuke thinks the doc pages should have the version/revision number...

4:42 mee: ah, I was able to get it working using my git checkout of clojure, cool.

5:02 is there a way to get clojure.test/is to dump the expected/actual values in a pretty-printed way?

5:16 lpetit: hello there

6:03 hipertracker: Where is the best Textmate bundle for Clojure? This one? http://github.com/nullstyle/clojure-tmbundle

6:21 fliebel: I'd like to know the same as hipertracker… still looking for a good editor, now stuck at JEdit.

6:24 hipertracker: fliebel: I tried to learn Emacs, several times. No joy. To weird

6:24 er, too

6:25 fliebel: hipertracker: so what are you you using for Clojure on Mac now?

6:25 hipertracker: Intellij IDEA

6:26 Today I also installed the latest plugin for Netbeans. Just checking how it works

6:27 fliebel: Eclipse, Netbeans and Intellij IDEA are all very large and bloated Java applications, right?

6:28 esj: fliebel: for forms sake, and I promise to say nothing more, I strongly advise you to learn Emacs, and be done with ever looking for another IDE again.

6:28 hipertracker: I don't like Eclipse. It is slow. IntelliJ IDEA is the most advanced. And I use it for more than one language.

6:29 esj: Emacs is not full IDE. It has not debugger, inteligent analise code on fly, advanced refactoring etc. I use Netbeans and Intellij IDEA for programming in PHP, Ruby, Python, Scala and recently started to play with Clojure

6:30 fliebel: esj: Maybe if I was a linux use I would… But for Mac, I'd like something that blends in with the rest.

6:30 esj: as per my promise, my lips, sealed they are.

6:30 hipertracker: Although maybe Emacs might be good choice because it is based on Lisp and Clojure is a Lisp dialect...

6:31 But this scares me a bit ;) http://edward.oconnor.cx/2009/07/learn-emacs-in-ten-years

6:32 AWizzArd: Honestly, those IDEs (NetBeans, Eclipse, IDEA) look promising, and one day they will be better suited for coding Clojure. In some areas they already are better. But really, I try it again and again, but they simply can't compete with Emacs+Slime+Swank-Clojure+Clojure-Mode+Clojure :)

6:34 mee: You can (use 'clojure.contrib.pprint) and then just (pprint your-object)

6:36 fliebel: hipertracker: lol

6:37 hipertracker: http://lca2srv30.epfl.ch/sathe/data/emacs_learning_curves.png

6:37 There must be something in those jokes ;)

6:38 fliebel: have you read the comments on those posts?

6:42 hipertracker: the question remains: are those jokes made by people who use(d) emacs, or those who briefly looked at it? a comment on that pst of yours: "This is like the old arguments about the Linux Command line. People who don't use it don't get it."

6:42 hipertracker: hmm, it might be helpfull http://lispcast.blip.tv/

6:43 fliebel: maybe you have right, but first link is the opinion of old users

7:27 interferon: is there a built-in equivalent to (defmacro rescue [default & expression] `(try ~@expression (catch Throwable _# ~default)))

8:11 AWizzArd: Is there a way to access local variables (including function parameters) for stack frames?

8:16 _ato: AWizzArd: http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/jdk/api/jpda/jdi/com/sun/jdi/StackFrame.html

8:18 AWizzArd: are you thinking of extending debug repl so you can look at stuff in other frames?

8:18 not sure if you can access that from within the VM or whether you have to connect via debugger interface

8:19 AWizzArd: i see

8:19 But yes, I would be interested to see at least the function args, although all local vars would be interesting of course

8:20 rhickey: AWizzArd: Clojure does emit all the proper stuff so you can see locals (including fn args) via the debug interface, as you can see in any Java debugger

8:22 AWizzArd: I tried it with jswat some months ago, but besides behaving very strangely at times (i wasn't able to set break points and such) it gave me results not in the form that I would like to see.

8:23 Instead I see arrays of arrays, and need to go into deep structures to see the values that I want to see, while in the repl (or with print debugging) I can see [10 20 30]

8:25 chouser: this debug-repl thing has me stunned.

8:26 and I haven't even tried it yet.

8:26 rhickey: AWizzArd: IntelliJ has smart collection representation, as does Netbeans (enclojure) now AFAIK

8:27 AWizzArd: chouser: what debug-repl you mean? Is that something in Contrib?

8:27 chouser: http://gist.github.com/252421

8:27 AWizzArd: rhickey: btw, do you know Findbugs? http://findbugs.sourceforge.net/

8:27 chouser: AWizzArd: discussed here: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/8d77ad0da8d190c8

8:28 AWizzArd: chouser: thank you

8:28 rhickey: AWizzArd: yes, I've run it in Clojure's Java code in the past

8:29 AWizzArd: Good. On their homepage they say that they would be interested to know how to improve it. I was wondering if it could be possible to let Findbugs do some static type checking to some extend on Clojure code.

8:31 If the Findbugs team would be interested in using data that Clojure can provide, could then maybe metadata be used to let FB know what type args, forms and return values have?

8:35 They already have a nice infrastructure, and on top of that optional type checking could be done. All Clojure code compiles as usual, but FB can inform a user when it discovers (+ 10 x) and x is not proven to be a number.

8:36 rhickey: AWizzArd: SofCheck http://www.sofcheck.com/ looks more promising, as it works at the bytecode level. I had some conversations with people there about an eval but it didn't go anywhere

8:37 AWizzArd: I already looked at that company and found it nice. Only the very high costs of their product may be a challenge.

8:45 rhickey: AWizzArd: $245 for 200 classes didn't seem bad - does it rise steeply from there?

8:48 AWizzArd: On their homepage they give an example and mention: "With an annual subscription pricing model on the order of $500 per thousand lines of code, organizations may realize annual labor savings of three to four times their investment, along with significant improvements in time to market."

8:48 this sounded to me (as a non-native speaker) that they want 50 cents per loc

8:49 rhickey: AWizzArd: do you have a link for that quote?

8:50 AWizzArd: http://www.sofcheck.com/products/inspector.html

8:51 The section is titled "SofCheck Inspector Maximizes Your ROI"

8:51 rhickey: got it

8:52 _fogus_: AWizzArd: Playing around with dr now. Really really cool. Excellent work!

8:54 AWizzArd: This debug-repl looks very nice. Maybe there is a way to get it deeper integrated. When one calls (debug-on 'some-namespace) then each time when an exception fires one gets thrown into the debug repl automatically.

8:55 _ato: AWizzArd: yeah that would be neat. I'm not sure there's anyway to catch exceptions like that though, except to wrap every single java method call with a (try ... (catch Throwable t (debug-repl)))

8:56 perhaps there's a way using the debugger API somehow

8:56 chouser: _ato: ah, is that your code?

8:57 _ato: chouser: the simpler version is mine. George Jahad did the original one that required modifications to the compiler

8:58 AWizzArd: Maybe Clojure can implicitly wrap each call into such a try-catch block if todays current jvm doesn't support this feature. The nice thing is that then every exception would give us a chance to see what is going on.

8:59 chouser: _ato: great teamwork. :-)

8:59 _ato: care to sign a CA and donate the code to contrib?

8:59 _ato: I did sign and send a CA over a month ago but AFAIK rhickey hasn't received it :(

9:00 perhaps I should try sending again

9:00 chouser: :-(

9:00 AWizzArd: Maybe if we ask very nice then Rich will accept such a CA via fax :)

9:01 _ato: perhaps it got lost in the mail, not sure how reliable international snail mail is

9:05 'course the other problem with wrapping every call in an exception catch that calls debug-repl is that it breaks local clearing as it hangs on to everything, but that's probably something you can live with for debugging

9:05 rhickey: _ato: just added you this morning

9:05 http://clojure.org/contributing

9:06 _ato: rhickey: ah, awesome! :-)

9:06 AWizzArd: This implicit wrapping would not replace the manual placement of such debug-repl calls in the code. Maybe there could be three modes: debugging off, debugging on (only reacts to explicit calls) and debugging automatic which is like on, but gets you into the debug repl on every exception

9:07 dysinger: so George worked on that debug repl a long time - it would be good to give him some credit if _ato injects his version into contrib

9:07 rhickey: AWizzArd: this so that you don't have to use a real debugger and all of its facilitites?

9:07 chouser: AWizzArd: _ato's version doesn't require "debugging on" mode or wrapper. It leverages Compiler internals so it can be "always on" without added cost.

9:08 dysinger: I agree. Clearly his idea was instrumental in getting here.

9:08 _ato: dysinger: definitely

9:09 AWizzArd: I don't mind using a real debugger if I find one that works nicely in my working environment. But anyway, such a debug repl can be a very nice helper tool.

9:10 rhickey: I'm concerned about people rewriting an 'interpreted' debugger whilst compiled debuggers with many facilities are already there. Ditto homemade profiling etc

9:11 _ato: but compiled debuggers don't let you eval stuff do they?

9:11 AWizzArd: Yes sure, but this is better than print debugging that we all do. I even found outcommented prints in Clojures sources ;)

9:12 rhickey: _ato: JAva ones do, and have for some time

9:12 AWizzArd: those prints wouldn't have been replaced by a debug repl

9:13 AWizzArd: ok

9:13 dysinger: rhickey & _ato we find it useful for lots of remote clojure processes running in screen. We may not have anticipated failure. The debug repl lets us come back later, see a problem, inspect the state of things and possibly continue.

9:13 I consider it a different use than active java debugging on the desktop

9:13 rhickey: Note I am not arguing against getting a repl at a break point, but no one seems to be plugging into the (extensive) existing JAva debug infrastructure

9:14 AWizzArd: The debugger of idea or netbeans are not a choice yet - those code editors still lack behind in too many aspects, compared to emacs so that I can't use them yet.

9:14 _ato: yeah, I think if we did want to extend it to break on exceptions we'd need to look into java debug API

9:14 rhickey: dysinger: but if all you are doing at the repl is issuing "show me x" commands...

9:15 _ato: I think it's worthwhile even just because it doesn't require installing or learning how to use any special tools

9:15 not saying that it replaces a more extensive debugger though

9:15 dysinger: I am no expert for sure. I just like the idea. Other lisps have it as a tool. 

9:15 For example http://jlongster.com/blog/2009/07/5/remotely-debugging-iphone-scheme/

9:15 rhickey: dysinger: yes, but they have much different runtime infrastructure to support them

9:16 chouser: doesn't proper use of jvm debugging require a second jvm instance?

9:16 AWizzArd: too bad that the Backwards Debugger is not very actively developed anymore: http://www.lambdacs.com/debugger/

9:16 rhickey: you can attach a JAva debugger to a running process you didn't anticipate debugging other than to start with the requisite hook

9:17 set a breakpoint and stop it anywhere

9:17 remotely etc

9:17 dysinger: true. I guess we just aren't used to doing that with emacs.

9:18 rhickey: Like I said, I don;t want to argue against debug-repl, but for acknowledging there is awesome infrastructure which Clojure already supports

9:18 dysinger: java debugger doesn't allow for changing anything though - just inspecting

9:18 rhickey: dysinger: not true at all

9:18 AWizzArd: I wouldn't mind combining that with emacs. It is just that jswat did not yet look promising in combination with it.

9:18 rhickey: you can change, eval etc

9:18 dysinger: rhickey: oh - rly - I have to go try that

9:19 AWizzArd: dysinger: did you try jswat yet?

9:19 rhickey: now, there could be some hooks there that could be leveraged better for Clojure. I don't have time to work on that

9:19 dysinger: I am too brain-warped by emacs prolly

9:19 _ato: http://georgejahad.com/clojure/cljdb.html

9:19 rhickey: but I don't think rolling interpreted runtime suport is the way to go

9:19 _ato: I haven't tried it though, it sounds hard to get setup

9:19 dysinger: _ato I tried it a while ago - it's not hard

9:20 I just was unaware that you could change, eval etc.

9:20 cemerick: dysinger: FWIW, you can run a java/clojure debugger over the wire with enclojure in a snap

9:20 dysinger: interesting.

9:21 AWizzArd: cemerick: and does Enclojures debugger show Clojure objects as we like them to see?

9:21 cemerick: Eric proposed adding enclojure's repl lib to contrib as a good baseline, but I guess that fell by the wayside

9:21 chouser: one benefit of debug-repl is the drop-dead simple setup. No new tools, guis, or terminology to learn.

9:21 AWizzArd: chouser: I agree

9:21 dysinger: I have DLed Idea 9.0 CE and have fired it up. It's hard to accept going back into a Java IDE after 5 years of not using them. The 30 second wait to launch and 300-400MB memory usage is hard to swallow.

9:21 after using console emacs/slime

9:21 AWizzArd: i would like it more than inserting all those println

9:22 dysinger: it would be okay if we only use the debugger in it

9:22 cemerick: AWizzArd: I'm a few revs behind, but I'd say the presentation rates a solid B, probably because of how decently maps, vectors, etc. map onto Java maps and collections.

9:22 chouser: cemerick: that's better than jdb

9:22 AWizzArd: we can do normal coding in emacs, and for debugging maybe a separate Enclojure or Idea could be used, possibly on a different computer.

9:23 cemerick: i just saw what jswat was doing, and that showed me arrays of arrays of ... instead of just [10 20 30]

9:23 cemerick: dysinger: 5 years is a long time. IDEA and netbeans are both top-notch environments, IMO.

9:24 AWizzArd: only that their code editors can't yet compete with emacs

9:24 I try Enclojure every few months, and it is improving. But it still isn't there yet.

9:24 cemerick: AWizzArd: never used jswat, so I can't compare there intelligently. The string representations are certainly reasonable though, and the underpinnings are totally usable.

9:24 dysinger: AWizzArd: says it perfectly - nothing competes with emacs for lisp editing

9:24 cemerick: AWizzArd: I'd strongly disagree, but *shrug*

9:24 chouser: I suppose I should try enclojure+jvi again

9:25 dysinger: and I can run it on my my netbook :P

9:25 the-kenny: Can I get a link to the debug-repl?

9:25 chouser: the-kenny: http://gist.github.com/252421

9:25 dysinger: http://georgejahad.com/clojure/cljdb.html & http://gist.github.com/252421

9:25 AWizzArd: cemerick: did you try emacs yet? :)

9:25 Little things like using the POS 1 key doesn't work as I like it. It jumps to the beginnig of the line, which is "|user==> (some code here)" When I press POS 1 it brings me to the |, but instead I want to be before the opening paren

9:26 dysinger: One word: paredit

9:26 cemerick: AWizzArd: twice -- once about three years ago for a couple of weeks, and again 2 years ago for 2 months. Those were the least productive and most frustrating months of my professional life.

9:26 chouser: heh

9:26 AWizzArd: dysinger: I was talking about Enclojure. Because of challenges like that I use Emacs, where those problems not exist.

9:26 the-kenny: AWizzArd: Try C-a

9:27 (move-to-bol)

9:27 dysinger: Also on my team we all work remote but still pair-program all day - emacs is key to sharing screens and co-editing over thousands of miles.

9:27 AWizzArd: the-kenny: is that C-a for Enclojure?

9:28 lpetit: Is there a (historical ?) reason that me living in France cannot understand about the very bad popularity of Eclipse as an IDE in USA ? (Not speaking about the comparative merits of ccw, enclojure, La clojure , just trying to understand why Eclipse is somehow the standard in Europe, and is bashed to death in USA) ?

9:28 the-kenny: AWizzArd: Oh, I thought you're in emacs. Sorry.

9:28 rhickey: My point is not to say - go to JSwat/Enclojure/IntelliJ necessarily, it's that - there is an infrastructure for Java debugging. It's very good, Clojure already supports it, it has an API... vs - let's wrap every function with some home-made cruft and reinvent stack navigation, breakpoints, step execution etc...

9:28 AWizzArd: I am in Emacs where the POS 1 key works perfectly.

9:28 the-kenny: lpetit: I think it's not country- but people-specific.

9:29 I know some guys here in Germany who love eclipse... I hate it ;)

9:29 dysinger: rhickey: I hear that - I need to go wipe cobwebs & refresh my java debugger memory

9:29 AWizzArd: the-kenny: my criticism was that all those IDEs like NetBeans, Eclipse and IDEA may be very nice and will one day be "better" than emacs. But currently they are not good enough for editing when you are used to emacs.

