#clojure log - Aug 31 2009

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0:13 Anniepoo: what's the difference between clojure.main and clojure.lang.Repl?

0:24 rlb: Anniepoo: main is for running applications, Repl is for an interactive read-eval-print loop.

0:24 i.e. a prompt

0:26 Anniepoo: Other than that main exits after loading it's cmd line arg scripts and the Repl gives, obviously, the Repl, are there differences?

0:28 realized while doing some work on a project involving Clojure on Google App Engine that I'm slightly fuzzy on this stuff

0:29 rlb: I don't know offhand. I imagine they might set up the environment a bit differently.

0:29 Anniepoo: ok, thanks rlb

0:29 rlb: sure

0:30 hiredman: clojure.main is newer and combines clojure.lang.Repl and Script

0:30 with a few extra doodads

0:31 Anniepoo: ah, thanks

0:50 j-dot: Anniepoo: have you had any specific problems incorporating Clojure in an App Engine project?

0:51 benatkin: Can anyone tell me why (let [+ 3] +) evals to 3, while (let [+ 3] (::+ + 4)) evals to 4, and not 7?

0:52 j-dot: ,::+

0:52 clojurebot: :sandbox/+

0:52 j-dot: the ::+ does not represent the function clojure.core/+

0:53 it represents the keyword :current-ns/+

0:53 Anniepoo: j-dot - no, it's gone amazingly smoothly so far

0:53 mike hinchy's got more expertise doing it, he gave a talk at baclojure on it

0:53 j-dot: Anniepoo: glad to hear :)

0:53 nice

0:53 Anniepoo: but we're doing it, and I'm new to Google App engine, my partner doesn't know Clojure

0:55 hmmm.... I've got slime running in emacs, I think I've got swank in emacs talking properly to swank-server in an external repl, but slime is attempting to evaluate my clojure as lisp

0:55 j-dot: I haven't done much more than play, but I've had good luck so far with this: http://github.com/jmcconnell/appengine-clj/tree/master

0:56 benatkin: j-dot: thanks. I didn't account for the possibility that ::+ wasn't adding. I thought it would have barfed on the number 3 as its first param, though.

0:56 Anniepoo: hey, thanks!!

0:57 j-dot: my pleasure

0:57 Anniepoo: yah, this is amazingly great, it will save us a ton of work

0:57 j-dot: glad to hear!

0:59 benatkin: I haven't looked into it, but I bet that ::+, when applied as a function, is seeing that it can't be applied to the value +, since it's not a map, and is returning the default value 4

0:59 anyway ... off to bed for me

0:59 benatkin: j-dot: g'night. I figured out that keywords just return their default value when you don't use a hash :)

1:15 Anniepoo: I've got slime up and running, apparently, in emacs, but C-x C-e still gives me lisp

1:46 noidi: when defining a map, is it possible to refer to another key's value?

1:47 something like {:r 5, :d (* 2 (% :r))}, where the % would refer to the map itself

1:49 ambient: Anniepoo C-c C-k evaluates the full file for me and C-M-x evaluates expression SLIME/Clojure

1:49 iirc

1:49 Anniepoo: thanks ambient

1:49 ambient: those can be found on the SLIME menu i think

1:49 Anniepoo: I see no menus

1:50 ambient: emacs -nw? use the gui

1:50 Anniepoo: windows native emacs

1:50 it trashes it's menus when I load .emacs

1:50 ambient: well i have that also

1:51 Anniepoo: somehow I'm clobbering them when I get the slime stuff going

1:51 ambient: strange

1:51 Anniepoo: and C-M-x gives me lisp, not clojure, as well

1:52 ambient: well then it's well and borked

1:52 Anniepoo: ok

1:52 that's useful to know, thanks

1:52 ambient: why not just install ClojureBox?

1:53 just set HOME to your user directory so .emacs goes to the right place

1:53 Anniepoo: hmm... I think it's getting the right emacs

1:53 s/emacs/.emacs/

1:54 ambient: i wrote down how I did the whole install thingie http://tommih.blogspot.com/2009/08/emacs-clojure-and-windows.html

1:54 Anniepoo: ah, lovely

1:54 thanks

1:55 I'm afraid to follow it, danlei spent like 5 hours helping me get this set up

1:56 ambient: well it's not that hard, just set some paths, install git, ant, java and clojure-mode and hit GO

1:56 done

1:56 tomoj: damn, 5 hours?

1:56 is your emacs like, totally pimped out?

1:56 Anniepoo: no

1:56 I'm a complete emacs noobie

1:58 does this get slime and swank and such?

1:58 ambient: this has pretty cood "cheat-sheet" for all things emacs & clojure http://lifeofaprogrammergeek.blogspot.com/2009/03/learning-clojure-and-emacs.html

1:58 yes

1:59 but I'd recommend just installing ClojureBox

1:59 http://clojure.bighugh.com/

1:59 just click a button and everything works

1:59 Anniepoo: ok, this looks like it might do it

2:00 I'll save off my .emacs and try it

2:00 danlei will kill me

2:00 ambient: and .emacs.d

2:03 Anniepoo: Pray for my soul

2:04 ambient: you probably had just one line wrong on the .emacs anyway :D

2:04 Anniepoo: oh, it was a long saga

2:04 ambient: it's not that complicated

2:04 ELPA & clojure-install make things extremely simple

2:06 * ambient wishes he had learned emacs way way way... way earlier

2:06 tomoj: apparently clojure-install doesn't work on windows

2:07 ambient: um, it does. I did it twice yesterday, with windows 7 and windows vista, separate machines

2:07 tomoj: maybe depends on which git you have then

2:07 ambient: yes, it does, and also ant, and java

2:07 if you don't have those in the path it will break

2:08 tomoj: if you use cygwin git then it has no chance of working, right?

2:08 I dunno, I'm just speculating, I haven't touched windows in years

2:08 ambient: i have no idea

2:09 you could just probably make a link of the executable and place it in emacs root in the worst scenario

2:11 Anniepoo: I seem to be in a slime repl

2:11 ambient: write (+ 1 1) and (defn foo [x] (+ 1 x)) and stuff to see if it works

2:12 Anniepoo: seems to be

2:12 and I typed in some clojure that isn't valid CLisp to make sure

2:13 ambient: im using mostly REPL myself to learn Clojure

2:13 alt-n and alt-p rewind and forward the previous commands

2:14 Anniepoo: C-M-x isn't producing any visible results

2:15 ambient: it only works when you have file open and click definitioni in that

2:15 in repl you just press the enter key

2:15 Anniepoo: ok, my mistake

2:15 ambient: but yeah, im still myself learning slime and emacs, there are a lot of useful keybindings

2:16 Anniepoo: I opened a file, typed in (+ 1 2) I get 3 in the minibuffer

2:16 LauJensen: Awesome :)

2:16 Anniepoo: but if I change it to a println the output doesn't appear

2:17 ah!

2:17 output is at repl

2:17 8cD

2:17 LauJensen: Anniepoo: You're on SLIME now ?

2:17 ambient: you do know how repl works?

2:17 Anniepoo: I'm snug as a bug in a rug, happy as a clam

2:18 well, I know what a repl is, I've used one befor

2:18 before

2:18 I'm coming off using intellij to write clojure

2:18 (feel like I'm coming off heroin)

2:18 LauJensen: Anniepoo: You're on SLIME now ?

2:18 Anniepoo: I am indeed sliming away

2:19 I'm all slimy

2:19 ambient: i dont even know how to paste into emacs from windows

2:19 i probably should find out

2:20 LauJensen: Alright, then just one word of caution. Printlns and similar outputs to *out* will go into the slime-repl-buffer, except when its coming from a thread, then it will most likely go into the inferior-lisp-buffer, or sometimes, no buffer at all :) Has tripped me up a few times

2:20 C-y = paste

2:20 Anniepoo: ah, good to know

2:20 C-y isn't doing it for me

2:20 LauJensen: (setq x-select-enable-clipboard t)

2:20 Add that to .emacs or eval in ielm

2:20 clojurebot: emacs is best configured for Clojure with instructions at http://technomancy.us/126

2:20 ambient: LauJensen gracias

2:21 LauJensen: np

2:21 ambient: strange though, it didn't work previously

2:23 Anniepoo: any idea where clojure-box will put .emacs?

2:23 ambient: C-x d <enter>

2:23 tomoj: one thing I found pretty cool about slime is that the slime-inspector shows java methods

2:23 ambient: and you're in that directory

2:23 tomoj how?

2:23 tomoj: so if you do C-c I Math <RET>, you see all the methods in java.lang.MAth

2:24 it doesn't know how to look at clojure stuff yet though :/

2:24 ambient: um, clojure stuff works with just tab, right?

2:24 tomoj: well completion

2:24 ambient: C-c I is undefined :/

2:25 tomoj: well, the function is slime-inspect

2:25 guess I got a binding from somewhere

2:25 also C-c C-d d (slime-describe-symbol) is cool

2:25 LauJensen: ambient: C-c I (capital i) ?

2:26 ambient: yes

2:26 Anniepoo: ah, for others interst it's in application data

2:26 LauJensen: Anniepoo: Is Clojurebox using technomancys install-mode ?

2:26 ambient: Anniepoo set HOME environment variable to your home dir

2:26 and then copy .emacs* there

2:27 LauJensen: ambient: C-h b ?

2:27 ambient: perhaps I should revise my clojure installation according to technomancy

2:27 Anniepoo: clojurebox thinks hope is the application data dir

2:29 ambient: LauJensen nvm I was in the wrong buffer

2:29 Anniepoo: ah, lovely.

2:29 fixing my HOME even got my menus back

2:31 ambient: is there any way to get a listing of all working SLIME functionality with clojure?

