#clojure log - Feb 16 2009

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1:07 technomancy: cooldude127: ping

1:17 cooldude127: more ideas on date handling: http://gist.github.com/65034

1:17 please comment (and anyone else who's interested); will try to get feedback on the mailing list tomorrow.

1:19 Chouser: keyword arg to later and earlier accept both singular and plural?

1:22 but the api looks nice. I'd use it.

3:19 Bracki: Can smaddy point me to a place where all the special character expresiions like #,@,` etc are explained?

3:21 ,#

3:21 clojurebot: Eval-in-box threw an exception:EOF while reading character

3:21 Bracki: ,(doc #)

3:21 clojurebot: Eval-in-box threw an exception:No dispatch macro for: )

3:24 xitam: Bracki: http://clojure.org/reader

3:27 Bracki: Aight, thx.

3:29 alinpopa: hey

3:29 'morning

3:29 is there a way to display current clojure's version ?

3:29 java -cp $CLOJURE_JAR:$CLOJURE_CONTRIB_JAR clojure.main

3:29 this is how I'm using it ...

4:21 alinp: ,(+ 1 2)

4:21 clojurebot: 3

4:23 eevar2: (+ 1 2)

4:23 clojurebot: 3

4:35 alinp: ,(doc recur)

4:35 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: recur in this context

4:35 alinp: ,(+ 1 2)

4:35 clojurebot: 3

9:22 cooldude127: damnit technomancy, why aren't you on here when i am?

9:24 Chouser: wouldn't it be great if there were some electronic communications mechanism that would hold your messages until the other person was available to read them?

9:24 cooldude127: Chouser: he emailed me already, i just desire a more active discussion

9:27 Chouser: heh, ok.

9:29 cooldude127: i'm curious about what other sort of representation he has in mind for dates internally

9:29 cuz the way i understand it, if you want to stick with pure clojure, you're using either lists, vectors, or maps (or struct-maps) to represent all your data

9:30 you can use objects if you dip into java

9:30 like do a gen-class

9:30 rsynnott: well, clojure has structs

9:30 which are effectively objects

9:30 Chouser: he could just use a Date object

9:31 cooldude127: Chouser: well, i wanted something more clojure-like. date objects are gross

9:32 i'm using maps at the moment, which allows keyword access to year, month, hour, etc.

9:32 (:year (today)) => 2009

9:32 Chouser: yep

9:32 I wasn't recommending anything, just speculating wildly.

9:33 cooldude127: yeah

9:33 but he seems to have ideas beyond maps, so i'm kinda wondering what he has in mind

9:34 i don't see any reason why maps should not be sufficient, aside from the fact that we can't customize how they print, which i'm hoping will be fixed at some point soon thanks to you, Chouser

9:34 Chouser: well, I'm not sure how likely that is to make it in

9:35 using a custom print method to make something that used to print as code to instead print as something that's not ... may not be a popular feature.

9:35 cooldude127: Chouser: why not? i'm just curious cuz that seems like a really useful patch. not all data looks like vectors and maps

9:37 Chouser: most object-oriented languages have a way to make objects print different ways, haskell has the Show type class, we need something :)

9:37 rsynnott: cooldude127: date objects handle a lot of nasty stuff for you

9:37 they're horrible because working with dates is horrible

9:37 Chouser: I'm still speculating here, but it seems to me to be sorta central to lisp that the things you print can be read again.

9:38 rsynnott: Chouser: well, depends

9:38 cooldude127: rsynnott: yes they do, i haven't been writing this totally from scratch, i

9:38 rsynnott: most things in common lisp aren't, for instance

9:38 cooldude127: 've been using the java Calendar api

9:38 Chouser: maybe if they print like #=(make-date 2009 02 16) or something. hm...

9:38 gnuvince: Morning guys

9:38 rsynnott: (arrays, symbols and lists are printed as readable, but pretty much nothing else)

9:39 Chouser: rsynnott: oh, really? well, then, maybe that patch has a decent chance after all.

9:40 cooldude127: Chouser: that would be rather acceptable actually. anything that's less verbose than a damn hash which happens to have a timezone object attached to it

9:40 s/hash/map/

9:40 i come from ruby world

9:40 rsynnott: actually, what cooldude127 is talking about looks very much like what the popular CL local-time library produces

9:41 (local-time:now) -> "@2009-02-16T11:52:16.692307-05:00"

9:41 but given that most things in Clojure ARE readable, it might not be appropriate

9:41 cooldude127: but is stuff like #=(date 2009 1 1) readable?

9:42 will that get read in as calling that function?

9:42 Chouser: yes

9:42 cooldude127: well there we go!

9:42 durka42: that sounds dangerous

9:42 Chouser: ,#=(sorted-map :a 1, :b 2)

9:43 clojurebot: {:a 1, :b 2}

9:43 durka42: from a user-editable data file standpoint

9:43 Chouser: durka42: it's a strange mode -- the function is called, but the args are not evaluated, just read.

9:43 gnuvince: What does #= do?

9:43 durka42: so those aren't really numbers?

9:43 ,#=(class 1)

9:43 clojurebot: java.lang.Integer

9:44 Chouser: no, they're really numbers, but...

9:44 ,#=(sorted-map :a (+ 1 4), :b 2)

9:44 durka42: ,#=(class (System/getProperty "java.class.path"))

9:44 clojurebot: clojure.lang.PersistentList

9:44 {:a 5, :b 2}

9:44 Chouser: hm.

9:44 durka42: ,#=(prn (System/getProperty "java.class.path"))

9:44 clojurebot: DENIED

9:44 cooldude127: Chouser: you liee

9:45 Chouser: cooldude127: aparently I do. I clearly have a weak grasp on it. The thing's not documented -- it's used internally by print-dup

9:45 durka42: ,#=(str (System/getProperty "java.class.path"))

9:45 clojurebot: "(System/getProperty \"java.class.path\")"

9:45 durka42: but it didn't do that one

9:45 although, it did when i tried to prn it

9:45 cooldude127: maybe it evaluates safe stuff

9:45 like math

9:45 idk

9:46 * durka42 doesn't like the idea of startup_info.ini containing #=(System/exit 1)

9:46 Chouser: or maybe my math was eval'ed in a later stage.

9:46 cooldude127: actually #=(sorted-map :a a) doesn't work either

9:46 a gets evaled

9:46 durka42: ,#=(list :a a)

9:46 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context

9:46 cooldude127: but #=(class a) gives symbol

9:46 durka42: ,#=(System/getProperty "java.class.path")

9:46 clojurebot: Eval-in-box threw an exception:System

9:47 Chouser: ,#=(str :a b)

9:47 clojurebot: ":ab"

9:47 durka42: only in the current namespace?

9:47 cooldude127: durka42: don't worry, that soooo doesn't work

9:47 Chouser: as I said, strange mode.

9:47 cooldude127: i tried #=(System/exit 1) and it threw an exception

9:47 Chouser: I wasn't lying about that part.

9:47 cooldude127: but only because of clojurebot's sandbox

9:48 cooldude127: it works in a regular repl

9:48 cooldude127: Chouser: no it doesn't

9:48 not on mine

9:48 Chouser: ,#=(java.lang.System/exit 1)

9:48 cooldude127: class not found System

9:48 oh

9:48 Chouser: ah!

9:48 sorry!

9:48 cooldude127: LOL

9:49 durka42: whoops

9:49 Chouser: shoot, I was sure it would catch that. :-(

9:49 durka42: hiredman: bat signal!

9:49 Chouser: well, nobody really promised that 'read' was completely safe.

9:50 cooldude127: lol

9:50 durka42: perhaps that is a bug

9:51 jbondeson: Chouser: didn't we have a similar conversion about reading having side effects last week?

9:51 cooldude127: Chouser: this is why i want this patch: this is not an acceptable printed date representation: {:type :clojure.contrib.chrono/Date, :year 2009, :month 1, :day 1, :zone "America/New_York"}

9:51 but this is acceptable: #=(date 2009 1 1)

9:52 Chouser: durka42: I don't know if it's a bug or not. I think this sort of thing is meant to work: #=(java.util.HashMap. {:a 1})

9:52 durka42: does clojurebot read things outside the sandbox?

9:52 i'm thinking it has to, if System/exit worked

9:52 Chouser: oh, I see -- a bug in clojurebot. could be.

9:52 I've never looked at his code.

9:53 durka42: his dispatch architecture is pretty nifty

9:53 cooldude127: yeah agreed

9:54 Chouser: jbondeson: i guess reading well-behaved text doesn't have side effects. :-)

9:54 jbondeson: hahaha

9:54 durka42: well, i'm thinking from an application standpoint it's nice to initialize settings by just (read-string (slurp "data-file"))

9:54 but that isn't safe

9:55 maybe this strange mode could incorporate a "safe list" of functions that are OK to call?

9:55 jbondeson: yeah... that's just not pretty

9:55 durka42: or namespaces

9:56 Chouser: this is odd, though, because I used to have a clojurescript repl that sent strings to my server to be read and compiled to JS

9:57 before I turned it on, I tried several such dangerous-looking #=() forms, and concluded it was safe enough.

9:57 durka42: hmm

9:57 Chouser: I wonder if I just completely failed to test it right.

9:57 durka42: or things could have changed

9:57 Chouser: anyway, at the moment I'm pleased to have turned that off. :-)

9:58 http://clojurescript.n01se.net/repl/ now uses an applet. You can do whatever you'd like to your own machine.

9:58 durka42: i wonder if this also punches a hole right through clojurebot's blacklist

9:58 #=(defn works in the repl

9:59 Chouser: i was wondering that too

9:59 durka42: however, i need to go now

9:59 Chouser: but #=(def x 1) doesn't. how odd.