9:29 _ato: yeah if it doesn't have paredit-like functionality it's going to be pretty painful to edit code in. But maybe it is okay to just use their debugger. Since they can attach to a remote process presumably you can just attach them to slime's clojure instance

9:30 dysinger: I think of pre-paredit lisp editing as caveman days

9:30 I can't submit to the caveman tools inside most of the IDEs for lisp editing. :P

9:30 the-kenny: _ato: After I tried paredit the first time I thought: That's like eclipse does it.. but paredit does it right.

9:30 rhickey: also properly assess the role of an editor in such a debug situation - this quickly became an editor discussion but it really isn't one. Obviously nice integration is good, but debugging isn't editing

9:30 AWizzArd: dysinger: I think they will catch up one day.

9:31 dysinger: AWizzArd: looking forward to it.

9:31 the-kenny: AWizzArd: Some day.. but we all live now :)

9:31 AWizzArd: rhickey: you are right. The point is only that people who are not using idea (but emacs instead) can't profit from the nice debugger of idea.

9:31 dysinger: rhickey: agree - I played with emacs + jswat - seems like a workable combo

9:31 AWizzArd: But as you and others pointed out this seems to be possible.

9:31 dysinger: I'll try it again today

9:32 AWizzArd: dysinger: let me know if you get jswat working. For me it was not so nice.

9:32 dysinger: AWizzArd: ok - it's been a long time - 6 months or so

9:32 AWizzArd: But I am interested in what rhickey and cemerick said. I already have Enclojure installed and would like to see if I can get its debugger working with my emacs hosted jvm.

9:33 chouser: what version of netbeans should I get to work with enclojure-plugin-2009-11-3.nbm ?

9:33 cemerick: chouser: probably stick to 6.7.1 for now

9:34 it'll probably work fine with 6.8, but I've not tried the RC yet

9:34 chouser: ubuntu offers 6.5. Too old, right?

9:35 cemerick: ah, probably

9:35 actually, almost certainly

9:36 lpetit: the-kenny: no really, I can "feel" that it's not just about personal state. Probably about marketing. e.g. IBM better than Sun in Europe, something like that. (Adn of course i'm speaking about statistics, a single case does not make a statistic :) )

9:36 _ato: hmm "Not able to submit breakpoint LineBreakpoint defpackage.clj : 9, reason: The breakpoint is set outside of any class."

9:37 and toggle breakpoint is greyed out

9:37 is there something special you have to do to enable debugging of clojure code?

9:37 AWizzArd: chouser: i think you can simply install 6.7.1 in your home dir

9:37 _ato: (in Enclojure)

9:38 AWizzArd: _ato: i think I also had this problem. In jswat and enclojure i could not set breakpoints in Clojure files.

9:38 _ato: oh..

9:38 AWizzArd: Java 6 Update 14?

9:38 _ato: how do you use the debugger than?

9:38 lpetit: rhickey: sorry for having high-jacked the discussion. But those days, it seems like everytime the word "Eclipse" is written, #clojure or the ml empties. And it also seems like the word "Eclipse" is not often used when I can see the words "IDEA" or "Netbeans" (when it's not a discussion specific to the clojure plugins, of course, since I recon ccw is still far beyond the functionalities of...

9:38 AWizzArd: not :)

9:38 lpetit: ...enclojure)

9:38 AWizzArd: _ato: (println [var1 var2])

9:39 _ato: oh so you can't use it..

9:39 AWizzArd: right

9:39 _ato: hmm maybe it works in IDEA or Eclipse then

9:39 lpetit: rhickey: So I thought it would be interesting trying to understand what seems to me like a "natural" aversion towards Eclipse (not just the traditional emacs vs the rest of the world war)

9:39 AWizzArd: So the debug-repl looks promising.

9:39 cemerick: _ato: I use the debugger in enclojure for clojure code frequently

9:39 AWizzArd: cemerick: do you use Java 6 Update 17?

9:40 cemerick: I'm on update 15 at the moment.

9:40 But it worked fine with older revs, too.

9:40 AWizzArd: In older revs I was able to set break points. At some point, don't remember when, it wasn't possible anymore.

9:40 For .java files no problem.

9:41 lpetit: _ato: currently placing breakpoints in clojure code works to some extent in ccw. A new release is coming (code already commited, not yet release) that will extend it a little bit further. What you can do is place breakpoints in your own code. Placing breakpoints in code that sits inside jars still has some issue we'll have to tackle.

9:42 _ato: that is, we're in the debugging phase for clojure code inside jars (think clojure.core).

9:42 _ato: ah ok

9:43 can you set a breakpoint in your code and then step into jars?

9:45 * _ato installs ccw

9:47 LauJensen: ccw?

9:47 _ato: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/

9:47 ugh.. having eclipse and netbeans open at the same time is killing my laptop

9:48 LauJensen: oh

9:48 Did everybody catch that SBCL Debugging/Morse code video on Reddit today?

9:49 _ato: woah eclipse has rainbow parens

9:49 with christmasy colours too

9:49 LauJensen: s/Reddit/Hacker News

9:50 lpetit: _ato: yes

9:50 LauJensen: He puts Emacs to good use: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=985215

9:50 lpetit: _ato: yes to "can you set a breakpoint in your code and then step into jars?"

9:51 _ato: colors are editable in the project's properties ;-)

9:51 AWizzArd: lpetit: can code completion already complete things like "(Integer/pars<completion key pressed>" or "(.mu<completion>"?

9:52 _ato: hmmm

9:52 well it did break the breakpoint

9:52 which is one up on netbeans

9:52 but it says "No source found"

9:52 and it just shows vectors as java objects

9:52 lpetit: AWizzArd: "(Integer/pars<completion key pressed>" = yes ; "(.mu<completion>" = yes. But certain choices I made (for completeness of the completion) make it almost unusable (too slow) at the moment

9:52 _ato: but you can at least inspect locals that are ints and strings

9:53 oh I see

9:53 AWizzArd: lpetit: oki, sounds like it is on the right track

9:53 _ato: if you double click them it calls toString()

9:53 that's not bad

9:53 lpetit: _ato: Yes, "out of the box eclipse debugging" for the moment, but you can inspect vectors in the "Variables view" via the tree, i guess

9:54 _ato: and you can change the values of locals, that's neat

9:54 cp2: mornin

9:55 lpetit: _ato: concerning the "no source found", it's a problem I worked on yesterday night => you certainly launched the REPL via the contextual menu of a certain file

9:56 _ato: lpetit: yeah, I just created a clj file, set a breakpoint in it, right clicked it and went debug as -> clojure repl

9:56 but maybe I don't have the latest version or something

9:56 I just got whatever the eclipse install menu thing installed

9:56 from the update site

9:56 lpetit: _ato: it is addressed in github, and so will be included in the next release. For the time being, you have a very easy way to enable showing the source : start the REPL from the project's node (btw, close your current REPL, or you'll accumulate started JVMs)

9:57 _ato: you have the "officially released version", np.

9:57 rhickey: lpetit: I'm not sure about Eclipse aversion. I guess the few people that had a Java preference in IDEs and use Clojure had one for IntelliJ or Netbeans first. Also, Netbeans seems to have more credibility as a non-Java IDE than Eclipse, right or wrong

9:57 _ato: ah, that works, very cool

9:58 rhickey: lpetit: few would turn down a good Eclipse plugin for Clojure. I don't mention it only because I haven't even looked at it (sorry)

9:58 gjahad: aaaarrggh!

9:58 lpetit: rhickey: yes, I'm not even trying to compare the merits, just trying to understand.

9:58 rhickey: And that's because I don't use Eclipse otherwise for anything

9:58 _ato: lpetit: yeah, if other developers at my workplace were into IDEs they'd probably use eclipse as it's what they use for java

9:58 rhickey: not even installed

9:59 gjahad: ato: I saw the LOCAL_ENV var, but didn't understand it correctly.

9:59 so I basically reimplemented it

9:59 lpetit: rhickey: I understand. People coming from Ruby land would come from Netbeans or Intellij. So there's potential for more eclipse/ccw users when people come more in mass from java and scala land :-)

9:59 gjahad: nicely done

10:00 rhickey: lpetit: I agree -there will be many there for whom the situation will be reversed - will look for Eclipse support first

10:00 chouser: gjahad: you may have missed where we were all singing the praises of your idea.

10:00 _ato: gjahad: thanks. You had a great idea with that. :-) I just guessed LOCAL_ENV might be available at macro-expand time so tried it in a macro and it worked

10:01 gjahad: for what it's worth, I basically agree with Rich that we are not leveraging the java debug infrastructure enough

10:02 but this seemed like a relatively straightforward hack

10:02 so i decided to try it first

10:02 i also believe there is a place for both

10:02 thanks for the praise chouser

10:03 lpetit: rhickey: np. It's just that I wouldn't that people coming from Eclipse, reading material on clojure, think, by not seeing an equal treatment of ccw/Eclipse compared to the other IDEs, that they have to use another just for that. Being honest to myself, ccw is still globally beyond enclojure , but for someone not wanting to have two big IDEs like Eclipse and netbeans at the same time (because...

10:03 ...they already work in Eclipse), it already does the job, I think.$*

10:03 s/$*//

10:03 s/\$\*// :)

10:04 _fogus_: gjahad: I think I praised the wrong person earlier... in any case, awesome work. Really nice.

10:06 lpetit: _ato: all in all, what's your first impression on ccw, now that you tried it "for real", compared to what you could have "thought" about it ? (your argumented answer will help me identify the strong and weak points, and so help me go in the right direction for the future enhancements)

10:09 _ato: lpetit: heh well as an emacs user my first thought is of course: no paredit! :(

10:09 the debugger is very cool

10:09 the indenting seems to be off

10:09 or maybe I don't know how to turn it on

10:09 lpetit: _ato: note that in the clojure source code editor, a right clic to get the contextual menu shows you in a clojure submenu the entire set of currently available commands and their shortcuts. For what it was possible to do, I've mimicked the emacs keyboard shortcuts

10:09 _ato: no indenting for the moment :-( -> working on a branch on it currently, but don't expect it to be there before weeks

10:10 _ato: ah.. eval top-level form

10:10 good

10:10 that's an important one

10:11 the s-expression nav stuff is handy but it's more the editing commands that make paredit really useful

10:11 rhickey: lpetit: yes, that's my negligence - I've added a link here: http://clojure.org/getting_started

10:12 AWizzArd: Also for a live repl a slime feature could be interesting: slime remembers the result of the evaluation of every object. You can type "(foo a |" into the repl with | being the cursor, then scroll up to any object, press enter, and it will be placed into the (foo a xyz) thing and will put the exact same xyz into foo that you got above.

10:12 _ato: http://p.hagelb.org/paredit-outline

10:12 AWizzArd: _ato: btw, why Paredit and not slime?

10:12 opqdonut: different thing

10:12 lpetit: rhickey: thanks !

10:13 _ato: AWizzArd: huh? I use both

10:13 AWizzArd: what does paredit give you?

10:13 opqdonut: paredit is low-level editing commands, slime is high-level ide functionality

10:13 paredit is _real_ structural editing

10:13 LauJensen: Wow, check out 2.nd article from the top: http://www.multicoreinfo.com/ :D

10:13 opqdonut: you can't have unbalanced parens

10:13 AWizzArd: hmm

10:13 _ato: it has all these commands for manipulation s-expressions

10:13 rhickey: hrm, clojure-mode link there seems pretty stale as well - where's the latest version of clojure-mode - is it still jochu's?

10:13 opqdonut: which are great, yeah

10:14 AWizzArd: rhickey: yes

10:14 rhickey: but if you want to use clojure-mode with clojure-swank and the latest slime you may run into problems.

10:15 rhickey: I don't think I was able to get his latest clojure-mode to work stand-alone

10:15 I don't use swank/slime

10:15 AWizzArd: Some time in November something in slime changed and was breaking clojure-swank. I think it was the naming of variables or something like that.

10:15 _ato: isn't technomancy's the latest version? I doubt it works standalone either though

10:16 lpetit: _ato: if I were to really grok the daunting task of rewriting paredit for ccw, I'll do it in clojure in an hopefully editor unaware way

10:17 rhickey: lpetit: are you aware of SchemeScript? Now has some Clojure syntax support http://sourceforge.net/apps/wordpress/schemeway/2009/10/19/schemescript-1-3-0-alpha9/

10:18 AWizzArd: LauJensen: nice article

10:18 lpetit: _ato: but the real reason is : If I want to implement paredit, I must already know enough of it, so I must use it, and if I use it, I become an emacs user, and if I become an emacs user, I don't hack on ccw for Eclipse anymore :-p

10:18 rhickey: _ato: I was able to get technomancy's latest to work stand-alone

10:18 _ato: lpetit: yeah, that's true :-)

10:19 rhickey: ah, cool. :-)

10:19 lpetit: rhickey: I evaluated it once, but when I started working on ccw, it was to help the original author, and he already took some design decisions I still live with.

10:19 _ato: lpetit: is there tab completion of some sort in CCW?

10:19 that's not as important with clojure, as clojure code usually has sensible names but can be handy

10:20 lpetit: _ato: sure, but be prepare for a certain amount of "hangup" if your prefix is not long enough. Works on completing for clojure and java symbols (only those that are available to the project via the dependencies)

10:20 _ato: it's Ctrl+Space which triggers it.

10:20 LauJensen: AWizzArd: thx

10:20 _ato: ah right

10:20 yep, cool

10:21 hmm

10:21 not in the REPL it seems though

10:21 lpetit: _ato: the current implementation is not my final word.

10:21 _ato: no, sorry, just in the editor for now on. One point to enclojure for this one :-)

10:21 _ato: also something really handy is a way to cycle through the things you've entered in the REPL

10:21 like pressing M-p or up in a shell

10:21 lpetit: _ato: yes, the current "REPL" is a weak point of ccw

10:22 _ato: Eric published an article on enclojure REPL. there's room to share things between projects there, but did not have to time to look at it yet.

10:23 _ato: is there a jump-to-definition key? in emacs you press M-. and it'll jump to the definition of the function under the cursor. You can keep doing that recursively and it pushes to a stack, then you can use M-, to pop off the stack and return to where you were.

10:24 I think in Eclipse + Java it's F3

10:24 lpetit: rhickey: thanks for the info concerning SchemeScript, I didn't notice. Think maybe the indentation stuff can be borrowed from them, if licenses allow it (and also implementation detail, where all the evil hides ...)

10:26 _ato: currently, jump to definition is half-done : not in the editor, but available via the "Namespace Browser". The namespace browser requires a running REPL on the project to work. And it will reflect the state of the loaded namespaces.

10:26 _ato: another thing that emacs does which is very useful is macro expasion, you hit C-c M-m and it'll popup the expansion of a macro that's under the cursor

10:26 that should be pretty easy to implement, even if it just puts (macroexpand ...) into the repl for you

10:27 lpetit: _ato: hovering on a definition will give you the doc. Double clicking on a node will open the file. You can search for a certain symbol by typing strings in the text zone. You can enter regexps in the texte zone. The checkboxes allow you to either search the symbols names, or also the symbols docs

10:28 _ato: you're right. I'll create a separate issue for macroexpansion. The trick of doing it quickly by placing it in the repl (along with pprint I guess) will indeed provide 80% of the value, even if not very sexy :-)

10:30 _ato: I like the way errors get highlighted

10:30 that's something SLIME sucks with

10:30 it just pops up a stack trace dialog and you have to goto the line yourself

10:40 lpetit: _ato: thanks for the feedback, I've updated my todo list, and a little bit reprioritized things.

10:41 _ato: no worries. :-)

10:43 * rhickey buys upgrade to IntelliJ IDEA 9

10:47 mac__: Hello all. Anyone in here who has used the autoinstall feature of swank-clojure with carbon emacs on mac os x 10.6? It does not seem to work out of the box.

10:47 Chousuke: I wonder if the community edition of IDEA is any good.

10:48 It seems like open sourcing your Java IDE is popular nowadays.

10:49 tomoj: _ato: is there really no way to jump to the location of the error?

10:49 mac__: Chousuke: Haven't tried it myself but a friend told me it was gimped compared to the real version

10:49 lpetit: Chousuke: who else than IntelliJ did this recently ?

10:49 mac__: Chousuke: No idea in what way though :)

10:50 Chousuke: lpetit: well, not recently, but I mean NetBeans

10:51 lpetit: Chousuke: oh ok, but NetBeans open sourced is not *that* recent, is it ?

10:51 Chousuke: Well, I guess not.