2:31 some functions seem to be unmapped

2:31 or not working

2:34 back to reading this http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/

2:34 Anniepoo: strange, now it won't let me make a new file

2:35 jdz: it?

2:35 Anniepoo: emacs

2:35 jdz: how are you doing it?

2:35 LauJensen: Anniepoo: Given what reason ?

2:36 Anniepoo: ah, it's just the windows menu is somehow messed up

2:36 ambient: C-x b shows all buffers

2:37 LauJensen: C-x f => find / create files

2:37 ambient: idk what logic the buffers menu uses, but it often seems to be missing some entries

2:37 jdz: * C-x C-f

2:37 Anniepoo: C-x C-f threw me into some weird non GUI file browser in a buffer at one point

2:37 and the actual windows file->new menu is borked

2:37 jdz: that's what you want most of the time

2:38 who'd want to browse through tons of folders by pointy-clicking when you can easily find what you want with tab-completion?

2:38 Anniepoo: yah, but I couldn't figure out how to make a new file in that

2:39 LauJensen: jdz: and besides, ido-find-file, you just type boostrap.clj, and it'll find the file for you, no matter where its hiding :)

2:39 ambient: bootstrap.clj?

2:39 jdz: Anniepoo: you just type the path, and the file will be created when you save it.

2:40 Anniepoo: type the path in find-file query

2:40 LauJensen: Just at example. Ido keeps a history of your files, so you never have to type the fullpath, just the name or part of the name

2:40 Anniepoo: yah, just their attempt to add 'real' windows menus is borked

2:40 ambient: oh ok

2:40 Anniepoo: ah, lovely,

2:40 swimming in info, but there's something called ido?

2:41 cause file browsing is pretty absurd

2:41 ambient: M-x ido- <tab>

2:41 M-x is pretty sweet with tab completion

2:43 LauJensen: Anniepoo: I believe that if you (require 'git-emacs) in your .emacs, it will automatically give you git integration AND ido. So that C-x f from now on will complete paths for you. just type "core" for instance, and way a sec, it would find "/foo/bar/core.clj" if you've previously accessed it

2:43 jdz: again, it's C-x C-f

2:44 Anniepoo: I seem to have ido

2:44 M-x ido- tab gives me a buffer with a bunch of commands

2:44 so what's this thing do?

2:44 LauJensen: You have it, but its not bound and loaded

2:44 I gotta jet, be back l8r

2:44 Anniepoo: thanks for the help

2:45 jdz: Anniepoo: most probably you'll want to bind C-x C-f from plain find-file to ido-find-file in your .emacs

2:45 Anniepoo: foo, lost paredit

2:47 and am getting smart indent 8cP

2:48 well, thanks all

2:49 have beaten myself enuf 4 2nite

3:34 cark: http://java.ociweb.com/mark/stm/article.html

4:01 ambient: how do i trigger time-based events in clojure?

4:01 i have a stack that has different time stamps sorted in chronological order, pop takes the first one

4:02 and according to time, i have to trigger those events but i dont want to write a busy loop

4:02 tomoj: what other possibility could there be?

4:02 ambient: eg. callbacks

4:03 because the next time is always known when the event triggers

4:03 tomoj: but someone has to call a callback

4:03 ambient: busy loops are so ugly :(

4:03 oh well...

4:04 tomoj: isn't pretty much everything running on your computer a busy loop?

4:04 ambient: in theory there has to be only one busy loop

4:04 jdz: threads are used for this usually,

4:05 hiredman: ambient: there are all kinds of cool stuff in executors

4:05 tomoj: yeah, mabye I dunno what a "busy loop" is

4:05 ambient: while 1: do stuff until break

4:06 s/1/true

4:06 hiredman: http://gist.github.com/178350

4:06 tomoj: oh, I thought you meant spawn a thread that checks if the task's time has come and then sleeps for a bit

4:06 ambient: hiredman nice, thanks

4:06 tomoj well i could do that also, then the loop would be in that thread

4:07 tomoj: yeah

4:08 hiredman: (sched/fixedrate {:task #(dump-dict-is config) :start-delay 1 :rate 10 :unit (:minu

4:08 er

4:09 ambient: although if i know the time difference i can just call (Thread/sleep time-delta)

4:09 heureka

4:09 hiredman: (sched/fixedrate {:task #(dump-dict-is config) :start-delay 1 :rate 10 :unit (:minutes sched/unit)})

4:09 ambient: the rate is not fixed

4:09 tomoj: ambient: do people in your locale say "heureka" or do you just know greek?

4:10 everyone around here says just "eureka"

4:10 ambient: it just felt right

4:10 no, people in my locale dont speak greek

4:11 tomoj: I thought maybe in other places "heureka" is just the word they use

4:11 which would be awesome

4:11 ambient: well i think it is so

4:12 http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heureka

4:18 eevar2: ambient: java.util.Timer & java.util.TimerTask?

4:18 hiredman: :(

4:18 Fossi: german, finish and polish seem to be those that keep the h

4:19 hiredman: the scheduling stuff from the executors framework is much better than Timer

4:19 tomoj: I'm guessing in english we lost all the h's that didn't come through latin

4:20 eevar2: though the stuff in java.util.concurrent is probably better, yes

4:44 triyo: I see the apply and reduce functions can perform the same action cases I have tried. """(apply + [1 2 3])) -> 6 AND (reduce + [1 2 3])) -> 6""" What is the major difference between the two?

4:47 tomoj: (apply + [1 2 3]) means (+ 1 2 3)

4:47 (reduce + [1 2 3]) is like (+ (+ 1 2) 3)

4:48 they happen to be the same for + but won't be the same for most functions

4:48 triyo: tomoj: thanks. I see though that apply wouldn't always return the same result as reduce of course...make sense now reading the doc string

4:49 tomoj: in most of the places I use reduce, apply would cause an error

4:49 (most functions don't take an arbitrary number of arguments)

4:50 jdz: arbitrary number, which can also be infinity :)

4:50 tomoj: I think reduce is faster with +

4:52 and it works better with lazy seqs, I believe

4:52 jdz: better how?

4:52 tomoj: (apply + (range 10000000)) blows my heap, but (reduce + (range 10000000)) works fine

4:52 reduce doesn't need the whole seq at once, apply does

4:53 jdz: i remember apply not needing the whole sequence at once...

4:53 might be some specific cases

4:53 oh, right

4:53 tomoj: how could it not? it has to pass the whole seq as arguments to a function

4:53 jdz: in case a function has a &rest parameter

4:53 tomoj: ah, yeah

5:04 yup, true

5:04 that's pretty neat

5:06 (apply + ..) only seems to be slower than (reduce + ..) if you're not holding the head

5:12 but in that case I'm seeing a 35% speedup

5:16 LauJensen: Any nginx experts here?

5:17 nginxperts? :)

5:17 tomoj: I've used it.. wouldn't say I'm an expert

5:18 LauJensen: I'm using it to proxy all requests to port 80 to my jetty server on another port. The problem is my logging in Jetty shows all users to come from 127.0.0.1 - how do I get around this?

5:19 tomoj: you've just got "proxy_pass ..."?

5:19 eevar2: LauJensen: http://forum.nginx.org/read.php?2,4805,4809

5:20 tomoj: indeed

5:20 LauJensen: tomoj: yea

5:20 eevar2: the proxy_set_header bits in particular

5:20 tomoj: I think the block here should be enough http://wiki.nginx.org/NginxHttpProxyModule

5:20 LauJensen: oh yea, great if that works

5:20 fantastic

5:21 Clojure community never ceases to amaze me with its versatility :)

5:21 tomoj: I still don't really understand deploying jetty stuff :(

5:23 LauJensen: What dont you understand?

5:25 tomoj: in the ruby world there's no threading really

5:25 so you have nginx proxy to a cluster of processes

5:25 but I'm thinking maybe you only need one jetty instance on each box?

5:26 never did any java web stuff so servlets and all are new to me

5:26 eevar2: one jetty instance should do, yes

5:31 LauJensen: Jetty can listen of a given port using run-server. It takes an argument of a servlet and each servlet handles various routes, ie "/" "/foo" "/favicon.ico" and so on. I recommend loading your namespaces from a central boot.clj, which then opens your sites/servlets on various ports.

5:31 (I'm speaking of Compojures approach)

5:32 eevar2: anyone had a look at nginx built-in caching support?

5:32 LauJensen: no - but I've just tested, and that snippit puts another field in the header, so now I'm logging all IPs :)

5:33 mysql> select remote from traffic;

5:33 +----------------+

5:33 | remote |

5:33 +----------------+

5:33 | 90.185.128.253 |

5:33 | 90.185.128.253 |

5:33 ...

5:33 ambient: wouldnt it be a good idea to build a sql frontend for mysql too in clojure?

5:33 eevar2: which headers did you have to set? x-real-ip, x-forwarded-for, or both?

5:34 and host?

5:35 LauJensen: ambient: You mean like ClojureQL ?

5:35 ambient: oh man, this concurrency thing is giving me a headache

5:35 LauJensen: eevar, just x-real-ip

5:35 eevar2: oki

5:35 LauJensen: ~clojureql

5:35 clojurebot: clojureql is http://gitorious.org/clojureql

5:35 ambient: LauJensen oh, you've already done so :)

5:36 LauJensen: Yes sir, its also what I use for logging traffic on my site, like http://groups.google.com/group/compojure/browse_thread/thread/2f1729608be2b072

5:36 I was looking for some feedback on it. Am I logging the right stuff? To much, to little?