10:00 durka42: well, def is a special form

10:00 defn is a macro

10:00 Chouser: right

10:01 durka42: i shall return

10:01 djpowell: Re dates, Joda Time, is a Java Date API that makes heavy use of immutable objects and is proposed for incorporation in Java 7. Probably worth a look.

10:01 hiredman: smooth guys

10:02 Chouser: hiredman: so sorry. :-(

10:02 I like clojurebot and i mean him no harm.

10:03 hiredman: :P

10:05 ~def defn

10:06 jbondeson: ,(assoc {} :bot-hater "Chouser")

10:06 clojurebot: {:bot-hater "Chouser"}

10:13 cooldude127: let's talk programming fonts! consolas vs. inconsolata

10:13 jbondeson: consolas

10:16 cooldude127: i used to use it, i've forgotten how they compare

10:16 jbondeson: very similar

10:16 cooldude127: and now i'm killing myself trying to find a download for consolas for mac

10:18 i may need to just install cabextract

10:19 jbondeson: the only real differences i can see is that inconsolata is a little more rounded..

10:19 cooldude127: idk i'm never satisfied

10:19 jbondeson: things like 'C' and '{'

10:24 cooldude127: and found it

10:43 man this room is dull

10:45 danlarkin: you're dull!

10:45 cooldude127: lol

10:46 pilkarn: to make an mp3player you just use a decoder, doe sthe OS has automatic "streamer" for video too, you just need the right decoder?

10:48 rsynnott: you killed the poor little bot?!

10:48 cooldude127: apparently i was not aware of the change that allowed defmulti to have a docstring without ugly metadata map

10:48 nice

10:48 Chouser: cooldude127: ah, I missed that too. thanks.

10:49 must have come along with per-defmulti hierarchies

10:49 cooldude127: Chouser: it was funny how i found it. i was writing a new multimethod, and i saw in the minibuffer that slime was showing doc-string? as one of the args

10:49 ayrnieu: no, it's older than that.

10:49 cooldude127: Chouser: what are these per-defmulti hierarchies you speak of?

10:49 Chouser: cooldude127: hm, nice. i don't have that.

10:50 cooldude127: Chouser: what are you using?

10:50 Chouser: nothing

10:50 cooldude127: Chouser: WHAT?

10:50 Chouser: (doc defmulti)

10:50 clojurebot: Creates a new multimethod with the associated dispatch function. The docstring and attribute-map are optional. Options are key-value pairs and may be one of: :default the default dispatch value, defaults to :default :hierarchy the isa? hierarchy to use for dispatching defaults to the global hierarchy; arglists ([name docstring? attr-map? dispatch-fn & options])

10:51 cooldude127: Chouser: is the clojure.org page for hierarchies updated with information about this?

10:51 i'm so lazy i could just check myself

10:51 Chouser: the web pages in general are meant to reflect the latest release, not svn HEAD (experimental branch docs notwithstanding). So my guess is no.

10:52 cooldude127: we have releases?

10:53 and it does cover make-hierarchy and such

10:53 Chouser: yeah, that's older.

10:53 cooldude127: oh ok. well that's enough

10:53 Chouser: latest release: http://code.google.com/p/clojure/downloads/list

11:07 hiredman: ,#=(java.lang.System/exit 1)

11:07 clojurebot: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission exitVM.1)

11:07 cooldude127: woo hoo

11:07 hiredman: Excelard

11:07 dreish: ,#=(num 1)

11:07 clojurebot: 1

11:07 dreish: Interesting.

11:08 hiredman: yeah

11:08 I just moved the (read ...) into the sandbox

11:08 dreish: Makes sense.

11:08 hiredman: where it should have been from the begining

11:10 cooldude127: well good then :)

11:11 Chouser: You're welcome for the test case.

11:11 cooldude127: lol

11:11 hiredman: :)

11:12 dreish: Anyone happen to know whether arg destructuring in the lazier branch uses the new rest, or next a.k.a. old rest?

11:13 Or better yet, a link where I can browse the branch's source online?

11:13 danlarkin: dreish: at google code

11:14 ~source

11:14 clojurebot: source is http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master

11:14 danlarkin: erf,

11:14 ~source rest

11:14 dreish: Ah, thanks.

11:14 danlarkin: that's trunk though

11:14 Chouser: dreish: next -- as in, nil punning is allowed

11:14 danlarkin: so change the branch in the browser

11:14 dreish: Oh yeah, it's pretty easy to find.

11:15 Chouser: ,(let [[a & b] [1]] (class b))

11:15 clojurebot: nil

11:15 dreish: Chouser: That's too bad. One of the things I was hoping for from this was easier porting of Haskell code.

11:15 Chouser: try that in a lazy branch repl to see it yourself.

11:16 you really need the extra laziness there?

11:16 dreish: Usually.

11:17 It's not that hard to rewrite things to be lazier, but I just think it would be nice if it could be almost a transliteration from Haskell.

11:17 cooldude127: dreish: that's what i was hoping the lazy branch would be


11:17 dreish: I'm not sure it would be nice enough to justify the cost of rewriting everything that uses destructuring, though, since that's harder than just s/rest/next/g.

11:18 cemerick: is there a canonical post in the group (or some other resource somewhere) that discusses the various printing mechanisms? (print-method, print-dup, etc) My grasp of the interactions in that area isn't up to snuff.

11:28 Chouser: cemerick: not that I know of. print-dup has hardly been discussed at all.

11:29 you can poke around in core_print.clj to get a sense of how the print-method works.

11:29 cooldude127: wait what's print-dup

11:29 (doc print-dup)

11:30 ~(doc print-dup)

11:30 clojurebot: No entiendo

11:30 cooldude127: ,(doc print-dup)

11:30 clojurebot: "; "

11:30 rhickey: dreish: yeah, maybe a destructuring variant [[a &rest b]] ?

11:30 cooldude127: well then

11:30 Chouser: (doc *print-dup*)

11:30 cemerick: Chouser: yeah, that's what I'm doing. I think I basically have it, but I'm guessing I'm not going to do something the "right way"

11:30 clojurebot: When set to logical true, objects will be printed in a way that preserves their type when read in later. Defaults to false.

11:30 cooldude127: ohhh

11:31 oh so like hashmaps will be hashmaps ands sorted-maps will be sorted?

11:31 Chouser: cooldude127: exactly

11:31 cooldude127: got it

11:31 Chouser: cooldude127: and java.util.HashMaps will be java.util.HashMaps

11:31 cooldude127: ok

11:32 Chouser: cooldude127: and System/exit will kill your bot

11:32 cooldude127: lol

11:32 Chouser: ,(binding [*print-dup* true] (prn (new java.util.HashMap. {:a 1, :b 2})))

11:32 clojurebot: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.util.HashMap.

11:33 Chouser: huh

11:33 cooldude127: ,(binding [*print-dup* true] (prn (new

11:33 java.util.HashMap {:a 1, :b 2})))

11:33 clojurebot: EOF while reading

11:33 Chouser: ,(binding [*print-dup* true] (prn (sorted-map :a 1, :b 2)))

11:33 clojurebot: #=(clojure.lang.PersistentTreeMap/create {:a 1, :b 2})

11:33 cooldude127: Chouser: you messed up by using new AND having a . after hashmap

11:33 Chouser: oh. indeed.

11:33 cooldude127: ,(binding [*print-dup* true] (prn (new java.util.HashMap {:a 1, :b 2})))

11:33 clojurebot: #=(java.util.HashMap. {:b 2, :a 1})

11:34 cooldude127: nice

11:34 the only way to change *print-dup* is to surround in binding, right?

11:35 Chouser: cooldude127: afaik, yes

11:36 cooldude127: yeah nothing else seems to work

11:36 cemerick: hah! Since my genbean impl inherits from PersistentStructMaps, I get a perfect serialized form for free when I print with *print-dup* bound to true -- now I just need to write a single 'create' fn. :-D

11:38 cooldude127: anybody know a way for a computer to determine eigenvalues/vectors without symbolic math?

11:50 dreish: rhickey: (re &rest) I was wondering about that, but looking at the destructure fn, I couldn't tell whether that would make it infeasibly complex.

11:50 It's already very big.

11:51 Chouser: dreish: that's a fun function, eh? :-)

11:51 dreish: Yes.

11:52 I'm just glad it happens at compile time.

11:52 Chouser: & is also supported by pre-destructuring fn (and loop?) forms, but I guess that wouldn't necessarily have to change.

11:54 dreish: Just when I thought I understood something ...

11:57 stuartsierra: Hi, all. In the lazy branch, I can't write (doall (map f c)), right?

11:57 It has to be (doall (seq (map f c)))?

11:57 silkarn: ayrnieu: you never answered yesterday, what is so bad about Haskell? it inspired Clojure a lot, I find Haskell to be very elegant in so many ways(althouhg the Io Monad is not my dearest friend always)

11:58 Chouser: stuartsierra: no, I think your first example is fine

11:59 stuartsierra: in what way do you think it might fail?

11:59 stuartsierra: Chouser: clojure.contrib.walk didn't work right in the lazy branch; that seemed to fix it.

12:00 But the problem only shows up when trying to use "are" in clojure.contrib.test-is.

12:01 Chouser: doall appears to return a LazySeq in the lazy branch

12:01 ayrnieu: silkarn, #haskell is a more suitable channel for a defense of haskell.

12:01 Chouser: ...although it still is fully realized first

12:02 stuartsierra: you must be fixing up test-is a bit as well?

12:02 stuartsierra: Chouser: Not changing anything, just trying to make it work in the lazy branch.

12:03 Chouser: just had to replace "rest" and "rrest" with next/nthnext.

