#clojure log - Apr 29 2009

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0:02 kadaver: ?

0:03 hiredman: well, find the code that is generating the exception

0:05 kadaver: yeah uh

0:07 hiredman: are you using the latest contrib?

0:08 kadaver_: clojure.lang.Repl")

0:08 that suspect

0:08 hiredman: nope

0:08 kadaver_: that namespace doesnt exist anymore?

0:08 hiredman: that is not a namespace

0:08 that is a java class

0:09 kadaver_: oh well

0:09 hiredman: (and it does still exist)

0:10 kadaver_: well

0:10 i can start the prompt so was stupd

0:11 hiredman: are you using the latest contrib?

0:11 (if you say "yes", I am going to ask you to prove it)

0:14 kadaver_: fakk i think it is because i deleted my user.clj

0:14 because i cant find it

0:14 hiredman: I doubt it

0:14 are you using the latest contrib?

0:14 kadaver_: yes

0:15 hiredman: are you sure?

0:16 are you sure?

0:16 kadaver: i cloned from github

0:16 about 1 hour ago

0:16 hiredman: wrong answer

0:17 ~contrib

0:17 clojurebot: contrib is http://code.google.com/p/clojure-contrib/

0:17 hiredman: ^-- not github

0:17 kadaver: no downloads there

0:18 hiredman: ...

0:18 ok

0:18 replaca: hiredman: github is usually pretty up-to-date

0:18 hiredman: http://code.google.com/p/clojure-contrib/source/checkout

0:19 kadaver: svn

0:20 replaca: kadaver: the version you cloned from github should be fine

0:21 kadaver: you may need to do an "ant clean" as part of your build, if you have built before

0:22 kadaver: clean?

0:22 replaca: afaik there is no pre-built version of contrib

0:22 kadaver: even the buildsystemhas unwanted side-effects?

0:23 replaca: kadaver: sometimes build state get stuck on both clojure and clojure-contrib - not sure why

0:23 chessguy: ,(map vector [1 2] [3 4] [5 6])

0:23 clojurebot: ([1 3 5] [2 4 6])

0:38 kadaver: fakk

0:38 it has broken everything

0:38 what version is clojure now?

0:39 hiredman: ~latest

0:39 clojurebot: latest is 1359

0:40 hiredman: ~latest contrib

0:40 haha

0:40 throws an exception

0:49 unlink2: heh

0:50 hiredman: ~todo

0:50 clojurebot: todo is not what you think it is

0:50 hiredman: ~todo is http://clojure.org/todo

0:50 clojurebot: Ik begrijp

1:08 Cark: what's an application server ? JBoss for instance ...what is that used for ?

1:09 hum nevermind

4:45 AWizzArd: Moin

4:50 Cark: good morning AWizzArd

5:01 jdz_: is there already functionality to convert Java Hashtable to a map?

5:12 stuhood: jdz: not without copying the whole thing, but if you don't mind that, you can use (into {} old-hash-map)

5:13 ,(into {} (doto (new java.util.HashMap) (.put 1 "1") (.put 2 "2")))

5:13 clojurebot: {2 "2", 1 "1"}

5:13 jdz: ok, thanks

5:54 Lau_of_DK: (map #(vector % (Math/abs (- % 150))) *comp-types*)

5:54 ([110 40] [120 30] [130 20] [140 10] [150 0] [160 10] [190 40] [510 360])

5:54 Is there an idiomatic oneliner kinda of a way, to get that vector which has the lowest (second) ?

5:54 Thinking out loud (apply min (map second ...)) - which ofc doesnt work, because it doesnt give me the (first)

5:56 Chousuke: I think there's a min-by or something in contrib

5:57 djpowell: Re: utf-8, it looks to me that clojure should be specifying utf-8 for loading clojure files, but it should be using the platform default encoding for *in* *out* and *err*. so it is just those constants that need fixing.

5:58 if you actually want utf-8 for output - eg to write to a file - then you can just rebind *out* yourself

5:59 Chousuke: Lau_of_DK: (reduce (fn [x y] (if (< (second x) (second y)) x y)) coll)

6:16 Lau_of_DK: Thanks Chou

6:30 unlink1: danlarkin: ping

7:37 AWizzArd: Hi rhickey

7:37 rhickey: hey

7:38 AWizzArd: I have a question: nearly every day I see you coming online around this time. You join the channel, stay a few moments and leave again. Some time later you come back and stay. Is that just a check to see if the channel is still there? ;)

7:39 rhickey: I have a bunch of machines and places where I work, so I go in and out when switching

7:41 AWizzArd: I see

7:44 Is there a way to decide what test function to use for hashtable lookups? For example, I insert the key "AbC" but want to look up (and find) "abc". (make-hash-table :test #(.equalsIgnoreCase %1 %2) ...)

7:46 rhickey: AWizzArd: no, equality test and hash fn must go together, and are not pluggable

7:47 AWizzArd: Okay

7:49 So if my keys are strings I should maybe convert them to lowercase before inserting them, and also convert user input to lowercase before doing a lookup.

7:49 rhickey: or use a sorted-map with a compare fn

7:51 AWizzArd: Ah, sorted-map-by would allow me to use equalsIgnoreCase then it seems.

7:52 rhickey: right

7:52 AWizzArd: good good, that was what I was looking for

7:52 Btw, is there a way to print macro expansions without the namespace qualifiers, for easier readability during debugging?

7:54 rhickey: maybe pprint has an option?

7:56 AWizzArd: good idea, it has *print-suppress-namespaces*

8:04 Is it possible to have the JVM automatically use swap space on its host if needed (vs. throw an Out of Memory exception)?

8:05 mccraig: AWizzArd: -Xmx switch specifies max heap size... make that as big as u like [ on a 64-bit machine ]

8:21 AWizzArd: mccraig: sounds good

9:12 http://github.com/schacon/hg-git/tree/master

9:15 danlarkin: unlink1: pong

9:16 unlink1: danlarkin: I was wondering about the design decision of using a custom template engine in Madison.

