#clojure log - Feb 05 2009

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0:02 blbrown: is there a way to select an atom in a struct/map through a string. E.g. (def a { :abc-one 1 :abc-two 2 }) and then (a (str ":abc-one")) ...or something similar

0:02 maybe like a way to convert a string to an atom

0:03 Chouser: ,(keyword "abc-one")

0:03 clojurebot: :abc-one

0:04 Chouser: ,(let [a {:abc-one 1 :abc-two 2 }] (a (keyword "abc-one")))

0:04 clojurebot: 1

0:04 Chouser: blbrown: is that what you mean?

0:04 blbrown: yea

0:05 and I guess clojure doesn't use the term 'atom' in that sense

0:05 Chouser: no, there's no vocab for that concept. non-collection object. :-)

0:12 blbrown: Chouser, another small question. what is the 'else' clause for 'cond' (cond (= 1 2) 3 ... true (println "abc")?

0:13 Chouser: 'true' works fine of course, but it's conventional to use ':else'

0:14 blbrown: because :else always evaluates to true anyway

0:14 Chouser: exactly

2:22 hiredman: clojurebot: emacs?

2:22 clojurebot: emacs is hard, lets go shopping!

2:23 metaperl: how do you write unicode characters in clojure?

2:27 hiredman: metaperl: all characters in clojure are unicode

2:28 metaperl: how would you get at one via hex?

2:28 the unicode char 1F18 for instance

2:29 hiredman: ,(.codePointAt "?foo" 0)

2:29 clojurebot: 9021

2:29 hiredman: ,(char 9021)

2:29 clojurebot: \?

2:30 metaperl: that's odd... my irc client has garbled text: (.codePointAt "GIBBERISH" 0)

2:30 hiredman: ,(Integer/toHexString 9021)

2:30 clojurebot: "233d"

2:30 hiredman: metaperl: your irc client is not doing unicode then

2:30 you should get a better one

2:30 ,(char 0233d)

2:30 clojurebot: Eval-in-box threw an exception:Invalid number: 0233d

2:30 hiredman: ,(char 0x233d)

2:30 clojurebot: \?

2:30 hiredman: :P

2:31 ,(char 0x1f18)

2:31 clojurebot: \?

2:32 metaperl: thanks for your help - http://github.com/metaperl/begin-clojure/blob/619eb489fb68839d2376d2cdf7375f2370d38494/1/unicode-chars.txt

2:33 hiredman: yeah

2:33 that is not the character I was playing with

2:33 the character I was playing with is one of the APL symbols

2:33 a circle with a vertical like through it

2:36 lisppaste8: metaperl pasted "How to create a string from a series of characters?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74908

2:37 hiredman: str

2:37 ,(str \a \b \c)

2:37 clojurebot: "abc"

2:38 hiredman: but clojure is all unicode, so you can just use unicode strings

2:39 ,(apply str (map char (range 100 150)))

2:39 clojurebot: "defghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~����������������������"

2:39 hiredman: ,(apply str (map char (range 200 300)))

2:39 clojurebot: "��������������������������������������������������������????????????????????????????????????????????"

2:40 hiredman: ,(char 0x2620)

2:40 clojurebot: \?

2:44 metaperl: moving on to numbers... how would I print the decimal value of 01101 interpreted as oct and binary?

2:44 hiredman: ,(Integer/parseInt "01101" 2)

2:44 clojurebot: 13

2:45 hiredman: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/lang/Integer.html <-- go nuts

2:46 metaperl: well I need to create a lambda that takes a base and map over 2 and 8

2:46 ,'(2 8)

2:46 clojurebot: (2 8)

2:46 metaperl: ,(map (fn [x] (+ 1 x)) '(2 8))

2:46 clojurebot: (3 9)

2:47 metaperl: ,(map (fn [x] (Integer/parseInt "01101" x) '(2 8))

2:47 clojurebot: Eval-in-box threw an exception:EOF while reading

2:47 hiredman: uh

2:47 metaperl: ,(map (fn [x] (Integer/parseInt "01101" x)) '(2 8))

2:47 clojurebot: (13 577)

2:48 hiredman: read the javadoc for the parseInt method of Integer

2:48 I don't think it does what you think it does

2:49 metaperl: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/lang/Integer.html#parseInt(java.lang.String)

2:49 I thought the 2 was a base

2:49 hiredman: it is

2:49 01101 is not in base 8

2:49 jdz: well, why not?

2:49 metaperl: oh its the method above

2:49 hiredman: well it could be

2:50 but, I mean, come on

2:50 jdz: :)

2:50 hiredman: so running parseInt with base 8 is islly

2:50 metaperl: hiredman: why?

2:51 hiredman: because it isn't base 8

2:51 metaperl: oh you mean there are more efficient ways to express that in octal

2:51 hiredman: no

2:53 jdz: the point is that the number 01101 looks like a binary, not octal

2:53 metaperl: How do I put a newline in a string? (. javax.swing.JOptionPane (showMessageDialog nil "Hello World\newlineHi Mom"))

2:53 hiredman: no

2:53 \newline is the chracter literal for newline

2:53 metaperl: right that's a string

2:54 i mean my code

2:54 has a string

2:54 jdz: metaperl: how about you read some tutorial on Java?

2:54 hiredman: metaperl: try it and see

2:55 metaperl: ,(. System getProperty "line.separator")

2:55 clojurebot: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.util.PropertyPermission line.separator read)

2:58 hiredman: the current prefered style for static methods would be (System/getProperty "line.separator")

3:17 Lau_of_DK: Good morning gents

3:28 boxbeat: good morning danskj�vel

3:39 BigTom: ,(prn 07)

3:39 clojurebot: 7

3:40 BigTom: ,(prn 08)

3:40 clojurebot: Eval-in-box threw an exception:Invalid number: 08

3:40 BigTom: That messed me up for a few minutes

3:42 Cark: hum these are octal ?

3:42 Chousuke: yeah.

5:27 zakwilson: I'm contemplating writing an IRC client in Clojure, mostly for my own entertainment. I'm looking for a library that abstracts away the details of communicating with the server - unfortunately, Google has 200000 hits for "java IRC library". Does anybody here have experience with any of them?

5:30 karmazilla: zakwilson: nope, but the clojurebot source code on github might be a source of inspiration

5:31 Holcxjo: The last.fm people had a post recently how they used IRC in their everyday life -- http://www.metabrew.com/article/how-we-use-irc-at-lastfm/ -- they use Java...

5:32 Points to http://github.com/RJ/irccat/tree/master

5:35 which in turn has a libs dir which has a conspicuous pircbot.jar file -- googling finds http://www.jibble.org/pircbot.php

5:36 zakwilson: Thanks guys.

5:51 Lau_of_DK: zakwilson: If you havent found something yet I can look up one I used a while ago

5:59 zakwilson: Lau_of_DK: pircbot is looking pretty attractive, but if you have something you were happy with, I'd like to see it.