10:52 lpetit: :-p

10:52 rhickey: For $249 individual license ($149 upgrade), IntelliJ is well worth the money. I'm happy to pay for it, and have for years

10:53 mac__: rhickey: What's the difference between community and payed version then?

10:54 rhickey: mac__: slide the slider here: http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/features/index.html

10:56 mac__: Ok so it basically has all the core features but lacks a lot of the enterprise stuff. Not too shabby then

10:57 _ato: tomoj: well you can press M-g g and type the line number.. I didn't see a way to jump from the stacktrace to the right file and line though. But maybe I'm just missing a hotkey

10:57 rhickey: mac__: right, but if you pay for it then the people that make it can stay alive and make new versions

10:58 mac__: rhickey: hehe stay alive, but yeah I agree, I usually pay for good software. I use emacs for clojure though and eclipse for java at work because everyone else uses eclipse...

11:00 tomoj: _ato: I figured there would be something in slime to do it (which might have not worked for clojure), but couldn't find anything :(

11:02 rhickey: mac__: I pay for Aquamacs

11:03 open source should not mean free

11:03 but there's no way to enforce that

11:04 chouser: I'm under the impression that open-sourcing Clojure was a purely practical decision, just another part of the strategy to drive adoption.

11:05 mac__: rhickey: Oh right there is a donation button on their page. You just gave me a guilty conscience, I've been using it for a while now, guess I should donate.

11:05 rhickey: chouser: yes, there's simply no way to get people to use a non-open source language anymore

11:05 nor should they

11:06 notallama: in clojure's case, reading the source is actually very helpful for learning the language

11:06 chouser: contrasting, for example, with my few open-source projects which choose that route mostly because I'm too lazy and uninterested in devoting effort to building a commercial infrastructure (order tracking, support contract wording, tracking, hobbled trial versions, etc.)

11:07 not to mention the fact they've never been sufficiently valuable for anyone to expect anyone to pay

11:07 rhickey: but, if we keep using software and not paying for it, or more important, letting the companies we work for not pay for it, we will continue to devalue our profession, and ensure that programmers will always be just employees of those that make non-free things

11:08 chouser: it seems unlikely, though, that a few of us volunteering to pay for our favorite software will have a particularly dramatic impact on that final consequence.

11:08 rhickey: the open source world needs to establish a consistent way to pay for open source, and not donations

11:08 and to have those payments make it to the creators

11:09 and to have companies feel an obligation to pay

11:09 esj: rhickey: you nailed it.

11:09 rhickey: this all separate for support fees, which serve support companies but ofetn not the creators

11:09 _ato: yeah, it's a hard problem though, particularly where software is created by heaps of different people (emacs is a good example of this)

11:09 rhickey: _ato: yeah, at scale it seems like a problem

11:10 but still, ASCAP/BMI dole out royalties from pooled payments, there are models

11:10 chouser: that's an interesting point. I have paid Apple for software, and regretted it. I'd rather have paid the same for Ubuntu, but only if the money were distributed rougly proportionally to the amount of work done per individual.

11:11 rhickey: why do we only pay for the most restricted software we buy?

11:11 er, use

11:11 chouser: right. lousy.

11:11 * chouser pays in ice cream.

11:12 rhickey: I think a big part of the problem is there is simply no mechanism to pay. And donations just seem like a hand out for charity, completely the wrong model

11:12 rullie: it's more of a moral issue, i'd say

11:12 if the moral is there, the model would follow

11:13 chouser: there are sub-markets where donations or other fees work better than others.

11:15 I had a project that appealed to Windows-using small businesses, and get a better donation rate than I expected, and never any complaints. On the other hand I once asked for a "bounty" to upgrade a firefox extension and was roundly accused of extortion.

11:19 _ato: I think a reasonably number of people would pay for stuff if it was easy, expected and you actually felt like whatever you were paying went to the authors. Not everyone of course, but it would not need to be everyone. For most projects even 5% would be enough to keep them going

11:20 I use probably thousands of pieces of open source software daily, probably written by tens to hundreds of thousands of people. It'd be really hard to pay them all.

11:21 * the-kenny would buy any creator of a cool project a beer or a pizza or so if I would meet them in real :)

11:21 the-kenny: s/I/he/

11:21 chouser: _ato: right. But I might be willing to pay into the top level of a few specific projects, if I felt certain the money would "trickle down" appropriately.

11:22 I'm afraid that "appropriately" might be the detail where the devils lie.

11:22 _ato: yeah

11:23 cemerick: something like apache would be a great place to start an experiment in that direction. The only sponsorship they offer is for the foundation itself AFAIK, though.

11:23 rhickey: chouser: people contributing to projects might only do so where they felt their compensation was appropriate

11:24 when you buy something from Apple or Microsoft you are relying on their internal mechanism for compensation being deemed fair by their employess

11:25 arohner_: it's also worth pointing out, there are a lot of people who will do something for free that they won't do for $1. Once they start getting paid small amounts of money, they remember their "billing rate", and feel taken advantage of

11:26 rhickey: arohner: and a lot of that work will be uncompensated - the compensation is the bug for which you submitted a patch will be gone in the future versions you use without you having to reapply it

11:27 arohner_: rhickey: definitely. My point was that in some cases, those "trickle down" payments could be small enough to *introduce* friction, unless you only pay, e.g. people working on a project full time

11:27 rhickey: the-kenny: how will they use that beer to send their kids to college?

11:28 arohner_: I think full or substantial part timers would be primary recipients, and it is not necessary to pay e.g. per patch

11:29 _ato: A colleague gave an interesting "what if?" talk a while ago about completely replacing copyright (for everything: books, music, software etc) with a lending-right like royalty system administered by the government (we have some smaller scale versions of this in Australia for libraries and radio licenses). He argued that it'd be workable in getting enough money to the right people, but would of course be really hard to get implemented

11:29 due to politics.

11:30 rhickey: ideally, we could all work , in employee-owned companies, which, like the original software companies,rely solely on the revenues from the products we work on. e.g. PostgreSQL could be a company employing its primary devs

11:32 chouser: I'd be ok with private (even for-profit) organization taking money for high-level projects and distributing royalty-like payments as long as the ratios seemed appropriate. I would also be willing to take payments from such an organization. :-)

11:32 rhickey: I worry that IntelliJ might suffer due to the open sourcing - I knew prior to that that the employees were dedicated to making it great, could focus on that all day, etc

11:32 cemerick: yeah, they seem to be moving on/up to other products

11:32 chouser: that might be easier to implement than replacing copyright

11:32 rhickey: now, they may be distracted as the revenue for it falls away

11:33 cemerick: rhickey: feel free to ignore if you prefer, but: what would you like to see happen for clojure w.r.t. the whole making-a-living thing?

11:34 "if rhickey ain't happy, there ain't nobody happy" ;-)

11:35 rhickey: I brought up ASCAP/BMI before - they get pools of money from blanket performance royalties (from say, radio) and distribute it to creators based upon some fraction-of-airtime estimates

11:35 _ato: My work often contracts authors of projects we use to add features that we want, but that model only works for certain types of applications

11:37 rhickey: its imperfect, but easy (and required) for users/payers, something for creators

11:38 cemerick: rhickey: musician friends of mine say that creators generally get screwed by ASCAP/BMI. Good idea, poor impl, perhaps.

11:39 rhickey: I thought you were aghast at the notion of a Clojure Foundation, though.

11:39 rhickey: cemerick: ASCAP works less well the smaller you are, yes

11:40 cemerick: I'm all for something that pays me for the work I do. I want to get paid to work on Clojure. I want to hire chouser and cgrand :)

11:40 * chouser feels small

11:41 dnolen: perhaps Clojure needs a yearly _organized_ community fund raising drive, not just a Pledgie, donate a little here a little there icon on the GitHub.com - but something time constrained, 1 month to raise 20K, 30K, more ?

11:41 I find http://www.kickstarter.com/ inspiring.

11:41 cemerick: dnolen: that's a superb idea.

11:42 esj: seems to work for Wikipedia

11:43 rhickey: I think if everyone who used Clojure at work considered it worth $100/year/developer, there would eventually be enough money to do that. Right now the donations compensate < 5% of my time, never mind the sunk time

11:43 cemerick: rhickey: you could always simply offer commercial licenses.

11:43 danlarkin: well once we get everyone together for clojure conj 2010 you can milk everyone there :)

11:44 dysinger: milk!

11:45 rhickey: I am trying to organize "Clojure Conj 2010" - if there's profit to be had from it - you can have it.

11:45 chouser: At the moment, where I work, I think allowing me to use Clojure at all is as much as they're willing to risk.

11:45 dysinger: (tutorial days are profitable)

11:45 dnolen: rhickey: $100/year isn't asking much. But I think even Clojure enthusiasts would be willing to chip in if they can see there's a concrete goal that's being worked towards (why I think Wikipedia fundraising and Kickstarter projects work so well).

11:45 the-kenny: "you can slurp* everyone there" :D

11:45 chouser: dysinger: in Hawaii?

11:45 dysinger: no probably west coast before/after javaone

11:45 like Scala Lift

11:46 danlarkin: dysinger: east coast, you mean

11:46 dysinger: I was thinking I would do it next to ICFP but there would be more java devs at JavaOne

11:46 danlarkin: oh

11:46 I see

11:46 rhickey: cemerick: at this point, I think some of the early adopter companies should band together and fund the next year of Clojure development, so maybe kickstarter is the right approach

11:48 dysinger: rhickey: you could come work for our clojure team :)

11:48 rhickey: I'm excited about a Clojure conference (not for income-production, though I'll take what I can get)

11:48 dysinger: we'd give you generous time to do your own thing :)

11:49 rhickey: dysinger: consulting in Clojure doesn't have me working *on* Clojure

11:49 dysinger: 1/2 & 1/2 ?

11:49 rhickey: dysinger: but we should talk

11:49 cemerick: rhickey: sounds like a winner to me. Seems like the population involved is small enough that we can avoid kickstarter (or, its fees, to be precise).

11:50 chouser: small and probably inter-trusting enough, if that communicates what I mean.

11:51 angerman: No matching method found: println for class swank.util.io.proxy$java.io.StringWriter$0 :(

11:51 cemerick: sure. No need for intermediaries when the principles are available with their checkbooks.

11:51 angerman: it's caused by clojure.contrib.sql.internal$print_update_counts__7482.invoke(internal.clj:125)

11:51 cemerick: principals*, of course

11:52 chouser: angerman: did you rebind *out*?

11:52 angerman: chouser: to nothing special

11:52 chouser: cemerick: though if principles had checkbooks, they might get more respect.

11:52 arohner_: chouser: hah!

11:52 cemerick: bah dum bump *crash*

11:52 :-P

11:52 angerman: lein swank -> emacs -> slime-connect -> "(with-connection db (do-prepared *stmt* '(val1 val2)))"

11:53 rhickey: Clojure2010 funding drive

11:53 ?

11:53 hrm, yeah, kickstart 5% is a lot

11:53 cemerick: that's what I was saying

11:54 chouser: a specific thing like that would make it easier for me to make a specific request to my employer.

11:54 dunno that it would increase the chances of them contributing, but it might.

11:54 cemerick: rhickey: you'd have to work things out on your end taxes-wise, but a simple check is just an expense on my (or any other company's) end.

11:55 rhickey: cemerick: I'm all for making it a company expense - that's one problem with donations

11:56 chouser: everyone using clojure already obviously trusts rhickey to a certain extent. all we'd need is a goal and a little progress bar. :-)

11:56 rhickey: I'm happy to invoice everyone, and to pay taxes

11:56 angerman: rhickey: education discounts?

11:56 dnolen: rhickey: cemerick: yeah, wasn't suggesting to actually put in on kickstarter but just as a way to get some ideas about how to build general community excitement to help Clojure.

11:56 cemerick: rhickey: well, then it's all very straightforward.

11:57 chouser: is it? what's the item on the invoice?

11:57 15 seconds of online techincal support: $3000

11:57 rhickey: chouser: there's a pledgie progress bar here: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure ($565) we'd need another system for this

11:58 cemerick: rhickey: how many companies do you know of using clojure for production work? It seems the numbers are small enough still that "system" is overstating the requirements.

11:58 rhickey: dnolen: agreed, its interesting, especially the 'sufficient promises in place before anyone's on the hook' aspect

11:59 cemerick: yes, I don't mean another system, just that pledgie isn't working right now :(

11:59 angerman: does anyone have an idea why c.c.sql has those printing issues?

11:59 cemerick: chouser: it really is as easy as that at this point, assuming the contributors aren't looking for specific "deliverables"

11:59 rhickey: chouser: I don't know - people could pay me for consulting hours to work on Clojure

11:59 cemerick: rhickey: well, I wouldn't bother with it because of the inevitable fees, anyway

12:00 danlarkin: can we pay you to fix our pet-peeve bugs? :)

12:00 chouser: cemerick: I just didn't know if the IRS cared about specific deliverables for it to be an expense instead of a donation.

12:01 Maybe just one big sponser is needed. If only there was someone at Sun who could get the ball rolling...

12:01 cemerick: chouser: as long as the recipient is a corp (or has a TIN, for a DBA), then it really doesn't matter. Presumably, the invoice would be worded better than "15s of tech support" :-)

12:01 stuartsierra: Unless you're a registered non-profit, I think it's always an expense.

12:03 cemerick: rhickey: do you have a corp, or TIN? MA has *very* stringent rules on 1099 contractors (effectively, they're always considered emps).

12:04 if not, an LLC is a cinch to set up

12:05 esj: the question is why are all the big OS projects charities ?

12:06 if it does inhibits, rather than promotes, their interaction with large supporters.

12:08 rhickey: cemerick: I have an LLC

12:08 I have a lunch appt - bbl

12:10 cemerick: nifty

12:11 hrm, what about clojure.org hosting a clojure-specific job board?

12:11 that'd be a win-win all around, I think.

12:12 immediate answer for the "ok, so where are the clojure jobs?" question, good source of revenue, and a marketing op for contributing co's

12:14 _fogus_: I'm actually surprised that hasn't been done yet.

12:15 angerman: ok. I figured it tries to write to *err*

12:15 cemerick: _fogus_: the question is, is there enough volume so that it doesn't look like a ghost town?

12:18 _fogus_: cemerick: Agreed. I wish I knew the answer. With my focus on the Clojure community it seems likely that there are enough, but it may just be my insular perspective

12:18 angerman: ~source println

12:20 cemerick: _fogus_: well, maybe jobs could just be listed on a corporate "sponsors" page as they're available to start

12:20 LauJensen: Why pay for something you can get for free?

12:21 cemerick: LauJensen: ?

12:21 LauJensen: I think most of this discussion really requires an answer to that question. I agree with Rich that OpenSource makes for a bad business model which relies on 'hand outs' more than sponsor agreements etc, so there needs to be some motivation to pay other than charity and good will

12:23 cemerick: Enlightened self-interest. If Rich stops doing what he's doing, then our jobs will be harder and less pleasant as time progresses.

12:23 LauJensen: I was thinking more along the lines of something similar to JBoss licensing options :)

12:23 cemerick: That won't work for the general population, but there's some set of clojure early adopters that are likely pretty enlightened. :-)

12:24 _fogus_: LauJensen: Well that's the root of the problem. People (in general) tend to not pay if they are not forced to and Clojure might never gained as much exposure without its license

12:24 cemerick: LauJensen: it doesn't seem that rhickey wants to offer commercial licenses *shrug*

12:24 which I can totally understand. Selling software sucks.

12:24 LauJensen: hehe, says the software vendor :)

12:24 cemerick: Exactly.

12:25 LauJensen: Well, when it comes to money I wouldn't spend my time trying to appeal to the community spirit, because people don't part from their money unless they have to, specially in these times. And I DO really want to see the good work on Clojure continue. So perhaps we need to think out of the box here, come up with a third path

12:26 _fogus_: Mark Tarver (Qi) said something interesting once, "there is no argument so feeble or lacking in conviction that people will not employ it to take the things they want."

12:26 cemerick: Selling is awesome, as challenging and rewarding as solving the most difficult programming problems. Selling *software* complicated, laden with obstacles and false starts, and is generally tied to a dreadfully flawed "support" model after the fact.

12:26 chouser: I've always been intruiged by the idea of having the newest version available only for pay, with older versions fully open.

12:27 cemerick: chouser: that would really impact the feedback loop though, no? Consider how new would have turned out without all those eyes...