5:37 ambient: set different log levels and you can switch on/off when you feel like it *shrug*

5:38 LauJensen: I already have that, but its rolled in a debug macro, which goes quote verbose when its on

5:39 something like

5:39 (debug "launching thread" "launched" (send-off 0 (myfunc)))

5:39 TIMESTAMP: Launching thread

5:39 TIMESTAMP: launched

5:39 TIMESTAMP: Theads own debugging...

5:42 tomoj: what's (send-off 0 ...) ?

5:42 eevar2: LauJensen: I think most existing logging libraries do buffered, asynchronous, logging, btw

5:43 committing every entry to the db might add some overhead

5:43 LauJensen: eevar, its a good idea to do it async, each transaction runs at ~10 msecs. I'm mostly interested in the data I'm trapping right now. Is it enough for doing statistics later on, or should I get more ?

5:45 Hmm, the buffer is a good idea. I should cluster about 500 rows together before committing, having an agent which checks regularily.

5:45 Calling mysql 10 times per visitor can quickly flood the cpu

5:46 eevar2: i'd just leave it to the web server tbh. ;)

5:46 LauJensen: nginx supports dropping logs in mysql ?

5:46 eevar2: you could always import them later

5:47 if you ever add caching, some requests won't actually hit the app server either

6:01 tomoj: has anyone tried decreasing the wait times in ants.clj? seems to screw things up

6:02 LauJensen: Way back when, yea I think so. Dont remember anything breaking though

6:04 tomoj: I guess 10ms for the ant sleep time just leaves no time to do the animation

6:04 so the animation locks up

6:22 juhal: apparently clojure compiles and loads a new class every time I call eval

6:22 sigh

6:23 jdz: why would you call eval?

6:23 juhal: because I need to evaluate clojure expressions

6:23 jdz: are you sure?

6:24 i mean, are they user-supplied and you have no control over them whatsoever?

6:24 juhal: yes

6:25 jdz: and what's bad about the compilation, then?

6:25 juhal: well the expressions don't change so recompiling them every time doesn't make sense

6:26 jdz: then don't

6:26 if the expressions don't change, why are you calling eval on them more than once?

6:27 juhal: because I need their side-effects

6:30 jdz: if nobody more knowledgeable than me offers something else, you can wrap your expressions so that eval returns function, which you can then call when you want

6:31 juhal: hmm that sounds like it could work, thanks

6:36 jdz: but anyway blingly executing random code is not a very good thing to do...

6:37 Chousuke: The mention of both side-effects AND eval makes me highly suspicious, but I have no idea what you're trying to do :/

6:50 tomoj: hrmm.. clojure-http-client currently gives you the headers with keys being header names

6:50 but header names are supposed to be case-insensitive

6:51 I can't think of a good way to fix this

6:51 you could provide a function for looking up headers in the header map in a case-insensitive way, but this isn't as pretty as just using the headers as a map

6:51 would be nice if the headers map had symbols as keys with the header names downcased, but that's not backwards compatible

6:52 in ruby I would just monkeypatch the header map to downcase keys before looking them up :(

6:57 s/symbols/keywords/

7:18 AWizzArd: Is it possible to have a regex which splits a string at the empty string following the regex [,;]? So, like splitting on , or ; but without consuming those chars?

7:20 jdz: regular expressions will create more trouble than they solve

7:39 cgrand: AWizzArd: #"(?=[,;])"

8:28 AWizzArd: cgrand: works, thanks

8:38 LauJensen: ,(sort > (vals {:foo 5 :bar 2 :baz 10}))

8:38 clojurebot: (10 5 2)

8:38 LauJensen: Whats a pretty way to flip that back to the keys, so I get (:baz :foo :bar) ?

8:41 Chouser: ,(map key (sort-by val > {:foo 5 :bar 2 :baz 10}))

8:41 clojurebot: (:baz :foo :bar)

8:42 LauJensen: (sort-by val) thats a new one. Thanks alot

8:45 tomoj: never realized how useful it is that maps act as seqs of mapentries

8:50 LauJensen: Rich has a few good ideas like that :)

8:51 tomoj: goddamn't

8:52 my university was like "oh hey looks like tom finished writing a scraper for the course schedule, let's change all the markup around!"

8:53 LauJensen: Yea being an IT admin has its perks :)

8:54 jdz: tomoj: you should instead wrote a program that writes course schedule scrapers :)

8:55 tomoj: jdz: that's be a good idea, but the data's not stable so I don't see how I could do it easily

8:56 jdz: what do you mean data is not stable?

8:56 and it's not about being easy to do, but doing it once :)

8:56 Fossi: *couhg* xls *couhg* ? ;)

8:56 tomoj: but I mean, every time the markup changes, I need to have the program write a new scraper

8:57 but by that time the expected data is all different

8:57 jdz: oh boy oh boy

8:57 Fossi: wow. not that i can't type, but i can't type twice as much today :)

8:57 jdz: have you ever heard of machine learning thingie?

8:57 tomoj: yeah but I don't have target data to train on

8:57 jdz: then generate it

8:58 tomoj: I mean I could go visit the site and manually scrape the data into some reasonable format

8:58 I guess doing that is easier than rewriting the scraper every time the markup changes

8:58 jdz: not to mention all the things you learn along the way

8:59 tomoj: something like scrubyt, you say what the data should be and it figures out how to scrape it

8:59 jdz: oh, look, somebody has written the program for you! :)

8:59 tomoj: (or tries to)

9:00 that one doesn't work for me though :/

9:00 first of all it's in ruby, not clojure

9:01 and second there are some special relationships my scraper-writing program would need to understand which scrubyt doesn't

9:01 LauJensen: tomoj: Are you using enlive ?

9:01 tomoj: LauJensen: yep

9:01 LauJensen: k, isnt it a simple change to adapt it ?

9:01 tomoj: this time it is, I think

9:02 but in general it won't be

9:02 the markup on the site I'm scraping is really bad

9:02 LauJensen: oh

9:03 tomoj: so like in one table cell they have "MW<br/>F" and later in the row something like "2pm to 3pm<br/>10am to 11am"

9:03 and that means the class starts at 2pm on monday and wednesday but 10am on friday

9:04 stuff that enlive can't do on its own, so I have to have logic after pulling stuff out with enlive, and that logic could be painful to change

9:04 they're government workers though so since they just made a change it'll probably be a long time until the next change :)

9:06 LauJensen: tomoj: File a feature request, I'm sure cgrand has a one-liner which both scrapes the website and gets the goverment workers fired.

9:06 tomoj: haha

9:07 I actually work here too but not in the department that does this stuff.. wish I could convince them to just put it up as XML or JSON

9:07 actually they must have some internal machine-readable representation because counselors get the data in a different interface.. hmm

9:09 LauJensen: hehe, now you're thinking

9:11 Chouser: in my experience, constantly fixing a fragile web scraper is often more reliable and less work than getting access to the machine-readable format internal to the organization.

9:14 tomoj: yeah, I don't think they'd let me at that anyway

9:14 I'm not sure they'd even let me scrape it if they knew I was doing it

9:23 rabidsnail: Is there a clojure equivalent to Python's locals() function?

9:24 jdz: what does it do?

9:24 rabidsnail: It gives you a map of all of all of the variables in the current context.

9:25 jdz: current context?

9:25 rabidsnail: current scope

9:26 jdz: i'm pretty sure there is no such function

9:26 because you can see all them variables by looking at the source code

9:26 the don't magically appear while the program is running

9:26 Chouser: not really -- you might be able to use the JVM debugging api to get at some of that, but I'm not sure.

9:26 rabidsnail: bother

9:27 jdz: *they

9:28 rabidsnail: Django uses it to stick all of the local varaibles in error pages when debug mode is on, for example

9:28 It's very useful

9:28 jdz: then what Chouser said

9:41 gko: Is there an operator to return from a function, like Common Lisp (return ...) or (return-from ...) ?

9:42 ole3: no

9:42 gko: no

9:46 triyo: I am trying to understand the difference between defining metadata for an object using #^{} and with-meta. If I use the former, (println (meta myfunc)) prints nil. However if I define the metada using with-meta then it print the metada of the object.

9:46 Chousuke: triyo: #^{:foo 'bar} assigns metadata to the *symbol* at read-time.

9:47 triyo: with-meta assigns it to whatever object you pass to it.

9:48 Chouser: just to keep things confusing, the compiler or various macros often copy metadata from a symbol to some useful runtime object.

9:48 did I say confusing? I meant convenient.

9:48 ,(meta #^{:foo 'bar} [])

9:48 clojurebot: {:foo bar}

9:49 Chouser: ,(let [my-vec []] (meta #^{:foo 'bar} my-vec))

9:49 clojurebot: nil

9:49 Chousuke: ,(meta #^{:bar 'foo} foo) ; fail

9:49 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context

9:49 Chousuke: ,(meta '#^{:bar 'foo} foo) ; no fail

9:49 clojurebot: {:bar (quote foo)}

9:49 Chousuke: note the location of the quote

9:50 ,(meta '#^{:bar foo} foo)

9:50 clojurebot: {:bar foo}

9:50 triyo: is the attr-map #^{} meant to do the same as with-meta?

9:51 Chousuke: no.

9:51 as said, with-meta happens at runtime. #^{} is read-time

9:52 and as such, #^{} is only useful for whatever the compiler can read.

9:52 eg. vectors, lists, symbols, maps, etc.

9:52 er, s/compiler/reader/

9:58 triyo: Chousuke: oh I see. you need to quote the attr-map

10:07 jdz: hmm, that '#^{metadata here} symbol-name looks very very confusing...

10:07 had to think about it like for 5 minutes until i understood what's going on...