6:16 ayrnieu: zakwilson, there's very little detail in communicating with the server.

6:18 zakwilson: ayrnieu: I know - I looked over the API. Still, I'm not sure there's any good reason to do that part myself.

6:18 Err... not API. RFC.

6:18 * zakwilson needs more caffeine.

6:26 Lau_of_DK: metaperl: Did u figure it out re your last lisp paste?

7:53 AWizzArd: Where again can I find the Clojure roadmap (,,to do list")?

7:56 danlarkin: clojurebot: todo?

7:56 clojurebot: todo is not what you think it is

7:57 danlarkin: clojurebot: todo list?

7:57 clojurebot: todo is not what you think it is

7:57 danlarkin: grrrr

7:58 karmazilla: clojurebot: what is todo?

7:58 clojurebot: todo is not what you think it is

7:58 karmazilla: clojurebot: what?

7:58 clojurebot: what is latest

8:00 metaperl: Lau_of_DK: he had the installer on a different git branch... he may have changed it now

8:00 you have to do a git checkout after the git clone to get it

8:03 AWizzArd: rhickey: there is no ref?, agent? yet?

8:04 I saw there is an atom? which corresponds closely to CLs ATOM.

8:04 clojure.inspector/atom?

8:06 ayrnieu: ,(map class [(ref nil) (agent nil) (atom nil)])

8:06 clojurebot: (clojure.lang.Ref clojure.lang.Agent clojure.lang.Atom)

8:06 rhickey: AWizzArd: all these predicates are tiresome, just use instance?

8:06 AWizzArd: k

8:18 cemerick: rhickey: clojure.lang.Compile really needs a way to set *warn-on-reflection* -- would you accept a patch to it that set that var based on a system property?

8:20 rhickey: cemerick: sure

8:21 thanks

8:30 ayrnieu: huh. (defmacro yet? [sym] `(= `~sym '~sym)), (macroexpand '(yet? +)) => (clojure.core/= user/sym (quote +)) -- but it's the same way in CL.

8:31 jdz: what are you suprised by?

8:32 surprised even

8:32 ayrnieu: I expected (clojure.core/= 'clojure.core/+ '+)

8:32 ,[`+ '+]

8:32 clojurebot: [clojure.core/+ +]

8:33 jdz: ayrnieu: well, you have nested backquotes

8:33 ayrnieu: right. I expected them to nest.

8:33 jdz: and the do, in fact, nest

8:33 *they

8:34 ayrnieu: sym does not interpolate into `(= `~sym '~sym))

8:36 jdz: you sure you don't want `(= ~`~sym '~sym))?

8:37 ayrnieu: ,(let [sym '+] `(= ~`~sym '~sym))

8:37 clojurebot: (clojure.core/= + (quote +))

8:38 ayrnieu: no, I don't want that. I want `(= xxx ~sym '~sym) to become (= xxx + '+) But ` doesn't nest, which surprised me.

8:43 jdz: so, isn't (let [sym '+] `(= ~sym '~sym)) what you want?

8:43 ,(let [sym '+] `(= ~sym '~sym))

8:43 clojurebot: (clojure.core/= + (quote +))

8:44 jdz: (note that (quote +) *is* the same as '+)

8:44 ayrnieu: no.

8:44 look.p

8:45 ,(let [x 1] `(xxx (yyy (bbb (zzz ~x) ~x) ~x ~x ~x)))

8:45 clojurebot: (sandbox/xxx (sandbox/yyy (sandbox/bbb (sandbox/zzz 1) 1) 1 1 1))

8:45 ayrnieu: ,(let [x 1] `(xxx (yyy (bbb (zzz ~x) ''~x) ~x '~x '~x)))

8:45 clojurebot: (sandbox/xxx (sandbox/yyy (sandbox/bbb (sandbox/zzz 1) (quote (quote 1))) 1 (quote 1) (quote 1)))

8:46 ayrnieu: ONLY ` CHANGES MEANING INSIDE `

8:46 jdz: i still don't understand what you want

8:46 ayrnieu: you can change bbb to quote , or just type '(zzz ~x) instead, and x gets interpolated directly into the form.

8:46 rhickey: (resolve 'sym)

8:46 ayrnieu: I've told you: < ayrnieu> I expected (clojure.core/= 'clojure.core/+ '+)

8:47 The effect of (= `+ '+)

8:47 thanks.

8:48 rhickey: ayrnieu: when would you expect (= `+ '+) to be true?

8:48 only (= `+ 'clojure.core/+) is true

8:49 this is not CL

8:49 where the reader would have put all read symbols in packages

8:50 ayrnieu: I hadn't thought as far as seeing that `some-undefined-thing resolved anyway to 'user/some-undefined-thing

8:50 rhickey: ayrnieu: right, you force the issue with syntaxy-quote, but resolve should let you write yet?

8:51 ayrnieu: yes. yet? is just `(resolve ~arg) :-)

8:51 rhickey: there you go!

8:51 ayrnieu: well, '~arg

8:52 rhickey: yet? need not be a macro

8:52 (def yet? resolve)

8:53 or is this for use outside of macros?

8:55 ayrnieu: I think just resolve is fine. /me &

9:00 AWizzArd: ,`(list `(+ ~(* 10 5) 2))

9:00 clojurebot: (clojure.core/list (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/+)) (clojure.core/list (clojure.core/* 10 5)) (clojure.core/list 2)))

9:00 AWizzArd: ayrnieu: seems that ` nests.

9:04 cemerick: clojure.lang.Compile really should (at least optionally) take a list of clojure source roots, and just walk the dirs looking for libs to compile. The necessary ant gymnastics for getting a proper set of arguments into c.l.Compile right now are pretty painful (and probably fragile, in my current impl).

9:04 I suppose there are edge cases where a simple directory walk would trip over files that don't define a separate lib...

9:04 (or, edge cases for me :-) )

9:05 rhickey: cemerick: you can't presume file == lib

9:06 cemerick: rhickey: yeah, I know -- but in my world, I can blithely call such circumstances "edge cases"

9:06 AWizzArd: cemerick: can't Enclojure do that?

9:06 cemerick: Having to manually enumerate each lib that should be compiled is not sustainable, though. Perhaps some header comment can be used to identify libs, or not-libs

9:07 AWizzArd: Perhaps, but IMO, builds must be able to run in a headless environment

9:07 headless and automated, I should say

9:11 bstephenson: AWizzard: by default, enclojure enumerates all clj files under a projects source directory, converts the file names into the proper dot syntax that clojure compile expects, and sends each file separately as an arg to the java command that calls clojure's compile function.

9:13 rhickey: bstephenson: so it presumes file == lib, or does it look for ns declarations?