12:03 Chouser: ok

12:05 stuartsierra: you have the assert-if-lazy-seq flag on?

12:05 stuartsierra: yes

12:07 The form with a problem is this: (are (= _1 _2) :a :a :b :c)

12:08 Chouser: I'm getting Unable to resolve symbol: _1

12:08 stuartsierra: That's what I get.

12:09 Until I change this one line in clojure.contrib.walk:

12:10 From (seq? form) (outer (doall (map inner form)))

12:10 To (seq? form) (outer (doall (seq (map inner form))))

12:12 Chouser: someone should branch contrib, even without any changes, so we have a place to put fixes as we find them.

12:12 * Chouser notes how much the word "someone" looks like "stuartsierra" to him.

12:12 Chouser: :-D

12:13 stuartsierra: Just trying to stay anonymous. :)

12:17 Chouser: I've not used 'walk' before, but calling postwalk-replace directly appears to do the right thing

12:17 cemerick: Is it the case that print-dup is meant to be a superset of the level of "readability" provided by "regular" print-method impls? I'm not clear on when I *wouldn't* just bind *print-dup* all the time, I suppose.

12:17 sorry, still trying to get some clarity, and the content I've found on the group so far isn't specific enough for me :-)

12:17 Chouser: cemerick: the output of *print-dup* is a bit ugly for, say, a repl.

12:18 I think that's the main difference.

12:18 or rather, the main reason for there being a difference.

12:18 cemerick: Chouser: ah, OK -- so print-method impls should be human-readable, and nominally clojure-readable, whereas print-dup impls should provide the highest-fidelity serialization possible?

12:18 Chouser: that's my understanding, yes.

12:18 rhickey: cemerick: right

12:19 stuartsierra: Chouser: yes. There's something very subtle going on in the interaction of walk, template, and test-is.

12:19 cemerick: OK, got that.

12:19 Chouser: and right there is the difference between the BDFL and a lowly hanger-on. :-)

12:19 stuartsierra: yes

12:20 cemerick: rhickey: what's the etymology of print-dup, BTW?

12:21 Chouser: cemerick: ah, I've got a link for that one if you give me a sec...

12:21 stuartsierra: FYI: I created /branches/lazy in contrib, in SVN rev. 472.

12:21 Chouser: stuartsierra: thanks!!

12:22 stuartsierra: Welcome. I'm not a big SVN user, but I think it's right.

12:23 Chouser: cemerick: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-06.html#19:57

12:25 * rhickey just got rid of Sequence in lazy

12:25 stuartsierra: rhickey: what does that imply?

12:25 cemerick: Chouser: ah-ha. Hey, if I had been following the channel then, we could have lengthened that conversation by at least another 20 minutes! :-P

12:26 rhickey: stuartsierra: things will be much simpler without 2 seq[uence] types, but the first/rest/next thing stays the same

12:27 bbl - will push code and modified docs - this looks like a winner

12:27 dreish: To trunk?

12:28 stuartsierra: Ok, I'll take a look after lunch. :)

12:28 Chouser: dreish: I would doubt it.

12:29 dreish: Oh, I see. Got rid of the Sequence class, pushing that to the branch.

12:29 I just don't want to miss the big exciting merge.

12:29 Especially since merges are such a clusterf*** in SVN.

12:31 pilkarn: can a tuple not be of length 3?

12:31 wrong channel

12:32 cooldude127: pilkarn: what language was that for? haskell? scala?

12:32 Chouser: python?

12:33 python as tuples, but getting one of length 3 would be trivial, so probably not.

12:33 cooldude127: Chouser: any language i know with tuples has no problem with any length

12:33 Chouser: haskell might require the number of args in the constructor function name, right?

12:33 cooldude127: Chouser: tuples in haskell are just like (1,2,3)

12:33 Chouser: hm.

12:34 dreish: What a riddle you have given us, pilkarn.

12:34 ayrnieu: ,(defn tuple [a b] [:tuple a b]) ;; no, they can only have two arguments.

12:34 clojurebot: DENIED

12:34 cooldude127: lol he may never come back

12:34 then we'll never know

12:35 Chouser: ~google can a tuple not be of length 3?

12:35 clojurebot: First, out of 289000 results is:

12:35 Tuples

12:35 http://greenteapress.com/thinkpython/html/book013.html

12:35 * Chouser is unconvinced.

12:35 dreish: Python it is, then.

12:35 cooldude127: lol

12:35 * dreish goes back to what he was doing before.

12:37 hiredman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuple

12:38 cooldude127: tuples should always be able to be whatever length

12:38 albino: In python a tuple of length 3 is as easy as (1, 2, 3)

12:38 WizardofWestmarc: yeah

12:38 just can't modify it after, have to make a new one :P

12:38 albino: he must have been doing something much more interesting

12:39 dreish: Oh? So you think you know better than Google's supercomputers, with their silicon chips and such?

12:40 albino: oh, if that was directed at me, then the answer is yes

12:42 gnuvince: ayrnieu: have you caught the blog post I promised?

12:42 ayrnieu: I did! Thanks.

12:42 cooldude127: richard cobbe's thesis about null in java looks like something i've been wondering about lately

12:43 gnuvince: ayrnieu: cool :)

12:47 Chouser: cooldude127: link?

12:47 cooldude127: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/scheme/pubs/dissertation-cobbe.pdf

12:48 Chouser: thanks

12:49 cooldude127: basically boils down to: why is java's type system so sucky?

12:49 at least as far as i have read

12:50 gnuvince: Couldn't they just copy C#'s nullable types?

12:50 int x; // Non-nullable type

12:50 int? x; // Nullable type

12:50 cooldude127: cuz at the moment, existing java code would EXPLODE

12:50 hiredman: Doctor of Philosphy in the field of Computer Science

12:50 cute

12:50 cooldude127: lol

12:52 gnuvince: See, that's why Rich should not feel bad about breaking Clojure *now* with rest/next and do the right thing *before* there's too much code out there that just cannot afford breaking changes

12:52 albino: how is a Nullable type different from using NPEs? In the Nullable type case you end up using an if instead of a try/catch, right?

12:53 cooldude127: albino: nullable types encode the information that this variable can or can't be null in the type system

12:53 gnuvince: albino: as I understand it (I don't really have any experience with C#), you cannot pass a nullable type to a function that expects a non-nullable type.

12:53 WizardofWestmarc: yeah I prefer Rich to feel like it's ready for prime time before 1.0 and it takes off to another level or two

12:53 albino: cooldude127: I figured that, still doesn't answer my question

12:53 gnuvince: The compiler will scream at you

12:53 WizardofWestmarc: although following the twitter traffic on clojure is interesting

12:53 it's escalating

12:53 cooldude127: albino: the compiler can now check that stuff

12:54 albino: NPEs are at runtime, but with nullable types the compiler can check if you're doing something wrong

12:54 gnuvince: WizardofWestmarc: link?

12:54 WizardofWestmarc: http://search.twitter.com/search?q=clojure

12:54 you can see all references to clojure with that

12:55 and it updates pretty fast based on tests where I've mentioned clojure and then waited for it to give the refresh message

12:59 te: i just found a cool clojure-related domain name

12:59 * te registers

12:59 te: trying to dfecide on the .org or the .com

12:59 maybe .org just for street cred

12:59 Chouser: injure.com is already taken

12:59 te: lol

12:59 ayrnieu: clojurebot: jure words

12:59 clojurebot: http://gist.github.com/54847

13:00 cooldude127: lol foreclojure

13:00 WizardofWestmarc: get both

13:00 domains are cheap

13:01 hiredman: but they pile up

13:01 WizardofWestmarc: I still regret not taking the .net and the .org for my domain because someone else grabbed the .net while I've barely used my .com and now wants the .com, which is just annoying :P

13:01 hiredman: like buying songs from itunes

13:01 te: mine isnt on there

13:01 WizardofWestmarc: domains are cheap UNTIL you have to renew 30 of them the same week

13:02 cooldude127: haha

13:02 hiredman: yeah

13:02 te: wow, 7$ for a .net

13:03 * te remembers when these things cost 50$

13:03 WizardofWestmarc: heh

13:03 they still cost $30+ if you buy through network solutions :P

13:03 and I think Yahoo! as well

13:03 cooldude127: whyyyy

13:04 te: because people dont know any better

13:04 WizardofWestmarc: because NS are *insert lots of swearwords here*? <_<

13:04 cooldude127: lol

13:04 WizardofWestmarc: actually what was ugly, last i heard yahoo charged something like $10 for the first year

13:04 but the auto renewals were something like $30

13:05 cooldude127: stupidddd

13:05 WizardofWestmarc: there's a reason I stick to GD

13:05 though right now I have the extra ~$10 for private entry

13:07 hiredman: I did not do the private thing, and got a few calls from people who wanted to make a website for me

13:09 WizardofWestmarc: heh really? bleh

13:10 I'll probably unprivate it once I launch what I'm going to put on the site

13:10 but not before

13:10 te: hehe I registered getclojure.com/.org

13:10 "I--I just need to get clojure *sob*"

13:11 WizardofWestmarc: you know, findclojure.com would be an amusing domain name as well, what with the many meanings ;-)

13:11 see how many typoing people looking for counciling you can sucker in >_>

13:11 te: lol id give them code

13:12 (defn your-mood [scale])

13:13 (Or maybe I'd proceed to tell them how their life is probably great compared to me-- I spent hours of my life learning something most people will never care about."