9:16 I feel that one of the greatest strengths of clojure on the web is how natural it is to make an HTML-outputting DSL in clojure.

9:18 danlarkin: it becomes very hard to separate the presentation layer from the logic layer when you're using HTML-outputting code

9:19 unlink1: You can simply not perform application logic in the template.

9:19 The sequence constructs in clojure are just too good to pass up when outputting HTML.

9:20 And first class functions make an excellent macro facility.

9:20 All for free.

9:20 chessguy_work: 'morning

9:22 i gotta say, i keep digging just a little bit deeper into clojure, and it keeps impressing me. i haven't had this many 'aha' moments since learning haskell

9:23 danlarkin: well you're free to just not use the templating engine and instead use whatever html generation method you like, of course

9:23 chessguy_work: though i probably shouldn't have stayed up until 1:30 am this morning watching the clojure for java programmers screencast

9:23 danlarkin: but I think writing html-generating code is a big long-term maintainability mistake

9:24 unlink1: I've maintained and extended django(/jinja)-style templates for awhile. I think the fundamental idea is very flawed.

9:26 I'm not saying a lisp DSL is the antidote; I haven't even built a large application with one yet. It simply seems to address my concerns based on my limited experience iwth compojure's.

9:28 danlarkin: we've built several large sites with django templates and while of course we have out complaints (why isn't this easier, why do I have to jump through hoops to do that) I think it's better than any of the alternatives

9:28 unlink1: Well, I find jnija templates to be a VAST improvement over django, at least.

9:29 tWip: well most templates are code, in one sense or another... and it's not nearly as nice to code in than Clojure

9:30 danlarkin: I should get around to trying jinja, then...

9:30 tWip: I'd much rather write Clojure code than HTML+some special markup

9:30 unlink1: Macros and real function calls are the killer features.

9:31 Actual expressions would be a close 3rd.

9:31 My current project uses neither include nor extends.

9:32 tWip: yeah, you write the functions and macros that speak your specific UI needs... and you don't need to work directly with HTML tags

9:32 danlarkin: I feel like it's walking the path down to spaghetti code

9:32 unlink1: You just have to be careful.

9:32 tWip: my experience with templating systems is that that leads to spaghetti (JSP being the most horrible one)

9:33 unlink1: If you're doing something like myobj.related.filter(foo="bar").order_by("bat"), then you are probably doing something wrong.

9:34 tWip: but in any case, you do need to be clear about separating concerns... whatever the approach

9:34 unlink1: Yes.

9:35 danlarkin: If you do make the switch, be sure to check out http://bitbucket.org/trevor/chouwa/ -- make the transition much smoother.

9:36 danlarkin: yes, and at the very least you can always just call an html-generating function at the end of your normal madison view function, instead of the render-to-response to use the templating engine I wrote

9:36 unlink1: yeah

9:47 danlarkin: unlink1: I'm glad you even took the time to look at madison though :)

9:47 unlink1: I'm glad I saw it, I was about to do the same thing.

9:48 danlarkin: haha

9:48 oh good, then you can help!

9:48 unlink1: definitely

9:48 be careful, I'm very opinionated about how web frameworks should work O:-)

9:49 danlarkin: it's a little rough around the edges, and missing some of the really helpful parts of django

9:49 unlink1: I have been thinking about how forms should be done a lot lately. Havne't seen how you do it in Madison, but it sucks in django about 60% of the time.

9:50 danlarkin: I haven't done any forms or models yet

9:51 I know what you mean though

9:52 well I know forms and models wont' be working /exactly/ like in django, because of the statefullness on the django side

9:53 it would be nice to have them work in a more functional way... perhaps monoids... I don't know

9:55 unlink1: yeah

9:55 Well it's something to think about.

9:55 Um, and yeah, ORM, uhh

9:55 chessguy_work: ,(first [1,2,3])

9:55 clojurebot: 1

9:56 chessguy_work: ,(seq? [1,2,3])

9:56 clojurebot: false

9:57 unlink1: http://trevor.caira.com/scripts/clojuredoc

10:05 chessguy_work: ,(conj 1 "abc")

10:05 clojurebot: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection

10:05 chessguy_work: ,(cons 1 "abc")

10:05 clojurebot: (1 \a \b \c)

11:22 grzm: i'm attempting to get emacs, slime, and clojure all working happily together.

11:23 I'm currently getting a "clojure.congrib.javadoc/javadoc can now be found in clojure.contrib.repl-utils." exception thrown when slime is loading.

11:24 I'm having a hard time figuring out what is trying to load clojure/contrib/javadoc.clj.

11:25 checkouts fresh this morning

11:25 any pointers would be appreciated

11:38 stuartsierra: grzm: do you have a user.clj file trying to load clojure.contrib.javadoc?

11:39 grzm: stuartsierra: that is exactly it. thank you thank you thank you

11:39 slime loads just fine now :)

11:47 stuartsierra: grzm: you're welcome

12:02 cemerick: gah, I keep typing namespace/:keyword instead of :namespace/keyword :-/

12:43 unlink: So, compiling classes you run with "java" seems pretty well documented. What I'd like to do is create static methods on a Java class. Is this something that's possible to do with Clojure?

12:53 arohner: unlink: I think so

12:54 cemerick: unlink: see http://clojure.org/API#gen-class, under :methods

12:55 can't expand on that a.t.m., trying to do real work :-)

12:55 arohner: Static methods can be specified with #^{:static true} in the

12:55 signature's metadata.

13:24 kadaver: to upper and to lower?

13:27 dliebke: ,(.toUpperCase "hello")

13:27 clojurebot: "HELLO"

13:27 dliebke: ,(.toLowerCase "HELLO")

13:27 clojurebot: "hello"

13:27 Raynes: ,(.toUpper "Hello")

13:27 clojurebot: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: toUpper for class java.lang.String

13:28 Raynes: I could have swore that worked.