10:09 Chousuke: triyo: no, it's actually quoting the symbol

10:09 triyo: the attr-map disappears after read-time

10:09 ,(macroexpand '#^{:foo bar} test)

10:09 clojurebot: test

10:09 triyo: Chousuke: got it now, I perfectly understand it. thx

10:10 jdz: ye, there usually is no space between quote and the symbol :/

10:10 Chousuke: yeah, it's a bit weird.

10:10 You need it with macros too, if you want to produce type-hinted code.

10:10 jdz: haven't had a need for those yet

10:10 Chousuke: at least, sometimes

10:11 jdz: but now i'll be better equipped

10:11 Chousuke: I wonder if I'm done toying with my chroots now.

10:11 I unstalled Debian stable AND unstable on my serverbox :P

10:11 jdz: maybe writing '#^{meta data}whatever may help some. maybe not.

10:12 ankou: hi, anybody using slime here? If it try to use M-.(slime-edit-definition) on a function I get a NullPointerException

10:12 jdz: unstalling is like installing and uninstalling, all at once? :)

10:12 Chousuke: heh

10:13 I needed some newer software from unstable but didn't feel like keeping them up-to-date myself.

10:13 ankou: *but only with my own functions

10:13 Chousuke: so, I installed schroot and debootstrap'd myself a sid environment :P

10:13 and now I have a sid-shell alias that takes me to it

10:38 AWizzArd: Is there a simple way to do comp, but give the functions in reverse order, to match -> and the thinking? So, maybe a function pipe?

10:38 stuartsierra: Somebody wrote such a thing and posted it on the list, I think.

10:41 Maybe this is it: http://www.mail-archive.com/clojure@googlegroups.com/msg08098.html

10:42 Although (apply comp (reverse fns)) ought to work as well.

10:42 gko: ole3: OK

10:46 stuartsierra: Or just use -> in a #()

10:52 AWizzArd: Maybe I am one of the few who uses this regularily

10:56 I have my own pipe function (not macro), which does essantially forward the evaluation to comp. But I find this could go into core. Users of comp will think first what should be done first, navigate with arrow keys back, then write down what comes next, use arrow keys again, and so on.

10:56 Pretty much like the ->

10:59 Chouser: Rich has talked about adding a -> that puts the args on the right end instead of the left.

10:59 I think the hold up so far has been the name

11:00 stuartsierra: I find I use -> and comp less than I expect.

11:01 I started working on a Clojure package manager this weekend.

11:03 But then I wondered - how many Clojure "packages" are ready for a formal "release"?

11:05 AWizzArd: Chouser: is that a new operator which turns around the args or will the existing -> require the reverse order?

11:06 It's just that comp doesn't match the way of thinking about it.

11:29 Chouser: is it possible to get the number of matches of a regexp and use it for substitution? For example, I want to replace all digits between 1-9 with a 9, but only for at least 2 subsequent digits.

11:30 When I do (.replaceAll s "[1-9]([1-9]+)" "9$1") it does not replace each digit

11:30 ,(.replaceAll "Hello 1 and 2340" "[1-9]([1-9]+)" "9$1")

11:30 clojurebot: "Hello 1 and 9340"

11:30 stuartsierra: You could try c.c.str-utils2/replace with a function as the replacement.

11:31 AWizzArd: ,(.replaceAll "Hello 1 and 2340" "[1-9]([1-9])+" "9$1")

11:31 clojurebot: "Hello 1 and 940"

11:38 Chouser: AWizzArd: -> would not change

11:40 AWizzArd: Chouser: good

11:40 ,(.replaceAll "Hello 1 and 2340" "[1-9](?=[1-9])+" "9$1")

11:40 clojurebot: java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException: No group 1

11:40 AWizzArd: ,(.replaceAll "Hello 1 and 2340" "[1-9](?=[1-9])+" "9")

11:40 clojurebot: "Hello 1 and 9940"

11:40 AWizzArd: ,(.replaceAll "Hello 1 and 2340" "[1-9](?=[1-9])" "9")

11:40 clojurebot: "Hello 1 and 9940"

11:41 Chouser: is that the output you want?

11:43 AWizzArd: no, I hoped for "Hello 1 and 9999"

11:44 no, I hoped for "Hello 1 and 9990"

11:44 all digits between 1-9 shuold be replaced by a 9, if there are least 2 subsequent digits

11:45 but zeros inbetween may be a problem

11:47 Chouser: ,(.replaceAll "Hello 1 and 2340" "[1-9](?=[0-9][0-9])" "9")

11:47 clojurebot: "Hello 1 and 9940"

11:48 tomoj: I don't get it.. there aren't two subsequent digits after the 4 in 2340

11:48 Chouser: ,(.replaceAll "Hello 1 and 2340" "[1-9](?=[0-9])" "9")

11:48 clojurebot: "Hello 1 and 9990"

11:49 LauJensen: Gents, Im doing a webstat module and for this I need some webservice that I can post IPs to and in return I want information on names, adresses etc. Anyone of you know of such a service available freely?

11:49 AWizzArd: ,(.replaceAll "Hello 15 and 4 and 0123/1234567890" "[1-9](?=[0-9])" "9")

11:49 clojurebot: "Hello 95 and 4 and 0993/9999999990"

11:49 AWizzArd: ,(.replaceAll "Hello 15 and 4 and 0123/1234567890" "[1-9](?=[0-9][0-9])" "9")

11:49 clojurebot: "Hello 15 and 4 and 0923/9999999990"

11:50 AWizzArd: there it doesn't catch the 5 of the 15

11:50 tomoj: why would it? you're looking for two subsequent digits

11:50 AWizzArd: yes

11:50 tomoj: the 5 has none and the 1 has one

11:51 Chousuke: you want to ignore non-digits for the look-ahead?

11:51 AWizzArd: "Hello 15 and 4 and 0123/1234567890" ==> "Hello 99 and 4 and 0999/9999999990"

11:52 tomoj: so.. one subsequent digit?

11:52 AWizzArd: as soon there are two ore more subsequent digits replace in that sequence all 1-9 with a 9

11:52 tomoj: ok, two consecutive digits, I see

11:52 AWizzArd: oh ok, consecutive is the right word, thanks

11:53 tomoj: subsequent probably works too I just thought you meant something else

11:53 AWizzArd: but maybe this should really be a function

11:54 Chousuke: can't you do [1-9]{2,} or something?

11:54 AWizzArd: i think it would then replace 12345 with 9

11:54 tomoj: problem is you don't know how many 9's to replace it with

11:54 AWizzArd: and not with 99999

11:54 tomoj: right

11:55 if there is just a single digit, not followed by a digit it can stay unchanged

11:55 like the 4

11:55 tomoj: you could search for a substring of two or more digits, get that match, then just regular .replace that substring with a string of 9's of equal length, and repeat until there are no more substrings of two or more digits

11:57 kwatz: ,(.replaceAll "Hello 15 and 4 and 0123/1234567890" "(?<=[0-9])[1-9]|[1-9](?=[0-9])" "9")

11:57 clojurebot: "Hello 99 and 4 and 0999/9999999990"

11:58 kwatz: though using lookahead or lookbehind usually feels wrong to me

12:01 stuartsierra: c.c.str-utils2/replace!

12:03 AWizzArd: kwatz: oh good, that works! stuartsierra: I am already looking at its source.

12:03 tomoj: oh, my idea obviously doesn't work

12:03 AWizzArd: tomoj: why not?

12:03 tomoj: because 99 is also a substring of two consecutive digits

12:03 so it just loops forever

12:04 AWizzArd: ,(.replaceAll "Hello 15 and 4 and 0123/1234567890" "(?<=\\d)[1-9]|[1-9](?=\\d)" "9")

12:04 clojurebot: "Hello 99 and 4 and 0999/9999999990"

12:04 AWizzArd: kwatz: why it feels wrong to you?

12:05 tomoj: to get my idea to work you'd have to replace the digits with nondigits and build up a list of indices to replace with 9's afterwards.. very ugly

12:06 kwatz: sometimes they can be hard to reason out, and it's logic that may deserve to be in a function

12:06 mostly a personal preference, i supose

12:08 suppose*

12:17 lisppaste8: cgrand pasted "transients VS tail-call position" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86304

12:18 milep: Hello, when extending abstract java class with proxy, can I override the constructor?

12:19 stuartsierra: milep: no

12:19 milep: I'm trying to implement pircbot example from http://www.jibble.org/pircbot.php

12:20 stuartsierra: ok, any tips how to do MyBot.java from that page ^

12:20 setName is protected

12:20 stuartsierra: milep: You can pass arguments to the superclass constructor.

12:21 Then you'll have to use gen-class to expose the protected methods, I think.

12:22 cgrand: rhickey: OoM is an unpleasant side-effect of adding transients to a working fn (see http://paste.lisp.org/display/86304 )

12:22 milep: stuartsierra: ok, thanks for the tips, have to study more about that...

12:25 Chouser: reify can call protected methods, right?

12:25 stuartsierra: What's reify?

12:26 cgrand: new new new name

12:26 stuartsierra: Ha!

12:47 pluijzer: bin searching a while now, but is there a alternative for lisp's "position" in clojure?

12:52 stuartsierra: c.c.seq-utils has "positions" which is similar

12:52 pluijzer: thanks

12:56 LauJensen: Gents, Im doing a webstat module and for this I need some webservice that I can post IPs to and in return I want information on names, adresses etc. Anyone of you know of such a service available freely?

12:57 stuartsierra: whois?

12:57 LauJensen: Something like that

12:58 stuartsierra: Why not just use whois?