12:28 LauJensen: Thats not bad, considering how much time Rich puts in between even minor revisions

12:28 cemerick: sure, the cheap eyes would loose out :)

12:28 cemerick: maybe once there's dozens or hundreds of bleeding-edge corporate users...

12:28 LauJensen: I don't think that's a bad tradeoff.

12:28 LauJensen: Maybe Rich should start by ramping Clojure Inc., and hire a sales force of 5 who can get those 100 companies

12:29 chouser: cemerick: how many of those eyes are (or will be in future versions) will to pay for access? Maybe enough? Dunno.

12:29 cemerick: it's definitely a valid concern.

12:29 LauJensen: Depends on the price-tag, that will set the entry barrier

12:29 cemerick: yeah, I have no idea

12:30 This whole problem is where systems companies are supposed to take up the slack, but the relevant ones are unfortunately otherwise occupied.

12:30 chouser: certainly wouldn't have worked for 1.0, and probably not for 1.1

12:30 _fogus_: chouser: I have some precedent with both side of the equation. My former employer sold a really nice piece of software, but the particular joint project that I worked on offered a far inferior, but *free* version. People were almost universally willing to go with the inferior product and in your case I fear they would likewise hold onto the *free* version

12:32 chouser: _fogus_: I can see that. It might also depend quite a bit on the type of product and type of user.

12:32 cemerick: yeah, the general case is, people don't pay unless they are forced to

12:32 LauJensen: _fogus_: Yet JBoss is a huge success, I think due to their sales organisation

12:32 cemerick: LauJensen: I think that's because the buyers trust JBoss more than their own internal I.T. orgs.

12:33 LauJensen: True

12:33 _fogus_: LauJensen: I'm not familiar with their licensing

12:33 LauJensen: Good insight

12:33 _fogus_: its expensive, and all you get is 'support' :)

12:35 chouser: I actually don't think that's quite right. I think people are willing to pay when it's the only "right" thing to do, even if not forced.

12:35 _fogus_: LauJensen: In my aforementioned former company, our revenue from support far outstripped the cost of licenses -- maybe this is universal

12:35 esj: I know they distract from the actual work, but training courses are both reasonably lucrative and increase the user base ?

12:35 LauJensen: chouser: you're wrong I'm afraid

12:35 chouser: That is, I think money lost through piracy is much lower than generally claimed.

12:36 LauJensen: _fogus_: outstripped?

12:36 _fogus_: LauJensen: Was much larger

12:36 LauJensen: Interesting

12:37 Hmm.. .... must revise business model :)

12:37 Chousuke: chouser: I think people will generally pay if they feel the price is right.

12:37 LauJensen: Chousuke: yes, + 10% discount

12:37 chouser: Chousuke: yes, I'm sure that's a factor.

12:37 LauJensen: At least here in Denmark you cant sell anything without those last 10% :)

12:37 Chousuke: chouser: of course, that varies for everyone so you must find the sweet spot for your target audience.

12:38 chouser: right

12:38 Chousuke: a professional developer will pay more than a student.

12:39 I think people generally like to spend money, so long as it's within their "safety margin"

12:40 esj: if you license the language now why do you not lose your user base to Scala, Go, Caml etc etc that are all free.

12:40 hiredman: how do people do completion in emacs?

12:40 I got this "smart-tab" thing off the emacs wiki and it doesn't seem to do jack

12:41 LauJensen: dabbrev-expand

12:41 hiredman: I saw a reference to that in the smart-tab code

12:43 esj: the money has to come from something over and above the language itself

12:44 Chousuke: esj: Don't worry, Clojure will stay free.

12:45 hiredman: grrr

12:45 Chousuke: There is no market for new proprietary general purpose languages.

12:45 _ato: hiredman: hmm.. M-tab is bound to slime-complete-symbol for me

12:45 esj: chousuke: this is good, but not my worry, which is how do we attract money to keep this going.

12:46 angerman: what's the better language suited for an ocaml implementation ontop, scala or clojure?

12:46 mac__: _ato: the problem with M-tab is that it won't work with most windowing systems :(

12:46 LauJensen: I expand with M-RETR

12:46 _ato: you can bind it to something else

12:46 mac__: LauJensen: Yeah M-RET is good

12:47 _ato: I bind all my windowing stuff to the hyper key

12:47 hiredman: _ato: and M-tab pops up a list I can go through and click on a symbol

12:47 except it doesn't include symbols in open buffers

12:47 and it doesn't use a single keypress

12:47 and it doesn't just do it inline

12:48 _ato: it should if there's only one completion

12:48 hiredman: (all of which vim does :P)

12:48 Chousuke: I have some completion system that works with just tab

12:48 mac__: hiredman: if you have evaluated the buffer slime-complete-symbol will suggest stuff in it

12:48 Chousuke: and does inline expasion

12:48 +n

12:48 hiredman: Chousuke: I would be interested to know what that is

12:48 Chousuke: hiredman: I'm not too sure myself

12:49 AWizzArd: LauJensen: in your round 2 (Scala vs Clojure) you link to http://bestinclass.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/hello-world/

12:49 hiredman: clojure-mode's syntax highlighting seems rather anemic too

12:50 Chousuke: ah, right, auto-complete.el :P

12:51 LauJensen: AWizzArd: Thanks :)

12:51 Chousuke: hiredman: http://github.com/Chousuke/emacs.d/blob/master/init-autocompletion.el this is what I have in my autocompletion init file. I should probably tweak it a bt

12:52 requires auto-complete.el, which I have in my site-lisp

12:54 this code is inherited from starter-kit or something I think

13:01 Drakeson: technomancy: ping

13:02 lein self-install does not work :p

13:03 the leiningen-*-standalone.jar that lein wants is not there. why don't you point it to clojars.org instead of repo.technomancy.us

13:04 technomancy: Drakeson: self-install only works with the stable branch

13:07 Drakeson: how can I bootstrap the trunk ? is there a smallish build.xml somewhere?

13:07 Chousuke: just run ant?

13:07 technomancy: Drakeson: it's explained in the "Hacking" section of the readme.

13:07 you bootstrap from an earlier release

13:07 Chousuke: oh, never mind

13:08 AWizzArd: technomancy: good that so much work is going into Lein.

13:08 * technomancy is happy to see it

13:09 Chousuke: technomancy: is it possible to build without a binary though? :/

13:10 technomancy: Chousuke: without an earlier lein version? yeah, ieure wrote a script to do it with ant for macports.

13:11 Chousuke: I think if (when) Clojure becomes self-hosting there'll have to be some stripped down version that works for bootstrapping without a previous version.

13:12 I wonder how much work maintaining one would be. :/

13:12 technomancy: Chousuke: I am not ambitious enough to have thought that far ahead. =)

13:14 Chousuke: I guess you could just strip the current java stuff to a bare minimum (to minimise the maintenance burden) and use that for bootstrapping.

13:15 I suppose it'll require quite a lot of design work to actually make that work smoothly though.

13:18 chouser: you don't the the .class files will be sufficient?

13:19 johnmn3: .

13:20 angerman: technomancy: any plans to allow jvm arguments_

13:20 technomancy: e.g. -Xmx 512M

13:21 headius: everyone always worries about self-hosted code somehow winking out of existence

13:21 I don't really get it

13:21 LauJensen: headius: then you obviously haven't used Common Lisp :)

13:21 Chousuke: chouser: I guess they might be, but not having to find a suitable previous version for building would be convenient :/

13:22 technomancy: headius: ...says the guy with a 1.7kLOC build.xml file =)

13:24 angerman: I think it could be added, but I haven't run into the need myself

13:24 headius: technomancy: I blame XML and ant for that :)

13:25 if I could do a bloody "if", it would probably be half the size

13:25 cemerick: technomancy: way to soft-pedal the maven ;-)

13:28 angerman: technomancy: I did. using incanter and some "larger" matrices

13:28 technomancy: on a sidenote, what the idea behind using -client instead of -server?

13:38 cemerick: technomancy: what do you think of clojure-maven-plugin, anyway? I presume you've used it in your travels at some point.

13:47 scellus: i'm using clojure-mode without slime or anything. is there a way to easily fix clojure's behaviour with C-c C-c, which now makes it to terminate.

13:47 ... way to fix clojure's behaviour with C-c C-c which terminates it now

13:48 the-kenny: scellus: Rebind C-c C-c in the buffer you're working on

13:48 scellus: the-kenny: what signal should it send?

13:49 the-kenny: scellus: hm.. don't know. Something that don't interrupt clojure? None, maybe?

13:49 scellus: i'd like it to get back to repl

13:49 the-kenny: I don't know much about using clojure-mode without anything

13:50 scellus: i guess it's better with slime?

13:50 the-kenny: I think so.

13:50 scellus: ok, thanks

13:50 the-kenny: Almost everything is better with slime ;)

13:50 And the setup isn't very complicated

13:50 You should try it

13:52 LauJensen: kenny baby, what did it take to get fuzzy completion running with Clojure? I want to try it out

13:52 the-kenny: LauJensen: First, you need slime-fuzzy.el from the contrib/ directory of slime

13:52 Put it anywhere in your load path, and then put some code in your .emacs.. wait, I'll paste the code

13:53 LauJensen: ~paste

13:53 clojurebot: lisppaste8, url

13:53 lisppaste8: To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.

13:53 LauJensen: Thanks alot

13:55 lisppaste8: the-kenny pasted "Fuzzy with Clojure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91828

13:56 the-kenny: lisppaste8: There you are

13:56 uhm.. LauJensen

13:56 LauJensen: uhm, Kenny? :)

13:57 the-kenny: hm?

13:59 LauJensen: That just fried my REPL

13:59 the-kenny: lol

13:59 LauJensen: oh, there we go

14:00 I called slime-fuzzy-completion-mode one too many times

14:00 the-kenny: in a new repl, typing some text and hitting TAB should be fine

14:00 (C-c TAB in a source buffer)

14:00 LauJensen: Yea, looks fun

14:04 chouser: scellus: there's add-break-thread! in repl-utils that might help.

14:05 saml: hey, is there shortcut for (doc symbol) ? in Clojure Box

14:11 scellus: a lot of reflection warnings from repl utils :)

14:12 the-kenny: scellus: Get a CA and write a patch :)

14:13 scellus: add-break-thread! solves the clojure-mode C-c thing, great!

14:16 the-kenny: scellus: What "thing"?

14:17 scellus: ah, sorry. Got it.

14:18 scellus: the-kenny: yes. and reflection warnings are not worth a patch...

14:21 dysinger: cemerick: we use clojure-maven-plugin at work on a mulitmodule clojure project with a dozen submodules.

14:21 we don't use lein

14:22 cemerick: dysinger: yeah, we're in the same position

14:22 dysinger: It works well enough (maven-plugin)

14:22 happy to share if you need

14:22 (our parent / child pom setup)

14:23 cemerick: dysinger: thanks, but we have our own über-parent that refers to internal builds of clojure and contrib :-)

14:24 I did need to add a simple patch to the plugin to make it usable for us: http://github.com/cemerick/clojure-maven-plugin/tree/clojure-options

14:24 passing options at compile- and test-time is a must-have, IMO

14:25 dysinger: cemerick: agree - we use profiles and properties to trigger

14:26 such as 'mvn -Dnotest'

14:26 (triggers testless quick builds)

14:26 instead of typing the whole long maven.test.skip=true

14:26 cemerick: yeah, I wouldn't have bothered with a patch, but we needed -Xmx for tests

14:27 dysinger: ah

14:27 cemerick: (I assume properties can't be used to pass jvm flags)

14:28 dysinger: I think in the long run we'll be on maven3 rather than lein for big projects. there's just too much good stuff in maven3

14:28 or maven rather

14:28 I like being able to use dependency:tree and versions:display-dependency-updates

14:29 and versions:lock-snapshots and "assembly:assembly -DdescriptorId=jar-with-dependencies"

14:29 etc.

14:29 etc.

14:29 cemerick: agreed. The tooling (in NB, anyway) is pretty darn handy with an authoritative pom, too.

14:40 devlinsf: Hey, quistion about clojure.lang.PersistentTreeMap

14:40 Is it the only sorted my type in Clojure?

14:40 *map

14:41 ordnungswidrig: hi all

14:41 fliebel: Has anyone ever got VimClojure working with MacVim? There are a bunch of texts and video's describing the process, but I can't get that to work with MacVim, everything is just in another place!

14:42 devlinsf: Nevermind... the Sorted interface will do what I need

14:42 * ordnungswidrig awaits his macbook... only six days to go.

14:42 dnolen: ordnungswidr: pc user before or no?

14:43 ordnungswidrig: building business models as persistent datastructures is no fun in java. my eyes hurt.

14:43 dnolen: mainly linux. But I know my bsd and have had some macs at work, um, 5 y ago

14:44 dnolen: mostly I like the hardware.

14:44 leafw: ordnungswidrig: same here. Linux runs great on macbooks.

14:46 ordnungswidrig: leafw: I think I'll end up in dual boot and some virtualization... however os X is not so bad, after all.

14:46 * ordnungswidrig thinks his wife will be requesting mac, too, because of it's beauty :-)

14:47 the-kenny: The well-written programs make osx so cool

14:47 fliebel: Any chance someone can talk me through the process of installing VimClojure in MacVim? Or tell me what to put where. I'm confused mainly by the dot files in ~ and the nailgun thing...

14:47 ordnungswidrig: What I noticed is that all the brains between the fun stuff like clojure and erlang goes together with mac users. As far as I can judge from the screencast.

14:48 s/between/behind/

14:48 solussd: on a mac here! perfect dev environment

14:49 ordnungswidrig: solussd: with a ssd or is this a purely incidental nickname regex match?

14:49 solussd: purely incidental

14:50 ordnungswidrig: solussd: *g*

14:51 the-kenny: solussd: wouldn't say "perfect", but very very good

14:51 LauJensen: hehe

14:51 the-kenny: solussd: It would be perfect, if I could run emacs in Terminal.app with CMD mapped to Meta

14:51 :D

14:52 LauJensen: I'd say OsX is as good for development as a bicycle is for F1-Racing. It just works :)

14:53 pjstadig: ok

14:53 solussd: unix + slick interface (well thought out gui, 2 levels of window management [application and app window] virtual desktops, etc) + stability + top end hardware = as good as it gets

14:53 pjstadig: i've been working on 1.0 compatible terracotta

14:53 and i think i have a much nicer solution

14:53 solussd: i develop in linux at work

14:53 devlinsf: solussd: Don't forget the real feature of a Mac

14:53 solussd: can't imagine doing development in windows- unless I'm writing windows apps

14:53 pjstadig: (defn #^{:tcshared true} foo [] 42)

14:53 ordnungswidrig: me likes xmonad with emacs

14:54 devlinsf: solussd: Starcraft

14:54 cburroughs: Is there a clojure json library that isn't strict (ie accepts unquoted keys, javascript comments etc.)

14:54 pjstadig: creates a shared function

14:54 the-kenny: devlinsf: hrhr yes

14:54 solussd: mmm starcraft 2

14:54 polypus: pj: i'm on a mac, and agree w/ most of your points, except the well thought out gui bit. i miss wmii from my linux days

14:54 the-kenny: solussd: Can't wait for it :)

14:54 pjstadig: (alter-meta! #'foo assoc :tcshared false) removes it from terracotta

14:54 the-kenny: But I'm afraid it won't run on my Macbook

14:54 (white one, without a "real" graphics chip)

14:54 devlinsf: solussd: Yeah, work is gonna stop for a week then...

14:54 solussd: I'm just glad it didn't come out a couple years ago- it would have cost me my engineering degree. :)

14:55 devlinsf: hahaha - me too

14:56 solussd: i've got a 2.53GHz 15" macbook pro w/ 512MB nvidia 9600 and 4GB ram. plus a 24" cinema display. Hopefully it runs on that.

14:56 the-kenny: solussd: I'm ~1 year before graduation with "Abitur" (german).. I hope SCII doesn't come out before that

14:57 dysinger: hey pjstadig :)

14:57 pjstadig: hey dysinger :)

14:57 ataggart: does anyone have some info on the status (if it's being pursued at all) of providing default implementations for defprotocol/deftype

14:57 dysinger: ordnungswidrig: I am also an xmonad / (console) emacs user

14:58 the-kenny: ataggart: Look at the "new" branch in git

14:58 dysinger: guis are for teh wimps

14:58 solussd: the-kenny: you have the 'use option as meta key' option checked in Terminal.app, right?