13:29 replaca: Raynes: no, that wouldn't be verbose enough for Java :-)

13:31 kadaver: when i try to C-c C-l in emacs clojure-mode it loads the interpreter but I get: java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: clojure (NO_SOURCE_FILE:37)

13:31 pretty useless error message

13:31 i can C-x e a function to the interpreter but not load a file

13:39 technomancy: kadaver: what's your classpath look like?

13:40 kadaver: also: do you get the same problem with C-c C-k?

14:13 kadaver: C-c C-k is undefined

14:13 http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=4404#a4404

14:13 my .emacs clojure-part

14:17 technomancy: kadaver: I've never seen slime configured like that. did you try using M-x clojure-install?

14:17 that's the simplest way to get it working

14:19 which begs the question: how can we make it clearer to newcomers that they shouldn't be manually configuring slime?

14:19 clojurebot: slime?

14:19 clojurebot: slime is icky

14:20 technomancy: clojurebot: slime is best configured using M-x clojure-install once you have clojure-mode installed. Please *don't* configure it manually unless you know what you're doing.

14:20 clojurebot: c'est bon!

14:20 kadaver: clojure-mode not slime

14:21 im not a newcomer but i havent used cllojure for a while, i wrote an mp3player in clojure and now i wanted to update it,use a database and reinstalling broke everything :(

14:21 Chouser: reinstalling what?

14:22 kotarak: clojurebot: slime is also icky

14:22 clojurebot: In Ordnung

14:22 kotarak: hiredman gets angry when overwriting factoids...

14:24 kadaver: reinstall clojure and clojure-contrib

14:27 technomancy: kotarak: heh, yeah. I didn't realize he had added "is also"

14:28 kadaver: I meant newcomers to slime.

14:31 * technomancy prefers the fsbot approach where you have to forget facts before overwriting them

14:37 * kadaver prefers having good errormessages over java.lang.Excpetion

14:40 kadaver: so whats up with the clojure-namespace, i mean what could have caused this?

14:40 technomancy: probably the classpath isn't set up right

14:45 kadaver: but was their anything wrong in the path i posted?

14:46 technomancy: depends on where you installed things

14:47 but in general constructing your own inferior-lisp-program value is much more error-prone than having swank-clojure create it for you

14:49 kadaver: should the javapath not be in there anymore?

14:49 java -cp clojure.jar clojure.lang.Repl

14:49 says the website now that worked

14:54 but i still cant C-c C-l

14:55 technomancy: why are you configuring it by hand?

14:56 kadaver: i never liked slime

14:56 i want clojure-mode

14:57 technomancy: oh, you're not using slime at all? hmm, then I have no idea if that will work.

14:57 kadaver: where is that package with slime?

14:57 forgot hwta its called

14:57 technomancy: swank-clojure?

14:57 kadaver: its a bundle of slime+emacs+clojure+contrib(i think)

14:58 maybe

14:58 technomancy: oh, maybe you're thinking of ClojureBox?

15:00 kadaver: yes

15:08 going with that let's see

15:11 doesnt clojruebox come with syntaxhighlithing?

15:11 and how do i fire upt he repl?

15:18 File error: Cannot open load file, clojure-auto

15:19 ok shouldnt that come with clojure-box?

15:46 so anyone using clojure-box?

15:56 anyoe know what clojure-auto is?

15:56 i give up

15:56 i rewrite the whole crap in haskell instead

15:56 will be better anyway

15:57 hoeck: kadaver: no, don't!

15:58 I believe clojure-auto was part of clojure-mode.el, but is now obsolete

15:59 kadaver: so why does clojure-box ask for it?

15:59 hoeck: good question

15:59 * cemerick is always amazed by the amount of work that ends up going into slime et al. *ducks*

16:00 kadaver: i put it in there now anyway and still doesnt find it

16:00 hoeck: it must be on emacs' load-path

16:00 clojurebox is a windows.exe?

16:01 kadaver: where did you download it?

16:01 kadaver: http://clojure.bighugh.com/

16:01 yes an exe

16:04 cemerick: is there not a subset? predicate floating around somewhere?

16:05 dnolen: question is there something in contrib that deals with regex matches? dealing with java.util.regex.Pattern is less than satisfactory.

16:05 cemerick: ah, clojure.contrib.set/subset

16:07 arohner: dnolen: there is some stuff in core, and some stuff in contrib.str-utils

16:07 dnolen: (find-doc "re-")

16:08 dnolen: great thanks! :)

16:08 hoeck: dnolen: especially re-seq


16:08 dnolen: I always forget about (find-doc ...)

16:09 arohner: (find-doc "regex") is probably a better search

16:11 kadaver: ==>>

16:11 arohner: I use find doc to find functions I wrote :-)

16:11 hoeck: kadaver: just downloaded the latest clojurebox here, and it installs & runs without any problems

16:12 kadaver: windows vista?

16:13 Clojure Box 20090320, published April 8, 2009, built with the official Clojure 20090320 release. ?

16:13 hoeck: no, tablet xp, latest release, yes

16:17 kadaver: maybe the clojurebox installed emacs is looking at your old emacs' init.el ???

16:18 kadaver: yeah not ven my current one but some old bastard file i found it now

16:18 technomancy: cemerick: it's really easy to get slime set up, it's just that for some reason folks insist on doing it the hard way.

16:19 cemerick: technomancy: emacs is the hard way IMVHO, but we're *deep* in personal preference now :-)

16:20 technomancy: cemerick: well kadaver is on Windows too, so that's the double-hard way.

16:21 cemerick: ouch.

16:22 kadaver: well how do you compile your program i you dont use an editor?

16:22 i have namespaces and alls etup and just really need to run compile to generate the player

16:23 hoeck: technomancy: not really, it was so with slime an opensource-cl's, but with clojure its just java and emacs-lisp, both very portable

16:23 cemerick: kadaver: I use netbeans + enclojure with very good results. There's intellij and eclipse clojure environments as well.

