12:02 Chouser: rhickey: I added my first file to clojure-contrib. Before I announce it in the group, did you want to peek at it at all?
12:03 rhickey: sure, one sec
12:03 Chouser: no rush.
12:05 rhickey: neat - want to put a CPL.TXT in the directory?
12:06 Chouser: sure
12:06 rhickey: thanks
12:06 Chouser: done
12:07 rhickey: great! when I get time I'll put the ants and the spell demos in there
12:07 Chouser: sufficiently idomatic? Worth having it in contrib at all?
12:08 rhickey: sure
12:08 Chouser: oh, ok -- perhaps I'll hold off mentioning it in the group until you've add more stuff?
12:09 rhickey: no, go ahead - the things I have are already available
12:11 new glitch-free audio of the concurrency talk is up, for those that haven't yet suffered through the first version :)
12:12 Chouser: I got a call last night from a friend who, after listening to the talk and writing some clojure code, just wanted to call and "gush about Clojure".
12:13 rhickey: fun
12:13 Chouser: yep, that was the general conclusion. Writing Clojure code is fun.
12:14 rhickey: I had to write Clojure in order to keep programming fun for myself
12:20 cgrand: Hi! I've got a bug: (macroexpand '(and 2)) throws an exception
12:20 (expanded form is not checked to be a seq before the recursive call)
13:31 Chouser: any reason the symbol lists passed to refer are lists instead of vectors?
13:36 rhickey: Chouser: I don't think they have to be lists
13:37 quoted vectors seem weird to me
13:45 cgrand: fixed, thanks
13:47 cgrand: thanks! any reason for macroexpand not using recur?
13:48 rhickey: no, probably left over from when it was a macro
13:48 hopefully no one will blow stack with macroexpand :)
13:49 cgrand: I did (macros are new to me...)
13:50 Chouser: oh. yeah. How was I thinking that vectors were quoted already? Well, nevermind then.
13:50 rhickey: cgrand: would have been an infinite loop otherwise
13:51 Chouser: that's the trick, they are not quoted, they are evaluated
13:51 but you want the symbols, not their values
13:52 Chouser: right. right. I mean I clearly am using them correctly in several places, but somehow slipped a gear just now.
13:53 [...] is like (list ...) not like '(...)
13:53 rhickey: right
13:53 Chouser: and '[...] would seem, as you said, weird.
13:54 rhickey: '(a b c) for a list of symbols is an idiom
13:54 Chouser: have you looked at webjure much?
13:55 rhickey: not since it first came out
13:55 now you can do most of that in Clojure itself, given proxy
13:55 Chouser: It's got a syntax for inlining html, which I didn't know when I wrote my own. So now I'm comparing...
13:57 Chouser: it uses backquoted lists, ~, and ~@, while I just used nested vectors. I'm having a hard time seeing which is better.
13:58 does webjure's use of backquotes somehow move some of the work to compile time and result in better runtime performance?
13:59 rhickey: I'd like to see html gen, servlets, and url dispatch as separate libs
13:59 Chouser: my html gen is tiny
13:59 One 15 line function
14:00 rhickey: macros are all compile time, syntax quote doesn't have particularly small output, non-optimized at present
14:01 ok. I guess I need to look closer at what "defh" does, but it seems to me it's still got to insert values into that tree at runtime, and translate the tree to HTML after that, so I don't see that it can be doing a whole lot at compile time.
14:11 I wonder if it's using `() just so that you can expand lists in-place using ~@
15:42 abrooks: Chouser,rhickey: Should "coll?" (in zip-filter.clj) be added to boot.clj?
15:44 rhickey: probably, plus a few other of the tag interfaces, Sequential, Reversible etc
15:45 all should have predicates
16:58 Chouser: I don't know much about Java web servers and servlets. It looks like a web server expects to find a .class file for each servlet?
16:58 That seems like a poor fit for Clojure.
17:00 webjure seems to solve this by providing a single servlet and .class file itself, and then starting up clojure within itself, and loading .clj files from there.
17:20 rhickey: Chouser: yes, but I'm not sure it does the minimum in Java, maybe it does...
17:23 Chouser: Is it even possible to generate a class file from clojure code?
17:24 rhickey: not right now, possibly never
17:24 Chouser: ok that's what I thought. Not something I really want.
17:24 ...except that it seems to be required for Java Servlets, although I don't really want those either.
17:25 rhickey: I like servlets, I think it will be good for Clojure to do web apps that way
17:25 Chouser: oh
17:26 rhickey: they take care of the boilerplate, no?
17:26 lots of server choices
17:26 Chouser: there are lots of ways to take care of the boilerplate
17:27 I have very little experience with servlets, so you should put too much weight on my opinion.
17:27 requiring a .class file to load them seems a little awkward, even if it wasn't for the mismatch with Clojure.
17:28 rhickey: that's a one-time stub
17:28 Chouser: There are lots of server apps that do servlets, but there are lots of low-cost hosting services which do not.
17:28 rhickey: I think that will change now that Java is open source, not sure how long it will take
17:29 Chouser: Hm. Ok.
17:30 Well, it may be beside the point. If there's something that provides the interface between the Java Servlet environment and the Clojure environment (like webjure does), that interface can be documented and provided by other mechanisms.
17:31 rhickey: kind of, but you'd have to abstract the streams, the parameters, cookies, session state, authentication etc, all of which comes with servlet containers