13:21 cooldude127: if i'm saying that a function in clojure returns a sequence, does that mean it returns a vector, list, etc. that can be used with the seq functions, or that it returns one of those that has had seq called on it already

13:24 WizardofWestmarc: I'd expect it to be the actual seq object, with who knows what underlying it

13:24 though technically I think that's same difference

13:25 cooldude127: WizardofWestmarc: ok, just wondering what the right way to document stuff is

13:25 WizardofWestmarc: actually I'm going to test something, one sec

13:26 hm

13:27 may be off, conjing a seq of a vect works like a list/seq, not a vector

13:27 hiredman: cooldude127: (class ...)

13:27 ,(class (map identity [:a :b :c]))

13:27 clojurebot: clojure.lang.LazyCons

13:28 WizardofWestmarc: although if you class a seq of a vect it returns persistantvector

13:28 hiredman: ,(class (reduce conj '() [:a :b :c]))

13:28 clojurebot: clojure.lang.PersistentList

13:28 WizardofWestmarc: well

13:28 APersistantVector$Seq

13:28 cooldude127: it's not as important anymore cuz i'm using map, so it's definitely a seq

13:28 hiredman: ~def seq

13:35 cooldude127: how big is the cutoff between array maps and hash maps?

13:35 Chouser: 32

13:36 cooldude127: oh

13:36 makes sense

13:36 * Chouser tests...

13:38 Chouser: that's wrong,

13:38 cooldude127: Chouser: close enough, 33 is a hashmap

13:38 but so is 31

13:39 Chouser: 9?

13:39 cooldude127: idk this is fine, it was more a curiousity

13:39 Chouser: 9 is an array-map, 10 is a hash-map.

13:40 cooldude127: ok good to know

13:40 Lau_of_DK: Good evening gents

13:40 danlarkin: Hi Lau!

13:41 got a name for me?

13:41 Lau_of_DK: c l a b a n g o !

13:41 danlarkin: no way man

13:42 that's worse than copter

13:42 Lau_of_DK: :(

13:55 rhickey: Sequence-free lazy is up, new doc at: http://clojure.org/lazy

13:56 Lau_of_DK: cool

13:59 * Chouser takes a deep breath.

13:59 clojurebot: svn rev 1283; [lazy] got rid of Sequence, (seq iseq) no longer an identity, ISeqs can be empty, PersistentList.EMPTY and LazySeq.EMPTY are ISeqs, rest returns ISeq

13:59 rhickey: No changes to code already ported other than to switch back to seq? since sequence? is gone

14:00 WizardofWestmarc: rhickey: so nil punning is still out in lazy?

14:00 rhickey: WizardofWestmarc: there is still next and seq

14:01 WizardofWestmarc: *nods*

14:01 * WizardofWestmarc is behind on lazy as I haven't gotten into the branch to play with it.

14:01 Chouser: why is (seq iseq) not being identity important?

14:02 rhickey: Chouser: it's just a change

14:02 hopefully it's not important

14:02 It was an important optimization inside Clojure itself, but I figured out another way

14:03 Chouser: ok

14:03 hiredman: the "Don't hang (onto) your head" fills me with non-specific dread

14:03 rhickey: but the change just covers (seq ()) -> nil, since () is a seq now

14:04 Chouser: "Sequence fns (map, filter etc) don't (necessarily) return seqs, but Sequences"

14:04 rhickey: hiredman: there's nothing new about that, just that it's less likely

14:04 cooldude127: sometimes i just love loop/recur, it's just so elegant sometimes

14:04 ayrnieu: cooldude - read The Little Schemer for a deeper appreciation :-)

14:04 WizardofWestmarc: I like it because it helps me catch when I don't have my TC in the tail position

14:05 since I'm so bad at doing that wrong :P

14:05 rhickey: Chouser: fixed - thanks

14:05 cooldude127: i like it because i can be doing a simple tail recursion where it calls to the function it's in, but if i need to have something done before that, i just wrap it in a loop and i don't need an auxillary function

14:10 stuartsierra: Ported clojure.contrib.duck-streams to lazy branch, SVN rev. 473.

14:10 rhickey: stuartsierra: lazy 1283?

14:11 Chouser: rhickey: why the use of the Cons constructor rather than just the cons fn, in the final example at http://clojure.org/lazy

14:11 stuartsierra: rhickey: yes

14:11 rhickey: stuartsierra: awesome!

14:12 stuartsierra: rhickey: That was the easy one. :)

14:12 rhickey: stuartsierra: good

14:12 Chouser: template/test-is/walk still misbehaving?

14:13 stuartsierra: Chouser: working on that next.

14:13 Chouser: ok

14:15 I think rhickey fixed it.

14:15 rhickey: Chouser: remnant, fixed in 1284 and doc - thanks

14:16 Chouser: rhickey: np!

14:16 rhickey: so, is this (1283+) simpler?

14:17 stuartsierra: Committed test_is.clj using next/nthnext (rev. 474). Still need to test 'are' & templates.

14:17 Chouser: Based on just reading the docs, I think nicely simpler, yes.

14:17 stuartsierra: it's fixed already.

14:18 stuartsierra: your "are" example now works fine as of 1283

14:19 stuartsierra: Chouser: so it does. Thanks, Rich!

14:19 clojurebot: svn rev 1284; [lazy] straight cons call in filter

14:20 gnuvince: rhickey: when do you plan to merge lazy into trunk?

14:21 Lau_of_DK: Has anyone here had some experience with the JMonkey Engine?

14:21 rhickey: gnuvince: RSN

14:21 gnuvince: rhickey: cool

14:22 I'm going to check my lib, but there are no calls to rest and only one to lazy-cons.

14:22 I think the conversion is gonna be real easy :)

14:27 stuartsierra: Committed lazy/.../json/write.clj (rev. 475); only renamed rest to next, all tests pass

14:29 hiredman: clojurebot: svn?

14:29 clojurebot: svn is http://clojure.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/

14:34 stuartsierra: Fixed re-partition in clojure.contrib.str-utils for lazy; SVN rev. 476

14:35 * danlarkin wonders if stuart sierra created a stuartsierra bot

14:35 stuartsierra: danlarkin: oh I wish

14:35 danlarkin: Really, though, these are trivial changes.

14:35 jbondeson: only a bot would say that!

14:35 Chouser: clojurebot could announce contrib commits too, couldn't he?

14:36 stuartsierra: Chouser: yes, that would be nice.

14:41 Lau_of_DK: Java question, when I want my Clojure proggy to have a structure like this class calc extends GCalc { public static void myadd(int x, int y) { ... } }, How do I mimic that in Clojure?

14:42 Chouser: static -- does that mean GCalc does not have a myadd method?

14:42 hiredman: depends, are you adding a new method or changing the behaviour of an existing method?

14:43 Lau_of_DK: Chouser: Yea

14:43 hiredman: Adding

14:43 hiredman: gen-class

14:44 Chouser: ~gen-class

14:44 clojurebot: No, Chouser, you want gen-interface + proxy

14:44 * Chouser giggles

14:45 Lau_of_DK: Come now boys, gen-class was sent into retirement by AOT right?

14:45 hiredman: nope

14:45 just changed

14:45 cooldude127: Lau_of_DK: it lives in (ns)

14:45 Lau_of_DK: hiredman: Can you give me an example?

14:46 hiredman: uh

14:46 jbondeson: you cannot extend objects with proxy, correct?

14:46 hiredman: the only place I used, I used it very badly

14:46 jbondeson: correct

14:46 jbondeson: time for SUPERPROXY

14:47 hiredman: http://gist.github.com/34229

14:47 macro generates standalone (gen-class ...) forms

14:47 Lau_of_DK: thanks

14:47 hiredman: (not in a ns form)

14:48 thearthur: does clojure contrib have something to write a bunch of ints or sequences of ints to an open file?

14:48 Chouser: thearthur: as ascii text?

14:48 Lau_of_DK: (spit ...)

14:48 or is it spew ?

14:48 (doc spit)

14:49 Chouser: ,(println [1 2 3 4])

14:49 hiredman: (binding [*out* (FileWriter. "somefile")] (println (range 100)))

14:49 clojurebot: [1 2 3 4]

14:49 thearthur: Lau_of_DK, tak!

14:49 Lau_of_DK: Selv tak min ven :)

14:50 thearthur: Chouser, as 64 bit ints

14:50 * hiredman cocks and eyebrow

14:50 Chouser: ah. I don't know of any such thing

14:53 stuartsierra: Committed seq_utils.clj in lazy branch; changed lazy-cons to lazy-seq, but haven't tested everything.

14:54 gnuvince: rhickey: if one wants to avoid unnecessary eagerness, should we stay clear of destructuring?

14:58 technomancy: heh; spew/slurp would be almost as awesome as spit/slurp

14:59 cooldude127: technomancy: woah you're here

15:00 gnuvince: technomancy: do you have an idea why slime-interrupt doesn't work in swank-clojure?

15:02 technomancy: gnuvince: I've not touched the internals of swank-clojure at all, just the setup stuff.

15:03 cooldude127: hey. did you take a look at that date stuff I sent you?

15:03 cooldude127: technomancy: yeah, in fact i was wondering what you had in mind for other internal representations

15:03 gnuvince: technomancy: ok

15:04 technomancy: does it work for you?

15:04 technomancy: gnuvince: I haven't tried it at all. I often just end up killing my inf-lisp buffer and restarting; I'm sure there's a better way though

15:05 need to spend some Quality Time with the slime manual

15:05 Bracki: What ecavtly does lazy-cat do?

15:06 technomancy: cooldude127: I think I need to learn how gen-interface works. I'm not so sure I like using just a map, but I'm not sure how one constructs a new data type.