9:14 bstephenson: rhickey: right now, the default project build file for clojure projects does presume file == lib

9:18 rhickey: bstephenson: hmm..., so clojure core couldn't be a clojure project

9:23 bstephenson: rhickey: well, couldn't be buildwith the build file from a DEFAULT clojure project, which just compiles clojure files and java files and jars them up. There are changes to the build file that are sometimes needed for more complex projects, such as those that mix java and clojure code that call each other. I know all of our enclojure projects do NOT use the default build file that is created when you use NetBeans to create a new

9:24 thickey: rhickey: is the ns declaration all that makes a file a lib, or is there some other defining characteristics? (sorry, not used to using the term "lib" here)

9:25 bstephenson: ...to create a new clojure project.

9:26 jayfields: is there a way to get a list if all the functions defined in a namespace?

9:26 AWizzArd: ,*ns*

9:26 clojurebot: #<Namespace sandbox>

9:26 AWizzArd: ,(ns-map 'sandbox)

9:26 clojurebot: {sorted-map #'clojure.core/sorted-map, read-line #'clojure.core/read-line, re-pattern #'clojure.core/re-pattern, keyword? #'clojure.core/keyword?, val #'clojure.core/val, ProcessBuilder java.lang.ProcessBuilder, Enum java.lang.Enum, SuppressWarnings java.lang.SuppressWarnings, *compile-path* #'clojure.core/*compile-path*, max-key #'clojure.core/max-key, list* #'clojure.core/list*, ns-aliases #'clojure.core/ns-aliases, the

9:27 jayfields: thanks

9:28 AWizzArd: this reminds me: I forgot how to check if an object x is a function object...

9:30 bstephenson: ,(ns-publics 'sandbox)

9:30 clojurebot: {}

9:31 rhickey: thickey: I think that idiomatic use of ns would make it such that files containing ns declarations would be considered lib roots, subordinate files would use in-ns

9:35 karmazilla: what kind of array is [B ?

9:36 cemerick: rhickey: if that's the operational definition, then we can definitely make c.l.Compile accept just the top-level src dirs. That'd make life a lot more pleasant for just about every use case, I think.

9:36 rhickey: karmazilla: bute - see: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/lang/Class.html#getName()

9:36 byte

9:37 karmazilla: ty

9:38 rhickey: cemerick: you're advocating putting the ns-detecting code in Compile?

9:38 cemerick: rhickey: no, I presume it'd be useful elsewhere, but I think that's the most critical "user-facing" piece that needs that functionality at the moment

9:39 rhickey: cemerick: sorry, I didn't mean locating it there, just using that logic in Compile

9:40 cemerick: rhickey: yeah -- otherwise, every lib in every project has to be enumerated, or everyone needs to muck around with ant absurdity in order to produce a sane build process

9:40 sane == repeatable

9:41 rhickey: the enclojure team might already have ns-detecting logic somewhere

9:42 cemerick: I'm sure they do. I'll bring it up later.

9:42 rhickey: I'm even fine with saying the first non-comment form (i.e. the first object returned by read) must be an ns form

9:42 would be interested in use cases where it's not

9:46 karmazilla: rhickey: where would that be checked?

9:47 rhickey: karmazilla: we've been talking about build tools using it to identify a source file that is a lib compilation root

9:49 karmazilla: so it's only when figuring out whether some file is a lib or not

9:49 rhickey: karmazilla: right

9:53 walters: cemerick: i have hopes that the Jigsaw project is going to have a sane module system integrated with the VM and language

10:17 te: i still dont understand what the hell is going on in clojure

10:17 * te reads some more Programming Clojure

10:20 AWizzArd: How can I do (function? x) ?

10:20 gnuvince: AWizzArd: (fn? x)

10:21 AWizzArd: thx

10:21 Chousuke: ,(fn? :a)

10:21 clojurebot: false

10:21 gnuvince: ,(fn? take)

10:21 clojurebot: true

10:21 gnuvince: ifn? if you want something that works like a function to return true too.

10:21 Chousuke: so it doesn't check for IFn.

10:22 rhickey: ,(ifn? :a)

10:22 clojurebot: true

10:22 beatbox: anynone know if it is possible to write applications in mathematica or it is just prototyping and calculating?

10:23 Chouser: "ifn?" sounds funny in my head. Makes me smile.

10:23 bitbckt: "if'n y'all want, get 'er done!"

10:24 gnuvince: I read it as "I Fun"

10:24 And it makes me happy?

10:24 But then it returns false

10:24 and I'm brought back to reality

10:24 Chouser: bitbckt: right, to which one might reply "if'n?"

10:24 bitbckt: => false

10:25 (ifn? :english)

10:25 ;-)

10:26 gnuvince: (def yall? every?)

10:26 cooldude127: oh god

10:26 bitbckt: haha

10:26 mattrepl: heh

10:26 gnuvince: (yall? ifn? acoll)

10:26 clj-redneck

10:27 cooldude127: ha

10:27 mattrepl: beatbox: it's possible to write apps in mathematica, but they look ugly. wouldn't do much more than interactive data visualization with it

10:28 beatbox: doh, sorry. I was thinking matlab, disregard...

10:28 bitbckt: and mattrepl tears us all back down to reality...

10:28 cooldude127: matlab sucks

10:29 mattrepl: clojure + jfreechart + jME + JAMA is a nice replacement for matlab

10:29 cooldude127: but gatech is all about matlab, so :(

10:30 Chouser: Dejcartes is a jfreechart wrapper for clojure that I've been meaning to look at.

10:34 gnuvince: The name hurts my jaw

10:35 Chouser: It's not its fault that all the cool names like "textjure" are already taken.

10:36 beatbox: so basically suff like matlab, R, mathematica etc is for prototyping, noone writes real datamining or machine leaning applications in it?

10:36 could you do soemthing like the netflix prize in mathematica? i mean is it efficient, can it handle 17770*450000 sparse matrices?

10:46 ill put a 1000000$ bounty on the next person nameing something -jure

10:58 danlarkin: beatbox: haha I'll double it

11:00 brianh_: beatbox: it's been a while, but in a past life i worked with engineers who used SAS for mining/analysis

11:09 bstephenson: Guess I will have to get rid of my clojure-based entertainment product: "It's Your Pleajure"

11:10 noidi: :D

11:10 Chouser: oh dear

11:23 beatbox: SAS?

11:33 brianh_: beatbox: http://www.sas.com/

11:34 disclaimer! never used it myself though

11:35 Chouser: rhickey: would you accept a patch that changes Var to implement Named? They do have names, after all.

11:41 cgrand1: chouser: local vars don't have names, no?

11:44 Chouser: right, they have .ns and .sym fields still, but both are nil

11:45 but I suppose the with-local-vars macro could give them a .sym and leave the .ns nil

11:45 a nil namespace isn't unusual for a Named thing

11:45 ,(namespace 'foo)

11:45 clojurebot: nil

11:55 Cark: hum i can't find a way to access some java enum ...