16:24 technomancy: hoeck: in theory, sure. but it's harder to find others who can help with your questions.

16:24 kotarak: kadaver: java -cp clojure.jar:src:classes clojure.lang.Compile my.fance.namespace

16:25 technomancy: btw; anyone want to code-review my patch? http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/detail?id=13

16:26 kotarak: kadaver: and there's VimClojure for Vim (for completeness sake)

16:26 kadaver: which version is clojure now? would be ncie if it stabilized

16:26 kotarak: 1.0 to come soon, it seems.

16:27 * kadaver runs away in fear of teh IDEs

16:33 cads: hey, I've got a collection of particles in n-dimensional space, and I want to keep a list of each particle's 3 closest neighbors. What's a good way to accelerate that computation and speed recalculation after incremental updates to the particles?

16:35 kadaver: kd-tree?

16:37 user=> (load-file "C:/clojure/progs/mp3player/mp3player.clj")

16:37 java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: net.miginfocom.swing.MigLayout (miglayout.clj:

16:37 0)

16:38 ah wait

16:39 cads: hey, in contrib I see something about a type system with algebraic types

16:39 is that usable?

16:41 kadaver: http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=4408#a4408 <- any ideas why that could be? layout is a function I defined and it IS there...

16:45 Chousuke: kadaver: C:/clojure/ is not in the classpath? :)

16:46 hoeck: kadaver: this is referring to an anonymous function inside layout, namely fn__451

16:48 kadaver: okidoki but it is compiling that gives the error

16:48 (binding [*compile-path* "C:\\clojure\\classes"]

16:48 (compile 'progs.mp3player.mp3player))

16:48 that part

16:48 just running main and it works

16:49 stuhood: kadaver: as Chousuke said, you need C:/clojure/ on your classpath

16:50 cemerick: does anyone have any pointers to some discussion on idiomatic multimethod usage? (a group thread or somesuch?).

16:50 hoeck: but isn't . always on the classpath?

16:50 kotarak: kadaver: you need the classes directory in your classpath, your src directory as well as everything else needed, clojure, miglayout, ...

16:50 stuhood: kadaver: and also wherever you have defined the output classes will go: see *compile-path*

16:51 http://clojure.org/api#toc12

16:52 kotarak: http://clojure.org/compilation

16:53 kadaver: I have

16:53 could be somehting in miglayout that changed?

16:53 stuhood: kadaver: from what you showed us, *compile-path* isn't in your classpath

16:55 kadaver: ok got it

16:55 it worked now

17:01 cemerick: huh, I wasn't expecting this:

17:01 ,^#^{:foo '5}(range 5)

17:01 clojurebot: nil

17:01 cemerick: ,^#^{:foo '5}[]

17:01 clojurebot: {:foo 5}

17:01 kadaver: still weird that C-c C-l doesnt work

17:02 technomancy: does anyone have a good overview of using character buffers and char arrays in Clojure?

17:02 it seems like a very common problem you see with Java interop; I'm thinking there's got to be some nicer abstractions than what I end up using.

17:13 stuhood: cemerick: it seems like metadata would make a lot more sense if the object didn't have to support it

17:14 cemerick: maybe clojure could just keep a map of object-id -> metadata for each namespace or something, rather than attaching it to the object

17:14 technomancy: is it a common idiom for readers' .read methods to return an int representing how many bytes/chars were read?

17:15 leaving the return value of .read undocumented seems to be *very* common, I'm wondering if that's just an assumption everyone has

17:16 stuhood: rhickey: what do you think about keeping metadata detached from the object, in a global map?

17:16 technomancy: it's frustrating to hear static typing fans complain about not being able to know what return values are in dynamic languages when you have the same problem with Java. "OK, so you return an int. What on earth does it _mean_?"

17:18 albino: means it's not null?

17:18 stuhood: technomancy: heh... and you can't even subclass Integer to give it a type

17:18 more specific* type

17:19 i know that would be the Haskell solution

17:21 dnolen: stuhood: how would metadata get garbage collected then? (just wondering, i don't know much about GC techniques at all)

17:21 technomancy: there's got to be a better abstraction for this reader stuff though.

17:21 lisppaste8: technomancy pasted "getting a string from a reader" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79427

17:21 technomancy: seven lines to get a string from a reader is just sad. =\

17:23 stuhood: dnolen: shoot.

17:24 kadaver: sgl/update-values - why doesn't it take a function? I mean I want to increment the count in a record, not supply a new value.

17:28 stuhood: dnolen: oh... what about WeakHashMap? the key would be the object itself

17:29 dnolen: interesting how does WeakHashMap work?

17:29 stuhood: dnolen: i don't know if there could be an immutable equivalent, but the implementation is described here: http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/WeakHashMap.html

17:33 kadaver: anyoen have any example of sql/update-values ?

17:36 stuhood: dnolen: do you think it's worth bringing up on the group?

17:38 dnolen: stuhood: It does seem really interesting, I guess one thought is that map could get really large really fast right? again I'm no expert, so I'm not sure if it matters.

17:39 or not

17:39 seems interesting

17:39 stuhood: dnolen: only items with metadata would need entries

17:40 kotarak: It becomes a bottleneck if a lot of parallel updates are done to the metadata of objects. I'm not sure this is realistic though....

17:40 stuhood: there is terracotta to consider too... apparently they don't support WeakHashMaps atm

17:40 dnolen: yeah I think it's worth bringing, but I'm no Java expert ;)

17:41 ahh, yeah, that's probably a deal breaker, unless they have it on their roadmap.

17:41 stuhood: kotarak: true, but there are (hash)map implementations that provide ridiculous amounts of concurrency

17:42 dnolen: there is a ticket... not too old https://jira.terracotta.org/jira/browse/CDV-608

17:42 oh... '08

17:42 ugh

17:44 dnolen: it does seem like they aren't against the idea tho

17:45 AWizzArd: rhickey: did you decide yet if you want to switch away from svn?