13:00 LauJensen: Hmm :)

13:00 I think I will, thanks

13:32 whois is slow, changing to buffered multithreaded webstatic strategy

13:32 stuartsierra: true, that

13:35 LauJensen: Its just the incentive I needed - Flushing webstats straight into sql with every call to the site was a bit too much

13:45 alinp: ,(reduce + (range 0 9999999))

13:45 clojurebot: 49999985000001

13:45 alinp: ,(time (reduce + (range 0 9999999)))

13:45 clojurebot: 49999985000001

13:45 "Elapsed time: 3382.242 msecs"

13:46 alinp: ,*clojure-version*

13:46 clojurebot: {:interim true, :major 1, :minor 1, :incremental 0, :qualifier "alpha"}

13:49 alinp: ,(System/getProperty "java.vm.version")

13:49 clojurebot: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.util.PropertyPermission java.vm.version read)

14:01 LauJensen: bestinclass.webstats> (country? "213.232.195.196")

14:01 "RU"

14:01 Should I be worried? :)

14:19 rhickey: Chouser: not sure yet about reify and protected - what did you want to call?

14:19 hiredman: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/7538a136a39cce48?hl=en <--

14:19 er

14:19 "Qi in Clojure (Shen) project underway"

14:20 doesn't actually look all that underway

14:23 stuartsierra: Most Clojure projects are not all that underway. (this morning's blog post http://bit.ly/1Va0o0 )

14:25 LauJensen: rhickey: Are you still considering names for new new ?

14:26 rhickey: LauJensen: have you got one?

14:27 LauJensen: rhickey: Nope - But if its still open, we could have a rumble right here. You could say in as few words as possible what it does or what the name should express and we could all have a go :)

14:28 rhickey: The name should be able to express everything that 'refiy' does and somehow be better than reify

14:28 reify

14:28 LauJensen: hehe, alright

14:29 And just using 'extend' would be totally wrong?

14:29 rhickey: Java distinguishes extend and implement, this would normally be used for the latter

14:30 LauJensen: Alright, it might be my english thats failing me, but leaving Java behind new new still has the feeling of extending a class to me

14:31 rhickey: except it isn't a class but an interface, normally

14:31 extend means add something to, implement means provide a definition for

14:34 ataggart: does anyone know of some clojure-to-JMS code?

14:36 rhickey: ataggart: using thre JMS API directly is pretty easy - what are you looking for?

14:37 LauJensen: rhickey: alright, I'll think and read my dictionary

14:37 In the mean time, why does the doc for send say "dispatch and agent", and send-off "dispatch a potentially blocking agent" ?

14:37 "dispatch and agent" = "dispatch AN agent"

14:40 ataggart: rhickey: nothing fancy, I just need to write a jms topic subscriber, figured I'd do it in clojure, and just wanted to see if there was some lib that would make it more idiomatic.

14:41 LauJensen: I mean - Arent both qualified for use with a blocking action?

14:41 rhickey: ataggart: wrapping queues is on my todo list, so I'm interested in use cases

14:41 LauJensen: no

14:42 ataggart: rhickey: I'll write bang this out, and send you anything I find useful.

14:42 rhickey: the send pool is fixed size, you could exhaust it with blocking actions

14:42 ataggart: what queue are you using?

14:42 ataggart: I believe we have an activemq instance running

14:43 rhickey: I want to check out HornetQ when I have some time

14:43 I'm particularly interested in a model that scales from an in-process, direct embedded instance to full client-server

14:43 ataggart: I haven't done any work with jms before, so I'm not clear on how much of a "drop in" different implementations are

14:44 duncanm: anyone familiar with StAX/XMLEventWriter?

14:44 is there a way to force <foo></foo> be written as <foo />

14:44 ?

14:47 LauJensen: Concurrent gentlemen, I have a website which generates an sql statement everytime somebody navigates the site. Every 5 minutes I'll commit all of these statements to the sql-server. Is this a good way to ensure not flushing an uncomitted entry from my buffer ref: (let [sql-statements @*sql-buffer*] (dosync (ref-set! *sql-buffer* []))... ?

14:50 hiredman: well, for starters ref-set doesn't have an exclamation mark

14:51 LauJensen: alright, scrap that then :) its just the approach

14:52 hiredman: hmmm

14:53 Chouser: rhickey: I was wonder aloud about protected on behalf of someone trying to use http://www.jibble.org/javadocs/pircbot/

14:53 LauJensen: technically the question must be, can an entry slip in, between the let-definition and the dosync. Which I actually think it can

14:53 hiredman: Chouser: for nick setting?

14:54 Chouser: in general, java interop sometimes requires overriding protected methods, and gen-class is a bit painful.

14:55 I'm fully on board with reify being a native clojure rather than host interop feature, as long as we get something as pleasant to use as proxy with greater capability for interop.

14:56 I'd be ok with proxy growing :exposes and :exposes-methods features

14:57 hiredman: http://paste.lisp.org/display/83651

14:59 * rhickey hates protected

14:59 stuartsierra: me too

14:59 cemerick: rhickey: I did a little spelunking and some thinking, and I'm curious as to what you have in mind w.r.t. isa? caching that doesn't run up against the same issues a WeakHashMap memoization of supers is intended to solve (e.g. class unloading).

15:00 Chouser: hiredman: that was the kind of thing going around when rhickey put in super-proxy

15:00 cemerick: I actually think the current caching in MultiFn is a bit of a time-bomb w.r.t. retaining otherwise-unloaded Classes.

15:02 hiredman: Chouser: I was previously just seting clojurebot's nick after it connected, but now I am using that to access the protected setName method

15:02 LauJensen: Nobodys got a take on how to flush a global ref ?

15:02 Chouser: hiredman: heh. nice.

15:02 rhickey: cemerick: I'm not sure class unloading is a solved problem in general

15:02 but specifically to use of WeakHashMap as a cache, what are you doing for concurrency?

15:03 stuartsierra: LauJensen: I think you want to put your SQL code inside the dosync

15:03 no, wait, that's wrong

15:03 hiredman: stuartsierra: :(

15:03 stuartsierra: sorry

15:04 cemerick: rhickey: nothing -- no entries should roll off the map, as long as the caller of isa?/supers is using that class (or an ancestor of it) as an argument

15:05 LauJensen: stuartsierra: ClojureQL prohibits sql transactions within dosyncs

15:05 hiredman: good

15:05 cemerick: Maybe that's too trusting of class GC and WeakReferences, but it's contractually correct, I think.

15:05 stuartsierra: Right, it should. you shouldn't have side effects inside dosync.

15:05 rhickey: cemerick: so multiple threads calling supers just access the map without synchronization?

15:05 LauJensen: stuartsierra: but I should probably let dosync return the let value, that'll solve it

15:06 stuartsierra: LauJensen: you want to do something like (dosync (let [old-value @my-ref] (ref-set my-ref nil) old-value)

15:06 LauJensen: exactly

15:06 stuartsierra: sorry for the confusion

15:06 hiredman: ~alter

15:06 clojurebot: alter is always correct

15:07 cemerick: rhickey: Yes. What's the downside, given that supers is working with entirely static classes?

15:07 * cemerick braces for it ;-)

15:08 rhickey: cemerick: my question has nothing to do with the caching behavior, has to do with proper use of a collection from multiple threads

15:08 cemerick: ah

15:08 well, the results of super will be identical given the same argument, so worst case is the results get calculated a few more times than necessary

15:09 and there's never any removes

15:09 rhickey: no, the worst case is the map will be inconsistent on a lookup and produce garbage

15:09 you start caching modi, I start read, boom

15:10 you'll need to wrap that in a lock which will make supers a serialization point

15:10 "Like most collection classes, this class is not synchronized."

15:11 cemerick: haha -- been working with clojure too long :-)

15:11 rhickey: yes, sorry, I'm using locking around accesses to the WHM

15:11 I was thinking of transactions and such. :-|

15:11 hiredman: I suppose you could manually wrap everything in a WeakReference before sticking it in the map

15:12 rhickey: right, so, I've tried to avoid that kind of bottleneck in Clojure

15:12 hiredman: :|

15:12 rhickey: hiredman: then you couldn't look it up

15:12 hiredman: oh

15:12 Chouser: cemerick: a persistent map of weak references stored in an atom?

15:12 hiredman: right you are

15:13 rhickey: I think there will be a concurrent weak hashmap in Java7

15:13 ?

15:13 cemerick: Chouser: yeah, that'd probably be fine

15:13 rhickey: any map using weak refs as keys won't support lookup without something extra

15:14 since weak refs have identity semantics

15:16 maybe a persistent map of hashes to weak refs of class+cached-value thingies

15:16 Chouser: in an atom

15:17 rhickey: lookup on hash, then dig in to check class and find data

15:17 yes, in an atom

15:17 Chouser: :-)

15:17 could be a new joke template, like adding "in bed" to fortune cookie sayings.

15:19 rabidsnail: If you ask low-level jvm questions in #java they look at you funny.

15:19 rhickey: it does highlight how refs to persistent things are usually better than locks around mutable things

15:23 cemerick: well, that certainly sounds better than trying to cache isa? relationships in general

15:23 there's too much dynamism in the hierarchies for me to be comfortable with the latter (or, with me implementing the latter)

15:24 rhickey: cemerick: sure, if you want to take a crack at that for supers I'll have a look

15:24 but the same strategy could be used for isa?

15:25 it's just a matter of remembering the hierarchy that was used as your basis, if not identical, toss cache

15:25 cemerick: Perhaps, but you'd have to get into invalidating relationships when a hierarchy is updated

15:26 rhickey: no, just toss the cache

15:26 cemerick: oh, the whole thing?

15:26 rhickey: yup

15:27 cemerick: jeez, in that case, we could just use a standard memoization

15:27 rathore_: sivajag: he

15:27 rhickey: cemerick: not with the class unloading

15:28 cemerick: rhickey: well, MultiFn has the same problem with class unloading

15:41 rhickey: cemerick: You are the one with a problem with it :) I wonder how real a problem it is

15:42 cemerick: rhickey: No problem per se, I just see where it *could* be a problem. I actually didn't make the MultiFn dispatch table connection until after I figured using a WHM was most prudent.