14:58 ataggart: I have it, did soemthign get added recently?

14:58 ordnungswidrig: solussd: did you buy it with 4GB or did you upgrade yourself?

14:58 the-kenny: solussd: That's option, not CMD

14:58 ;)

14:58 solussd: the-kenny: I know it doesn't help you w/ the cmd key, but at least it works

14:58 yeah

14:58 dysinger: the-kenny: I just hooked up "new" to the build.clojure.org maven snapshots repo

14:58 ordnungswidrig: dysinger: if osx is a real bsd then nothing shall prevent me from using xmonad/emacs on osx as well :)

14:59 dysinger: since we have qualifiers now (thanks chouser

14:59 the-kenny: dysinger: Sounds good :) Can I use it in leiningen then?

14:59 dysinger: osx has X and you should be able to do it.

14:59 the-kenny: yes

14:59 the-kenny: dysinger: Great! :)

14:59 dysinger: out of the box

15:00 http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/org/clojure/clojure/1.1.0-new-SNAPSHOT/

15:01 ordnungswidrig: emacs users: is there a clojre/paredit-mode command to pull all closing parenthesis/braces/brackets on a line? say )\n))\n]\n) to )))])

15:02 the-kenny: mh.. looks like swank needs to be built with the new-jar too. (RestFn-Errors)

15:04 dnolen: ordnungswidri: I don't think so, but that's because you would never need to do that in paredit :) it always adds the closing paren.

15:04 ordnungswidrig: dnolen: It's not about adding but about having them nicely at the of the line

15:05 dnolen: IMHO it's common lips stile to have sexp end with ")))))))))"

15:05 with common lisp style I mean a common style in lisp, not a style in common lisp

15:06 fliebel: ordnungswirdig: I like )\n)\n)\n)\n)\n)\n)\n better I think…

15:06 ordnungswidrig: fliebel: whis is rather uncommon?

15:06 Chousuke: fliebel: everyone will complain at you if you use that style.

15:07 closing parens go on one line. :P

15:07 fliebel: I know that, but it looks a lot more readable to me...

15:07 dnolen: fliebel: you will eventually discard your errant ways ;)

15:07 Chousuke: maybe in the beginning :)

15:07 ordnungswidrig: Chousuke: in the end, indentation would be sufficient but I leave that to the haskell guys.

15:08 the-kenny: mh.. when will new be merged into master?

15:08 Chousuke: to me it just looks silly.

15:08 * ordnungswidrig customizes the faces to hide parenthesis, *right now* :-)

15:08 ordnungswidrig: Chousuke: yes, and it eats valuable screen estate!

15:08 fliebel: chousuke; you mean that you find it easier to see where a paren starts when it looks like )))))?

15:08 dnolen: the-kenny: probably not anytime soon. lots of possible breaking changes in there.

15:08 the-kenny: ordnungswidrig: I'm sure there is a no-paren-mode

15:08 Chousuke: fliebel: why would you need to see where it starts? and that's what highlight is for.

15:08 ordnungswidrig: fliebel: you editor shows you.

15:09 the-kenny: ha, I read "no parents mode".

15:09 the-kenny: what we all have dreamed of as teenagers...

15:09 scary: flash-paren.el --- flash matching parens a la Zmacs

15:09

15:10 dnolen: the-kenny: FWIW, new is stable enough to hack with and I'm doing that without much issue. Leiningen makes it easy to work off stable clojure when I need it.

15:10 Chousuke: I don't think there's usually much need to see where an expression starts and ends, especially in clojure

15:10 the-kenny: dnolen: Yeah, I worked with new a long time, but there are some issues with leiningen and new. The packages (for example swank-clojure) isn't available for the new-branch.

15:10 fliebel: ordnungswirdig: At the moment I have no editor. emacs = hard, bunch of Java IDE's = bloated, JEdit = not integrated into OS X… I'm looking at Textmate and MacVim now, but I cant get Vim to install the Clojure mode.

15:11 Chousuke: because they tend to be only one expression anyway

15:11 dnolen: the-kenny: yeah, I think most of the issues arise from the locals clearing changes.

15:12 the-kenny: dnolen: Yes, the RestFn-Stuff

15:12 ordnungswidrig: fliebel: you will not master the full power of lisp and s-expressions until you have a decent editor like lisp which supports those. better learn you emacs now

15:12 the-kenny: ordnungswidrig: s/lisp/emacs/?

15:12 cemerick: dysinger: are those snapshots going to refresh automatically now?

15:12 ordnungswidrig: the-kenny: s/like lisp/like emacs/

15:12 dysinger: cemerick: y

15:13 the-kenny: ordnungswidrig: Yes.. better regexp ;) I'm lazy

15:13 Chousuke: emacs is worth learning for lisp

15:13 cemerick: nice

15:13 the-kenny: Chousuke: Absolutely. I agree.

15:13 Chousuke: besides, it doesn't take much to get started with clojure-mode, lisp and paredit.

15:13 er

15:13 slime

15:13 ordnungswidrig: the-kenny: or better, regexing your regex: s#/#\0 like#

15:13 Chousuke: and hl-parens

15:14 fliebel: ordnungswidrig: I like my Mac interface and my mouse, so the terminal-like, keyboard-orientated emacs is not my style I think.

15:14 * the-kenny would write a plugin to actually apply the regexes if he would use erc

15:14 * chouser glares at his mouse.

15:14 Chousuke: fliebel: you can try aquamacs.

15:14 the-kenny: fliebel: You can use Aquamacs.

15:14 lol

15:14 Chousuke: My mouse has a broken scrollwheel and I still haven't bothered to buy a new one :P

15:14 dysinger: we actually only hire emacs lovers :P

15:15 fliebel: then I might just as well not use emacs at all...

15:15 ordnungswidrig: the-kenny: clojurebot could do the regex stuff :)

15:15 Chousuke: dysinger: to avoid editor wars, huh?

15:15 dnolen: fliebel: well It's not like VIM is much friendlier than Emacs.

15:15 cemerick: might be time to stop using internal builds, perhaps

15:15 ordnungswidrig: dysinger: this is one of the few reasonable corporate policies

15:15 the-kenny: ordnungswidrig: I wrote a bot with a functionality like this once in perl. It was annoying ;)

15:15 pjstadig: are we having an editor war?

15:15 dysinger: Chousuke: so everyone is on the same page and makes pair-programming easy

15:15 dnolen: pjstadig: no.

15:15 VIM and Emacs are equally powerful and unfriendly.

15:16 cemerick: heh

15:16 fliebel: pistadig: not yet :P but I'm not sure how lang it can stay that way if I don't learn emacs.

15:16 * ordnungswidrig uses viper mode in emacs often enough

15:16 * dysinger launches a thermonuclear device

15:16 pjstadig: i don't use an editor i twiddle bits using a fork and dental floss

15:16 dysinger: I use butterflies

15:16 jasapp: I prefer cat and ctrl d

15:16 * the-kenny uses M-x butterfly to kill everyone

15:16 Chousuke: I would like the modal interface of vim but emacs is superior because of its extensibility :/

15:16 solussd: dnolen- i'd have to disagree- if they were unfriendly, why would anyone continue to use them? Especially younger people like me who have had 'fancy' IDEs their whole lives?

15:16 cemerick: I wave magnets over my laptop *really fast*

15:16 pjstadig: ~suddenly

15:16 clojurebot: CLABANGO!

15:16 * ordnungswidrig C-x ks dysingers device

15:17 solussd: the-kenny: that is a terrible abuse of butterfly.

15:17 ordnungswidrig: jasapp: what about "copy con: file"

15:17 dysinger: http://xkcd.com/378/

15:17 Chousuke: Some day there will be an emacs extension that writes code fo you without you having to do anything.

15:17 the-kenny: solussd: It's the real intention of butterfly.

15:17 devlinsf: You guys are all lame. I observe electrons :)

15:17 the-kenny: ;)

15:17 Chousuke: for*

15:17 the-kenny: Chousuke: I'm sure there is one already

15:17 jasapp: heh

15:17 dysinger: M-x butterfly !

15:18 solussd: so what does M-x butterfly do? I hear they added it to v23

15:18 the-kenny: solussd: Nothing interesting

15:18 Moves some characters and forms a sentence

15:19 fliebel: Does anyone know why the mouse was invented? I think the whole point is to move the RSI from your left pinky finger to your right wrist. :)

15:31 ataggart: anyone have installation instructions for the emacs-start-kit that actualy contain information on how to get the emacs-starter-kit into emacs?

15:38 _ato: ataggart: what are you having problems with? just check it out as ~/.emacs.d (and move ~/.emacs.d and ~/.emacs out of the way if you already have them).

15:39 rfgpfeiffer: is there a continuous integration server for slime, swank-clojure and clojure itself?

15:41 chouser: rfgpfeiffer: for clojure: http://build.clojure.org/

15:47 polypus: ataggart: you still there?

15:47 ataggart: _ato: check *what* out? the instructions say to get emacs, cd to ~, and start emacs

15:47 polypus: yes

15:48 _ato: ataggart: checkout the emacs-starter-git with git

15:48 ataggart: to?

15:48 _ato: ~/.emacs.d as the instructions say

15:48 clojurebot: emacs is best configured for Clojure with instructions at http://technomancy.us/126

15:48 _ato: cd ~; git clone git://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit.git .emacs.d

15:48 ataggart: the instructions don't make it clear what I'm suppoed to pull from git

15:49 _ato: thanks, that's actually jelpful

15:49 *helpful

15:49 _ato: "the directory containing this file" -- ie the directory containing the README file, so the whole thing ;-)

15:49 ataggart: considering I'm reading the website, the context isn't clear

15:49 _ato: okay perhaps that's a strange way of putting it, I think he was expecting people to check it out and then read the README

15:50 ataggart: yeah

15:50 I didn't

15:51 plus cloneing it to ~/.emacs.d would be a good piece of info for those of us neither proficient in emacs nor git

15:54 polypus: ataggart. make sure you do not have a .emacs file. if you do rename it to ~/emacs.d/<yourusername>.el

15:55 that tripped me up at first

16:04 ~ping

16:04 clojurebot: PONG!

16:06 fliebel: Hey, where has the compile thing gone? Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/lang/compile

16:10 I'm trying to get vimclojure to work, but it gives: BUILD FAILED

16:10 /Users/pepijndevos/Downloads/vimclojure-2.1.2/build.xml:66: Could not find clojure.lang.Compile. Make sure you have it in your classpath

16:11 I tried running clojure manually. clojure.main works fine, but clojure.jang.compile give this error.

16:11 `compile

16:11 ,`compile

16:11 clojurebot: clojure.core/compile

16:11 fliebel: that did not work either

16:12 defn: technomancy: NetNewsWire doesn't show me a list of all your recent posts, they only go up to: Oct 26, 2008 in which a scheme will be expounded upon

16:12 hiredman: fliebel: there is no such thing

16:12 there is a clojure.lang.Compile

16:13 fliebel: hiredman: that is what ant is looking for, but it says it can't find it.

16:14 hiredman: then it's not on ant's classpath

16:14 clojurebot: classpath is (System/getProperty "java.class.path")

16:15 fliebel: hiredman: how can I check ant's classpath? Thet tut I'm following told me to make a local.properties fiel conaining my clojure file.

16:15 technomancy: defn: it's valid atom; sounds like a bug report is in order.

16:15 defn: technomancy: nevermind found it: http://technomancy.us/feed/atom

16:15 that works

16:15 saml: clojure.core/str

16:15 ([] [x] [x & ys]) does this mean that str takes [] or [x] or [x & ys] ?

16:15 the-kenny: saml: Yes

16:15 saml: thanks the-kenny

16:16 my first emacs copy and paste to irc

16:16 the-kenny: (str) or (str 42) or (str "abc" 42 "foobar")

16:16 defn: M-w C-y

16:16 so sweet

16:16 hiredman: fliebel: what are you doing?

16:16 fliebel: compiling vimclojure

16:16 hiredman: I see

16:17 and what are the contents of your local.properties file?

16:17 fliebel: clojure.jar = /opt/local/share/java/clojure/lib/clojure.jar

16:17 clojure-contrib.jar = /opt/local/share/java/clojure/lib/clojure-contrib.jar

16:17 nailgun-client = ng

16:17 vimdir = /Users/pepijndevos/.vim

16:17 saml: how come (.toUpperCase "a") works but not (.toUpperCase \a) ?

16:17 \a is primitive char not Character?

16:18 (class \a) says it's java.lang.Character

16:18 the-kenny: saml: It's a static method on Character

16:18 saml: the-kenny, ah thanks

16:18 the-kenny: (Character/toUpperCase \a)

16:18 ,(Character/toUpperCase \a)

16:18 clojurebot: \A

16:18 saml: is upper case symbol always java class? like Character

16:19 hiredman: saml: nope

16:19 ,'A

16:19 clojurebot: A

16:19 fliebel: hiredman: that path is confirmed to be working, i ran java -cp that-thing clojure.main

16:19 the-kenny: saml: Read the page about java interop on clojure.org

16:19 saml: alrighty

16:19 hiredman: fliebel: how are you running ant?

16:19 do you have the local.properties file in the right place?

16:20 fliebel: well, just typing ant while in the project directory

16:20 hiredman: can you pastebin the error you get somewhere?

16:21 fliebel: hiredman: http://pastebin.com/m7c1b63ab (don't ask me why my mac is called ubuntu)

16:23 hiredman: 2 java command with the same path: http://pastebin.com/ma5011d5

16:25 jasapp: has anyone written a lot of c or c++ code?

16:25 the-kenny: jasapp: Here

16:26 jasapp: I've been writing in lisp for the 6 years and I haven't touched c for ages

16:26 how do you recommend going about writing good code (functional) in c?

16:27 fliebel: hiredman: the files at least exist. Can you, or anyone else see what's wrong?

16:27 the-kenny: oh.. no idea. Sorry. I've never bothered with functional code in c

16:27 jasapp: ahh, ok

16:27 thanks though

16:28 _ato: heh, I guess you start by implementing Clojure's data structures

16:28 (or restrict yourself to linked lists)

16:28 jasapp: who had that quote?

16:29 every language at it's heart is a broken lisp?

16:29 something like that

16:29 KirinDave_: greenspun's 10th rule, I think?

16:29 stuartsierra: Greenspun's 10th Rule, yse

16:29 yes

16:29 KirinDave_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun's_Tenth_Rule

16:29 stuartsierra: It's really hard to write functional code without a garbage collector.

16:30 KirinDave_: stuartsierra: Is it?

16:30 jasapp: kirinDave: that's it

16:30 _ato: you can get a GC library for C

16:30 I've never tried it though

16:30 KirinDave_: stuartsierra: There is a lisp that is a pure functional lisp, has no explicit GC. It's all in the stack frames, so it's a natural method of GC.

16:30 I'm trying to remember the name.

16:30 hiredman: fliebel: I between lines 65 and 66 in build.xml can you stick <echo message="${clojure.jar}" />

16:31 _ato: http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Hans_Boehm/gc/

16:31 hiredman: 65 and 66 or there abouts

16:31 stuartsierra: KirinDave_: Forth :)

16:31 hiredman: boehm is pretty easy to use

16:31 KirinDave_: stuartsierra: No.

16:31 clojurebot: stuartsierra is volunteering

16:31 KirinDave_: stuartsierra: I mean, yes. But no. :)

16:31 hiredman: forth seems pretty cool

16:31 stuartsierra: clojurebot: who said that?

16:31 clojurebot: Huh?

16:32 stuartsierra: Hmph.

16:32 KirinDave_: Not chicken...

16:32 fliebel: How do I turn on line number with MacVim :$

16:34 the-kenny: :set lines or something like this

16:34 hiredman: fliebel: set :66

16:34 er

16:34 :66

16:34 will put you on line 66

16:34 fliebel: cool

16:35 rfgpfeiffer: fliebel: ask in #vim

16:35 hiredman: rfgpfeiffer: whatever

16:35 the-kenny: Oh, I thought he want to enable line numbering

16:35 hiredman: rfgpfeiffer: people ask emacs questions here all the time

16:35 chouser: :set number if you actually want to see them

16:36 rfgpfeiffer: i did not mean to offend anybody

16:36 i just thought most of us use emacs

16:36 micampe: set lines=66 sets the number of lines displayed

16:36 KirinDave_: technomancy: ping?