11:55 it's define like this : JXFrame.StartPosition

11:55 and i want to access the CenterScreen value

11:56 so i tried this : JXFrame$StartPosition/CenterInScreen

11:56 and all variations

11:56 but none is working

11:58 Chouser: Cark: you have a javadoc or .jar link for that class?

11:59 Cark: http://swinglabs.org/hudson/job/SwingX%20Continuous%20Build/javadoc/org/jdesktop/swingx/JXFrame.StartPosition.html

12:00 that's the first time i try accessing a java enum

12:01 Chouser: ,(prn java.lang.Thread$State/BLOCKED

12:01 clojurebot: Eval-in-box threw an exception:EOF while reading

12:01 Chouser: ,(prn java.lang.Thread$State/BLOCKED)

12:01 clojurebot: #<State BLOCKED>

12:01 Chouser: That seems to work. Did you import the JXFrame$StartPosition class?

12:02 Cark: right your example seems to work =/

12:02 ahh let me try that

12:03 that was it !

12:03 thanks again chouser

12:04 i guess without the import, i needed to fully qualify the name

12:04 though JXFrame was imported

12:04 Chouser: right. the nested classes are really completely different classes than their container class

12:04 or whatever the right word is

12:05 Cark: good to know =)

12:06 StartsWithK: how could i turn {:a {:b 1} :c {:d 2 :e 3}}} into ((:a :b) 1 (:c :d) 2 (:c :e) 3), it there function for something like this already?

12:09 Chouser: seems unlikely that there'd be one built in

12:10 looks fun though

12:11 kefka: I have a question about transactions/dosync: does dosync put a lock on state it alters?

12:12 err, let me phrase that more intelligently:

12:13 If I (dosync (alter *ref* fun)) and *ref* changes during the transaction, is there any risk of *ref* holding fun of the old value?

12:13 Chouser: StartsWithK: (apply concat (for [[k1 m] mm [k2 v] m] [(list k1 k2) v]))

12:13 kefka: no

12:14 kefka: Chouser: Thanks. Btw, did you see you made Hacker News?

12:14 Chouser: kefka: if something else changed *ref* between when fun ran and when the transaction commits, the transaction will be retried.

12:15 durka42: Chouser: that only works for two level deep, doesn't it?

12:15 Chouser: kefka: nope, hadn't seen that.

12:15 kefka: Chouser: Cool. That's how I assumed transactions worked. Just making sure because concurrency is a weak area for me.

12:15 Chouser: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=466341

12:15 StartsWithK: Chouser: it gives me "Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer", but thanks for a start, i'll poke at it later

12:16 didn't know you can do that little trick you did with 'm' in for

12:17 Chouser: StartsWithK: yep, true nested loops.

12:21 StartsWithK: Chouser: I can see the problem, [k2 v] can't be destructed for leaf nodes, so thans for this

12:21 everyhing can be implemented as one-liner in clojure :)

12:21 Chouser: that why I like it!

12:21 ok, maybe not the only reason.

12:22 ozy`: ,[defn 'no 'u]

12:22 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/defn

12:27 LordOfTheNoobs: clojurebot: ,(let [v {:a {:b 1} :c {:d 2 :e 3}}] (apply concat (for [k (keys v) v (v k)] (list (list k (first v)) (frest v)))))

12:27 clojurebot: for is not a loop

12:28 Chouser: hehe

12:28 * LordOfTheNoobs grumble grumble

12:36 Chouser: LordOfTheNoobs: looks good, though. Have you done much with destructuring?

12:47 stuhood: ,(new Long 1)

12:47 clojurebot: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class java.lang.Long

12:47 stuhood: that is really annoying =/

12:47 is the only way to get a long via coercion?

12:48 Chousuke: hmm :/

12:48 ,(long 1)

12:48 clojurebot: 1

12:48 Chousuke: ,(class (long 1))

12:48 clojurebot: java.lang.Long

12:48 Chouser: ,(new Long (long 1))

12:48 clojurebot: 1

12:48 Chouser: :-P

12:49 Chousuke: ,(Long. (int 1))

12:49 clojurebot: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class java.lang.Long

12:49 stuhood: isn't it going from Int -> Long -> Long in that one?

12:49 Chousuke: heh.

12:49 ,(class 1)

12:49 clojurebot: java.lang.Integer

12:50 stuhood: in Java, passing an integer to a function that expects a long is kosher... it probably should be here as well

12:54 Chousuke: except those aren't integers or longs, they're Integers and Longs :)

12:54 stuhood: true... i think we still need a solution though

12:55 walters: stuhood: actually you can't do that in Java either

12:55 stuhood: int can get auto-promoted to long, OR auto-boxed to Integer, but not int->long->Long

12:56 now if you're taking the reflection hit there's no reason not to do the conversion

12:56 stuhood: walters: that chain of conversions i showed was for this code: (new Long (long 1))

12:57 walters: stuhood: oh i see, yeah Long takes a long arg; yeah Clojure should probably have similar upcasting conversions as java

13:00 Chouser: I wish 'keyword' could take a symbol and not just a string

13:04 Cark: hum how would i cast a [Ljava.lang.Object array to some other type of array ?

13:04 i thought it wasn't necessary

13:07 Chouser: I've never tried to do that. You need it to be an array of a different type for a java method call?

13:08 Cark: yes

13:08 Chouser: Did you build the array?

13:08 Cark: yes i have indeed a [Ljava.lang.Object array

13:08 looks like we might need a to-typed-array function somewhere

13:09 Chouser: ,(into-array [1 2 3])

13:09 clojurebot: #<Integer[] [Ljava.lang.Integer;@1cbf6bb>

13:09 Chouser: ,(into-array Long [1 2 3])

13:09 clojurebot: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: array element type mismatch

13:09 Cark: right but what if you need a [Lorg.jdesktop.swingx.painter.Painter array =P

13:09 Chouser: ,(into-array (map long [1 2 3]))

13:09 clojurebot: #<Long[] [Ljava.lang.Long;@287ca7>

13:10 Cark: (doc to-array)

13:10 clojurebot: Returns an array of Objects containing the contents of coll, which can be any Collection. Maps to java.util.Collection.toArray().; arglists ([coll])

13:10 Cark: (doc into-array)

13:10 clojurebot: Returns an array with components set to the values in aseq. The array's component type is type if provided, or the type of the first value in aseq if present, or Object. All values in aseq must be compatible with the component type. Class objects for the primitive types can be obtained using, e.g., Integer/TYPE.; arglists ([aseq] [type aseq])

13:10 Cark: allright this should make it

13:11 yes it does, thanks !

13:19 boxbeat: do you think clojure code looks aesthetic?

13:20 technomancy: heh; nice quit message there, walters.