15:06 cooldude127: Bracki: eventually concatenates two things

15:06 technomancy: idk, it feels anti-clojure to me to use anything else

15:06 gnuvince: technomancy: ok; I find it annoying to do all the (use) and (import) that I had

15:08 technomancy: cooldude127: well the problem I see is that if you're going to implement stuff like (later-than christmas 1 :month) and keep the internal representation as a map, you're going to need to do tons of useless translation back and forth between the two formats.

15:08 cooldude127: :( dates suck

15:09 Bracki: I'm trying to understand the fibonacci code using lazy-cat but I just don't get it.

15:10 cooldude127: Bracki: trust me, it's confusing

15:10 technomancy: cooldude127: well I really don't know if that's the right way, but I think it at least merits some more investigation

15:10 cooldude127: yeah you're right

15:10 i'm really not sure

15:10 technomancy: cooldude127: what do you think of the other functions I specced?

15:10 cooldude127: everything looked good to me

15:11 technomancy: cooldude127: mostly I tried to think of what I like best about date libs from Ruby

15:11 hiredman: Bracki: are sure it is lazy-cat? not lazy-cons?

15:11 Bracki: yes

15:11 technomancy: and translate that into non-OO-speak

15:12 hiredman: ,(lazy-cat '(1) '(2))

15:12 clojurebot: (1 2)

15:12 hiredman: ^- that is what lazy-cat does

15:12 cooldude127: technomancy: the one thing that i wonder about is having parse guess the format. i have no idea how to make that happen, java doesn't support it i don't think

15:12 lisppaste8: Bracki pasted "fibs with lazy-cat" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75585

15:13 hiredman: ah

15:13 so lazy-cat is lazy

15:13 so is map

15:13 so that turns into a lazy seq of (0 1 ..promise to compute the rest..)

15:13 Bracki: So every element is evaluated when it is taken right?

15:14 hiredman: yes

15:14 cooldude127: Bracki: yes, otherwise if they were all evaluated now, that would go infinitely

15:14 hiredman: so it sort of rolls over on itsself

15:14 technomancy: cooldude127: well I was thinking of trying each of the known formats in order of likelihood until a sane result was reached

15:14 cooldude127: yes

15:14 technomancy: but I don't know if that would work

15:14 a smarter approach may be necessary

15:14 Bracki: Alright lets say I do (take 4 fibs). What happens for 3 and then 4?

15:14 cooldude127: technomancy: yeah i'm not really sure how to do that. tho ruby is open source, maybe see how it does it

15:15 hiredman: well, the map happens

15:15 technomancy: cooldude127: yeah, but that part's in C... ugh! =)

15:15 cooldude127: Bracki: your head explodes trying to understand it

15:15 technomancy: what about rubinius?

15:15 technomancy: do they have that working? wouldn't it be in ruby?

15:15 technomancy: cooldude127: worth a shot. that's lower-priority than most of the other functions though

15:15 cooldude127: yeah

15:15 hiredman: the map is on fibs which is (0 1 ..promise to compute the rest..) and (rest fibs) which is (1 ..promise to compute the rest..)

15:16 and map is mapping +

15:16 cooldude127: Bracki: so you end up with (0 1 (+ 0 1) (+ 1 1) ...)

15:16 it's scary how it works

15:17 hiredman: use the substitution model

15:20 cooldude127: i'm doin it! i'm writing a damn symbolic math system in clojure

15:20 i've made the namespace

15:20 there's no going back

15:20 jbondeson: cooldude127: DOOOON'T DOOOO ITTT

15:20 cooldude127: jbondeson: I MUST

15:20 jbondeson: there's no going back after this

15:20 cooldude127: lol

15:21 i have to, it will make everything easier

15:21 jbondeson: it's like killing a man, once you write a symbolic math library you're never the same

15:21 cooldude127: lol

15:21 jbondeson: have you done it?

15:21 jbondeson: no, but i've... seen things... things no man should have to

15:21 cooldude127: haha

15:22 well in the name of all that is holy, i'm telling infix to go jump off a bridge

15:22 so that should eliminate at least a few problems

15:22 technomancy: "I knew the risks!"

15:22 (http://qwantz.com/archive/001406.html)

15:23 cooldude127: lol

15:24 jbondeson: cooldude127: it's not sybolic math if you throw out the most common notation!

15:24 cooldude127: jbondeson: fuck infix! i don't love it. all i want is to have variables in my stuff

15:25 i'll do what i want

15:25 jbondeson: "Reality is what *I* define it to be!"

15:25 cooldude127: EXACTLY

15:26 if i want to use prefix notation, damnit i will!

15:26 jbondeson: RPN is for calculators and COMMIES

15:26 cooldude127: haha

15:26 WizardofWestmarc: who says the calculators aren't commies?

15:27 jbondeson: their both after our precious fluids

15:27 they're even

15:32 pilkarn: how do I do if I want to call a Clojure-function from Java? I do compile with gen-class to generate class-files and then I import what? the namespace and refer to it like namespace.function(params); ?

15:37 Bracki: Does anybody have some pointers to an easy parser written in Clojure? I'm about to write a Markdown parser.

15:38 Or rather as far as I get tonite.

15:38 danlarkin: Bracki: http://github.com/joshua-choi/fnparse/tree/master

15:38 pilkarn: how do I make (System/exit 0) not kill the repl?

15:39 danlarkin: pilkarn: why do you want to do that?

15:39 gnuvince: pilkarn: don't call it?

15:39 Bracki: danlarkin: I meant *easy* ;)

15:39 technomancy: quote it. =)

15:40 gnuvince: pilkarn: http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/System.html#exit(int)

15:40 danlarkin: Bracki: it's a steep, but short, learning curve

15:40 gnuvince: It terminates the JVM

15:41 danlarkin: Bracki: much more fun than reading a string char-by-char, believe me

15:42 gnuvince: Or having a regex mess

15:42 briancarper: Bracki: I was actually starting to write a Markdown parser too. I was going to use ANTLR. Didn't get very far though.

15:42 Bracki: I prefer the regex mess then.

15:43 briancarper: The original Markdown.pl was a regex mess, and if you make a proper parser with a proper grammar, it will probably break compatibility. So I've read.

15:44 technomancy: heh

15:47 Bracki: Well who needs a Markdown parser anyways...

15:52 gnuvince: if you go with the regex mess, you can probably just copy markdown.pl and be done with it in less than 4 hours

15:54 Bracki: That's even harder to read...

15:55 gnuvince: fnparse then :)

15:55 Bracki: No way, cause my Clojure is less than basic and I don't understand anything thats happening there...

15:56 danlarkin: Bracki: it's not too difficult :)

15:56 Bracki: Considering that the lazy-cat fibs stuff makes my head explode it is.

15:56 danlarkin: do you know much about formal grammar or automata?

15:57 Bracki: I did.

15:58 danlarkin: then it's a breeze, you build rules from the bottom up to match bigger and bigger parts of the markdown spec

15:58 like you'd start with a whitespace rule

15:58 Bracki: But I wouldnt know how to handle multiple lines.

15:59 danlarkin: well if you want to match a newline then use a rule to match \newline

15:59 if you don't, then just... don't match them

15:59 see? easy :)

16:00 jbondeson: heh

16:00 there's a reason people use parser-generators

16:00 briancarper: Parsing Markdown requires at least two passes, I think. One to extract the links first.

16:00 danlarkin: because they're small minded!

16:01 jbondeson: danlarkin: either that or efficiency minded

16:01 danlarkin: jbondeson: parser combinators can run in polynomial time

16:02 if they use memoization correctly

16:02 fnparse doesn't, but it could

16:06 Bracki: Hm, so how do I replace stuff in a string?

16:08 technomancy: (doc re-sub)

16:08 clojurebot: hey!

16:08 clojurebot: excusez-moi

16:08 technomancy: clojurebot: (doc re-sub)

16:08 clojurebot: No entiendo

16:08 danlarkin: it's in str-utils I believe

16:08 technomancy: clojurebot: (use 'clojure.contrib.re-sub)

16:08 clojurebot: clojure is a very attractive hammer with a nice heft to it

16:08 technomancy: clojurebot: (doc clojure.contrib.re-sub)

16:08 clojurebot: clojure is cheating

16:08 hiredman: ,(use 'clojure.contrib.re-sub)

16:08 clojurebot: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/re_sub__init.class or clojure/contrib/re_sub.clj on classpath:

16:08 technomancy: bah

16:09 ,(doc clojure.contrib.str-utils)

16:09 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: clojure.contrib.str-utils in this context

16:09 hiredman: ,(use 'clojure.contrib.str-utils)

16:09 clojurebot: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/str_utils__init.class or clojure/contrib/str_utils.clj on classpath:

16:09 technomancy: ,(doc clojure.contrib.str-utils/re-sub)

16:09 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: clojure.contrib.str-utils/re-sub in this context

16:09 hiredman: *shrug*

16:09 jbondeson: clojurebot is anti-contrib

16:09 technomancy: jbondeson: yeah, when was the last time he contributed a patch anyway? slacker.

16:10 jbondeson: clojurebot: sharing is caring

16:10 clojurebot: 'Sea, mhuise.

16:11 cooldude127: clojurebot: sharing?

16:11 clojurebot: sharing is caring

16:11 cooldude127: lol

16:12 jbondeson: he'll be ditching us and teaching preschoolers in no time

16:12 technomancy: is this an appropriate use of cons? (str-join "\n " (cons "You are carrying:" @*inventory*))

16:13 Bracki: re-gsub is it.

16:24 pilkarn: (fn [[x y] z](y (* x x))) isnt that allowed?

16:24 , ((fn [[x y] z] (* x y)) [10 20])

16:24 clojurebot: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--933$fn

16:25 pilkarn: how do I destructure there

16:25 , ((fn [[x y]] (* x y)) [10 20])

16:25 clojurebot: 200

16:25 pilkarn: ah

16:26 Bracki: zomg the markdown.pl code is really awful.