15:42 rhickey: any value you use as a dispatch value can be captured by MultiFns, not just classes

15:43 cemerick: yeah -- I guess I'm just a little paranoid about being able to drop stuff into osgi environments, etc.

15:43 rhickey: but if you do this for isa? it could be a model for a better version of the multifn caches

15:43 cemerick: e.g. I wonder how many times people reload apps in their glassfish containers, etc.

15:49 ambient: is there a default directory structure i should use in a clojure project?

15:50 rhickey: cemerick: I agree there (containers) any global cache is tricky. I'd like to get away from a global set of namespaces even.

15:50 Chouser: ambient: I like: projname/src/com/mydomain/projname.clj for sources, projname/classes/ for compiled .class files, then maybe projname/README

15:51 ambient: projname/lib for libs?

15:51 Chouser: ambient: clojure itsel inserts another level under src to separate .java from .clj code, directories named jvm and clj respectively

15:51 cemerick: rhickey: whoa, sounds like environments :-P

15:51 rhickey: no

15:51 Chouser: ambient: for external libs? yeah, I've seen some projects drop jars they need in a projname/lib/ dir

15:52 cemerick: rhickey: I know, just rocking the boat ;-)

15:52 I'll take a crack at a thread-safe WeakReference approach tomorrow-ish, though.

15:52 rhickey: cemerick: you want to pass an additional env arg to every fn?

15:52 cemerick: cool

15:52 ambient: ok ty

15:52 cemerick: rhickey: no, certainly not

15:53 I just remember us having roughly that conversation about 14-15 months ago.

15:53 Chouser: cemerick: I think that's what IRC is for. Having the same conversation as often as possible

15:54 ambient: Chouser I thought IRC was for typing random stuff on caffeine high

15:54 rhickey: :)

15:55 cemerick: Chouser: what was remarkable about that conversation was that it was via email!

15:55 Like, who ever does email anymore? :-P

15:57 hiredman: clojurebot doesn't do email...

15:58 (bugfixes welcome)

16:10 cemerick: does anyone else get a twitch under their eye when they read "patches welcome"? :-)

16:11 Chouser: cemerick: no! I feel a surge of adrenaline that nearly masks the vague sinking feeling of my time slipping away...

16:11 hiredman: well that explains things

16:12 Chouser: hehe

16:12 dave[csc]: Does anyone have experience with the Clojure bundle for TextMate?

16:13 cemerick: Chouser: ha!

16:14 I happened to ask someone about Inkscape providing an OS X-native UI (rather than X11), and got "patches welcome", which was funny.

16:19 dave[csc]: No one uses TextMate to edit clojure eh?

16:19 Chousuke: I think emacs is the most popular editor. :)

16:20 dave[csc]: Humbug :P

16:21 I love textmate, and the bundles, but I can never seem to get them to 'just work'

16:21 Chousuke: Hm, I hate jokes that can't be translated ;(

16:22 I always get an urge to tell them to people who can't understand the language.

16:23 But maybe I could make a joke out of translating them

16:24 and ending up with something that makes no sense to anyone.

16:25 arbscht: sounds a lot like porting code between computer languages

16:25 hiredman: ~sense

16:25 clojurebot: No entiendo

16:26 Chouser: Chousuke: something like this? http://translationparty.com/#3751265

16:27 Chousuke: That's perfect!

16:28 I suppose it doesn't work with Finnish. :/

16:30 ambient: so what's the joke?

16:31 jensli: Finnish has plentifull of, is it calls 'cases' in english? Maybe that is a bit like polymorfism.

16:31 ambient: Finnish is like elvish, it mangles words to give them different meanings

16:32 duncanm: i can't convince XMLEventWriter to write out <foo /> instead of <foo></foo> for me ;-(

16:35 cemerick: Chousuke: I think we need a preferred-editor-poll :-P

16:35 ambient: is that an emacs command?

16:35 Chousuke: :D

16:46 LauJensen: ~ozzilee

16:46 clojurebot: It's greek to me.

16:46 LauJensen: ~seen ozzilee

16:46 clojurebot: no, I have not seen ozzilee

17:00 wtetzner_: how are datetimes usually dealt with in clojure?

17:01 is there an immutable datetime object, or do people just take a java datetime and construct a hash-map from it?

17:03 stuartsierra: I use Java Date and just don't modify it.

17:03 wtetzner_: ok

17:04 stuartsierra: The Joda library is popular, as well.

17:04 wtetzner_: cool, i'll take a look at it

17:04 thanks

17:07 jensli: You could take a java DateTime and call (bean ...) on it?

17:09 Ops, speaking .net here, Date it is

17:09 stuartsierra: ,(bean (java.util.Date.))

17:09 clojurebot: {:seconds 28, :date 31, :class java.util.Date, :minutes 11, :hours 14, :year 109, :timezoneOffset 420, :month 7, :day 1, :time 1251753088119}

17:09 stuartsierra: that works surprisingly well

17:10 wtetzner_: yeah

17:10 jensli: thanks

17:11 jensli: But how does that struct works with the Date methods?

17:11 wtetzner_: why is year 109?

17:12 Chouser: wtetzner_: years since 1900. yes, really.

17:12 wtetzner_: hmm

17:13 Chouser: people speak highly of Joda Time which apparently has an immutable date/time object.

17:13 wtetzner_: Chouser: yeah, stuartsierra mentioned it too

17:13 looks pretty fancy

17:14 stuartsierra: haven't tried it myself

17:16 Chouser: oh, sorry, missed that in the join/part noise.

17:17 technomancy: wtetzner_: I wrote a wrapper for java.util.Date that translates between those and maps, but Date doesn't give correct behaviour for dealing with daylight savings and other time-based edge cases

17:17 so joda is probably better if you need that

17:17 wtetzner_: technomancy: ok, thanks

17:17 yeah, i think i'm gonna try going with joda

17:21 technomancy: the built-in JDK Date stuff is really horrible

17:22 stuartsierra: eh, it works for simple cases

17:24 cemerick: yeah, I've never had reason to stray. I know it's fundamentally shoddy, but... *shrug*

17:28 wavis: i'm experiencing some weirdness with the set function

17:29 I have a function that simplifies a common case where I use map, but instead of returning a seq it returns a set

17:30 hiredman:

17:32 wavis: sorry got a call

17:33 so if i take out the set function, it doesn't run out of memory, and i can just apply the set outside, to the results of the function

17:33 and everything is hunky dorey. is there some weirdness with nesting a map within the #(set %) ?

17:34 like (set (map #(awesomeness %) bigseq))

17:34 Chouser: ,(set {:a 1 :b 2}) ; like this??

17:34 clojurebot: #{[:b 2] [:a 1]}

17:34 Chouser: oh, that kind of map.

17:34 wavis: yeah

17:35 Chouser: how big? I just put a million Integers in a set that way with no problem.

17:36 wavis: there are a few tens of thousands of entries in bigseq, and each is a map like {:id 100 :name "tommy"}

17:36 Licenser: isn't map doing lazy sequs so mapping over a huge set would not instantly do much?

17:37 Chouser: Licenser: yes, but 'set' would force the whole thing.

17:37 Licenser: ah okay

17:37 again I learned something :)

17:37 wavis: right. without the enclosing set function it returns instantly

17:37 ambient: what's the easiest way to transform [2 10 4 59 9 3 ...] sequence into [[2 10] [4 59] [9 3] ...]?

17:37 stuartsierra: I got memory errors with (count (set (map identity (range 1000000))))

17:37 ambient: im sure there's a single function for this

17:37 Licenser: perhamps pmap would hep here?

17:37 Chouser: ambient: (partition 2 coll)

17:37 stuartsierra: Licenser: pmap won't help with the memory problem

17:38 ambient: Chouser ok ty I need to look that up

17:38 Licenser: hmm string the data in half bits? *hides*

17:38 Chouser: ,(count (set (map inc (range 1e6))))

17:38 clojurebot: Execution Timed Out

17:38 Licenser: I try it right now

17:38 Chouser: hm. inconclusive. :-)

17:38 Licenser: 1:1 user=> (count (set (map identity (range 1000000))))

17:38 1000000

17:38 works for me

17:39 stuartsierra: add another zero

17:39 Chouser: this is why I like the 1e6 notation

17:40 stuartsierra: Basically, if adding the set around the map is the only thing that causes a problem, it's probably because the set is too big to fit in memory all at once.

17:40 drewr: ,1e17

17:40 clojurebot: 1.0E17

17:40 Licenser: I don't really have a problem yet

17:41 ah here we go:

17:41 1:3 user=> (count (set (map identity (range 10000000))))

17:41 java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space (repl-1:3)

17:41 out of heap space

17:41 it seems to be a problem with recursion to me

17:41 stuartsierra: map isn't recursive

17:41 Licenser: kind of semi recursive isn't it? with loop I guess

17:42 stuartsierra: loop exists to avoid recursion

17:42 Licenser: it wasn't a memory problem, I hardly noticed the process to use more memory then before

17:42 hiredman: map doesn't use loop

17:42 stuartsierra: right, it's lazyor whatever

17:42 Chouser: Licenser: what happens if you drop the map, and use (set (range ...))

17:43 Licenser: spam :P

17:43 I should have put count there

17:43 Chouser: or set your *print-length* :-)

17:43 Licenser: 1:1 user=> (count (map identity (range 10000000))

17:43 )

17:43 10000000

17:44 works with no problem at all

17:44 stuartsierra: I think the problem is that Licenser had a sequence of maps, which take up considerably more space than an Integer.