13:20 boxbeat: depends on who writes it. =)

13:21 stuff that interacts with Java a lot is often not as pretty as pure lisp clojure

13:21 gnuvince: boxbeat: depends if it's written like Lisp code ought to be written or if it's written like somebody who using using it as a dynamic Java with parens

13:22 jayfields: In the closure.contrib.test-is documentation it says: You can plug in your own test-reporting framework by rebinding the "report" function: (report event msg expected actual). How do I rebind a function?

13:23 Chousuke: probably through (binding [report yourfn] ...)

13:23 with all the test-is calling inside that form.

13:23 jayfields: cool. thanks.

13:24 Chousuke: boxbeat: I think idiomatic clojure code looks better than common lisp :)

13:25 technomancy: heh; well CL was designed back before they realized you could put question marks in your function names

13:25 or vowels, for that matter

13:25 Chousuke: even the java interop can look okay if it's done properly.

13:25 technomancy: mostly I like how clojure uses non-parentheses very elegantly in the syntax.

13:25 Chouser: yes, though I think that depends more on the Java library API in question than on Clojure.

13:27 Chousuke: clojure often avoids the situation where you have two opening parentheses, like in common lisp (let ((foo bar))) which I think just looks ugly.

13:28 Chouser: when you see that in Clojure it almost always means you're actually getting a function and then calling it.

13:29 Chousuke: though destructuring in vectors often leads to [[foo bar]], that's somehow less offensive... I guess it's because in a vector the head position is not special.

13:32 Chouser: I prefer avoiding that though. somehow I feel it's clearer to use let first and call a named function, even if it's temporary :)

13:33 * Chouser nods

13:38 technomancy: Chousuke: I often do that to figure out what I'm doing, then inline it once I've got it working.

13:38 Chousuke: why not just leave it in as documentation though? :/

13:39 technomancy: I usually find it easier to read, just not easy to write.

13:39 which is weird

13:40 when I see let, it often acts as a signal for "this variable is going to be used in more than one place"

13:41 jbondeson: i'm a big fan of using a let for local functions, even if only used once.

13:44 Chouser: but then it takes two lines. :-(

13:44 jbondeson: yes, but it can make your code substantially more readable

13:44 Chouser: yes, but TWO LINES!

13:44 jbondeson: heh

13:45 Chouser: sorry

13:46 durka42: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=467155

13:47 he threw clojure onto a mono jvm and it worked... cool

13:55 technomancy: mono kinda reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony_toolkit

13:56 great idea, back before the JVM was freed. but today... what's the point again?

13:57 stuhood: competition is good! (see recent javascript developments)

14:11 gnuvince: Does this seem like a decent solution to the matching brackets problem? http://gist.github.com/58924

14:11 (Clojure style speaking)

14:14 kotarak: Just out of curiosity: do people really write a lot of macros defining macros? I wrote a bit of Clojure code, but I'm yet to see the need for a macro defined by a macro....

14:15 Chousuke: I don't think I've done that.

14:15 rhickey: gnuvince: opening/closing-brackets should be sets

14:15 Chousuke: in fact the only macro defining macro I can think of right now is defmacro :P

14:16 rhickey: gnuvince: then you could use like predicate (cond (opening-bracket x) ...)

14:17 kotarak: Chousuke: ok, that a use case. :)

14:17 danlarkin: clojurebot: max people

14:17 clojurebot: max people is 145

14:17 gnuvince: rhickey: but I'd need to replicate the brackets for my hash-map, because I cannot assume the order of the sets will be preserved, right?

14:19 rhickey: gnuvince: you could build the sets and the map from the strings, but the some linear lookup code is not good

14:19 gnuvince: ok

14:22 rhickey: ,(zipmap "({[<" ")}]>")

14:22 clojurebot: {\< \>, \[ \], \{ \}, \( \)}

14:22 rhickey: ,(set (keys *))

14:22 clojurebot: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: core$_STAR___3192

14:23 Chousuke: it's not that smart :)

14:23 rhickey: ,(set (keys *2))

14:23 clojurebot: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var clojure.core/*2 is unbound.

14:23 rhickey: hrm

14:23 kotarak: sorted-set works also

14:23 rhickey: gnuvince: anyway, zipmap

14:23 gnuvince: (doc zipmap)

14:23 clojurebot: Returns a map with the keys mapped to the corresponding vals.; arglists ([keys vals])

14:23 gnuvince: cool

14:29 http://gist.github.com/58942

14:45 lisppaste8: rhickey pasted "more idiomatic check-brackets" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74934

14:46 rhickey: gnuvince: oh, I didn't see you later paste

14:47 gnuvince: No problem

14:47 rhickey: nice code; I always forget the (and ...) idiom.

14:54 Chouser: I think my first contributions to a free software project were to Harmony.

14:58 sethtrain: http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/accident_incident/1549/media/N90%20AWE1546%201-15-09%20L116.mp3

14:58 sorry guys, wrong window

14:58 cp2: that mp3 is illegally shared

14:59 the riaa will be at your doorstep in a matter of hours

15:09 Chouser: hm, when-first but no if-first.

15:10 ayrnieu: (if-let [x (first xs)] ...)

15:11 Chouser: or even (if-let [[x] xs] ...) I suppose

15:12 oh, those are slightly different, and both different from when-let

15:13 ayrnieu: yours tests the value of x, not xs

15:13 my if-let tests the value of xs

15:13 when-first test (seq xs)

15:47 Raynes: Is paste.lisp.org down? :| I'm getting a 502.

15:48 durka42: lisppaste8: url?

15:48 lisppaste8: To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.

15:48 durka42: ya, proxy error

15:48 ayrnieu: Reason: Document contains no data

15:48 hiredman: ain't that the truth

15:49 durka42: back up

15:50 that was quick

15:54 hiredman: ,(int H)

15:54 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: H in this context

15:54 hiredman: ,(int \H)

15:54 clojurebot: 72

15:54 hiredman: ,(int \Z)

15:54 clojurebot: 90

15:54 hiredman: ,(char (/ (- 90 72) 2))

15:54 clojurebot: \tab

15:54 hiredman: ,(int \A)

15:54 clojurebot: 65

15:55 hiredman: ,(char (+ (/ (- 90 72) 2) 72))

15:55 clojurebot: \Q

16:15 lisppaste8: jkantz pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74938

16:16 jkantz: nested maps: is there some cool short cut for merging cookies into the :cookie-jar

16:17 hiredman: (doc update-in)

16:17 clojurebot: 'Updates' a value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys and f is a function that will take the old value and any supplied args and return the new value, and returns a new nested structure. If any levels do not exist, hash-maps will be created.; arglists ([m [k & ks] f & args])

16:19 jkantz: nice!