16:27 ayrnieu: where is it?

16:27 hiredman: ~google markdown.pl

16:27 clojurebot: First, out of 59600 results is:

16:27 Daring Fireball: Markdown

16:27 http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/

16:27 ayrnieu: OK. Is that what you're looking at, Bracki?

16:29 gnuvince: fnparse isn't looking so bad now, is it?

16:30 Bracki: Yeah but the whole detabbing unspacing stuff is even worse in a grmammar for my taste

16:30 ayrnieu: yes

16:30 trying to translate the _detab subrotuine

16:30 http://code.google.com/p/python-markdown2/source/browse/trunk/lib/markdown2.py#386 This one is easiert to understand.

16:31 stuartsierra: Or just use http://sourceforge.net/projects/markdownj/

16:32 ayrnieu: oh, I was expecting something written in perl4. This this OK.

16:32 Bracki: stuartsierra: Yeah, but the point is to learn clojure.

16:32 ayrnieu: But why are you reading the code anyway? Implement the documentation.

16:33 stuartsierra: Bracki: ok, go for it!

16:33 Bracki: ayrnieu: true

16:33 technomancy: Bracki: I hate to discourage you, but I'm not sure that's a great first project for clojure.

16:34 skogs: there is also a haskell parsec like library in google groups files

16:34 technomancy: it doesn't seem to address any of the language's strengths

16:34 skogs: its based on clojure.contrib.monads code

16:34 Bracki: technomancy: probably not, but project euler is boring.

16:35 technomancy: Bracki: I had a lot of fun implementing a game.

16:35 Bracki: What kinda game? a MUD thingy?

16:36 technomancy: ~mire

16:36 clojurebot: Huh?

16:36 technomancy: Bracki: yeah, exactly: http://github.com/technomancy/mire/tree/master

16:36 pilkarn: how do you do extends or implments from Clojure?

16:36 hiredman: ~mire is http://github.com/technomancy/mire/tree/master

16:36 clojurebot: Alles klar

16:36 pilkarn: how do I make (System/exit 0) not kill the repl?

16:37 how do I do if I want to call a Clojure-function from Java? I do compile with gen-class to generate class-files and then I import what? the namespace and refer to it like namespace.function(params); ?

16:37 Bracki: technomancy: Ah, saw that yesterday while browsing a friends following list on github.

16:39 stuartsierra: pilkarn: if you declare your method as static in gen-class.

16:40 Bracki: The thing is, functional programming isn't made for me. I like filter,map and list comprehensions but I have those in Python as well ;(

16:40 pilkarn: Bracki: it takes time

16:40 WizardofWestmarc: you don't have the same guarantees of data safety though

16:41 pilkarn: ayrnieu: can you explain to me why you think all Haskell code is useless?

16:41 hiredman: Bracki: what about it turns you away?

16:41 Bracki: The special characters and the lack of coherent docs.

16:42 hiredman: eh? that doesn't seem to be a functional programming issue

16:42 Bracki: No, but I makes code even less readable for my taste.

16:43 hiredman: *shrug*

16:43 technomancy: Bracki: you get used the special characters pretty quickly

16:44 give it a week or so

16:44 Bracki: Or rather what turns me away is, I don't have any problems to solve that require functional programming.

16:44 technomancy: the docs will take longer than a week, of course

16:44 ah! that is a little harder to address. =)

16:45 Bracki: It has either been solved or turns out to be too hard.

16:45 WizardofWestmarc: the thing is, learning the functional style can arguably make even your non-functional programming better

16:45 stuartsierra: Nothing *requires* functional programming, but it can be very concise and elegant.

16:45 hiredman: I see you have been misinformed, all problems require functional programing

16:45 WizardofWestmarc: because of the new way it teaches you to think

16:45 stuartsierra: Yes. :)

16:46 technomancy: but coming up with a learning project can be tricky; no doubt about that.

16:46 Bracki: That's alright. I did a fair bit of scheme/guile but it's not how I tick.

16:46 hiredman: (ha ha guile)

16:47 cooldude127: anything involving math is more fun in a functional language

16:47 :)

16:52 pilkarn: does java have an import as statement? it is either import java.io.*; then File or java.io.File ?

16:52 import java.io.* as I; I.File would be better, as in Python

16:54 stuartsierra: pilkarn: No, Java doesn't have package aliases.

16:55 Lau_of_DK: Whats the syntax for gen-class' :expose ?

16:55 I need to expose com.jme.app.SimpleGame's protected method getRootNode

16:55 How do I do ?

16:55 The things that you do ?

16:56 hiredman: why functional programming matters is <reply>http://www.math.chalmers.se/~rjmh/Papers/whyfp.pdf

16:56 er

16:56 ~why functional programming matters is <reply>http://www.math.chalmers.se/~rjmh/Papers/whyfp.pdf

16:56 clojurebot: You don't have to tell me twice.

16:57 jbondeson: i tell yeah, clojurebot just gets more uppity by the day...

16:57 hiredman: Lau_of_DK: http://clojure.org/api#gen-class has a bit about :expose

16:57 stuartsierra: Lau_of_DK: I think you want :exposes-methods

16:57 Bracki: Well, more Euler than. What's sqrt in clojure?

16:57 hiredman: ,(Math/sqrt 25)

16:57 clojurebot: 5.0

16:58 Lau_of_DK: typical rich, fancy documentation, no examples for dumb folk

16:58 hiredman: but, uh, Math/sqrt is a normal java static method, so you cannot just pass it a BigDecimal or what not

17:00 stuartsierra: Lau_of_DK: protected methods are automatically exposed by gen-class.

17:00 pilkarn: stuartsierra: how? (declaring gen-class method static)

17:00 hiredman: ah

17:00 :exposes is for fields

17:01 stuartsierra: yes

17:01 pilkarn: Lau_of_DK: whatis SimpleGame?

17:01 Bracki: When should I use a Macro?

17:01 hiredman: for manipulating code

17:02 (as data)

17:02 Lau_of_DK: pilkarn: google JMonkeyEngine

17:02 stuartsierra: pilkarn: (gen-class ..... :methods [#^{:static true} [methodName [param types] return-type]]

17:02 I think

17:03 jbondeson: is clojure.contrib.math borked for anyone else?

17:03 hiredman: Bracki: for example, to talk about pointless symbols, I have a macro that transforms (a � b) to (comp a b)

17:04 clojurebot: svn rev 1285; [lazy] updated docs

17:04 hiredman: normally (a � b) would try and apply the function 'a' to '�' and 'b'

17:05 but the macro gets access to (a � b) as a list of symbols, and deletes the � symbol and cons the comp partial onto the front of the list

17:05 (actually it uses a zipper, so it doesn't really cons onto the front)

17:09 er

17:09 "comp partial"

17:09 hah

17:13 Bracki: What is between (a and b). Unicode/putty issues.

17:13 Chouser: apparently an empty rectangle.

17:13 cooldude127: a dot

17:15 hiredman: nah

17:15 it is a interpunct

17:15 technomancy: it's a middle-dot rather than a period

17:15 hiredman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpunct

17:19 Chouser: I once saw an guy get interpunked

17:19 hiredman: ashton sent him an email?

17:19 jbondeson: did he get composed?

17:19 Chouser: hiredman: exactly

17:22 durka42: was clojurebot's read-time vulnerability already discussed?

17:22 Chouser: and solved

17:22 though not the underlying question of whether read should allow such things

17:22 rhickey: everyone good with lazy branch?

17:23 * Chouser starts chanting like a drinking game, "Merge! Merge!"

17:23 jbondeson: bwahaha

17:24 rhickey: Chouser: I feel good about it, have no idea how best to get it in trunk without major breakage

17:24 jbondeson: embrace the chaos ;)

17:24 Chouser: I was planning another blog post -- I have what I think is a nice setup here for running any of the different branches on a whim

17:25 It doesn't currently handle the contrib branch, but I was thinking that could be worked in too.

17:26 lisppaste8: Bracki pasted "What's wrong with this primality test?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75598

17:27 Chouser: but I'm not sure there's any value in that once the future is no longer uncertain. People can choose to upgrade now or later, but the end result is the same. *shrug*

17:27 WizardofWestmarc: there could be major change branches in the future as well

17:27 so the info is still useful even if the current branches get merged into trunk

17:28 Chouser: oh, I see. sure

17:28 hiredman: Bracki: I think you need sqrt+1

17:28 durka42: ,(empty? nil)

17:28 clojurebot: true

17:28 durka42: ^ that is Bracki's problem

17:28 Chouser: but I guess I was thinking the benefit of keeping trunk un-broken (unbreaking?) for now is hardly anything once we know lazy branch is the future.

17:28 durka42: ,(empty? (seq nil))

17:28 clojurebot: true

17:29 durka42: wait, nevermind

17:31 lisppaste8: Bracki annotated #75598 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75598#1

17:31 hiredman: yeah

17:31 change the "int" to an inc

17:32 durka42: nice one-char fix

17:33 Bracki: Cool.

17:34 jbondeson: still technically not correct because (is-prime? 2) => false

17:35 Bracki: Nitpicker ;)

17:36 rhickey: SVN wizards - how do I (best) merge this lazy stuff back into trunk?

17:36 jbondeson: number theory is serious business

17:38 rhickey: unfortunately i've always done big merges in svn by letting svn have a go and using a really good diff tool to resolve the conflicts.

17:42 danlarkin: make sure you're using svn 1.5! It has merge tracking built-in

17:42 Bracki: Hm it's getting late, how do I break or return?