17:46 technomancy: AWizzArd: sounds like it's not going to happen soon

17:47 actually... he posted that before Google Code announced hg support. he just said moving to git is not going to happen soon.

17:47 but it seems unlikely, especially for core clojure.

17:48 AWizzArd: I don't know if you followed the discusson from two days ago where Rich asked if we are ready for the switch to hg.

17:49 technomancy: AWizzArd: oh, I'm just going from what I read on the mailing list; sounds like you're more informed than I am.

17:49 interesting.

17:49 AWizzArd: Rich was discussing it with us two days ago, for one hour or so.

17:50 technomancy: I've got to say, mercurial definitely has the best name of all the DSCMs.

17:50 AWizzArd: ;-)

17:50 technomancy: bzr has the best logo though.

17:50 stuhood: ~def meta

17:52 technomancy: I guess Sun is big into hg these days too

17:52 AWizzArd: seems so

17:52 kotarak: clojurebot: kotarak

17:52 clojurebot: Huh?

17:52 kotarak: hmm..

17:53 AWizzArd: I have the impression that the OpenJDK alone has as many LOC as nearly all the projects under git have together.

17:53 rsynnott: that seems improbable

17:53 technomancy: mozilla and python are the only non-Sun projects I recognize on the ProjectsUsingMercurial page

17:53 AWizzArd: With Mozilla having nearly as much code as the Linux Kernel

17:53 rsynnott: especially if you count the ten different copies of every ruby library with the same names on techcrunch

17:54 AWizzArd: and the OpenJDK with waaay more LOC

17:54 technomancy: mozilla's codebase is frighteningly massive

17:54 rsynnott: eh, techcrunch? I meant github

17:54 * rsynnott is obviously overtired

17:54 kotarak: Is Xen also Sun?

17:54 rsynnott: don't think so

17:54 isn't it of Microsoft-ish origin?

17:55 p_l: nope

17:55 they had NT5.1 support in Xen 1.0, though

17:55 kotarak: Xen also uses hg, AFAIR.

17:56 technomancy: so hg can do rebasing now; is that right?

17:56 AWizzArd: The latest numbers in LOC that I got was: about 2,5mio for the Linux Kernel and about 2,4 mio for Mozilla

17:56 kotarak: yup

17:56 AWizzArd: And the OpenJDK enjoyes over 6,5 mio LOC

17:56 enjoys even

17:56 kotarak: the yup was meant for technomancy

17:57 AWizzArd: anyway, git *and* hg both should have no problems with the code base for Clojure and Contrib.

17:57 technomancy: kotarak: cool. and in-place branching too?

17:57 AWizzArd: you mean many branches in one repo?

17:57 rsynnott: ah, Xen had financial support from Microsoft Research Cambridge

17:57 kotarak: technomancy: do you mean several branches in one dir? hg supports that for ages...

17:57 rsynnott: (along with the UK government and Intel, so not really particularly MS-sepecific)

17:58 technomancy: kotarak: so the main difference with branches is you clone all of them by default rather than just master and whatever you ask for, right? (vs git)

17:58 kotarak: technomancy: yes. there are no "private" branches

17:59 AWizzArd: technomancy: the basic idea is to start a new repo for a branch. That is in reality no problem. BitBucket and most likely google have direct support for that.

17:59 kotarak: technomancy: although there is now the bookmark plugin...

17:59 AWizzArd: You only need one account. Under that you can easily branch.

17:59 No need to register (and even pay) multiple times for different branches.

18:00 kotarak: VimClojure uses two branches in the repository, the default and the bleeding-edge branch. But that's a rather overviewable code base...

18:01 AWizzArd: For rhickey it is just important that he can checkout his work on whatever compi he is, do some coding, and bring it back to the central server.

18:01 That will be easily possible with hg (and git of course).

18:02 Google wrote that they decided for hg not only because it is easier, but also because cloning via http is much more performant. For their tests about 8 second for hg vs 178 seconds for git.

18:03 stuhood: Google <3's HTTP

18:03 AWizzArd: strange hmm? ;-)

18:03 well...

18:03 * AWizzArd would prefer hg as well

18:03 stuhood: i tend to agree: custom protocols suck

18:03 kotarak: Someone compared hg with Denzel Washington and git with Wesley Snipes. The latter provides more fancy action, while the first just does its job quite unspectacularly.

18:04 AWizzArd: So, when is the Clojure VCS ready? *g*

18:05 I think what the world really needs is another vcs

18:05 stuhood: with STM!

18:06 hmm... i wonder how close the implementation details of STM are to a VCS

18:07 rsynnott: not particularly, except that it has transactions, I would think

18:08 stuhood: the transaction is just how you add to the end of an object's history

18:15 technomancy: so it sounds like even though Google Code supports hg, there's still a lot of features that bitbucket has that Google doesn't?

18:26 yonatan: does anybody have a guess as to why all the slime-eval-*** functions don't show any output in my REPL buffer?

18:26 (does show up in *slime-events*)

18:27 technomancy: yonatan: like when you're calling those functions from elisp?

18:27 yonatan: i guess. i just hit ^X ^E

18:27 technomancy: yonatan: C-x C-e output goes to the minibuffer

18:28 yonatan: C-c C-c does the same

18:28 C-c C-k throws an exception

18:28 is there something else i'm supposed to use?

18:28 technomancy: I usually just use C-c C-c and C-c C-k.

18:29 yonatan: and it shows up in your repl?

18:29 technomancy: no, in the minibuffer

18:29 oh... you mean output like from println?

18:29 yonatan: yes

18:29 technomancy: rather than the output of the return value

18:29 gotcha

18:29 yonatan: or return value. nothing goes to my repl buffer

18:30 technomancy: the return value should show in the minibuffer. anything that gets written to *out* should show in the *slime-repl clojure* buffer

18:31 but it doesn't show at the very bottom; it shows above the last prompt

18:31 yonatan: hmm

18:31 i don't have an *out* or a *slime-repl clojure*. just *inferior-lisp*

18:31 cp2: Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

18:31 yonatan: i take it theres something wrong with my setup then?