17:44 hiredman: Licenser: that is dropping the set

17:44 not the map

17:44 Licenser: oops sorry

17:44 stuartsierra: When you force the entire sequence into memory with "set", it's too big.

17:44 wavis: there's more to this whole situation for me. the seq is lazily reading a large csv which can't fit in memory. is it possible that the function prevents cleaning up the streamed file?

17:44 Licenser: let me test

17:45 the problem isn't that the set does not fit in the memory

17:45 stuartsierra: ok

17:45 Licenser: it's aheap error not a you don't have enough memory error

17:45 wavis: no the set fits in memory fine. it's about 70k longs.

17:45 Licenser: 1:1 user=> (count (set (range 10000000)))

17:45 java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space (repl-1:1)

17:45 yap there is something very wrongish

17:45 wavis: Licenser: oh

17:46 well i'll work around it for now with a do

17:46 Chouser: Is this legit? (let [s (atom! nil)] (defn my-singleton [] (or @s (swap! s #(or @s (MySingleton.))))))

17:47 stuartsierra: Chouser: that's more or less what clojure.contrib.singleton does.

17:47 Licenser: I forgot which sutff I had to (use) to see the soruce code o.O

17:47 Chouser: oh, maybe I shuould just use delay...

17:48 stuartsierra: Chouser: that too. c.c.singleton can do per-thread singletons too

17:48 Chouser: stuartsierra: oh, ok. thanks.

17:48 stuartsierra: But someone pointed out to me that a global singleton is the same thing as a delay.

17:51 Licenser: I get the feeling the problem is in the implemetation of set

17:55 Chouser: it'd be nice if there was a handy conclusive test for a seq-head being held.

17:57 stuartsierra: Rich suggested recently on the mailing list that more such cases can be avoided, but that doing so would require more sophistication on the part of the compiler.

17:58 wavis: oh interesting so set just uses apply

17:58 Licenser: I think to thinn I found teh bad guy

17:58 but I might be wrong

17:59 set uses spread, which is recursive

18:00 achim: Licenser: recursion wouldn't blow the heap, but the stack, right?

18:00 Licenser: isn't the stack in the heap?

18:02 wavis: I just tried with (into #{} (map #(awesomeness %) bigseq)) and it still runs out of heap

18:04 and the same for:

18:04 (reduce #(conj %1 %2) #{} (map #(awesomeness %) bigseq))

18:05 Chouser: is that a chunked bigseq?

18:05 wavis: hmm chunked?

18:06 how do i chunk something?

18:06 Chouser: (chunked-seq? bigseq) to find out

18:06 Chousuke: #(awesomeness %) is a bit redundant btw :P

18:06 Chouser: depends on how the seq is built

18:07 Chousuke: I bet overuse of #() is the most common anti-idiom

18:07 wavis: not chunked

18:07 k, i'll #() from here out if it's preferred

18:08 Chouser: and (set bigseq) works ok?

18:08 jensli: Yeah, (fn ...) is so extremly verbose. Specially compared to Java.

18:08 Licenser: okay a bad recursion gives a stack overflow not a heap overflow

18:09 good greif

18:09 Chousuke: wavis: I mean, (map #(awesomeness %) foo) could be expressed as just (map awesomeness foo) :)

18:10 hiredman: Licenser: the stack contains pointers to objects on the heap, basically

18:11 Licenser: Okay it seems java by default only uses very little memory o.O that seems to be the real problem

18:11 It does not just use the memory of your computer as much as it wants to

18:12 I added -Xmx200m and now it runs way longer

18:12 no Heap exception yet

18:12 wavis: (set bigseq) also run out of heap. and although i thought it worked before, now i'm losing on just > (map :stuff bigseq) > (set *1) in the repl

18:12 i have -Xmx512 so that's not it i don't think

18:13 Licenser: it just means that there is something very big ^^

18:14 wow it still is calculating o.O

18:14 wavis: oh crap, do i really? *sigh* i set that halfway through and forgot the "m". I need -Xmx512m

18:14 so i need to retry some things

18:14 Licenser: oi

18:14 yes with 512 it really won't go very far

18:15 1:1 user=> (count (set (range 10000000)))

18:15 java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space (repl-1:1)

18:15 :(

18:16 doing (0.. 10000000).to_a in ruby it takes about 200 MB

18:17 ambient: try forcing a type? im sure 1e10 big ints will take more than 1e10 32 bit integers

18:17 Licenser: yea it are fixnums not bignums

18:17 but still

18:17 it is a good estimate

18:18 making a set takes about 200MB too

18:18 irb(main):003:0> (s = Set.new((0...10000000))).size

18:18 => 10000000

18:18 and oddly enough is way faster

18:18 wavis: ok, nice, so (into #{} (map foo bigseq)) works fine

18:18 Licenser: something seems very wrong wiht clojure there

18:18 hiredman: http://books.google.com/books?id=dg7bj_e-SAMC&lpg=PP1&dq=jvm&pg=PA9#v=onepage&q=stack&f=false <-- "Java Stack"

18:18 Licenser: hiredman: thanks

18:19 (count (set (range 10000000))) is the same as (s = Set.new((0...10000000))).size or am I wrong?

18:20 creating a new set with 10000000 elements and counting it's size

18:22 hiredman: well, not all sets are the same

18:23 Licenser: set as in a collection of unique values

18:23 hiredman:

18:24 so?

18:24 that is a specification

18:24 Licenser: I just wonder why it is so sloow and crashes my JVM even with 200 MB of memory

18:24 hiredman: it leaves a great degree of freedom on the implementation side

18:24 ambient: premature optimization is premature optimization

18:27 hiredman: ,(class #{})

18:27 clojurebot: clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet

18:27 Licenser: Well I'm not sure if it is premature to make things somewhat fastish. It is not like a exotic thing to have a set of values.

18:28 Chousuke: how many values, exactly?

18:28 Licenser: might the reason be that it can't convert the entire set due to immutability but has to do it element by element?

18:28 hiredman: no

18:28 Licenser: please don't get me wrong, I don't want to jump con clojure. I like the language, I just would like to figure out why it is so slow for this task

18:29 here it are 10_000_000 values

18:29 ambient: (count (set (range foo))) could in princible done lazily

18:29 Chousuke: hmm, and each value is how big? :/

18:29 hiredman: ambient: it would be difficult to do and still retain the nice java interop clojure enjoys

18:30 Licenser: Chousuke: simple fixnums

18:30 (time (count (set (range 10000000))))

18:30 Chousuke: Licenser: don't forget they all need to be boxed though

18:31 hiredman: ,(first (clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet/create (range 1e6)))

18:31 clojurebot: Execution Timed Out

18:31 ambient: using (int 10000000) halves the time used

18:31 hiredman: the jvm doesn't have fixed nums, btw

18:32 Licenser: however they call it

18:33 for me it's running 7 minutes now

18:33 Chousuke: for 10 million it does 10 million allocations

18:33 I guess that takes some time

18:33 :P

18:34 which version of clojure are you using btw?

18:34 Licenser: Okay if it is 'only' that it can be fixed later with some tricks I guess (like bulkallocating space for the boxes)

18:34 Clojure 1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT

18:35 Chousuke: hm, interesting

18:35 user=> (time (count (set (range 1000000))))

18:35 java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: GC overhead limit exceeded (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)

18:35 ambient: i'd rather have a real problem though.

18:35 Chousuke: yeah, microbenchmarks are problematic.

18:35 ambient: this isn't even a microbenchmark

18:35 Licenser: true, but it's a interesting thing still

18:36 ambient: this is just bad coding

18:36 Chousuke: it might be unrealistic behaviour that throws off the optimiser and GC

18:36 Licenser: well someone actually ran in that problem, that is why it came up. We didn't made it up

18:36 so I think it is kind of real at least

18:37 ambient: then you need to change your code from (count (set (range 1000000))) to 1000000

18:37 much faster that way

18:37 Licenser: the count set was just an example to replicate the behaviour of the real code without needing all the dependencies around it

18:38 ambient: I think I have to take your word on that

18:39 Licenser: (set (map #(awesomeness %) bigseq)) <- that was the original problem

18:39 about parsing a big log file or something

18:39 it was discussed about an houre ago if you want to look in the scrollback

18:41 ambient: i see only your solution to the problem, not the problem itself :/ correct me if im wrong

18:41 Chousuke: hm

18:41 interesting

18:42 (into #{} (range 1000000)) works but (set (range 1000000)) fails

18:42 ambient: but alas, im a total newbie with clojure so im not much help

18:42 Chousuke: maybe set doesn't use transients

18:42 wavis: do you need a test case? i can generate a large csv of gobble-de-gook, provide my csv parsing function, et ceteras

18:43 Chousuke: into performance is not too bad either I guess.

18:43 wavis: but I'm not sure that's necessary

18:43 Chousuke: boxing and inserting a million takes 12 seconds here

18:43 hiredman: Chousuke: should be almost the same

18:43 Chousuke: hiredman: into works, set fails. the performance is quite different :P

18:43 hiredman: ipersistenthashset/create is just a for loop that uses cons internally

18:44 Chousuke: hm, I wonder if I have transient sets yet

18:44 hiredman: I have actually looked at the clojure set function

18:44 ~def set

18:44 durka42: ~def hash-set

18:45 Chousuke: hm, apparently no transient sets in my clojure

18:46 achim: set will realize the entire sequence before starting to consume it (args to apply must fit in memory), into doesn't do that

18:47 hiredman: achim: that is not true

18:47 durka42: apply is lazy is it not

18:47 Chousuke: it is.

18:47 hiredman: for some reason, (set) still fails and into doesn't.

18:47 I think it might be the chunkedness.