16:20 kotarak: jkantz: also assoc-in and get-in

16:24 lisppaste8: jkantz annotated #74938 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74938#1

16:24 ayrnieu: (update-in places [:kitchen :cupboard :cookie-jar] conj 'cookies)

17:14 cemerick: I'm seeing a ClassName__init.class file and a bunch of related inner classes (one for each fn, I think), but I'm not seeing a ClassName.class file. Any thoughts?

17:15 this, after compiling, of course.

17:16 Chouser: you only get that if you ask for it. Via :gen-class, I think.

17:17 cemerick: Chouser: yeah -- this is actually in conjunction with an explicit gen-class (separate from the ns form)

17:20 Chouser: hmph

17:20 hiredman: huh

17:20 my explicit gen-class stuff does generate a .class file named after the class

17:21 cemerick: hiredman: yeah, that's what I'm expecting

17:21 kotarak: Isn't ClassName.class for the namespace file? So if you have it separate from the ns, there is none?

17:21 hiredman: hmmm

17:21 actually

17:22 cemerick: kotarak: you're right, putting a gen-class in the ns produces the ClassName.class file

17:22 well, that's no good :-/

17:23 hiredman: can you verify what you're seeing there?

17:25 hiredman: cemerick: working on it

17:25 cemerick: hiredman: great, thanks

17:25 gotta run for a bit -- hopefully, I'll catch the brilliant solution in the log ;-) thanks, all

17:28 hiredman: http://gist.github.com/34229 <-- this is the gen-class deal I am testing with

17:29 when I compile hiredman.beans I get a wsbean.class file in ./classes/hiredman/

17:47 ,(char (- 9432 10))

17:47 clojurebot: \(Y)

17:48 kotarak: hiredman: you are right. I also get the ClassName.class file, but in a subdirectory according to the qualified name of the class.

17:48 So it isn't necessarily in the same directory as the .class files for the implementing functions.

17:49 hiredman: yeah

17:49 class files go in the classpath of the namespace the entity they represent is in

17:54 ozy`: ,[def]

17:54 clojurebot: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: def in this context

17:54 ozy`: huh

17:54 hiredman: def is a special form

17:54 ozy`: yes

17:55 I'm playing around with an interpreter and trying to decide if it should differentiate between special forms and macros

17:55 it currently doesn't

18:24 jayfields: what's the easiest way to 'use' all the namespaces in a parent namespace? For example if I have tests.test-one and tests.test-two can I load them both via (use [tests])

18:26 hiredman: (ns foo.bar (:user (tests test-one test-two)))

18:27 I do not believe use ever takes a vector

18:27 jayfields: is there a dynamic way to just use all of the children of tests?

18:27 hiredman: nope

18:28 technomancy: jayfields: if they've been required, there could be one, but if not then you'd have to inspect the filesystem or something.

18:28 which is lame

18:28 kotarak: hiredman: use may take a vector, eg. for :only

18:29 technomancy: but seems pretty reasonable

18:29 hiredman: kotarak: ok

18:41 tmi: Hi.. trying to use compojure - Don't know how to create ISeq from: Symbol - http://pastebin.com/d262a54d ... should be latest svn/git version of all.

18:43 ayrnieu: ... and your hello.clj ?

18:43 tmi: http://pastebin.com/d64615397

18:49 Raynes: tmi: paste.lisp.org/list/clojure and paste.pocoo.org are better choices for Clojure ;)

18:50 Chousuke: tmi: your namespace name doesn't match your filename, but that's probably not the main problem :/

18:50 tmi: Raynes: details, details. :P I'll try to remember next time. Put it in subject?

18:50 ayrnieu: In any case, I also get ExceptionInInitializer as soon as I (use 'compojure)

18:51 hiredman: you need to look lower down the stack

18:51 or higher

18:51 or which ever

18:52 tmi: is your clojure up to date?

18:52 ayrnieu: it fails even when you use the supplied clojure.jar

18:52 tmi: hiredman: yes. Revision: 1162

18:53 hiredman: ayrnieu: oh

18:53 tmi: ayrnieu: it worked with the supplied one for me.

18:53 ayrnieu: tmi - the latest is 1251

18:53 hiredman: sounds like time to hit up the compojure google group

18:53 clojurebot: latest?

18:53 clojurebot: latest is 1250

18:53 hiredman: hmmm

18:53 yeah

18:53 tmi: ayrnieu: gah. that might explain.

18:53 ayrnieu: hm, maybe -cp doesn't defeat CLASSPATH

18:53 hiredman: clojurebot's task runner died

18:54 Raynes: ,(doc +)

18:54 clojurebot: "([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns the sums of nums. (+) should never be used."

18:54 Raynes: :D

18:55 Chousuke: interesting remark

18:55 ,(+) ;muhahha

18:55 clojurebot: 0

18:55 ayrnieu: two days ago: <ayrnieu> ,(.setMeta #'+ (assoc (meta #'+) :doc "Returns the sums of nums. (+) should never be used."))

18:56 Chousuke: I see.

18:56 ayrnieu: (want to improve the documentation? Distribute an improved-doc.clj !)

18:56 tmi: hmm, why does SF say 1162 then? and my "svn update -r HEAD" says 1162. https://clojure.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/clojure/trunk *confused*

18:57 Raynes: Google Code bro.

18:57 Chousuke: (doc reset-meta!)

18:57 clojurebot: Atomically resets the metadata for a namespace/var/ref/agent/atom; arglists ([iref metadata-map])

18:57 Chousuke: or alter-meta! I guess.

18:57 tmi: clojure moved to google code a long time ago :)

18:58 Raynes: Long long ago.

18:58 At least 100 years ago.

18:58 ayrnieu: ,(- 1251 1162) ;; ago

18:58 clojurebot: 89

18:58 tmi: can't be _that_ long ago... but sure, then I'm unconfused again. thanks.

18:58 * hiredman restarts clojurebot's tasks on the new task scheduler

18:59 tmi: besides, if I google "clojure svn" SF is still the top hit :-(

19:00 ayrnieu: clojure.org has a prominent 'SVN'

19:00 Chousuke: the move happened 16th of december it seems

19:01 Raynes: If XChat freezes one more time...

19:01 ayrnieu: you'll write an IRC client?

19:01 Raynes: Yes.

19:01 hiredman: you'll get a real client?

19:02 Raynes: hiredman: I'm trying out XChat for a friend. Great client, besides the constant freezin g.

19:02 freezing*

19:02 * kotarak never had problems with xchat...

19:02 clojurebot: svn rev 1251; [lazy] removed loop from distinct

19:02 * Chousuke just uses irssi.

19:02 Raynes: kotarak: You probably aren't on Windows vista either.

19:03 I wouldn't use irssi if it was the only client in existence.

19:03 kotarak: No. Used xchat on Linux, no colloquy on mac

19:03 Chousuke: it could just as well be, since it's perfect!