16:36 hiredman: fliebel: around those line numbers, dunno if we are looking at exactly the same xml file

16:37 I don't see where emacs users get off with their sense of superiority

16:37 fliebel: hiredman: It prints this now: [echo] /opt/local/share/java/clojure/lib/clojure.jar

16:37 hiredman: hmmm

16:38 fliebel: does it matter if I'm using 1.0 or 1.1 alpha?

16:38 hiredman: shouldn't

16:38 fliebel: what version of ant are you using?

16:39 ataggart: this (http://technomancy.us/126) has been updated to refer to this (http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure). Does anyone have any installation instructions for someone who doesn't already understand how to install it?

16:39 fliebel: hiredman: Apache Ant version 1.7.1 compiled on September 22 2009

16:39 hiredman: ataggart: use epla

16:39 ataggart: that doesn't mean anything to me

16:39 hiredman: the README for swank-clojure has a link

16:39 README.md

16:40 ataggart: ok I think I have that from the starter-kit

16:40 hiredman: ataggart: http://tromey.com/elpa/install.html

16:40 the-kenny: ataggart: package.el :)

16:40 ataggart: but I have no clue what to do

16:40 the-kenny: M-x package-list-packages

16:40 hiredman: ataggart: jsut read the instructions

16:40 it's not rocket science

16:40 the-kenny: search for swank-clojure and clojure-mode, i and press x

16:40 ataggart: "Install from ELPA using package.el[1]."

16:40 hiredman: I did it the first time the day before yesterday

16:41 ataggart: have you used emacs before doing so?

16:41 cuz I haven't

16:41 hiredman: nope

16:41 ataggart: well then you're just smater than me

16:41 hiredman: the readme is there

16:41 ataggart: "Install from ELPA using package.el[1]." doesn't tell me anything

16:41 hiredman: you just have to click through the links

16:41 where it says EPLA? click on that

16:42 ataggart: there's only one link, and it's to elpa (whatever that is) and I already have it from the starter-kit

16:42 fliebel: hiredman: is version 1.7.1 fine?

16:42 ataggart: now that I "have it" I assume I need to do something

16:42 what that something is is beyond me

16:42 hiredman: fliebel: that is what I have

16:42 ataggart: did you click on the EPLA link?

16:43 ataggart: yes, it doesn't tell me how to install swank-clojure

16:43 the-kenny: hiredman: I think it's called "ELPA" :)

16:43 hiredman: on the install page for epla it tells you the command to open the list of packages

16:43 fliebel: hiredman: the strange thing is that I successfully compiled it this very morning, but gave up and threw it away.

16:43 ataggart: but I already have it installed

16:43 KirinDave_: the-kenny: You were the xkcdexplained fan, right?

16:43 hiredman: ataggart: so?

16:43 the-kenny: KirinDave_: Yes

16:43 hiredman: ataggart: the instructions are on the install page

16:43 tomoj: someone already gave the instructions :)

16:44 KirinDave_: the-kenny: Look at it. (and tell me if you can tell if I had a long, pointless meeting today or not).

16:44 ataggart: hiredman: as I said, I already have elpa from the starter-kit, so the instructions to install elpa don't help me

16:44 hiredman: ataggart: I did not say instillation instructions

16:44 I said on the install page it has instructions

16:45 tomoj: start reading where it says "Once you have installed the package manager" :)

16:45 hiredman: it's not like I am trying to mislead you or anything

16:46 I understand that you have it installed, and I am still telling you to look at the install page

16:46 fliebel: hiredman: I removed some whitespace, and now I got another error.

16:46 ataggart: hiedman: this? "Once you have installed the package manager, type M-x package-list-packages. Type r in the package menu buffer to update the list of packages available from the server. If you want a particular package, type i next to its name to mark it for installation, and then x to download and install it."

16:46 hiredman: ~xml

16:46 clojurebot: XML is like violence; if it doesn't solve your problems, you're not using enough of it.

16:46 hiredman: ataggart: yes

16:46 ataggart: what's a "package menu buffer"?

16:47 tomoj: oi

16:47 hiredman: ataggart: do you see where it says "type M-x package-list-packages"?

16:47 ataggart: yes

16:47 tomoj: it's the buffer that says "Package Menu" on it :P

16:47 hiredman: FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS AND DO THAT

16:47 fliebel: hiredman: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.pprint.PrettyWriter (pprint.clj:14)

16:47 tolstoy: Is there a good discussion about using "use" or "require" in the repl? I can never actually ever use any contrib modules.

16:47 the-kenny: KirinDave_: Looks good :) Nice and detailed explaination.

16:48 ataggart: k clearly I'm too dumb to use emcas, thanks anyway

16:48 tomoj: tolstoy: slime?

16:48 tolstoy: Nah, just the raw repl. I've not waded in to getting slime working yet. (Used it a lot with CL a few years ago.)

16:48 tomoj: oh, well you need to have contrib on the classpath

16:48 hiredman: fliebel: you need to aot compile your contrib

16:48 tolstoy: It is.

16:49 tomoj: then.. something's wrong

16:49 hiredman: ataggart: well emacs is dumb

16:49 fliebel: hiredman: how? It's already a jar.

16:49 hiredman: fliebel: a jar is just a zip file

16:49 tolstoy: (use [clojure.contrib.prxml])

16:49 java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.prxml (NO_SOURCE_FILE:5)

16:49 tomoj: oh, heh

16:49 on the repl you need to quote

16:49 (use 'clojure.contrib.prxml)

16:50 in the ns macro you don't need this because it's a macro

16:50 hiredman: fliebel: where did you get contrib from?

16:50 tolstoy: I quoted a list. Trying all the variations.....

16:50 fliebel: hiredman: macports

16:50 hiredman: fliebel: well, they did not create the jar properly

16:50 tolstoy: homebrew seems to have got installing clojure down nicely.

16:51 fliebel: hiredman: so what do I do now? unzip it and compile it somehow?

16:51 technomancy: KirinDave_: heya

16:51 KirinDave_: technomancy: hey. I was trying to use that resources/ directory last night

16:51 Chousuke: tolstoy: (use 'clojure.contrib.prxml)

16:52 KirinDave_: technomancy: JARs work correctly, but lein repl does not. the resources dir doesn't end up on the classpath.

16:52 hiredman: fliebel: that might actually work, but it would be easier to just grab contrib from git and follow the build isntructions

16:52 KirinDave_: technomancy: Is that on a more forwards branch than master?

16:52 fliebel: hiredman: can't I just leave out contrib?

16:53 tomoj: ..not if you want pprint

16:53 hiredman: fliebel: maybe, vimclojure may depend on it

16:54 fliebel: it does...

16:54 technomancy: KirinDave_: it should have made it into 1.0, but it looks like you're running into a bug. =\

16:54 fliebel: so, let's get my own contrib...

16:55 KirinDave_: technomancy: I mean, I already have to do this manually for the swank-clojure.

16:55 tomoj: thoughts on this syntax? I don't think I like it https://gist.github.com/1f1bfe9a3a2dffe8be25

16:55 KirinDave_: technomancy: So it's not an overwhelming nuisance. But I thought I'd mention it to you.

16:55 And sorry if I was obnoxious yesterday. I had one of those terrible days that starts with 3 hours sleep.

16:56 technomancy: KirinDave_: no worries. if you could send a message to the leiningen mailing list just so I don't forget this conversation I should have it fixed for 1.0.1

16:56 KirinDave_: Sure.

16:57 technomancy: that's what I get for suggesting you use something I haven't tested myself.

16:57 "What we need more of is Science."

17:00 ordnungswidrig: good night to all...

17:00 hiredman: clojurebot: reason?

17:00 clojurebot: I don't understand.

17:01 hiredman: clojurebot: reason is <reply>Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never preted to any other office than to serve and obey them -- Hume

17:01 clojurebot: Ok.

17:01 hiredman: damn

17:01 clojurebot: forget reason|is|<reply>Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never preted to any other office than to serve and obey them -- Hume

17:01 clojurebot: I forgot reason|is|<reply>Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never preted to any other office than to serve and obey them -- Hume

17:02 hiredman: clojurebot: Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never preted to any other office than to serve and obey them -- Hume

17:02 bah, they coma bust be tripping it up

17:02 polypus: now all you have to do is implement some passion

17:03 technomancy: no, it's confused because you're trying to teach a bot to follow passion over reason.

17:04 hiredman: technomancy: I'm teaching the bot to quote Hume

17:05 technomancy: it's like that time Kirk disabled that AI by feeding it two contradictory facts

17:05 clojurebot is probably sputtering and spewing smoke

17:05 the-kenny: clojurebot: the nest sentence is true

17:05 hiredman: (first time I've ever been compared to Kirk)

17:05 the-kenny: clojurebot: the previous sentence is false

17:05 clojurebot: clojurebot has a lot of features

17:05 'Sea, mhuise.

17:05 Roger.

17:05 technomancy: hiredman: with any luck it won't be the last

17:05 the-kenny: damn, typo

17:05 hiredman: clojurebot's fuzzy matcher is spining

17:07 fliebel: hiredman: another error: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/pprint__init.class or clojure/contrib/pprint.clj on classpath: (util.clj:23)

17:07 hiredman: from where?

17:07 still from vimclojure?

17:07 fliebel: yea

17:07 hiredman: did you rebuild contrib?

17:07 and follow the directions?

17:08 fliebel: yep… I think so at leas, but apparently not.

17:08 hiredman: how did you build contrib?

17:08 (did you see and read the WARNING?)

17:08 fliebel: which warning?

17:08 hiredman: the one it prints out when you don't do it right

17:09 when you run ant

17:10 fliebel: http://pastebin.com/m65abeb0a

17:11 hiredman: which version of clojure do you have?

17:11 fliebel: 1.0 I think… one moment

17:11 hiredman: if you have 1.0 then you need the 1.0 compat branch of contrib

17:11 fliebel: I did that...

17:11 hiredman: are you sure?

17:11 fliebel: at least i thought i was doing that...

17:11 I went to that branch and clicked donwload

17:11 hiredman: because that stacktrace says you don't

17:12 github doesn't do that

17:12 the download always grabs a tarball of master

17:12 fliebel: oh :S so how do i get the 1.0 version?

17:12 hiredman: http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/org/clojure/clojure-contrib/1.0-SNAPSHOT/ these might work

17:13 dunno if they are aot'ed properly for pprint

17:13 tomoj: fliebel: don't know git?

17:13 fliebel: tomoj: not really, could try to do it...

17:13 tomoj: not too bad to install on mac

17:14 fliebel: I did already, at least runnign git gives me some usage info

17:14 tomoj: then you just git clone git://github.com/richhickey/clojure && git checkout 1.0.x

17:14 or something like that

17:14 with a cd into the new clojure directory in between...

17:15 oh, and with contrib instead of clojure :)

17:15 fliebel: uuuhm… how about git clone git://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/tree/clojure-1.0-compatible

17:15 tomoj: I doubt that will work

17:16 defn: clone the repo and then checkout the branch you want

17:17 fliebel: git clone git://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib.git and now?

17:17 git checkout ….

17:18 tomoj: perhaps: cd clojure-contrib; git checkout origin/clojure-1.0-compatible

17:18 stuartsierra: The checkout command you want is like this:

17:18 git checkout -b clojure-1.0-compatible --track origin/clojure-1.0-compatible

17:19 hiredman: :|

17:19 does anyone know if build.clojure.org builds the contrib jars with -Dclojure.jar=...

17:19 fliebel: Switched to a new branch 'clojure-1.0-compatible'

17:20 tomoj: you should be good to compile now

17:20 fliebel: no errors this time….

17:20 technomancy: hiredman: ant nightly-build -Dclojure.jar=/var/lib/hudson/jobs/clojure/workspace/clojure.jar

17:21 tomoj: did you use the -Dclojure.jar stuff?

17:21 technomancy: is what's being used. that path could be wrong though

17:21 fliebel: sure...

17:21 (what is the -slim.jar)

17:21 defn: god i need to figure out how to package stuff -- ive been REPL'ing for too long

17:21 hiredman: technomancy: neat!

17:22 defn: leiningen has me closer, but im still sort of confused by the directory structure, what goes where

17:22 polypus: defn: i just went through that yesterday

17:22 fliebel: IT WORKED! Thank you all! Now for the rest of the installation… *wishes to go to bed*

17:23 defn: http://zef.me/2470/building-clojure-projects-with-leiningen

17:23 that's better -- would be nice to know how to use resources/ properly though

17:24 technomancy: defn: that feature is a week old and still buggy... just put stuff in src/ for now

17:24 defn: even other source? like public/stylsheets/blah.css?

17:24 sort of "support" src

17:26 technomancy: yes, resources is broken right now, so you have to either use src/ or fix lein. =)

17:28 fliebel: after running ant install, where should vimclojure.jar be located?

17:29 hiredman: I think it puts it in the vim directory, but I always did the install stuff manually

17:30 fliebel: hiredman: Only vimclojure.vim there. I did find a vimclojure.jar in the build directory...

17:30 defn: how do i use several files in clojure to split functions out to different files? like i have some function that is a server function, so i put it in server.clj -- do i just use the same namespace in that file to have access to a client.clj function?

17:31 that's a really convoluted question, bear with me

17:31 the-kenny: defn: namespaces, (:use) and leiningen :)

17:31 fliebel: hiredman: do I need to start that server every time?

17:31 micampe: so is vimclojure preferred over slimv?

17:31 hiredman: I don't use the nailgun server stuff

17:32 I use slime.vim

17:32 defn: the-kenny: like client.clj: (ns client (:use server)), server.clj: (ns server (:use client))?

17:32 the-kenny: defn: That's not very beautiful in my opinion - cyclical dependencies

17:32 fliebel: hiredman: I'd like to know about that tomorrow, for now I'm just going to try to get this working.

17:32 the-kenny: a depends on b and b depends on a

17:32 ataggart: defn: also namespaces need to have more than one segment

17:32 clojurebot: namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it

17:33 hiredman: ~botsnack

17:33 clojurebot: thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)

17:33 hiredman: that was a 1/200 shot

17:34 defn: ataggart: like (ns application.client (:use server))?

17:34 ataggart: defn: more like (ns application.client (:use application.server))

17:35 defn: ataggart: how would you rewrite my code above? is that what you'd do?

17:35 ataggart: defn: personally, I'd write it like: (ns application.client [:use application.server])

17:35 fliebel: hiredman: where is my ng client located? is that the same as the jar?

17:36 defn: ataggart: thanks for that

17:36 ataggart: jdefn: as I prefer not to use unquoted parens outside of a function call.

17:36 hiredman: fliebel: no idea

17:36 if you watch ant run it is pretty verbose

17:37 fliebel: hiredman: I love spotlight....

17:37 hiredman: in macvim .vimrc is called .mvimrc, right?

17:38 hiredman: never used macvim

17:38 defn: fliebel: i dont see why it wouldnt just use vimrc

17:38 micampe: fliebel: no, macvim uses .vimrc

17:39 and .gvimrc

17:39 fliebel: i see, thanks

17:42 "what a beautiful mess, this is" — Jack Johnson (rainbow parens)

17:42 but at least it's working!

17:43 hiredman: I love rainbow parens

17:44 fliebel: yea, kind of helps when you see ))))))

17:44 hiredman: but I am learning emacs at the moment, and no one can tell me how to turn them

17:44 on

17:44 technomancy: isn't it distracting? I have my parens set to nearly-imperceptible grey

17:44 defn: do you always use (:gen-class)/

17:44 ?

17:44 hiredman: defn: never

17:44 unless I need to

17:44 tomoj: I also have my parens almost invisible

17:44 hiredman: if you don't know, you don't need to

17:44 tomoj: but I occasionally find myself trying to pick out the right one in a series of )))))

17:44 hiredman: technomancy: nope, it's festive

17:44 defn: some of the examples ive seen for building a basic hello world application with leiningen show (:gen-class)

17:45 hiredman: and clojure-mode's syntax highlighting is rather bland compared to what vimclojure offers

17:45 defn: so?

17:45 technomancy: hiredman: like you'd prefer more interesting colors, or it's just not highlighting as many terms?

17:45 defn: hiredman: i dont really understand what it does

17:46 fliebel: hiredman: so vimclojure is actually quite good?