18:32 technomancy: yonatan: it could be better. =) have you tried M-x clojure-install?

18:32 hiredman: clojurebot: the future?

18:32 clojurebot: hiredman: the fn created by future (like all fns) doesn't close over dynamicly scoped stuff

18:32 technomancy: that will set everything up the easiest way

18:32 yonatan: technomancy: you're kidding?

18:32 i'll try it right now

18:32 hiredman: clojurebot: literal [?] the future

18:32 clojurebot: 0

18:33 technomancy: yonatan: what you have will work, I'm just not sure what *out* gets hooked up to without the slime-repl configured.

18:33 hiredman: clojurebot: the future is Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

18:33 clojurebot: Ik begrijp

18:33 hiredman: clojurebot: tell me about the future

18:33 clojurebot: the future is Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

18:33 hiredman: clojurebot: the future is <reply>Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

18:33 clojurebot: Roger.

18:33 Chousuke: hiredman: bad joke is bad.

18:34 hiredman: cp2's fault

18:35 cp2: lol

18:35 not a joke

18:35 Chousuke: hiredman: feature request: in case of a fuzzy match, add something that indicates what the triggered factoid actually was

18:35 cp2: just an example of lexical ambiguity in english

18:35 hiredman: :(

18:35 cp2: could be fruit flies (as in the bug) like a banana

18:36 or fruit flies (verb) like a banana

18:36 technomancy: when you call .read on a reader and it expects an offset, does that offset count from the beginning or from the last place you read from?

18:36 hiredman: Chousuke: I think that would take away from the magic

18:36 Chousuke: hiredman: hm, good point

18:36 clojurebot: magic

18:36 clojurebot: Excuse me?

18:36 technomancy: cp2: yeah, english would be so much clearer if it used prefix notation. =)

18:36 cp2: haha

18:36 Chousuke: hiredman: see above :(

18:36 hiredman: ~jdoc java.io.Reader

18:37 Chousuke: prefix notation in english? how would that work

18:37 technomancy: hiredman: that doesn't specify how the offset parameter is interpreted

18:37 hiredman: technomancy: I wonder if it is implementation specific

18:38 technomancy: working directly with readers like this is pretty tiresome. is the streams stuff that rich talks about meant to address this?

18:38 hiredman: no

18:38 streams are not io streams

18:38 Chousuke: (say '(assert (= this (with-meta {:syntax 'clojure} english))))

18:39 hiredman: there are sort of like alternative lazy-seqs

18:39 they

18:39 technomancy: ah too bad; this stuff is crying out for a better abstraction. =)

18:39 cp2: oi Chousuke

18:39 i think thats worse :)

18:39 hiredman: technomancy: the scope stuff will help

18:40 a little

18:40 ~scope

18:40 clojurebot: scope is at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73838

18:40 technomancy: thanks; will take a look

18:40 hiredman: so you can have "self" closing resources

18:40 cp2: oh

18:40 thats neat

18:40 technomancy: interesting

18:42 AWizzArd: a propos resources.. when I have data out of which I want to create a huge string (say 1-2 gb) which I want to write to a file, is there then a way to (print ..) directly into that file instead of first creating that whole string in ram and then spitting it?

18:42 I would print chunks of a few chars up to a few MBs

18:42 Chousuke: bind *out* to a filewriter?

18:43 AWizzArd: can the writer function from clojure.contrib be used for that?

18:43 hiredman: AWizzArd: sure, use .write instead of print

18:43 AWizzArd: I just don't know what JVM classes to use and such, but maybe contrib already has it (duck-streams maybe)

18:43 hiredman: technomancy: in the simple form demo'ed there they are pretty easy to implement

18:44 duncanm: is DO the equivalent of BEGIN in Scheme?

18:44 i always forget that

18:44 hiredman: AWizzArd: duck-streams must have something for making Writers, use that

18:44 what does BEGIN do?

18:44 Chousuke: duncanm: is begin equivalent to progn in CL? :P

18:44 duncanm: yeah

18:44 Chousuke: then yeah

18:44 hiredman: technomancy: http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/9216e6b2f6c5402be06d093d01590a7dd33131c3/hiredman/horizon.clj

18:45 AWizzArd: hiredman: when I want to use .write instead of print, what class should the object have with which I use .write?

18:45 hiredman: I should move that into odds-and-ends and out of clojurebot

18:45 AWizzArd: is that one of these bufferedWriter beasts?

18:45 hiredman: AWizzArd: some kind of Writer

18:45 Chousuke: ,(if 1 (do (println "hey") (println "ho"))) ; I assume this is what you want

18:45 clojurebot: hey ho

18:46 hiredman: I don't think you use bufferedwriters so much

18:46 AWizzArd: hiredman: would duck-streams (with-out-writer ..) do?

18:46 hiredman: dunno, I haven't used duck-streams

18:46 AWizzArd: k

18:46 Chousuke: should work for you :/

18:47 that way, you can just use the print functions like usual but instead of the standard output, the stuff goes into whatever you specify. :)

18:48 technomancy: hiredman: nice to see clojurebot all grown up these days. =)

18:48 replaca: hiredman: hey, what do you think about making clojurebot be able to jump to the contrib autodoc pages? I could generate you a formatted index pages and hide it in the docs wiki (it ignores any files that don't end in wiki)

18:48 technomancy: back when I first joined the channel he was but an idea.

18:48 AWizzArd: ~def with-out-writer

18:49 kadaver: to pass something that is def'ed, is namespace/symbol or (namespace/symbol) correct?

18:49 Chousuke: (namespace/symbol) would be a function call :/

18:49 hiredman: replaca: sure

18:50 hmmm

18:50 replaca: hiredman: what format would you like? I think the info is namespace, var-name, url

18:50 hiredman: I would like to provide uniform acess to core and contrib

18:51 right now all it does for core is doc lookup and view source

18:51 ecyrb: hi all. clojure newb. I'm trying to proxy TreeNode to recursively build a tree from a list. Trouble is, I need to pass "this" so the children know their parent. How would I do this?