19:03 kotarak: s/no/now

19:03 Chousuke: It's not built on lisp though

19:03 * Raynes will switch to something else by the end of the day.

19:03 Chousuke: but that doesn't matter as there are no missing features.

19:04 Raynes: kvIRC is a nice client for windows. Just too colorful.

19:04 ayrnieu: yeah, a day is plenty of time to write an IRC client.

19:05 Chousuke: colloquy is a passable client.

19:05 after a bit of tweaking, anyway

19:06 with the defaults I can't stand it.

19:06 ayrnieu: it defiantly spreads error.

19:06 Ariens: limechat is better

19:06 cp2: i prefer irssi, but im on windows so i am using the dreadfully lame mirc

19:06 nnscript makes it a lot better :)

19:06 Chousuke: but there's still nothing that rivals irssi.

19:07 ayrnieu: irssi has acceptable defaults.

19:07 tmi: yay, now it works. thanks all for your help. now I can go play some more.

19:07 cp2: ,(doc dotimes)

19:07 clojurebot: "([bindings & body]); bindings => name n Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with name bound to integers from 0 through n-1."

19:07 ayrnieu: tmi - what did you do?

19:07 tmi: ayrnieu: did a fresh checkout from the right svn servers ;-)

19:09 ayrnieu: hmph. That doesn't help me, but I wasn't doing anything with compojure anyway.

19:10 tmi: :/

19:16 cp2: is there a way to generate a keyword from a string?

19:16 as in

19:16 "foo" would result in :foo

19:16 hiredman: ,(doc keyword)

19:16 clojurebot: "([name] [ns name]); Returns a Keyword with the given namespace and name. Do not use : in the keyword strings, it will be added automatically."

19:16 ayrnieu: ,(keyword (symbol "foo"))

19:16 clojurebot: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to java.lang.String

19:16 ayrnieu: or just that.

19:16 cp2: i see

19:17 thanks

19:17 hiredman: ,((comp keyword name) (symbol "foo"))

19:17 clojurebot: :foo

19:17 cp2: i suppose i should get more acquainted with the api page

19:18 ayrnieu: or use find-doc , or you write your own: the first thing I did was throw together a http://paste.lisp.org/display/74207

19:19 cp2: heh, i still prefer http://clojure.org/api

19:19 for the moment, at least

19:44 hiredman: clojurebot: latest?

19:44 clojurebot: latest is 1251

19:45 hiredman: svn rev 1251

19:45 clojurebot: svn rev 1251; [lazy] removed loop from distinct

19:45 svn rev 1251; [lazy] removed loop from distinct

19:45 hiredman: hmm

19:45 clojurebot: svn rev 1251; [lazy] removed loop from distinct

19:45 svn rev 1251; [lazy] removed loop from distinct

19:45 hiredman: that is not good

19:46 svn rev 1251

19:46 clojurebot: svn rev 1251; [lazy] removed loop from distinct

19:46 svn rev 1251; [lazy] removed loop from distinct

19:47 hiredman: svn rev 1235

19:47 clojurebot: svn rev 1235; added pcalls, pvalues

19:50 Raynes: clojurebot: earliest?

19:50 clojurebot: Gabh mo leithsc�al?

19:50 Raynes: ;o

19:51 ayrnieu: ,(-> 1235 range sort first)

19:51 clojurebot: 0

19:52 hiredman: Nice

19:55 ayrnieu: c.f. http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/lisp_problems_by_ruby.html

19:58 hiredman: I started working on a fn that would take something like (a b (c d)) and turn it into a block of (comp (partial a b) c)

19:59 technomancy: heh; xah lee.

19:59 hiredman: I forget why I stopped

20:00 ayrnieu: technomancy - he's better than the assholes who take him for a troll, but this isn't a shining post from him.

20:00 hiredman: clojurebot: the doctor?

20:00 clojurebot: No entiendo

20:00 hiredman: clojurebot: the doctor is out

20:00 clojurebot: Alles klar

20:01 technomancy: ayrnieu: he was definitely a troll when he frequented the #emacs channel but luckily I haven't heard from him since '05 or so; he could have reformed his ways since then

20:02 ayrnieu: technomancy - no, he definitely was not a troll; #emacs just went bat fucking insane, all on their own, all in *anticipation* of trolling.

20:03 technomancy: you can't use the word "fuckfaces" without provocation twice in the same sentence without being a troll.

20:03 it doesn't work like that.

20:04 ayrnieu: I feel dirty even for using this worthless terminology. Xah Lee's kind of a dork, but the people who react to him are contemptible.

20:05 * technomancy feels ok dropping this topic

20:05 ayrnieu: but the point is, clojure cuts through some of the initial counter-arguments that someone would make to "what? Just use ->"

20:14 cemerick: hiredman, Chouser: found the cause of my gen-class-not-generating-classfile issue -- I omitted a tilde ahead of the value for the :name in the gen-class spec, so the name was being given as com.snowtide.clojure.utils/fq-classname. Doh! :-|

20:17 rhickey: that particular *oops* was all my fault, but maybe the gen-class machinery should complain loudly when an invalid classname is provided (or, a classname that clojure doesn't know how to normalize). The slash in the name above was actually having the effect of generating a fq_classname.class file in the com/snowtide/clojure/utils dir.

20:24 rhickey: cemerick: I guess it shouldn't be normalizing, otherwise that behavior would be correct

20:25 cemerick: well, I was just talking about the dash-to-underscore translation, and whatever other transformations that are done to the classname

20:28 rhickey: cemerick: do you want munging or not? Because foo_bar is a valid classname

20:29 I guess I'm not understanding

20:30 or you want foo/bar-baz flagged as bad classname due to / ?

20:34 cemerick: sorry, yes, the slash is the problematic thing here, just because I think it's indicative of a maybe-semi-common programming error

21:34 Chouser: I want thread-local storage, but I don't want nested scopes to stack.

21:34 Is there something like binding-once

21:34 ?

21:35 schoppenhauer: !

21:38 Chouser: ThreadLocal will do, I think.

21:40 Raynes: ,(meta #'str)

21:40 clojurebot: {:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name str, :file "core.clj", :line 313, :arglists ([] [x] [x & ys]), :tag java.lang.String, :doc "With no args, returns the empty string. With one arg x, returns\n x.toString(). (str nil) returns the empty string. With more than\n one arg, returns the concatenation of the str values of the args."}

21:41 ayrnieu: Chouser, what would binding-once do?

21:42 Chouser: ayrnieu: establish a thread-local binding if this thread didn't have one yet

21:43 this would allow 'set!' to communicate up the call stack through multiple binding-once blocks, instead of stopping at the nearest enclosing 'binding' block.

21:43 but I'm not sure it would be any better than using the ThreadLocal class directly. That's what I'm trying now.

22:58 dreish: Anyone know a good way to make a library redefine a function (or in this case macro) in clojure.core?