17:42 hiredman: uh

17:43 you don't

17:43 jbondeson: danlarkin: that would not be helpful only if he had it before he branched lazy off ;)

17:43 hiredman: how are you "looping"

17:43 ?

17:43 Bracki: Well take the prime code and add the explicit check for 2.

17:43 hiredman: ah

17:43 just wrap it in an if

17:44 (if (= x 2) true (filter ...))

17:44 Bracki: Argh, I closed the bracket to early...

17:44 durka42: what if x is 1?

17:45 Bracki: After the true.

17:45 danlarkin: jbondeson: :-o

17:45 * jbondeson has had the pain of pre-1.5 branches post-1.5

17:46 Bracki: durka42: Since I do an empty? on an empty list then its true.

17:47 durka42: but is 1 prime? ;)

17:47 jbondeson: durka42: no.

17:47 iirc

17:48 hiredman: prime is not evenly divisble by any number other then 1 and itsself

17:48 hmm

17:49 I am pretty sure 1 is not prime, but that def sounds different

17:49 ayrnieu: you could also state it computationally: a number is prime if it is not divisible by any of the primes you've come across.

17:50 durka42: that's a seive, isn't it

17:50 jbondeson: hiredman: it excluded because it screws up factoring

17:50 hiredman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_number#Primality_of_one

17:51 Yeah.

17:51 ayrnieu: yes, you can also ask what it means to factor a number. Reducing a factor from a non-prime gives you a new number -- that is, you're actually reducing the non-prime with the act.

17:51 rhickey: cat out of bag - Clojure on CLR: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/54571c9b8f625dba

17:51 jbondeson: "We don't like it cause it screws up our other pretty theories"

17:54 it was bound to happen. countdown until the next round of "you need a language spec"

17:54 clojurebot: svn rev 1286; [lazy] smarter ASeq and LazySeq isEmpty()

17:54 ayrnieu: jbondeson - glass is technically a liquid. But you can't drink it, you can't pour it into a container, it doesn't take the shape of its container to any extent; you can also do things to it that would make no sense given any other 'liquid'.

17:54 rhickey: Subversion command-line client, version 1.4.4.

17:55 jbondeson: rhickey: yeah, you're going to have a bit more manual merging.

17:56 Bracki: I give up on prime factorization for tonite.

17:59 Don't know how to create ISeq from: BigInteger

18:02 zargon_: ad full lazy seqs: I'm a bit worried about the proposed "next" semantics. For Java programmers this would definitely mean "next element" as with Java iterators

18:02 blbrown: ,paste

18:02 zargon_: I would even prefer typing "next-seq" ...

18:02 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: paste in this context

18:02 blbrown: ~paste

18:02 clojurebot: lisppaste8, url

18:02 lisppaste8: To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.

18:03 ayrnieu: zargon, do you want to forever type 'next-seq' so that people who've spent all of a day with the language will wonder WTH 'next-seq' means instead of wondering, with all the other unfamiliar parts in context, what 'next' means?

18:03 rhickey: zargon_: iterator next both gets next element and moves iterator, Clojure gives you next iterator

18:04 lisppaste8: blbrown pasted "Clojure...Im doing it wrong" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75603

18:05 blbrown: anybody have any code improvements for that. I basically just want to have a count of number times a token occurs

18:05 hiredman: hmm

18:05 I would use a line-seq

18:05 (doc line-seq)

18:06 clojurebot: Returns the lines of text from rdr as a lazy sequence of strings. rdr must implement java.io.BufferedReader.; arglists ([rdr])

18:06 hiredman: and just reduce over the line-seq

18:06 blbrown: hiredman, what about the 'map' part of it, that is the most important code

18:08 zargon_: rhickey: I really really appreciate your opinion, I just read the 63 posts on the mailing and thought "damn" rich is right on the "tail" proposal (not corresponding with first, "head" would be the right peer). But it would convey the right semantics I think ...

18:10 hiredman: blbrown: nested lets are kind of nasty and often unnesassary

18:10 rhickey: zargon_: I guess my feeling is a functional iterator like seq is so different from a stateful one like Iterator, there are bigger problems than the meaning of next - it could never be the same as Java's

18:10 blbrown: sigh

18:11 zargon_: rhickey: don't you think "next" is also tainted in colloquial sense?

18:11 hiredman: (doc zipmap)

18:11 clojurebot: Returns a map with the keys mapped to the corresponding vals.; arglists ([keys vals])

18:11 WizardofWestmarc: what about just using... frequencies I think it is? and then looking for the occurancies of your tokens within the map?

18:11 Bracki: What yields the last element of a list?

18:11 zargon_: "give me the next ONE"

18:12 blbrown: WizardofWestmarc, is that for me, that is what I need, where is frequencies

18:12 WizardofWestmarc: in clojure contrib, forget which lib

18:12 technomancy: some projects still using centralized version control perform merges in an external DVCS and then import them back into SVN... that's always an option if the merging gets hairy

18:12 hiredman: (map #(.group m %) (range 6))

18:12 technomancy: Emacs did this with Arch and CVS before git was around.

18:12 WizardofWestmarc: someone mentioned it recently but haven't had a chance to dig through the code for it

18:13 hiredman: (map #(keyword (.group m %)) (range 6))

18:13 WizardofWestmarc: and Bracki: only thing I can think of is (nth coll (- (count coll) 1))

18:13 Bracki: Or the largest?

18:14 WizardofWestmarc: largest in a list?

18:14 Bracki: yes

18:14 WizardofWestmarc: (reduce max coll)

18:14 technomancy: anyway, I'm in favour of merging the lazy branch as soon as possible

18:14 hiredman: WizardofWestmarc: apply

18:14 ,(apply max [ 34 2 291 0 53])

18:14 clojurebot: 291

18:15 WizardofWestmarc: ah ha

18:15 fair enough!

18:15 rhickey: so I just ran svn merge trunk lazy and got only Us and As, no diff popped up, and it builds!

18:15 I wonder if it did anything?

18:15 hiredman: hmmmm

18:15 WizardofWestmarc: look at a file that you know what it should look like

18:16 hiredman: btw, at least on that small a list reduce is faster then apply

18:16 hiredman: interesting

18:17 WizardofWestmarc: not sure if that holds up across larger collections

18:17 hiredman: ,(import 'java.util.Collections

18:17 clojurebot: EOF while reading

18:17 hiredman: ,(import 'java.util.Collections)

18:17 clojurebot: nil

18:17 hiredman: ,(import 'java.util.LinkedList)

18:17 clojurebot: nil

18:18 hiredman: ,(let [x (LinkedList. (range 10000)) _ (Collections/shuffle x)] (time apply max x))

18:18 clojurebot: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$time

18:18 WizardofWestmarc: also blbrown: lemme find the old post in the google group with a short/fast frequencies function

18:18 hiredman: ,(let [x (LinkedList. (range 10000)) _ (Collections/shuffle x)] (time (apply max x)))

18:18 clojurebot: 9999

18:18 "Elapsed time: 42.059 msecs"

18:19 hiredman: ,(let [x (LinkedList. (range 10000)) _ (Collections/shuffle x)] (time (reduce max x)))

18:19 clojurebot: 9999

18:19 "Elapsed time: 7.435 msecs"

18:19 hiredman: ouch

18:19 ~def max

18:19 heh

18:20 max uses reduce interally anyway

18:21 WizardofWestmarc: blbrown: http://bit.ly/kJxFl

18:22 hiredman: true but that only matters if you feed it individual elements ;-)

18:24 hiredman: I do find the disparity odd because apply max and reduce max both use reduce

18:24 blbrown: WizardofWestmarc, gracias

18:25 WizardofWestmarc: blbrown: np, I needed that function a while back for stuff I'm currently working on so I happened to have it bookmarked in delicious ;-)

18:25 hiredman: I guess because it is (reduce max (max x y) more)

18:26 WizardofWestmarc: hiredman: hm, certainly possible. Either way it's a useful bit of info

18:26 hiredman: Yes.

18:27 if you supply the reduce you leave out the extra calls to max

18:27 rpg: back

18:30 blbrown: WizardofWestmarc, what datastructure is returned from that frequency call.

18:31 hiredman: a map

18:31 rhickey: hmmm.. that seemed to be backwards (i.e. lazy branch dominated), but when I switch to svn merge lazy trunk, I get only a few added files, no updates

18:32 WizardofWestmarc: btw best thing I learned from that frequencies function is the merge-with function

18:32 rhickey: hm, trying to think what could be wrong, but I almost exclusively use tortoise svn so I don't know the syntax for the command line version.

18:34 that and I'm anything but an svn wizard, I just spend a lot of time cleaning up other peoples' mistakes at work >_>

18:35 danlarkin: this is the cost of using svn

18:36 rhickey: I wish someone would just feed me the correct command line to try...

18:36 * rhickey knows nothing about SVN

18:37 hiredman: http://www.sepcot.com/blog/2007/04/SVN-Merge-Branch-Trunk

18:38 that might help, step by step instructions

18:39 WizardofWestmarc: the worst part about pre-1.5, the fact you have to supply the revision # of the break

18:40 burkelibbey: So at the end of his latest blog post, chouser mentioned his system to easily switch between branches of clojure. I figured I'd share the piece of junk I hacked together to do the same thing: http://gist.github.com/65457

18:41 WizardofWestmarc: Heading out, take care all and good luck on the merge rhickey

19:10 mrSpec: Hi

19:12 cooldude127: mrSpec: hey

19:12 ayrnieu: burkel, I have a clojure.jar symlink in my CLASSPATH , and I have a makefile. 'make lazy'. 'make trunk'.

20:08 pilkarn: is binary search the fastest way to locate a number in an array?