18:52 replaca: hiredman: I could have doc url & src url in the file, since I have them both available

18:52 ecyrb: er, I guess I mean seq instead of list. Old habits.

18:52 hiredman: (doc proxy)

18:52 clojurebot: class-and-interfaces - a vector of class names args - a (possibly empty) vector of arguments to the superclass constructor. f => (name [params*] body) or (name ([params*] body) ([params+] body) ...) Expands to code which creates a instance of a proxy class that implements the named class/interface(s) by calling the supplied fns. A single class, if provided, must be first. If not provided it defaults to Object. The interfa

18:53 replaca: hiredman: ya want csv, xml, json?

18:53 hiredman: ecyrb: well, easiest way, all the "methods" in a (proxy ...) are closures

18:53 so they can just close over stuff

18:53 replaca: json is good for me

18:54 Chousuke: isn't "this" implicitly available in proxy forms? :/

18:55 hiredman: Chousuke: yes, but he isn't really talking about "this"

18:55 he is talking about the parent node I assume

18:56 ecyrb: I would recomend using zippers (clojure.zip) for functional tree stuff

18:56 the java road will lead to pain

18:56 replaca: hiredman: cool, I'll get it building something and we can work from there

18:57 hiredman: Excellent

19:04 cp2: hrm

19:04 is there a sort of if-not-let

19:05 er wait

19:05 lol

19:32 replaca: actually, if-not is anaphoric; it assigns the result of the test to the variable "nil" which you can use to represent the result of the computation later

19:32 Cark: not quite true !

19:33 how about (if-not false ....

19:34 replaca: Cark: joking!

19:34 Cark: hehe yes

19:35 replaca: Cark: plus, mot places nil will do you pretty much the same as false so you'll usually be alright (counterexamples not accepted).

19:35 cp2: well what i meant to ask for was an if-let style function but with the branches in opposite order

19:35 then i realise what i said when i asked in here

19:35 realised*

19:39 kadaver: C:\clojure\classes>Exception in thread "Thread-3" java.lang.RuntimeException: ja

19:39 va.sql.SQLException: No suitable driver found for jdbc:derby:C:/clojure/progs/mp

19:39 3player/mp3.db

19:39 http://www.hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=4412#a4412

19:40 ^^ nyone can say how I need to pass around the database connection?

19:53 yonatan: technomancy: M-x install-clojure did the trick. Thanks!

19:54 technomancy: yonatan: cool!

19:54 tell all your friensd!

19:58 kadaver_: ^^ nyone can say how I need to pass around the database connection?

19:58 http://www.hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=4412#a4412

19:58 i missed if someone commented....

20:08 replaca: cp2: I understood. I was just amusing myself :-)

20:09 cp2: heh

20:25 ecyrb: hiredman: I figured it out. using something like (let [children nil, myProxy (proxy...), children (map myProxy childlist)] myProxy)

20:26 basically, in Java, you can recurse in a constructor passing "this" as a parameter to have your children know their parent

20:27 so in clojure I'm creating the chicken, the egg, and then the chicken where it came from. or something like that

20:27 hiredman: I am not sure what you are doing, but I feel confident that you are making a mistake

20:28 easiest way is (defn make-some-proxy [arg] (proxy [SomethingProxied] [] (some-method [] arg)))

20:29 kadaver: http://www.hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=4412#a4412

20:29 once again my internet...

20:29 hiredman: re-binding children like that will not change the value for children that your proxy form captures

20:29 ecyrb: yes, it does

20:29 hiredman: nah, it doesn't

20:29 ecyrb: just try (let [x 0 y x x y] [x y])

20:30 hiredman: sure, but it does not change the value that (proxy ...) captures

20:30 it is not assignment

20:30 cp2: ,(let [x 0 y x x y] [x y])

20:30 clojurebot: [0 0]

20:31 cp2: well

20:31 ecyrb: well, it seems to be. where can I post a code snippet and get a tiny url?

20:31 cp2: they will both be the same no matter what

20:31 so..

20:31 hiredman: ,(let [x 0 y (fn [] x) x 1] [(y) x])

20:31 clojurebot: [0 1]

20:31 hiredman: lisppaste8: url

20:31 lisppaste8: To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.

20:32 ecyrb pasted "build-tree" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79434

20:32 cp2: hehe

20:33 'kids'

20:33 hiredman: that does not do what you want

20:34 and don't use ArrayList

20:34 lisppaste8: ecyrb annotated #79434 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79434#1

20:35 ecyrb: you're right. It doesn't do what I want

20:36 hiredman: I know I am right

20:36 ecyrb: kids keeps its initial binding just like you said

20:36 hiredman: let is not assignment

20:38 lisppaste8: hiredman annotated #79434 "using closures" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79434#2

20:39 hiredman: you could possibly use (binding ...) to do something structurally similar to what you had, but there is little point in doing it

20:41 ecyrb: I don't quite follow yours as myProxy isn't bound...

20:42 hiredman: so?

20:42 oh

20:42 I see

20:42 you can rewrite kids as a function

20:43 (doc proxy)

20:43 clojurebot: class-and-interfaces - a vector of class names args - a (possibly empty) vector of arguments to the superclass constructor. f => (name [params*] body) or (name ([params*] body) ([params+] body) ...) Expands to code which creates a instance of a proxy class that implements the named class/interface(s) by calling the supplied fns. A single class, if provided, must be first. If not provided it defaults to Object. The interfa

20:43 ecyrb: actually, I think you might be right about binding.

20:43 hiredman: if you read the whole docstring (clojurebot's is truncated) this is bound to the object inside each method

20:45 why are you using TreeNode?

20:47 ecyrb: I'm trying to build a tree for use with a JTree. I know I don't have to use TreeNode, I just thought I'd try to learn something about clojure

20:48 hiredman: I think the best idea would be to move the logic for producing kids into it's own function, then memoizing that function

20:50 ecyrb: Can I do that inside of the proxy expression?