23:00 I'd like to be able to (use 'util) or (:use util) and get my redefined version of ->

23:01 arohner: dreish: you can use binding, but that's scope local

23:01 dreish: Right, not really what I'm looking for.

23:02 Chouser: you can say (ns mylib (:refer-clojure :exclude (->)) (:use util))

23:02 dreish: I thought ns-unmap would do it, but it needs an ns arg, and what I really want is the ns of the namespace importing me.

23:02 Chouser: That's maybe not the worst thing, if it works. I was hoping for something I could put inside util, rather than forcing users to do something ugly.

23:03 Arguably it should be explicit if you're redeffing stuff from core, but my -> is essentially backward-compatible.

23:04 arohner: you can also do (in-ns 'clojure.core) (defn -> [] ...), but I didn't show you that

23:04 Chouser: heh

23:04 dreish: Ah, that's what I wanted. Thanks.

23:05 ayrnieu: (.doReset (var ->) (fn [& rst] (println rst))) (-> 1 2 3) => printed: (1 2 3)

23:05 Chouser: that changes it for everyone

23:05 dreish: Yeah, but everyone is just me.

23:05 And like I said, it's backward-compatible. It just adds usages that formerly would do nothing but die.

23:06 ayrnieu: what does it add?

23:06 dreish: #() fns without an extra set of parens, and maybe a little more dangerously, _ as a special symbol meaning "insert previous form here".

23:07 ayrnieu: use (.setMacro (var ->)) after you .doReset

23:07 dreish: I.e., (-> 2 (+ 2) (/ 3 _))

23:07 Chouser: mm, yeah, I've had that _ feature before.

23:08 dreish: user=> (map #(-> % name seq drop-last (apply str _) symbol) #{'AddObject. 'AskInv. 'Blob.})

23:08 (Blob AddObject AskInv)

23:08 stimuli: It could make your library break some else's lib if everyone starts doing it

23:08 dreish: Meh, I'll deal with it when it happns.

23:08 arohner: is there already a macro for (when (not (nil? foo)) foo) ?

23:08 I find myself writing that often

23:09 stimuli: that's what the ruby guys said ... look at the mess they now have

23:09 dreish: stimuli: True, nobody has ever done anything useful with ruby. :-P

23:09 Chouser: arohner: (when foo foo)

23:09 stimuli: :)

23:09 why not just call it --> or something ?

23:09 arohner: Chouser: yeah, but that depends on false == nil

23:09 dreish: That's probably how I'll deal with it.

23:10 stimuli: or fred

23:10 arohner: I'm not a huge fan of that

23:10 Chouser: oh

23:10 ayrnieu: (defmacro unless (test & body) `(when (not ~test) ~@body))

23:10 Chouser: that's never gonna change. Clojure's going to keep nil meaning false forever.

23:11 dreish: Lispers have been arguing about (if (not (nil? x))) for decades.

23:11 ayrnieu: of course that should be [test & body]

23:11 stimuli: so a couple of my coworker who are "java only" sort of guys want to learn Clojure

23:12 but I have no idea how they could learn it now give the available resources

23:12 arohner: I'm not expecting it to change, but I have situations in my code where they are not the same

23:12 stimuli: how did all of us learn it?

23:12 dreish: Programming Clojure.

23:12 stimuli: how much of that is done now ?

23:12 dreish: All but some typos.

23:12 stimuli: well ... I knew CL .. they don't

23:12 ayrnieu: stimuli - it's pretty helpful for Java. I used (filter #(.contains (val %) "32") (System/getProperties)) to answer a ##java question earlier.

23:13 arohner: yeah, I keep telling people clojure is a better java than java

23:13 stimuli: indeed

23:13 arohner: and Chouser's cool class introspection fns

23:14 stimuli: I think I'll buy learning clojure then

23:15 I had thought only a couple chapters were done

23:16 dreish: I think it's close to printing. They cut one chapter, and now there are none that say "this chapter is not yet written".

23:16 stimuli: cool

23:16 how would you rate it as a book ?

23:17 dreish: I thought it was perfect as a rapid introduction to the language.

23:17 stimuli: do you think it will work for the "I only know Java and C#" guys ?

23:18 dreish: Some of the stuff about getting set up with the environment I remember not liking, but I'm sure everything's changed a few times since I read it.

23:18 Chouser: stimuli: that's one of the key audiences

23:18 stimuli: that will change as teh eclipse and netbeans stuff matures

23:18 not everyone will use emacs :)

23:19 and I'm sure if I suggested to someone to install "slime" they'd look at me funny

23:19 arohner: for shame

23:19 hiredman: clojurebot: slime?

23:19 clojurebot: slime is icky

23:19 stimuli: slime is an emacs-lisp thingy

23:19 arohner: I really wish slime would become the defacto standard for clojure IDEs. static analysis of a dynamic language seems misguided at best

23:19 stimuli: with a debugger and stuff

23:19 hiredman: I am well aware

23:20 stimuli: well .. yeah

23:20 hiredman: given that #clojure turns into #emacs for a few hours a day

23:20 LordOfTheNoobs: stimuli: hiredman just likes playing with clojurebot

23:20 hiredman: it's actually kind of a drag

23:20 stimuli: dude ... if clojure on eclipse gets people to try it I'll sign on

23:21 hiredman: clojurebot: emacs?

23:21 clojurebot: "Learning Emacs and SLIME was just about the most painful computer experience I've ever been through."

23:21 c|p: lol

23:21 stimuli: poor poor clojurebot

23:21 arohner: I don't have a problem with them using eclipse, I just want them to use slime for the introspection/debugging stuff

23:21 * stimuli gives clojurebot a cookie

23:21 hiredman: that one comes up way too often

23:21 I really like "emacs is hard, lets go shopping!"

23:21 stimuli: I'm using one of the not-quite-slime emacs modes I d/l'ed

23:22 (don't ask me which one)

23:23 hiredman: ugh

23:23 my poor poor network

23:23 so much lag

23:25 Raynes: I use the netbeans plugin myself. I think it's fine. It's buggy as hell, but it works.

23:26 I use enclojure for Clojure and emacs for everything else.

23:56 hiredman: clojurebot: ping?

23:56 clojurebot: PONG!

23:56 hiredman: clojurebot: how much do you know?

23:56 clojurebot: I know 192 things

23:56 Cark: ~ping ?

23:56 clojurebot: PONG!

23:57 Cark: he's not that smart !

23:57 how about the whole doc thing

23:57 ayrnieu: he doesn't even get confused by considering that "I know 192 things" is also something he knows.

23:57 Cark: that should boost his knowledge a little bit

23:58 hiredman: svn rev 1155

23:58 clojurebot: well?

23:58 clojurebot: No entiendo

23:59 hiredman: svn rev 1251

23:59 oh

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