18:47 * hiredman is stupid about chunks

18:48 Chousuke: c.l.PHS/create is not chunked, but reduce is

18:48 so, it does less allocation

18:48 and since I'm failing with "GC overhead limit exceeded" that might just be it.

18:49 hiredman: (time (first (set (range 1e7)))) runs fine with -Xmx1000m

18:51 ambient: how can you take first from set?

18:51 isn't that undetermined

18:52 achim: hiredman: you're right

18:52 hiredman: ambient: first calls seq which returns a sequence

18:52 ,(first #{1 2 3})

18:52 clojurebot: 1

18:52 hiredman: ,(first {1 2 3 4})

18:52 clojurebot: [1 2]

18:53 hiredman: ,(first [1 2 3 4])

18:53 clojurebot: 1

18:53 hiredman: etc

18:53 so first should work on anything that the seq function works on

18:53 achim: about what?

18:53 ambient: i feel conflicted by that kind of flexibility in data structures

18:53 Licenser_: bah internet died

18:54 achim: hiredman: but retains head, so args to apply really must fit in memory

18:54 er

18:54 but "apply" retains head

18:54 http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/34b9a170d36c5ab5

18:54 hiredman: ~def apply

18:56 Licenser_: ~def spread

18:57 hiredman: ,(let [f (fn [x & y] x)] (apply f (interate inc 0)))

18:57 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: interate in this context

18:57 hiredman: ,(let [f (fn [x & y] x)] (apply f (iterate inc 0)))

18:57 clojurebot: 0

18:57 hiredman: *tada*

18:58 drewr: ,(let [f (fn [x & y] x)] (apply f (range 1000000)))

18:58 clojurebot: 0

18:58 drewr: it's pseudo-lazy, but that doesn't mean it doesn't retain head

18:58 achim: hiredman: that doesn't show it doesn't retain head ...

18:59 Licenser: when talking about lazy, I've to work tomorrow early :) good night everyone! And good luck with this!

18:59 drewr: ,(let [f (fn [x & y] x)] (apply f (doall (range 1000000))))

18:59 clojurebot: 0

18:59 drewr: ,(let [f (fn [x & y] x)] (apply f (doall (range 1e10))))

18:59 clojurebot: Execution Timed Out

19:00 hiredman: ,(let [f (fn [x & y] (first (drop 1e3 y)))] (apply f (iterate inc 0)))

19:00 clojurebot: 1001

19:00 hiredman: ,(let [f (fn [x & y] (first (drop 1e7 y)))] (apply f (iterate inc 0)))

19:00 clojurebot: Execution Timed Out

19:00 Chousuke: hm

19:01 I think you're holding on to y in that case.

19:01 because you're calling first

19:01 so when the (drop ...) is completed the reference to y still exists

19:02 ... I wonder if I'm correct ;/

19:02 cemerick: are struct-maps transient-capable in HEAD?

19:18 wtetzner_: Chousuke: doesn't first just return the value of the first thing in the sequence? not the front of the sequence?

19:18 hiredman:

19:19 wtetzner_: so you wouldn't be holding onto y still

19:20 Chousuke: wtetzner_: well, the drop of course won't return y, but I think it's still there because it's in the function's locals.

19:20 wtetzner_: oh, i see

19:20 Chousuke: and the drop call is not the tail call (at least I think it isn't)

19:20 I'm not sure how exactly it works

19:21 hiredman: I'd have to replace it with a call to nth

19:22 I always forget about nth

19:22 Chousuke: but say you do (fn [x] (let [a (drop 1000000 x)] (first a))) then you will hold on to all of x

19:22 the compiler is not yet smart enough to optimise that :/

20:36 powr-toc: If I have a list of functions '(f1 f2 f3) how would I best execute them?

20:36 sequentially...

20:40 wtetzner_: powr-toc: (doall (map (fn [fucn] (func)) '(f1 f2 f3)))

20:42 durka42: (doseq [f (list #(prn 1) #(prn 2) #(prn 3))] (f))

20:42 ,(doseq [f (list #(prn 1) #(prn 2) #(prn 3))] (f))

20:42 clojurebot: 1 2 3

20:43 wtetzner_: durka42's solution is nicer

20:43 tomoj: why isn't there a "call" function

20:43 durka42: because you just call things...

20:43 there's apply

20:44 wtetzner_: ,(.invoke #(prn 2))

20:44 clojurebot: 2

20:44 durka42: ,(#(prn 2))

20:44 clojurebot: 2

20:45 tomoj: but .invoke can't be mapped :(

20:45 wtetzner_: ,(.call #(prn 2))

20:45 clojurebot: 2

20:45 durka42: #(.invoke %) can be mapped

20:45 as can #(%)

20:45 ,(apply #(prn 2))

20:45 clojurebot: 2

20:45 tomoj: #(%) looks cool but that's just weird

20:45 apply works, it seems

20:46 ,(map apply (list #(prn 1) #(prn 2) #(prn 3)))

20:46 clojurebot: (nil nil nil)

20:46 tomoj: well.. yeah

20:46 durka42: ,(dorun (map apply (list irc://irc.freenode.net/#(prn 1) irc://irc.freenode.net/#(prn 2) irc://irc.freenode.net/#(prn 3))))

20:46 clojurebot: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: irc://irc.freenode.net

20:46 wtetzner_: ,(map #(.invoke %) (list #(prn 1) #(prn 2) #(prn 3)))

20:46 clojurebot: (nil nil nil)

20:46 durka42: ehh... what's that, clojurebot?

20:46 ,(dorun (map apply (list irc://irc.freenode.net/#(prn 1) irc://irc.freenode.net/#(prn 2) irc://irc.freenode.net/#(prn 3))))

20:46 clojurebot: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: irc://irc.freenode.net

20:46 durka42: hiredman: ???

20:47 hiredman: clojurebot: huh?

20:47 clojurebot: Gabh mo leithscéal?

20:47 tomoj: you've got "irc://irc.freenode.net/" in your code

20:47 hiredman: durka42: what?

20:47 durka42: i do?

20:47 tomoj: from here it looks like you do

20:47 apparently clojurebot thinks so too

20:47 * durka42 begs to differ :)

20:47 tomoj: 19:47 <durka42> ,(dorun (map apply (list irc://irc.freenode.net/#(prn 1) irc://irc.freenode.net/#(prn 2) irc://irc.freenode.net/#(prn 3))))

20:47 hiredman:

20:47 durka42: ,(dorun (map apply (list #(prn 1) #(prn 2) #(prn 3))))

20:47 clojurebot: 1 2 3

20:48 durka42: spooky copy and paste action

23:05 LauJensen: I've tried to add a threaded buffered logger to www.bestinclass.dk and now the site seems a bit slow to me. Can somebody here try to access it and let me know what they think?

23:19 Gents?

23:25 cark: do you mean the first access ?

23:27 mhh if i was a corporate customer i wouldn't want my web site doing this accordeon thing

23:28 but it's responsive from belgium

23:37 scottj: Anyone use visualvm to profile? if my namespace is foo, do I put foo.* in the Settings box labeled "Start profiling from classes:"?

23:38 (I guess I wouldn't be asking if that was working for me :)

23:41 I start clojure from shell, run slime-connect from emacs, load code, launch visualvm and connect to jline.ConsoleRunner, change Profiler settings as mentioned, click CPU, it instruments 21 methods, then I go back to slime and run a 2 minute operation, and in the profiler nothing shows up except maybe a few things outside my app.

23:42 LauJensen: cark: Thanks for both testing and giving design advice :) Yes it was first response I was worried about

23:42 cark: first response isn't very fast

23:42 LauJensen: not fast or slow ?

23:42 cark: nah it's ok

23:43 i guess you have quit e a bit of javascript loading there

23:43 LauJensen: Its not that bad actually

23:44 The amount of javascript that is. But I decorated my entire servlet in a buffered logger which keeps a certain amount of records in memory, flushing it every 5 minutes to SQL. I was afraid it was lagging somehow

23:45 cark: mhh but how could a logger slow things down ? even to an sql database ... do you plan to have millions page views ?

23:45 that's because you open a connection to the database per request ?

23:47 cemerick: scottj: I generally just exclude the junk I don't want, and profile everything (I use NetBeans/enclojure -- visualvm is based on the former)

23:48 scottj: with good results, FWIW http://twitter.com/cemerick/status/3615358808 :-D

23:48 LauJensen: cark: no no, like I said it flushes every 5 minutes, so it keeps a buffer. And I'm not saying I can explain how it would slow things down, it was just a 'feeling' :)

23:48 cark: ok =)

23:49 see i'm just pestering you because i'd like to see some connection pooling in clojureql !

23:49 LauJensen: hehe, are you following us on lighthouse? because its really quite close to implementation now

23:50 cark: nope didn't know about it

23:50 LauJensen: lemme dig up the discussion

23:50 cark: i've got it thanks

23:52 LauJensen: http://clojureql.lighthouseapp.com/projects/34981/tickets/4-allow-optional-global-db-conn

23:52 this one right? We're still not in agreement, so you're welcome to add your wisdom to the equation

23:53 cark: well i have a library doing generic pooling, i use it to pool memcached connections

23:53 and was thinking maybe applying this to sql connections as well

23:54 though memcached is very slow now due to print/read serialization

23:54 cemerick: actually, one thing I miss from eclipse is *per-line* runtime stats while profiling. That was tremendous.

23:55 Obviously, only available in Java.

23:55 LauJensen: cark: The discussion is not centered around technology, its more user implementation details. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding you since its 05:56 here :)

23:57 cark: my fault i was digressing

23:57 it's 6am here too ... i'm off to bed !

23:58 LauJensen: Alright, good night, and thanks

23:58 cark: good night

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