20:51 hiredman: do it in the let

20:51 (let [kids (memoize (fn [p] ...))] ...)

20:52 ecyrb: right... so how do the kids know who their parent is?

20:52 hiredman: (kids this)

20:53 hmmm

20:54 cp2: hiredman: whats a good/elegant way to expand nested lists

20:54 hiredman: ,(doc tree-seq)

20:54 clojurebot: "([branch? children root]); Returns a lazy sequence of the nodes in a tree, via a depth-first walk. branch? must be a fn of one arg that returns true if passed a node that can have children (but may not). children must be a fn of one arg that returns a sequence of the children. Will only be called on nodes for which branch? returns true. Root is the root node of the tree."

20:54 cp2: as in ((:foo :bar) (:baz) :boof)

20:55 oh nice

20:55 well

20:55 nvm

21:06 ecyrb: hiredman: Alrighty! I have something working now

21:06 Thanks for all of the help!

21:09 lisppaste8: hiredman annotated #79434 "zipper->TreeNode" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79434#3

21:10 hiredman annotated #79434 "zip->treenode usage" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79434#4

21:16 kadaver: how come clojure-code looks much uglier than common lisp?

21:29 http://www.hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=4412#a4416

21:32 if i paste all the code,300loc ,ayone wanna look?

21:35 why cant it find the driver? i psass the damn thing...

21:35 sql/transaction should set up the connection right?

21:51 bah im going crazy

21:51 this language sucks

21:51 was a mistake to write my player in it

21:53 Cark: sis you put the suitable jdbc driver in your class-path ?

21:53 did*

21:54 and can you instanciate it from the repl ?

22:01 cp2: lisppaste8: url

22:01 lisppaste8: To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.

22:02 cp2 pasted "*sizzle*" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79441

22:02 cp2: im stuck :|

22:02 Cark: you're trying to flatten ?

22:02 cp2: yes

22:03 Cark: there's an implementation of this by rickey somewhere

22:03 maybe in the controbs

22:03 contribs

22:03 cp2: http://markmail.org/message/56r3eflx4a6tasoe

22:03 ah

22:04 (let [s? #(instance? clojure.lang.Sequential %)]

22:04 weird

22:04 Cark: carefull that's pretty old and sequences changed a bit during the patch of doom

22:04 better check contrib

22:04 cp2: yeah will do

22:05 Cark: ~def flatten

22:05 cp2: http://www.google.com/codesearch/p?hl=en#oduOV9Ab97s/trunk/src/clojure/contrib/seq_utils.clj&q=flatten%20package:http://clojure-contrib\.googlecode\.com

22:05 got it

22:06 Cark: ahyes there it is conveniently placed in seq-utils =P

22:09 kadaver: ah

22:09 clojure doesnt suck anymore :P

22:09 Cark: that's you sucking less ! =)

22:09 gnuvince_: *zing*

22:10 Cark: hey, I'm going to bed, but if you have any more perf improvement suggestions, be sure to send them by way. Execution time is currently ~80s for Clojure vs ~12s for Java.

22:11 Cark: oh

22:11 i had a couple seconds better but that's it

22:12 still the same address ?

22:12 gnuvince_: yes

22:12 Cark: i'm on a new project right now, but i'll have a look

22:12 gnuvince_: no problem

22:12 If you think of something, let me know.

22:12 Cark: sure thing =)

22:13 gnuvince_: -Xprof and -Xrunhprof:cpu=samples both seem to report that ByteBuffer.position and Cons.first are two of the biggest culprits.

22:13 Cark: that's pretty low level

22:14 gnuvince_: yeah

22:14 at this point, if I want some improvements, I'll need to look at how I attacked the problem and see if I can't find a better way of doing it

22:14 Cark: exactly change the algorythm

22:15 but it's pretty simple as it is ...

22:15 gnuvince_: I think it is

22:15 Cark: you have to consider that the garbage collector is under stress with this kind of tests

22:15 not as much using java is my guess

22:16 gnuvince_: Well, I'm off to read about integrals and then sleep

22:16 See you later

22:16 Cark: i can't remember the switch to check that but you should look into it and see how much of this time is spent in the gc

22:16 hehe gnight !

22:16 i'm off to be too

22:17 to bed =/

22:24 kadaver: woot

22:24 anyone want an mp3player written in clojure?

22:24 Cark: post it on the mailing list =P

22:24 off to bed for real now !

22:24 kadaver: i dont like the code personally.

22:25 maybe it is just all the java interop that makes it look ugly

22:25 and force it into non functional land

22:28 cp2: they dont float down there

22:55 kadaver: my 300 LOC mp3player generates 2600 files...

22:55 .class files

23:02 durka42: one for each clojure function

23:03 hiredman: ,(doc subs)

23:03 clojurebot: "([s start] [s start end]); Returns the substring of s beginning at start inclusive, and ending at end (defaults to length of string), exclusive."

23:07 kadaver: is there no way to make an exe? right now I run a python script that passes everything on the command line

23:22 durka42: kadaver: java doesn't do exes. you can make jars.

23:31 kadaver: but jars arent executable, you need java blah

23:31 what i mean is really one click run

23:31 not necessarily .exe

23:32 durka42: windows is sometimes set up that way

23:32 if .jar is associated to Jar Launcher or whatever

23:34 kadaver: how do I make a jar in clojure?

23:46 how do I make a jar in clojure?

23:47 durka42: i am not sure; you could look at somebody's build.xml?

23:47 or even the one that comes with clojure

23:57 zakwilson: You can make executable jars by hand if you AOT compile Clojure and your code and package up the appropriate files from the classes folder in your jar. Using ant is probably better.

23:57 hiredman: I've just been using make

23:58 zakwilson: Every Windows machine I've tried it on executed a jar made that way. Obviously, you don't actually want to do it by hand most of the time.

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