20:10 hiredman: pilkarn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_algorithm#List_of_sorting_algorithms

20:18 cooldude127: pilkarn: is your data already sorted?

20:31 ok looks like symbolic math is gonna be way easier with some good pattern matching

20:34 blbrown_: how can I set the return value with 'loop' Can I put anything after 'recur'?

20:34 hiredman: uh

20:34 Chouser: no, you need an alternate branch.

20:34 hiredman: no

20:34 blbrown_: nevermind

20:34 Chouser, yea

20:35 Chouser: and then you have to merge them. Ask Rich how. ;-)

20:35 hiredman: recur is (a loop) not a loop

21:11 matthew`: Does anyone have any thoughts on delivering Clojure applications to the desktop?

21:11 albino: build jar+bundle with jre == delivered java app?

21:19 matthew`: I'm really coming to Java through Clojure and don't have much of a feel for how widely used it is out there.

21:20 Are there many Java Swing apps running out there in the business world?

21:20 hiredman: because the jvm startup time, java is not used a lot in desktop apps

21:20 matthew`: Ok.

21:21 So it isn't a quality issue with the GUI then.

21:21 hiredman: mostly for long running tasks

21:21 cooldude127: matthew`: well, the gui isn't the greatest, but it works

21:21 matthew`: Thanks.

21:21 hiredman: and there are bindings for other gui frameworks

21:22 matthew`: I've heard of the QT4 bindings.

21:22 burkelibbey: ...pretty much every other GUI framework, really.

21:22 blbrown: matthew`, I like SWT

21:22 hiredman: QT :(

21:22 cooldude127: swt isn't too bad

21:23 burkelibbey: QT would be perfect if it weren't for the sketchy license :(

21:23 matthew`: ok.

21:24 blbrown: QT jvm bindings, do they exist? I am going with swt/eclipse ...millions of installs and great widgets.

21:24 hiredman: perfect is a strong word

21:24 burkelibbey: Yes, I heard of someone developing QT in Clojure a few months back. I'll try to dig up the link

21:24 cooldude127: blbrown: they're called QT jambi i think

21:24 burkelibbey: http://briancarper.net/2008/10/31/qt4-in-lisp/

21:25 hiredman: Lua_of_DK is pretty unrelenting about pushing a) emacs and b) Qt Jambi

21:25 matthew`: Thanks guys, sorry to start something and then leave. My swimming partners are hassling me. Thanks for the help and the links.

21:25 blbrown: I guess we have options. SWT, Swing, QT4

21:26 hiredman: and "anyone who picks something else is doing so for religious reasons"

21:26 Chouser: gtk/gnome

21:26 hiredman: Chouser: have you looked at gnome's java bindings?

21:26 Chouser: no, just saw they exist

21:26 hiredman: they, uh, :(

21:27 at least on freebsd

21:29 the documentation doesn't match the current class hierarchy

21:29 Chouser: for gtk??

21:29 hiredman: the documentation on the java gnome website

21:30 Chouser: ah.

21:30 hiredman: doesn't match what is actually in the java gnome source tree

21:30 classes have been moved around, etc

21:30 packages renamed

22:10 shoover: rhickey: still looking for that svn command?

22:26 if you're going to merge the lazy branch and be done with it, go to a clean up to date trunk working copy and run svn merge -r 1236:1286 http://clojure.googlecode.com/svn/branches/lazy. That takes all the changes to the lazy branch and applies them to the trunk working copy. There will be some minor conflicts to resolve.

22:29 If you want to bring trunk changes into lazy and play with lazy some more, go to a clean, up to date lazy working copy and run svn merge -r 1236:1286 http://clojure.googlecode.com/svn/trunk.

22:30 eyeris: If I instantiate a HashMap in Java, I have to specify the key and value types and .get() and .put() enforce those types. That doesn't seem to be the case in Clojure. Could someone point me to documentation of the implications of this?

22:30 hiredman: eyeris: Generics are implemented as type erasure in java

22:31 Chouser: Before generics, the types of things put in Java collections was not enforced.

22:31 hiredman: http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/java/generics/erasure.html

22:32 so as I understand it, generics are just a compiletime check

22:32 Chouser: and allow you to avoid casting things as you take them out of the collection

22:33 hiredman: "there is no way to tell at runtime which type parameter is used on an object. For example, when you examine an ArrayList at runtime, there is no general way to tell whether it was an ArrayList<Integer> or an ArrayList<Float>."

22:34 eyeris: Right, so how does Clojure know what methods are available?

22:34 Or is that a JVM operation, resulting in a runtime error?

22:35 hiredman: clojure uses reflection, unless you type hint

22:35 Chouser: Clojure does some type inference at compile time, which you can help along with type hints.

22:35 eyeris: Okay

22:36 Chouser: right, if that's not sufficient it will issue an optional warning and do the lookup at runtime.

22:36 eyeris: Last question: When dealing with generics in Clojure, this means that I can just completely ignore the type parameters and use the generic class as a raw type?

22:40 Chouser: yes

22:40 eyeris: Great. Thanks.

22:40 cooldude127: eyeris: although it so doesn't matter

22:40 eyeris: java has generics mostly to avoid a bunch of casting. clojure doesn't bother with that, so it doesn't really matter

22:41 for the record, you can use a generic type in java as a raw type, it behaves as if you just has Object as the generic parameter

22:41 that was crappy english on my part

22:41 eyeris: I see that now.

22:42 ozy`: generics are necessary for typesafe polymorphic collections

22:42 typesafe polymorphic other stuff as well, but mainly collections

22:42 cooldude127: ozy`: in clojure, we could give a damn about type-safety

22:42 ozy`: cooldude127: exactly

22:42 cooldude127: :)

22:49 it's sometimes fun to translate CL code to clojure, you really see how certain features clean things up

22:49 for example: maps being functions of their keys


22:49 gnuvince_: Hell yeah

22:49 and having literal syntax for maps

22:49 cooldude127: yes also awesome

22:50 gnuvince_: I use them as much as I use them in Python or JavaScript

22:50 cooldude127: i forget that's not how CL works

23:12 what's the closest thing we have in clojure to this CL function: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_sublis.htm#sublis

23:13 which btw, i had no idea existed until now

23:15 pilkarn: cooldude127: yes i find clojure to be sooo much cleaner than common lisp.

23:16 hiredman: cooldude127: I think you'll have to roll your own

23:16 cooldude127: BOOO

23:16 :(

23:17 hiredman: ,clojure.zip/seq-zip

23:17 clojurebot: #<zip$seq_zip__5928 clojure.zip$seq_zip__5928@171120a>

23:17 hiredman: I think it would be fairly easy with a zippero n a seq

23:17 durka42: (let [tree ["one" "two" ["three" "four"]] reps {"one" 1 "three" 3} doit (fn doit [x] (if (coll? x) (map doit x) (get reps x x)))] (map doit tree))

23:17 ,(let [tree ["one" "two" ["three" "four"]] reps {"one" 1 "three" 3} doit (fn doit [x] (if (coll? x) (map doit x) (get reps x x)))] (map doit tree))

23:17 clojurebot: (1 "two" (3 "four"))

23:18 * durka42 does not grok zippers

23:19 durka42: ~zippers

23:19 clojurebot: excusez-moi

23:19 durka42: wasn't there a good link on the haskell behind them?

23:19 hiredman: ~google haskell functional zippers

23:19 clojurebot: First, out of 1950 results is:

23:19 Haskell/Zippers - Wikibooks, collection of open-content textbooks

23:19 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Zippers

23:19 hiredman: the zip.clj code is pretty clear

23:19 durka42: oh man the theseus example

23:20 i remember reading this when i was attempting to learn haskell

23:25 hiredman: http://paste.lisp.org/display/74521 <-- could be useful

23:33 lisppaste8: url?

23:33 lisppaste8: To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.

23:35 hiredman pasted "sublis sort of, using transform" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75625

23:43 blbrown: hmm, thinking about buying those clojure t-shirts

23:44 durka42: clojure t-shirts?

23:44 blbrown: http://www.zazzle.com/clojure+tshirts

23:44 durka42: heh

23:48 Chouser: blbrown: you should. I've currently got the keys to that account, but since the ideas are mostly not my own I've already said I'll give the proceeds (if any) over to Rich.

23:49 blbrown: wonder why the black one is so expensive. I wanted to get two

23:49 Chouser: you can customize them, pick the shirt that you want.

23:50 doesn't mean there's a cheaper one, through. :-/

23:50 blbrown: ooo, nice website

23:51 Chouser: So far we've sold 7, so Zazzle owes Rich almost $20.

23:51 Pretty soon he could by that new Clojure book.

23:51 buy

23:55 blbrown: Chouser, I just bought 2

23:55 Chouser: blbrown: great, thanks!

23:55 which did you get?

23:56 blbrown: I got the one with 'state you are doing it wrong'

23:56 Chouser: ooh, I should get one before the lisp conference in Boston.

23:56 something provocative for all the CLers.

23:56 blbrown: hehe

23:56 Chouser: lisp is not dead...

23:57 hiredman: heh

23:58 durka42: might be preaching the choir with that one

23:58 danlarkin: haha oh boy, I watch catching up on the conversation and I thought you said "So far we've sold 7200..." and my jaw dropped

23:58 Chouser: man, how embarrassing would it be to get beat up at a LISP conference.

23:58 heh

23:58 hiredman: imagine getting a fat lip

23:58 lipth

23:58 lithp

23:58 blbrown: this is the only other programming shirt I have: http://www.flickr.com/photos/berlinbrown/21302219/

23:59 Chouser: oh, that's orders not shirts. up to 8 now.

23:59 blbrown: hehe

23:59 Chouser: nice

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