17:46 hiredman: technomancy: it's not highlighting as many terms

17:46 fliebel: yes

17:46 defn: the doc for gen-class is huge, so i was wondering if someone could sum up why you'd use it

17:46 fliebel: hiredman: sometimes I almost feel ashamed for not using emacs :D

17:46 hiredman: well, don't

17:46 tomoj: huh, is 1.1 almost upon us?

17:46 hiredman: emacs puts its pants on just like everybody else

17:47 technomancy: hiredman: the list of core vars is circa pre-1.0; it could use a refresh.

17:47 defn: only it does it with lisp

17:47 Emacs: "I'm putting my panths on"

17:50 hiredman: http://www.thelastcitadel.com/images/vim.jpg

17:50 opqdonut: gah, jpeg

17:50 i was about to criticize your fonts

17:50 hiredman: :P

17:51 fliebel: hiredman: what is this?

17:51 hiredman: anyway, this in the office on windows in putty

17:51 this is vim, in putty, with vimclojure looking at core.clj

17:51 defn: technomancy: what's the way to force indentation with RET instead of hitting C-j every time?

17:51 hiredman: vim tabs across the top, screen tabs across the bottom

17:52 defn: specifically in clojure-mode

17:54 fliebel: this is mine now: http://img.ly/gew

17:55 micampe: fliebel: set go-=T

17:55 fliebel: micampe: what?

17:56 micampe: use it to get rid of the useless toolbar

17:56 mtm: fliebel: sort an angry fruit salad :)

17:56 hiredman: http://gist.github.com/252269 <-- laboriously written in emacs

17:56 fliebel: micampe: which useless toolbar?

17:57 micampe: vim's

17:57 tomoj: hiredman: using paredit, right?

17:57 hiredman: micampe: it might not be useless for him yet

17:57 tomoj: yes

17:57 minus the times I some how lost a paren then paredit wouldn't let me add it back in

17:57 fliebel: micampe & hiredman: If you mean the open and save thing… as soon as I learn some command, okay?

17:57 chouser: ouch

17:58 tomoj: that used to happed to me, I think my upgrade of paredit fixed it

17:58 _something_ fixed it anyway

17:58 Chousuke: C-q )

17:58 hiredman: I know

17:59 anyway, it's an editor

17:59 _mst: Chousuke: I had to disable C-q (paren) because I kept doing it and messing up parens. Now when I need an extra paren I'm forced to borrow one from somewhere else in the buffer :P

17:59 fliebel: micampe: I can also use the oval in the right top corner to show and hide that toolbar.

17:59 _mst: it's reminiscent of that XKCD comic where a fledgling lisp programmer was given his father's parens :P

17:59 Chousuke: :P

18:00 hiredman: anyway, looks pretty neat.

18:00 hiredman: Yes

18:00 micampe: fliebel: yes, but that wouldn't stick. while my command in .vimrc would.

18:00 ataggart: http://xkcd.com/297/

18:00 hiredman: the macros really need to be cleaned up

18:00 fliebel: Thanks once more, I'm gone for now :)

18:00 micampe: I think I could retype http-agent from memory. I am trying to build something analogous around a socket.

18:01 hiredman: macros calling macros is bad, macros calling helper functions is good

18:02 micampe: but I just can't see how in/out streams would/should work

18:03 hiredman: micampe: one option is to treat it like an agent

18:03 which I imagine is sort of how http-agent works, but I've never used it

18:04 micampe: yes, that's how I did it

18:04 but now I'm stuck trying to do input/output

18:05 basically, I am trying to write a client for KirinDave's chat server

18:05 hiredman: that is what I am saying, you pass a function and at some point later the function is called with the inputstream and outputstream as args

18:07 lisppaste8: micampe pasted "socket-agent" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91838

18:12 hiredman: :|

18:12 I don't use duck-streams

18:12 wouldn't

18:12 micampe: I think I should have a thread reading and printing what's coming down the pipe and a loop for reading input and sending it over

18:12 why not? looks simple and easy to me

18:13 hiredman: only works for character streams

18:13 micampe: yes, it's enough for this experiment

18:13 hiredman: there was a recent commit that added a socket-reader or some such

18:14 micampe: oh. let me see.

18:15 ah yes, I have that

18:44 PrinceOfA: hi, i just started to study clojure. how do i use the contrib libs?

18:46 hiredman: but the jar on your classpath

18:46 clojurebot: classpath is (System/getProperty "java.class.path")

18:46 dnolen: PrinceOfA: how are you using clojure? What evironment are you using?

18:47 PrinceOfA: i'm on os x. i installed clojure via macports

18:47 dnolen: so you're just using it at the command line PrinceOfA?

18:47 PrinceOfA: dnolen: yes

18:49 say i need str-utils

18:49 i found the api in http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/str-utils-api.html

18:49 dnolen: PrinceOfA: as hiredman says you'll need clojure-contrib, I'm not sure if MacPorts installs that as well. Just start up the clojure repl with the classpath option (-cp) pointing to the location of your clojure.jar as well as clojure-contrib.jar

18:50 PrinceOfA: how do you start your REPL?

18:50 PrinceOfA: with "clj"

18:51 which clj says /opt/local/bin/clj

18:52 dnolen: well does the clj shell script mention clojure-contrib?

18:53 liebke: just type (use 'clojure.contrib.str-utils) at the repl. If it returns nil, you have clojure.contrib on your classpath

18:54 PrinceOfA: no it does not :(

18:55 str-utils is not on the classpath

18:55 is there a clever way off adding libs or just manually build contrib jars etc?

18:56 hiredman: adding libs and building jars are completely different things

18:56 you have clojure-contrib.jar?

18:59 PrinceOfA: hiredman: no i haven't

19:02 hiredman: then you should get it

19:02 PrinceOfA: where can i get it?

19:02 hiredman: what version of clojure are you running?

19:03 PrinceOfA: 1.0.0.

19:05 hiredman: http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/org/clojure/clojure-contrib/1.0-SNAPSHOT/clojure-contrib-1.0-20091208.130239-27.jar

19:16 defn: what does (ns mynamespace (:gen-class)) do?

19:16 the gen-class portion specifically

19:17 Chousuke: defn: it means there will be a named class generated corresponding to the namespace.

19:17 defn: and you can define java methods in your code.

19:17 defn: ah-ha

19:17 without it i can still compile a jar right?

19:18 i keep seeing this hello-world example with leiningen that use :gen-class

19:18 i dont really see the point

19:19 hiredman: a jar is not compiled

19:19 a jar is just a zipfile

19:19 defn: ah ok

19:19 Chousuke: defn: it's mainly an interop construct.

19:20 hiredman: java happens to treat jars files as directories

19:23 defn: Chousuke: hiredman: thanks

19:24 hiredman: java happens to treat jars on the classpath as directories

19:24 ahem

20:01 tolstoy: How do people work with slime/emacs as far as class path libs go.

20:01 Is there a function that loads JARs or updates the classpath dynamically?

20:02 Surely, you don't have to have a hardcoded CLASSPATH in your environment before starting emacs....

20:03 mee: I'm not an emacs user, but I think you do specify it in your configuration file (which can be re-eval'd while emacs is running)

20:06 technomancy: tolstoy: you have to restart your instance if you want to change your classpath. sad but true. (but it's easy to do)

20:06 but the classpath is calculated dynamically by M-x swank-clojure-project; it's not hardcoded

20:08 slyrus: tolstoy: yes, this has been driving me crazy too...

20:09 tolstoy: Yeah, I'm not a fan of conflating project level dependencies in my generic shell environment.

20:09 twbray: Tuning concurrent Clojure: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2009/12/08/WF-Tuning-Clojure

20:10 technomancy: twbray: I was hoping for a "On Baked Potatoes 2" post, but that looks interesting too. =)

20:10 tolstoy: twbray: Hah. I was JUST looking at your site to see if you'd posted that yet.

20:11 lghtng: im really enjoying all this stuff on clojure, thanks bunches

20:12 just bought Programming Clojure and am watching the videos, this is all just so fantastic, ive been waiting years for this

20:19 Luyt: Yes, and the best way to learn a new language is to get your feet wet with it.

20:27 patrkris: anybody here capable of answering compojure questions?

20:27 regarding route patterns

20:36 lghtng: i've spent the last couple nights getting emacs eclipse slime, etc all setup

20:37 only problem i had was with netbeans, but i dont really use it anyways, still, it would be nice to have the clojure plugin working

20:39 i have a jar file that runs an application that i use alot, im going to try and use it as a set of libraries to call from emacs in clojure-mode and use emacs instead of the rather featureless ui its running on now, should be a good project to learn from i think

20:40 the socket-agent snippet that was posted to lisppaste caught my eye, so i logged in here hoping to catch the author

20:42 tolstoy: coming from lisp, I wish there was a better error message when I forget to use [ instead of ( for the lambda list. ;)

20:42 But I'm getting used to it!

21:00 hiredman: I didn't change anything and suddenly slime seems to have forgotten how to work

21:02 "Polling /tmp/slime.65055.. (Abort with `M-x slime-abort-connection'.)"

21:02 *no slime*

21:02 the java process is started

21:03 and this persists across emacs restarts

21:05 no hints? advice?

21:05 (no completion joy yet either)

21:07 Chousuke: slime-restart-inferior-lisp usually works for me but... hm.

21:09 hiredman: ah there, it just wanted me to wait five minutes

21:09 cp2: hiredman: how goes your classloader adventures?

21:10 hiredman: I've done nothing all day

21:11 I added some code let me use lowercase symbols, and went test it, and slime wouldn't run, and while I was waiting/working on that I've gone off on other yak shaving adventures

21:11 defn: hmf, havent seen that syntax used in awhile: for i <- 0:15 do

21:12 cp2: mm, sounds a bit like my days...

21:13 hiredman: code from http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TabCompletion seems to be completely useless

21:13 no joy

21:13 defn: have you tried autocomplete?

21:14 hiredman: looks like it completes based on a list of symbols

21:14 I just want to hit tab and have the editor fill in based on words/symbols in open buffers

21:16 defn: technomancy has hippie-expand

21:16 hiredman: no wonder the autocomplete page looks familiar

21:16 I already have it in .emacs.el

21:16 hippie-expand apparently ships with emacs

21:17 defn: yeah i didnt know that

21:17 do you have it set to a hotkey?

21:17 i use it a lot

21:19 hiredman: technomancy has this in his misc.el: ;; Hippie expand; at times perhaps too hip \n (delete 'try-expand-line hippie-expand-try-functions-list) (delete 'try-expand-list hippie-expand-try-functions-list)

21:19 im guessing those cut down on a lot of false garbage you might get since hippie-expand checks all over God's creation for expansion posibilities

21:20 hiredman: I have a few pieces of code from the emacs wiki that claim to set up tab to both use hippieexpand and indent

21:20 defn: that just sounds weird

21:20 hiredman: if you do find a nice expansion setup other than using hippie, id be interested to know about it

21:20 hiredman: wtf

21:20 ok

21:21 somnium: has anyone consolidated all the slime expansions with smart-tab et-all?

21:21 hiredman: now I am getting a weird completion menu thing in elisp buffers, but nothing in clojure buffers

21:22 somnium: Ive got tab in repl, C-tab in clojure mode, and M-/ for hippie

21:23 interferon: once i create a future with (future ....) does it start computing immediately?

21:23 hiredman: I have smart-tab, and it does nothing

21:23 interferon: yes

21:23 interferon: thanks!

21:23 defn: how do you get clojure to auto-indent on RET

21:23 instead of C-j

21:28 interferon: in CL, i can do (cond ((accessor blah)) ..) and then if (accessor blah) is non-nil, the cond evaluates to that variable

21:28 is that impossible with clojure cond?

21:28 somnium: hiredman: smart-tab works for me for most modes, but need to set special bindings for clojure/slime/sime-repl buffers it seems :/

21:28 interferon: (also, do you pronounce it CLOH-zhur or cloh-ZHOOR?)

21:29 hiredman: ,(cond 1 :foo)

21:29 clojurebot: :foo

21:29 lghtng: CLOH-zhur

21:29 hiredman: ,(cond nil :foo)

21:29 clojurebot: nil

21:29 hiredman: ,(cond nil :foo :else 1)

21:29 clojurebot: 1

21:30 arohner: interferon: cond only takes an even number of forms

21:30 cp2: interferon: like 'closure'

21:30 lghtng: ,(find-doc cond)

21:30 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/cond

21:30 cp2: just with a j :)

21:30 interferon: i think i'm pronouncing it more french

21:31 hiredman: ,(doc cond)

21:31 clojurebot: "([& clauses]); Takes a set of test/expr pairs. It evaluates each test one at a time. If a test returns logical true, cond evaluates and returns the value of the corresponding expr and doesn't evaluate any of the other tests or exprs. (cond) returns nil."

21:31 arohner: though you might want to look at condp

21:31 lghtng: that was my next guess

21:31 is clojurebot released anywhere?

21:31 hiredman: clojurebot: where are you?

21:31 clojurebot: http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master

21:32 JAS415: clojurebot: who is your daddy?

21:32 clojurebot: Gabh mo leithscéal?

21:32 JAS415: hmm

21:32 interferon: the combination of git, slime, and clojure is quite comfortable

21:40 lghtng: ,(get-tweets clojure)

21:40 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: get-tweets in this context

21:42 lghtng: ,(hiredman/get-tweets clojure)

21:42 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: hiredman

21:43 lghtng: ,(doc tweet)

21:43 clojurebot: Huh?

21:43 lghtng: ,(find-doc tweet)

21:43 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: tweet in this context

21:43 JAS415: ,(all-ns)

21:43 clojurebot: (#<Namespace clojure.contrib.sql.internal> #<Namespace dk.bestinclass.clojureql.util> #<Namespace clojure.set> #<Namespace hiredman.clojurebot.simplyscala> #<Namespace clojure.contrib.macro-utils> #<Namespace hiredman.sandbox> #<Namespace hiredman.schedule> #<Namespace clojure.contrib.generic> #<Namespace clojure.contrib.shell-out> #<Namespace clojure.contrib.javadoc.browse> #<Namespace hiredman.clojurebot.seenx> #<Namesp

21:45 JAS415: ,(ns-publics hiredman.sandbox)

21:45 clojurebot: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: hiredman.sandbox

21:45 JAS415: ,(ns-publics 'hiredman.sandbox)

21:45 clojurebot: {*bad-forms* #'hiredman.sandbox/*bad-forms*, eval-in-box #'hiredman.sandbox/eval-in-box, eval-in-box-helper #'hiredman.sandbox/eval-in-box-helper, enable-security-manager #'hiredman.sandbox/enable-security-manager, my-doc #'hiredman.sandbox/my-doc, write-test #'hiredman.sandbox/write-test, priv-action #'hiredman.sandbox/priv-action, empty-perms-list #'hiredman.sandbox/empty-perms-list, force-lazy-seq #'hiredman.sandbox/fo

21:46 lghtng: a macro to send stuff to lisppaste

21:46 or a function, rather

21:46 hiredman: clojurebot: paste?

21:46 clojurebot: lisppaste8, url

21:46 lisppaste8: To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.

21:47 JAS415: everyone should have a clojurebot

21:47 it would be cool to integrate it with slime

21:47 hiredman: I do

21:48 (add-hook 'clojure-mode-hook (lambda () (auto-complete-mode t)))

21:48 is that how that is supposed to work?

21:48 lghtng: ,(get-latest-tweets clojurebot clojure #clojure)

21:48 clojurebot: No dispatch macro for: c

21:49 hiredman: lghtng: clojurebot used to, long ago, dump recent clojure tweets into the channel

21:49 lghtng: spammy?

21:49 hiredman: yes

21:49 lghtng: figures

21:49 hiredman: and clojurebot used to tweet clojure commits

21:49 I need to figure out why it stopped sending commits to irc

21:50 (except at start up when it dumps them all)

21:50 lghtng: ,(google clojure into)

21:50 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: google in this context

21:51 hiredman: ~google clojure

21:51 clojurebot: First, out of 53400 results is:

21:51 Clojure - home

21:51 http://clojure.org/

21:51 hiredman: ~def into

21:52 lghtng: ah

21:53 djork: anybody here playing with VisualVM?

21:53 also, tbray's new article is pretty interesting

21:53 has it been discussed here?

21:53 http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2009/12/08/WF-Tuning-Clojure

21:53 lghtng: ,(process-commits)

21:53 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: process-commits in this context

21:54 lghtng: ,(hiredman.sandbox/process-commits)

21:54 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: No such var: hiredman.sandbox/process-commits

21:54 lghtng: i obviously am missing a step here

21:55 ,(var process-commits)

21:55 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: process-commits in this context

21:58 lghtng: clojurebot: What do you mean when you say Unable to resolve var, and how does that relate to First, out of?

22:02 hiredman: lghtng: not user accesable code

22:04 seriously, what do I set to get auto-complete-mode always run for a clojure-mode buffer?

22:04 alexyk: how do I specify heap space like -Xmx2g with lein?

22:09 or, are you supposed to use JAVA_OPTS in the environment?

22:10 * lghtng nods contritely.

22:11 _mst: hiredman: your add-hook line above looks fine to me, so long as you have (require 'clojure-mode) and (require 'auto-complete) somewhere before that

22:13 hiredman: ah

22:13 I don't have the require for clojure-mode

22:16 alexyk: is there a way to limit printing of a large map in repl?

22:17 _mst: ah, actually that might not make a difference. I was worried that loading clojure-mode after your add-hook would clobber the value you were setting, but that doesn't seem to be the case

22:18 alexyk: lein doesn't respect JAVA_OPTS.

22:18 no respect at all, it seems

22:19 hiredman: _mst: it doesn't

22:20 (make a difference)

22:21 somnium: hiredman: what does auto-complete-mode do? it may conflict with key-bindings in clojure mode

22:21 _mst: hm, drat. So when you enter your .clj buffer and auto-complete doesn't work, does M-: (run-hooks 'clojure-mode-hook) throw any errors?

22:22 hiredman: somnium: it works if I just turn in ot

22:22 on

22:22 somnium: hmm

22:22 hiredman: no keybinding, it just pops up a list of possible completions while I type, which is an acceptable substitute for hitting tab (so far)

22:24 run-hooks does turn on ac

22:24 grrr

22:25 alexyk: technomancy: ping

22:27 _mst: annoying. and M-: major-mode RET yields clojure-mode? Does re-evaluating (clojure-mode) from within that buffer enable it too?

22:27 I wonder if the mode is erroring before it runs the hook or something

22:30 hiredman: evaling (clojure-mode) does not turn ac on, and if it is on it turns it off, and re-evaling (clojure-mode) does not renable it

22:31 _mst: hm, so the hook's being evaluated...

22:31 hiredman: is it? if it was wouldn't re-evaling (clojure-mode) again turn ac on?

22:32 _mst: ah sorry, I misunderstood... you mean re-evaling (clojure-mode) toggles clojure-mode on and off but has no effect on ac?

22:33 hiredman: (clojure-mode) turns ac of if ac is on, but has no other effect not matter how many times I re-eval it

22:34 is there a difference between run-mode-hooks and run-hooks?

22:34 run-mode-hooks is how clojure-mode is calling the hook

22:35 doesn't appear to have a revelant difference

22:37 _mst: yeah, it looks like in your case it should just fall through to a regular run-hooks anyway

22:39 hiredman: gah

22:40 it enables paredit-mode if I replace auto-complete-mode in the add-hook

22:40 GAH

22:40 _mst: one of the first things clojure-mode does is a (kill-all-local-variables), which explains why re-evaling that knocks off AC mode again

22:41 hm. if you M-: clojure-mode-hook is there anything else besides your entry?

22:41 hiredman: nope

22:44 if I add the ac hook and the paredit hook, paredit is enabled, ac is not, and I can see both lambdas in clojure-mode-hook

22:44 this must have something to do with ac

22:44 _mst: yeah, it's looking that way... just digging through the .el now

22:44 hiredman: except I don't understand why ac works if I start the mode manually

22:45 M-x auto-complete-mode or M-: (auto-complete-mode t)

22:46 alexyk: how do you write: (map #(% 1) (take 10 reps)) ; in (-> ...) form, left to right?

22:47 hiredman: (->> reps (take 10) (map #(% 1)))

22:47 (-> reps ((partial take 10)) ((partial map #(% 1))))

22:49 hmmm

22:49 _mst: hm, I notice AC defines itself as a global minor mode

22:50 hiredman: looks like maybe you are supposed to add the name of modes you want to use ac in to ac-modes

22:50 _mst: so it defines a predicate which gets handed every buffer you open, and can selectively enable itself for those buffers

22:50 yeah, that :)

22:50 arohner: it appears the definition of my macros aren't changing, after a C-c C-l

22:50 is that expected?

22:51 _mst: so maybe just (add-to-list 'ac-modes 'clojure-mode) and forget about the hook

22:53 hiredman: ahhh

22:53 excellent

22:53 _mst: thanks!

22:54 JAS415: ~lisppaste

22:54 clojurebot: No entiendo

22:54 hiredman: clojurebot: lisppaste is <reply>lisppaste8: url

22:54 clojurebot: c'est bon!

22:54 _mst: no worries. That seemed unnecessarily painful :)

22:54 hiredman: you don't have to tell me that

22:55 _mst: heheh just didn't want to give the impression that emacs always sucks quite that badly ;)

22:55 defn: How do I turn on paredit-mode by default for .clj docs?

22:56 hiredman: (add-hook 'clojure-mode '(lambda () (paredit-mode t)))

22:56 lisppaste8: JAS415 pasted "Why do I suck so badly" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91854

22:56 defn: hiredman: thanks

22:56 JAS415: it runs very... slowly

22:56 hiredman: the lisppaste webserver is down

22:56 JAS415: ah damn

22:57 wait really?

22:57 i just connected to it

22:57 hiredman: gah, now it works for me

22:59 alexyk: hiredman: so ->> does partial for us? are -> and ->> effective enought compared to (f (g (h ... x))) forms?

23:01 arbscht: JAS415: set-sort-fn is not idiomatic. you probably want to use binding on a var, rather than redefining

23:02 JAS415: i'm not sure that it would be visible in all of the threads then?

23:02 maybe 2 bindings

23:02 arbscht: JAS415: then use a ref or possibly even an atom

23:07 JAS415: actually, you can probably parameterize on sort-fn, since you know it before launching your threads

23:08 JAS415: oh, like pass it through all of the layers?

23:09 arbscht: pass it to the new thread, at least, and maybe let it rebind a var

23:10 defprocess could take an arg for sort-fn use binding

23:10 JAS415: oh ok

23:10 arbscht: incidentally, you should probably rename defprocess to make-process or something, since it's not really defining anything at the top level

23:10 JAS415: yeah that is a good call

23:17 hiredman: alexyk: ->> puts the form at the end of the next form

23:18 ,(macroexpand-1 '(->> x (a b c)))

23:18 clojurebot: (a b c x)

23:18 hiredman: ,(macroexpand-1 '(-> x (a b c)))

23:18 clojurebot: (a x b c)

23:18 hiredman: ,(macroexpand-1 '(-> x (map a)))

23:18 clojurebot: (map x a)

23:18 hiredman: :(

23:18 ,(macroexpand-1 '(->> x (map a)))

23:18 clojurebot: (map a x)

23:18 hiredman: :)

23:18 JAS415: I'm not sure that that gets me anywhere with "I killed a 3ghz computer running at 800Mhz with it tonight," however :-/

23:19 not killed but mortally wounded

23:19 hiredman: that is a lot of code the look through

23:20 JAS415: I don't expect you to, its also quite convoluted

23:20 I appreciate the style comments, however

23:28 arohner: a line I just wrote: (alter my-ref update-in [:foo] conj val)

23:28 just figured out how cool it is to chain functions like that

23:28 I feel like I've leveled-up in clojure

23:28 hiredman: :D

23:29 alexyk: hiredman: ->> does it at compile time? i.e. macros are not wasting any efficiency?

23:29 hiredman: alexyk: -> and ->> are both macros

23:29 clojurebot: Barking spiders!

23:29 hiredman: macros are expanded before compilation

23:29 chouser: haha

23:29 hiredman: or durring, or something

23:29 alexyk: hiredman: so the final code is as fast as (f (g ... x))?

23:29 chouser: barking?

23:29 hiredman: yep

23:29 somnium: ,(macroexpand '(->> (range 5) (map inc) (map inc)))

23:29 clojurebot: (map inc (clojure.core/->> (range 5) (map inc)))

23:29 alexyk: cool

23:29 hiredman: (to both of you)

23:30 somnium: I think ->> has become my favorite macro

23:30 alexyk: somnium: is there a "recursive" macroexpand? until no stone is left unturned?

23:31 ->> is Unix's | and F#'s |>

23:31 hiredman: so I have auto-completion, paredit, and highlight-parentheses enabled automatically in emacs-lisp-mode and clojure-mode

23:31 lets not forget about ->

23:31 somnium: yeah, the compiler keeps evaluating until no macros left

23:31 alexyk: hiredman: it needs verbose partial, who needs that?

23:32 hiredman: alexyk: it doesn't always

23:32 chouser: alexyk: that's not quite how the clojure compiler works, but I think there might be something in contrib that would give you a sense of what a recursively macroexpanded form would look like.

23:32 alexyk: somnium: in your example, clojurebot expanded ->> once for the first inc, the second stayed

23:32 hiredman: ,(macroexpand-1 '(-> b (a c)))

23:32 clojurebot: (a b c)

23:32 somnium: ,(use 'clojure.contrib.macro-utils)

23:32 clojurebot: nil

23:32 hiredman: ,(-> {:a 1} (update-in [:a] inc))

23:32 clojurebot: {:a 2}

23:33 somnium: (mexpand-all '(->> (range 5) (map inc) (map dec)))

23:33 ,(mexpand-all '(->> (range 5) (map inc) (map dec)))

23:33 clojurebot: (map dec (map inc (range 5)))

23:33 alexyk: somnium: nice

23:33 chouser: somnium: quick work!

23:33 hiredman: (->> 5 range ...)

23:34 chouser: so that's an approximation of what the clojure compiler does, but it's not exactly the same.

23:34 alexyk: hiredman: I don't quite grasp why update-in doesn't need partial

23:34 technomancy: alexyk: pong

23:34 alexyk: in ->

23:34 somnium: chouser: what does it actually do?

23:34 hiredman: ,(macroexpand-1 '(-> b (a c)))

23:34 clojurebot: (a b c)

23:34 technomancy: would love to see a patch for lein to make it honor $JAVA_OPTS

23:34 hiredman: alexyk: do you see what that does?

23:34 ,(macroexpand-1 '(-> b (update-in [:a] inc)))

23:34 clojurebot: (update-in b [:a] inc)

23:35 alexyk: technomancy: ah! how do I tell lein to gimme -Xmx2g? it seems disrespectful of JAVA_OPTS...

23:35 hiredman:

23:35 alexyk: hiredman: ah, got it. It sticks the arg into the first position after prefix.

23:35 chouser: somnium: it macroexpands the outer form completely, then ...going from probably incomplete memory here... goes through an analysis step of the resulting special form

23:35 alexyk: doc should say that instead of "second position"

23:35 hiredman: alexyk: it is the second position

23:36 (1 2 ...)

23:36 alexyk: hiredman: yeah, it's not clear right away to noobz

23:36 technomancy: hiredman: functions like paredit-mode etc. are toggles, so adding them as bare hooks is not a great idea

23:36 that's why they're often wrapped in lambdas to give them an actual arg

23:36 chouser: somnium: if it's a 'let', it'll build up its understanding of the available locals, for example, or whatever else it needs to do.

23:36 hiredman: technomancy: I know

23:36 technomancy: hiredman: ok, cool

23:36 alexyk: no way to do that right now; it'd need a patch to the bin script

23:36 hiredman: infact I made a lisp-stuff function and added that to the hooks for clojure-mode and emacs-lisp-mode

23:37 DRY

23:37 technomancy: hiredman: yeah, I have a generalized "coding-hook" for stuff like that

23:37 chouser: somnium: then depending on the specific special form may proceed to macroexpand and analyze some of that special forms' args.

23:37 alexyk: technomancy: gah! crap! shock and awe! havoc!

23:37 hiredman: if you set JAVA_OPTS should the java binary just pick that up from the env?

23:37 alexyk: I need -Xmx50g for my data mining things!

23:37 clojurebot: for is not used enough

23:38 somnium: chouser: thanks, my java-fu isnt up to the task of reading Compiler.java yet :/

23:38 alexyk: hiredman: I'm not sure it picks it up

23:38 chouser: somnium: :-)

23:38 technomancy: alexyk: welcome to software that's only been released for two weeks. =)

23:38 chouser: somnium: these are the things I ended up learning when writing ClojureScript.

23:38 alexyk: technomancy: is lein supposed to respect JAVA_OPTS?

23:38 clojurebot: technomancy is to blame for all failures

23:38 JAS415: compiler.java is crazy

23:38 technomancy: clojurebot: watch it. just... watch it.

23:39 alexyk: it's not designed to do that right now, but it would not be hard to add.

23:39 hiredman: man, I already backed clojurebot's noise plugin back from 1/100 to 1/200 today

23:39 technomancy: hiredman: just giving it a hard time. I like it in general. =)

23:39 alexyk: technomancy: lein is a sh script, would JAVA_OPTS go there for repl?

23:40 technomancy: alexyk: yup.

23:40 clojurebot: Gabh mo leithscéal?

23:40 technomancy: alexyk: you'd actually need it in two places (since the repl task is special-cased), but it should be easy to figure out

23:42 * alexyk picks up sh

23:43 hiredman: fyi you can fake linked lists in sh if you ever want to add a lisp interpreter to lien

23:43 lein

23:44 I keep hitting M-:w

23:44 and get the debugger because w is a void-variable

23:44 technomancy: hiredman: I like the cut of your gib

23:44 I suck so much at shell scripting.

23:45 hiredman: I have an interpreter for a stack based language written in sh

23:45 alexyk: hiredman: my sh is zsh. It has hashes, too.

23:45 hiredman: it is *ugly*

23:45 mee: M-:w? That looks like the offspring of vi and emacs

23:45 hiredman: alexyk: yeah, I use zsh too, but sh is more universal

23:45 mee: vimer trying out emacs

23:45 alexyk: hiredman: true

23:45 mee: ah ok :)

23:46 hiredman: it's pure vim really. just and accident that M-: is bound to something in emacs

23:46 alexyk: there's an awesome boatload of clj stuff from mmcgrana on github, is he ever here?

23:46 mee: yeah, I am trying to learn emacs too, since it seems it's far and away the best development environment

23:46 hiredman: mee: meh

23:47 somnium: hiredman: you *might* like ergoemacs if coming from vim, it adds a set of 'ergonomic' bindings for common commands

23:48 mee: I haven't been able to get vimclojure or ccw to work w/o crashing. the netbeans plugin works ok, but I'm not really a fan

23:48 hiredman: somnium: already set in my emacs ways

23:48 arbscht: alexyk: he was last here in june, I think

23:48 somnium: my pinkies never hurt anymore

23:48 hiredman: I use the static part of vimclojure (highlighting basically) and slime.vim

23:49 * alexyk believes textmate is the emacs of the present age

23:49 alexyk: with prettier graphics

23:49 ]

23:49 hiredman: *eye roll*

23:49 * alexyk whistles

23:49 somnium: anti-aliased fonts + slime, what more could you want?

23:50 hiredman: I want rainbow parens

23:50 and more highlighting

23:51 alexyk: IDEA's support of Clojure is not bad either

23:51 somnium: it would be nice if it highlighted user defined funs, im sure it will eventually

23:51 mee: yeah, enclojure works

23:51 hiredman: I can generate a class that loads a constant string, grabs the static out field from the class java.lang.System, and then calls the println method on the PrintStream from the outfield to print the string

23:52 and I kinda got the whole looping thing working, I am just sure how I am going to use this to walk a List

23:53 just not sure

23:53 the println is four instructions

23:54 (.println System/out "foo")

23:54 unless ASM ops are not exactly a 1:1 to bytecode

23:56 somnium: hiredman: are you writing a clojure compiler in clojure?

23:56 hiredman: just a layer over the asm library

23:57 although don't think that hasn't crossed my mind

23:57 somnium: sounds cool

23:57 hiredman: it is, and surprisingly easy (so far)

23:58 the syntax I have right now is kind of similar in form to deftype

23:58 (make-class *name* *direct-super* *interfaces* & *methods-or-fields*)

23:59 somnium: how does the compiler handle let scoping in jvm land?

23:59 alexyk: are there ways to simplify this: (->> {:a {:b [1 2 3]}} (map #(% 1)) (map first) (map #(% 1))) => ([1 2 3])

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